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Triumphant Australian Success Story Hurt by Trump's Tariffs? Janus Electric CEO interviewed
00:58:16
Fresh from the Australian election, Robert Llewellyn talks electrons with Janus' CEO, Lex Forsyth, about what they've achieved. Plus the opportunity to 'clean up' in the commercial vehicle market, and how Trump's tariff war has temporarily weakened...
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- [00:00]
Lex Forsyth
Foreign.
- [00:11]
Robert Llewellyn
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Fully Charged show podcast right here on the Everything Electric channel. Oh yes. Now one thing I can say early on is that there's probably going to be. Because that's kind of confusing series of titles, there's going to be a little bit of simplification the middle of this year as we do some, some. I don't think we're doing rebranding, we're doing some clever stuff. It's all, all above my pay grade. Anyway, this episode of the Fully Charged Show Podcast is timely, I think it's fair to say so. One of the amazing projects that we've seen on the Fully Charged Show a couple of times now is a company in Australia called Janus Trucks. They convert big, big, heavy, really big, heavy, heavy duty diesel trucks to electric drive. And they've developed a system, a battery swapping system which is incredible because it's on such a huge scale. I mean the batteries are big. I think they're around 350 kilowatt hours per pack and there's two of them. So it's huge on either side of a truck. And this is a big, what I would call an articulated lorry in old fashioned English or a semi truck. Those sort of scale, really enormous. And in Australia they're much bigger than anything we can have in Europe and they sometimes have an extra trailer on the back. They're just huge. And of course they're so much cleaner, so much more efficient, so much cheaper to run, so much less maintenance needed. Massive, massive list of advantages. I'll let Lex explain that. So we're talking to, I'm talking to Lex Forsyth who is from Janus Trucks, just an amazing guy. I've interviewed him a couple of times. Such a lovely dude as well. He's a really nice man, really interesting. Really got the picture of what we need to do to decarbonize heavy duty road transport. We all rely on it. You know, everything we've got, everything we wear, everything we buy, every computer, every camera, every book is going to be shipped in a truck at some point in its life. And so, you know, we're all very involved in that. All the food, we, all that stuff, it can be electrified, you know, Electrifying a long haul aircraft, incredibly difficult. No one knows how to do it. Electrifying a long haul truck, yeah, easy peasy. Get on with it. Just get on with it. Which is exactly what Janus are doing. They're not talking about it, they're doing it. And it's very, very Exciting. That's enough. I'll just go straight into it. Please welcome onto the Fully Charged show podcast Lex Forsyth from Janus Trucks.
- [02:47]
Duracell Energy Representative
We've teamed up with Duracell Energy to celebrate their brilliant ecosystem of home energy products and their platinum homeowner offer by giving away a Duracell bunny to win. Simply watch to the end and answer a question about the Fully Charged show.
- [03:04]
Robert Llewellyn
Lex, it's really good to see you and thanks very much for joining us and for staying up as late as you have. Although it looks like you're in the middle of a sunny day in Australia.
- [03:14]
Lex Forsyth
From your the backdrop of beautiful downtown Mount Gambier. One of our logging trucks, one of our great customers down there that we delivered back in 2023. So yeah, it's a beautiful shot.
- [03:27]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah, it's a great shot and I think it's worth, for people who don't know what you do and haven't seen the episodes we've made about you, I think it's worth pointing out there's no smoke coming out of that truck. There's no diesel smoke. It's very quiet.
- [03:40]
Lex Forsyth
Very quiet. Fully electric swappable battery, fastest recharging in the world. 620 kilowatts in four in four minutes. So that it's traveled. That truck's, it's now 10 years old. Came to us at the beginning of 20, at the end of 2022.
- [03:58]
Robert Llewellyn
Right.
- [03:59]
Lex Forsyth
And they got it back in March 23rd and it's now done over 100,000 kilometers and about 850 battery swaps.
- [04:06]
Robert Llewellyn
Wow. So it's done 100,000 kilometers since you've changed, since you converted it.
- [04:11]
Lex Forsyth
Correct. Yeah, yeah.
- [04:12]
Robert Llewellyn
And, and those kilometers are not just tootling down the shops to get some milk, they're pulling huge enormous trailers of logs and heavy stuff.
- [04:20]
Lex Forsyth
So it's a 72 ton gross combination mass. So it's, and it's in a, you know, it's in a severe application, it's in logging. Logging applications as you can see is dirt roads in and out of the forestry. Yeah. But if you think about the ultimate carbon sink and then delivering logs is a zero emission like this is all sustainable logging right in the Green Triangle in Victoria and South Australia. And you know, you've got now got electric vehicles delivering the logs out of the forestry. So it's just another step of the ultimate carbon sink in sustainable forestry.
- [04:55]
Robert Llewellyn
I mean it is, what you're doing, I think is truly remarkable. I mean we've been, we've always had a very positive, you know, response when people see what you're up to, the two shows we've done with you, but I mean it, every time I see you, it just, you've kind of done another step. So would you mind taking us through the. I mean we've, you and I have talked about this on the show, but for podcast listeners might not be aware of this, that. Can you tell us the kind of the journey that those trucks go on? And because I think those, all those statistics are fascinating how many miles a truck does in comparison with a car. So we're all used to cars, trucks, a very different beast.
- [05:33]
Lex Forsyth
Yeah, it is. And it's, you know, what people don't realize. It's sort of the average age of trucks around the world are about 12 to 13 years of age. So most trucks are put into very high duty cycle applications. So your trucks will do. Before they need a diesel engine rebuild, they do anywhere between 800,000 to a million kilometers in about five years. At that time, they need to do a diesel engine rebuild, which typically is a, a major overhaul. You've got also componentry with radiators and turbos and water pumps and all of those things that go with, with the ICE engine. What we do is. And what if our fleet customers are doing, they're bringing their trucks to us somewhere between 5 to 7 years of age and we're swapping out the diesel engine for a full, what we call essentially our Janus conversion module, which is an electric crate motor with a transmission radiator package and all the services needed to run the truck. And they go from being a diesel truck to a full, full electric powered prime mover. And the key difference with Janus is we operate a swappable battery and we convert OEMS trucks. So we've converted five different OEMs products around the world globally from Volvo, Kenworth, Mack, Western Star and Freightliner. So across pretty much the major truck manufacturers. And we give those vehicles another 10 to 15 years of life by going to that electric conversion. So essentially it's the ultimate recycling of existing infrastructure and taking it from the old technology to the new technology. And hence the name Janus. You know, it's the Roman God of transition and safe passage. And you've got to look back to go forwards and forward to go back. So bringing those two things together and bringing it to fruition today.
