What does KEIR's CHINA 'TRIP' mean for UK automotive?' Glut Instinct? Biofools?

Summary

Everything Electric Podcast – Episode Summary

Episode Title: What does KEIR's CHINA 'TRIP' mean for UK automotive? Glut Instinct? Biofools?
Date: January 30, 2026
Host(s): Imogen Vogel, Dan Caesar
Podcast: Everything Electric Podcast (by The Fully Charged Show)

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Overview

This episode dives into three major themes shaping today’s mobility and energy sectors:

1. The viability (or not) of biofuels in a decarbonizing world
2. The automotive overcapacity crisis hitting both China and Europe
3. The geopolitical and industry-shaking implications of UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer’s high-profile trip to China

Imogen and Dan weave in industry gossip, grounded data, and thoughtful reflection on the human side of the transition, keeping conversation candid, witty, and occasionally irreverent.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Field Stories: Windrose and Koolbrook Footage ([00:53–02:25])

• Imogen reports from a Holiday Inn in Antwerp after filming with:
  • Windrose: A four-year-old company developing an electric HGV to rival the Tesla Semi
  • Coolbrook: Innovators working on a rotodynamic heater using shockwaves to decarbonize high-temperature industrial processes
• Notably, filming took place at a petrochemical plant — an unexpected context for an eco-focused show
  • “I didn’t think that we would ever be here under the Fully Charged show umbrella,” reflects Imogen ([02:17])

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2. EV UK: New Industry Coalition ([02:37–05:40])

• Dan talks about Electric Vehicles UK, an industry coalition (including stakeholders, carmakers, Andy Palmer as chair) aiming to accelerate EV uptake among policymakers and the public
• The team is described as “almost entirely female, apart from one Ben… and Andy.”
• Imogen: “Whenever one has Andy Palmer in attendance, he’s always going to say something incredibly wise and sage and make everyone feel calm but urgent.” ([03:53])
• Plug for “Trend Is Your Friend” newsletter—praised for keeping the community connected

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3. STORY ONE: The Case Against Biofuels ([06:22–11:42])

The Numbers Don’t Lie

• Dan is openly skeptical about biofuels’ future:
  • “When things like biofuels get thrown up, I just sort of roll my eyes… I really don’t think that’s going to happen.”
  • Cites Hannah Ritchie’s analysis:
    • The world uses 32 million hectares (size of Poland) for biofuels—if you put solar instead, you get enough electric energy for all world road transport ([08:29])
    • Biofuels hit only 4% of global transport needs; “the grotesque inefficiency of biofuels alone means that it really is a fool’s errand.”
    • Solar panels on that land would yield 32,000 TWh, equivalent to the world’s annual electricity consumption
• Imogen doubles down, praising Ritchie’s transparent logic and calculative approach:
  • “She made me feel very good on that occasion and has made me feel slightly better [about our show’s carbon impact].” ([10:58])
• Efficiency Highlight: Solar-to-energy via biofuels = 1%; direct solar panels = far higher (up to 27%+)
• Quote, Dan ([10:58]): “The argument [for biofuels] being kind of not so much pulled apart as dismembered and fed into the wood chipper.”

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4. STORY TWO: Overcapacity Crisis in the Automotive Sector ([12:26–20:28])

Buzzwords of the Year: Consolidation & Overcapacity

• The industry faces a massive production glut—not just in China but also in Europe:
  • VW is 500,000 vehicles short of targets (equivalent to two full plants), plans to cut 35,000 jobs in Germany ([13:58])
• Dan: “Overcapacity is going to be a big, big word this year… not just the word, but the whiplash it’s going to cause…” ([14:57])
• The crisis isn’t just about EVs or the green transition—it’s about overall shrinking car sales and macroeconomics
• Imogen highlights the human aspect:
  • “If you work in the automotive industry, that is typically a career that lasts many, many decades. Being in the automotive industry forms so much of your identity…” ([15:36])
  • This transition, while necessary, risks alienating workers
• The “banquet of consequences” (per Roger Atkins)
• Dan: When the host team criticizes slow-moving OEMs, “it’s more out of concern for the brand… we don’t want to see livelihoods lost. The most agile and adaptable… will be the ones that survive.”

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5. STORY THREE: Keir Starmer in China – UK Automotive Impact ([21:25–30:24])

Diplomatic Gamble, Industry Stakes

• Dan unpacks the significance of PM Keir Starmer’s trip to Beijing:
  • UK already greatly depends on China (second only to Germany for imports; China is 6th for exports)
  • Speculates Starmer might secure deals that lift technical blocks on car grants for distant (i.e., Chinese) automakers, possibly enticing manufacturing investments or joint ventures in the UK ([23:11])
• Industry Rumour: Jaguar Land Rover (JLR) may expand its relationship with Chinese giant Chery [pronounced ‘Cherry’]:
  • Chery’s UK brands (Amoda, JKU) are doing well; joint ventures could alleviate JLR capacity issues
  • Reflects on reversal-of-fortune: “Fast forward 10 years and look how the script has flipped. It is phenomenal…” ([27:21])
• Dan: “Modern car factories are actually going to be often dark factories… The possibility of car factories by 2030, which [are] 100% automated, is a very real possibility.” ([26:32])
• Conversation pivots to “brands without factories” and the future of brand in a software-defined, commoditized auto industry

