Toyota Triumphs? Trump Tariff Turmoil! Tesla's Trialing Time?

Summary

The Fully Charged Podcast: "Toyota Triumphs? Trump Tariff Turmoil! Tesla's Trialing Time?"

Release Date: April 14, 2025
Host: The Fully Charged Show (Robert Llewellyn)

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1. Introduction and Recent Events

The episode kicks off with a brief mention of an upcoming show in London, reflecting on the success of recent events held globally. Host Robert Llewellyn and guest Dan Caesar reminisce about the "Everything Electric" event in Sydney, highlighting it as a "watershed moment" with record-breaking attendance.

[02:24] A: "It was amazing... almost doubled the show attendance on the Sunday and it was packed beyond belief."

2. Electric Vehicle (EV) Mandates in the UK

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the UK's Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) mandate. Launched to accelerate the transition to electric vehicles, the mandate required manufacturers to sell a growing percentage of battery electric vehicles (BEVs):

• 2022: 22% BEV sales
• 2025: 28% BEV sales
• 2030: 80% BEV sales
• 2035: 100% BEV sales

Robert expresses concern over recent legislative changes that dilute these targets, providing more flexibility to manufacturers and exempting smaller companies.

[09:12] A: "By the end of last year, manufacturers had to sell 22% of new car sales would have to be battery electric... ultimately going up to 80% by 2030 and 100% by 2035."

3. Charging Infrastructure and Consumer Perceptions

The hosts emphasize the importance of robust charging infrastructure in promoting EV adoption. They discuss initiatives like installing 5,000 on-street chargers in Brighton and Hove to support residents without driveways. Robert highlights psychological barriers, noting that perceptions about charging needs often outweigh actual technological limitations.

[25:55] A: "The reality is that if you're listening to this podcast... And that's transformative, isn't it?"

4. Impact of US Tariffs and Global Trade on the EV Industry

A critical segment examines the repercussions of recent tariffs imposed by the US under President Trump, labeling it as "disaster capitalism." The tariffs are disrupting global supply chains, affecting manufacturing processes, and potentially hindering EV infrastructure development.

[36:36] A: "The recent tariff introductions from the United States... it's going to disrupt everything, isn't it?"

The discussion touches on how these tariffs weaken competitors like Hyundai and BMW while inadvertently strengthening Chinese manufacturers, who remain less affected due to their dominant market positions.

5. The Role of Tesla and Other EV Manufacturers

Tesla remains a focal point, with both praise and critique. Robert acknowledges Tesla's foundational role in the EV movement but notes recent sales declines and challenges faced amidst political turbulence.

[57:18] A: "Without Tesla, we just wouldn't be here."

Conversely, the guest highlights the vast scale of companies like BYD, which outpaces Tesla in employee numbers and production, yet receives less media attention.

[44:27] B: "There's a company 10 times bigger that's making far more cars... Meanwhile, there's BYD."

6. Future Outlook and Industry Trends

Looking forward, the hosts express optimism about the EV industry's trajectory despite current challenges. They anticipate China's continued dominance and the inevitable shift towards plug-in vehicles. There's also a discussion about the evolving consumer preferences, the decline of diesel cars, and the potential of innovative vehicles like microlinos.

[16:28] A: "The vast majority of cars will come with a plug."

Robert introduces "Electric Vehicles UK," a lobbying group aimed at driving demand and simplifying the message around EV benefits, such as cost savings.

[19:38] A: "The average EV over its term of ownership can save a driver £5,850 per year."

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Key Takeaways:

• Success of Global EV Events: Recent shows, especially in Sydney and London, indicate growing public interest and adoption of EVs.

• UK's ZEV Mandate Challenges: Legislative shifts are causing uncertainty, potentially slowing the transition to electric vehicles.

• Charging Infrastructure is Crucial: Expanding and improving charging options is vital for consumer confidence and EV adoption.

• Global Trade Tensions Impact EV Industry: US tariffs under Trump are disrupting global supply chains, affecting manufacturers worldwide.

• Tesla vs. BYD: While Tesla remains a symbol of the EV revolution, companies like BYD are emerging as major players with significant production capabilities.

• Future Trends: Continued shift towards plug-in vehicles, decline of diesel, and the rise of innovative, smaller electric vehicles tailored for urban environments.

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Notable Quotes:

• ZEV Mandate Impact:
  [09:12] A: "By the end of last year, manufacturers had to sell 22% of new car sales would have to be battery electric... moving up to 28% this year, ultimately going up to 80% by 2030 and 100% by 2035."

• Charging Infrastructure Importance:
  [25:55] A: "The reality is that if you're listening to this podcast... And that's transformative, isn't it?"

• Economic Concerns from Tariffs:
  [36:36] A: "The recent tariff introductions from the United States... it's going to disrupt everything, isn't it?"

• Tesla’s Foundational Role:
  [57:18] A: "Without Tesla, we just wouldn't be here."

• EV Cost Savings:
  [19:38] A: "The average EV over its term of ownership can save a driver £5,850 per year."

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Conclusion

The episode underscores the dynamic and often tumultuous landscape of the electric vehicle industry. While challenges such as legislative changes and global trade tensions pose significant hurdles, the overall trajectory remains positive with increasing consumer adoption and advancements in technology. Hosts Robert Llewellyn and Dan Caesar advocate for continued efforts to drive demand and educate the public on the benefits and realities of electric vehicles.

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Stay Updated:
Subscribe to The Fully Charged Podcast for more insights into sustainability, eco-news, and the evolving world of electric vehicles.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Before we begin, we're running a survey for people that have bought a battery electric vehicle already and for people that have yet to do so. Now, it would be fantastic if you could complete this survey. It's incredibly helpful as we work to increase electric vehicle uptake in the UK and beyond. There's only one small catch. This is a SNAP survey, so it can't be hijacked by those who would like to skew our findings. And it's only open until 06:00 in the evening, London time on the 14th of April. We look forward to sharing the results in the near future. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Fully Charged Show Podcast. I'm going to do a really short introduction today, but I just want to point out that right at the start, at the top, at the start, we've got our next show coming up in London in very. In the week after next. And it is. I'm going to tell you the exact dates because I'm that good with dates now.

[A]

I think this is going out on Monday, isn't it? So it'll be two days from when this goes out.

[B]

It is next week while we're recording this. It's this week. That was good. Basically what I would need all my life is to have a little earphone in with Dan behind me telling me what's going on. It really helps. Thank you, Dan, I'm now going to introduce you. Please welcome to the Fully Charged show podcast. Dan Caesar, CEO of the Fully Charged Show Limited. Boom. Got there in the end.

[A]

APPLAUSE DRUM roll Bullet.