- [07:18]
Robert Llewellyn
And I mean, I think one of the things that, you know, I've certainly learned from you and from other companies that are converting older vehicles, particularly trucks, is that the underlying sort of skeleton of the truck is perfect, you know, even after all those miles. It's not like a car. You always think if a car had done a million miles, it's going to be pretty shabby. But a truck is in, you know, very, I mean, they're very, very steadily built in the first place. I guess that's the big difference, isn't it? They're much beefier machines.
- [07:50]
Lex Forsyth
Yeah, they're designed to, they're designed and engineered to last. And you know, when the average age globally of trucks is between 12 to 13 years age, it means you've still got trucks that are potentially 25 years of age running around and then obviously new trucks. And I think, you know, the key fundamental is, is that the, the truck manufacturers that can only produce 5% at maximum capacity of the world, of the truck fleet in the world. And so to, to even get close to hitting zero emissions targets and, and reducing the transport industry's carbon footprint, we needed to start five years ago building every truck as zero emissions to even get close to it. So it's not going to only just be done with new trucks. You've got to convert the older trucks. And when you think about it like, the older trucks also have different euro emission standards. So you know, trucks that are 15 years of age are typically Euro 4 and Euro 5 standards. So they're even worse for emitting, you know, they're higher, emitting pollution coming out of those diesel engines. So why not convert the older trucks to electric and give them that second life and get the higher emissions trucks off the road sooner rather than just thinking you've got to replace them with new or go to Euro 6 truck, Euro 6 and Euro 7, go electric and repurpose that vehicle and get it off the road soon.
- [09:15]
Robert Llewellyn
So I would imagine the, I mean, I know you've dealt with this, but the resistance to that from say big trucking companies or big, you know, big companies that run a fleet of trucks is I guess a, the cost of the, you know, of the transformation of it. And also then they'll go, oh well, there's no charging infrastructure, we can't use them. We, you know, we do long haul. You know, all those, you know, I can, they're even boring. The list of excuses, some of which are completely legitimate, some of which are just based on, you know, misinformation. But I mean, how do you respond with that? Because if you've got to rebuild a truck engine after it's done a million kilometers, I'm guessing that's quite an expensive job and quite A big job.
- [09:56]
Lex Forsyth
It is, it is. And that's the thing that they don't realize is the, and once they start to understand the efficiency of electric motors and the reduced maintenance, you know, we've got trucks in Sydney now running around and when the drivers first hop in them, you know they've got 500 brake applications for the shift. They're now down sub 200 brake applications for the same shift because they can use the regenerative braking. So there's a hidden maintenance saving just in trailer brakes and truck brakes by being able to harness that energy back into the battery and that capital that they're going to spend on the diesel engine rebuild is already allocated to be spent if you spend a little bit more converted to electric. The differentiation we're seeing between an 8 to 12 month payback on the differentiation in capital just between the diesel engine rebuild and, and the conversion to electric and then that savings ongoing as well too. But what we're finding is really interesting is a lot of our fleets clients are now saying, what's your pathway to sustainability? What's your, how do we get to zero emissions? What, what, what, what journey you're on? And you know, the challenge in particularly in Australia and a lot of jurisdictions is that, you know, multiple trial combinations, the OEMs haven't catered and haven't delivered a product that can do, you know, over 50 tons gross combination mass. So you know, where you've got big freight tasks, where, you know, Australia, the tyranny of distance in Australia is huge. It's, it's about having a product that they can do. They can, they can get to zero emissions now and have a pathway, but also using the assets they've already got, they typically paid these trucks off over five years. So rather than invest more money into the old technology, spend a little bit more, put the new technology into it and see the savings and the greater uptime. It's, you know, fleets want trucks on the road longer.
- [11:49]
Robert Llewellyn
But I mean, I think the other, you know, very large saving has got to be effectively on fuel. I mean where we, we came to see your battery swapping thing, I mean that's powered by solar. So the fuel, you know, it is wrong always to say the fuel is free, but it's very, very cheap. You know, if you've got to invest in a big solar array and, and all the equipment that goes with it to transform it, but it's still in comparison having your own oil well and refinery, it's much cheaper.
- [12:17]
Lex Forsyth
It is, it is. And the energy is More efficient. Like if you look at calorific value of fuel and convert that to kilowatt hours and do the conversions across, you know, you're starting with a diesel engine, you're only seeing about 32 to 33% of the of the energy at the drive wheels of the truck from an energy efficiency point of view. And you know, then when you start to get smart and do behind the meter, rooftop solar, wind or even look at when you shape your charge depending on what grid and infrastructure connections you've got, there's some really good opportunities to create a good baseload for more investment into renewable energy but also help stabilize grids when there's a lack of demand during the day. Because most grids around the world, like most grids are sort of 4pm to 9pm they're at maximum capacity of a nighttime and then the rest of the time the grid infrastructure is underutilized or only running at about 30% capacity. So there's a, there's a good way to utilize existing infrastructure and charge batteries when renewables in production. Because the biggest problem most, most grids around the world have have is when renewables in production there's no demand for that energy. And either you've got to have static batteries taking or you're trying to adjust transmission and generation to meet the flexible demand. Whereas this solution solves all of those issues and it's cheap and affordable and that's the big thing. We've got to start to look at this cost of living pressures everywhere globally and there's a heavy reliance in a lot of countries for imported fuel. Australia, 95% of all Australia's fuel is imported. There's not many countries around the world that have all their own oil production to feed transport. And in Australia transport's the second biggest contributor to gdp. It's our second largest industry behind mining. So it's a huge sector that's ripe for disruption. And you know, I don't think people realize how hard it is going to be to decarbonize transport if we don't look at innovative solutions and, and start this process now. Because it's not a simple task to do.