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6. Peaks and Troughs: Winners & Losers of the Week ([30:33–37:17])

WINNER: Polestar ([30:43–33:52])

• Dan admires Polestar:
  • “I admire them so much. The way they have stuck to their guns from a sustainability perspective, thrown down a recyclable gauntlet for the rest of the industry has been fascinating and honestly, the cars are stunning and beautiful to drive.”
  • New ad campaign: “Choose fake news. Fake grills. Fake engine noise... Or choose better. Choose Polestar.” ([32:16])
• Imogen: “I have never met anybody… who doesn’t absolutely adore their Polestar.” ([32:38])

LOSER: Cold-Weather-EV Laggards & U.S. Policy ([34:07–37:17])

• Dan laments the failures to rollout cold-proof battery tech fast enough, especially in U.S. regions slammed by freak winter storms
• Praises sodium-ion battery advances, which maintain 90% capacity even at -40°C (see CATL’s latest breakthroughs)
  • “Let it not be forgotten that most EV drivers… love to tell you about how they can just have their car heated up while they're still in bed…”
• Critique on U.S. politics holding back energy grid upgrades and technology adoption: “Certain people with America are kind of shooting their citizens in the foot a little bit.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Dan, on biofuels vs. solar:

  “If you put solar panels on the land used for biofuels, that would produce enough electricity for all cars and trucks to go electric. So it is staggering...” ([08:29])

• Imogen, on JLR’s historic Chery JV:

  “Back then… in China the perception was like, oh man, this European brand is like partnering with a Chinese brand… And we fast forward 10 years and look how the script has flipped.” ([27:21])

• Dan, on overcapacity:

  “We’re at the point of consequence… I often talk about it being sort of musical chairs. Some of the chairs are getting pulled away, the music is going to stop and unfortunately there isn’t going to be enough for everyone.” ([16:37])

• Imogen, on the human cost of transition:

  “If you work in the automotive industry, that is typically a career that lasts many, many decades. Being in the automotive industry forms so much of your identity...” ([15:36])

• Dan, on future factories:

  “By 2030, car factories could well be dark… 100% automated… It’s changing irrespective of EVs.” ([26:32])

• Polestar campaign, quoted by Dan:

  “Choose fake news, fake grills, fake engine noise. Choose conquering Mars. Good luck with that… Or choose better. Choose Polestar.” ([32:16])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Windrose & Coolbrook filming: [00:53–02:25]
• EV UK recap: [02:37–05:40]
• Biofuels debunked: [06:22–11:42]
• Overcapacity, VW & job losses: [12:26–20:28]
• Keir Starmer’s China trip: [21:25–30:24]
• Polestar as winner: [30:43–33:52]
• Battery tech, sodium-ion, US grid troubles: [34:07–37:17]

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Tone & Takeaways

The conversation is straight-talking, optimistic about technology but nuanced in acknowledging economic and human challenges. Both hosts intertwine softheartedness (for workers) with frustration at greenwashing, political stalling, and technological lag.

Closing Reflections

• The automotive sector is lurching through “a banquet of consequences” as old assumptions and relationships flip
• Policy, trade, and tech are intertwined; the shape of the industry in 5–10 years will look dramatically different—more consolidated, more automated, and increasingly tied to Asia
• The move to electrification is now a question of “how and who wins/loses,” not “if.”

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For links to referenced stats and resources, see the show notes.

(End of summary.)

Transcript

[A]

Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Pulse Podcast. The podcast where we delve into the life and death decade of the automotive industry. I'm joined of course by Dan Caesar, CEO of Fully Charged show, and myself, Imogen Vogel, one of the presenters and producers here on the Everything Electric show. I've really mixed naming there and I'm going to blame having been slightly discombobulated by the wind for, for my very fluffy intro. But Dan, tell us, how are you? How are you doing?

[B]

I'm really good. You've been out filming overseas, aren't you? Not too far away, but out in the cold and the wind. I'm just at home today, which is a real nice treat. I was in Birmingham yesterday. I'm traveling next week, but actually I'm glad to be at home catching up with work admin and life admin and all those good things.

[A]

Well, I am reporting live from a Holiday Inn Express in Antwerp with where you're right, we've been filming with a company called Windrose who honestly, I can't wait for the episode to come out because it's pretty extraordinary. In the past four years, they're only four years old and they've developed this incredible Tesla semi rival hgv and it's pretty fab. And yesterday we were with a company called Coolbrook in Eindhoven who are doing, let me get this right, they are producing something called a rotodynamic heater, which is a form of turbo machinery to decarbonize high temperature industrial processes over a thousand degrees C using shockwaves. So there you go.

