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Everything Electric Podcast
Why Clean Energy Will Always Win (Eventually...) with Cleantechnica
01:05:51
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- [00:01]
Narrator
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- [00:56]
Scott Cooney
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- [01:37]
Robert
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Everything Electric Podcast. Coming to you in a rather unique combination. I'm quite excited about this. I'm currently in Sydney, Australia and my guest today is in Honolulu, Hawaii. That's the first time we've ever done that particular combination. People who are very, very involved in the new tech scene and clean energy and electric vehicles and renewables and batteries and all those sort of things possibly will be aware of a wonderful publication called Clean Technica which has been going slightly longer than the Fully Charged show and the Everything Electric show, but sort of very much coming out of the same ideas. And so this is the first time I've actually met Scott Cooney who is one of the founders, the co founders of Clean Technica and he lives in Honolulu and it's been a real pleasure getting to know him. Having a really lovely chat today. I think you'll really enjoy it. Very interesting. We do cover a huge wide range of topics in the clean energy and tech space and I certainly learned a lot and I hope you do too. So without more waffle or more ado, please welcome to the Everything Electric Podcast. Scott Cooney from Clean Technica.
- [02:58]
Narrator
Our three free YouTube channels on EVs and clean energy Tech are funded by our fun packed test drivetastic events in the north west and Greater London and our Events down under. Next up, Everything Electric Sydney 2026. Plus check out EverythingElectric. Store for merch and much more.
- [03:18]
Robert
So, Scott, thank you so much for agreeing to talk to us because this is. It's kind of. I think we're in a special moment that I think you have a unique view of. Could you. I think you'll do it better than me. Would you mind explaining your. Your role or explaining your involvement in Clean Technica and all that renewable.
- [03:38]
Scott Cooney
Who is this guy?
- [03:39]
Robert
Yeah, where is this guy? Well, where are you? That's quite exciting. It's quite unique.
- [03:46]
Scott Cooney
I'm in the multiverse. I just. I exist in all. In all planes and all dimensions. No, I hail from Honolulu, Hawaii. I call this place home. It's a beautiful place to be and I've been out here about 16 years. And it was. I started clean Technica with Zach. 16. Been Chi. We kind of lose track of time. Whatever. Long time ago. And I had no grays. Zero. I was. I had hair back in the day. So what startup life does to you. But no, I started this out of a windowless office in San Francisco back in 2009 and moved to Hawaii once I had things up and running and kind of working independent. Move it out to Hawaii and live out here. It's beautiful. And EV adoption is high. Solar adoption is high. Electricity prices are very high. So everything clean tech makes a lot of sense out here. And that was the case 16 years ago and now it's just even better.
- [04:43]
Robert
So that's it. Because, I mean, that is. I've heard that. I mean, I would love you to explain a bit more of that, but I mean, because of its isolated position globally, for you to have gasoline and diesel in a pump means there's no way you're getting it from down the road. You're getting it on a huge ship that's coming thousands of miles across the sea.
- [05:02]
Scott Cooney
Yes.
- [05:03]
Robert
So I assume that fuel. Is fuel more expensive in, In, In Hawaii than it is on mainland America.
- [05:09]
Scott Cooney
It's quite a bit more expensive. People come out here, they get a little sticker shock when they. When they see that. For sure.
- [05:16]
Robert
Yeah.
- [05:17]
Scott Cooney
And you know, it's one of these things that anything brought in 3,000 miles is going to cost. It's going to have a fee. You know, it's going to be a more expensive sp. Eggs. Diesel fuel. Yeah, all the things.
- [05:30]
Robert
Yeah.
- [05:30]
Scott Cooney
So yeah, it's expensive. And so obviously EVs which get three to four times more miles per unit of energy.
- [05:37]
Robert
Yeah.
- [05:37]
Scott Cooney
It just makes a lot of sense you know, your fuel costs are just going to be lower. Solar, rooftop solar, just makes a ton of sense out here. Pays for itself very quickly. Heat pump, water heaters. I mean, just like you talk about a year and a half, two year payback period, it just makes a ton of sense.
- [05:51]
Robert
Yeah, yeah, but then you're so that, I mean the thing that I wanted to discuss with you is because that my, the reason I'm doing what I do now is entirely because I was fortunate enough to work in California from 2001 to 2006, that period, making a TV show called Junkyard Wars. And so I was there every year. I wasn't the first couple of years. I was there for a long time, did all the shows, you know, I was there for a long period, but then I went back for like a month each year and what I experienced there was this incredible explosion of technical development in the world of solar, wind, batteries, electric vehicles, you know that. And it came. The movement of electric vehicles started in California. It didn't start in Norway or China or Korea anywhere. It started in Silicon Valley. It started with computer technicians there. And what is so extraordinary at the moment, and I think it's, I'm going to say it's a passing phase, but that the amazing development that's happened say in the last five years has not happened in the United States, it's happened in China.
- [07:03]
Scott Cooney
Yeah.
- [07:04]
Robert
And that shift, I went to China for the first time this year, so I'm still a bit obsessed. It's the first time I've been. And it was so extraordinary that you couldn't just brush over it.
- [07:13]
Scott Cooney
It's, it's mind boggling what they're doing over there. I mean some of the, the wind turbine technology kind of blows me away that they have these floating offshore, two headed dragons of wind turbines, you know, and it just blows me away. Amped up in an order of magnitude the megawatts that come out of one wind turbine. And it just, yeah, it blows me out. They're just solving so many technological problems so quickly. It makes your head spin. It's, it's, it's insane. I remember there was an IEA report about the cost of solar and this was back in, it was like 2010. And at the time they, they predicted the cost of, of a kilowatt of solar would drop. I forget the exact numbers, but it was like we're going to drop from 35 cents down to 20 cents between 2010 and 2020 know. And by, by 2020 it had dropped to 5 cents a kilowatt hour, you know, five years faster and four times cheaper, you know, and it was. So much of this was Chinese manufacturing and just this juggernaut of, of capability that they have. They've built up the factories and, and all that kind of stuff and they've just gotten a huge lead on the rest of the world in terms of clean tech manufacturing. Yeah, you know, they're, they're betting on it and, and you know, people are now calling them the first electro. Electro state superpower versus a petro state superpower. And you know, it's. Their clean energy exports this year represent more than 10% of their entire GDP. Wow, that blows me. I mean, it blows me away.
- [08:41]
Robert
Yeah, they make a lot of other stuff that isn't clean, I mean.
- [08:45]
Scott Cooney
Oh, indeed.
- [08:47]
Robert
Well, probably most of the technology we're using to talk to each other at the moment, you know.
- [08:52]
Scott Cooney
Yes, I'm sure.
- [08:52]
Robert
Yeah, some bits of it, definitely. Yeah. I mean, but that. What is such. I just find it a bit heartbreaking. But then I kind of, you know, and I don't do not want to talk about contemporary American politics at all. But, you know, that sort of reactionary shift away from incredible skill and innovation and, you know, just the very thought that someone who'd worked on computers and realized they had batteries in their laptop. The very first electric vehicle I went in had Sanyo laptop batteries racked up in a box behind the seats. It was a real rubbish car. It was not impressive. And it had a range, I think of six or seven miles, you know, but it could do those six or seven miles really fast. It was designed to kind of. It was the development of the, the drivetrain. I can't remember now. I can't remember any of the companies involved. The drivetrain that eventually ended up in the Tesla Roadster. AC propulsion. The brain can still work sometimes.
- [09:52]
Scott Cooney
It works. There you go.
- [09:55]
Robert
But yeah, that was. So that was in 2001 and it meant, and it made no sense to me. I thought this is the most stupid thing. Why are they doing this? You know, didn't. It didn't automatically click. But that all happened in America. And I mean, that is what is. You know, I just feel that, you know, for the engineers I met in California who were just incredible people.
- [10:13]
Scott Cooney
Yeah.
- [10:13]
Robert
You know, it's. I think I feel a bit sorry for them at the moment.
- [10:17]
Scott Cooney
You know, there's, it's. Yeah, I mean, there's definitely something to be said for that. However, California, I mean, like the United States is a gigantic place. You know, I won't I won't get lost in any, like, what's going on in our country. Just. Let's just skirt past that. However, there's amazing stories happening all over the country on the local and state level. I mean, it's really incredible. So California. In 2022, California hit 100 clean energy powering its entire state for the first time.