- [14:31]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah, yeah. I mean it's simple, Rob. Yeah, you have made it simple. Yeah, I mean that it is that sort of the excitement in a way of the complete transition. Because if you were just, you know, in a sense even for a truck company that has no interest in solar and generating their own fuel, there's still a saving there. But the fact is that the kind of the, the quantum leap that you're going to get if you have a base, which is, this is why it's kind of different to domestic vehicles, to home, you know, to your own car, because you can, you're going to have a, a truck depot which has the potential for really large amounts of solar heavy duty industrial infrastructure. You know, that's what it is. It's not a garden, it's, it's a, it's a factory or a, you know, a big thing. And that's where it becomes very different, doesn't it? When the whole approach is different.
- [15:25]
Lex Forsyth
Yeah, the whole. Exactly right. I mean, if you think about all the industrial areas and rooftop warehouses, rooftop solar that can be on warehouses at all these industrial parks globally around the world.
- [15:37]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah.
- [15:38]
Lex Forsyth
You know, there's no reason why that can't have rooftop solar installed coming into a micro grid within that industrial park that helps power the industrial park, but also feeds the trucks with energy that's coming to and from those places to deliver freight and pick freight up out of those locations. That is a very simple solution and it makes sense. You're not, you're not putting solar arrays out in the middle of beautiful nature and those sorts of things. It's in the industrial area and it's a second revenue stream for industrial complexes as well too, from being able to provide energy directly into the transport sector.
- [16:15]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah. And I think that we should, I just want to make sure that people who are watching and listening this understand that you're not. You know, if you have a truck depot and you've got a Janus truck there, it drives in, needs, it needs charging. You're not plugging in.
- [16:33]
Lex Forsyth
No.
- [16:34]
Robert Llewellyn
I think this is a really important point. You know, you actually swap the tape, the whole or two huge batteries out of the truck and you put it in a unit that, I mean, it's such a kind of simple but clever system. And then you take full batteries out of there and put them back in the truck and that. Well, I mean, at the moment that's taking around what, four minutes to do to swap that over.
- [16:56]
Lex Forsyth
Yeah. Four minutes to re energize the truck with 620 kilowatts. So that two 310 kilowatt batteries on either side of the truck simply just take them out the forklift, slide the other batteries in. It's like a big cordless drill where you're just swapping your batteries.
- [17:10]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah.
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Lex Forsyth
And then the truck continues on its way. And the beauty about that is, you know, and this is where genus is very different. To a lot of the OEMs is we've created a, we've looked at it differently. We've gone how do we electrify the transport industry and keep their normal operations and what they're used to as part of our process so that we're not trying to develop technology and say right now you adapted into your operation. It's. Well, you need to be able to. We need to be able to double shift a truck. So if we can swap the batteries at the end of the shift and the truck continues on, it's not sitting on a charger for three hours waiting to re energize. It's a huge saving for the fleet. It's the same about being able to shape charge and work within the constraints of grids and electrical connections so that you can optimize that infrastructure as well too and utilize it to its best effect. Yeah. And, and that's the key difference with Janus. We've approached it from a, a whole solution and I think if you look at traditional OEMs and, and this is where they struggle to a certain degree is they've never had to think about energy supply for the vehicles they sell. They make it run on diesel, give it to the fleet operator and say go and get your diesel wherever you want.
- [18:21]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah.
- [18:22]
Lex Forsyth
Now they go, well let's make it with a battery on it and it's fixed and you can plug it in wherever you want. But that plug in infrastructure is not there and, and it's. And it. And I suppose where transport struggles at the moment is with plug in vehicles in particular is everyone's thought okay, we just plug cars in, that's fine. But yeah, when you think about the energy, you know we're, we're putting in average sort of 500 kilowatts, so half a megawatt of energy every charge cycle. That's not a small amount of energy to try and put in quickly.
- [18:53]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah.
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Lex Forsyth
So it's about how do you think through that process and then create something that the industry can utilize and get it to a common size energy source that it works on multiple trucks because right. There's common energy used for the transport industry now it's diesel. You don't go to a service station. So I want Volvo diesel or I want MAM diesel or Scania diesel. You just get diesel. And what we've created is you just get the Janus battery. It fits on those trucks. So. And it is a common energy source. And that's, that's the, the approach we've got to try and take is how we bring all that together and work it, work to the best solution for the industry and for the electrical infrastructure as well.
- [19:34]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah, because that's. I mean, I was thinking about you. I've just come back from China. I was in and I went out in a Neo ET9 electric car, very luxurious, electric. God, it was really nice. I sat in the back out of choice. It was really comfy. But. But we went to a battery swapping station and we swapped the batteries and that's very automated now and it takes a takes. We, we timed. It took 3 minutes, 30 seconds to swap a hundred kilowatt hour battery out and you can't really see anything, but you feel a bit of a jiggle when you're in the car. It kind of, you know, it's a bit of a joke. But what is impressive with that is, you know, that you could set that up as a sort of, you know, a proof of concept. And here we've got a battery, which is what they did a few years ago. They have now done77.0 million battery swaps that come.
- [20:24]
Lex Forsyth
Wow.
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Robert Llewellyn
I mean, when, when the boss told us that, we, we kept thinking his Chinese isn't good enough. He means 17. But then the translator was saying 7. He went, no, 70 million. That's a lot of battery cells. And what that's shown is that they're. I mean, this is why I'm leading to a question. But what's interesting is there's two ways of revenue for the company. One is that you swap the battery and you pay for that battery, you pay for the electricity in that battery. But the other is while there are other batteries in the charging in the battery swapping station, they're buying and selling electricity on the open market in China. They buy it when it's cheap, they sell it when it's expensive. So like a grid balance, is that a step you can see coming for Janus and for truck battery swapping stations?
