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This is How India is Leading the Charge to Electrification with Chaitanya Kanuri
01:06:30
In this week's podcast Robert talks to Chaitanya Kanuri from WRI India about India's transition to electrification! From EV adoption to the charging infrastructure and how India is now the biggest electric 3-wheeler market in the world!
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- [00:00]
Robert Llewellyn
Hello and welcome to another really, really, really exciting episode of the Fully Charged Show Podcast. We have focused a lot in the time we've been doing this on the development of electric vehicles in Europe, in the United States, in Australia, China, South Korea, lots and lots of different places, Japan, so loads of different places. I'm not going to be remembering other places we've talked about, but quite specifically we've done next to zero about India. And I really wanted to rectify that because what is happening in India is noticeable. It's having an impact on the global stage. And I just thought it was really important to try and find someone in India. And I found this extraordinary woman, and I'm going to say her name correctly now, Chetanya Kanuri, who works for the WRI India, which is the World Resources Institute. And so she studies how cities operate, how they can be changed, and in particular, thankfully, the ground transport systems and how they are changing and adapting. And just one little figure just before we start today in India, there will be around 5,700 electric vehicles sales per day, 365 days a year. That's the kind of change that we're seeing in India. That and what we're talking about when I say electric vehicles, there's generally two and three wheelers. That's the vast majority of ground transport that people use, as opposed to public transport, as in buses and trucks and things. That's the vast majority of what is being taken up. And it has had an impact. So not just India on its own, but India, Southeast Asia, China. The explosion in two and three wheeled electric vehicles has resulted in. So we're looking at now a total global fleet in terms of electric vehicles, over 400 million vehicles. And that has had an impact on fuel sales, on liquid fuel sales of 1% globally, a 1% reduction. That's not to do with a pandemic or a war or social disruption or anything else. It's to do with demand drop. The demand drop is of that scale. So 1%, you think that's tiny. That is hundreds of billions of barrels of oil that aren't being burnt. So there is the scintilla of a change coming, coming towards us, which is, I think, fascinating, challenging, exciting. Please do tell your friends to subscribe to the Fully Charged show podcast. Because of the, the kind of quality of guests we're getting on this show is phenomenal. We've got lots of exciting new ideas for the podcast coming up in the next, the next year, really. Please tell your friends about it as well. And please Now, I won't say any more because this conversation I sure you will find is fascinating. Please welcome to the Fully Charged show podcast Chetanya Kanuri. This episode of the Fully Charged podcast is brought to you by OVO's Charge Anywhere. Charge Anywhere helps you power your car well wherever you are. Plan your route and pay. You'll have access to over 34,000 chargers across the UK's largest charging networks and more than 400,000 chargers across Europe. Setup is easy. Just download the OVO Charge app, create your account, add payment details, hit the road and start charging. There's no need to be an OVO customer. Either simply pay as you go or benefit from up to 15% off your charging with monthly boost packages. Ovos Charge Anywhere Power your next journey with peace of mind. So this has been a long time coming for me. I've wanted to do this for a long time, Chetanya. But thank you so much for taking time today to talk to us because I think this is an area we've neglected in our show pretty much completely. We've covered some Indian built electric vehicles over the years that have come to this country. You know, we've, and I've talked to some Indian engineers I think over the years, but really we've skimmed the surface of what is. Well, I've just looked it up. The fourth largest economy in the world and the third largest greenhouse gas emitter and the fourth largest electricity consumer. So that's India in a nutshell.
- [04:31]
Chetanya Kanuri
Absolutely.
- [04:32]
Robert Llewellyn
Forget the thousands of years of culture, the British Raj, forget all that. That's what's happening now. But the. But what? It's just recently I started seeing more and more stories about how many electric vehicles there are in the world. And then when you break it down you go, oh, there's not many cars, but my goodness, there's a lot of bikes, mopeds, three wheelers, you know, e rickshaws, all that stuff. So. And I don't know how I came across you, but I'm so glad I did. You're the person. I want to talk to you about this, but can you, after my ludicrously unfocused waffle, can you just give us a quick breakdown of your story and what you're doing now and how you got there? I think that really does help because the WRI is a fascinating organization. But can you explain all those bits?
- [05:24]
Chetanya Kanuri
Sure, sure. So, yeah, I'm Chet Daniel. I am urban policy analyst by training, many years ago and as such I have since in the past 10 years, sort of moved towards the transport sector. And I was working in sustainable transport for about three, four years after my master's. And then I started getting into electric mobility. I mean, around 2018, 19, that was where India was heading in terms of its transport systems. And India was also looking at strengthening their sustainable development goals and starting to think about their climate mitigation pathways. And electric mobility came up as one of the key pathways for the transport sector, which again, in a developing country like India is actually very fast growing in terms of emissions, in terms of just transport demand, both for passenger and goods vehicles. And so given the increase in demand and its, and how important it is for economic growth, how do you still ensure that you're decoupling this economic growth from the climate and environmental impacts? And so therefore transport, electric mobility was one of those pathways that was established as one of India's pathways for decarbonizing their transport system. So I was with WRI India at that time and we went into it in a deep way. And since then we've been working with national governments, state governments to actually start working on supporting them to start accelerating their transport electrification.
- [07:18]
Robert Llewellyn
Right. And I mean that. So the WRI is the World Research.
- [07:23]
Chetanya Kanuri
Institute, World Resources Institute.
- [07:25]
Robert Llewellyn
Resources. Resources, sorry, World Resources Institute, which is a global organization. I mean, there are, there are different departments all around the world. But you specifically, you are WRI India. Yeah. So that's the. And that, so that's what, that's your. Effectively your day job is working with them.
- [07:43]
Chetanya Kanuri
Absolutely. And I mean, yeah, so WRI is global, but several country offices also function completely independently in country.
- [07:51]
Robert Llewellyn
Right.
- [07:51]
Chetanya Kanuri
So WRI India is completely Indian and it is, is a registered organization. We work closely with our global counterparts to exchange best practices and to bring any knowledge exchange and all as may be needed, but we work very closely with the local stakeholders in India at the state and national levels, like I was saying.
- [08:12]
Robert Llewellyn
Right. And I mean, one of the things that I think is probably important to think about for our listeners is I think we're relatively protected from the more extremes of climate change that we're experiencing around the world. In this country, we're a damp island in the edge of the Atlantic. Although we've had in the last couple of years the hottest two days we've ever had in this country, ever in its history. So it's not that it's not here we are definitely experiencing, but I get a fairly strong feeling that there are quite dramatic noticeable shifts in climate and particularly for high temperatures in India. I mean, is that something that is kind of the general public are going, hang on a minute, it's hotter than it was when I was a kid, definitely. Right.
