What Happens Next?? Impact Of Tariffs, Robotaxi & BYD With Elliot Richards

Summary

The Fully Charged Podcast: Episode Summary Title: What Happens Next?? Impact Of Tariffs, Robotaxi & BYD With Elliot Richards Release Date: November 11, 2024

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1. Introduction to the Episode

Hosted by Robert Llewellyn, this episode features Elliot Richards, a seasoned expert in the Chinese automotive and sustainability sectors. Recorded uniquely in an MG Sybister during a drive, the conversation delves deep into the evolving landscape of electric vehicles (EVs), the impact of tariffs, and the significant role of Chinese companies like BYD in the global market.

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2. Electric Vehicle Market Dynamics

Chinese EV Manufacturers' Growth Elliot Richards provides an in-depth analysis of how Chinese EV manufacturers, particularly BYD, have rapidly expanded their presence both domestically and internationally. He emphasizes that companies like BYD are not only producing electric cars but are also venturing into buses, trains, and grid-level battery storage solutions.

BYD's Production and Strategy At [08:09], Richards recounts the early days of BYD, highlighting their first factory tours and the swift escalation of their production capabilities:

Elliot Richards: "We were very lucky to catch that moment in time before BYD got absolutely massive. They don't really do that anymore."

He further discusses BYD's strategy under the "Made in China 2025" initiative, which aims to dominate the EV market by focusing on electric and hybrid vehicles, circumventing traditional joint ventures required for foreign companies in China.

Impact on Western Companies Richards points out the challenges Western automakers like Ford and GM face against Chinese competitors:

Elliot Richards: "They’ve got 100,000 of their own cars over in China, why worry about the US? They can do that last, in 10 years or whatever."

He suggests that tariffs on Chinese EVs may be a short-term setback for Western companies, as Chinese manufacturers continue to innovate and expand globally.

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3. Tariffs and Trade Policies

US Tariffs on Chinese EVs The conversation transitions to the imposition of 100% tariffs on Chinese EVs in the US market. Robert Llewellyn brings up how these tariffs are viewed negatively within the business community:

Robert Llewellyn: "Greg Jackson from Octopus just shrugged them off, but [tariffs] are counterproductive and fires back against you."

Reactions from Industry Leaders Richards contrasts this with BYD's stance, where BYD's representative, Bono G, dismissed the impact of tariffs citing their expansion in Europe:

Robert Llewellyn: "The only person with the least criticism was Bono G from BYD, who shrugged them off."

He also mentions that German automakers like BMW and Mercedes-Benz oppose these tariffs, indicating potential retaliatory measures from China, such as tariffs on European goods.

Long-term Implications The duo discusses the long-term consequences of such tariffs, predicting that they could stifle innovation in the US EV sector:

Elliot Richards: "It just delays the pain for later. Ford and GM will be so uncompetitive that, God, it's even worse."

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4. Autonomous Vehicles and Robotaxis

Progress in Autonomous Transportation Richards sheds light on China's advancements in autonomous vehicles, noting that China already has autonomous buses and taxis operating on the streets without drivers:

Elliot Richards: "There’s autonomous taxis in San Francisco, but they’re already driving around commercially."

Comparison with Western Markets He contrasts this with the slower adoption rates in Western countries, attributing the disparity to China's streamlined government policies and extensive state planning.

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5. Technological Advancements in Renewables

Renewable Energy Installations A significant portion of the discussion revolves around China's monumental achievements in renewable energy:

Elliot Richards: "In the last 12 months, China installed 61 gigawatts of renewables, matching their peak national consumption."

He anticipates that China will continue to double its renewable capacity annually, underlining their commitment to reaching zero carbon emissions by 2045, ahead of their pledged 2060 target.

Grid-Level Battery Storage Richards highlights the integration of grid-level batteries in China, which complement their solar and wind installations, ensuring a stable and continuous power supply:

Robert Llewellyn: "They have solar, wind, and batteries... they’re recycling all those batteries all over again."

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6. Cultural and Operational Aspects

Chinese Work Culture The podcast touches upon the intense work culture in China, particularly the "996" system (9 AM to 9 PM, six days a week), which contributes to the rapid industrial advancements:

Elliot Richards: "Chinese workforce works exceptionally hard. They have something called 996."

Impact on Innovation While acknowledging the economic benefits, Richards also notes the potential downsides, such as employee burnout and sustainability of such work practices.

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7. Global Export and Market Penetration

Expansion into International Markets Richards discusses how Chinese EVs are making inroads into various global markets, including Africa, Russia, and Europe, offering affordable and efficient alternatives:

Elliot Richards: "They’re importing really cheap Wuling small cars... huge taxi fleets now of just Chinese electric cars."

Adapting to Local Markets He explains that Chinese manufacturers adapt their vehicles to meet the specific standards and needs of different regions, such as producing cars with Russian plugs for the Russian market.

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8. Electric Buses and Infrastructure

BYD’s Role in Public Transportation The host and guest highlight BYD's contribution to public transportation, particularly electric buses in cities like London:

Robert Llewellyn: "All those red London double-deckers you go on in London are electric and they’re made in China by BYD."

Sustainability and Efficiency They commend the efficiency and sustainability these electric buses bring to urban transportation systems.

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9. Future Predictions and Industry Outlook

Renewable Energy as a Growth Area Both Llewellyn and Richards agree that while the automotive industry is subject to fluctuations, the renewable energy sector, especially battery technology, holds more promise and stability:

Elliot Richards: "The real money is in batteries."

Potential for Further Innovations They anticipate continued innovations in battery recycling, grid storage, and the broader adoption of renewables, especially as China leads the way with strategic state planning.

Challenges and Opportunities The conversation concludes with a reflection on the challenges Western countries face in keeping up with China's pace, emphasizing the need for strategic planning and investment in sustainable technologies.

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Notable Quotes

• Elliot Richards at [08:09]: "We think they're just wrapping up the battery. Every other battery manufacturer would literally give a kidney to know how they do it at the speed they do it and at the volume they do it."