[B]

Bullets fired, Old beer cans thrown. Last time we spoke, which I now know is about a month ago, we were on the stage at, at Everything Electric in Sydney on the night of, or the evening of the second day on the Saturday, and it would been bonkers that day. But I just wanted to. Quick, you know, it was an amazing event altogether, wasn't it? And very uplifting. But the following day, which in my memory, and you'll probably correct me on this, but in my memory, I sort of think of quite a few of the shows we've done. The Sunday's been the quieter day of the three days and it was definitely not the case in Sydney. If anything, I would think Sydney Sunday was the maddest, busiest certainly I've ever seen anywhere.

[A]

It was amazing. It was a, from our perspective, a watershed moment. It was the busiest day we've ever had of all 18 shows. So 50 odd days. I think the first couple of shows were two days. Yes. Who's counting? But since then they've all been three day events and it was the busiest day we've ever had. It, I think almost doubled the show attendance on the Sunday and it was packed beyond belief. Everyone was raving about how good Friday and Saturday was. And then Sunday came along.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And sort of broke all of our attendance records, which is just what we needed, a real, real boost in positivity. Incredible show, lots of great stuff there. And actually we've been working on something the last four years, really, which has been kind of, I guess, introducing the Everything Electric name to people via the second channel and in the last 18 months through the events and it does seem to be getting some real traction.

[B]

It works.

[A]

Yeah. I think that it's really helped us get people in. And there were loads of people there who said, I never heard of Robert Llewellyn. No, I don't want a fully charged show. So, you know, rather than take Umbridge.

[B]

We actually found that to be very encouraging.

[A]

Incredibly encouraging.

[B]

Yeah, no, that way was, it was very good. I'd like to say A lot of them said they hadn't heard of the fully charged show or Everything Electric show. Or me. I would put it in that I've not heard of that old bloke, but.

[A]

They weren't running up to me and saying, who's this bloke? I've never heard of him, get rid of him. They weren't saying that, just to be clear. They just went, you know, they're just.

[B]

People that, that were interested in the topic.

[A]

No knowledge of, no knowledge of the channel. Had just seen it advertised locally. Yeah, we're coming in to do the test drives. Did about 8,000. Eight across the three days.

[B]

Was 8,000 test drives.

[A]

Yeah, over 31,000 attendees. So, yeah, really feels like we're, we're getting somewhere. And, you know, came back full of positivity from Australia and then came back to the uk, damp and gray and actually, thankfully the weather's been quite good for the last couple of weeks.

[B]

Yeah, it has.

[A]

It's helped keep us topped up on.

[B]

Vitamin D. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, it's certainly the, the challenge feels like, you know, it just feels like when we're in Vancouver, it's, you know, nothing is ever plain sailing and dead easy. But Vancouver feels like solid optimistic. There's lots of excitement. I mean, we haven't been in Canada since, you know, other things have happened around that, but, you know, it feels like a really positive city that's doing amazing stuff and British Columbia is doing amazing stuff and there's a lot of, you know, it just feels like there's a buzz there, but it does feel like, I think there is enthusiasm in this country, but it feels like there's a bigger. There's like. Well, the business community in this country is so bamboozled and confused and battered. It feels like, I don't know, I.

[A]

Mean, yeah, there's a totally different atmosphere, you know, I've said many times it feels not like a different country, but a different planet. Australia is super positive. Loads of stuff going on. Election coming up on May 3rd. So quite a big moment there potentially. Election coming up in Canada as well. 28th, so actually same week.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Two rather significant elections. Yeah, we think potentially, I'm sure we'll talk about the Donald in this podcast, but we think potentially that that phenomenon might make some Canadians and Australians think twice about electing a real, let's say, right wing sort of disruptive figure. And they might want to vote in Mark Carney, revote in Anthony Albanese in Australia. So we'll have to see how that, that plays out. But they certainly feel very, very different to the uk. Yeah, the UK still fundamentally feels like everyone's a little bit flat, you know, and the economic market is flat and has been flat for quite some time. And I was kind of reflecting on that. I think it's a whole layering of different issues, if I'm completely honest. But yeah, you and I met almost nine years ago and we met. It was almost exactly the time of the Brexit decision.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I've had an amazing nine years working with you, but the world has been pretty unpredictable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In that timeframe. I'm not linking those two things, by the way. And I think that Brexit remains. The long shadow of Brexit remains a big problem here and the UK economy is just not growing. It's still relatively early in the Labour government's electoral cycle to expect them to turn the ship around. But at the moment things are still pretty flat here. And there's still, you know, from government, a lot of confusion and fairly lukewarm attitude towards electric vehicles and clean tech in general. And that's disappointing to report. We certainly hoped a new government would be a little bit more inspirational on that subject. But I'm sure we'll talk about that.

[B]

Yes, well, because I did hear discussion on the radio this morning, you know, about the. About the zero electric vehicle mandate or the ZEV mandate mandate. I don't know, but I listened to it really carefully. I could not understand what was going on either they are delaying the 2030 thing or they're not, or they're doing. I just couldn't work it out. I don't. I mean, have you, you, you generally got a better grip of these things than I have.

[A]

Yes. Sadly for me, that is my, my life actually these days, as some people might be aware. We've also launched something called Electric Vehicles uk.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which I guess in old, an old money would be called a kind of lobbying group for battery electric vehicles. So I spend a lot of my time now in the corridors of power or close to them, trying to understand what's going on. And the ZEV mandate has actually been quite successful in the respect that it's actually got car companies to start to increase the number of battery electric vehicles they sell through things like discounting, through, you know, forcing them to promote them. Obviously there's some super progressive manufacturers out there who don't need any encouragement to do that, but there are others in the middle ground who need a little bit of a gentle nudge and there are some on the kind of sort of combustion end of things who really would rather just slow this transition down as much as is possible. So it's been quite useful. And basically the way it was operating was by the end of last year, manufacturers had to sell. 22% of new car sales would have to be battery electric.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Moving up to 28% this year, ultimately going up to 80% by 2030 and 100% by 2035. Right. They would be fined per car. Those fines didn't really materialize. There was 15,000 pounds per car below the 22% threshold. And essentially some of the car companies are fighting very hard against that legislation and trying to water it down and trying to dilute it. And I get it, it's a really, really difficult time to run a car company and actually, we actually understand it. But our whole premise really is the world is changing. As much as you might want to ostrich, put your head in the sand and pretend things aren't changing for your own good, we really need to get on with electrification because let's take a Nissan, for example. Great company, great cars, very publicly struggling at the moment. We don't want to see them fail.

[B]

No, absolutely not.