[B]

Wow. Okay, that's got me intrigued. I mean, it's amazing, isn't it? I don't even know sometimes what you're doing day to day.

[A]

Well, which is great.

[B]

I get these great surprises but you know, maybe I should be more on top of the detail. But that sounds amazing. I can't wait to see both those episodes.

[A]

Well, we could have actually been skiving and that could have been totally made up. But. But no. Well, little controversial segment that I'll just sort of sprinkle in here. We were filming with Koolbrook who are looking at electrification of high temperature industrial processes. But in order to capture them, they have their pilot line facility at a petrochemical plant.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

We were justified in the episode, but I was like, I didn't think that we would ever be here under the fully child show umbrella.

[B]

Okay, that is, that's quite a juxtaposition, I would say.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. But no, it's. It was really cool and definitely was a real test of my brain. But you've had a busy week. What have you been up to?

[B]

Yes, it's been a busy week. I've actually just come back from Birmingham. I've been on the 24th floor of the Shoesmith's office overlooking the city for a partner meeting for Electric Vehicles uk, where we had the great and the good from the EV industry there, including car makers and wider stakeholders across the industry. Just talking about how we're going to accelerate EV uptake in Westminster and the wider world over the coming 12 months. And that's been really, really fun for us to found that. I said then it was quite nice, Robert Llewellyn, to let me found something for a change. But actually now I have a team, a CEO and a team, very capable group who are going to lead that forward. So I'm still involved, but it's not going to be quite such a rigorous tasks for me now. But, yeah, you know, from our perspective, you know, to influence MPS, to get them in EVs, to, you know, influence the wider public, it really is necessary, I think, to have a. An organization that really champions the cars themselves. That is our biggest asset. We get obsessed with the edge case. We've led with our chin, I would say, as an industry, but the cars are now so amazing, that is what we should lead with and that's the intention going forward through education and experiences like test drives.

[A]

Now, I saw that you posted a picture from that event yesterday on LinkedIn and I was like, bloody hell. It's sort of. It's incredible. When you look at the team that now sits behind EV uk, it's an incredible team. Tanya's obviously awesome. Andy Palmer is the chair. Whenever you have Andy Palmer, whenever one has Andy Palmer in attendance, he's always going to say something incredibly wise and sage and make everyone feel calm but urgent. So it's awesome. It's. It's incredibly impressive and I was sad to miss out on the event yesterday, I have to say.

[B]

He did. The team's fantastic. The team is almost entirely female, apart from one Ben, who is very fun, very, very talented individual. And Andy. And Andy is like, you say, he's amazing. And I was reflecting, actually, that I've had the great privilege to work with Andy. He's the chair of EV uk. I've had the great privilege to work with our very own Robert Llewellyn and the great privilege to work with Quentin Wilson as well. So I've been kind of really, really lucky in that respect. They've kind of seen and done it all. They've been talking about EVs for many, many years and it must be strange for them that now is, if not in the mainstream, very close to the mainstream.

[A]

Whenever anyone new joins the EV industry, I'm always like, it's a nice group to be a part of, isn't it? And they're always like, yes. Oh my gosh, everyone's so lovely and, and even like the big cheeses are just so willing to chat and share their experiences. And that's what happens when everyone's motivated by the same mission, I suppose. So, yeah, yeah, lovely, lovely EV UK group. And if anyone is listening and isn't subscribed to Ben's newsletter, Trend is yous Friend, then check that out as well because it's. We, we often get a mention, which is great and it is just a very useful newsletter as well.

[B]

Yeah, that's a very, very good plug.

[A]

Shall we get into our stories today? Because we have three. They are all brilliant. We're talking biofuels, we're talking European automotive crisis, we're talking UK China, diplomatic trade relations.

[B]

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[A]

Should we start with story one?

[B]