• Robert Llewellyn at [12:17]: "What’s going to happen with the US auto market with 100% tariffs on Chinese EVs and or Chinese cars."

• Elliot Richards at [33:00]: "They can execute really long-term planning. They have an industrial strategy that they can implement over decades."

• Robert Llewellyn at [41:17]: "They’re likely to reach zero carbon or carbon neutral by 2060, which they’re likely to reach in 2045 or something."

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Conclusion

This episode of The Fully Charged Podcast offers a comprehensive exploration of the current state and future prospects of the electric vehicle and renewable energy industries, with a particular focus on China's pivotal role. Elliot Richards provides valuable insights into how Chinese strategies, technological advancements, and market expansion are reshaping the global landscape. The discussion underscores the importance of strategic planning, innovation, and sustainability in driving the future of transportation and energy.

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Stay tuned for more insightful conversations on sustainability and eco-innovations in upcoming episodes of The Fully Charged Podcast.

Transcript

[A]

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Fully Charged Show Podcast. Now, normally we record these in many different ways, either face to face or in a studio or in online. That's very common way of doing it now. But this one is slightly different and I just thought it's worth explaining that this episode is. The guest is the fabulous and wonderful Elliot Richardson, who was in the UK very well for the Everything Electric show that we did at Farnborough. But then the following week I gave him a lift to the airport because he was flying back to Shanghai via Switzerland, as you do. Anyway, so we had a nice talk in the. It was a great way of catching up. While we were driving, we were in the MG Sybister, which was, you know, in some ways challenging, but we managed to get. Get there safely and it was great fun. And of course, Elliot is such a, you know, absolute treasure trove of information about, about China and what's happening in China and the car industry in China and all the big impact they're having, you know, from every aspect of that. That extraordinary country. And, you know, he's lived there for now 15 years, I think, so he knows it well. So it is really interesting conversation. That's all I have to say about it, just to explain that's how. So if you hear a bit of wind noise and a bit of noisy stuff, that's because we're in a car, but I think it's fairly audible. That's really all. The only thing I would love to say right at the top is, you know, do tell your friends about this podcast. Do subscribe if you haven't already. There's some amazing guests coming up we know about and that's basically it. Let's dive straight in. Well, we don't dive in. We'll get in to the MG Sybister and welcome Elliot Richards. This episode of the Fully Charged Podcast is brought to you by OVO's Charge Anywhere. Charge Anywhere helps you power your car wherever you are, plan your route and pay. You'll have access to over 34,000 chargers across the UK's largest charging networks and more than 400,000 chargers across Europe. Setup is easy. Just download the OVO Charge app, create your account, add payment details, hit the road and start charging. There's no need to be an OVO customer. Either simply pay as you go or benefit from up to 15% off your charging with monthly boost packages. Ovos Charge Anywhere Power your next journey with peace of mind. I'm sitting in the MG Syvester with Elliot Richards and We are driving to a really high level luxury lunch.

[B]

Completely. Yeah.

[A]

At a supermarket cafe.

[B]

That's how we roll.

[A]

That's how we roll. That's how we have meetings in the, in the corporate world of the, of the fully charged. So I'm going to close my door, which I do by pressing that button.

[B]

And I'll close mine as well. That's a bit swish, isn't it?

[A]

It is. I've got used to them, you know. I had to get, I had to get in my daughter's car, my old Nissan Leaf this morning to move it. It's weird. You have to open normal doors. I was pressing the key, nothing happened. It just unlocked.

[B]

Terrible.

[A]

Hopeless.

[B]

Do people look at you when you open this, these doors?

[A]

A little bit.

[B]

Do you like that?

[A]

I got a look of what a. The other day for sure. Yeah. Yes. No, that is the embarrassing bit.

[B]

You haven't driven with the roof down then. No.

[A]

It's so unfair. The first time in my life I've had access for more than like 10 minutes to an open top car and it has whizzled with rain ever since.

[B]

I, I think when we roll up we have to let it go down for a bit.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. Because you've got the right headgear. I've got. Which will just blow off. But the other thing that I was impressed with is. Well, there's a couple of things I like about it which I, I know other cars will have but it's kept a record of how much electricity I've gained from regen.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

5.2 kilowatt hours.

[B]

That's quite a lot.

[A]

It's quite a lot. Over 170, basically. 75 miles. So it's, it's like 14 or 15 miles of range.

[B]

That's quite good for nothing. Can we go that way?

[A]

Yeah. For nothing, I say for nothing. Free extra energy. Well, no, you did use it first.

[B]

And have you had a heavy right foot or.

[A]

No, I've been quite careful today but I've still only got 3.3 miles to the kilowatt hour.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So it's not that. If I'd driven the same as I do in the MG5,4. MG4 I would have got five and a bit miles per kilowatt hour. I know that car well enough to know even in this weather there's a lovely automatic cruise control switch. This one doesn't do anything today. I don't think I've touched anything or changed anything. It's always, always worked really well.

[B]

It's just decided to Just go.

[A]

You gotta do a long drive in a motorway. It's better. You use your right foot all the time. Well, no.

[B]

Or the rest.

[A]

Why? Why? It's worked so well. It's been so easy to choose.

[B]

I think that's the issue with some of these Chinese cars coming to this country is that they're made very well for the Chinese market.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then overseas a bit are all.

[A]

A bit after thought. I mean the lane keeping it still does it a bit and it bings and tings and bops and bits.

[B]

What are you thinking at? What have you done wrong?

[A]

Speed. That's. I went almost 30.1.

[B]

Oh dear. I did that.

[A]

Yeah. I definitely wasn't doing 45. I was doing 30.0001. Obviously. Yeah. I register on my speedometer.

[B]

So it pings at you if you.

[A]

Go over the tings at you if you go over speed limit. It bings at you for a hundred other errors.

[B]

Oh dear.