- [09:01]
Chetanya Kanuri
So I think both in terms of temperature and the predictability of the monsoon, monsoon becomes vital for agriculture, which again is a very important sector for India's economy. And the number of people and households that are dependent on it as well is significantly higher than say in western nations. And so the fact that the monsoon isn't as predictable, its patterns are changing. And so you can't really look at rain fed agriculture, which still is large parts of the country. That's one. And there's also of course the air pollution issue in all Indian cities. A lot of Indian cities are actually at the top of the list in terms of the most polluted when it comes to air pollution in the world. And so that is definitely something that everyone is noticing. It is impact. Like people are literally voting with their feet. I've heard of many colleagues who have either chosen to move out of Delhi, which is probably like one of the worst impacted by poor air quality. So it is impacting lives. People are definitely, I think, cognizant of that. And yeah, I think climate change is definitely something in the minds of most educated Indians. And you know, those who have livelihoods like others, they're probably more like poverty issues and all for them to focus on.
- [10:29]
Robert Llewellyn
But yeah, yeah, yeah, but I mean that is, I mean it's intriguing that that's a kind of driving force, it feels like, and I mean, I'm saying this from what I've observed very casually from outside and what I've read, but that that's a quite a strong driving force. You know, that if you're a relatively poor person that lives in a big city and you can use an old two stroke motorbike, you know, which leaves a trail of smoke, or you can use an electric scooter, you know, if you have the ability to do that, the difference in the improvement in your life is pretty instant and noticeable.
- [11:06]
Chetanya Kanuri
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And, but the question is, do they have the means to make that shift? A lot of times it is necessity because of which sort of they're running these very old vehicles on the roads.
- [11:21]
Robert Llewellyn
But I mean, so that, so what we have seen though is a really large increase. I mean, have you got some figures of, you know, the kind of numbers of electric vehicles on the roads now in the broadest sense of the term.
- [11:33]
Chetanya Kanuri
Is, I mean, yeah, I sort of looked those up in preparation for this because numbers are changing so rapidly month on month. So I Think as of financial year 2024, which ends in March 2024 in India, we have about 4 million EVs registered overall over the past two years. And just in the last one year we had about 1.7 million EVs that were registered and 55 in one year.
- [12:06]
Robert Llewellyn
Wow.
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Chetanya Kanuri
Yeah, in just one year. So 1.7 million. But then again, we do have about 25 million vehicles being registered every year.
- [12:15]
Robert Llewellyn
Right, okay. But it's actually that's still quite a big chunk though. That's much bigger than here.
- [12:20]
Chetanya Kanuri
Exactly. We went over 5%. I think we were somewhere close to 6 or 7% in the last year. So it is definitely moving from very, very early adopters and enthusiasts to becoming a little more mainstream, for sure. And that growth is primarily being driven by two wheelers and three wheelers. So you have about 55% of that 1.7 million is two wheelers and another 35% is street wheelers. So like 90% of the total EV registrations in the past year were two wheelers and three wheelers.
- [12:52]
Robert Llewellyn
Right. And that is, I mean that is just mind boggling because it is also the thing that immediately springs to mind is how do you charge them all? You know, that's, you know, I mean, it's only because I have spent a limited amount of time in Mumbai, so I've sort of lived on, seen the streets and you go, you know, even at that time when I was there, I was thinking, how would you charge a car here? You know, just it. To an outsider it looks like, ah, you know, it's just overwhelming. But wonderful. I don't mean that as a criticism. I absolutely loved it. But I mean, is that, is there now provision for charging? And I mean, presumably many people can charge at their homes, but I'm sure many can't in cities.
- [13:33]
Chetanya Kanuri
Yeah. So again, it depends on the vehicle segments we're talking about. And if we're talking about two wheelers and three wheelers, two wheelers primarily are charged at home today because most people do have that facility, whoever is purchasing them. Right. Now, again, you have to divide these segments further because there's a segment of two wheelers that are being purchased and designed for commercial purposes, for delivery purposes, given that the number of hyper local deliveries and all are growing because of, you know, your, your fast commerce and all of that that's happening, which is also happening in Indian cities. There's a lot more like food delivery, grocery delivery, all of that on demand happening within your houses. So there's a lot more of the Delivery demand coming up. And so because EVs were also coming up at that time, a lot of electric two wheelers were designed for delivery. So that's like a completely different model that's only sold for commercial purposes. And then you of course have your personal two wheelers for anyone who's going to be using it for personal mobility. So for the latter, the ones that are like more personal vehicles, I don't think there's a major charging problem because people charge at home. And today what's primarily happening is they set up either like just a 3.3 kilowatt regular three pin plug connection or an industrial version of that socket connection in order to charge their two wheeler because these are relatively small batteries, right? Like 2 kilowatt hour to 4 kilowatt hours. So that's not a problem. And you don't really even need to increase the connected load of your household connection typically because they just sort of connect it to your meter even in an apartment. So that's not a problem for three wheelers. And for commercial vehicles, what we've seen is charging hubs sort of popping up. And this is especially prevalent in the case of E rickshaws. And we will need to go into E rickshaws just so that we can explain what they are, what kind of beasts they are. But for those like you have these like large charging yards in a way where people can park and charge their vehicles overnight because again, a lot of the drivers are lower income folks who may not have access to parking near their homes as well.
- [15:57]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah, yeah. I mean it's very. Actually I'm trying to, I'm saving up for the E rickshaws because they're, they're so fascinating. But that, but, but I mean the, the, one of the figures I have is that this year there's around 5700 EV, so mainly scooters and three wheelers sold every day, which is in India, which is, you know, the figure, the actual figures are mind boggling. I mean they really are. So, and now, I mean an important part of that is where are those vehicles made? I mean, are they, are they mainly made in India? Is that, is that the main source of them?
- [16:36]
Chetanya Kanuri
Yeah, I mean. So actually every model of two wheeler and three wheeler that is sold in India is made in India. Right.
- [16:43]
Robert Llewellyn
Wow.
- [16:44]
Chetanya Kanuri
But like it's either again there's different levels of indigenization or localization as you would call it in the supply chain. So actually one of the, so the Indian government has been very sort of bullish on trying to make manufacturing localized and bringing more value addition to the manufacturing industry in India. So even the incentive schemes that were designed for EVs so there's a very big scheme called FAME. The faster adoption. It's a mouthful. Faster adoption and manufacturing of electric and hybrid vehicles scheme. They also pop off a few words in there to make it nice and pity fame. Right. But so this, so like the first version of that scheme came out in 2015 and the second version which was a relatively smaller amount and the second version came out in 2019 and that was 10,000 crores. And I have looked at what Indian rupees, 10,000 crores. And I had also done the math on what that was. That is about 900 million pounds. Okay, right.