- [10:46]
Robert
Huge. I mean, yeah, it's really here. Like Denmark's done it. Denmark is like one. Is like San Diego, isn't it? It's one city in California. I mean, in terms of population and size and energy use, it's like one city in cut. So the whole.
- [10:58]
Scott Cooney
More or less.
- [10:59]
Robert
I didn't know that the whole state.
- [11:01]
Scott Cooney
I mean, if you, if you took California as a country until recently, it was the fourth biggest economy in the world.
- [11:09]
Robert
Yeah.
- [11:09]
Scott Cooney
And then Japan has grown and actually jumped above it just in the last month or so. But it grew. California grew. And again, don't quote me on the exact numbers, but it was the 12th biggest economy in the world back in 2010. It grew to the 4th biggest economy in the world this year because it is completely committed to powering itself and to driving itself. And California doesn't have a ton of resources of coal, oil, natural gas. And so it's, it's of course investing in solar and wind and geothermal and it. And it's using those resources that it has, energy efficiency, keeping more money in its state, recirculating. And it's been a winning strategy. So. So California hit 100% clean energy for a very brief period of time in like March of 2022. And I remember I listened to our National Public Radio, had a, had a talk at a piece on it and it was like, wow, this, the whole state, this huge place that would be the, whatever, biggest, biggest country in the world just hit 100% clean energy.
- [12:11]
Robert
Wow.
- [12:12]
Scott Cooney
Amazing. And then you flash forward and this year they're averaging seven hours a day of 100% clean energy running the entire state, which is now the fifth biggest country in the world. So it's like mind blowing how fast this stuff has happened. And it just, you know, it portends a good future for a lot of like, clean energy stuff. I mean, you can make it work in California. Like, why can't you make it work in a lot of other places? So.
- [12:36]
Robert
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's also that, you know, once the economics of that, I mean, I really feel that, that the electric car has done that little switch for the people that understand it. So when you, when my neighbors See how much money I spend making my car go along the road. And then I say, how much money? And they don't. What is amazing because we're so used to buying gasoline, petrol, as we would call it.
- [13:01]
Scott Cooney
Yeah. Thanks for translating for the American audience.
- [13:06]
Robert
Well, I've spent so long in America, I sometimes say gasoline, like, without thinking. I mean, petrol. It's the other way around. Anyway, the. But the, the shocking thing, I think, and I was the same, that I don't. I wouldn't have known if you'd have asked me 15 years ago, how much do you spend on petrol every year? I go, I don't know, A lot or some. I don't know. You know, I wouldn't know. And then if I looked it up and I go, oh, my God, thousands of pounds. So when people work, when I ask them, how much do you spend on. So what I'm saying is the economic argument that California is going to be able to make that this is how much money leaves our state to pay for fuel. And of course, there still will be some, but it's going to be minute in comparison with what it was 20 years ago. You know, a fraction of that.
- [13:52]
Scott Cooney
Absolutely.
- [13:53]
Robert
And that money is staying in and it employs all these people and it's built all these things and we don't have to rely on that. And we're not getting, you know, all the, all the other arguments will follow on.
- [14:02]
Scott Cooney
I'm starting, you know, like, I. Obviously the work that we do keeps us a little bit on the cutting edge of, you know, some of these trends and stuff like that. And so some of the things I've seen, it's like California is doing this and, you know, looking at other places that are kind of doing this too. And, you know, There was another IEA report that showed more than 100 countries are actively reducing their fossil fuel imports.
- [14:23]
Robert
Yeah.
- [14:24]
Scott Cooney
And have done so for a decade. There's more than 100 countries and it's kind of amazing. But when you think about it, it's just economics. It just makes total sense that if you don't have those resources, why would you send your money out of your country? Like, you want to keep your money. I think most people understand that argument, you know, so it's like, keep your money. It's, it's. This is not hard. So, you know, like, Denmark, the uk. I was reading this report. Uk, Denmark, what was it? Germany? UK and Chile had reduced their fossil imports by more than a third in the last decade. So congrats to your country.
- [14:59]
Robert
Wow.
- [15:00]
Scott Cooney
Denmark had cut it by more than half, which was cool.
- [15:02]
Robert
Yeah.
- [15:03]
Scott Cooney
And then it was like, oh, my God, how did they do this? And it was like, duh. They built solar and they did energy efficiency. Like.
- [15:09]
Robert
Yeah, yeah.
- [15:10]
Scott Cooney
It's not rocket science, you know, so. Yeah, yeah.
- [15:13]
Robert
Well, that's impressive for the uk. I mean, I didn't realize. I suppose the thing is that, that is, you know, some people might think that's electric vehicles. It's really not. It's offshore wind is what's made that y. You know, in the uk. So we're burning so much less gas. We don't burn any coal. That stopped altogether. And we are. We are the king of coal. You know, we started bloody coal. That's right. That's where it started being dug up and burned. So we've stopped doing that. But then when you see the. The. I've been obsessively watching the. At the kind of maximum averages from offshore wind and it's gone from, you know, like 20 years ago, 10%. Oh, my God. 10% of all electricity is coming from now. It's regularly 70. 70 to 75. Happens all the time. Of all the electricity in the UK, we haven't passed 100 yet, and we won't for probably another three or four years, but we will soon pass 100, you know, on occasions. And there's still days when it's diabolically low. There's no point, you know, I occasionally post on Blue sky. This is how much energy we're getting from offshore wind. It's hopeless. Let's. Let's dig up coal, you know, because it's.
- [16:19]
Scott Cooney
So let's bring that back.
- [16:21]
Robert
Yeah, but I mean, that is actually the majority of the time now. It is above 40%, you know, like just over the whole year. And I think over the whole year, we're around 45, 50 of our. All our electricity from offshore wind. So that's.
- [16:33]
Scott Cooney
That's great. It's quite an improvement.
- [16:34]
Robert
That's why we don't.
- [16:35]
Scott Cooney
In our lifetime. That's. It's been incredible.
- [16:37]
Robert
So, yeah, it has been a big. A big shift. But then, I mean, I've just been going through some of your more recent stories because they're so amazing and what. You know, I mean, it is an obsessive. I'm there all the time. I'm. I'm a Clean Technica fanboy, so there's no point pretending otherwise.
- [16:56]
Scott Cooney
You know, we're gonna get you a T shirt or a mug or something.
- [17:01]
Robert
T shirt and a mug. But. So that's really good the things you said about no matter. Because I was, I always get depressed if I re. If I am exposed to the wrong news feed which I'm now like slamming the doors and all that. I just don't see it because it doesn't do it. It doesn't make any difference. But, but then if you look for the positive stories, there are some, as you were saying. But the solid state battery development in the USA is really fascinating. I had no idea, I hadn't looked it up. I hadn't researched it until yesterday and I suddenly went, I didn't know that. So factorial is it factorial energy and the solid power in Colorado. I didn't know that was happening there at all. So that's. And getting investment.
- [17:40]
Scott Cooney
Yeah, for sure. And it, you know it's, it's the ultimate no brainer of no brainers. You make a better battery there, you know, it's like a better mousetrap. They'll beat the, beat the path to your door. You and the investors are interested in this kind of stuff and obviously it's, there's a payback. So it just, it just makes, it's just business. That's, you know, that's all it is. But yeah, the solid state stuff has made great advancements. You know, Toyota's been messing around with it for a long time. A lot of the other car companies have been toying around the edges of it and obviously it will help move the battery conversation forward and answer a lot of the, you know, still existing challenges that we have with batteries with regard to critical minerals and stuff like that. So it's just improvements will just continue to happen. And what blows me away Robert, is that people are still surprised by this. You know, it's like that, you know, people, oh my God. Who would ever have guessed somebody make a better battery, you know.
- [18:27]
Robert
I know.
- [18:28]
Scott Cooney
Yeah. Yeah, they will.
- [18:30]
Robert
Yes.
- [18:30]
Scott Cooney
That first TV you drove, it'd be like, oh my God, who would ever thought they would have improved on this?
- [18:35]
Robert
Yes. Now if I look back now, I mean the first one I had was a Mitsubishi Imiev which was a little city car. Yeah, yeah, that was great. I love drive it. But it had a really genuine range of about 55, 60 miles. If you're, you know, it was incredibly limited and there was no way to charge it then. Yeah. But I mean if you put, you could now put a battery, a new battery in the same space that battery took up in that imeve and give it a range of 200 miles easily, you know, it Wouldn't be. That's not a big stretch. About the same weight and exactly the same size and you'd have 200 mile range Mitsubishi. I mean, that's awesome. That's the change we've seen in those 15 years, which is incredible. Yeah, it's super cool. Yeah. I just driven the, I just driven the new Nissan Leaf and it does 300 miles further than my first Nissan Leaf.