[A]

The longer they stay out of competition, don't compete, don't build up the muscles, bite through competition, the harder it will be for them to keep up with the leaders in the market, which very obviously the early EV leader obviously was Tesla. And now obviously the Chinese companies have jumped into the fray. So in Answer to your question, has the Z mandate changed? There was a consultation period. Electric Vehicles UK was one of many, many organizations that submitted its response on what government should and shouldn't do. And the government has hesitate, choose my words very carefully. Has I think really caved to a very small selection of car companies who want to go slower.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so the headline number 2030 remains.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But what's in the box looks quite complicated. Yeah, different. So you know, some people use the word sort of weasel words around politicians. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna use that. But certainly quite a reframing a debate. So 2030 is real but the finding number will go down. There's a lot of flexibility is being offered to certain companies. Smaller manufacturers don't have to comply at all now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think most egregiously of all plugless hybrids have been slipped back into the 2030-2035 phase out date. And I think that's really disappointing. I think it's really disappointing news and I think it causes consumer confusion. If you know, if you say to people, you know, do you understand whether a self charging hybrid or an E power car is really an electric vehicle? Some people think that they are and so that continues. And unfortunately in trying to protect some of the UK based car makers, they've actually probably maybe protected them for a few months at best but actually they've left them wide open to being overtaken by product from other countries and ultimately run the risk of losing jobs rather than protecting them. They continue to confuse a consumer. And also, I'll be honest, the whole premise of the EV industry is an emergent market. It needs investment to help it grow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It needs encouragement to help it grow. Much like a small, you know, seedling requires looking after. And the reality is that this news which is just broken this morning, actually this is going on obviously next Monday, but it's broken this morning is probably a huge blow to investments for things like EV charging for example.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which need long term certainty. So yes, 2030 remains but actually it's been I think quite significantly hollowed out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And clearly that's, that's, I think disappointing and does nothing really to boost the positivity and productivity in the UK and so yeah, really enjoyed Australia. UK I think seems to be in a situation where it's going to be tricky for a while still to come.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think I, you know, I mean I, as, I know, you know, I agree with you but I did actually think, you know, it's McLaren Aston Martin probably. Maybe Lotus. I don't. They didn't mention Lotus. But you know, it's those sort of iconic British supercar brands from a global perspective. I don't care whether they make petrol engines, it's irrelevant. It's such small numbers. I think Bentley as well, you know, so. Which is owned by vw, isn't it? And I guess Rolls Royce, you know, all those very posh car companies that where their cars cost hundreds of thousands of pounds. I mean they only, they only make like 40 or 50 a week, you know, they're not it. What matters is the company that's churning out 500,000 diesels a month. That's who, that's what I want to stop those ones, which this does do. I mean, I think, you know, that certainly whatever else is going on with that 2030 ban, diesel's out the window. You know, in 10 years time there's going to be only secondhand old NACA diesels around and in 20 years time there'll be none. Which I think is, you know, I've always had a real thing about diesel cars, you know, but I can see, you know, I mean they're non plug in because the plug in hybrids. Annoying. The non plug in hybrids is a petrol car that maybe does fractionally better mileage than one without it. But even that's debatable. You know, I don't think it's.

[A]

Well, the smaller manufacturers have been exempted. That's my understanding of what I've seen so far this morning. So that would include your Aston Martins of this world.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not Lotus because they're part of Geely, actually.

[B]

Oh, that's true, yes. That's why they weren't. Because that was aston Martin and McDonald's. McDonald's, McDonald's. They're allowed to keep, keep pumping out whatever they want to do. And McLaren, it was Aston Martin, McLaren.

[A]

So they're kind of exempted. So it's other manufacturers that we're talking about really. And yeah, there's different types of offerings. Of course there are. But now we know there's so few certainties in the automotive industry, but I can name two off the top of my head and I'm happy to be held accountable for these statements in five years time. There are two certainties, I think one of which is China is going to eat up a huge amount of market share in the car industry over the coming five years, 10 years, it's going to be very, very significant. I'm absolutely certain about that. Now. I wasn't that doubtful before what I'm seeing all the time indicates that that's going to be incredibly difficult for legacy automakers to compete with. The second thing is that the bulk of cars by 2030 and then by 2035 will come with a plug.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

The vast majority of cars will come with a plug. And so, you know, to sort of side with Japanese manufacturers and to miss the Chinese phenomenon that's going on that you and I are well aware of and people who probably listen to this channel are well aware of is pretty astonishing, I think. And then also to, you know, kind of, I guess, keep plugless hybrids on life support is also very, very hard to fathom as well. I guess that politicians of all stripes are open to lobbying and effectively that's what we're talking about. And the combustion lobby is a very, very powerful force. I think it's important to say there's some nuance here as well. I'm a big battery electric vehicle advocate, have been for a long time. I'm not massively enthusiastic about plug in hybrid electric vehicles, or PHEVs, even if they deserve to be called plug in hybrid electric vehicles. I'm not sure.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I can see that they're an important stopgap for manufacturers who are trying to chart a very narrow path to survival and I can see that there's market for those types of vehicles and fundamentally, if it's got a plug, at least it's educated people that actually we're going to start plugging these cars in. Clearly there are some issues there. Sometimes people get them, they don't plug them in, et cetera, et cetera. But I think I could argue with a straight face that it's an important part of the transition. What is much, much harder is the wolf in sheep clothing hybrids, which are just, in no way are they electric, they're just combustion engine vehicles and I think the inclusion of them is a huge misstep by the, by the uk.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm off to the Nordic EV Summit this week and I'm looking forward to my friends in Oslo just laughing at us that we have even entertained that they, they banned the term self charging hybrid five years ago. Yeah. They are now regularly in 95% new car sales of battery electric every single month.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And even Toyota in Norway are setting themselves a target of 99% battery electric vehicle sales by the end of 2026.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So if Toyota can do it there.

[B]

Yeah. That is so classic. That is so here.

[A]

So, so that is the power of politics is, is immense. But What I would say is that the formation of Electric Vehicles UK is designed to be a positive voice. Like, I've had my say. I've, you know, I've said what I think. But the reality is we now need to get on with a job of driving demand. Electric Vehicles UK is going to be a membership body for the EV industry to get behind. And our whole thing is really about driving demand. How do we drive demand and how do we simplify the message? Let's not get distracted by car park fires and all those other kind of erroneous stories that are out there. Let's actually talk about the simple message, which is cheaper, better battery electric.

[B]

Yeah?

[A]

How do we get that mantra out there, you know, to everyone, over and over again? So, as I said before, the cost of driving electric report that we ran showed that the average EV over its term of ownership can save a driver £5,850 per year. That's per car. So if you have more than one car, you can do that again. Used EVs, on average £2,781 cheaper, right? So if you get a used evidence and you're fortunate enough to be able to charge it at home as well, you can make an absolutely colossal saving per car. And we need to get that message out there. In fact, in March, 69,000 new EVs were sold, a record number, right? So while there is, you know, I sort of despair of, you know, what's going on in the political sphere, but actually the great British consumer is getting it more and more. And if we can keep repeating cheaper, better battery electric over and over again, we all win another 50,000, another 60,000, other 7,000 every month until we get this job done. So it is for us, we're looking forward to everything. Electric London coming up this, this Wednesday, right, Thursday and Friday at London xl, where Electric Vehicles UK will actually get up on a pulpit and say, this is our prospectus, right? This is how we're going to drive demand. And we want the industry, including manufacturers, to join us on that. So I'm really looking forward to breaking cover and explaining what that's going to be all about. But as I said, you know, there are so many distractions. We're still going to tackle the stories of misinformation, we will still do that, but actually we're going to spend 90% of our time driving demand and making people realize how good these cars are, right? And the whole idea of saying they're cheaper is not saying they're inferior, they're cheaper. And they're better, right? We know this driving them. Now, some EVs aren't as good as others.