- [17:57]
Robert Llewellyn
A lot of money. Okay.
- [17:58]
Chetanya Kanuri
So, so this was a scheme for financial incentives, upfront purchase incentives for electric vehicles and for charging infrastructure which was applicable from 2019 to 2024. So it just sort of ended very recently. And one of the prerequisites of being eligible to get the incentive was that that vehicle had to have at least 50% local components, locally manufactured components. So that way there is a push where anything that is trying to be incentivized or prioritized does have to have very strong local manufacturing linkages. But then of course the batteries, the motors are still at least cells are imported today. Maybe the sort of chips and semiconductors for the motors are imported today, even if not the whole battery pack. So there's a lot of local pack assembly happening, but not cell assembly. Right, so yes, well, and then again certain vehicle segments though, especially the lower cost vehicle options among them, are almost wholesale, imported and assembled.
- [19:07]
Robert Llewellyn
Right, I see.
- [19:08]
Chetanya Kanuri
So you have a wide variation. But I would say the majority of vehicles are all made in India and like most of the good OEMs are manufacturing in India and like with a large part of local components.
- [19:23]
Robert Llewellyn
But I mean, then we've got to go on to e rickshaws because I've found a couple of articles in Indian newspapers about local companies that have kind of are building e rickshaws very much because the big OEMs generally don't. I mean it seems to be, it's smaller manufacturers that make those. So can we just, can you just for the complete ignoramus, can you explain what a rickshaw is? Because I mean I, I had a ride in one in Mumbai and I think the gentleman who was incredibly fit was pedaling. He was, he wasn't electrically assisted. It was an old, it looked like an old one.
- [20:02]
Chetanya Kanuri
Yeah, yeah. There are now that was a cycle rickshaw, right?
- [20:06]
Robert Llewellyn
Yes, yeah, yeah, so, so that's a cycle rickshaw. So there have been. Have there. Been there? Yeah, motorized rickshaws, I. E. With a combustion engine, which is. I did see lots of those.
- [20:17]
Chetanya Kanuri
So I mean, just before getting into Ericshas, I also want to say that the EV ecosystem kind of did provide the opportunity for a lot of new companies to come up, new local companies to come up. It's not just in the E rickshaw space, but also the like more formalized cargo three wheeler space. And in the two wheeler space there are a bunch of companies today that actually are in the top sales of these segments and they are startups. I mean they were essentially startups. So I mean that was another, I think interesting element of the EV transition that sort of just, I mean it's still a very nascent transition, but it gave the opportunity to really shake up the auto market which is typically like governed by these big legacy OEMs that have been around forever. Right. And in the, and in the car space I would say that still holds. It's still the bigger guys that are making the transition and keeping the market. But two wheeler, three wheeler even, I mean in the bus space for example, you've got a lot of new companies coming. So.
- [21:30]
Robert Llewellyn
All right.
- [21:31]
Chetanya Kanuri
Yeah. So in two wheels. So given that we're focusing on two wheelers and three wheelers and two wheelers you have like Ola Electric Ether Energy which are again like, which were sort of pioneering the ecosystem and they started releasing or launching EVs before the legacy guys kind of got on board and they're like, oh wait, this is going to be a thing so we should put out our own models. So they were a bit laggard but now they're of course catching up and they're in the top market market segment players right now. But yeah, so just. Yeah, I wanted to emphasize that local companies, new ones coming up is not an E rickshaw phenomenon only, but just we have seen it across multiple segments.
- [22:13]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah. Which is, I mean that's great for the Indian economy and I mean that you're making those.
- [22:18]
Chetanya Kanuri
Yeah.
- [22:19]
Robert Llewellyn
In your own country is really important.
- [22:21]
Chetanya Kanuri
Yeah, yeah. I mean, and they all have grand export ambitions as well and we are starting to see some movement on that. So we'll see where that goes. I would say still very early days for that. But they, they are all seeing this as an opportunity coming to Ekshas.
- [22:36]
Robert Llewellyn
Yes.
- [22:38]
Chetanya Kanuri
Okay. So. So the reason it becomes important to distinguish it what Ericshas are is because we Talk we keep hearing about how the three wheeler market in India is like electrifying rapidly. And it is like if you see of the total three wheeler sales in the last year about I think 55% were electric.
- [23:00]
Robert Llewellyn
Right.
- [23:00]
Chetanya Kanuri
So like the three wheeler segment is one that is 50 plus percent electrified already compared to 6% of or 7% of the overall EV ecosystem. Or even when you look at two wheelers, it's just about 5% today because even though they're big in number, it's just that 70% of the country is two wheelers. So, so, so it'll take time to sort of for that to I think penetrate deeper and faster. But in three wheelers we've seen this sort of rapid shift and that was largely because of Ericshas. And Ericshas are what I would call a native electric or born electric vehicle segment. They, they are not the tuk tuks that you had before, like the ones that are popularized that are your ICE internal combustion engine three wheeler vehicles that ferried passengers. They are not that. They are actually an electrified motorized alternative for the cycle rickshaws. So around 20, around 2010 when Delhi was hosting the Commonwealth Games, they wanted to provide a low emission, low cost mode of transport for visitors to also show that they were looking at the climate and sustainability. And that is when E rickshaws were introduced and now they've become this option for any. Rather than cycle rickshaws being the lowest cost form of shared mobility that is now being taken over by E rickshaws. How they're different is that they are lower powered and they have lower speeds. And so like they're like 25 kilometers per hour is the maximum they can go at and they have smaller motors basically. And a lot of them, I think about 90% are lead acid battery driven.
- [24:51]
Robert Llewellyn
Right. Wow.
- [24:52]
Chetanya Kanuri
So they're not lithium ion battery. And so that just makes them like I think half the cost of a typical electrified tuk tuk. I mean they're called, I'm going to call them E rickshaws and auto rickshaws. It's, it's similar. But so, but just quickly. Yeah, so just quickly.
- [25:14]
Robert Llewellyn
There are, there are electric versions of what I would recognize as a tuk tuk.
- [25:18]
Chetanya Kanuri
Yes, yes.
- [25:18]
Robert Llewellyn
Now, right, but that's a different, that's a different segment.