- [19:26]
Scott Cooney
Yeah, that's awesome. I was just, I was just literally just thinking about the Nissan Leaf and I was also thinking about the. You remember the compact fluorescent light bulb? Yes. Do you remember that?
- [19:36]
Robert
Yes, of course I do. I'm old. I remember. Oil lamps way less than I used to have.
- [19:44]
Scott Cooney
I remember, I remember killing the beaver and getting the blubber and making my own candles. Kid. Yeah, no, for real, like the, the Compact Fluorescent, like it's, it's one of my favorite stories to tell with regard to the clean tech revolution. You know, people have now kind of think, thankfully purge that from their mind. Most people, you use it, you remember the cfl and people are like, cfl, cfl. It's in there somewhere. But they hardly remember it now. It's like LEDs are just the thing. And here in the US we had this big fight about, you know, whether or not we should, you know, transition to these like energy efficient light bulbs. And I remember being like, I am actually not sure because these CFLs kind of suck. And then, and then the LEDs came along and it was like, it's same bulb, uses 8% the electricity.
- [20:26]
Robert
Like, duh.
- [20:27]
Scott Cooney
Like, okay, it's dimmable. Great. Okay, solved all the problems. Moving on, next problem. You know, chalk it up. So it's, I like to point out those types of things for people who feel like, oh my God, we're not making any progress. Nuts. Like, and you know, with regards to like what you were talking about with the news, I think it's important people still like read the news and understand the news until they know what the problem is, until they have figured out a solution that they're interested in, you know, so. Because I think documentaries and news will like light people up. And somebody who put those computer batteries together probably read a piece of news and was like, huh, we got to transition away from gas cars at some point. I think I can. Yeah, let me play with this. And then they invented that and they started the progress that, you know, has led us to where we are today. So yeah, I think it's, it's so important until you like, know what you're focused on and then you focus on it and it's like, all right, let's just go, let's just solve these problems. So.
- [21:18]
Robert
No, absolutely right. The.
- [21:20]
Scott Cooney
There's.
- [21:22]
Robert
Yeah. No, I mean, no, I mean even that. Well, the, the experience I had recently and I've just seen this morning that, that Waymo are launching in London, which I didn't know about apparently.
- [21:31]
Scott Cooney
I didn't know about it either.
- [21:32]
Robert
But it was just. I mean it was just that the. You know, I've driven lots of Teslas and, and I've tried what I call autopilot and it was quite. It's. It's not very good, I think it's fair to say. I mean they're the, their adaptive cruise control, you know, faultless. Absolutely been amazing. You I'm steering and I'm not. Not. I don't want to but. But I've just been in a full self driving. A full self driving. It's got a special brackets afterwards. It's like monitored or looked after because you've got to be there. You can, you know, you can't go to sleep. Anyway, in, in Melbourne I had a. I had a ride in one for about 25 minutes and it was absolutely faultless on the awkward little roads we drove on, on the bit of highway and on the main roads and side streets and roundabouts and all that perfectly fine. Had doing anything which was, you know, and I'm impressed because I've never been in one before that did that, you know, that was that competent and it was very fine. But then all I see on my newsfeed is horrendous disasters with full self driving. You know, people who love Tesla and all that stuff. Yeah, but then, and then, but then Waymo, from what I can gather and I haven't. I don't know if you've been in one, but I haven't been in one. I haven't been in services go. And everyone I know who's been in them just goes. It's freakish. It's just 100% perfect. It doesn't do anything wrong. It's perfect.
- [22:53]
Scott Cooney
You know it, it drives like a grandpa. You know, I kind of wish it, you know, it's an electric car. So I'm like, come on, floor it, dude. Let's go, let's go. I want to see the pickup on this Waymo. And then you know, that driver doesn't listen to me at all. I'm just like dude, yeah dude, go faster. But you know, it's, it takes the corners very gently. You know, it does the turns and whatever. And it accelerates from the stoplight very slowly and all that. That's my only complaint about it. Just go faster.
- [23:17]
Robert
Right? But. Yeah, but I mean, in your experience, it was very competent.
- [23:21]
Scott Cooney
Totally flawless. Totally flawless. You walk up to it with the app, the door unlocks for you, you get in, whatever. You make out with your girlfriend, you go, yeah, totally. You drive to the next spot, it stops, you know, and the door opens for you, and it's like this. This is amazing. Okay. Very cool. Yeah, it's. It's. It's all coming.
- [23:41]
Robert
Yeah. I mean, it's. It's. I think it's the one aspect of the technology that I'm still. I don't know if I'm skeptical about. I'm just. I can't quite see the huge advantages. I mean, the difference between, you know, the. I mean, technologically, it's extraordinary, but when you go on a. You know, I went on a bullet train in China. When you go on a bullet train, it carries thousands of people.
- [24:02]
Scott Cooney
Amazing.
- [24:02]
Robert
Incredibly fast.
- [24:04]
Scott Cooney
Yeah. Amazing.
- [24:05]
Robert
Two cities. I mean, that would have taken like, 4, 000 Waymos on a road.
- [24:09]
Scott Cooney
Yeah.
- [24:10]
Robert
You know, to move that many people.
- [24:11]
Scott Cooney
Totally.
- [24:12]
Robert
But it's a different sort of travel. I mean, obviously, you know, know, zooming around a city is a very. You can't do that on a. On a bullet train. So it is obviously, obviously the store you want to go to, but.
- [24:22]
Scott Cooney
Was that one of those magnetic tracks?
- [24:24]
Robert
No, no, I didn't go on that one. That one. Yeah, there is one of those I had. That didn't go on that. No, it was with rail, but it was ridiculously smooth, and that blows terrifyingly fast. Yeah.
- [24:33]
Scott Cooney
Yeah.
- [24:34]
Robert
Anyway. Yes.
- [24:35]
Scott Cooney
Yeah.
- [24:36]
Robert
I mean, do you. I mean, do you feel. I think that's really what I want. Do you feel that will grow? It seems to be. I mean, you think that will become a more common experience for people to go in a vehicle like that, you know, which eventually won't even have steering wheels and.
- [24:50]
Scott Cooney
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I think it's. You know, it's interesting when you. When you look at these things and you look back in time and you look back at the iPhone. It's so obvious, right? It's so obvious. You look at the iPhone, you're like, duh. Of course people want their music, their web browser, and their phone all on one device. Like, duh. Like, okay, somebody thought of it, and it was genius at the time. But. But you look back at these trends, and it's like these kinds of things are so obvious. And when I look at robo taxis, that's kind of how I see it. I kind of see it. It's an obvious solution. It's just something that the economics by themselves are going to play that out and turn it into something that turns into a mass market solution for a lot of people, especially people who don't own cars, who live in cities. It's such an amazing solution for people like that. Hop in, hop out, pay, pay an amount of money. You know, it's like, it's, it's just, you know, it seems so obvious but, you know, there's obviously technological glitches to work out and stuff like that, so. But it seems like they've been. You know, I remember seeing Waymo's, feels like a long time ago in San Francisco, mapping that, mapping the streets, like constantly.
- [25:55]
Robert
Right.
- [25:56]
Scott Cooney
And you know, it'll take some time to roll it out, but I just feel like it's only a matter of time. And then it's one of those things that you've probably heard this expression, everything takes a long time and then it's done.
- [26:07]
Robert
Absolutely.
- [26:08]
Scott Cooney
There's some expression about that like stuff takes forever. Forever, forever. And then it takes no time whatsoever. Like it just clicks and it's just in. So I think we'll see a tipping point, some sort of inflection point on that S curve of adoption of, of the, of the autonomous driving. It's, you know, it's, it's stories like yours and mine, like, I'm like, my God, guys, I got in this car, it drove me somewhere and there was no driver. And it was amazing. I could play cards. There's like a table I could sit at, you know, like whatever. Yeah, yeah. It's just nice, that kind of stuff.
- [26:34]
Robert
Yes, yeah, yeah.
- [26:36]
Scott Cooney
People like technology.
- [26:38]
Robert
Yes.
