Zapheap, Secret Launches & Breaking Down The New EV Grant! | Everything Electric Podcast

Summary

Episode Summary: "Zapheap, Secret Launches & Breaking Down The New EV Grant!" | Everything Electric Podcast

Release Date: July 28, 2025
Host: Robert Llewellyn (The Fully Charged Show)

In this vibrant episode of the Everything Electric Podcast, hosts Robert Llewellyn, Jack, and Imogen delve into a multitude of topics that bridge the realms of electric vehicles (EVs), sustainability, and the latest industry developments. From their recent experiences filming the pilot of "Zapheap Challenge" to dissecting the nuances of the new Electric Vehicle Grant, the conversation is both insightful and engaging. Below is a detailed breakdown of the episode's key discussions, enriched with notable quotes and timestamps for reference.

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1. Behind the Scenes of Zapheap Challenge

The episode kicks off with the hosts sharing their recent venture into filming the pilot episode of "Zapheap Challenge." Imogen recounts the grueling 10-hour challenge, highlighting the dedication and camaraderie among the team.

• Imogen (00:53): "We started the day at 7am... the 10 hours of the challenge probably began in earnest at about midday."

The trio reflects on the intense shooting schedule, with Robert expressing his exhaustion while reminiscing about past projects.

• Robert (02:00): "I was waiting for the advert to finish."
• Jack (03:16): "It was extraordinary... seeing how it gets made has not taken away from the magic of it at all."

A memorable moment was Kathy Rogers' visit, sparking nostalgia for Robert as he recalls the program's origins.

• Robert (04:00): "Kathy Rogers... she was so, so thrilled to see we were doing it."

Jack adds a humorous touch by describing the physical toll of the shoot, emphasizing the hands-on experience of working with electric motors and batteries.

2. Secret Launches and Upcoming EV Projects

Transitioning from their Zapheap experience, Jack teases an upcoming secret project, maintaining an air of mystery around a new electric vehicle from a legacy carmaker.

• Jack (09:18): "I went somewhere in Europe to visit a certain legacy car maker and take a first look at their new electric vehicle."

He hints at groundbreaking battery technology and software advancements that could redefine the brand's stance in the EV market.

• Jack (10:46): "This car changes that radically... it's cutting edge in terms of battery technology."

The conversation briefly touches upon the challenges of keeping such projects under wraps, adding intrigue for the listeners awaiting the September 5th reveal.

3. Analyzing the New Electric Vehicle Grant

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to unpacking the newly announced Electric Vehicle Grant of £3,750 for cars priced under £37,000. The hosts share their perspectives, balancing optimism with critical analysis.

• Robert (19:33): "It's a big message that the government is serious about this transition."
• Imogen (21:42): "The confusion is... it's really interesting... it's massively varied in terms of which car and which brand."

The discussion delves into the complexities of the grant's criteria, such as sustainability of manufacturing processes and battery sourcing, which inadvertently limit its applicability.

• Jack (24:32): "There is a bill to slash the tax on public charging... making it more affordable for everyone."

Robert highlights the disparity in VAT rates between home and public charging, emphasizing the financial implications for EV owners.

• Robert (25:26): "At home, you pay 5% VAT on electricity, but at public chargers, it's 20%."

The hosts express concerns over potential confusion among consumers and the bureaucratic hurdles that may hinder the grant's effectiveness. Imogen illustrates the everyday challenges faced by those without home charging facilities, underscoring the need for accessible and straightforward incentives.

4. Charging Infrastructure and Accessibility

Building on the grant discussion, the conversation shifts to the broader topic of EV charging infrastructure. The hosts debate the current state and future prospects, acknowledging both advancements and persistent challenges.

• Robert (22:49): "There are 83,000 rapid charges in the country, with about a thousand being installed each week."
• Imogen (27:46): "If you've got a home charger, it's dreamy... or you make do with public chargers efficiently."

Jack advocates for tax reforms to make public charging more affordable, suggesting it as a pivotal factor in EV adoption rates.

• Jack (24:43): "Slashing tax on public charging is instrumental in enabling electric vehicles on a large scale."

The hosts also touch upon the socio-economic barriers to EV ownership, emphasizing that those without private driveways or access to home chargers face greater hurdles.

5. Insights into the Electric Vehicle Market

The episode offers insights into the evolving EV market, with a focus on secondhand electric vehicles and the shifts in consumer behavior.

• Jack (32:20): "There's a lot of talk about grants for used electric vehicles, which could potentially lower prices significantly."
• Robert (33:15): "Secondhand electric cars could become much more affordable, making EV ownership accessible to a broader audience."

Imogen shares a personal anecdote about her eco-conscious father hesitating to switch to an electric car due to the overwhelming information and lack of clear guidance.

• Imogen (32:03): "My dad is a proper eco warrior, but his car is the last thing he's gone to change... he just can't navigate the information overload."

This discussion highlights the need for simplified information and targeted assistance to facilitate smoother transitions to electric mobility.

6. Upcoming Events and Final Thoughts

As the episode draws to a close, the hosts look forward to upcoming projects and events, maintaining the podcast's signature blend of enthusiasm and anticipation.

• Jack (46:34): "See the contraptions, do battle in October on those dates. I have memorized 11th and 12th."
• Robert (47:08): "It's a must-do if you're in the UK... I'm really looking forward to that."

Imogen invites listeners to join their live show at Farnborough, promising exciting competitions and exclusive content for attendees.

• Imogen (47:29): "We're doing the actual competitions between the Contraptions live at our Farnborough live show. It will be really fun."

The hosts wrap up with a call to action, encouraging listeners to subscribe, comment, and share the podcast, ensuring the community continues to grow and engage.

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Notable Quotes:

• Imogen (03:16): "It was extraordinary... seeing how it gets made has not taken away from the magic of it at all."
• Robert (19:33): "It's a big message that the government is serious about this transition."
• Jack (24:32): "There is a bill to slash the tax on public charging... making it more affordable for everyone."
• Imogen (27:46): "If you've got a home charger, it's dreamy... or you make do with public chargers efficiently."