Yes. Biofuels, or biofuels as they're technically termed. I think it's really interesting that we've been in powertrain wars for a long, long time. To me now, you know, the successful powertrains are going to be battery electric, plug in, hybrid, extended range electric vehicles as well. I think things like mild hybrids are going to go away over time. Petrol is going to go away over time. Some people might be shouting heresy as they listen to this and diesel is obviously already on steep decline. So there's been lots of thoughts about what would replace, you know, fossil fuel based combustion. And people have mooted hydrogen for a long time. That has absolutely gone nowhere. In fact, it's, it's gone backwards. And people occasionally still talk about things like synthetic fuels and biofuels. That kind of raises its head every so often now. You do really well to dissuade me from a world in 10 years time where almost everything isn't battery electric. But I can see some attraction of extended range electric vehicles. For example, the sort of new breed, the super hybrid, if you like. I can understand why plug in hybrids have still got some lifespan and I can understand why manufacturers are hedging their bets, you know, to be ever so slightly ahead of the trend. Not go too early and certainly not go too late. So I get it. I am actually much more pragmatic than people might realize, but when things like biofuels get thrown up, I just sort of roll my eyes and sort of say, I really don't think that's going to happen. And the fantastic Hannah Ritchie, who works for our world in data and has her own substack, I think it's called sustainability and numbers, has sort of done some number crunching recently on, on biofuels. I don't know if you've seen it, but it is quite staggering. The headline basically is if you put solar panels on the land used for biofuels, that would produce enough electricity for all cars and trucks to go electric. So it is staggering and in fact, so much so that when Hannah did the math, she couldn't quite believe it. So she summed up that the world currently uses around 32 million hectares of land, which is roughly the size of Poland. Yeah. For biofuels. And actually how much electricity could we generate if we put solar panels there? And she couldn't quite believe it. She had to double check and triple check numbers several times, convinced she'd accidentally acted a zero. And she said if we put solar panels on these 32 million hectares of biofuel land, we could generate around 32,000 terawatt hours of electricity. That's the same amount of electricity as the world consumes in a year. Or we could keep the biofuels, which amounts to 4% of global transport only. So the grotesque inefficiency of biofuels alone means that it really is a fool's errand. And ultimately, with all these technologies, once you get them on a spreadsheet, once you look at what works and what doesn't work, it is batteries and energy storage and solar and wind and things like that that win out hands down. So I just thought that was a fan. Fantastic. Ultimate put down, really. If someone starts talking about synthetic fuels, biofuels, etc, this is a one, one good document. You could, you could look to say, aha, not so fast, you know, I don't think that's actually going to happen.

[A]

And Hannah is so brilliant at coming out her newsletter. Our World and Data is just absolutely. No, it's not her news that it isn't Our World and Data is it A company.

[B]

But Sustainability Numbers is newsletter. I mean, I can't wait for it to sort of land into the inbox. There's another good newsletter you need to subscribe to if you're not.

[A]

Oh, absolutely, completely. She sort of throws out these big questions. For example, this week, you know, how much energy could be consumed and this could be generated on the same amount of land currently dedicated to biofuels. And she shows you her logic, she shows you how she's come up to those numbers. And every time I read it, I'm like, oh, she's so good. And she, she takes problems and she really is so logical and simplifies them. And actually a few years ago I asked her to suss out how many people we would need to convince or how many people would we need to buy an electric car and put solar on their rooftop at our Australia live shows in order to offset all of our flights to get there as a team. And it was like two. We need to convince two people to get solar and electric vehicle. And we know given the tens of thousands of people who come to our shows, it's much more than that. So she made me feel very good on that occasion and has made me.

[B]

Feel slightly better because that's been an unfortunate byproduct of what we've done over the years. Not something I set out to do, but in any means. And we're going to lessen that more and more. More. But that's really good to hear. I mean, she is amazing. We've had her at our London show, I think, a couple of years ago. We've had her on the podcast. It's probably high time we got her back on the podcast. She's got a lovely disarming Scottish accent and I just immediately trust everything she says, but with, with justification because like you say, you know, all the workings out of there. She really is, you know, an absolute treasure. So that was great to, to. To see biofuels. The argument being kind of not so much pulled apart as dismembered and fed into the wood chipper. Anyway, that's, that's too, that's too many metaphors in one go. So let's move on.

[A]

Well, and for anyone's thinking, like, oh, yeah, but what about the efficiency? She also does go into this, into more detail in this article about actually the efficiency of how much solar in versus how much energy out with biofuels, which is about 1% of conversion of solar energy to energy versus, like the, you know, well, 60% solar. It's more like 27% anyway. Many, many factors more efficient with solar than it is with biofuels. So we will link to that episode, to that article and it is really fabulous and so too is Hannah. Shall we go to Article 2?

[B]

Yes. I think that for us there's some key buzzwords you can expect to hear over and over and over again this year. They might not quite make it into the Collins Dictionary of the year word and all those sorts of things. I think vibe coding was one of the words of the years last, last, last year. But they're words you're going to hear in the industry constantly and consolidation is going to be one of those words. The other one to me, the big one is over capacity.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, as a market shifts, how hard must it be to predict what's going to happen? And that's why chopping and changing politically really, really doesn't do anyone any favors because you just don't know where you stand. Businesses thrive on continuity and planning and suddenly if you pull the rug out from underneath a particular powertrain, for example, the knock on effect for car makers is huge and absolutely devastating. And I think with overcapacity, you quite often hear that in connection with China that they have got this huge amount of overcapacity and therefore they're almost using other nations outside of China as a kind of release valve. You know, they've got all these people working, building these cars or probably not even people machines and they actually have a huge amount to export. I think China overall has a trillion dollar trade surplus now, which is the difference between how much it exports and imports. It's an extraordinary amount in spite of tariffs that are being applied. And so, yeah, it's synonymous with China over capacity, but it is happening elsewhere. It is also happening in Europe. They have probably someone got their forecast wrong and it's almost impossible to forecast accurately in the modern world, I think. And so there is serious overcapacity in Europe as well. Example VW are one of the biggest affected countries and I see that they've actually pursuing sort of radical capacity reduction through cost cutting programs. 35,000 job losses in Germany. The group is, the Volkswagen Group is 500,000 vehicle sales short of annual targets, which is equivalent to two full plants worth of output, making further restructuring very, very likely. They're not the only ones. Stellantis also have a similar overcapacity problem. And frankly I, I, I feel a huge amount of empathy and sympathy towards people in the boardroom right through to people on the factory floor. It must be Extremely disconcerting. But it isn't just about ev. It's about all powertrains. It's about total car sales. It's about the wider macroeconomic situations. But overcapacity is going to be a big, big word this year that we need to keep an eye on. And not just the word, but the whiplash it's going to cause, I think, in the automotive industry very, very Sadly.