[A]

It tells you to concentrate in a very polite voice sometimes actually it speaks to you. Yes.

[B]

Oh dear.

[A]

So Elliot, just do a. About a thing of. You're in the UK at the moment. Yes. And you. And have you been with your folks? Is that where you've been? You've been seeing your.

[B]

Yeah, basically been with my parents. My parents house. Not seen them in about six months. So thought I'd better head there.

[A]

And then you went to New. Did you go to Newcastle?

[B]

Yeah, I went to Newcastle after everything electric. That was a six hour drive.

[A]

Wait a minute. When we left.

[B]

Yes. I drove for six hours to go and see my friend because I was pretty tired.

[A]

I drove for an hour and a half.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I thought oh, I'm really hardcore.

[B]

At 10 o'clock I was getting a bit tired. But yeah, it was good. Beautiful weather up there yesterday.

[A]

Are you kidding?

[B]

No.

[A]

It's been like this constantly here. It's been miserable as sin.

[B]

It was stunning. Like they've got a beautiful coastline up there. So went for a hike.

[A]

Oh brilliant.

[B]

Yeah, it's lovely.

[A]

So then when did you come back? Yesterday.

[B]

Yesterday? Yeah.

[A]

So you're only there one night?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

So my parents just think of me as a lodger.

[A]

Yeah. Who just passes through.

[B]

Yeah. Doesn't pay for anything.

[A]

Doesn't pay for it.

[B]

Just asks for cups of tea.

[A]

Cups of tea. And then complains if it's not right.

[B]

Exactly. So yeah. And then I'm off to Geneva tomorrow morning.

[A]

Right. Wow.

[B]

And then back to Shanghai next.

[A]

So you'll fly direct back and that's a Conference. That's to do with your.

[B]

My day job?

[A]

Yeah, your day job. I like the day job. I'd quite like a day job. I've never had one. I think I have sort of after.

[B]

About two weeks you might not enjoy it so much.

[A]

But do you get. Just indulge me in this. Do you get things like holiday pay?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I never had a job ever in my life where I've had holiday pay.

[B]

Never had holiday pay.

[A]

No. And I've always fantasized about it. So you go on holiday and they still give you money. For me it's like my advantage. Well, I think, I guess I've really always been self employed in one form or another. So it's just never been a thing.

[B]

No. Yes. I suppose that's one perk of having a day job.

[A]

That's a perk. But then for folks that don't know, I can't imagine there's going to be many watching this that. You make amazing programs for us in China. That's right, Chinese. Not just about the cars.

[B]

No.

[A]

Because you've done trains and bikes and other things.

[B]

Factories.

[A]

Factories, yes.

[B]

Those are the most exciting ones for me.

[A]

Well, aren't they? I think they are. Because people think, oh, you're so lucky you get to drive all these cars.

[B]

Yeah, it's good.

[A]

But the factories, all the little fellows are moving around.

[B]

Yeah. I think, you know, when we did the first BYD factory tour, they don't really do that anymore.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I think back then, I don't think even when we realized how big a deal BYD was going to become.

[A]

No, it's.

[B]

Oh, they've invited us to the factory to have a look around.

[A]

Yeah. This little Chinese company that made the batteries in your phone.

[B]

Yeah. They might send a few cars over to the UK one day. But.

[A]

Even then, because it's only a.

[B]

Few years ago you did 2021, I think it was.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And we were like, oh, it's nice. Yeah, we'll record that. I think it's got close to a million views.

[A]

Right? Yeah.

[B]

But I never knew like so many people come up to me and say, oh, we loved your BYD Factory video. Oh, really?

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And no one's really been allowed to go back in since then.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So we're very lucky to caught that moment in time before BYD got absolutely massive. Yes.

[A]

And I guess the layers of bureaucracy you'd have to go through to get permission would now be much, much more difficult. Yeah.

[B]

And the same with the Catl Factory. That was fascinating.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like all access. There's only like two things we weren't allowed to film.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's one part of the process where they wrap up the battery. Not very interesting. And one other part, but they said, yeah, off you go.

[A]

But the great thing is that we think, oh, they're just wrapping up the battery. Not very interesting. Every other battery manufacturer would literally give a kidney to know how they do it at the speed they do it and at the volume they do it.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, I do lots of videos like that over across in China and hopefully lots more to come soon. I mean, there's so much going on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But in fact, they're actually launching models in the UK and Europe before they launch them in China. So there's a big ute. It's a hybrid ute, the BYD Shark. Have you seen that?

[A]

No, I don't think I have, but I think I've seen someone. There's a guy in New Zealand and I'm going to Gavin. Yes.

[B]

Yeah. So he's driven it.

[A]

He's driven it.

[B]

Right, yeah.

[A]

So I've got it. Right, okay.

[B]

He released the video, I think past few days. That's not coming out in China. We can't get access to that.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Yeah, so that's.

[A]

So they're actually making it in China but not selling it in China.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

That's first I've heard of that. Is that first? I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, but that's likely. I think they're likely to build that in other factories around the world.

[A]

Right. But that is built as a hybrid. Is that a. It's not a range extender, it's a proper mechanical drive hybrid. I don't know, I'm not sure. Right. But it's plug in hybrid, though.

[B]

Plug in hybrid. It's 20,000 Australian dollars less than the nearest Ford Ranger, which is a petrol pickup.

[A]

But basically it's cheaper than any than any other pickup of its size and.

[B]

It'S got about 38% more range, 20% more affordable. So that's the market that Ford and GM have to worry about.

[A]

And in Australia, that's going to be Australia and New Zealand. Very popular because, I mean, they're not quite as pickup mad as usa, but a hell of a lot of them there. And I mean, I noticed that last time I was there. Massive increase in electric vehicles, very impressive, but also massive increase in massive pickups. You know, the really stupid, big butch boy ones, which is heartbreaking really, because.

[B]

They'Re just a waste of space, aren't.