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This episode of the Everything Electric Podcast masterfully balances technical discussions with personal anecdotes, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the current EV landscape. Whether you're an EV enthusiast or someone contemplating the switch, Robert, Jack, and Imogen offer valuable insights and thoughtful analyses to guide your journey toward a more sustainable future.

Transcript

[Imogen]

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Everything Electric podcast, where today we've got a bit of a treat really, because Robert, Jack and myself are sitting down for a little chin wag, which actually doesn't happen that frequently. So we are delighted to probably share a bit of nonsense with you. We'll see where we go. But before we get to that, first of all, a very quick advert break.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Our three free YouTube channels on EVs and cleantech are funded by our fun packed test drivetastic events in Farnborough, London, the Southwest, the North, Melbourne and Sydney. And next up, we're in Canada for Everything Electric Vancouver and new for UK viewers. You can now buy a battery, EV and much more at EverythingElectric store.

[Imogen]

I mean the thing is, is that because of the beauty of editing, we actually didn't need to pause.

[Jack]

No, no, it's am.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I was waiting for the advert to finish.

[Jack]

We're all just politely waiting.

[Imogen]

We could. We have. I think we hear it in our minds in Farnborough, Vancouver, Vancouver, Sydney, Melbourne.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Sydney.

[Jack]

Yeah, keep all of that in George.

[Imogen]

But hello, how are you both?

[Robert Llewellyn]

I'm very well, I miss.

[Jack]

We've all been very well slightly. Yeah, we had a big old week last week, didn't we? I'm sure we'll talk about what we've been up to, but many big sleeps were had over the weekend. Ready to do it all again.

[Imogen]

Yes. Because what we're sort of referring to is that last week we filmed episode one of Zapheap Challenge. Our first pilot, Zap Peep. Sorry, Zapheap. Episode one of Zapheap. We started the day at I think 7am oh, that's when we're having breakfast anyway, on site at 7:30. And the 10 hours of the challenge probably began in earnest at about midday.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah.

[Imogen]

So it was, it was a late day.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah. Because I was. I was thrown out at about 10:30. People looked at, well, I'll put. Let the poor old man go to bed. So what time were you there till? You were there till. Late, late.

[Imogen]

I was there till midnight. So slightly before Jack and Dom said, he was like, you know, you have wrapped, you could go to the hotel. And I was like, there is no way I'm leaving. We are so close. I need to this thing turn on. And then Jack, you were the force to be there till the bitter end because you did sort of some reviews at the end.

[Jack]

Yeah, my main piece of presenting that was required of me came at around 12:30am we had this bright idea that without giving too much away, we thought it'd be fun if I did, like a mini car review of these contraptions that they had, like, doing on the YouTube channel, which I did. And it was great because the problem with that is you have to wait until the things are built, which they weren't until quite late at night. But it was extraordinary. And as someone who, you know, grew up watching that show religiously, it means a lot to me. It means to a lot of people who are there making it and seeing how it gets made has not taken away from the magic of it at all, which I think is probably very unusual of a show.

[Imogen]

Yeah, yeah, I so agree. And I. And I was kind of reflecting at the time, like. And it's so difficult to talk about this without giving any spoilers away. So for anyone listening, sorry, we're speaking in kind of vagaries. But to actually see something physical and mechanical get built, it was just the most extraordinary experience and actually bizarrely mindful because whilst we're on site, there is one mission, or rather there are two challenges. Two teams building something that is all that can be done, that's all that can be focused on. So you're so in it and so present. And I know that sounds really like, oh, so present, but it was just a fantastic day and so lovely to connect these, like, electrical things to a mechanical product. It was. It was awesome.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, no, it was great. It was wonderful, wasn't it? And many aspects of it I've sort of stayed with me. I mean, I think for me particularly it was having Kathy Rogers visit. So Kathy Rogers, who was the originator of the program, I can't remember. We did work out how long ago. It was a long time ago. And I sort of remembered back to the first time I met her and how bonkers the idea seemed. And this will never work. And this is going to be another one of those one off channel four things that doesn't last and, you know, everyone forgets about and definitely not that. And she was so, so thrilled to see we were doing it. I mean, she really was made up by it. So that was very.

[Jack]

It must have been surreal for you, Bobby, because there you were back in that same coat. We had the same directors and sound as you had 25 years ago. Your son Louis, who was sort of bouncing around the set as a toddlers there, working one of the cameras, working really hard.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, it kind of was, but it was also. It's so exhausting that I think I was. I really. I remember how Exhausted I was. But I was also 20 years younger, you know, so more than 20 years younger. So that it was. I did find it very tiring to kind of. Because you've got to be able to switch on. I mean, you, you, you would do it. You were so good at it. But, you know, that thing is, you know, you're sitting. Because a lot of it is. There's quite a lot of hanging around for us where we're not doing anything, where all the focus is on the teams and the machines as it should be. And then suddenly it go. Can you say something about this? Oh, you have to be kind of ready to jump in.

[Imogen]

So I've got a question for you because on that day, I don't think I've ever been hungrier in my whole entire life. Like by 10am, I'd had three croissants, I'd had like, you know, entire portion of fish and chips by like 4pm had like a panini at 9pm because it was a marathon. Did you always have to eat that that much?

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, I mean, we had, I mean we had like on site catering so like a proper catering truck where they cooked hot meals and everything like that. But, you know, they had to, you know, the crew was, it was a huge team. It was over 60 people were on the set. So actually there. So they had to cater for over 60 people. So that's quite a big thing. And yeah, we did eat a lot, I think. Yeah, I seem to, Yes. I can't quite remember now, but I know I do remember eating and someone saying, you really should wash your hands. And I looked at my hands. Absolutely filthy. And I even thought about it. But then everybody else was absolutely filthy. I mean, yeah, because you, you naturally absorb dirt and dust that, you know that, that is a relatively clean environment we were in, you know, for this, for this new series. And there's, there's less sort of engine oil and smoke and blatting engines and all that stuff.