[B]

I think they're all fantastic, you know.

[A]

I mean, you know, some aren't as good as others, but generally speaking, the class of product is excellent and some of them are really, really fantastic. And so we can say, hand on art, that these are better. And we know that more than nine out of ten EV drivers from multiple surveys conducted will never go back to combustion engine.

[B]

Because.

[A]

Why is that? Because they're such good pieces of kit and cheaper as well. The running costs are so low and you're very fortunate to have it if you've got a driveway and you can charge it cheaply. But even without that, you can still enjoy an EV and still potentially save money. So I'm on a crusade along with the EV industry to get these messages out there and hopefully, irrespective of what politicians do, hopefully drive demand and make sure the number of used and new EV sales goes up and up and up from this point forward.

[B]

I mean, I think even though we did, we both mentioned it when we first had a chat this morning, it's kind of an irrelevant little side note, but actually it's got a resonance to it, which is what's happening in Brighton and Hove. You know, the fact that there are those moves happening and they're happening all over the world. And this is. I think they're installing 5,000 on street chargers in the, in Brighton and Hove, two seaside UK towns, to make, to make charging much more accessible to people who don't have driveways. And I mean, I think those. I was in London day before yesterday and all the lamppost chargers where I was walking were in use. So they've been there for a long time and I've often seen them. Oh, that's one of those lamppost chargers, you know, and it's just an empty socket. No one's using it that. It was actually yesterday. Sorry, it was yesterday. And I went, that's really interesting. Every single one had a car plugged into it. And this is. I'm talking about probably a dozen chargers, a dozen lampposts. So just the, the normality of electric cars on the street being charged is, Is already happening, you know, I mean, I think there's now 14,000 of those in London of those lamppost chargers. So it's sort of catching. It is, I feel it is catching on the one. As, you know, the one type of vehicle that is the. Where sales are increasing, the only one is electric ones. Petrol's down diesels off the, you know, dropped off the charts of new cars. You know, that's, it's definitely. I'm very aware of how many electric cars there are. I used to, it's my rubbish. But I used to feel special, you know, and I was virtue signaling like a lunatic because I had an electric car. Well, that is utterly irrelevant now. Who gives a poo? It's just a car. Which is what, you know, that I think if we can achieve the fact that when you Say car by 2030, it's just automatically electric car. And if you say, oh, I drive a petrol car, that's the definition. There's cars and then there's petrol cars and diesel cars would be. We'll get there.

[A]

Well, I mean we've made huge, huge progress. There's no, there's no question about it. I refuse to get kind of two down on one one, you know, bad set of head headlines. For example, as I said, last month in. In UK was a record number for, for volume Used EV market is, is going, you know, they're flying off the four courts. Used EVs versus used ice cars. We're seeing the, the future sort of slowly come together and the charging piece is really interesting. You know, go to ZapMap site. You could see how many charges there are around the country now, but it's a huge, huge number. Instavolt just opened an incredible charging site hub at Winchester.

[B]

I'm going there tomorrow.

[A]

Are you? I'm just, I'm trying to subtly, without telling my wife and children, plan a trip with that on route.

[B]

Well, I'm good because I'm, I'm heading due south tomorrow to film and actually I'm heading due south east south. So I'm doing. It's a bit of a. To get it in, but, you know, I think it's worth doing. I will only be there for a few minutes because I don't, you know, I. Just to emphasize to listeners who don't understand these things, I don't need to charge the car at this church.

[A]

That's the thing.

[B]

But I want to go and see. It does sound amazing.

[A]

Yeah. Fundamentally, that's. That's the thing. The reality is that if you're, if you're listening to this podcast or if you're one of the people who's yet to make the leap, you know, you might make some assumptions. It's completely.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I plug my phone in every night and often for most people the battery phone is analogous with the battery car and they think well, I'm going to plug my car in every night. Not so you. Even if you do lots of mileage. I do. You might charge it in once or twice a week.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That's transformative, isn't it? Because then you go, well, hang on, if it's not, people aren't charging all the time. There's going to be no issues with the grid because they charge overnight and not everyone's going to pull from the grid at the same time. You know, you think, well, if any charge once or twice a week, maybe I could actually don't. If I don't have driveway, maybe I could charge because I don't have to do it every single night. I don't have to find a car parking space every single night. It changes, it changes the whole way that you, that you think. And that's the reality also, the batteries don't degrade quickly like they might do on a phone, you know, so all of those things, if you don't know until you, until you try it, you're not quite clear. It's great to have the hubs and it's great to have charging in supermarkets and all the rest of it. And I actually think the middle bit, the middle bit is far more important than the rapids on the motorway. A little bit where you can go to your supermarket or there's a nearby place you can charge, etc. That's going to be the critical part of it. But generally speaking, I mean, I do huge mileage and I only ever use the rapid ultra fast charging once or twice a month. I mean, it's that infrequent. I do huge mileage. So the bulk of people, the average mileage in the UK is about 6,800 miles.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

You know, which is if you, if you, if you've got a car that sat at home or nearby that could do 200 miles.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, on a, on a charge to 100 miles there and back, you know, 200 miles a day over 365 days a year. Well, I'm telling you, that's a lot more than 6,800 miles.

[B]

Yeah, a lot, lot, lot, lot, lot more.

[A]

You just really don't need it. So actually charging is considered to be this big, this big barrier.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I would say 95 of that is psychological.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As opposed to a real barrier.

[B]

And I think people, I mean, a few people I've spoken to recently have and I've said, you know, the charging infrastructure used to be non existent or unreliable and blah, blah, but it's much better now. And they go, yes, it is, isn't it? These are people who don't drive electric cars, but they've seen it. They've gone to a motorway services and seen 24 chargers and they go, oh, my goodness, look at all those. You know, they're. That, that. The. The actual appearance of those things. I mean, almost if you were really evil politician, you could just put empty boxes there with cables hanging from them. They don't do anything, but it gives people confidence to know that they can. There is. That infrastructure is really. It's a kind of psychological thing as much as a technological one.

[A]

I'll stay in my lane on this one, but I can tell you that the people at Charge uk, if there is to this and EVA England and other people, members of the charging infrastructure, roll out in the uk, would be saying me to say that actually a lot of the charging in the UK is not well signed, often not signed.