- [21:12]
Lex Forsyth
Yeah, definitely. Look, everyone says to us, oh, you're a truck conversion company. I go, no, no, we're not a truck conversion company. We're an energy company. We're building one of the largest virtual power networks in Australia and eventually globally with our swappable batteries because you've got to utilize the asset. And there's no reason why you shouldn't be utilizing the battery asset in that power trading piece as well too. You know, our next lot of charges coming out will be a 250 kilowatt charger inverter. So we can Utilize the batteries in, you know, again, harvest energy during the day when solar's in production at lower costs and invert it back into the grid. And the big thing around this is grid stabilization and also having a second revenue stream for your battery assets. And that's where we're heading with genus as well too. And the beauty of it is our ecosystem software platform. We know when trucks need energy because everything's being tracked, all the data's coming in so we can optimize and we know where they're using energy, when they need energy, when they're going to need a battery swap, what the grid wholesale pricing is doing and it becomes a very unique solution. And that's how you've got to look at it. You've got to be able to take all the inputs in because at the moment with the plug in vehicle model it's very hard to get optimization and utilization of your charge, charging point because you don't trucks coming and that's, that's the, the difference in the way we've approached it.
- [22:39]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah, One of the things that we witnessed in Shanghai at the auto show was the advances in battery technology in different battery chemistries. I mean one of the, and their real key thing they were really banging on about was, was safety. I mean it's now illegal to make a battery in China that can catch fire. So they're doing all these new battery chemistries that are, you know, you basically they were smashing batteries to bits, fully charged batteries with huge hydraulic rams squashing them, driving a spike through and still nothing happened, you know, so yeah, they were, I mean, so. But that's the great advantage you have. You've bought a expensive truck with a built in battery that you recharge with the cable, that's your battery, whereas yours, you can presumably take out those boxes, refit them with a different battery chemistry and a different software and upgrade.
- [23:31]
Lex Forsyth
That's it. We're completely agnostic to battery cell chemistry as it, as it evolves. And this is the really interesting thing is the, the technological advancements in battery cells is going ahead in leaps and bounds and this is where, you know, this is the change that's coming. We're in a technology revolution and particularly in battery cells, that is where the development is moving forward. We're looking at sodium ion now, which has no thermal issues, very stable chemistry, long cycle life and a great energy density. That's the key difference. And it provides a secondary market for the batteries as well too to go into static storage after they've been in trucks as well, we have a secondary life and that's one of the reasons why we're going into power trading with our charging infrastructures. Because there'll be a second life of these batteries when as you state of charge discharge, it starts to decrease over the life cycle of the battery. That reaches a point where you'll go, okay, well, it makes sense for us to just put that into a static application where we're not trying to get range, but we want to be able to discharge 500 kilowatts out of that battery in a very easy way.
- [24:46]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah. And I mean. Yes, that's the other thing that I was like to sort of underline is the strain that a battery is under in a vehicle is hugely more than one that's running, you know, a, even a factory or a house or a housing estate or whatever, or an office. You know, that's, that's a little dribble coming out of it. Then when you put your foot hard down in a big heavy truck that's used, that's, that's giving a lot of oomph.
- [25:10]
Lex Forsyth
It's using, using more. I mean, our, our maximum draw rate's about 0.8 C, so it's still more relatively low.
- [25:17]
Robert Llewellyn
Right.
- [25:17]
Lex Forsyth
In comparison. But in, and, and I think that's the beauty of, you know, trucks. You can put more battery mass on the truck, whereas a car, you, you know, you're limited. If you look at the Tesla or any electric car, you know, 300 kilowatt motor and 100 kilowatt hour battery, you've got high C discharge rates.
- [25:33]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah.
- [25:34]
Lex Forsyth
When you're at full load, whereas with trucks, we're sort of 620kW on average, we draw about 0.4 C to 0.5 C on an average discharge cycle. So it's reasonably friendly because of the size of your battery mass that we've got on the vehicle. But when you do, when you do need that energy, you do need it. So.
- [25:52]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah, yeah. So the big difference that I can see from my experience in Australia and the UK is, is the actual truck. So you have bigger trucks, your bigger and heavier trucks with more wheels in Australia than we do. When I came back from Australia this time, I kept looking at trucks, counting how many wheels they had. But, but. So you have quite a, a lot of American trucks that are built in America, in Australia, which we don't have here, or very much.
- [26:21]
Lex Forsyth
Yes. Australia is a 50:50 market of European manufacturers and American manufacturers, Volvo and Kenworth. So Kenworth is a American, North American brand Owned by the Packard family, which is. You probably would see them as daft prime movers.
- [26:38]
Robert Llewellyn
Oh, right. Oh, that's the same. I didn't know that was the same company. Okay. Yeah, we do see them a lot. Yeah.
- [26:43]
Lex Forsyth
And you'd have Volvo and Scania pretty much in, in Europe. Europe. So Australia is about 50. 50 European manufacturers and, and North American. And so, you know, it's an interesting thing, the OEM say that they do a lot of their testing in Australia because if you can't break it in Australia, you're not going to break it anywhere else in the world. And, and then obviously we, you know, we, we. One of the reasons why we've chosen, what we've done is, is so that we can show that we can do it on both manufacturers. So our system works on European trucks and on North American trucks. So they're the next. You know, they're two of the largest markets in the world for Class 8 trucks, particularly in Europe and in North America. 4 million in North America and about 6 million in Europe.
- [27:29]
Robert Llewellyn
Wow.
- [27:30]
Lex Forsyth
Including. Okay. So big numbers of trucks.
- [27:33]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah.
- [27:33]
Lex Forsyth
And, and traveling vast distances. But you know, the great thing about the European trucks is they're only towing one trailer. So to electrify them is really easy. It's not a. Right, not a challenge. It's it. And you know, most of them are four by two applications and a very long wheelbase. So you can get a good sized battery in between. In between the steer axle and the drive axle on a, on a, on a European truck.
- [27:56]
Robert Llewellyn
And I mean all the trucks that I've seen you convert. I'm just trying to think now because you'll immediately tell me of one that I've seen that isn't like that, but are what I would call articulated. So with a tractor unit at the front and a trailer at the back. Is that, is that the case? Is, are those the only ones you, you do generally?
- [28:13]
Lex Forsyth
Is that we typically we do another thing what they call a truck and dog, which is just, you know, you've got like a body truck, then it tows a dog trailer as well.
- [28:22]
Robert Llewellyn
Yes, yes.
- [28:23]
Lex Forsyth
Yeah. But the majority of what we do is prime movers or what they call a class A truck.
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Robert Llewellyn
Right.