[Jack]

Oh, sorry.

[Imogen]

Oh, oh, you go, you go.

[Jack]

Worth noting that while it was legitimately exhausting for us as presenters because it's a very long day and you've got to be ready at any moment to be on. We were just commentating on people working hard, those team, teams of three. Mind you, I think there were four back in the day, but there would.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Have been four originally. Yeah, they were.

[Jack]

You could barely tell them apart by the end of the day because they were just a pair of eyes. And then grease. A body covered in grease and oil with sort of Slightly singed bits on their T shirts. Yeah, yeah, those guys, I think they're probably still asleep, those two.

[Robert Llewellyn]

They must be. Yeah. But I tell you, the other thing which person we haven't mentioned is Colin, who was one. An absolute joy, totally, you know, enthusiastic about it. And there was a wonderful moment where I glanced in at the. Because I can't now. I've completely forgotten the names of the teams. The ones. The ones that were the first. The.

[Jack]

We don't give it away.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Oh, oh, no, we don't need to give it away. No, sorry, it's. You got on one of the teams, but there were two people welding and one person grinding. And I went, oh, my God, I've seen this so many times. This is in the dark, just noise and sparks and flames and everything, you know, just chaos. But. But clearly Colin really enjoyed it, which I was very, you know, it was a great thrill to see him and he's such an enthusiast and such a knowledgeable guy about that sort of bodging together things. It was very.

[Jack]

And he can really work a telehandler as well. Fair play.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yes.

[Imogen]

Never seen anything like it.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah.

[Imogen]

Goodness. Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And he was complaining. He said, oh, it's really hard to drive. And I went, doesn't you don't make it look like it's hard to drive. God.

[Imogen]

So, Jack, I don't know if you've had this experience since last week as well, but there was a picture that was put on Instagram and we were all tagged in it. And so was Colin first. He was also tagged in it. And we're all collaborators on the post as well. And it means that, you know, because he has such an extraordinary high number of followers, but I've had loads an influx of his followers now. Follow me. The trouble is, is that they all have Instagram handles of things like Kevin in the Garage or Stuart build stuff. I'm like, oh, man, you guys are going to be so disappointed when I blast you with content of my dog and being like, oh, look at this lovely sustainable bottle of wine. La la la. Apologies to any of those people out there.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I'm sure they'll. I'm sure they'll love it. It will broaden their worldview.

[Imogen]

But I suppose other than Zap Peep, we've all been rather busy. Jack, you immediately went from Zapheap straight to another shoot, which I'm not sure how much you'll even be allowed to share about that.

[Jack]

Yeah, I'm potentially about to be the world's worst podcast guest because the Thing that I went and filmed straight after Zapheap is even more secret than Zaph Peep. So I'm going to choose my words very carefully here and tease. I went somewhere in Europe to visit a certain legacy car maker and take a first look at their new electric vehicle. Can you tell what it is yet?

[Robert Llewellyn]

You've kept it mysterious, mate. Well done.

[Jack]

We're moving on. But this is a car brand that I would, I think it would be fair to say, has not been leading the pack in terms of their commitment to electrification and the technology within their electric vehicles. And this car changes that radically. This is a brand that for me, has been slightly lagging behind and is potentially now right at the cutting edge in terms of battery technology, in terms of software. It was a remarkable. I've never been quite so astonished on a launch and I've never had so much information chucked at me, which I've then had to very quickly kind of process put into my own words and then deliver to a camera, all while quite tired from being on the Zap.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yes. So did you actually do that on Friday, Jack? Was that.

[Jack]

I went on Thursday, filmed on the Friday. Yeah. I wish I could say more and I'd like to come back to the pod once that video goes out. Yeah, we should do in September, Imogen.

[Imogen]

I think it is. I think it is currently. And I'm actually going to look here because I have it in front of me and I can see the words and it's so tempting to say them out loud. So. 5th of September.

[Robert Llewellyn]

5Th of September. Yeah.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Imogen]

But if anyone's willing to guess.

[Jack]

I wish I could say more. I'm sure it's very annoying to listen to, but there's a big video coming early September and it's worth keeping an eye out for.

[Imogen]

But if anyone is willing to guess what we might be referring to, feel free to write in the comments.

[Robert Llewellyn]

There you go.

[Imogen]

Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Oh, yeah. We won't speculate. We cannot. What's that one? Oh, we cannot confirm or deny.

[Imogen]

What have you been up to?

[Robert Llewellyn]

Well, I have actually been writing the script for the next Everything Electric News, and I've been. Which just requires a lot of reading and research and checking because I'm now doing three sources of information about any topic, which is really annoying because about three of the topics I really wanted to do, there was no backup, there was no verification. It just sounded like someone's opinion. So I'm trying to avoid people's. People like me, loud mouths, opinions and actually get to some, you know, Relatively reliable, actual facts, but. So I've been very immersed in that and also helping my daughter move, which is. It's quite. It's more stressful than you.

[Imogen]

Than you might think.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Dad, can you carry this?

[Imogen]

That.

[Robert Llewellyn]

What the hell is that? Here's the thing I've learned about the younger generation. What the beep, beep, beep is a weighted blanket. Oh. I had to carry one upstairs. I almost broke my back carrying the damn thing. It's like carrying an elephant. Huge.

[Imogen]

I did not know where the end of that sentence was going to go. Weighted blanket was not what I guessed.

[Robert Llewellyn]

All right. I've become obsessed with weighted blankets. I know they're very good and very reassuring or something, but I don't know. Yeah, they're heavy.

[Jack]

It's supposed to be very calming. It kind of presses down on you in a. In a reassuring way. I feel like I would feel trapped.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, I've got it. I haven't had a go with it. I've got to have a go with it.