[A]

Yeah. And 35,000 jobs, just as a number, is really staggering. And it's not just a huge number, and it's incredibly stressful for any of the families involved. But if you work in the automotive industry, that is typically a career that lasts many, many decades. And being in the automotive industry forms so much of your identity and your professional identity especially. And that is something that I think we have to think about within this clean energy transition more broadly, that some jobs will change and some of those changes will feel quite natural. For example, combustion to electrification, or, you know, having worked in fossil fuels and then working in renewable energy. But for some people, they will be totally out of a job, and how they then culturally perceive the influx of electrification or clean energy, as the case may be, will be negative. And so it's kind of like, you know, this isn't. We have to remember that, yes, we're talking about cars, but we're also talking about livelihoods and how they're supported and how the policies and questions support the most amount of livelihoods in the best way possible.

[B]

Well, I've been. I've definitely been guilty of that. I mean, I think when it was in the abstract, you know, we know this is going to change. We know that jobs will be at risk. We know that companies could even be threatened existentially by what's happening. And it's not just electrification, it's just dealing with change. Then we have said, you know, who's. Who's not going to make it? And we've been quite glib about it. Not so much recently, but in years gone by, you know, now the rubber's hitting the road. It's not funny, you know, it is very, very serious. People are going to be impacted. Livelihoods can be impacted, often by big decisions taken a long way out. And the reality is, it's very, very sad to see that, but it does feel that we're at the point of consequence. You know, I think Roger Atkins, our friend, the king of LinkedIn and EV expert himself, often talks about it being a banquet of consequences. I often talk about it being sort of musical chairs. Some of the Chairs are getting pulled away, the music is going to stop and unfortunately there isn't going to be enough for everyone. So it is sad, but it isn't just about electrification. And that is the thing I'm always key to point out to people.

[A]

Oh, yeah, because, you know, as we also see, the sale of combustion engine cars is on the slump and electrification is on the up. And that's something that we never see. Those two stats really presented together, which I find interesting as well.

[B]

Well, I think you, you know, we've seen in the last 24 hours some stories that, you know, actually battery electric is outselling petrol and there's just been that crossover point in Europe. I'm a little bit less triumphal about that for all the reasons that I've sort of pointed to earlier, but also because actually that excludes HEVs, so that would exclude mild hybrids, which are petrol vehicles, let's be honest. So. But I think I did see some other statistics which I'm more likely to crow about, which is that the market share of battery EVs was up in 23 European nations last year. So again, we'll try and post all these links for these statistics. But yeah, the reality is that, you know, diesel is not quite in a, in a death spiral, but is, you know, isn't going to come back from where it is. Petroleum is going to decrease. I think we've seen peak fossil fuel usage, but yeah, the impact is, is, is very, very serious. And when it comes to overcapacity and maybe the assumption in Europe was that if we kind of, you know, keep some of the newer entrants, particularly Chinese entrants out, they won't be able to respond. So maybe if we, you know, if we sort of slightly slow pedal battery EVs, that all that will hit them. But of course the Chinese make some really, really good petrol cars and petrol hybrids and they've actually been able to turn up and down their production capacity more quickly, I would say, than some other manufacturers. So. But no one's laughing. It's a very serious situation and it is going to be a theme of this year. And, you know, for anyone who's works for any of the companies mentioned, you know, you know, what can we say other than, you know, I think one of the things that we've always felt as the fully charged show as was and everything electric is when we're sort of saying, you know, X, y and Z Co. Maybe you should electrify a bit more quickly. It's more out of concern for the brand Rather than lecture, lecturing, or hectoring the brand, it's actually saying, we're worried about you and we're worried about your employees. So might not have come across as constructive criticism or constructive friend. But, you know, really from our point of view, we. We don't want to see livelihoods lost. And the most agile and adaptable and the ones that are slightly, I think, ahead of the curve will be the ones that survive. And some others will just be smaller companies. Maybe they won't go bang, maybe that's hyperbole, but they will just be much smaller companies.

[A]

Do you know, that is the joy of the job that we get to have this little tiny window into so many different organizations and to understand how they operate, the culture, what things they have coming, what they don't have coming. And so, you know, we have this incredible helicopter view. And so often OEMs are huge behemoth organizations and it's much easier to look internal to the organizations and think that challenges are unique to that organization rather than to see the macro trend. So you're so right. Like, whenever we've seemingly been judgmental, it has come from a place of like, no, we need everyone to succeed. That's how we get the best array of electric vehicles and the best array of technology and allow people to continue having their identity so firmly rooted in the automotive industry as well. Shall we move to story three?