- [26:38]
Scott Cooney
Yeah. I have not, as it turns out. They like interesting things.
- [26:42]
Robert
I can't understand why they, why we ever moved on from oil lamps and killing beavers for their blubber. Yeah.
- [26:51]
Scott Cooney
Let's bring the whale oil industry back. That's what I want to do.
- [26:55]
Robert
Whale oil, I think they've development that I think, you know, the things that you and I have seen, so the massive deployment of offshore, particularly offshore wind, but of wind turbines and the scale and the size of them. I remember being told 15 years ago, probably, you know, we're going to get up to something like 4 megawatts for a wind turbine and then we'll reach the kind of material limits.
- [27:18]
Scott Cooney
Right.
- [27:18]
Robert
And I don't know what the latest Chinese ones are, but they're in the 20s.
- [27:21]
Scott Cooney
I think it's 50. Hang on, I gotta Google this real quick. Okay.
- [27:27]
Robert
Yeah, I think, I mean they are phenomenal now. They are just crazy. I didn't know if it was 50. The size of them though is what.
- [27:33]
Scott Cooney
Hang on, I'm fact checking that real quick. Let's see. Oh, the biggest offshore wind turbine currently, currently 26 to 26 megawatts.
- [27:43]
Robert
Okay. Right. Yeah, I thought it was about 26, but maybe with, with the, your double, your double dragon. Yeah, that would be. If you've got two 26s, you're over 50, baby.
- [27:54]
Scott Cooney
There you go. Even, even gu can do math.
- [27:58]
Robert
Yeah, we can do that.
- [27:59]
Scott Cooney
I can do math. I can do that kind of math. That's easy.
- [28:02]
Robert
But I mean I think the, the, the thing that I've really seen and I'm hopefully going to go and see one very soon is when is, is what is batteries is that it's the battery technology that is, that has kind of. I feel it's. People have groped it in this country, in Australia, they definitely have. So there's been a government incentive to. You can fit a, a battery in your house because most, a huge number of people have solar here. It's very, very high percentage. And you then put a battery in and we're talking between 10 and 15 kilowatt hours. So it's that sort of size and they, and, and I can't remember the numbers again and I'm not going to look them up because it would take me too long, but it's. Hundreds of thousands of batteries have been put in since July this year in Australia. It is really phenomenal.
- [28:48]
Scott Cooney
It's amazing. And they're giving away electricity now?
- [28:52]
Robert
Yes, yeah, they have to give too much.
- [28:55]
Scott Cooney
Please take our electricity.
- [28:57]
Robert
Yeah, I mean that does happen occasionally in the UK but it's very complicated. Anyway, but what I'm saying is that step, you know, it's become economically viable to make that step where you can run say a city entirely from renewables because it's got enough battery capacity. And particularly I can't help thinking about places like Utrecht in the Netherlands where they've got, got huge numbers of shared cars that are also bi directionally charging and discharging and helping the grid. You know those sort of. I remember seeing graphics of that. And you will have seen this but like 10 years ago where you go, oh yeah, that's it, that's what it'd be like. But Nothing happened for 10 years. Right? Exactly the same thing really. And now suddenly you're going, oh my God. Utrecht is actually running off its cars for somewhere. Yeah. You know, you go, that is bonkers. Yeah.
- [29:50]
Scott Cooney
Yeah. Super, super cool. I mean, what they're doing with energy storage and especially with distributed storage and shaving, peak demand and demand response stuff is so fascinating. It's so fascinating. Have you seen Zoom? Z U m?
- [30:07]
Robert
Oh no. What's Zoom?
- [30:08]
Scott Cooney
Oh, you'd love this. Zoom is incredible. It's a bus, for, you know, for lack of a better word. So it started off, there was a woman in the Bay Area, San Francisco Bay area, who was frustrated with her kid getting on the public school bus and the challenges that happened, you know, any number of things, right? And she said, I bet we can do this better. You know, it's one of these things. And so as of today, I, I just toured the Zoom facility in Oakland and it was incredible. They have giant all electric school buses, right?
- [30:45]
Robert
Those are the big yellow school buses.
- [30:47]
Scott Cooney
Big yellow school bus.
- [30:48]
Robert
Yeah.
- [30:48]
Scott Cooney
Big.
- [30:49]
Narrator
Yeah.
- [30:49]
Scott Cooney
I don't, I don't know what color your school buses are in the uk.
- [30:51]
Robert
But we don't even have school buses. Our children have to walk barefoot through the snow.
- [30:57]
Scott Cooney
Through the snow, uphill, both ways. Got it.
- [30:59]
Robert
Yeah. No, we don't have specific buses like that. Yeah, okay. Yeah, okay.
- [31:06]
Scott Cooney
In, in America, it is the, if you look at it a certain way, it's the biggest mass transit system in America. Right. 25 million riders a day use this transit system. Right. And it's distributed and independently operated and managed. But the bottom line is that these electric school buses are solving so many challenges. This is like. Right, okay, the first electric school bus maybe was equivalent to the cfl. This is like an LED on crack. Okay, right. This, this bus, the batteries are humongous on these things. They, they drive the kids, drop them off at school, they, they plug the bus in, in, and then the thing just sucks down solar power all day. Right? Just like cruising on basically free energy. Fill these batteries up, these gigantic batteries and then they, they drive the kids around, drop them off at home, park the bus. The bus then powers the grid during peak demand.
- [31:59]
Robert
Duh.
- [32:00]
Scott Cooney
Right? So 5 to 9pm Electricity rates skyrocket. You've got this giant array of, of battery storage that happens to be in the form of a school bus.
- [32:09]
Robert
Right?
- [32:09]
Scott Cooney
But they're all plugged in and they're all bi directional and now they're like powering the school plus selling electricity to the grid and all this kind of stuff. And it's mind bogglingly, like straightforward and simple. But what's Beautiful. I love that. So many in the sustainability movement now are doing these human centered designs. So Zoom also has like an RFID chip. So it's like you. You scan in and scan out your card, I guess, when you get on the bus. So the school kids get on the bus, get off the bus.
- [32:36]
Narrator
Bus.
- [32:36]
Scott Cooney
They know what's up, right? And then their parents know where they are. They know. They know the kids on the bus or not on the bus. Oh, cool, he made it on the bus. Great. Whatever. I'm good. The bus is quiet, so any bullying that's happening, the bus driver's in here. Sit down, Rex.
- [32:55]
Robert
Yes. Stop picking on that kid.
- [32:58]
Scott Cooney
Stop picking on little Jimmy. So, so it's cut down on bullying. Like, this is the thing. It's like. And it's quiet, right? So it's like you're Dr. Around. Kids can. They're not like, damaging their hearing, you know, the bus driver doesn't damage his hearing, you know, and then it. There's no fumes. This is the thing is, like, the school buses typically, like, they take care of the lower and moderate. Moderate income kids in the United States, right? And so those are the ones most exposed to diesel fumes, as always, which of course, like, starts their day in a bad way. And then they get to school, and then they're a little, like, spacey. And then the teacher's like, pay attention. And then they're mad. And then, you know, like, so it just solves so many problems. It's so such a beautiful, elegant solution. And it's. And it's growing. So it's like growing super fast in the United States. So it's only a matter of time. It's like it hasn't changed in 200 years or whatever. It hasn't changed in a long time. And then, boom, it's just gonna. It's gonna be completely different. So, yeah, I don't know. Stuff like that is that. That. That trips me out. Just, like, I sit back and I just, like, admire the genius of this woman and her two, you know, co founders who started this company. And now it's like this booming company hiring a bunch of people, doing. Just solving all these problems all at once. You know, it's just because I had.
- [34:11]
Robert
Heard about the buses, but I didn't realize. So it started in Berkeley then. Is that. Is it started in California? Is that.
- [34:17]
Scott Cooney
Of course, of course. It was a Bay Area startup, you know. Yeah.
- [34:23]
Robert
So, yeah, it is. I mean, it is. We've lived through some fascinating history. When you think. When I Think back to when I lived it, spent a lot of time in California, you know, the positivity cluster of Silicon Valley in San Francisco was remarkable. It was innovation noticed. It was incredible.
- [34:40]
Scott Cooney
The culture is all about creativity and innovation. There's arts and technology is the foundation, the backbone of Silicon Valley. And it. That I don't think will ever change. I think, you know, honestly, Robert, just between you and me, I think it's the redwoods, the redwood trees, they're just like, you know, you can't go outside and see these redwoods and go, yeah.