[A]

They, I mean I think there is, there is definitely a move that sort of criticizes them that goes beyond the EV bubble. You know there's people just going these are dangerous, stupid things. Why have you got one of these? You know there's a sort of shame thing but I mean that might make people just dig in and go I want an even bigger one.

[B]

I want a cybertruck.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Cybertrucks look quite normal but I mean I don't know. There's a Dodge one that the front of it is definitely the size of the front of our house. It's just mind bogglingly normal.

[B]

But about comes up to about my eyes.

[A]

It's about 5ft tall, so, so over a meter high the front and it's a big flat lump of metal.

[B]

It's so dangerous, isn't it?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I do wonder what's going to happen with the US auto market with 100% tariffs on Chinese EVs and or Chinese cars.

[A]

Well, it is, yeah. I do think I. Because I wanted to mention talk about tariffs because I sort of. They were a topic over. I think we should also explain we're doing this literally a couple of days after we did.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Everything electric. Yes, south, which, the only thing that's wrong with that, with that particular title for me is where's everything electric? North. Which of course I was asked a lot by people from the north of England because we haven't done one in the north this year.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Which is a shame but we will do again, I'm sure. But a lot of discussion about tariffs and I couldn't hit the only person with the least criticism who just shrugged them off was Bono G from byd and he said well we're building factories in Europe so we don't really care. And I mean he didn't, he didn't seem to be bothered about the American. Yeah, American market. Whatever. We got plenty of other stuff to do. So he wasn't that upset. But you are critical of it. Greg Jackson from Octopus just, you know, I think that's what's weird about it is business people know it's counterproductive and fires back against you. All the bosses of all the big car companies.

[B]

I think even German government says they don't really want it at all. I think Mercedes and BMW have come out and said they don't want it.

[A]

They don't want it. Well, they sell. I mean I don't know about Mercedes but I know BMW. It's around a third of their production from Europe is sold in China, which kind of gives you the idea that maybe it's, you know, guys, have you thought they might do the same back? Yes.

[B]

I mean, the only retaliation, I'll use that word that they've had so far is they've put import tariffs on European brandy coming into China.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's the only thing they've done so far. But I mean, seriously, it just stifles innovation, especially in the us.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because they've got no pressure now.

[A]

Right.

[B]

No pressure to electrify because there's only really three or four big major companies there. They got no competition to make smaller vehicles.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's just like, well, you accept what GM and Ford and that's it really. Yeah. Tesla. Maybe that's what they bring to the market or that's it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think companies like BYD, there's another 100, what, 90 countries that they can enter, so why worry about the US? They can do that last, do that in 10 years or whatever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And by then Ford and GM will be so uncompetitive that, God, it's even worse.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're just delaying the pain for later.

[A]

I mean, I don't know about. I mean, in our Vancouver show, what was interesting was the Ford and GM stands were huge and had a lot of stuff. So GM are making a wide range of electric car, you know, from ridiculous sort of sedan monster luxury things to reasonable, sensible electric cars. And the Ford F150. They, they all. The guy that was running the stand in Vancouver said, I Wish we'd bought 20 more trucks because we could have. We, we just could not supply the test drives. Everyone wanted ever going in.

[B]

Oh, my word.

[A]

You know, them and Rivian. But Rivian did have a. Yes, the whole place was full of Rivian trucks. So everyone. I got to go in a Rivian. I didn't get. I still haven't had to go in an F150, but I did have a go in the Hummer. Just made me laugh. I mean, if you want to make someone happy and smile and laugh in a vehicle, Hummer have absolutely nailed it. If you want a vehicle that is in any way arguably sustainable, sensible.

[B]

It's not that, is it?

[A]

It's not that It's a monstrous 3 1/2 ton, 200 kilowatt hour battery.

[B]

Ridiculous. Were people on the streets laughing at you as well?

[A]

They were kind of staring like, oh, there are some sad people in the world. Why would they drive that bloody thing? You know? There wasn't. Yeah, I mean, we. It was a very short test drive. But what the great thing was there was speed bumps and I saw the car in front go, you know, like they do.

[B]

You just went.

[A]

And it's. I didn't even. That was about as much noise as it made. Couldn't feel. And then I looked in the rear view. Minute the speed humps were flat.

[B]

Oh, gosh.

[A]

It cracked them into the road. No, it was a ridiculous thing. But it has got a roof that comes off.

[B]

Has it?

[A]

Yeah, which this has. And look, it's not raining over there. And it's not. This is the first time it hasn't absolutely been slashing down with rain since I left. So this. We could get the roof off.

[B]

Could do. We need to be going a bit slower, don't we?

[A]

Yeah. We can't take it off at this speed. No. But.

[B]

No, let's not try.

[A]

I bet we'd get a lot of hits if we did. As the roof just flailed off into the back of the. Yeah. So there are other things that we talked about on stage which I thought was interesting, where all the other. Well, it's, I think, apart from the cars. It's the. It's the, you know, the way that China, in a way, is a kind of beacon of what can be achieved.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But you kind of do need, you know, to do it as quickly as they have. You kind of need a slightly different form of government than we have in Europe and the usa. I think USA will catch up very quickly. I predict a dictatorial regime and no more elections in America in a few months.

[B]

Well, that could happen, couldn't it?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I suppose the good thing about the government is there is only one government. And yeah, if they make plans, they can execute those plans because there isn't a change of.

[A]

Right. And there is. And there isn't really anyone publicly saying we shouldn't put wind turbines on that hill.

[B]

No. Or I don't want this bullet train.

[A]

Going through my village.

[B]

It's like. Well, it's for the better of the nation.

[A]

For the nation as a whole. Yeah.

[B]

And so. And what they've been able to do with that is bring half a billion people out of poverty.

[A]

And that is incredible because even in your lifetime, but certainly my lifetime, the suffering in China of the Cultural Revolution, of those early, you know, early parts of the Chinese revolution were pretty brutal in terms of lots of life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, horrendous stuff. And I'm talking like 1950s, 60s, you know, really pre. In a Cultural Revolution was.