[B]

Let's. I think this is fascinating as we speak, Keir Starmer, UK's Prime Minister, is in Beijing. He's there a few weeks after the Canadian premier, Mark Carney, made the same trip for us. This feels significant. Obviously, he will be there not just for purposes of cozying up to automotive industry or even the energy industry, but it will be a much wider diplomatic trip with huge potential trade implications. And the Secretary of State for the Department for Business, Johnny Reynolds, went out to Tokyo, I think, about 15 months ago. And at the time, I think I said, you're in the wrong country. You know, if you really want to be engaging with the country that's growing fastest, the biggest country, you need to visit Beijing, you need to visit Shanghai. Obviously, Robert and Elliot and I were in the Shanghai Motor Show a few months later, and I really just wanted to transport that feeling back into UK government to get them to realize what's really going on. Because if you're in a government, you read probably the same things that the general population do. You might think that Chinese product isn't that great, or you might think other misinformation. But let me Tell you, it is the most technologically advanced country in the world with America in AI in other areas being, you know, obviously a close second. But it is miles ahead from what I've seen. And so a successful trip to Beijing will be interesting. Obviously there's lots of contention around it. It comes as very loaded trip. There's obviously a risk that it could be, could trip Starmer up, it could be popular on home unpopular. It depends how it's framed by the media. But it is really, really important in this post Brexit world. I think that we actually are opening up and working more. And what was interesting to me was that actually as from a, an import perspective, we import more from China. It's probably no major surprise than from any other nation apart from Germany. And from an export perspective, China actually sits sixth on our list as well. So let's not be, you know, let's not have hysteria about it. We already, China is already a very, very, very significant trading partner for us and it is growing, it is getting bigger all the time. So really fascinating. And then we can't help but wonder, being in the automotive sector, what this means in relation to particular car companies. So the electric car grant, which went live last summer, for example, has on a technicality, excluded car makers that are too far away, basically, which obviously includes the Chinese car makers. So, you know, if you're looking for a grant, you won't be able to get one, for example, on a number of the different cheaper Chinese models. So it's tariff without a tariff, effectively. So we wonder maybe will Starmer come back with some sort of arrangement with a car maker, with a Chinese car maker? Might be related to the grant, might be related to inward investment into the UK to, you know, greenfield investment, maybe partnering up with someone else. And the, the word on the street is, and I read a great story about this from a friend of ours, Karna in Inagi, who works for the Financial Times. You know Karna very well as well, which effectively seems to think that it may be that Jaguar Land Rover are speaking to Cherry. Cherry are a huge automotive behemoth in China. They are doing incredible export trade around the world. You might be familiar with their brands that are doing really, really well here in the uk. Amoda and jku, they have other brands coming as well. Lee Pass or Lipa, I'm not sure how to pronounce that. Icar. There's others that are, are coming. Cherries brand itself, they are huge and they already have some joint venture relations with jlr, who used to, used to work for back in, back in the day. And there are rumors that they may do something together. They may solve some of JLR's capacity issues here in the UK. So we're really watching closely to see what gets announced on the return. But I have to say I've looked into this a little bit more and one of the things I find really, really interesting is as it relates to jobs, the SMMT do a fantastic job of talking up how big the automotive industry is in the uk, how much money it's worth, how many people it employs, and, and the reality is that obviously we may well lose jobs through the process of maybe some of the companies that are based here, manufacturing here, getting smaller. So it would be interesting to see if some of those jobs are replaced. But I have to say modern car factories are actually going to be often dark factories with no heating, no lighting. The possibility of car factories by 2030, which 100% automated effectively as a very real possibility. So I have to say it would be great to have, you know, I think some more engagement with Chinese manufacturers, maybe to have them here, maybe sales and marketing, development, research, manufacturing, all those good things to have jobs here would be great. But I think we also need to be aware that that whole market is going to change anyway. Again, irrespective of evs, the whole automotive process is going to get automated.

[A]

Well, what was so fascinating to me about the Cherry JLR sort of little rumor that's in, that's being debated is that I was at Jaguar Land Rover when they formed the joint venture with Cherry. And that was one of the conditions that for European OEMs to operate in China, they had to join, had to form a joint venture with a local partner. And in Jaguar Land Rover's instance, they formed a joint venture with Cherry. And back then, so let's say that was, I can't remember if that was 2012 or it was 2014ish anyway, early 2010s. And in China the perception was like, oh man, this European brand is like partnering with a Chinese brand. And like, we think that European brands are like higher quality. That was the perception from within China. And we fast forward 10 years and look how the script has flipped. It is phenomenal to me that that has happened. And I remember sitting in so many presentations, so many presentations back in around 2015 where it was like, we're going to see more change in the automotive industry in the next decade than we have in the previous 100 years. And lo and behold, that is exactly how it's Playing out. So I'm going to be watching the news very, very closely, but there has equally been a lot of discussion of like, yeah, let's set the bar lower. He could come back with some, you know, mou, some memorandums of understanding, which.