[Imogen]

I suppose it's the adult version of, you know, being tucked in when you're. When you're a child.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yes, yes, that's true. And when. When my lovely daughter was a tiny child, she loved. She liked. She always made me tuck her in. My son didn't want any tucking or anything anywhere near it. And she liked to be tucked in. I shouldn't be talking about it now. She'd be very upset.

[Imogen]

For a few.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Months, a few weeks, while they're between houses. Yes. So it's all. And there's a lot of. Yeah, there's a lot of logistics. It's wonderful. And I really tried to get them to use an electric van and that didn't happen. They basically got two. There's two men about to arrive with another van load of stuff. So that's all. So that's. Yeah. Sorry, that's so off topic.

[Jack]

A little insight into the rock and roll champagne lifestyle of Robert Llewellyn.

[Robert Llewellyn]

So not imagine. I've also been clearing up all the. I've been clearing up all the clippings that my wife has done in the garden. So she says she's done the job. I just. This is something that has been weighing on me like a weighted blanket. So doing the job that I see clearing out a bit of the corner of the garden involves getting all the stuff you've clipped off or dug up or whatever, and putting it in the recycling vegetable bin thing. We've got. No, you leave it on the floor and then your husband goes and has to pick it all up.

[Imogen]

Partnership there, you know.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But she says, I've done all the work. And I go, well, you haven't done all the work. Done some of it anyway. That's enough. That's enough ranting about that.

[Jack]

Imogen, what's been keeping you busy?

[Imogen]

Ooh, what has been keeping me busy? Well, there's been quite a lot of exciting things recently, I suppose. Last week we were at Goodwood Festival of Speed, which was very hot. Very, very, very hot. And sort of always interesting to see what electric stuff people are bringing up. We've got an episode going out tomorrow that you will. It will be in the past, it will be tomorrow for us, but last week, for anyone listening to this that you shot. And then a lot of my time has been spent either doing podcasts or scripting stuff for Canada because we're starting to shift our content strategy towards North America stuff. So next week I'll be going out to Canada having a look at some stuff to do with hydroelectric dams, some lithium processing technology, which is really, really interesting. More on that once I've got a little bit more into the weeds on the detail. Some electric boats. Also this huge industrial farm which is totally powered by renewable energy. So very much been in the clean energy camp, more so than the electric vehicle camp of, I would say. But a couple of highlights. I sat down with Ed Miliband recently and then followed that up with Chris Stark as well, who's head of clean Power Mission 2030. So, yeah, it's been. It's been. It's been busy, but it's always busy here at every electric show.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Never stop. Well, also, I should mention, lovely Michael Herbert. So we just. That's just gone out today, our time, like we're in a different continent. But, you know, it will be last week's podcast, but if you haven't heard, it is really worth. Because he just is such a absolute mind of information about how the transport system in London has really been changed very dramatically in the last 10 years with, you know, the electrification of a lot of the transport. So the buses and the taxis and many of the delivery vans and now the cars. And it is cleaner. I mean, it's not perfect by any means, but my goodness, it doesn't smell as. Basically as toxic as it used to. 20 years ago was really bad. You know, you would, you know, if you. And I think you only noticed it if you didn't live in London. You know, many times I caught the train, I get out the train at Paddington, walk up onto Prade street and go, oh my God. It's really, really. You really notice it when you don't live there. When I lived there for 14 years, I didn't, I don't remember noticing at all except when I blew my nose. I won't go into any detail, but you did know that if you cycled across London then blew your nose. Yo.

[Imogen]

I was going to say, I think the blowing the nose thing, that's something that even in, in Jack and I, I think in our recent history we can remember sort of seven years ago, you blew your nose after being in London and it was, it was not a pretty sight and now it's a little bit more pretty.

[Jack]

But I, I would just like to go on record and say I have never blown my nose, looked into the tissue and been like, well, I must have been in London today. Do you guys really. I'm not really analyzing my bogeys all that much at all. Guys, I'll be completely honest with you.

[Imogen]

Either you have much better personal hygiene than myself and Robert or you, you are London born and bred, so perhaps.

[Jack]

Yeah, no, just two streams of lava, but I assume that's normal because that's what it's always been for me.

[Imogen]

Michael is such an interesting character for two reasons. Yeah, he's absolutely incredible. He has been so instrumental in this clean transport journey across London, a career spanning sort of 20 years. He became like the most senior civil servant that you could possibly be when it comes to the government and clean energy and transport. And I remember the first time I met him, which was about five years ago, he was giving me a bit of a whistle stop tour of his, of his career and some of the things he'd done at Transport for London, some of the stuff he'd done for the Department of Transport, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, yeah, all right, there's no way that this guy has done it because he's like 28 years old and he's just like a little bit of a slightly arrogant graduate, I'm going to say.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yes.

[Imogen]

And then I was like, hang on a second. You just physically couldn't have squeezed all of this into your four year career that you've had so far? Turns out he's like much older than 28, but he just looks fantastic. So clearly there is something energizing.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, yeah. Very, very unfair. It's, I would say it's cruel how much, how much hair he's got and how dark it is when you compare it with his age. That's just not Fair that's left the rest of the, the white male race just reeling in depression and self loathing. Particularly me.

[Imogen]

Well and the other thing is that he was very instrumental in setting up the original Office for Zero Emission Vehicles and the grants that existed, what I mean, I guess about seven to ten years ago now. Which means that it's particularly interesting having this conversation now because as of last week there's been the announcement of the new electric vehicle grant of £3,750 for cars that fit the criteria that are under £37,000. And we've all kind of been observing the commentary around that news. What are your thoughts?