[B]

And it was A, you know, very challenging time. But yeah, you know, so even my parents in law, you know, were part of that.

[A]

Right, yes, they lived through that.

[B]

They were living through that, you know, having not a lot of food and then all of a sudden country opened up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They started their own business but very successful, sold the business. So that's all happened, you know, in.

[A]

30 years, the last 30, 30, 35 years where it's really started to change and I mean the development in that time is mind boggling, isn't it? I mean.

[B]

Yeah. Like I think when I got there in 2008 there was no bullet trains at all. There were no high speed trains.

[A]

Wow. Oh, they've actually built those in that time.

[B]

Yeah. What I think it was about 2011. They started with the first line about 100 km and since then that's obviously now the biggest.

[A]

Just got to get in front of him. Sorry because I've got to turn off. I'm turning off here, aren't I? Yeah, yes I am.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that's incredible though because I mean that isn't, you know, you could, I can understand building a bullet train as in the train in that time, but the whole, the tracks which are probably thousands of kilometers of it, I mean.

[B]

I would imagine many thousands of kilometers like. And they're the, you know, some of the fastest trains in the world now. And so they've been able to apply that strategy to everything they do and they've actually, they've actually got an industrial strategy. Imagine that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That they can then execute over a long period of time. So I think Roger talks about this a lot, the Made in China 2025 strategy which they brought in in 2015, which basically said, well, we can't compete making ice cars.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We want to, you know, spur on our automotive industry. We can't compete with the likes of Mercedes and BMW. We've got 100 years of history.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So let's do electric vehicles. And so then since 2015 there's been subsidies and you know, you can build a factory here. Yeah. Government support, you can set up a battery factory, etc. All that time. And so whilst, you know, BMW and Mercedes have been very happy to sell petrol cars.

[A]

Yeah. Just over that one. Yeah, classic one.

[B]

Very expensive one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because, oh, it's the Chinese market, you know, they'll always accept. How brilliant. Premium products.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well they're now finding out that they're not so luxury anymore. And yes, people don't want big petrol, fast estates like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They want electric cars and so You've got people like. You've got tech companies now jumping into the fray.

[A]

We always heard about Apple going to do a car. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Going to do a car for so many years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then they didn't because it's probably too difficult. So instead you've got companies like Huawei, who bought their own car out Xiaomi. They make phones. They make phones, kettles and air conditioning units.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I've now got their own car which has been extremely successful.

[A]

Wow. So they haven't brought out a rubbish car, which is sort of what you half expect. We normally make a kettle. Here's our car. Oh, right. So it's a car which also boils water. No, but I mean, it's in rear. But then they've got to have. There's now got to be a Chinese. An indigenous Chinese skill base of designers, of engineers, of, you know, which there probably wasn't 25 years ago.

[B]

No.

[A]

And they. I mean, everyone I've met. Not everyone. A hell of a lot of people I've met who are in the automotive industry in this country have worked in China. Yes. They've all had an amazing gig working with byd, with nio, with all those companies.

[B]

And that was the plan. So to set up a company in automotive company in China, you had to set up a joint venture.

[A]

Right.

[B]

With a Chinese automaker. So, 5050 split.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So like Jaguar, Land Rover went with Chery, BMW went with Brilliance, who have now gone bust. Like they've all got joint ventures. So that way they could learn. Some people would say, still. But you could learn the technology from these more mature car companies. Tesla was the first car company which could open in China without doing a joint venture. So they.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's when they built their factory in Shanghai.

[A]

How did they wangle that, then? I suppose because they only made electric cars.

[B]

Yeah, they only made electric cars. I think it was time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's no need for them to form a joint venture. So that factory is just built 3 millionth car.

[A]

That is incredible, because how old is that factory? Five years.

[B]

Less than five years old.

[A]

Yeah. That's unbelievable. Because when you think, though, I remember seeing pictures of sort of the millionth Morris Miner.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That was a factory that was built in 11, you know, 1911, and they finally kind of cranked out the millionth Morris Miner. They've made 3 million in probably four and a half years.

[B]

Yeah, about that. Yeah.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah. So. And what they're finding now is that, you know, people don't want to buy the BMW because Well, it just doesn't have that status anymore. You want to buy a Yang Wang from BYD because.

[A]

Wow. Because it's faster and better and got silly things and will turn up.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I did a tank turn. That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever done in my life.

[B]

It's a bit silly.

[A]

The tire companies must love the tire.

[B]

Of course, they're delighted. Should we take the roof off?

[A]

Christ. Yes.

[B]

You do the honors.

[A]

I think it has to do that.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Cool. That's a bright.

[A]

Yeah, I know. It's the first time I've done it since I've had it. Oh, my God. It's off now. I can't. I can't look at the sat nav. There's too much going on.

[B]

This is why.

[A]

Warm now.

[B]

Yeah, it is now.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

This is why you buy this car.

[A]

It's got to be. There's not. Yes, there's. It's such a. That is such a big. That's the biggest thing of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'll tell you what though, if you put your window up because it really. That does make a difference. Oh, there's. I wonder if. Can you. Do I now need a bit of sunshade up there?

[B]

Oh, do you?

[A]

No, I need my cap on. But I won't do it.

[B]

I don't think we get sunburnt today.

[A]

Yeah, I don't think.

[B]

In fact, it will probably start raining in about five minutes.

[A]

Yeah. That is so funny. I still find it quite amusing that we can just take the roof off.

[B]

We can drive in an electric car with the roof.

[A]

With the roof off. Why is that so marvelous? It is, though. Well, also I think the only other time I've experienced and I cannot remember what car it was, but I did drive a convertible two seater.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Of some sort. Not a. Not the roadster. A long time ago. And you could put the roof up, but you had to stop and get out and hook it up. And when you're inside, you have to hink it in and pull two levers to make it tight. I think it was an mg. I think it was an mgb.

[B]

Could have been an mgb. Yeah, it was. Look how far they've come.