[B]

Don't know where it is, you know.

[A]

And actually there's loads and loads and loads out there. Go on, Zap, map and. And have a look. So I'm staying in my lane on this one. But that's again, it's a political red tape issue where people are, you know, there's not enough. Just not enough signage around and I knew this was going to happen.

[B]

I want some attention. That's a lovely sight for our viewers.

[A]

You're listening.

[B]

If you're listening. There is a cat. I think a polite way of saying there is the rear of a cat. Very apparent on the screen at the moment.

[A]

But, yeah, I don't mind protecting. Protecting her.

[B]

But anyway, yeah, she's a lovely cat.

[A]

Hang on, we might. We might edit this.

[B]

I think it's rather nice having her there.

[A]

See if she'll sit down.

[B]

Go down in your little chair. That's right.

[A]

Sorry, that was Marge. It's fully, fully Marge. Fully on display.

[B]

That. I've got to go. I just want to go back to that Toyota thing, though, in Norway. That is extraordinary that, you know, in a sense, you know, for. For the. A huge company like Toyota, there's many facets to it, but we know for certain that they have done their fair share of lobbying to delay the. The, you know, the uptake of electric vehicle, of pure electric vehicles. They've really fought hard for hydrogen for hybrids. They're now. But they're now. This is what. This has happened again and again and again, hasn't it, with. We've seen it happen so many times with different companies that they'll struggle and push and say, no, it doesn't. It's not the solution. And we, there's got to be something better than that because they've just launched three new, Three new electric vehicles. Marge is still making us.

[A]

So sorry.

[B]

It's great. Marge, put your bottom down, love.

[A]

Okay, well, you keep talking.

[B]

Yes. Oh, that's good. Yeah, off you go. There you go. That's it. We'd love to see the front. Oh, there she goes. She's off now. That's our own choice. But, yeah, but I mean, I think that, that, I think that tells us that it's public demand that is changing the attitudes of those companies. Not, you know, it's a combination of legislation, but also, you know, what the public wants. And the public are buying electric cars. You know, they are. I mean, someone on the BBC this morning said, you can't force people to buy, you know, a BBC journalist said, you know, what about all the people who don't want them? You're like, that's the majority. No, mate. What about all the people that do want them? And there's this constant badgering against them.

[A]

You know, again, you see surveys. Far more people are open minded to it than you realize. Once the word gets out they're cheaper. You know, that will happen once people have test drives. Once people realize they're better, you'll get. The network effects will kick in. That won't be far away. You know, when people are going, hang on a second, these seem to be quite good. I know, mate, he's really happy with it. And you know, that's, that's going to kick in. That's not so far away. So I remain incredibly optimistic. Yeah, I think this is much, much a megatrend. It's going to trump politics. I've said this time and time over again, but it is just like pulling teeth sometimes in certain circles. And we're doing some work educating MPs for example. And the number of MPs that drive electric is vanishing is still low.

[B]

Right. Because I've met a couple, you know.

[A]

And the same goes to journalists. I'm not taking a pop at either party. I totally understand it. By law of averages, you know, if only, you know, 31.5 million cars out there are 35 million car park. Clearly it's a small number. Clearly not many MPs or journalists who have them either. But they cannot really speak to their strengths and weaknesses if they don't drive. Yeah. And so find ourselves going into sort of corridors of power knowing far, far more than the people who are making decisions on this stuff, which unfortunately, that's just the way democracy works, isn't it? And in the uk it's a bit susceptible to lobbying, but maybe I've done that topic to death, but I remain optimistic, which is very good to hear. And we're working very, very hard to help industry kind of communicate the benefits to end users of all stripes. That's consumers, fleets, etc.

[B]

The other very large, slightly orange elephant in the room is of course, the recent tariff introductions from the United States, from the President, I guess you can say it's fairly much him. You know, that's. And that does feel like it's affected the entire planet. And, you know, it's, it's headline news everywhere except now, where was that? That was really amusing. I think China, they don't, you know, I mean, they're affected by it definitely. But, you know, if there's a website, I must go and find it again, where you just see the headlight, front pages of every newspaper on the planet, you can scroll through them and Trump was on every single newspaper, except I think it was Chinese ones and maybe Indian ones where they had completely different stories and they're not that bothered about what, what he's doing, but I'm sure they are bothered. It's going to make a big, I mean, it's going to disrupt everything, isn't it? Including the uptake of electric vehicles, infrastructure, the manufacturing processes, the parts, the materials, everything is going to be affected by that.

[A]

So we're sat here on 7th of April and this podcast will be on the 14th of April and everything could have changed in the next week. Yes.

[B]

No idea.

[A]

Yeah, no, we sat here. The FTSE is significantly down, the Nikkei is significantly down, Australia's stock market is significantly down. All within a range, about 4, 5, 6%. This is off the back of two very, very bad days of 5% drops in most of the world's stock exchanges. And America is due to ring the bell in about an hour or two, Right? And this has already been described as Black Monday. Everyone knew that two day cycle was not going to go away that quickly. And it could be that stocks plunge even more today and it may even force Trump into something of a reversal.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But this is not a Liz Truss moment where someone sort of blows up the economy and there's a bunch of sort of gray suited men in the background in what in UK is called the 1922 Club, who can basically kind of force her out.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Trump is I, from what I can See, my knowledge of American politicians is not. Politics is not as extensive as people listen to this in America right now. But there's, there's no such mechanism, I don't think, in, in the U.S. and if you've watched the biopic about Trump, you know, basically never admit you're wrong, never apologize, always blame someone else. So, yeah, this is, you know, to me, without wishing to sound like conspiracist theory, this is, they've had an opportunity to short the markets, you know, to, to, to, yeah, it's disaster capitalism of a sort. Someone who's making money out of shorting stock at the moment, potentially getting some of the companies that desperately need carve outs, like Apple, for example, Nike, who are going to be hugely affected to maybe bend the knee even further in support of Trump. It feels like a pretty dark time. And again, I'm not going to go too far into conspiracy theorists, but, but it does seem like the direction is pretty, pretty concerning. Yeah. And as relates to global trade, it's effectively protectionism, saying that, you know, globalization is over. I saw a UK politician say that they're thinking, thinking, well, the pendulum hasn't swung that far back the other way. Yes, globalization has some problems.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And yes, obviously the world is changing, but, you know, we still get, I'm afraid, so much of our products from around the world. So it's very, very naive to say that globalization is over if it's changing into something new, perhaps, but it is far from over. And America's walled garden of, you know, four, four and a half percent of the population is a bit like, you know, us walling ourselves in the UK with, with Brexit, where there's a much bigger market next door. And America, unfortunately, if you take Apple for example, you know, all their products are made overseas, more or less, you know, so it's going to have profound impact, specifically in the transport and the car industry. It's really, really interesting to see what's going on and again, it's going to have a huge, huge impact on those sectors. So what's interesting is Ed Conway on Sky News did a great piece on that. I don't know if you've ever seen his videos. I know you've interviewed him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But he did a great piece on that recently and you could see that the countries most affected on his chart are obviously Mexico at the top, because Mexico is obviously bound into the US car making industry. Canada was not far behind, but actually they don't have car industries of their own. In advertising, you have car Industries, but they're not owned. But like the UK car industry is not owned by us, it's owned by overseas companies. And what was interesting was the big ones that can be affected were Japan. We've talked about Toyota to death already today. Korea. South Korea.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Germany.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And right down the end of this chart, below the UK in fact, and below Slovakia, just behind the uk. I didn't know they made lots of cars in Slovakia. My bad. But I've looked that up since. They do actually have quite a significant, you know, car making industry there. Right down the end of the chart, the country sort of least affected was China.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Because China's all. Not China's locked out of the US already.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. They weren't selling cars there anyway.