[B]

You know, there was always a. There was already. There was also a fascinating tidbit that I saw today which I forwarded to you, which was, I think it's the head guy at Volkswagen Group being put under pressure effectively to actually rebuild market share, VW market share in China. And I have to say, with no bad intention whatsoever, good luck with that. You know, the reality is that Chinese cars are so good now and you know, it is a case of the Chinese want to buy and support their own brands. Right there is clear that is clearly happening in China at the moment. So good luck with that. But also in the statements, effectively, VW were admitting that they will sell more of their Chinese made EVs overseas, not in Europe yet. That was the kind of the phrasing and that future that Michael Dunn paints. Again, another fantastic newsletter of brands without factories in the future. It seems to be, I would say inching closer, but maybe even faster than that. The whole chessboard has sort of been thrown up in the air, it seems, and everything is changing. So that's a good reason to listen to the Pulse podcast, I think.

[A]

Well, that whole brands without factories is so, so fascinating because, you know, especially the more we shift to a software defined vehicle architecture, what is brand in that system? If actually you've got a lot of consolidation, a lot of like similar components, similar bits and pieces that sit underneath the car, how are you defining brand and what does brand represent in a modern automotive era? That's a neighbor gazing question for another time perhaps.

[B]

Yeah, that's a, that's a big question which we definitely don't have time for, but an interesting one. I mean it really is, you know, fascinating time, as we always say, to be in this market.

[A]

Now let's come to our last segment. The oh my goodness. Peaks and troughs, winners and losers, roses and thorns. What should we call it today?

[B]

Well, my win of the week this week because I'm a simple guy, I like to keep it really simple, is Polestar. Polestar has had a lot of challenges over the years. It's hard to, it's hard for them to make their model work. But I've got to say I admire them so much. The, the way they have stuck to their guns from a sustainability perspective, thrown down a recyclable gauntlet for the rest of the industry has been fascinating and honestly, the cars are stunning and beautiful to drive. Now not everyone will be able to afford them. I'm aware of that. Although pretty sure you can get a very nice used Polestar 2.

[A]

Now, there's some good lease deals on Polestar.

[B]

There are some very good lease deals. That's true sales that they're definitely doing quite well. I know Mark Michael Lersheller, who you've interviewed, was quite bullish recently about how they're growing market share in, in the UK and elsewhere. But what caught my eye was actually they have a new advertising campaign that sort of leans into an anti maga vibe and I thought that was quite good. So I think most of the companies are walking away from super bowl advertising this year. But Polestar did that, I think, back in 2022, but they're still very much leaning into actually, you know, this anti maga thing. So the kind of the, the feel it is, you know, choose fake news, fake grills, fake engine noise. Choose conquering Mars. Good luck with that. Choose ignoring the science. Choose doubt. Choose denial. Or choose better. Choose Polestar. And I thought, you know what, that's pretty clever. So, yeah, we like them and they're doing great things and you can only hope that they, and companies like them, like Rivian and others, do succeed. So for them, I think they're doing okay and they take the wins where you can find them.

[A]

So I'm about to throw in some anecdote data, which I know is not hardcore data, but I have never met anybody ever. And bear in mind, we do speak to a lot of people at our live shows who doesn't absolutely adore their Polestar. And within the team, we've had a lot of Tesla drivers and leases have come to the end of their lives and for whatever reason, people haven't necessarily replaced their Teslas. And lots of people on our team have gone for Polestar 2s, and they're obsessed and with good reason. They are fantastic, fantastic cars.

[B]

Yeah, I'm starting to shop again and our job is the worst in the world, isn't it? Because kids in the candy store, you get to see everything. I'm pretty tempted. So, yeah, not sure anyone cares what I drive, but at some point I may. I'm very, very tempted by Polestar. But anyway, good for them. You know, it's, it's hard being the underdog and doing what they've done. And I think they do stand out. You know, I think they, they have separated themselves successfully and I hope that, you know, that they've gone through some difficult years and I hope they get more and more successful. And that Polestar 5, by the way, I saw that Brussels motor show. What a, what a car. That, that will not be my next car. That is out of my price bracket. Well, if you see me driving it, I've stolen it. Basically. That's what that means.

[A]

Well, you said to me, you're like, oh, so there's, so we have to be in Sydney later on this month. And you're like, there will be a Polestar 5 launch. Would you mind going? I was like, no, I do not mind doing that. That is absolutely fine. I'm willing to volunteer, which I'm very.