[A]

Yeah. It was worth keeping all those factories in England. Oh, dear.

[B]

Well, you say that, but I think with Brexit we've actually got an opportunity now in the tariffs in Europe.

[A]

Well, yeah. No, that is a peculiar. That's the first time I've heard someone mutter Brexit benefit and me go, I mean, okay. We sort of can see that.

[B]

So with all the European terrorists, the UK is now perfectly positioned to potentially have factories.

[A]

Have a factory. Well, that would be amazing. But also have access to more cheaper, lighter electric cars.

[B]

So you could have SAIC set up a factory in the uk. Again.

[A]

One of the most common comments that I see, other than ones telling me how wrong I am about everything on YouTube, are, I wish we could have that in my country. From America or. And now it might be from France. It could be Germany.

[B]

It could be.

[A]

Oh, you've got those. They're really good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they're half the price of my BMW. But yeah, America. There's so many Americans say, you know, I wish we could have us, you know, whatever. It would be a smaller, you know, a smaller lighter byd.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Instead of a three and a half ton diesel pickup.

[B]

Yeah. Not everyone wants pickups, even electric ones. No, I do think Rivian have doing that. Interesting. Is it the R3?

[A]

Yes. Oh, that is nice.

[B]

You've seen that in real life.

[A]

I mean, you just go, why? I mean, what broke my heart about it is why isn't there the equivalent of an R3 from Tesla at the time? Because the cybertruck was there and the R3 was there. And you just go, look, I don't want to do any value judgments, but more people would buy the R3 than will ever buy the cybertruck. And if the cybertruck do as well, that's fine, no problem with that.

[B]

But it's baffling, really, that they just chose to go down the cybertruck route rather than the Model 2 route.

[A]

And the other interesting thing I think is I know that there will be someone should leave a comment, but I have yet to meet a woman who goes, oh, I really love the cybertruck. I saw lots of women looking at it at the show last weekend going, why would you have this? You know, why would you?

[B]

Why would you.

[A]

Yeah, what is that about? What's wrong with boys that they have to have that? You know, which is kind of worry.

[B]

Well, I mean, it's probably not something for the podcast, but.

[A]

No, well, I don't. But I mean, it isn't that. It can't be that obvious. I mean, because the technology in it is amazing.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it's got the casting and.

[A]

All that stuff is really clever, which I think gives me the impression that there are. In a sense, it's like a test. General. Well, General Motors, 20 years ago. 30, 20 years ago, when they made the EV1.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The annoying Bosses said, oh, we've got to make an electric car for California. It's just. It's just rubbish. Get their guys to build something or we'll just fob them off until we can change the law. We're spending billions lobbying the government, but we've got to do it for now. And then they gave it to the engineers who made a brilliant, really good electric car that people loved. And obviously then the bosses got all the glory. And then the bosses took them all back and crushed them and introduced the civilian Hummer. Very sensible. That's the basic gist of that story. Well, this is. The boss said, draw this. I've drawn this thing with a crayon on some loo roll.

[B]

Using a ruler.

[A]

I used a ruler. Wasn't just that freehand. And please make some of these. And then. And they made an amazing car out of. I mean, it's a bloody stupid idea. It's a huge waste of space. I shouldn't criticize the cyber truck because there are. I don't want to be on one side or the other of it.

[B]

Well, I mean, maybe it's a test bed for all of this amazing technology.

[A]

Right, yeah.

[B]

So petrol leaf blower.

[A]

That is a brilliant use of the petrol engine for. Have a man going. Blowing with wind. Leaves.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That will then blow back with wind that has come from. Not petrol.

[B]

Yes. The most stupid machine.

[A]

Stupid machine ever, ever built. Leaf blower.

[B]

But, I mean, I don't want to talk too much about Elon Musk, but.

[A]

No, I don't want to talk about.

[B]

Potentially, because he doesn't let on to what he's doing most of the time. I mean, this chopstick rocket thing.

[A]

Stunning.

[B]

Just came out of nowhere, really stunning. And it's amazing. It just happened the same week that they did that Wii robot thing.

[A]

But I can't help thinking that in the, say, 18 months that has been spent developing that, maybe it won't be 18 months, it'll be years. But certainly, let's say the last 18 months. There's no way. He's had an enormous input into that because he's been cluttering.

[B]

Yes. And, you know, I think potentially, maybe early next year they'll announce a Model 2 or something smaller that.

[A]

Yeah, I'm sure, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Using, like the gigacasting. Using the same cells, using the same technology as the Cybertruck.

[A]

Yeah, yes.

[B]

And it would just surprise everyone, say, oh, here it is. Yeah, $15,000 or whatever.

[A]

Because what about the Rabovan, as he called it?

[B]

Did he call it Rebo Van, the.

[A]

Rabovan and the Rabod taxi or whatever it's called.

[B]

I don't know about that. I just think it's a bit of a distraction.

[A]

I mean, if you look at their share price, literally the moment it was announced, it plummeted.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which kind of tells you that the investment community, what do they know? But they sometimes do know quite well. Okay, this is a dumb idea. This is never going to work.

[B]

1. Where's the. I mean, there is huge commercial potential, if you.

[A]

I guess.

[B]

So the first company to commercialize proper self driving, like with taxis, buses and trucks will be.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, buses and trucks I can get. Even though, you know, it's rather unfortunate for the people who earn a living driving buses and trucks at the moment. But, I mean, I think they would be. You know, I can sort of see the sense in that.

[B]

But I think the issue is it's already happening. There's autonomous buses driving around in China with no drive, no people in it already on the streets.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

There's autonomous taxis in San Francisco.

[B]

Yes, exactly. With no people in them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they're commercially driving around. I mean.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The thing is, I think that's. That's what's scaring Bill. It's already out there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Tesla were first of the party, but now they're a little bit behind.

[A]

Really. I don't know. It's really.

[B]

But I mean, Elon Musk can see what's happening in China with Tesla. I mean, sales are.