- [25:22]
Chetanya Kanuri
So if you look at the motor vehicle rules, E rickshaws are classified as L3 vehicles and the auto rickshaws are classified as L5 vehicles. And then. Yeah, so, so that's the distinction from a sort of technical point of view. And then specifications wise, of course, like I was saying, different battery chemistries, lower power, they're supposed to have lower motor power also their motor power is also capped, etc. And so, yeah, they just end up being much, much more affordable for drivers. And they also, since they can maximum go at 25 km per hour and they're very sort of lightweight vehicles without much suspension or anything. So they're not necessarily very comfortable for going over long distance distances. So actually they've been increasingly used as a form of last mile or short mobility in cities. And they've exploded basically just because they're affordable. They're easy entry point into livelihoods for a lot of unemployed youth that are coming from rural areas to cities to make a living. A lot of people invested in them and then rent them out to drivers who then drive them and make their livelihood because of all these reasons. I think just last year again about 500,000 E rickshaws were registered. Yeah, and the other important thing about Erikshas is they started before regulations could catch up with them. They were introduced on roads and then in 2015 their definition was inserted into the Motor Vehicle act and motor vehicle rules and their certification processes came up around that time. So you have a large informal segment in this sector. So a lot, I think about 70% of them are not registered. That number that gets registered is growing year on year, thankfully, because governments are also taking note and sort of pushing people to register vehicles and only buy certified vehicles. But, but for example, you have like some 450 manufacturers of Ericshas, a large number of whom are just assemblers, like they import kits and they just assemble them and then they sell them. And so they may not even be certified. And if they're not certified, of course they can't get registered. Right. So there is that issue as well with the sector, despite its incredible affordableness and its impacts, like on affordability for consumers as well. So they're like half the cost of an auto rickshaw if you want to like take a two kilometer trip for a consumer.
- [28:11]
Robert Llewellyn
And that is a big, that's huge, isn't it? Yeah. So they're much cheaper to hire as a, as a passenger.
- [28:16]
Chetanya Kanuri
Yeah, exactly. And I mean, so basically it's sort of seen as an, as a homegrown innovation which exploded organically without, even without much incentive support, frankly. But now there is an increasing recognition that there actually is an oversupply in many cities. And so how do you start curbing those? Because so far there were no permit caps on how many need to be there.
- [28:42]
Robert Llewellyn
Right.
- [28:43]
Chetanya Kanuri
Like there were in the auto rickshaw segment. The auto rickshaw segment was always heavily regulated.
- [28:47]
Robert Llewellyn
Right.
- [28:48]
Chetanya Kanuri
And by sort of contrast, E rickshaw sort of just kind of did the. Some ninja like growth without, without really being observed. And then by the time people sort of started taking stock it's like, okay, now let's do something about this.
- [29:01]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah. Because I mean, presumably you could reach a point where a street is so jammed full of E rickshaws you can't go anywhere anyway.
- [29:08]
Chetanya Kanuri
I think there are examples of those streets in some cities for sure.
- [29:13]
Robert Llewellyn
But that is, but I mean that's a really fascinating way that effectively a new technology has an enormous impact. It's got nothing to do with government regulation or incentives or encouraging. It's just gone, oh, this stuff works. Yeah, I'll use it. It's as simple as that. It's a, I mean that's why in a way it's a fascinating.
- [29:34]
Chetanya Kanuri
It is and it speaks to it like there's this word in it's, it's called jugad, which is called frugal innovation. Basically it's.
- [29:45]
Robert Llewellyn
Right.
- [29:45]
Chetanya Kanuri
It's seen as a very Indian thing that you sort of manage, make, do, engineer and sort of make it work. And I mean, I think like E rickshaws have been presented as a big example of that. And even today you start, you see variants where it's like, okay, this road is too narrow for a typical E rickshaw. I'm going to make one that's narrower body. I'm going to sort of rejigger will fit there. Yeah, yeah. So like you see these sort of very localized solutions coming up and there's that flexibility as well. So yes, it's definitely an example of that.
- [30:19]
Robert Llewellyn
But I mean that had, I mean that has had, you know, in certain circles, I mean that, that approach has had an enormous impact in this country. I mean I was very aware even as a very young man of it was, it was often described as low impact technology, but it was all rickshaw based. It was from India, it was from I think basically English hippies who went to India in the 1960s and 70s and went, wow, man, far out. I want to, I want a rickshaw. So in Oxford there was a group of people who were trying to say, let's not have cars in city, let's use something that, you know. And that's the first time I rode a rickshaw I pedaled. It was in Oxford in about 1975. So that's a bit of personal history. There. But I mean it is the, I mean it is the kind of that attitude I think is just wonderful and it's kind of what the whole world should do. But we're not, you know, because we want really flash, you know, high end big SUVs. I mean, is there. Because I know we. I don't want to lock in entirely to two and three wheels, although that's obviously. But I mean, is there an increase in not necessarily luxury vehicles, but in electric cars, is there a noticeable increase in numbers? Because I don't remember seeing any when I was in Mumbai, which is probably.
- [31:41]
Chetanya Kanuri
Oh yeah, no, you wouldn't have seen. You said 2018 or something, right?
- [31:45]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah, yeah, I think it was even before that, maybe 2016, I can't quite remember.
- [31:48]
Chetanya Kanuri
No, you wouldn't have seen any then because I think the car markets also developed a lot actually.
- [31:55]
Robert Llewellyn
Right.
- [31:55]
Chetanya Kanuri
Like previous, like there was a first generation of electric cars which were again homegrown but had like low powered, they had low voltage batteries which was, which was basically unheard of. Right. Like they were really compact small cars with low voltage batteries which were primarily used for taxi purposes.
- [32:14]
Robert Llewellyn
Right.
- [32:15]
Chetanya Kanuri
And today you have a lot more models, definitely not as many as you do in the two wheeler space, for example. There's still one of the key barriers to more electric adoption in the four car space is actually that there are not necessarily enough models because like cars are segmented quite a bit. Right. Like SUVs and sedans and compact sedans and hatchbacks and everything. And so like mass market cars, cheaper cars for the affordable end of the market are still kind of not there as. Not there aren't as many as there should be, but there are a lot of luxury cars. And unfortunately India is also seeing that trend of a lot of SUVs coming into the market. Unfortunate for us sustainable transport folks, of course, everyone else is like, why, what's unfortunate about that?
- [33:07]
Robert Llewellyn
They're really cool, family loves them, everyone loves them.
- [33:10]
Chetanya Kanuri
Right. But just their fuel inefficiency and the amount of road space they take up. But yeah, I mean, again, because India has so many contrasts. You have a very sizable upper middle class population that actually is a huge market for these big luxury brands as well. Similar to how you see China. You have all the luxury brands that exist in China as well because there's such a huge market, even though it's maybe only 10% of the population.
- [33:41]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah, that's a big population.