[Robert Llewellyn]

Well, I'll do very briefly. I think it's not bad. It makes me, I mean there is a side of it that always makes me slightly worried and did before in the sense that, you know, it's such an easy target for people who are opposed to any change in transport policy in that, oh, they're so rubbish, you have to give people money to buy them. The government has to, you know, and that and that. So, you know, in a sense I want the, you know, all, any technology you buy to be worth it because it's better and it's, you know, it's, it's cheaper to live with and run and you know, I want it to stand up on its own two feet. So that's, and it has been interesting that since the original grant has disappeared, which is, I don't know, well, not that long ago, three or four years ago, something like that, when the old grant stopped, the, the sales of electric vehicles have just continued to rise. So it didn't, didn't. If they just immediately dropped off a cliff and no one was buying electric cars, then we've got a massive problem. But I think it does send a message though that the government, the, the government are serious about this transition. I think what the, one of the aspects that I thought it was a shame that in the timing. So it's nothing to do with the grant but they've actually allocated 63 million pounds funding for on street and off street charging. So for to, to support, you know, the charging network which is now all the complaints I hear from people, they're not about the cost of the cars, they're not about the reliability of the cars or the batteries. It's always, everyone talks about the charging, oh, I'd love to use an electric car but there's no charging infrastructure and you know, you bite your knuckle again. Well there are, you know, 83, 000 rapid charges in the country, and there's about a thousand being put in every week. And they are. You know, there is a charging infrastructure, but if you don't use it, you don't rely on it, you don't see it. You know, it's very easy to ignore it, but. So, I mean, I'm. I guess I'm a bit torn, but not newly torn. I was already torn with the old grant as well, but I do think It's. I'm like 60 in favor of it and think it's really good. So my reservations are in the minority.

[Imogen]

And the charging thing is really interesting because I was listening to Jeremy vine on Radio 2 when the announcement was made, and I really, really cannot abide that show most of the time because I just find it incredible that they'll be like salt gritters up and down the country, are causing outrage, and it'll be this sort of. They'll sensationalize any topic, basically. And I think they were looking to really sensationalize this particular topic. And lots of people were ringing and saying, I love my ev. I will never go back. It's great, but the charging infrastructure is a challenge. And then there are a couple of people who were slightly more negative towards electric vehicles or electric vehicle transportation, and they were like, my electric vehicle is great, but I had these two terrible experiences of the charging network, and I will never buy an electric vehicle again. So it's exactly as you described. So interesting that the gripes on both sides of the spectrum for EVs and against EVs came down to this perception of the charging infrastructure, which is something. Until you live with an ev, you can't. You can't really.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, yeah.

[Imogen]

And especially because everyone's. The way that people travel and where they go is so different. So your experience of the charging infrastructure is so unique to you, your household, your job, the way you live your life. So it's difficult to. Or it's just not reflective, talking about it in these, like, huge, sweeping terms.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Well, I mean, also, the three of us are kind of interesting example. You know, I. I do have room, you know, off the street to park a car and plug it in. You know, I have all those advantages. And both of you drive electric cars and you don't. You have to use the public charging. So I. What I would imagine is my fuel costs are. You know, it's not. It's the absolute opposite of virtue signaling. I drive around, shame signaling. I'm going, oh, it's really. I feel really bad. I've just driven 200 miles. The fuel cost was zero because it was all from my solar panels, you know, so it's so unfair. And that is a really new twist. It has something to do with income and with wealth because, you know, you've got to have a house with a garage and, or a house with a driveway to do that, and then you've got to have solar panels and, you know, to take full advantage of that. But yeah, I mean, you, I mean, how on earth do you manage it's impossible to have an electric car and not have a driveway.

[Jack]

Well, it's not impossible. I'm very lucky that I, you know, the charger that matters the most is the one at home. And at home might mean on your driveway, if you're lucky, or it might mean the charger nearest to your home. In my case, fortunately on my street that I plug my car into overnight and grab it in the morning and unplug it. So I kind of get the experience of having my own driveway charger. The problem is it's way more expensive because I pay tax on my charging. And you, Robert, don't. And as we all know, there is.

[Imogen]

Actually a bill passed through.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Less tax. Yes, less tax.

[Jack]

This is currently being discussed in Parliament, isn't there? There is a bill to slash the tax on public charging, which I would argue is as instrumental, if not more instrumental.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yes.

[Jack]

In enabling electric vehicles in a big way. Because then there is no if, buts or maybes around it being much charger to run an electric car, because the charging would just be so much more affordable for everyone if they slash that tax on public charging in regards to.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Just to make it clear for. Just make it clear for people overseas who may not know when you're. Any household pays. It's vat. It's called value added tax, which is on many products and goods that you buy in this country. But at home, when you buy electricity, you pay 5% VAT on top of your bill. And when you plug into a public charger, you're paying 20%. So it's a big difference. It makes a big difference. If it was 5% for public charges, it would be really a lot cheaper.

[Imogen]

But the challenge that comes with all of that is that I think I'm right in saying, and if I'm incorrect, then someone in the comments please do feel free to correct me. But in this discussion that's going through Parliament at the moment about reforming the tax structure, it's not necessarily bring public charging down to 5% to match home charging. There's Speculation that actually it's just made the same. So actually there could be a scenario where it's 20% VAT on home electric charging.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Wow.

[Imogen]

Which then there's this. All this complicated stuff around. Well, if you've been generating your own power on your own solar panels, do you really mean to suggest that you're being paid charged tax on stuff that you.

[Robert Llewellyn]

What they're suggesting is that. That you. That only the electricity that goes into your car, you have to pay 20%. The electricity that runs your lights is still 5%. How the technological and bureaucratic complexity of separating those two is.

[Imogen]

It's nonsense. It's like total faff.

[Robert Llewellyn]

If that was the case here at my house, the first thing I'd do is run my extension cable out of the kitchen where I plug the kettle.

[Jack]

In, charge a large external power bank and then run the car off that. Yeah, brilliant.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I mean, anyway, yeah, it's so silly.