[A]

It's not going to, it's going to lose stuff from other tariffs, you know, in other sectors, but as far as car is concerned, it's going to lose the least.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So what's happening with the Trump tariff is rather than protect themselves in China, they're strengthening China.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because they're weakening China's competitors at the moment. Chinese cars competitors are. I would say Korea.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hyundai, I would say BMW. I'm not going to list this.

[B]

No, I mean, yeah, the Japanese, you.

[A]

Know, those are their competitors actually being further, further weakened and China is being strengthened and I read that Stellantis, the, the EV and car super group, a huge percentage of its profits come from, from the us.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, obviously Toyota is very big there, Nissan's very big there. You can also see at the same time the Chinese market, the overseas brands are getting less and less bought in, in China, Chinese brands. So you've got this just extraordinary range of different problems being held at automotive execs and I really, really feel. Sorry. Extraordinarily stressful, extraordinarily difficult. But it's not, it's not really about the rise of EVs, it's actually about how progressive the companies are, how lean they are, how well run they are. And you know, unfortunately it does feel again that sort of Darwinian moment. Some will really, really struggle and it have to be said that you. Surely we're going to see some, some casualties and that could of course include some of the ev pure play companies like we pray for Rivian, we hope they do well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But to what extent might they find it difficult if they've got expansion plans outside of the U.S. for example, if Canada is a big, you know, prospective market for them, how's that going to hurt them and hurt them and Also.

[B]

You know that they're, you know, a large chunk of their components are going to come from China or they're going to come from outside the usa. Just, it's just the way the world has worked for the last 40, 50 years, you know, so if they've got a steering wheel that they really like, it's probably made in Taiwan or it's made in, you know, Indonesia or Vietnam. You know, even like solid hardware as opposed to software. That stuff's made all over the world. It always has been. That's, you know, the nature of the beast. So it's going to affect them. I was also thinking of Aptera who are just now running vehicles on really long distances and doing road tests with them. They look amazing.

[A]

I think Aptera might, you know, we'll see how they get on, I guess. Yes, it's the componentry that's the issue there. Obviously they're selling largely into the US market so they won't have suffered from that point of view, but depending on what componentry they're bringing in from elsewhere. But on Ed Conway is amazing presentation. He dissected America's most popular car, which is the Ford F150, not the Lightning, just the Ford F150. And back in 2012 it was 75% of it was made including the components in the US Canada, right wind forward to 2024 and now it's down to 45% of it is made in Canada. So the most popular car, over half of it is actually not made.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

North America at all.

[B]

Wow. That is shocking that that's changed in that recent piece of history.

[A]

You can see why, you know, economic pressures, how do we make these, how do we say, profitable, you know, actually, you know, the, the, that we need to use overseas componentry, overseas workers, etc, the idea that, you know, Americans are going to start opening factories to make iPhones and to make cars, the rest of it is, it's not necessarily far fetched but it will take years.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And what happens in the meantime? Products get more expensive. So yeah, I mean the tariffs, as I say, a reversal could be forced. If the stock exchange sort of has a really terrible week, for example, next week things could be a bit different. But Trump doesn't look like he's a ban for turning as far as I'm concerned. And he is, he'll be delighted to hear that he's on the front page of every paper in the world apart in China where they really just, just, they're just, they can't believe their Luck, I don't think. And Russia. Russia, yes. I think Putin's probably quite amused by the whole situation.

[B]

He's delighted. No, it's exactly what he told him to do. No, what he may have suggested is a good idea disclaimer, allegedly. But one of the little factoids I stumbled across the other day was employment numbers. So Tesla, incredibly successful, innovative country. You know, over a hundred thousand people work for Tesla around the world. I mean, which is, you know, I'm still staggered by that. That's a huge, you know, from when I first sat in a Tesla Roadster in 2009, I think it was, you know, when There was probably 100 people worked at Tesla, maybe 200, I bet not even that many. You know, it's very small and it's now 100,000. But then you just compare that. There are 110,000 scientists, engineers, chemists at BYD that work in nothing else other than product development, battery, you know, building new battery technology. 100. So there's more people working R and D. There's over a million employees at byd. That just puts it into perspective because it's so hard for us to see, because all the news for us in the west is Tesla, Tesla, Tesla, Tesla, Tesla. You know, regardless of whether it's negative or positive, positive. But there's a huge amount of just obsessive coverage of that one company and the value of it and the boss and all the rest of it. Meanwhile, There's a company 10 times bigger that's making far more cars. And the boss, you know, one of the bosses of, of byd, Stella Lee. What are her politics? I don't know and I don't care.

[A]

Not the slightest bit. Well, let's, let's, let's, let's tackle them one at a time, I think. Start with byd. We went to a launch of a new car in the UK a couple weeks ago. The car was great. It's going to be everything electric London, along with a whole other bunch of cars you've never seen before on the 16th, 17th, 18th of April. But it was everything else that impressed me. The size of their ambition is just extraordinary. Some of the other tech they showed us in video form was mind blowing, absolutely mind blowing. And they are just, you know, they're at the absolute front edge now. Very, very confident. They probably, supported by armada of other Asian car companies, will be the leaders in the coming years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you probably saw the story about the battery technology that they're kind of developing. And they're not the only Ones I think Zeeka came out part of the GD group, came out with some similar, similar sort of store of even faster charging battery a few days. I mean it literally is absolutely mind blowing. And I think we are planning to head to Shanghai to see that show. So we've got everything electric London and then we got to go to Shanghai to look at the future and we'll report back from there, I'm sure. But BYD are in an extremely strong position. They've just launched their sixth RORO car carrying sea monster.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