- [33:43]
Chetanya Kanuri
Yeah, exactly. So India's the same and you do see a lot of luxury car brands and all coming in that are just targeting that market and you see a lot of luxury vehicles now and a lot of EVs as well. I would say there are a couple of companies that are doing a lot of good stuff in the E4 wheeler space. One is this company called Bluesmart which is doing electric taxis. So it was again a new fleet, a new company that came up with the electric vehicle boom. So it wasn't an Uber which was sort of pre existing and so it was aggregating cars but they were like, okay, we'll do taxi services but we will not have them be owned by the drivers. We will employ the drivers and we will run taxi services in a slightly more old fashioned way. Maybe we look at different sort of procurement models, we do leases, we do different sorts of those. But so, so they've also been doing some interesting stuff and they've been growing in multiple cities and, and there's again a lot of companies that are running only electric fleets for deliveries and everything. So yeah, you do see a lot.
- [34:51]
Robert Llewellyn
Of growing, growing sector. And also you did mention buses because I mean that's a, you know, critically important area that you know, in all cities. I mean we've got, thankfully we actually can say we have a lot of electric buses on our roads in the UK finally. But you know, and I think what's interesting with that is the often people even who ride on them, I mean why should they be interested? But they're not interested. But they don't know. I've talked to a lovely lady on a bus in London and I said, do you know this is an electric bus? And she went, oh is it? She said I use it every day. She hadn't noticed.
- [35:25]
Chetanya Kanuri
Yeah. And I mean I think, I think that's how it should be. Right. Like there is no difference in performance, there is no difference in like your quality of ride. If anything it would be an improvement because you know, they are replacing aged fleets.
- [35:40]
Robert Llewellyn
Yes.
- [35:41]
Chetanya Kanuri
But yes, there are a lot of buses and the IBA story in India is also, yes, something quite encouraging. The government has also supported that very strongly through the FAME schemes and through other schemes. So actually we started with a like relatively modest allocation during the FAME scheme. But since then the government has like set a target, which they're actually working towards quite actively of getting to 50,000 electric buses by 2030.
- [36:15]
Robert Llewellyn
Wow.
- [36:16]
Chetanya Kanuri
And this, it's, and it's so government driven right now because these are all the public bus systems that are electrifying. First. It's not your private bus operators today again because There are a lot of still financial issues and all that still need to be figured out in the bus space. Like who is fronting that level of finance for bus fleets. Right. And a lot of fleet operators, private fleet operators own like small numbers of buses, one to five buses. So how are they going to get good rates? How are they going to get. So like a lot of it is still happening contractually, like where the public bus companies give an order and then the bus buses start rolling out. But still, all of that aside, I think we have, I don't know the exact number for buses, but we have 5,000 plus buses in the country. And there's one city, particularly Delhi, which actually has about 1900 or 2000 buses at this point. So that's significant. And again, Delhi has been one of the most aggressive states on the electrification agenda because they do see it as one of the solutions for the air quality issue.
- [37:25]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah, yeah.
- [37:26]
Chetanya Kanuri
But, yeah, and, and, and so I think. And, and what's interesting is the electric buses are also sort of rejuvenating the interest in public transport.
- [37:37]
Robert Llewellyn
Right. Wow.
- [37:38]
Chetanya Kanuri
By the government. Which is, which is great because like maybe in the decade before this one, a lot of the focus, and it continues even today, a lot of the focus had started on metros because like Calcutta was one city which had a metro system since forever. But other than that, like the first metro rail that came up was in like 2002, 2003 in Delhi in India. And then since then you've got like 10 to 15 cities with metro systems. And so a lot of investments were going into the metros. And I mean, during that period, buses were not necessarily neglected, but the buses, the mode share of buses was dropping. More people were shifting to private transport. Transport, private vehicles. So there was, there were multiple forces at play, growing incomes and people also wanting to own a vehicle and all of that. But India actually had really healthy public transport motors, Indian cities, and those have been declining, which is a concern given that our cities are very dense, are very congested and should sort of be having the majority of their transport be public transport. Like, you know, you see some of these Southeast Asian cities and all doing. And so this interest, renewed interest in buses is very encouraging. And now the government is also trying to say that if we're bringing in new buses, let them be electric and we'll figure out how to make that happen. So that's great as well. And they have a current scheme where they're trying to get buses into e buses into 170 cities, some of which previously Never even had public transport systems. So. Great.
- [39:15]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah. I mean that. Well, yes, that's a wonderful thought that, you know, in a sense there are cities that will have skipped the negativity of having internal combustion engines. You know, it's slightly unrealistic, but you know, there is an element where if your first bus in your city is electric, you've kind of. You've lucked out. I mean, that's really good.
- [39:39]
Chetanya Kanuri
Yeah.
- [39:40]
Robert Llewellyn
One of the things that I wanted to mention because I know our viewers and listeners will be interested in is battery swapping because I think we've seen quite a lot of that reported, which is mainly, I think, Southeast Asia, as you mentioned, and in China there are very big schemes like that. But it does exist in India to a certain extent.
- [40:01]
Chetanya Kanuri
It does exist in India to a certain extent. It is largely prevalent in two wheelers and three wheelers. It was experimented with for buses. Like one bus agency in west India actually did try it, but I mean, they were piloting it to understand whether that's more viable as a model or, you know, just contracting bus services to a private operator is more viable. So they were testing two or three models of what sort of electric bus business model would make sense. So it was tested there, but today it is largely prevalent for two and three wheelers. It is largely only in like three or four metropolitan cities. I would say, like largely concentrated. And that's for a couple of reasons. So battery swapping is great in principle and because you're sort of taking the upfront cost of the battery out of the vehicle. Right?
- [40:54]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah.
- [40:55]
Chetanya Kanuri
And especially for commercial vehicles, that makes a lot of sense because again, it lowers that entry barrier for lower income people that are looking for vehicles for light livelihood purposes to actually purchase them. And those are the ones that have the highest utilization on roads as well.
- [41:12]
Robert Llewellyn
Right.
- [41:12]
Chetanya Kanuri
So for fleet operators or self owner drivers, for all of them, it just makes more sense that the vehicle cost comes down. But today battery swapping systems are kind of what you would call closed loop systems. So you have the battery swap operator and he makes partnerships with various OEMs, vehicle OEMs, saying that, you know, you use this model of battery in your vehicle and you know, I will set up the battery swapping stations for you.
- [41:43]
Robert Llewellyn
Right.
- [41:43]
Chetanya Kanuri
So there are no universal standards, basically. So it's not like anyone can enter and start battery swapping using the same standardized brick battery and any. And then it's not like anyone who's driving a battery swap vehicle can stop at any swapping station and swap their batteries. It would have to be that of that specific brand. And so that, that still does make sense for a lot of these commercial vehicle models. So you do have a lot of commercial vehicle operators that are using battery swapping, but as a result of this sort of limitation, it's not scaled up as much as it could. And the general consensus at least is that battery swapping for four wheelers like you're seeing in China may not, may not be something that takes off too much in India because those are very cost capital intensive. Yeah, like setting up. Yeah, that whole mechanical swapping infrastructure just really adds to the cost and it adds to the space requirement. One of the advantages of battery swapping today is that, you know, a lot of them are setting up in existing fuel stations.