[Imogen]

And if ever you ask a politician about the 20% VAT thing versus the 5% VAT thing, they're like, oh, you'll have to ask the tax office, because we don't know. And I'm like, oh, God. And it just kind of points to the fact that there's lots of. I really believe that there are so many people who have opinions about this or are forming policy about these sorts of things who haven't actually lived with the technology and experienced it. Because when it goes right, when you have your sort of setup of either, you know, if you have home charging, dreamy, because it's your paying basically nothing with those really lovely tariffs that you can get through OVO and octopus and the likes of that. Or you do figure out how it works for you without a home charger and you do experience, like, a better overall experience and it is slightly more comparable with the cost of petrol and diesel if you don't find destination charging. But it is, generally speaking, much more seamless. And like, for me, I don't have a home charger, which is kind of annoying. I wish we did, but either we live 10 minutes from a rapid charger or. Or I go to the gym where there is free charging and that is a good incentive to go to the gym.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I'll just do another hour on the treadmill.

[Jack]

And by the way, why have more businesses not realized that it's a fantastic way to get people through the door and staying for longer?

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah.

[Imogen]

Literally. Because today at the gym, a. I wouldn't have gone to the gym if I didn't need to charge. And the reason I need to charge is because I'm taking my nephew to Legoland on Wednesday. Need to get there. Very important auntie duties. But I know that it's an 11 kilowatt charger, which is pretty good. But so I'm gonna have to gym for a bit and then I'm probably gonna have to be there for a little bit more time. I will buy a coffee or whatever. So, you know, there's ways to reconsider that dwell time and the opportunity. I think that that presents definitely back.

[Jack]

To the grant very quickly. I would, I would agree with Bobby in that it's most definitely better than having no incentives. Having incentives is better than no incentives. I do understand, Robert, your point about the sort of perception issues around, oh, we have to make this cheaper, but I wouldn't worry too much about that because as we've seen from countries like Norway, where they're very good at electric cars and everyone drives them, the way you get people into them is almost immaterial. It's just about getting people into them. All the surveys that we've conducted prove that once people go electric, they do not go back. It's just about getting them into those electric cars initially. So I think anything we can do to incentivize that is beneficial. My issue with it is that it's confusing and convoluted. There are many, many caveats. And it's not as simple as all cars under this price get this much of a discount. It's about how sustainably they were built, how sustainably the battery was made. And that sounds worthy, but there's a lot of problems with that. Number one being almost all batteries are made in China. And I think that disqualifies cars from a certain amount of the discount. So we now have this situation where no one knows how discounted cars are going to be. I've been Googling this morning looking for some article from one of the big automotive outlets saying, here are the cars that qualify and here's how much. But no one knows. A bigger, more valid issue we have right now in terms of getting people to go electric. A more valid issue than price, more valid issue than charging infrastructure, is confusion. Anxiety about it being a bit daunting and confusing remains. A valid anxiety about going electric because people are talking about kilowatt hours and kilowatts. What the hell are those? They're different things. And we've just added more complexity with this grant that is massively varied in terms of which car and which brand. So, yeah, I'm a bit Frustrated by that. I hope that that will become clearer over the coming weeks because there is a lot of uproar about how confusing it is. My hope is that the government will now clarify and before long we will have just a shopping list. Here are the cars that qualify for the grant, here's how much you get off them, because that's what we need for this to be useful.

[Imogen]

Right, Yeah, I think that's such a valid point. And actually Ginny buckley, who runs electrifying.com said something along the lines of like, if you have this grant that doesn't just sort of blanket apply to all vehicles under £37,000, you're actually reducing the competition and the perceived choice, which then of course has its own problems as well. So that's a challenge and also the confusion. And this has been really interesting for me on a personal level because my dad is a proper eco warrior. You know, his house is pretty much off grid. He, you know, has like 30 second showers in the spirit of saving water, that kind of thing. But his car is the last thing that he's gone to change and he is like a super smart human being and yet he's like, honestly Imogen, can you just tell me which one I need to get a bike on the back. That is pretty much my only criteria. And I think that's an insight of someone who's not in the weeds on this, like we all are. It's like, oh, for God's sake. There's just like all of this information to navigate and I can't really be bothered. So I think, yeah, the confusion is, it's really interesting and I think many people out there would argue, should we just be putting that effort towards what's happening in the second hand market where of course, like I think seven out of eight car purchases are made or six out of seven, I forget the exact number, especially here in the uk and the charging question, which remains a.

[Jack]

Challenge perceived or otherwise being floated, that actually investment would be better spent in some sort of grants around used electric vehicles. I can't quite get my head around how that would work. Do you think that would be a better model given that that's what people are mostly buying?

[Robert Llewellyn]

I mean, I think it probably would. I mean that would. Because that would. That you could see then substantially lowered. You know, like you could even get to sub £10,000 for a secondhand vehicle. That's perfectly good and it's in good condition, you know, I mean, it's that I think it generates any of those sort of government Ideas just generate bureaucracy that is by definition confusing. And that's the problem with it, I suppose. But, I mean, in a sense, I would be much more enthusiastic about us about secondhand ones because new cars are generally bought by, you know, big leasing companies. And that's, that's. I mean, you know, I lease my car because I, I never, never went in a new car until I was, I was in my mid-50s. So, you know, who could buy a new car? I mean, I didn't know anyone who could buy a new car. I never met anyone who would, like, go into a showroom and buy a new car. It was just unheard of. Everyone had second, third, fourth and cars. You know, that was just normal.

[Jack]

I suppose what the legacy car makers would jump to say in response to that is like, we are hurting enough right now.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yes.

[Jack]

Already decentivizing buying new cars. And I think this is as much about helping as anything. Even ones who are trying in earnest, like, you know, the Vauxhall managing director for the UK has posted this thing on LinkedIn, kind of going, look, we've done everything. We've electrified every model in our lineup. We have electric versions of cars that are cheaper than the petrol version of the same car. And we're way off targets. We're way off targets for net zero. And we're facing a one and a half billion pound fine this year. We need a leg up. So maybe we're thinking about it wrong. Maybe this is as much about helping the OEM get through this tricky, sticky transition as it is about getting more people into electric cars quickly.