- [34:58]
Robert
Not be.
- [34:58]
Scott Cooney
Yeah. You know.
- [34:59]
Robert
Yeah.
- [34:59]
Scott Cooney
It's just inspires creativity, you know, California's coastline and the, the, just the ocean and like the surfing and the great white sharks that are just right off the coast just like waiting to eat every surfer. That's quite, just inspires a lot of creativity.
- [35:14]
Robert
Quite similar to Sydney. When I see people swimming out in the bay, I go, what the hell are they? Just fish food, you know, that's.
- [35:21]
Scott Cooney
I heard that's. No, I'm good.
- [35:29]
Robert
This episode is brought to you by Hankook. The Hankook ion tyre is built exclusively for electric vehicles, engineered to deliver what EV drivers need most confident grip, quietness, energy efficiency and long mileage. As the official tyre partner of Formula E HongKook proves its EV technology is at the highest level of performance and brings that same innovation to every ion tyre on the road. But, I mean, I think, I don't think I'll again go into any contemporary situation in America, but I think there have been some slightly less positive figures connected with Silicon Valley in the last few years, which is, you know, challenging and difficult, but I think, I think it's really good and I think it's important you underline that there is an underlying very positive, very creative, you know, not dictated by, by dogma or anything, you know, because I think that, you know, just that, that, you know, the, the innovation. I mean, solar pv, you know, didn't come. Wasn't invented, same as this. The lithium ion battery wasn't invented. It's actually invented in Oxford in England, the early lithium ion battery, but by an American professor.
- [36:45]
Scott Cooney
Oh, cool.
- [36:45]
Robert
You know, so, so he was. That was in the. When I was a hippie with lots of long hair in Oxford in the. In the 1970s, there were some scientists in a building I know really well. He used to cycle past it regularly who developed the rechargeable lithium ion battery. You know, it is so weird to think back, that's all happened in my lifetime. You know, that's pretty Cool.
- [37:03]
Scott Cooney
I just, I want to see the pictures of you with the long hair, though.
- [37:06]
Robert
Oh, it's embarrassing.
- [37:07]
Scott Cooney
Yeah.
- [37:09]
Robert
Well, I mean, I think the thing is that I used to get proposition by, by heterosexual men, not gay men. I would have been happy if gay men were propositioning and they'd be like, ah. And I go, hello. Quite a deep voice. Oh, my God.
- [37:29]
Scott Cooney
Yeah.
- [37:30]
Robert
No, this is incredible. So, okay, here's another one that I didn't see coming and has come very quickly, and I'd love your take on that, which is data centers. Well, I think particularly the AI data centers, because we've had, you know, you and I are only able to do this because of data centers and networking and all those things. And anybody listening or watching this, that's where, where's it stored, this video, let me tell you. In a massive building, probably in a desert, right. Using gigantic amounts of water. But I mean that you will have been aware of this as well. I mean, that argument that people would used to say, where, oh, if we all have electric cars, the grid will melt. I remember hearing that so many times. And all that's happened since you've had electric cars is the grid is healthier and operating in a more, more balanced way. And then suddenly data centers just go boom. And everyone goes, holy cow, we can't power. There's not enough power in the world to make these work. You know, just.
- [38:20]
Scott Cooney
Right, right, right. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's one of these things that again, we'll look back in five years and be like, oh, that's right. That was a problem at one point, you know. Yeah, I just, I, I, the, the thing is, I, I look at problems in, in, I put them typically in three buckets. If there's a cultural problem, if there's a business problem, or if there's a technological problem. Right, right. Cultural problem. Try to get people to buy more EVs. That's a cultural problem. Right, yeah. The, the business problem is how do you make a business case for it? And then the technological problem, can we actually solve this problem? And so whenever something is a, is a technological problem, I tend not to worry about it because it's, it's one of these things that the economics alone will drive somebody to create something that does something that solves the problem in all the ways, just like the school bus, you know, it's just like somebody will come up with something that solves all these problems. So it already is the case that the best way to power these data centers is on site Solar. So there is a strong return on investment for that. Put some battery storage, do some solar right on site. No grid interconnectivity problems behind the meter. You have your own little micro grid and you can power these guys. If they're out in the middle of the desert. It's a great place to do it. You know the tech companies that have the money for this kind of stuff can buy the land, put the solar, set the thing up and then. And then what? They're not paying electricity for this gigantic thing. It's just more profitable for them.
- [39:48]
Robert
Yeah.
- [39:48]
Scott Cooney
So it's, we'll see how many of them get built in certain ways and I think we'll see more and more as 1, 2, 5, 10 get launched that are all solar, that are working perfectly well, that are saving their owners money. Me, you know, it's, it's just going to become a no brainer.
- [40:04]
Robert
So. Yeah.
- [40:05]
Scott Cooney
Is what it is not. I mean I'm greatly oversimplifying but that's, that's kind of how I look at, you know, the data center issue.
- [40:12]
Robert
I mean it's got. It absolutely will be the economic imperative that drives it because you, if you're running a thing that's using megawatts of electricity every minute and you're burning gas to produce that electricity, going, hang on a minute, there's, there's 4,000 acres right behind my, my data center.
- [40:28]
Scott Cooney
Yeah.
- [40:29]
Robert
Solar panels on them.
- [40:30]
Scott Cooney
If they were geographically dependent, you know, it would, I think it would make it if, if you had to have a data center that was right next to some facility, then okay, maybe you're constrained by land or water or some other resources, whatever. But I mean data centers, more or less, I mean again, greatly oversimplifying, more or less. They're pretty location independent and so places like Iceland that have a ton of extra electricity, just geothermal and they're just.
- [40:56]
Robert
And they're cold, it does make sense to put them there.
- [40:58]
Scott Cooney
Yeah, yeah, sure. Of course. Helps with the cooling. Yeah.
- [41:01]
Robert
Yes.
- [41:04]
Scott Cooney
So yeah, so I think there will be, there will be technological answers to that that we'll look back on and go duh. That was pretty straightforward. The energy efficiency aspect of it too. It just makes so much sense financially for those companies to invest in the energy efficiency, make those data centers as efficient as possible is what it is. The first computer used a lot of electricity and cranked out a pretty bad product. Now my laptop can last 8 hours on it on a single charge and drinks out this, you know. So. Yeah, yeah, it just changes tech Is tech. Is tech.
- [41:36]
Robert
Tech is tech. Well, I mean, I think the other one, when the other thing that we're now faced in the UK and I think is going to emerge elsewhere, which is, I'm trying to think which one it is. It's this first one. What are your three things?
- [41:49]
Scott Cooney
There's the tech, business and culture.
- [41:53]
Robert
Cultural. Okay, so it's business and cultural. This one is which, so there's been, we've had an announcement that we're having a 3 pence per mile road tax for electric vehicles starting in 2028 in the UK, which is, you know, which I've always said that there's no other solution to replacing the income that the government got from fuel tax, you know, liquid fuel tax. Really, really high in the uk.
- [42:15]
Scott Cooney
Yeah.
- [42:15]
Robert
And it's billions of pounds to the, to the treasury in the UK comes from that. And that's. And it's already gone down because we now have a million and a half electric that aren't using that fuel.
- [42:26]
Scott Cooney
Right, right.
- [42:27]
Robert
That's quite a lot of fuel. You know, if you actually think how much, you know, how much liquid fuel a million and a half cars burn through in a year. It's a lot.
- [42:35]
Scott Cooney
It's a lot.
- [42:36]
Robert
So, but, so that, you know, that I just wonder what, what's happening in say, Hawaii, for instance? I mean, presumably there is, is there a tax on fuel or is there a tax, do you pay a tax to use the roads or how, how is that dealt with there?
- [42:51]
Scott Cooney
That, that's a good question. You know, we have, we have a. Federally, we have a gas tax and so it, it just taxes gasoline. And then they have started taxing evs heavier in registration in a lot of places. I'm not entirely honestly, Robert, I, I don't pay that close of attention to my own bills, sadly here in Hawaii. So I, I don't actually, I don't actually know. It's, it's a good, good question. I'll have to get back to you on. But there's some combo of those things and people are trying to find an equitable kind of path forward for that, that, that, you know, lost revenue for the government.