- [42:51]
Robert Llewellyn
Right.
- [42:52]
Chetanya Kanuri
So so like they just need one corner and a space for two, three vehicles to line up and it just gets done in two minutes. Right. So that, that's its advantage for sure. So but again as faster charging keeps coming into the market and all, we do think it's probably going to be largely for commercial vehicles and smaller commercial vehicles. But yeah, so it is happening maybe in Bangalore and Delhi and it's also happening interestingly for Eric Shahs where after their first lead acid battery gets sort of finished, used, retired, which happens in about 12 to 18 months. Batteries, they don't last very long and especially if you don't maintain them well because you're supposed to sort of like refill the water and all of that, then they can get like destroyed in like nine months. And that's been a complaint. But once that, after that first battery life is done, what some E rickshaw operators are doing in cities like Delhi is battery swap guys are going to them, they're retrofitting their vehicle for an lib battery, a lithium ion battery. And then they're actually, then those E rickshaws become lithium ion battery operated and they sort of have that swap model and so they structure that whole business model so that these guys don't have to pay for that retrofitting, but it's sort of added into the cost of operation.
- [44:15]
Robert Llewellyn
Right. That is interesting. So that, that could be a very big market for it because I mean that solves a lot of the problems of, you know, low income people with a E rickshaw. Where do you leave it? How do I charge it? You know, you, well you go to the battery, you swap your batteries. It's not that.
- [44:29]
Chetanya Kanuri
Yeah, yeah. And, and, and it also sort of tackles the problem of informal lead acid battery recycling which is again a big Problem in. In parts of the country that could.
- [44:40]
Robert Llewellyn
That actual. The sentence structure defines the problem. Informal lead acid battery recycling.
- [44:46]
Chetanya Kanuri
Exactly.
- [44:48]
Robert Llewellyn
Good.
- [44:49]
Chetanya Kanuri
I mean. Yeah, it's so dangerous. It's got such adverse health benefit, like health impacts on the people that are, you know, engaged in it. It's just. Yes, yeah, but. But yet it continue. And it's like soil contamination, water contamination, and yet it continues to happen.
- [45:04]
Robert Llewellyn
Right. I mean, I think the important thing is I always want to. You know, I can't help saying this. I know it's a. It's a silly mantra, but it's very difficult to recycle gasoline or diesel. You know, you can recycle batteries, including that. I mean, lead acid batteries, you can recycle very effectively.
- [45:22]
Chetanya Kanuri
Exactly.
- [45:22]
Robert Llewellyn
But kind of correct environment, not sort of in someone's backyard with a hammer. Yeah, so good.
- [45:28]
Chetanya Kanuri
Exactly.
- [45:29]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah, yeah. Can we just briefly discuss the. Like the power generation, because that's the other stories that I see regularly is world's great biggest solar farm just opened in India. I mean, a huge. There's been a. It does sound like a really big growth in the installation of solar.
- [45:49]
Chetanya Kanuri
Yeah.
- [45:49]
Robert Llewellyn
But I mean, still, you. I think you are. I mean, I know from spending time in Australia that there's a lot of ships full of coal that leave Australia going to India. That is happening, but that it. What I can't quite get my head around is, for instance, in this country, the increase in demand for electricity is very small. With the advent we've now have over a million electric vehicles and there hasn't been this massive spike in demand because it's spreading it over the whole time. And we've had things like LED lights which have reduced electricity use in this country by an enormous amount. So there hasn't been this big spike. But I'm guessing that in India, if you saw the graph of the increased use of electricity in India, it would be quite. It would be in an upward direction.
- [46:36]
Chetanya Kanuri
Yeah, definitely. So electricity consumption is definitely growing. Electricity demand, like travel demand, is growing quite, quite quickly and yet. So it's a lot of contradictions to hold. But India is sort of doing everything simultaneously, I would say. So demand is growing because of course, like, energy access was actually not 100% until recently. I think now official figures show that almost all parts of the country have been connected to the grid, although, of course, the reliability of that grid may not be of the same level throughout the country, and there may still be some rural hamlets and all that are still not very efficient, effectively connected. So energy access was one thing that was sort of leading to demand because a lot of part of the country was just not connected and just didn't sort of have electricity demand on top of that, of course, growing incomes mean a growing number of appliances, and growing heat means an incredible number of air conditioners being sold. So all of this is. And of course, then industries being coming up and more manufacturing coming up. It is a growing economy. It is going to have growing electricity demand. At the same time, India has also committed to having, I think, 500 gigawatts of renewables by 2030 as part of their SDG commitments.
- [48:09]
Robert Llewellyn
Wow, 5, 500 gigawatts. That is just. Yeah, wow. Yeah, it's a lot.
- [48:16]
Chetanya Kanuri
It is a lot. And. But our grid today is still primarily not renewables. I think renewables are maybe 10, 12%. Again, I would have to be corrected on this, but I'm open to be corrected on this. But like, I think they're about 10, 12% max. You know, hydro and solar and everything combined. And a large part of our grid is sort of coal powered. And India is also like taking a very pragmatic stance that as we ramp up renewables, we are going to need to continue to use coal because we are at that stage of development where we need to also ensure that our quality of living rises and that because social growth, like socioeconomic growth is just as important for us as environmental sustainability. And we are at that stage because currently India. India has one of the highest emissions. Yes, but per capita emissions are far lower than global average.
- [49:15]
Robert Llewellyn
Way lower than United States.
- [49:17]
Chetanya Kanuri
Yeah, so.
- [49:18]
Robert Llewellyn
So, I mean, I think it's also worth pointing out that we quite happily burnt coal for 150 years in Europe without a second thought.
- [49:26]
Chetanya Kanuri
Yeah.
- [49:27]
Robert Llewellyn
You know, we didn't mind. And then we went, oh, maybe we shouldn't. And now. So we really are in no position to tell anyone else what to do. I think it's very.
- [49:34]
Chetanya Kanuri
Yeah, so, I mean, so. Yeah, that way. But then. But then again, because of the intermittent of your renewables as well, the country has also started this large battery electric storage systems, drive battery energy storage systems. So like your Bess systems again, are. Now, maybe that's only started in the last three, four years, I would say. But now there's a mission that is dedicated to actually increasing the setup of BESS plants so that they can start storing any excess renewable power and then sort of powering the grid later, which would sort of help. So, so the idea with the. Like again, the main, one of the main sort of pushbacks against evs, both which is both a sincere question but also sometimes used insidiously by like you know, the people that are not in support of EV is oh, you know, the grid is dirty. So how does that, you know, how is that useful? Like because you're still, you're kind of shipping your emissions elsewhere. But having said that, electric mobility is the, I mean is one of the pathways that I think the world is looking at globally.