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Lex Forsyth
Which is typically all your articulated vehicles. We haven't gone down to the smaller trucks yet, but you know, we, we, we're trying. We, we, we thought let's tackle the hardest part of the industry. Let's, let's try and tackle the biggest polluting part of the industry.
- [28:44]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah.
- [28:45]
Lex Forsyth
Because the bigger trucks use more Diesel. So, yeah, more diesel particulate, more pollution in the air. Let's. Let's start there. That. And, and if we can prove it works there, then it's easier to come back than it is to go forward. Because what you learn on the larger trucks you can apply on the smaller trucks. And not necessarily what you learn on smaller trucks can you apply on the larger trucks because of the differentiation. So, because.
- [29:07]
Robert Llewellyn
Can you just do it? Let's just very briefly go back to these, because I have no idea and I think you've told me this before, but I'm very proud that I've forgotten for real. But what kind of mpg or kilometers per liter a big truck does when it's burning diesel? I mean, because we know. I mean, I sort of got a very good idea and most people have a vague idea of a car, what a car will do to the gallon or to the liter, but trucks has got to be very different.
- [29:34]
Lex Forsyth
Yeah. So the truck that's behind me in this photo, about 1.6 km to the litre. So, yeah, so it's, it's fairly heavy on fuel. Like we've got. We've got one customer that does one kilometre per litre. Right. So one for one, because they're towing three and four trials and we've seen some doing 900 meters to a litre of diesel. So, you know, very, very much varies. I mean, most of the European trucks will be getting that 2.1, 2.2 kilometers to the liter, sometimes 2.5 depending on freight, the, you know, load task and weight of the vehicle. But it's interesting, the aerodynamics, particularly in electric vehicles, play a huge, huge factor in energy consumption. It was when we were doing the triple road train in South Australia with BHP and Cube. We're loading to 170 odd tons and towing three trailers. And it was interesting, they had 20 foot shipping containers of copper concentrate in the middle of them. And so you had five gaps of re engagement of air when we. And it was interesting when, when we took the containers off and just ran it with nothing on the trailers, you know, it used about 2.8 kilowatt hours to the kilometer. Towing 3 trial is empty, obviously.
- [30:53]
Robert Llewellyn
Right.
- [30:53]
Lex Forsyth
When we put the empty containers on it, it went to nearly 4.5 kilowatt hours to the kilometer just with the empty containers on. We loaded them and it went to five. So, you know, it was a factor of 0.5 of a kilowatt per kilometer just by putting weight on it, whereas the wind resistance was the bigger thing causing that, causing the Reduction, you know, the consumption of energy. So it's interesting how those dynamics play.
- [31:21]
Robert Llewellyn
A huge part because that's totally counterintuitive. You would think the more load you put on it, the more energy it's going to use because it's got to move that mass. But I guess once it's moving, what you're then dealing with, I mean, it's going to be harder presumably for it to go from a standing start to, I don't want 50k, you know, with a load on. But it's. But once it's there, it's then got wind resistance to deal with. Is that, is that the basic story?
- [31:45]
Lex Forsyth
It's the wind. It's the wind resistance, but it's also, it shows just the efficiency of the electric motor is that once it gets the mass rolling, it becomes a very efficient way to keep it rolling and moving, moving down the road. But it was interesting that the weight didn't play as big a factor as what we thought it was. More wind resistance than the weight causing the, causing the, causing the consistent event.
- [32:08]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah, because then the other, the other aspect then is because you're. When I last saw you, you were in your original workshop, which is, you know, it's a big thing. It's not that it's little, it's big, but you're going to, you're moving to a much bigger facility, like a big factory, to, to be able to convert more.
- [32:27]
Lex Forsyth
Yeah, we've moved into the new assembly facility.
- [32:29]
Robert Llewellyn
You have already moved in?
- [32:30]
Lex Forsyth
Okay, yeah, we moved about two weeks after the Everything Electric show in Australia. We moved. So we're back over there and in production. And it's, it's great. It's the facilities about 10 times the size of what we are in. And at full, full capacity, we'll produce 400 trucks a year there and. And roughly around 600 dealer conversion kits a year there as well, to, to ship out to our different dealers around, around Australia and in the US as well.
- [33:01]
Robert Llewellyn
All right, because that's the thing that I, you know, I was intrigued about with you is the recent shenanigans. I'm going to put that the most polite way of describing it from the, you know, the administration in, in the usa, just utterly baffling. And I think the thing is, and everyone, when I hear, I've actually started listening to the Economist podcast to try and make. Head on to. What is great is really clever people who teach economics at universities, they go, I don't know what's going on. You know, we're not Alone in being slightly confused about it because, you know, there's other economic activities that have gone on that I just don't understand. But clearly lots of people do. This one is unique, the chaos. But is that directly affecting you or not yet. Or it might, I guess you don't know.
- [33:49]
Lex Forsyth
Well, we've been doing our capital raise. So we're publicly listening Janice on the Australian Stock Exchange and Right. A week after we have announced the initial public offering through the RTA process, he's come out and made that announcement and.
- [34:10]
Robert Llewellyn
Right.
- [34:10]
Lex Forsyth
It spooked investors in institutions because the uncertainty in the market made it very challenging for them to go, okay, well do we invest in things? Don't we invest in things? And I think the biggest challenge that it's done is a lot of our impact investment funds and superannuation funds, they're all judged on a quarter. They're not judged on a longer term vision. And building, you know, looking at something on a three or a five year horizon. They're always looking at well, how do I make sure my quarter is profitable and I don't have any dips in my portfolio. And the challenge, what that does is especially for businesses like ours is, you know, we are in that building commercialization and growing a manufacturing business here in Australia. You're not profitable day one. It's as you scale and there's a pathway to it over the next eight months. But no, it's made it very challenging for impact investors to be a part of it. And that's where we're looking out to the retail sector and to the smaller investors to say, right, this is a time to back something that's unique to a country. This is something that can work globally and Janus will spread globally around the world. But it needs the help of the smaller investor to come along for the journey that believe in what we need to do and believe in the journey of where Janice is going. So tariffs, it's another interesting piece that, you know, we have some componentry that comes out of China. So it's now trying to work out what the tariff rate will be if we're exporting to the U.S. do we need to factor in the level of Chinese componentry in there? So, you know, Australia at the moment we believe has a 10% tariff with the US and from other information we've been told is that the Chinese tariffs at 130%. So essentially any of the Chinese componentry in our vehicle that goes to the US will need to have 140% tariff applied to that piece of the componentry. So it, it's a very much a mess that you've got to try and step through. But you know, the first piece we've got to do is get, get the investment set to, to, to be able to capitalize and grow the Janus business. And that's the big thing that we're looking for for you know, the investors that want to be a part of this journey.