I think you can get like 9200 cars on each one. They've got going up to eight of those ships by 2026. So they can export about a million cars a year.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So it's just an extraordinary endeavor. And yes, you know, obviously there's just no ironically playing the game of capitalism extreme extremely well. And you know, and really, you know, from a political perspective, just not talking about that sort of thing at all. At the same time at Tesla, I think it's important to, to talk about Tesla. You know, the, the CEO has sort of got quite, quite political and obviously that's, that's caused them some, some, some issues as an organization. Certainly been interesting to be caught up in that. We get caught in the crossfire of that occasionally. And I saw, we posted a video on, on, on X, I think it was the other day, about our Sydney show and I think it was even entitled Chinese Cars at Sydney.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then people started commenting beneath it saying, how can you not cover Tesla? How can you come. The video was titled Chinese Cars at Sydney. Just a few hours earlier we'd released something which included Tesla and we were getting all manner of sort of criticism for not, not including them. And we said we can't include them in every single post. Why would we, why would we do that? And then I got, I got, someone criticized me, I think had called me a shill or something, which is nice to have the boot on the other foot frankly, and said, you're not covering Tesla. And they were at the show in Sydney, blah, blah, blah, and really just giving us a really, really hard time. To which I responded, well, here's a video of me saying that Tesla are the EV leader. Here's a video of me unveiling the model. Yeah, here's a video of me doing this. And no response.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

So it could be bots or whatever, but we do get caught in the crossfire of that. But I think it's important to say that we want Tesla to succeed. It's a shame that it's going to get dragged into everything political that's going on around the world. And obviously, particularly after the inauguration, tempers were running really, really, really high. Understandably so. But actually, in Sydney, what was the busiest stand at the show?

[B]

Tesla was. Did really well.

[A]

Yeah, it was Tesla. So it is, you know, we have to do better to, you know, to actually remind us there's a big group of people in the middle and then there's a couple of polls at either end. Very, very pro, very, very anti. Yeah. And as a, as someone who reports on the industry, as an organization, reports in the industry, we have to, you know, try and balance that out in the best way possible. I'm sure we don't always get it, get it right. But from my perspective, it is concerning to see that a company that said it was going to sell 20 million EVs a year by 2030 has now taken that ambition away.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And at the moment, Q1 figures for sales were announced recently and they are down a bit. And actually, I think it's the lowest quarter since 2022.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And actually they might struggle to sell 1.5, 1.6 million cars this year, whereas their peak they were 1.8. So it is concerning because I actually really like Tesla, succeed to see them not doing so well. But let's see how that plays out. I think the quarter two sales will be much more informative because.

[B]

Right. Because of the. Well, there's a new Model Y, Model.

[A]

Y, you know, was people or some people were waiting for that. So I think Q2 will tell us a lot more. And I think, you know, honestly, since we last spoke, I think. I think things have kind of cooled down a little bit and I've even seen Elon Musk sort of start to sort of slightly diverge from Trump on what's going on with the tariffs as well. So it could be. Things could be quite different in a week, but certainly in three or four months, I think things could be quite, quite different again. But we were getting caught in the crossfire of it and we, we don't talk about it a lot because Tesla is now one of many, many companies in the sector. We covered the Model Y a little bit earlier this year. I think Jack really, really likes the car. As I say, it was the most popular vehicle on display at Sydney, the most popular stand, along with Zeekr, which was extraordinary as well, by the way. And then I also got some feedback and I've really quite an interesting conversation with someone Who's, I guess he would say he's very much on the sort of more Tesla fanboy end of things. Pretty interesting conversation with him. And he sort of said, well, you know, you don't cover Tesla very much. Why don't you talk about, you know, the Cyber cab? Why don't you talk about Optimus, et cetera? And I think I sort of said, well, actually our channel's evolved a little bit, but, you know, we talk less now about things that are in the far flung future.

[B]

We talk more about what's actually available.

[A]

Used car, new cars that are available here and now. We've evolved. Everything electric has sort of helped us evolve, I think, to be a business where people want to find out what they can actually get hold of. And honestly, you know, we're less of a future gazing Tomorrow's World channel than we used to be. And I know it's disappointing for some, some people, but obviously things evolve. Every, every business evolves. And for us, you know, Optimus is never the sort of thing we would have covered. Really.

[B]

No.

[A]

And as far as cyber cabs can concern, I mean, cyber truck, Cyber. Another cab. The cab, not the truck. The Robocab. Robotaxi.

[B]

Sorry, the robo taxi. Sorry. Yes.

[A]

In terms of the robo taxi, you know, we, we absolutely believe there should be far fewer cars in the world. Yeah, of course we do. But, you know, Tesla's not the only game in town for, you know, robo taxis. And additionally to that, do you know how hard it's been to get people weaned off combustion cars to electric vehicles?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How hard do you think it's going to be to wean people out of cars with steering? They drive to cars that they don't drive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think the idea that governments and cities and others are just going to regulate, you know, widely. Yeah. Is. Is, is not that imminent. Let's put it that way.

[B]

No. Yes, very.

[A]

Is the world going to change? Is it? Well, it's going to change faster than we think it is, almost certainly. But the reality is that we're very much about technologies that are here and now. So, you know, speak to Tesla as someone who's long been a supporter of Tesla and wants to see it, you know, succeed. But that's not area which we, we cover. Yeah. Regularly. It's not in a, it's not slight or anything like that.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, you know, if you're saying, why aren't we covering Optimus? I mean, we haven't covered Boston Dynamics, who've done incredible Stuff with, you know, battery operated electric robots, you know, that are probably quite good at hunting people down and killing them as well as anything else. But you know, that's not, it's not an area we've done. I mean we're doing. We do electric ground transport and renewable energy. I mean, I don't know, you know, it's just like. Yeah. Anyway, that is, you know, and it is things like, you know, if you, if you are. I've actually filmed in a fully autonomous like a minibus. So like a bus that can carry 12 people that goes along a set route. Well, I mean if, if you think about it, that actually is a more plausible. I mean I think public transport in general is something that we don't cover that much but it's actually far more relevant to what we do. And when you do see it, you know, the new. There's a new electric bus in Brisbane that is just amazing. And it charges from a thing. It's a battery, battery electric, three carriage sort of road tram. I suppose it is, but it's very popular. It goes out to the university and back into the city and looks very modern.

[A]

Well, over the years we've covered it. We've covered a lot of. A lot of companies that have come up with very grand visions. And obviously for us it's tempting to do those because actually do very well on the channel, get a lot of views. But actually a lot of those companies have ceased to exist.

[B]

Ceased to exist. They've got. Yeah. Which is so sad.