- [50:47]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah.
- [50:48]
Chetanya Kanuri
And India, if it for economic purposes and for sort of ensuring that its climate commitments are met, needs to sort of ensure that they are on that from the beginning. And when I say for economic purposes because India actually has like I think 20% of its vehicles are equal exported. So if their export markets are electrifying they need to have that electric manufacturing, EV manufacturing capacity as well. Right. And at the same time our grid is expected to sort of get cleaner gradually as well. And so those benefits will start kicking in. You can't really wait for the grid to be fully clean and then start moving to electric. And then of course your tailpipe emissions are removed, which is also a significant benefit.
- [51:31]
Robert Llewellyn
I mean I think it's always important. That argument I, you know, I'm sure you're, you're aware of this I've heard for the last 15 years at least is, is, is just defines the fact that we are often ignorant of what energy use actually does. I mean for example, I know that you import a huge amount of oil of crude oil which you refine in India. Refining crude oil uses huge amounts.
- [51:57]
Chetanya Kanuri
Yeah.
- [51:57]
Robert Llewellyn
Just city level amounts of electricity and that's always ignored only ever measure what comes out of the tailpipe. Well that's, that's, that's nothing. Yeah, that brought it to you. And although anyway that argument we've gone over many times but it is, you know an electric E rickshaw that is running on electricity that's only made from coal is still hugely cleaner than any than a petrol driven.
- [52:23]
Chetanya Kanuri
Yeah.
- [52:25]
Robert Llewellyn
Very annoying that argument. That argument.
- [52:27]
Chetanya Kanuri
I think, yeah. I think we somehow like I know you've probably had this conversation a million times. I probably said it a million times. But like you still feel the need to reiterate it once in a while for every new context you come across. Because you're just like maybe they'll bring this up. So you kind of preface it with a disclaimer.
- [52:49]
Robert Llewellyn
Let me just check. Sorry, I'm just going through.
- [52:51]
Chetanya Kanuri
I mean you were talking about crude.
- [52:53]
Robert Llewellyn
Oil and yes, because it's 85% of your fuel is important. So that implies there are oil wells in India that are extra or within. Do you have some oil extraction in India? Because if you've got 85% of it's imported, where's the rest coming from?
- [53:12]
Chetanya Kanuri
Yeah, no, I think there is some. Again, I'm not sure about this, but I think there is some in like that was at least being. There must be some and there was some being explored off coast in near Mumbai and everything. So I think there is some exploration as well still going on. But yeah, I think apart from the environmental transport decarbonization aspect, energy security has been another major driver for electric mobility given how crude prices have just been. I mean they've always been on a roller coaster, I guess across, like across decades. But yeah, I think just given the increasingly uncertain geopolitics of the global ecosystem, I think energy security is definitely becoming one of those aspects, is one of the reasons that we're looking at electric mobility as well. And just like two and three wheelers, just the, just two and three wheelers I think are responsible for like about 20% of oil consumption or something in the transport sector. So just, you know, removing those off the road could significantly reduce our transport oil demand. And yeah, and like, so that.
- [54:32]
Robert Llewellyn
I think that argument goes across the political spectrum which is, and I think it's very important that everyone, I mean we understood finally in this country, we now know that the cost of electricity and heating our homes went up not because of renewables, not because of annoying wind turbines and solar panels, because of gas. That's why it happened. And everyone understands that and everyone accepts that's the reason. And I mean that would be, that would affect the Indian economy as well. And it is also, you know, when you buy coal from Australia, that money is leaving your economy and going to the Australian economy, even if it. Not in total amounts, it's not that big a percentage, but the same for oil. And I mean if you can make that in your own country, that does strike me as being a fairly, you know, very viable, sensible thing. It's employing people in your country and that, that money is circulating within your own economy. I mean it's not, you know, it's not, I don't know, I'm not an economist, I'm guessing, but that's, but then, so the cost of, say you're, you know, you're an E rickshaw driver and you. No, because the E rickshaw don't quite work. Let's go up one to the, to the. What were the one, what are they called, the ones that replace electric autos. Electric autos so you're riding, you're driving one of those, you're earning a living from it. Last week you were in a petrol one and you filled the tank. Is that per km, is it cheaper today grid prices to run it on electricity?
- [56:05]
Chetanya Kanuri
Much, much. So I think it's about like 1/5 the cost. And yeah, and it's the same for two wheelers as well. Like it's 1.5 rupees per kilometer if you look at the petrol cost and the, and like you can go about 60 to 65 kilometers per 11 liter in, in two wheelers. And so that's like, that works out to about 1.5, 1.6 rupees per km. And the same when you look at like electricity electric vehicle, 3 kilowatt hour battery gives you a range of say about 100 kilometers on two wheelers. And so there you have about 0.3 rupees because like I would say the cost of charging varies because it's a state led subject and different states have different tariffs and everything. But even if you assume like 10 rupees per unit of electricity then that still works out to 0.3 rupees per per km which is like yeah, about 1 5th or even less. And so operationally you can definitely see gains very quickly. And if you look at the total cost of ownership and total cost of ownership is the cost of the vehicle when you purchase it and its operating cost over its lifetime. Right. Even if you consider I think one a single battery replacement, which again as battery technology improves and battery longevity increases, that may not even be required over a 10 year lifecycle or something. For commercial vehicles there is no question about it because they all run close to 100 kilometers a day. But even if you're like running about 30, 40 kilometers a day as a two wheeler, like personal two wheeler owner, it's completely viable. However, while today a lot of people don't necessarily drive their two wheeler 30km kilometers a day, it's still very competitive. And I think more and more there are companies, the two wheeler companies are also introducing lower and lower cost two wheelers. So we do expect that like complete parity to be reached very soon. It's already been achieved for commercial operations.
- [58:05]
Robert Llewellyn
So commercial initial purchase parity. So when you're buying a new vehicle it will be the same as a petrol version, Is that, what is that?
- [58:12]
Chetanya Kanuri
No, I'm saying the total cost of ownership parity. Yes, initial purchase parity. There is still some time to go, I mean a little bit of time to, to go I would say, what are the costs right now? So like an ice two wheeler is about 75,000 rupees, which I think is.
- [58:31]
Robert Llewellyn
I haven't got my calculator here.
- [58:33]
Chetanya Kanuri
£900. 90. No, nine. Sorry, let me do that. I've done all this as well because I knew that.
- [58:40]
Robert Llewellyn
Well done.
- [58:44]
Chetanya Kanuri
Yeah. Like 6, 700, 680, £700.