- [43:25]
Robert
Yeah, I mean, it is certainly. I think it's going to be a, you know, it's one of the side effects of the, you know, a change in cultural. Well, in a way it's like landlines and cell phones. You know, we all had landlines. I, I had two in an apartment I lived in, in London. Had two landlines because one was for a fax Oh, I was, I was so modern. I had a fax line. You're so cool. Yeah, no, not many people had a fax line like I had anyway. And that's, don't, we don't even remember. It's totally dead technology. But is that thing that shift when say if there are 25 million electric cars in the UK, that that means that the exchequers income from liquid fuel drops by a phenomenal. I mean it just disappears. So, and then you've still got to pay to maintain roads and how do you do it? You know. So I think the, this, the problem, the initial problem is it will put some people off who might have bought an electric car in the next two or three years and they go, I don't want to pay three pence a mile road tax. And it is a difficult thing to impose. Anyway, we don't need to talk about that because I think that, you know, it's, that's something that's a big shift that's going to take place regardless of what you and I pontificate.
- [44:35]
Scott Cooney
I'll tell you, I'll tell you what.
- [44:36]
Robert
What.
- [44:37]
Scott Cooney
When I first bought, I, I drive a Model 3 and it's like seven years old now and I'm still waiting for Clean Technica to get a Rivian, you know, loaner for a year. Right. You know, I just, I just keep asking him like Rivian, are you guys ready to just like give Clean Technica's leaders a Rivian to drive around? You have no idea. We'll be blogging about this constantly. Like come on. Anyway, they, if you're listening, Rivian, we're still here. Anyway, so I, so I drive this seven year old Model 3 and you know, it's, it's a great car. It's, it's done well, zero maintenance. Seven years. Like I literally had to replace a dashboard because I park in the sun. And that's kind of. Right. It's kind of all the maintenance that's been done. But back in the day, the incentives that they had for, for electric cars, first of all, you had no, none of this gas tax. Right?
- [45:27]
Robert
Right.
- [45:27]
Scott Cooney
But, but they made airport parking free.
- [45:30]
Robert
Right.
- [45:30]
Scott Cooney
Which is expensive. Then they made parking at any metered spot in the city free.
- [45:36]
Robert
Wow.
- [45:37]
Scott Cooney
You could drive in the HOV lane, which you still can. I mean they just, the, the perks for an EV were out of control when I first got the car. And that's, you know.
- [45:47]
Robert
Chris, quick, can you quickly explain what an HOV lane is for the.
- [45:51]
Scott Cooney
Oh yeah, sorry. High occupancy. Carpool lane. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, so if you, if you have more than one drive one more than one person, you can drive in it. Or if you're driving by yourself in an ev, you could drive in it. So anyway, it was a nice little perk, keeps you out of traffic a little bit. But they took all these incentives away because it was just once there was EV adoption, they were like, oh, this is getting a little out of control. And like, oh, this is, it's kind of a rich person's privilege, you know, to be able to park at the airport for free with your ev.
- [46:21]
Robert
Yeah, yeah.
- [46:22]
Scott Cooney
But it was, it was great. You know, it got the ball rolling with all that kind of stuff. And then they, they took it away. And for a little while I was kind of bummed. I was like, oh God, I was really enjoying just parking anywhere and not having to be like, oh, where's my quarters? You know? But then they've replaced the meter so you can like use your credit cards so I have no more excuses and all that stuff. But culturally, these shifts will happen and then in a little while people won't even notice that. 3 seconds cent, 3 pence, 3 cents, 3 pence per mile kind of thing because they're saving so much money in other places. Yeah, we'll, we'll see how it plays out. But that's, yeah, that's kind of a little story of Hawaii's history and the cultural shift that, that went on here.
- [46:59]
Robert
Yes.
- [47:00]
Scott Cooney
Now, now we're at one of the top EV adopting states in the country in, in the United States. So.
- [47:04]
Robert
Right. Yeah.
- [47:05]
Scott Cooney
Just because it makes sense financially.
- [47:07]
Robert
The only, the only downside is you can't have any Chinese car. I mean, I don't think anyone's gonna bother, but I mean.
- [47:17]
Scott Cooney
I know, I know. I haven't even tried any of these. I haven't even seen a byd. And it's, it kills me. I'm just like, this is the third biggest automaker in the world now.
- [47:24]
Robert
Like, it is extraordinary. I mean, that's what. It's very noticeable in the Australia. We actually feel this is utterly unconfirmed. It's just, we've just assumed it, that the Chinese automakers go, let's try and sell some, some, some. Let's launch our cars in a western country. Oh, Australia is quite near. Yeah, let's send them all there. I mean, they have every. I see cars every day. What the hell is that? I don't even know what they are. You know, that's awesome. There's a lot of. So BYD are huge here. When you drive down a big motorway freeway in Australia there'll be Audi, you know, an Audi showroom there and there's a BMW there and there's a Volkswagen there. And then five times bigger is BYD with a bigger sign.
- [48:06]
Scott Cooney
Wow.
- [48:06]
Robert
It's very, very noticeable.
- [48:08]
Scott Cooney
That's awesome. It's amazing. I would love to see that at some point. That sounds really cool. One of the other things we talked about, how these things are growing so fast. BYD is, I mean my God, I can't get over this company that I had never even heard of. Five, six, ten years ago. It wasn't even on the radar. And I think we were talking a lot more about xpeng. I think we thought XPENG was going to end up being the big player but BYD just kind of of ran away with it and it's, it's amazing. It was 2019, they were the 49th biggest automaker in the world. 2019. As of 2024, five years later they were the third biggest.
- [48:50]
Robert
Yeah.
- [48:50]
Scott Cooney
In the world. Talk about, I mean exponential growth. Their, their sales from 23 to 24 rose something like 40 some odd percent. Volkswagen is like the top, top in the world. Flat sales. Toyota flat sales. Every Hyundai, all the guys down, down, down, down, down, down or flat. And, and it's like BYD just exponentially growing.
- [49:10]
Robert
Yeah.
- [49:10]
Scott Cooney
And again we're going to look back at this and be like duh. This was so obvious. Like we, we really, you know, people want electric cars for Frank, for crying out loud. You know, so let's make some electric cars.
- [49:21]
Robert
Yeah, yeah. Because one of the little things I, when I was going through all the list of possible topics was electric trucks and buses. But so I mean in London people are very used to them. All our double deckers buses, red ducker. But not all of them. Huge percentage of them now are electric and they're all made by byd. So if they go past you, it's just a red double decker bus. Really common sight in London. It's only when you look at the front, it says BYT right at the front little bag and it's an electric bus. So we got, I think we're getting up for two, two and a half. Over two and a half thousand buses in London are electric. And it's made a noticeable difference when you breathe in London all the taxes and all the buses are electric. But last year, sorry this year BYD have had a 213% increase in sales of electric trucks. And buses, which is crazy, isn't it? Because occasionally I'll still say a headline that says, no one wants EVs anymore. Sales have crashed. It's all over. How do you manage to do that?
- [50:18]
Scott Cooney
It's, you know, the, the, the PR world is an amazing place. It really is. And it's. I just, I scratch my head. I'm like, my God, you guys are so, you guys are so genius. Like, if you just come fight for the good side.
- [50:31]
Robert
Yeah.
- [50:31]
Scott Cooney
You know, crying out loud, bring those brains over here. Like, how did you make this? How do you make this up? But, yeah, I mean, it's. For a long time, it was, you know, we were like, scratching our head. Zach and I were like, looking at stuff and we're like, there's a lot of news out there that's saying that, like, EV demand is, like, softening or falling off and all this kind of stuff. And I was like, I don't know. We're looking at the sales report, airports, it still looks pretty good. And when it, when it came down to it, it was all. Cars were crashing.
- [50:59]
Robert
Yes.
- [50:59]
Scott Cooney
Gas. Gas especially.
- [51:01]
Robert
Yeah.
- [51:02]
Scott Cooney
The EVs were slowly, like, you know, the growth was slowing. Right. But it was still growing.
- [51:08]
Robert
Still growing.
- [51:08]
Scott Cooney
So kind of, kind of amazing how you can spin those stories. Like, it's, it's just, it's really, it's a skill set.