- [36:38]
Robert Llewellyn
Because I just want to, you know, I think it's worth underlining the fact that your customer base as is at the moment is one, very satisfied and two, I'm assuming it is still growing. There's more people interested in converting their.
- [36:51]
Lex Forsyth
Trucks and we've got 142 contracted orders for what we've got today. And we haven't gone out and done sales and marketing. You know, we, we, we, we've built, put everything into the product. Yeah. And let the product speak for itself. Yeah. Where, where it's going. We've now got a couple of clients in South Australia that have won work based on using the Janus technology as their solution and even one government contract down there that's been written in that a certain part of the freight task must utilize the Janus battery swapping solution because they want zero emissions vehicles delivering that componentry into a tunneling project in South Australia. So it's very interesting even, even the construction companies that are building tunnels, they're looking at going well, can we, how can we, how can we put more electrification into the vehicles that are running in and out of the tunnel while we're in construction? Because of the fumes that people are breathing in. In tunnel approach.
- [37:50]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah.
- [37:51]
Lex Forsyth
Projects. So. Yeah, yeah.
- [37:53]
Robert Llewellyn
Oh, I mean that. Because that's the frustration is, and I really feel it for you is that, is that, it's that step, isn't it? That is the really difficult one because you've got the orders, you've got people who really want to want your product. You've got people who, they don't have to believe in it. They can actually drive the truck and see, oh, okay, it works. It does the job that we want it to do. There's no belief system. There's some facts and there's some data and you know, but then to the kind of investment needed to ramp up to get to that higher level of production. I mean presumably what you're, what you need money for is to build more infrastructure that allows you to make more battery boxes, more conversions, all the rest of it.
- [38:36]
Lex Forsyth
Yeah. It's inventory, it's charging infrastructure Additional batteries, you know, some upgrades to the workshop with overhead cranes to speed up assembly line processes, those sorts of things. And then as you scale, you've got to be able to hold a certain amount of inventory to be able to meet your production numbers every day. So there's that build up to that process of starting up a manufacturing plant and then once it gets into rhythm, then it just continues to evolve and it self funds itself. But it's that initial startup. And you know, the interesting thing in Australia is that we haven't yet seen support from the federal government and some of the grant bodies. They've, they've been giving a lot of support to OEM manufactured but not, not where we're at. And we're hoping soon that they, they start to realize that, you know, if we, if we want to build product in Australia and, and I think it's a lot of countries around the world is, you know, support, support what you do want and tax what you don't want. It's very simple. Yeah. And you know, there's no reason why Janus can't be building trucks in Europe, can't be building trucks in North America because the solution is being. We're building the solution so it can be picked up and easily put in different jurisdictions.
- [39:53]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah.
- [39:54]
Lex Forsyth
To help with this decarbonization and zero emissions journey that we're all on.
- [39:59]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah. And I mean that is, you know, in a sense that is what the whole, all the tariff things are, which is what the confusion is, is that there's an underlying drive behind those tariffs which I think is very positive is that we have sort of shrugged off manufacturing in, in North America and Europe and Australia. You know, when I first came to Australia, there were still working car factories there that made cars, you know, and, and that's gone now. And it's kind of what, you know, how do we rebalance that? Because just having been in China, it's so obvious that just about everything that we have that human beings buy and consume is made there. And it's kind of a bit unbalanced, you know, whether, whether you reg. You know, if you kind of totally ignore any political stresses or the way that the government runs China or any of that. We have shifted all our manufacturing to China, you know, over in the, in the last 40 years. I mean it's taken a long time.
- [40:55]
Lex Forsyth
And that's, and, but it's interesting like when you go there, I was, I was there in December and it's phenomenal the amount of EV cars that you see on the road there it's more about where's the ICE vehicle. It's more EV vehicles that you see on the road than anything. But the manufacturing capacity, the skills, the technology that they've put into it now they've done it really well. And that's one thing you've got take the geopolitical stuff out of everything. They are smart, intelligent manufacturers. They are really at the cutting edge of technology and there's a lot we can learn from some of their solutions and systems that they have in place. Like I was in a battery cell manufacturing facility and you can eat off the floor like it's dust proof, it's absolutely spotless. And you're watching every second the battery is zooming down this line and you sit there and you look at it. Well, 50 megawatts went past me in the last minute. Yeah, yeah. So I think, I think we've got to look at it differently and say, okay, well who is the best in class at certain manufacturing? You know.
- [42:05]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah.
- [42:06]
Lex Forsyth
If you look at Europe, Airbus makes great airplanes as well too.
- [42:09]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah.
- [42:10]
Lex Forsyth
There's not a lot of plane manufacturing that happens in China. You know, your two major markets are those markets. Does that mean that China should just stop buying or whack massive tariffs on, on, on, on aircraft? It doesn't make sense. Yeah, we, we've got to look at, you know, adopting different technologies and yes, bring certain manufacturing back home to Europe to, to, you know, repatriate it back into your country, but do it smartly. Yes. I, I don't think going and building, you know, in, in our solution. I don't think going and building a truck plant from scratch. Yeah, yeah, but converting vehicles and, and getting them to, you know, bringing their technology level up to that of a zero emissions like what we do. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
- [43:02]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah.
- [43:03]
Lex Forsyth
With the best componentry that we can source globally.
- [43:06]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah. Because that was, I did think of you. I was walking down a very busy street or boulevard in Shanghai last week and it was, you know, tree lined and other, the flower beds were immaculate. Thousands of scooters, electric scooters going past all the time, no noise. Thousands of cars and buses. All the buses are electric, the taxis are electric. And then I heard a big growling diesel engine and I went, oh, where's that? I turned around and it was actually a big truck that's being used in the construction industry. So it was moving rubble I think. And I went, oh, they haven't done those ones yet. So everything, everything else, I mean you do occasionally you'll Hear a petrol engine of a car. So there'd be hybrids and an old petrol cars but they really stand out. I mean I was staggered by the percentage I would say and I'm sure it varies around China but in Shanghai, the center of Shanghai, we're looking at 80, 90% of the vehicles on the road are electric and the ones that aren't are, tend to be big heavy trucks. And that's, you know, and that's part.