- [58:52]
Robert Llewellyn
Like would be a light, a small scooter or a moped or a.
- [58:55]
Chetanya Kanuri
No, it is the entry, it's the entry cost of motorcycle. So like 100cc, 120cc motorcycle or like there are gearless scooters as well. So a lot of scooters are about 125cc. So those are your typical ones. Those are all around 75,000 rupees.
- [59:17]
Robert Llewellyn
Right. And so they're very cheap. Yes, they are. By. I mean, by our standards in the, in Europe, very much.
- [59:25]
Chetanya Kanuri
Yeah. I mean. Yeah, I'm guessing. Yeah, that's a. There's a difference in, I don't know, like purchasing power parity and all as well. But, but, but, but then an electric.
- [59:36]
Robert Llewellyn
One then would be.
- [59:37]
Chetanya Kanuri
An electric one then is about 33 to 66% more expensive. They start at 100,000 rupees, which is 900 pounds. And they can, like a bunch of them are actually more close to twelve hundred pounds, thirteen hundred pounds. So definitely there is some time to go in achieving price parity at the time of purchase. But if you have high utilization, it makes sense today economically. And a lot of people just also appreciate the fact that they're not. Their petrol prices, like, their fuel costs are not high in general, like, I think a lot. I have a lot of friends who have purchased EVs and they know that maybe if you look at it absolutely economically it doesn't make sense, but in their daily running they just have such low costs and maintenance costs are much lower and everything. So that way, I think if you're not buying it purely for economic reasons, it makes a lot of sense already. And for commercial purposes, it makes competitive sense over the life of the vehicle and for any fleet operator or a personal vehicle, a personal vehicle owner. And then you have to come into financing, of course, because you have to ensure financing is affordable and because they're like, initially financiers had higher interest rates for evs, it's still the case, actually. Because, I mean, because they're not sure about the technology, they're not sure about the second life value. Second life value is also a major problem even today in India.
- [61:08]
Robert Llewellyn
Right.
- [61:09]
Chetanya Kanuri
Because.
- [61:09]
Robert Llewellyn
Because that's Why I was gonna, I was gonna, I wanted to come onto that because we gotta wrap up fairly soon. Yeah. That the one of the big changes that we've seen here literally this year is the influx of huge number of secondhand electric vehicles. Cars.
- [61:24]
Chetanya Kanuri
What are they doing?
- [61:25]
Robert Llewellyn
Which have sold really well, but they are, have got, they've driven the price down. You know, the fact that there was a lot of them, it was mainly big corporate leasing companies, you know, they didn't release one or two cars, they released. Well, there's, there's 200,000 huge numbers and that meant the price dropped. But from a point of view of a consumer, people are buying really good secondhand cars that we now know will last a long time. They're not going to fold.
- [61:51]
Chetanya Kanuri
Yeah.
- [61:51]
Robert Llewellyn
And so I wondered if that same phenomena, maybe it hasn't happened yet in India, but, but, but you know, that, I mean, it's just from anecdotally, I never bought a new car. I didn't even know, I didn't even know people who bought new cars. None of my friends did. And it's only since electric cars have come out that I've had to consider the price of a new car, which is incredibly expensive.
- [62:15]
Chetanya Kanuri
Yeah.
- [62:17]
Robert Llewellyn
And I mean is, is there a second hand? Presumably there has been a very healthy secondhand market for petrol, two and three wheelers. So will there then be a secondhand market for electric ones?
- [62:31]
Chetanya Kanuri
There should be, but I think there's still some initial hiccups that need to be overcome. One is the fact that because you've had a lot of new companies, you've also had a lot of really small new companies come up in the two wheeler and three wheeler space. They don't have the after sales service, they don't have the ability to refurbish vehicles and resell vehicles. So financiers are tacking on that cost onto the interest rate because they're like, we don't know if this becomes a non performing asset, we don't know how, whether we can even resell it after sort of, you know, getting it. So, so, so that's one issue. The other issue, and the other thing is I think understanding how batteries are going to do in the Indian context will become important. There's two things, right? There's like the thermal aspect of, you know, operating at high temperatures and then there's also like your road, there's a lot more vibrations and all on Indian roads because their quality may be poorer, especially in smaller cities and everything. And so how that will impact the life of the battery and you know, at the time of sale what the remaining life on the battery is. How do you determine that in an effective manner? Yeah. And so like. And first generation batteries are also like seeing some issues of, you know, showing sudden SOC drops and everything. And I think those are getting. Those are definitely getting figured out by the big OEMs. But a combination of these factors is sort of saying, like leading to the fact that there is no clarity on what the residual value is. There are not enough vehicles to actually determine that market yet.
- [64:04]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah.
- [64:04]
Chetanya Kanuri
And so because of all of that, financing still remains a little more expensive for EVs. And it is something that is expected to sort of sort itself out in the next couple of years. But anything that can be done policy wise or, you know, de risking mechanisms wise should be and is something like, you know, organizations like ours and others are also looking at is, you know, how do you accelerate that?
- [64:29]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've gone over an hour, which was much too easy with. You are so brilliant. Thank you so much. This has been really. All I'm going to do for the rest of today is think of questions that I forgot to ask you about things. But I mean, that was really wonderful. Thank you so much. And well, you know, all. All power to you and to the. I mean, I think the world genuinely has a lot to learn from India, always has done historically and should carry on doing it now because, I mean, I think because you work through really big challenges. You know, the huge population and enormous cities that have. I mean, I think that aspect is something we probably don't understand here is the number. You did mention it. The number of people who are leaving the countryside and going into cities. I mean, that happened here 150 years ago. So we've kind of got you. But, you know, now all that happens is people are leaving cities and moving back to the country like I did.
- [65:28]
Chetanya Kanuri
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [65:30]
Robert Llewellyn
So that'll happen.
- [65:30]
Chetanya Kanuri
Yeah. India's still only like 35, 40% urban, I think. And India still only has like 35 cars per 1,000 people compared to like 800 or 900 in your, you know, US, Germany, countries like that. So just. Yeah. A lot of its development indicators are very different. And so there's opportunities for leapfrogging, but there's also like massive scale challenges to get clean transitions in place.
- [65:56]
Robert Llewellyn
It's been a real, A real joy to talk to talk to you. Thank you so much today. That's been really fascinating. And that's it. Thank you.
- [66:07]
Chetanya Kanuri
Thank you, Robert.
- [66:08]
Robert Llewellyn
Well, I really hope you enjoyed that. It was what an absolute joy to talk to Chetanya. She's such a delight. That's all. Please do as I said. Give us a subscription, tell your friends, and we look forward to seeing you again next week with another fabulous episode of the Fully Charged show podcast. But until then, thank you for listening and watching. If you have been.