[A]

So they have gone down.

[B]

They've gone down, I think by 5 or 6% compared to last year. Not a huge amount.

[A]

Yeah, but. And that isn't because electric car. This is the thing. People correlate. That's not because electric car sales are down. No, car sales are up. They're up, but they're just other electric cars.

[B]

There is so much competition. So. Yeah. And I think the Model 3 Highland wasn't as much of a change as people were expecting. And with product cycles in China that they change so much from model to model.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That you expect so much more. And I think that was just a bit of a letdown.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So always interesting times.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think one company to look out for from China is probably Zika.

[A]

Yes. So they've been around. I know that name.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they've been around a while. But there are particular models and particular decisions they made about coming to Europe or coming to.

[B]

Yeah. So I mean, they were. How long have they been out? So it's a new brand. They're from Geely. Well, they were EV only.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They've just announced their first phev.

[A]

Right. Which they always. Because that was. I, I managed to contain my disappointment when Bono G mentioned.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The BYD of making hybrid plug in hybrids.

[B]

Yes. I mean, I mean it's half their sales. They make 300,000 cars a month. BYD.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And 150,000 of those are hybrid of some sort.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

So yeah, so zeekr, they've only been around for. Gosh. We drove their first model on the fully charged show.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Oh okay. It's a nice car. But they've bought out, I think five or six models within four or five years.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So yeah, they bought out. I mean this year they bought out two or three models like an suv, a sedan and now a MPV all in one year.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

That is how quick it's going.

[A]

Yeah, that's crazy, isn't it?

[B]

They bought out. They've got showrooms in Amsterdam now. I don't know about their UK plans. I'm sure it's very soon. Australia is this year or early next year. Oh, that's like they are going gangbusters in every single segment.

[A]

But if you think how old the Model 3 is now, I mean it was revolutionary when it came out. They went through the agony of getting it up to speed and producing enough. Nearly went broke but managed to do it, pulled it off and they're still doing that. And you're going, guys, if you've got time to do something else, you know there should be three other Tesla models out.

[B]

Exactly. If they're going China speed. Yeah, but they're not.

[A]

I mean it must be really hard to go China speed.

[B]

And you know, Chinese workforce works exceptionally hard. They have something called 996. It's kind of this meme on the Internet.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They work from nine till nine, six days a week. Yeah. There's also 997 and yeah, I mean this. And that's typical for tech companies. They get paid a lot of money.

[A]

But they're earning deep. If you're doing that, if you're working for a big tech company doing.

[B]

Oh, you're earning.

[A]

By Chinese standards you are hundreds of thousands of dollars. Right.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So you're actually wealthy.

[B]

Yeah. But you can't spend the money on anything. You got no time.

[A]

You've really got a massive load of money because you literally know you, you either working or sleeping.

[B]

Exactly, yeah.

[A]

That nine night. Because I think sometimes I'm a stupid workaholic. I should cut Back. I must take time to myself and. And then I. I don't think I've ever done. Well, I have, to be fair to me, on the set of Red dwarf, I've done four till 11. 4am 4am but that was back in the 80s.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Till 11pm 11pm, when the last bit of makeup would come off.

[B]

Peeled off your face.

[A]

That was. I know, but I was young, you know, I didn't know any. But also, one day a week like that.

[B]

Yes. Not every single day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I don't, you know, I don't think that's sustainable either. And. No, you know, with the economy not doing so well in China at the moment.

[A]

Yeah. Because what is that? I mean, is there. I guess there's massive property problems, isn't there? There's huge property.

[B]

I mean, property prices have declined a lot over the last 12 months or so, which does suggest that things are not so rosy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think that's why you've seen this Chinese push overseas a lot because, you know, sales are still booming, but they need to find more avenues.

[A]

Right.

[B]

For. For additional revenue. And overseas markets are crying out for electric cars.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

More affordable ones. So that's what. That's why you're seeing all these.

[A]

But I mean, their actual export figures for the Chinese economy must be massive.

[B]

No, they're still.

[A]

Oh, are they?

[B]

Yeah, still.

[A]

But I mean, not in cars. I mean, in general products. Oh, yes, yeah. Absolutely. Like the Trump Bible. I mean, that's a big seller for them.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

They're all printed in China.

[B]

And the Maga hats.

[A]

And the MAGA hats.

[B]

Yeah. In fact, we've got a Biden hat in my office.

[A]

Oh, right.

[B]

Because one of the suppliers said, was.

[A]

That made in China?

[B]

He said, oh, we made these hats as well. Oh, great.

[A]

It's just. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, there's like. At the moment, it's the Canton Fair, which is a big fair in Guangzhou, where people come over from all over the world to find products to sport bikes and everything. Everything you can think of.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Our clothes.

[A]

So that isn't like a car. That's like everything that's on everything. Saucepans.

[B]

Yeah, Anything you can think of.

[A]

Shoes. Yeah.

[B]

But, you know, there's no sanctions on China exporting to Russia. So there's a huge.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Push of Chinese cars in. In Russia. Cherries. Very big in Russia.

[A]

Right. But not electric ones, presumably.

[B]

They're electric as well.

[A]

Oh, really? They are selling electric cars into Russia?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

So I drove a cherry car for export. It had a Russian plug on it. I don't know if they have a slightly different standard. So they said don't drive it too fast because if it runs out, we can't charge it. Okay. So, yeah, and all the stands, like Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, they're all importing Chinese cars from China, even with the Chinese system into their countries.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because they just want premium electric cars.

[A]

Yeah. But also, I mean, that bodes very badly for Japan, who, you know, very badly. I know from personal experience. And also every bit of footage from anywhere around the world, there's loads of Japanese.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Toyota pickup trucks, if nothing else.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

The backbone of international terrorism.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But, you know, but they've done incredibly well all around the world and now clearly people aren't buying Toyotas. No.

[B]

I think what's interesting is Africa as well, because there's a few people on Twitter and on threads, a guy called Joey from. Is it EV Africa or. I can't remember what.