- [44:09]
Lex Forsyth
Of their journey in their evolution of where, where they're going. But it, it is, you know, I was in Shenzhen and Shanghai and same, same thing in Shenzhen. Lots of electric cars and beautiful electric cars that they built. But the, the pollution that you used to see 10 years ago is starting to dissipate and the cleanliness of the cities, it's extraordinary. And so it's, you know, people, people say oh you, you're a Greenie, you're this, you're that. I go, no, but it's the fundamental principle of if you don't think that your ICE vehicle is bad for you, I invite you to park it in your garage. Shut the door, shut the door and tell me how you're feeling. Exactly. Just because we can put the, put the emissions into the atmosphere, into a bigger atmosphere doesn't make it okay. No, it's the health benefits for our society and in our, in our built up areas where these vehicles are operating. You know, that, that, that's something that we need to make a change to and it's, it's something that put the, put the climate argument to one side.
- [45:20]
Robert Llewellyn
Yes. Yeah.
- [45:22]
Lex Forsyth
It doesn't make sense to keep doing this. We're, we're, we're actually affecting the air that we breathe. Yeah, that's yeah, critically important which is.
- [45:29]
Robert Llewellyn
A kind of very good, you would hope, motivation for, for big investment companies to invest in a company like China. So I mean, you know, there's a lot more, there's a lot at stake, you know and you can see it in purely financial terms. And I think we, you have to because you have to make a viable business and it has to support itself and make money. But you know, there's that overriding which I think you've got that balance right, you know, that overriding ambition to kind of. Well actually we, you know, the, I say the technology is better. That's my argument. It's a better technology. You know, we've benefited hugely from combustion technology. It's been brilliant. I don't want to denigrate that for a minute. Change the whole world but, you know, we can. There is now a viable alternative to that, and Janice is a good example of that, I think. It is.
- [46:19]
Lex Forsyth
It is. And it's an economic solution that, you know, and the way we've looked at it is it's got to make economic sense for everyone in the party, everyone, you know, the investor. It's got to make sense for the fleet operator, the community. Every part of the. Every part of the chain's got to have. It's got to have an economic value. And the environment is just the beneficial byproduct of what we do. That's the way that we look at it. Because the sustainability is a number of different things and it just can't be all heavily weighted in the environments factor. You've got to take that as a consideration. But it's got to be financially sustainable.
- [46:56]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah.
- [46:56]
Lex Forsyth
And. And the Janus solution is. And it. And it's a, you know, at scale, the business becomes a very profitable business because of the way that we've looked at how we do it. And it passes on those savings to its clients and it's. And their customers at the end.
- [47:10]
Robert Llewellyn
Right. I mean, I just really hope that you can find some, you know, some good investment in time that. That really helps support you and helps you to grow. Because I just think what you're doing is remarkable. I think it's almost worth. I just want to mention that because I just think it's such a cool story of one of your customers who had the cement truck that caught fire and all that, that lovely response. You know, you ring him up and say, look, we're really sorry, we're going to investigate. So I might. I think the quote was, happens, I want five more, you know.
- [47:42]
Lex Forsyth
Yeah.
- [47:42]
Robert Llewellyn
Which was such a great. That's the best advert for an electric truck I've ever heard, you know.
- [47:47]
Lex Forsyth
Yeah.
- [47:47]
Robert Llewellyn
And very Australian as well.
- [47:49]
Lex Forsyth
It is. And, you know, it's a true testament to SMAT Australia in their commitment.
- [47:54]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah.
- [47:55]
Lex Forsyth
And they understand things like, you know, every. Every manufacturer, everyone has a point where something goes wrong. It's how you. How you investigate it, how you resolve the risk, how you reduce the risk and transparency and take everyone along for the journey. And, you know, we've had big changes to our battery packs. We've learned a lot from that, which is great. And we've put those improvements into the pack. And the safety factor of a pack is a power of 10 more than where it was. As Elon Musk might say, that was a great rocket crash. We learned a lot. It's unfortunate. And the good thing is the safety systems worked. And the interesting feedback from the driver was he said, I had nine minutes to get the truck off to the side of the road.
- [48:42]
Robert Llewellyn
So the truck was still working, still able to move. He could get it off the highway and all the rest of it and then get out himself.
- [48:48]
Lex Forsyth
Correct. Drove it off the bridge and parked it and hopped out and then realized, oh, there's an issue. And then obviously the incident ensued from there. But the key difference between that and the diesel truck, and that's what people don't know, is that there's a diesel truck fire every day in Australia. And that's what. That's what's reported. They believe that's about 30% under what is reported. But the difference with the diesel is you don't know you're on fire until the flames.
- [49:19]
Robert Llewellyn
See flames. Yeah, yeah. Right.
- [49:22]
Lex Forsyth
So. And this is the challenge, like the ice engines now, your turbos and your exhaust systems are running anywhere between 500 to 700 degrees to be able to burn the emissions and evaporate the knocks and socks. And then you put the after treatment in it. So, you know, you've got super hot, hot pipe work underneath an ice vehicle. And that's why there's so many of those fires.
- [49:45]
Robert Llewellyn
Right.
- [49:46]
Lex Forsyth
I mean, it's unfortunate that the incident happened with us, but, you know, we, we learned. We learned from it and no one was hurt and we've been able to improve the safety factor. And, you know, when your customer says to you, let's do another five, and you've got the driver saying, well, put me back into an electric truck, because I like the fact that the systems were right. Yeah. You know, there's no better proof of.