[A]

You know, we've covered a vertical takeover landing extensively and I think vertical aerospace still showing great promise, for example. But actually a lot of the VTOL companies have gone. Yeah, we covered Arrival very extensively, if you remember. Arrival gone. And so, you know, from our perspective that has also meant that we are a little bit more cautious about what we cover. You know, things that are here and now is very much where we are as a, as a business. So you know, it's. It is always interesting to look into the future. But I actually think it's quite funny what's happened. We all got very, very excited as an industry about the future, what the potential was. I think we're now the rubber's hitting the road. Actually the future is going to look quite a lot more like the past than maybe we realized still going to be heavily dominated by cars and SUVs. And obviously the mix is horrible there. There's far too many SUVs, far too many big vehicles. Should there be smaller vehicles, lighter vehicles, more shareable vehicles? Yeah, of course there should. Of course they should. But car culture is hardwired in society in a way that is really quite shocking. The idea that we're all going to have jet packs has gone. You know, we have to be realistic about what is going to happen. And so it is, we're entering, we're going through that. We've kind of been through the trough of disillusionment. We're now coming through this slope of enlightenment, whatever it's called. And now we can see what, what technologies people can buy. I mean, we love little microcars. Love the microlino, for example.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it seems to me that the consumer desire to buy really small microcars is perhaps less.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Than we would hope for.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, it might be. That's the reality, in a sense. I actually saw yesterday in Stow on the Wold, a twizzy. A man about my age driving along. Twizzy, big grin on his face, haven't seen one for years. Zooming down, actually breaking the speed limit. I'm going to say that because it's a 20 mile an hour speed limit. There's no way he was doing 20 in a little, in a little market town. But, you know, in a sense it's that thing where you could go to Milan, you know, with your family and you can hire four microlinos for €2 an hour or so. You know that there could be a. This place for that sort of stuff, or you could use them as little Tag would be a brilliant car. If you live in a city and you don't want to own a car, but you can use that when it's raining and you don't and you've got some shopping to carry. Would be magical. I mean, that's a fantastic little machine.

[A]

I absolutely love, love those. I love. And I had a carver for a little while. I loved, I love the whole. But yeah, like you say, it's more. It's obviously very, very obviously now looking back, it's very obviously likely to be European cities, for example, where those kind of technologies thrive as they should, you know, and it's not going to be on the motorways of the, of the USA or Australia or somewhere and the us, you know. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's really interesting to see how the whole, the whole things evolve. But yeah, I mean, Tesla has done extraordinary things. We just wouldn't be here.

[B]

No, we wouldn't be where we are now without that.

[A]

Without Tesla. Yeah, it just wouldn't be here. And I suspect, you know, as, as the, you know, precursor. We will be saying in 10 years, we just wouldn't be here without BYD and, and China's influence, which is already huge. Huge.

[B]

And I think the other.

[A]

Hopefully Tesla will still be part of that.

[B]

Yeah, part of that.

[A]

But that's, that's why we actually, we were concerned that sometimes if their sales aren't as good, I'd rather see them do well. But obviously it has been a tricky few months for reasons that plenty of other people have spilled column ink over. We don't need to talk about it anymore. Everyone knows exactly what we're talking about.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, one point I'd like to make is that, you know, certainly my enthusiasm for breakthrough technologies and new companies trying new things was very much the sort of first, even possibly 10 years of the fully charged show was like, oh my God, there's the. Oh, wow, look, light year and, oh, they're doing that. And this German company, you know, you know, they're making cars with solar panels on and all these things and they were really exciting. But also there wasn't much else. You know, there was Tesla, there was Nissan Leaf. We've done that. There was the Renault Zoe. Yeah, done that. There's the racy Renault Zoe. The one Renault Zoe with the new battery. There was the second generation. There wasn't a great. There is thousands of cars now from hundreds and hundreds of different manufacturers that we can do every week. We could do a brand new car that's come out somewhere, that's an electric car that does over 200 miles, that costs less money, that's lighter, blah, blah. That's where the Focus is because that's what's actually happening. You know, it's a completely different world.

[A]

I mean, we had Zeeka at the Sydney show. Their cars were just unbelievable. Incredible. Couldn't believe it. You couldn't move to, to get near those cars. And then in London this week, for example, you know, there's quite a strong, you know, group of companies from, from China and elsewhere there, you know, so of course will be there. But then you also see companies like Volvo and mg. Yeah. And then on the other hand, you see people like, you know, Chang'an and yeah. Omoda and companies like that. So it's, it is a fascinating time. But yeah, it's moving now to the demand bit, you know, driving demand, people in these cars and buying them and from, from my standpoint, you know, it's been amazing to go on that journey, but I wish, I wish things would settle down, but I just don't think that's going to happen.

[B]

No.

[A]

We live in a different, highly polarized time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And EVs are going to. They're going to succeed, but it will.

[B]

Be against some serious headwinds or whatever. Yeah. We've done. We've done an hour because I thought that's classic. I thought there's no way we can talk about these, you know, because the list, our list of topics, very short. We've managed to do an hour, which has been great. And also I just want to say that if you're listening to this and you're in the southeast of the uk, or even the northwest of France or the Netherlands or Belgium, come along to London to the. To excel in the next three days, in a few days time after you listen to this. Because the shows are. I mean, what. The one thing I know now, I finally accepted Dan, and you've been through this with me, that I always thought no one will come, that we're going to. All this effort for these shows. I've. I've accepted now after, particularly after Sydney, that people do come. And I mean, I remember even last year, the first year at xl and we were kind of anxious. It was a new location, it was different, it was all, you know, is anyone going to come? And I did go out and look at the queue before we opened on the first day and it was big. So they are amazing.

[A]

The excitement of the cars is not unhelpful. Yes, it is very good, you know. So the new MG5S is going to be at the show for test drives next this week.

[B]

I've not even seen it. That's what's amazing.

[A]

BYD Sea Lion. Yeah, The Verizon vat. I mean, literally, I could list on.

[B]

And on and on. Yeah.

[A]

But we've talked a lot about China, we've talked a lot about America. Just one last thing. I say Renault 5 is going to be there. And I do, and I do think Renault have absolutely nailed it. A car that petrol heads and motorheads alike will like. And also there's going to be loads of other attractions at the show, including a zap heap kids challenge that we're running as well.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

In anticipation of us filming Zapi in the summer. Very exciting. It's going to go ahead as Dan's putting his thumbs up.

[B]

All right, very good.

[A]

But we'll save that, save that announcement and that detail for next time we talk, maybe.

[B]

Yeah. Brill. Dan, you're a genius. All I can say is I know I wouldn't be here doing this if it wasn't for you, let alone anything else. I know you say that I started it, but my goodness, I didn't make it do what it's doing now. It's completely amazing on a huge amount down to your.

[A]

Well, should we keep doing it?

[B]

I think we can do it for a bit longer. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I should also mention the team, the whole team behind the live shows and the. And the video shows are amazing. They're busy today. You know, they're all flitting about all over the place, going to see amazing things. So that's great. So do come along to the live show if you can, and also do subscribe to this wonderful podcast or tell your friends about it. Because. Because we have a very wide variety of people. It's not always me and Dan Watley. There's some great guests coming up, I know for a fact. And we have some really interesting people that come on the show. I'm not saying you're not interesting, Dan. I'm just saying that there's a wide variety of folks, but that's it. As always, if you have been, thank you for watching.