[B]

Excited about the office and my fail of the week anyway. My fail of the week is I, I guess I'm trying not to say the USA out loud. And I always caveat this. I love, love America, love most Americans. But you know, they've had a horrific, horrific and deadly series of storms in the US this week. It has been extraordinarily cold there. I'm not going to bring up the subject of climate change, although others have. But it's going to get colder in some parts of the world that is already a part of the world that gets walloped in the winter on a regular basis. And I was reading at the same time that Catl and others are pioneering their sort of sodium ion batteries and their vehicles. And actually the sort of typical NMC batteries do have reduced performance in cold weather. LFPs are LFP batteries which is now the majority chemistry in most battery evs on sale now is better at handling cold, but sodium ion batteries pretty much shrug it off. So actually Catl are working on a new battery. I think it's for the commercial sector called Tech Trans 2. They've recently announced something else called Naxra battery, the sodium ion stuff, which is for passenger cars. The sodium ion stuff is going into production and I just sort of looked at the, the statistics. They were talking about commercial vehicles that could be plugged in and charged in extreme cold conditions down to minus 30°C. Even at minus 40°C, the battery retains 90% of its usable capacity. I mean this is a, you know, this is a game changer. Let's not pretend that fuel lines don't freeze up or yeah, you know, combustion engine cars are as efficient in, in the cold and I would far rather be cocooned in my electric car with all the software, the seat heating, heat pump and hopefully sodium ion battery in the future. In in those terrible conditions and being able maybe to power my house if the, if the power goes down as well. So I got to say, you know, my fail of the week is, you know, places are really cold that can't yet access these amazing technologies. And let it not be forgotten that most EV drivers, insufferable EV drivers like me love to tell you about how they can just, you know, have their car heated up while they're still in bed and they can get up and it's nice and warm when they get in it. But, you know, it's interesting. America, I think, is, or not America. Certain people with America are kind of shooting, shooting their citizens in, in the foot a little bit. And you know, it is, you know, that's not, not making a joke about recent activities either. I mean, it really is an absolutely terrifying time. There is a better, there is a better way and better technologies and America's got great technologies, right? I mean, but to not participate now, to throw up the walls, I think is, you know, is, is going to only isolate them. We saw that at Davos recently. I spoke to Robert about that at length. I don't propose to do that again. But that was, you know, very, very sad to see.

[A]

Well, I think two things I'll just mention is that, you know, you hear that batteries have been tested to minus 30 degrees C or whatever and you're like, yeah, but we never see those temperatures. They're such outliers. But in New York, for example, it's been minus 20 degrees Fahrenheit. That is almost minus 30 degrees Celsius. So we are seeing those temperatures and you know, a lot of people who are without power in the US it's in part because the grid needs upgrades and those upgrades, the funding was cancelled in the new administration. So, you know, that's brilliant. But just maybe a positive point to end on is that that's a good idea.

[B]

Let's be positive. Yeah.

[A]

Positive note. Andrew Forrest felt or has said so. He's the CEO of fortescoop, affectionately known as Twiggy. He has a very, very aggressive net zero plan or like real zero plan for, for Fortescue Industries. He represents the mining industry and yet he was the most vocal it seems, or the most vocally standing up to tramp at tramp, sort of the tongue Trump at Davos talking about climate, keeping the climate agenda on the agenda. And it is sort of 90% confirmed. But he should also be joining us on this podcast so we can get into all of his tips, tricks, advice, controversies and all that jazz in a couple of weeks.

[B]

Fantastic. You really have got some amazing guests. I feel pretty, pretty inferior compared to some of the people, and rightly so. I mean, it has. You've done an amazing job with the podcast. I know Robert thinks the same over the last year or so and getting better and better and, and bigger and bigger guests. So. Yeah, I can't wait. I, I'm, you know, I'm a fanboy for, for the, for the channel I work on. I love to hear all this sort of stuff and mostly I, I now hear it just before it goes out or just after because there's so much great content. But no, there's, you know, it's, it's really, really interesting and it is good to see people put in the counterpoint because Trump has cowed a lot of people into silence and, you know, from, from my perspective, a lot of people just trying to ride out the next three years. That's how it feels.

[A]

And also I think something that's kind of depressing and positive in equal measure is that whilst people outwardly are not talking so much about the climate agenda or electrification, they're still cracking on, they're still investing, they're still, you know, because the economics make sense to electrify. And so that is at least something to take heart in, I suppose.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Well, tell me, what have you got on this evening? Any plans, Any plans ahead?

[B]

No, I don't think so. I think probably some work. I might watch a football match and spend some time with the children before I do some traveling. Pretty. Yeah, pretty, pretty wholesome. Yeah, wholesome. All sat around the electric fire. Oh, really? But no, just nice quiet time. And you hopefully are going to get some, some rest?

[A]

Well, yes, I'm going to have some dinner with the crew. We've been filming today, we've got another shoot tomorrow and then we're back to the uk. So need to read my notes and do my homework. Definitely.

[B]

Well prepared as always, I'm sure.

[A]

Well, thank you so much. And thank you so much to everyone who has been listening as ever. Please do like and subscribe. Please do share with a friend. We do really, really, really appreciate it. We're not just saying that. And if you have been, thank you for listening or watching.