[A]

He's all right so far. I'm now following a few people from.

[B]

Jumping over ICE vehicles and going straight, straight to EVs from China. So they're importing the really cheap Wu Lings. There's, you know, 3,000 pound small cars because they just offer so much and you see huge taxi fleets now of just Chinese electric cars.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

For me, that's really exciting.

[A]

No, I mean, it's an amazing confluence of things. You know, you didn't, you didn't, you didn't move to China. I'm going to move to China to study the currently non existent electric car industry.

[B]

Not at all.

[A]

But it's happened since you've been there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you know, I mean, and I mean what's wonderful now is that the access you've got because of the shows we've done together and your own shows.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, the Chinese companies are going. Actually, it's quite useful having him have a look at these things. Yeah.

[B]

And that's what's so wonderful. We get to show what is actually happening, you know, away from the headlines, away from the sensationalist Daily Mail articles and things. I'm sure. Well, China's, you know, away from politics is fairly normal country with normal people.

[A]

Yes. Just doing, just doing normal, normal things. Yeah. But also I would love to talk about, because that was a thing that Greg Jackson talked about and you mentioned was the kind of explosion of renewables. I mean, just, I just. The only fact I know is in the last 12 months, China installed the same amount of renewable generation capacity as this country uses at the absolute peak of Its consumption. So it's about 62 gigawatts on a winter's day when everybody turns their heating and everything on. That's the most we ever, ever use. You can see it at the national grid thing. It goes up to about 60. I think we've got a 65 gigawatt peak production. And they put in 61 gigawatts of renewables in one year.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is absolutely barking unbelievably huge.

[B]

And then what they're probably likely to do is double that by next year. Double it again the year after. So China had two goals. So again back to that state planning.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They can do really long term planning. They had one goal, I think it was to have peak carbon output by 2030.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think they've, they've reached that already and it's already declining.

[A]

Right. Isn't that amazing? Things they've set themselves have actually.

[B]

Yeah. Targets always beat their targets because they, you know this, the, the regional governments want to go to the central government, say we've done it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Give us some brownie points or give us extra money. Right. And then they're gonna be zero carbon or carbon neutral by 2060, which they're likely to reach in 2045 or something.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And that's because of the growth of renewables. Solar.

[A]

Solar, wind and batteries is that combination.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Which is what I mean, that was interesting. I didn't even ask Bono, BYD Bono about grid batteries. He just started mentioning them and the two things, you know, one, I brought up the buses because people don't realize that all those red London double deckers you go on in London are electric and they're made in China by byd.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

You know, that's been a well known thing, but the le, the investment and the production of different battery chemistry but massive grid level batteries, which I've always been skeptical that that will really work. It sounds like it's too. Yeah, I know if you have solar and you have batteries, you have. But actually what's. Particularly in Australia, this is happening. That's where I'm following it the most. The electricity Companies are supplying 24 hour power from wind and solar and batteries. I mean they're doing it now and they're so quick. The problem is they're making so much money. It's such a cheap way of producing the. You know what, the initial upfront costs are enormous. The initial upfront cost of building a nuclear power plant or a gas burner are huge. But then you've got to pay for the fuel. They've got this huge upfront cost and free fuel forever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then finally capitalism's gone. Oh, you mean the fuel's free.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then tell me that bit.

[B]

And there's no cleanup costs.

[A]

And there's no cleanup costs.

[B]

In fact, you can recycle all those batteries all over again. So.

[A]

And the wind turbines and the blades.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Very important that we make sure that. I mean, you know, it's important that the public know about that and pressurize the companies to make sure they do it. But they are doing it. They're recycling blades now and they're making them out of different materials.

[B]

Yeah. And so that I think the growth in that area is probably where the focus will be because.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I mean automotive is quite fickle. Right. It's.

[A]

Yeah. Trends and fashion based.

[B]

And trends subsidies and tariffs and whatever else. The real money is in batteries.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So hopefully next year we'll get you out to China as well. Yes.

[A]

Well, that's. I'm praying that. Because I've never been. I would love to go. I did mention it to my wonderful wife who went to China.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

In her youth. 1984, wasn't it? So I mean, you imagine how different it is from what she saw there.

[B]

Just a different. I don't know, no reference points at all, I don't think.

[A]

No. But I think it's just such a great story. There was one long journey she did in a minivan with a load of Australian gymnasts and circus performers. It's very hard to see. The culture clash must have been fairly big. But they had all their windows with newspaper papers.

[B]

That's right. So you couldn't see out.

[A]

So weird.

[B]

That is strange, isn't it?

[A]

It was like a long drive. It was like seven or eight hour drive.

[B]

I mean it's only. I say only 40 years ago. It's not.

[A]

Not that long ago really. No. There are. I've found some photographs that very. Of course, you know, no one had a camera then or a few people. There are one or two pictures of her that we found in Australia, that of her just standing in a street looking weird because she's got goth hair and like massive red lipstick and weird makeup.

[B]

So she really set out surrounded by.

[A]

One and a quarter million Chinese children just all staring up at this absolute freak of nature. What I want to go. What I wanted to tell the Chinese cultural attaches. Yeah, she looks weird in Europe as well. And Australia. Yeah. She was quite, quite a sight in her youth.

[B]

Probably wouldn't stand out that like that anymore blended?

[A]

No, no, not so much now, no. And she didn't have any piercings or tattoos so what the hell. She was just a middle of the road, middle class woman. I really hope you enjoyed that. It was great fun to do and it was so lovely that we actually, because I'd had that car for about a week and we actually got some actual sunshine for the first time ever when we were driving it. So we actually took the roof off and it was the only time I took the roof off the whole time I had the car. I had it for a week and it was gray and raining for every other single minute that I had it. Which is kind of frustrating. It's what two seater open top sports cars are all about. That's all. Please do join us again next week for another fabulous episode of the Fully Charged show podcast. But for now, as always, if you have been, thank you for listening.