- [51:15]
Robert
But the thing. I mean, I'm sure you, you are aware of this and, and we should talk about your, your, your event that's coming up. But the, the little. It's these. Occasionally you just see a little thing. So I saw a refrigerator at an, at an event, and it was just like, why is there a refrigerator here? It had a battery in. It had a 2 kilowatt hour battery. It can run for like two days, keeping your food frozen and your everything chilled if there's a power cut. That's the reason they've done it. And the company that made it said, oh, you know, we've done it just as an experiment. But what we're going to do is put a 6 kilowatt hour battery because it's the same. The same. It adds like, it adds some dollars. It's really not. It doesn't add that much to the cost. But what it also means then is you. You would have all your, you all your things, your dishwasher, your washing machine, your tumble dryer, your refrigerator will all have batteries in.
- [52:04]
Scott Cooney
Yeah.
- [52:04]
Robert
And it will just become a thing. You don't even think about it, and you don't even Know they're there. What it means is you put your tumble dryer on because you really need something dry in and it's winter and it's. You shouldn't have it running because it's its peak time. It doesn't matter. It's not using any. It charges when it's cheap. You know, that's it. Machinery. That's smart. I was going to say the smart in the home, excuse my French is what I think, really, because I've, I've gone through that early adoptive period, I'm sure you have, where I was managing everything and making, switching everything off.
- [52:33]
Scott Cooney
Of course. Yeah.
- [52:34]
Robert
No one's going to do that.
- [52:35]
Scott Cooney
Stupid. Just early adopters. It's like, you know, you and me and like a bunch of, a lot of other people, like we were interested, curious, like having fun with this stuff, nerding out over it, you know, and, and I, I didn't mind, you know, I was like, okay, it's not convenient. But I kind of like, you know, I kind of like tinkering with stuff and it was kind of fun to see how it would play out against your electric bill and this, that, the other. But yeah, it's. They got it. They got to make this mass market and this is obviously one way to do it. Have you seen, have you seen copper? It's a induction cook stove. Has the battery integrated in it as well.
- [53:06]
Robert
Yes, yes. That was the other one. Yes.
- [53:08]
Scott Cooney
Oh my God. Just.
- [53:09]
Robert
Now that makes a lot of sense because of that power, the power demand for that.
- [53:13]
Scott Cooney
Yeah, yeah. And, and, and again, you know, just like with Zoom, the school buses, they solve so many problems. This human centered design is like so genius and so copper. It's, it's. Okay, let's start off with the fact that it's a stunningly beautiful stove. Right? They made it, they made it so intuitive and beautiful and these really nice handles and all this kind of stuff. The thing is, you know, 30% whatever, more efficient than a regular electric stove. Obviously. It's twice as efficient in terms of the conversion of energy as a gas stove. No combustion after effects. Right. So like when you're cooking over a natural gas stove, you're breathing benzene and formaldehyde and all these things and that stuff is percolating through the house and whatever. So I mean, it's obviously these are carcinogens you don't want in your house. Right. Coming out of your natural gas appliance. So the induction cook stove by itself is just, it's a really awesome thing. However, in older homes they don't have a 220 line. Right. So it's not easy to convert away from gas. These guys put the battery in there, plug it into a 110 and it just charges. It knows when the utility pricing is cheap, and typically that's when solar is peaking. Right. It sucks all that energy down at, you know, 3 cents a kilowatt hour and then cooks for you at night when it would be 20 cents a kilowatt hour with time of use. Time of use pricing. Right. And, and you don't have to drill holes. You don't have to punch a hole in the wall. You don't have to deal with potential asbestos or lead paint in older homes. Just plug it into a 110, you're good to go. The induction is like. And I saw this and I was like, God, just like, I love that they've just solved all these problems and then it's, you know, it's pricier up front, you know, but pays itself over time, like a lot of these other innovations. And this is. We're still at the beginning of the S curve with the induction cook stove. And, and it's, it's hitting the inflection point and taking off. And, and the cool part about it is, like, with the economies of scale, price is just going to keep coming down on these products. Like, it just gets better and better and better and cheaper and cheaper. And whereas, you know, the, the traditional stuff is just. It's, it's the price. It is. They've innovated it to the point where they could.
- [55:19]
Robert
Yeah.
- [55:20]
Scott Cooney
Not going to innovate anymore. Natural gas is just going to keep costing more, whatever. So it's just, so they've just like. I just love that they've solved all the problems. The induction cook stove, that copper stove, I was like, oh, I want one so bad. It's so nice. It's so nice.
- [55:34]
Robert
Yes, I think I, I know because, like, we've recently. Not recently, but about in the last, I think, seven or eight years, we bought a new stove, which I'd never done in my life before because. Because we had gas in our house and I've now got. It's all electric. And as soon as I saw that stove, I went, oh, yeah, I can't justify buying another one. But damn, that wasn't, that wasn't available when I bought that stuff because it's such a. I couldn't actually look at it. So you've looked at it more because I just saw it.
- [56:02]
Scott Cooney
I can't even know oh man. No, no, Robert, it's, it's, it's amazing. And you know the induction, you can just dial to a perfect temperature. Right. So it's like. And it's perfectly even heating. And then as soon as you take the pot off the stove, you can put your hand on it. Like you don't burn your hand. That blows me away.
- [56:17]
Robert
That stuff is. We got, we have part. Our stove we have is partly induction. So I'm used to that. You get that cooking. Yeah, yeah.
- [56:25]
Scott Cooney
I still have an electric stove and it still burns my hand, so.
- [56:28]
Robert
Right.
- [56:29]
Scott Cooney
But yeah, I mean it was amazing. So they say they dial it exactly to the temperature that you want and they can, they can melt chocolate. Chocolate. Like you don't need a double boiler. Right. To soften the heat.
- [56:41]
Robert
Exactly.
- [56:41]
Scott Cooney
You can just melt it right on the, right on the burner. I mean that, that boys. They dial it to the exact melting temperature of dark chocolate. You just have this goo of dark chocolate and you can dip your fruit in it and enjoy saving the climate. You're like, yes, I'm eating chocolate covered strawberries and I'm saving the world and I'm proud to be making the sacrifices I need to make to save this world as I eat my, my chocolate covered strawberries.
- [57:03]
Robert
Yeah. Yeah. We won't discuss the fact that the strawberries are probably flown in on a 74.
- [57:09]
Scott Cooney
I mean.
- [57:09]
Robert
Yeah, let's forget that for a moment. I just don't want to take up. We've nearly done an hour. But the last thing I want to talk about, which I don't know if I think, I mean I read about this on Clean Technica but earlier this year we saw a very large electric ferry being built in Tasmania. Tasmania, extraordinary machine which is now on its sea trials. But there's just, there's this announcement from Catl who, who we went to visit when I was in China, their research place. But they are saying ocean going electric ships are within sight.
- [57:43]
Scott Cooney
Yeah.
- [57:44]
Robert
That they would have sort of containers that have batteries in. I mean you then go, no, that's not, I don't believe that's possible because I mean in the one thing the like the dirtiest thing we're all still doing is ship shipping. 40 of it to move oil. Very important to always remind people of that. God, 40. I didn't even know that local shipping is oil. Yeah. Oh no. It's really worth having that one up your sleeve. You know, let's cut that down to like 1%. You know, would make a huge difference.
- [58:08]
Scott Cooney
Serious.
- [58:09]
Robert
But that's amazing that. That really is. I think the batteries. It's very hard not to be completely obsessed with batteries. I try not to be. I'm not allowed to talk about it in my fat. With my fat family. I'm not allowed to mention the B word. Does it snow?
- [58:24]
Scott Cooney
We get it, Robert.
- [58:26]
Robert
Yeah, exactly. But the fact that, you know, when we saw the batteries. The battery. The batteries weren't in that ship, but we saw the. The space put aside for them, it wasn't that big. That ship is lighter than if they were using diesel. So the engines are lighter. The fuel tanks would have been heavier and bigger. Bigger. So the batteries. It's. It's this weird thing. I mean, when it's on that scale, you're talking. They've got multiple megawatt hours of batteries on that ship. You know, I don't even know what it is, but the actual electric motors are about the size of a dining table. I mean, they're big. Yeah. You know, I'm not saying that I don't think I could lift one up, even though. Go to the gym every now and then. They were enormous. But in comparison with a marine diesel engine, which I've seen, which are the size of a half house, they were very small.
- [59:16]
Scott Cooney
You know, that's awesome. I. I can't wait. There'll be a. There'll be a cruise ship that's all electric someday. And I. I'm looking forward to my retirement. I'm gonna spend a lot of time on electric, all electric cruise ships.