- [50:11]
Robert Llewellyn
Well, that we interviewed one of the drivers for. For Cement Australia and he was really good and he sort of expressed how. And I said, look, just for balance, can you tell is there like a negative side? You know, does it. What. Is there a downside to it? And he just stood there and I always remember there was a fly around his face because it was a really hot day. And he just went, nah, there was nothing. He couldn't. He really did try that. You know, it's just. Just one little thing. It's sort of just a. You know, because you. He was so amazingly positive about the trucks and the experience of being a truck driver with the vibration and the noise and the stress and the gears and the sound and the smell and then getting in a truck that you just basically turn it on, you put your foot down, it starts moving, you take your foot off, it stops, you're in busy traffic. Stops that with huge weight on the back, it's much easier to get going. You know, he's overtaking other track, all the advantages. So I just wanted one thing for him to say, oh, well, when you do this, you have to do that. Nothing. He couldn't think of anything. So that was, he was pretty good. He was a good spokesman for you. Yeah.
- [51:14]
Lex Forsyth
But it's interesting, the feedback like they, they brought their wives along to the Everything Electric show and their wives just said to us where they just, they don't smell of diesel when they come home. They seem fresher, they don't seem fatigued. You know, the social benefit for the driver in the way they feel, they feel fresh when they get out of the vehicle as opposed to being in a diesel truck. You know, you've got that heat and vibration and noise that plays a factor and fatigue in drivers. And I think that's the key difference. And not to mention you don't have any diesel, you don't have any fumes in the truck.
- [51:51]
Robert Llewellyn
Yes. Yeah. I mean, is it, I think we should wind up now. But is there, is there a plan, I'm not trying to force the NEO model on you, but is there a plan, a long term plan for say on the freeway between Sydney and Brisbane to have a thing at a service station, big box that you drive up to and it swaps your batteries and you carry on? Is that kind of long term planning? Is that a thing you're trying to do?
- [52:20]
Lex Forsyth
Yeah, look, we've looked at a robotic changing system. So essentially the truck will just drive underneath the battery stack and utilizing just robotic warehouse stacking cranes that are in warehouses now that put pallets away in pallet rack and it'll simply just pull both batteries out, put another one in and we'll get the change down to less than a minute. But that's part of the evolution of the journey where we go with Genesis. It's, it's taking that technology, learning what we need, what we know now at this scale, and then scaling it up once we get to scale of volumes of trucks. But that's essentially the way it will occur in the not too distant future. Right, but again, it needs investment.
- [53:01]
Robert Llewellyn
Yes, of course, yes.
- [53:02]
Lex Forsyth
It needs, it needs people to come along for the journey and we've got to build that market as well too. Which is, which is what we're in the, in the process of doing.
- [53:10]
Robert Llewellyn
Right. I mean it's so, it's so Exciting what you do. I mean, I really do love it and I will definitely. I know one person who's got some money. I'll tell him to invest.
- [53:23]
Lex Forsyth
We want the smaller investors because big investors are great. But I think this is a real opportunity for community to get behind something that they believe in and come along for the journey and be a part of that journey as this business evolves and grows.
- [53:42]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah.
- [53:42]
Lex Forsyth
And, you know, it's a, it's a minimum investment at the moment of $2,000.
- [53:47]
Duracell Energy Representative
Wow.
- [53:47]
Robert Llewellyn
So. Oh, I see. So you don't need a hundred thousand dollars. I mean, $2,000. Very, very reasonable. Yeah.
- [53:53]
Lex Forsyth
Yeah. So it's a small investment for parties that we're listing at 20 cents a share. So.
- [53:58]
Robert Llewellyn
Right.
- [53:59]
Lex Forsyth
It's a, it's a reasonable amount of shares that you get. But it's a, it's. It, you know, it can be as small as $2,000 and as large as whatever anyone feels comfortable with. So. Yeah, but it's all done through a prospectus. It's all been verified and the auditors. It's been done to a retail level. So very simple. But it's a journey and it's a great opportunity for people to be involved and follow that journey and be a part of something that's going to grow into a global business.
- [54:26]
Robert Llewellyn
Well, we'll make sure all the links to those prospectuses are in the show notes for this episode, because that's certainly a good. Yeah, a good way.
- [54:35]
Lex Forsyth
So we're, we're closing it off on the, on the 7th of May. So we're right, 70 of the. 70 of the way through in the raise now. So it's very close to closing off. So 7th of May, it closes off, so.
- [54:49]
Robert Llewellyn
Right. But I mean, that's very encouraging that you're 70 of the way there. So you, it's not like you've got 10, $10 in the bank and you need, you need a lot more. I mean, you've got, you've got some proper hefty support so far.
- [55:02]
Lex Forsyth
Correct. So far it's there, but we, we've got to get, we've got to get a spread of investors and we've got to, we've got to raise the minimum. So we're, we're not leaving anything to chance. And no, it's been, it's a definitely a tough journey at the moment.
- [55:15]
Robert Llewellyn
So. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, well, I mean, really good luck, Lex. I just think you're amazing. The company is incredible. The technology is extraordinary. I mean, I still, still have a very strong memory of when you drove me in one of your trucks and it was just so bizarre to be because I'd been in a few big trucks in my time and they're really noisy, hot vibratory things and this thing was just, it was just sailing along the road.
- [55:38]
Lex Forsyth
They glide along, don't they? It's.
- [55:40]
Robert Llewellyn
Yeah, yeah. Wonderful.
- [55:41]
Lex Forsyth
It's a nice experience.
- [55:43]
Robert Llewellyn
Well, it's been fantastic talking to you. I'm sure I'll see you. Well, I'll hopefully see you in November in Melbourne and I'll be around then. But great stuff and all right. All right, take care. All right, thanks, Rob. Bye. Really hope you enjoyed that. What an amazing man. What an amazing story. Please do have a look at the links. They're in the show notes to their share offer. You know, if you've got, if you want to invest, I think down, you know, 2,000 Australian dollars, about a thousand pounds, just over a thousand dollars US in a company that is really making a difference. You know, I would never advise anyone to invest in anything. I don't understand, understand any of it. I'm not those that sort of person. But you know, you can judge for yourself. You can see on their website what they're doing, what they have done and you know, use a bit of common sense. But I really think it's worth having a look at it. It's closing quite soon, so we're. That's why one of the reasons we put this podcast out at an unusual time. That's all. As always, after you've told your friends about the fully charged show podcast and you've subscribed yourself, if you have been, thank you for watching.
- [56:52]
Duracell Energy Representative
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