[Imogen]

Yeah. And I think we have to remember, like Jack, the reason you and I drive electric cars is because we're fortunate enough to have a salary sacrifice scheme at work. That is what enables us to do it. If we did not have that, we would be waiting for, like, desperately waiting for the price to come down and down and down and down, such that, you know, probably a secondhand EV would be feasible or that the grants are available on slightly cheaper models. The dog is normally really still, but she has started, like, I was wondering what that means. She's to get her nails clipped tomorrow so she'll be less noisy next time. But I think the thing we have to remember in all of this, so we have a salary sacrifice that is a level of privilege that we experience. There are lots of people out there, Rob, I'm going to put you in this camp who have off road, you have a driveway, you can charge at home. Going electric just makes so much sense because it's the more affordable option long term. But there are many people for whom A no salary sacrifice, B no driveway and we do need to lower the barrier such that electric vehicles are more accessible and that whatever mechanism we choose to get there is a good thing.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, I mean I, I firmly believe we will get there because it's just, it's such a big global movement. You know, there's going to be countries where it's slower and there's going to be places where it's not, you know, it's harder to do the charging. All those things are all real concerns and real challenges. But I think it will happen. And I think one of the things that I think is very hopeful one is one of the stories I covered in the news which is, you know, a, A random Volkswagen ID3 had its battery tested after 107000 miles and it had dropped 8 miles. It lost 8 miles of range in that time. Well the range is 250 miles so you know, it's not really made a big difference. Which means you can buy a car that, you know, I think I'll step back because this is a bit I cut from the news but I went on a huge rant about how much it cost me to have old cars that I bought for £400. You know, as a third or fourth hand rusting golf, I would spend thousands of pounds in the next three years keeping that car going because it was constantly breaking down, it would blow gaskets, the exhaust manifold would come off, the carburetor would get stuck. You know, the fuel lines would keep be blocked, the brakes wouldn't work. You know, everything went wrong with them because they're old cars. Well, it's quite possible that in say 20 years time, you know, you buy an old second hand electric car, you know, it might get punctures, it might need the steering realigning, it might need some work on the brakes or suspension, but it's just kind of not going to cost as much to keep that going. So the long term I think is hopeful, the short term is painful. But the other quick thing I want to say is the, you know, the government figures are, I think it's actually slightly under 60% of UK households have somewhere off the street to park a car. Probably 5% of those people of those households currently have an electric car, if that, probably even less, I. E. There's a massive watch of the human race in this country that could take huge advantage from having electric cars and, and then they would then therefore produce second hand and Third hand ones and they'd hand them to their kids or whatever the system is. And so, you know, I think there should be focus on the people who, like yourselves, who can't, you know, can't charge at home. But I think there should be some pressure, could be moral on the, on the, on the millions of people in this country who will still have a diesel SUV parked in front of their house off the street, which they then have to get in, start it up, drive down the road to fill it up with toxic imported fossil fuel. Sorry, I won't rant anymore. Yeah.

[Jack]

If you have your own driveway and you do not have a lifestyle that requires that you drive hundreds of miles in all different directions every week, what are you doing? What are you doing? Not getting an electric car at this point. That's bizarre to me.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah.

[Imogen]

Especially what is the tariff? Like 7p per kilowatt hour or something like that? It's like it's so at night. Yeah, yeah. And you know, if we take like I'm gonna do some live maths here, not in my head. I am using a calculator. But let's say like the average battery size is about 60 kilowatt hours.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah.

[Imogen]

So. And you never really go. Nope to 100%.

[Robert Llewellyn]

So yes, you can say 40, 45 kilowatt hours is your top up overnight.

[Imogen]

Yeah, I mean we're talking like £3 to £4 20 for like 270 miles of range. I mean it's just, it's, it's hard to argue with. I had an interesting point. It probably wasn't interesting at all, so I won't mention it. But I am aware that we are coming towards 40 minutes of rabbiting on.

[Robert Llewellyn]

There's so much more rabbiting to do.

[Imogen]

So much more rabbiting. And I'm so grateful that we have all of Zapheap episode 2 pilot to catch up in more detail as well, because we definitely get the easiest ride compared to the teams, the all of the camera crew. We get a lovely time. Eat snacks.

[Robert Llewellyn]

No, it's wonderful. Yeah, I think, yeah, it's very exciting as well. We don't need to go into details about the teams this week, but just to very briefly explain, the teams we had last week are very experienced in terms of putting electric motors in and batteries in things. Let's leave it there. Whereas the teams that are coming this week, they might know what a battery and an electric motor is. They might know a great deal about them on a very academic level, but they haven't actually possibly done quite what they've got facing them.

[Imogen]

And also the teams from last week, they're all colleagues to each other. The teams this year, hodgepodge, collection of people.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yes.

[Imogen]

One of them is actually. I know quite well he. We're married. He's been. He's been recruited. So I'm quite looking forward to. Yeah, yeah.

[Jack]

I'm planning on throwing a subplot into this episode across the day. I'm going to do little bits to camera. One of these engineers is married to one of us presenters. It's Robert and that big Yorkshire bloke with greasy thumbs. They've been in love for years.

[Imogen]

Do you know, actually there are two people married to each other who are going to be on site on set. Yeah. So the plot thickens. Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

All right, don't tell us who, we'll see if we can work it out.

[Imogen]

But aside from Zapi, what are you looking forward to in the next couple of weeks? What have you got on? Oh, I know.

[Jack]

Oh, I know. Yeah. I think you're about to say the same thing. Go on.

[Imogen]

You guys have an extremely exciting shoot next week.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Oh, yes, we do. I still have. I still haven't heard Jack, but it's. I will remind them. So we're trying. There's a particular vehicle we're trying to get slightly earlier than it was offered to us so that we've got the day, the only day we can film it. We can do the. What we're planning to do. No, I'm very excited about that.