- [59:26]
Robert
All electric, solar powered cruise ship.
- [59:28]
Scott Cooney
Yeah.
- [59:29]
Robert
Yeah.
- [59:30]
Scott Cooney
Fishing off the back.
- [59:31]
Robert
Oh, yeah. Very nice. Yes. Yeah. Nice. Because that is a thing. I mean, I've been on one. I filmed on a cruise ship.
- [59:37]
Scott Cooney
Yeah.
- [59:37]
Robert
And it was like. It was amazing. And it was one. It was an American. American night. A huge, huge thing. But when we left Portsmouth, which we did, I went up on the top deck and we were filming up there, and there was this black cloud going over our heads.
- [59:51]
Scott Cooney
Yeah.
- [59:51]
Robert
Oh, my goodness.
- [59:52]
Scott Cooney
Not clean. Not clean.
- [59:55]
Robert
So quickly tell me what you're up to because you've got an exhibition going and a new web page. Do plug that, because I think it's amazing what you're working on.
- [60:05]
Scott Cooney
Oh, thanks, Robert. I mean, it's. You know, your viewers will be very used to it. We're calling it the Electric Home Show. It was. It was. You know, it was funny that I met Dan, your CEO.
- [60:18]
Robert
Yeah.
- [60:19]
Scott Cooney
He reached out and said, hey, you know, like, let's. Let's talk about potentially partnering up on something. You Know, we do these cool shows and I'm like, oh my gosh. Well, that's awesome. I would, I would love that. And we are actually running our first show. And he was like, really? And I was like, yeah, yeah. So we, you know, we're not as focused on the EVs, so it's interesting we saw this opportunity to kind of fill in this gap, gap in the home space a little bit. You know, really pushing heat pump water heaters, the induction cook stoves, the heat pump AC units and gas or heat pump dryers to replace gas dryers and stuff like that. So we, we kind of saw that opportunity. A lot of e bike rides and stuff like that and obviously evs will be there. But yeah, ours is called the Electric Home show and it's in, I, I, we managed to get the, the prime spot. We're on Earth Day weekend in, in Hawaii. Hawaii. So the, the, the second biggest expo center in the state of Hawaii. We are, we're going to be exhibiting, so we'll have a expo hall there. We've got, we've got programming for the industry professionals to come and get together and have like a big day focused on industry and removing bottlenecks in the industry to get more heat pump water heaters put in and that sort of thing. And yeah, I mean, it's going to be a lot of fun.
- [61:33]
Robert
We got.
- [61:33]
Scott Cooney
Bill McKibben is coming to, to be our keynote speaker.
- [61:36]
Robert
Amazing.
- [61:36]
Scott Cooney
Yeah, he's, he's been a lifelong hero of mine. That guy is, he is such a badass. He's, he's incredible. So, so yeah, he, his book Deep Economy sort of shifted my, my trajectory in life. I read that book and I became a far more effective human and a far more effective environmentalist reading that book. And I just, I owe so much to him. So I'm super excited to have him out. Yeah. It's April, April 24th through the 26th in Honolulu. It's electric home show.com and yeah, which should be a lot of fun.
- [62:07]
Robert
So I'm now, I was automatically going, how on earth can I wangle? Yeah, yeah, I want to come along. Wow, that does sound amazing. I'm really pleased. That's really, really exciting. And I mean it, it's also, I think really, you know, it's got a certain resonance to it, you know, that it's, that it's in Hawaii because it's like, wow, that is, you know, it makes sense to, to people who've never been there. You know, I've never been to Hawaii. I don't. I've not had any experience of it, but as soon as you hear that, you go, oh, yeah, I'd want to have more solar on my house if I lived in Hawaii than. And I'd want to be able to not. I not want to buy fossil fuel. Makes very, you know.
- [62:45]
Scott Cooney
Yeah, it's just. Just like California and the redwoods and the coast and all that stuff. Like, nature does inspire, right. So we walk out the door here, we see rainbows. We. We have the beautiful ocean, beautiful coastline, rocky, like, beautiful space. And I think it inspires a lot of people to be. Be, you know, at the very least, cognizant of this stuff. And if you can connect the dots for them and be like, here's all the ways you can kind of do this, then you really can move markets. So. Yeah. Yeah, that's. It's exciting. Bill, you know, Bill. Bill is a great guy, and he. I talked to him about it, and he said. He said this is exactly what the world needs, is to touch and feel and experience how much better an induction cook stove that has a battery in it is than what they're cooking on right now. And they need to experience all this. All these cool things. So it makes. It.
- [63:29]
Robert
No, it makes such a huge difference if you can do that. That is fantastic. I mean, that is. You know, what originally inspired us? You put someone in an electric car that's never been in one, and they come back and go. I mean, I think my best. The best line I ever heard was a woman who just said, oh, it's a car. I went, yeah. Because she was like, this thing. Oh, my God, it's electric. I know. It's a car. It's got all the disadvantages of cars. You've got to park it, you've got to charge it, you've got to do all those things.
- [63:53]
Scott Cooney
Pain in the ass.
- [63:54]
Robert
But it just goes along the road like a car. Yeah. And that's, in a way, like, this is a stove, only you're not breathing in horrible gases, you know, and it's much easier to use, and it's much cleaner to use, and it's easy to clean. I mean, those. The amount of time I've spent cleaning old gas cookers that are the. Fat boy, you know, they.
- [64:12]
Scott Cooney
This is the. This. These are the things that we need to, like, talk about more. Right. Like, how. How much better this stuff is than what we were doing before it.
- [64:19]
Robert
Yes.
- [64:19]
Scott Cooney
Have you ever used a diesel generator? You know, like.
- [64:23]
Robert
Yes, I've been near them.
- [64:25]
Scott Cooney
Yeah, man, they're. They are nasty. They smell terrible. But, you know, and, and, and just like the gunk that builds up just from the fumes, like condensing on the side, it just gets disgusting. I mean, gas handles, you know, you, you go to fill up at a, at a petrol station and, you know, you touch that gas handle and it's just like the, whatever it is, it's disgusting, you know, so you, you start to snap people out of this by, by being like, hey, plug in your car and it's clean. Your hand is clean. The. There's no settling of goo.
- [64:56]
Robert
Yeah. Actually there was an amazing graphic I saw the other day, which was, you know, when. Which I, I know I did. Every time you'd fill your car, you. You stop filling it. You pull the thing out and it goes drip, drip on the ground. You don't even know. Every time you put the thing back and it does that. Well, they've. Someone's worked out in America if you could capture all those drips, you could.
- [65:16]
Scott Cooney
It was.
- [65:17]
Robert
You know, you could fuel 14 million cars. I mean, it's not like a little bit. It's thousands and thousands of gallons, tens of thousands gallons just chucked away and it evaporates and you breathe that in and it's toxic. Let's, let's. Let's not end on a low note. Let's have another. Tell me the name of the show again.
- [65:37]
Scott Cooney
Is the Electric Home Show?
- [65:39]
Robert
Electric Home Show. Brilliant. No, brilliant. Oh, I'm really excited to see how that goes.
- [65:44]
Scott Cooney
Thank you. I hope you can make it. It would be. It would be such an honor to have you out here.
- [65:48]
Robert
So. Oh, maybe one time I can, I can wangle it, but. Thank you, Scott. So it's been. I mean, I know we've rambled all over the place, but it's been real fun talking to you. Thank you so much.
- [65:57]
Scott Cooney
It's been a pleasure, Robert. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a. It's been a real joy.
- [66:01]
Robert
So great stuff. Really hope you enjoyed that. It was fantastic. Fun talking to Scott. What an amazing dude. I'm really excited about their show that they're doing in, in April next year. Please do check it out. We'll put all the links in the show notes for this episode, but that's it. So please do tell any of your friends and families about the everything electric pod, because we do come across some incredible people on here. We're shortly going to be recording a very exciting episode with Imogen, Jack and I doing a catch up for 2025 and I'm looking forward to doing that. And then, and then it will be Christmas and New Year, which I wish you all the very best for, particularly for the New year and for 2026. Let us hope it is positive and safe. Let's hope everything is wonderful. And that's it. Please do subscribe to this channel. If you haven't done already, Please do check out everything, electric cars, if you haven't ever seen that, because that's really the kind of original channel that we started 15 now getting on for 16 years ago. And that's all. If you have been, thank you for watching.