[Jack]

This is the world's worst podcast because we're just talking about lots of things that we're not allowed to talk about. But we'll again tease it and we'll say this, Robert has a very special, extremely high end new electric car and we're going to put it up against an old car that's been turned electric and ask the question if you're. If you're well off, very wealthy, special car for six figures that's electric. Do you go shiny and new or do you electrify something classic and old? And it's going to be more.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I'm looking forward to that. The only little addendum I want to put to that is it's not my car. I haven't bought the most expensive. You know, it is, it is a. It's a press loan.

[Imogen]

And, you know, this is it because we're so aware that when things creep over a certain price point, there's a very small minority of our audience who will ever legitimately consider those vehicles. Although for any of the PRs listening to this, please continue to give us those cars anyway. And so we know that we need to do something a little bit more exciting and fun with those episodes. So I think it's going to be quite silly.

[Robert Llewellyn]

It'll be fun, actually. The other thing, quickly, while I remember, and this is in a sense relating to expensive electric vehicles, I have now seen two JLR heavily camouflaged vehicles, definitely both electric. The one was the Jaguar. So it was so obvious it was the Jaguar because the shape of that, even though they did stuff over the world, it was basically a bonnet. Came around the Corner and about 10 minutes later it was followed by a windscreen and it was towing a huge trailer, a heavily laden trailer up a hill, I would say at or slightly above the speed limit. It was really pelting up the hill.

[Jack]

It's hasty scoop because the Jaguar have a facility very near where you live in the Cotswolds.

[Robert Llewellyn]

So I'm not far from there.

[Jack]

That is interesting to note that whatever pre production car they are working on sufficiently resembles that bonkers concept that you can recognize.

[Robert Llewellyn]

It is hard to say. Yeah, it was coming the other way. It was very wide, very long and very low. That's all I can say because it was very heavily covered. It had some weird lumps on the. On the roof that won't be on it. But then the other one I saw on Friday, there's no question it was a Range Rover.

[Imogen]

Wow.

[Robert Llewellyn]

It was a. It was. And I was in static traffic and it went the other way. I was in a queue and it went fast. So it may have been a new hybrid version, I don't know. But it looked like the electric one and it was again covered in the weird camouflage Y stuff. So I've just heard that they've delayed the release of it till next year. The electric Range Rover.

[Imogen]

I was going to say hot off the press, but actually it's not that hot. It's more like lukewarm off the press. Yeah. They're delaying it by all accounts. And yeah, I mean, that's a sadness. And it's also not totally surprising, but interestingly, because we had Rawdon Glover from Jaguar on the podcast the other day.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yes.

[Imogen]

And I was like, how closely will the real car resemble the Type 00 concept that we've all seen? He was like.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Because it was at Goodwood, wasn't it?

[Imogen]

Yeah, yeah. And he was like, it should be really, really similar with the exception that it's four doors rather than two doors. And I was like, really? It's going to be that long here in the uk. And I was like, surely it won't be available on the, you know, exact company car scheme. He's like, I think it will be.

[Jack]

So I think it's made for it.

[Imogen]

Yeah, yeah. But I mean, that thing is the.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Bonnet is comically long, isn't it? I mean, it's like Cruella de Vil. It's that sort of. Yeah.

[Imogen]

And also just like nothing like there's not really going to be that much functional stuff in there. It is an aesthetic choice rather than an engineering one.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But I mean, you could put a 250 kilowatt hour battery, you know, in physical size, it would easily, you know, from what I can judge of the size of, of the blood, the damn thing.

[Jack]

But I mean, that would be sort of quote unquote front engined.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, just a thought.

[Imogen]

Yeah, but yeah, I mean, I mean either that or it's got the most monumental frunk in the whole entire world and you could have moved your daughter back to your house in it. So done.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yes. I look forward to taking the weighted blanket back to Bristol. That might have been what they were testing. I reckon they were. That Jaguar were testing towing a trailer with a weighted blanket in it.

[Imogen]

Oh, man.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But no, what was impressive with that was I was behind a truck going down a hill, you know, and that's a hill. I've seen many Jaguars and Land Rovers with camouflage over the last 30 years. That's one of their, obviously their favorite routes. But it came the other way because I was going quite so it came the other way at speed and I could see it coming around this corner. It's going, oh my God, that's that thing. I think, think it's got a trailer and it went past me. So it's got some, it's got some, you know, it's got some oomph. Whatever else it's got.

[Imogen]

Well, I think, you know, for today we, we've shared some pearls of sort of wisdom and some pearls of less wisdom, but done some chatting, which is good, but that probably is all that we have time for. So as we wrap up, I guess anyone who's listening, if you could like comment, subscribe. All of the stuff, share with a friend. It's always appreciated. It's always really handy. Any other final thoughts, come to Farnborough.

[Jack]

See the contraptions, do battle in October on those dates. I Definitely have memorized 11th and 12th.

[Robert Llewellyn]

11Th and 12th of October, yes, definitely a. That is a must do if you're in the uk. Anywhere south of Aberdeen, it's worth the trip.

[Jack]

Aberdeen. Stay away. You stay up there.

[Robert Llewellyn]

You're not welcome. You can come.

[Jack]

You know how Bobby feels. Northern Scottish.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Everyone would be very welcome. It is a long way from Aberdeen, that is fair to say, but it will be. I'm really looking forward to that.

[Imogen]

Yeah. Because we'll be doing the. The actual competitions between the Contraptions live at our Farnborough live show. And that is. I mean, that is such a. A scoop for anyone who, who is planning on attending. It'll be really fun. So. Yeah, that's it. Do you want to. Do you want to do the thing the. You know, if you have. If you have been.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Oh, I sure. Should I do that? Okay, yes, I can try and do that. You've done the subscribe thing. I always want to say, tell your pals and your friends and your uncle who's annoying and anyone else that you love about the. About the Everything Electric podcast.

[Imogen]

Yeah, there we go.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And that's it. If you have been. As always, thank you for watching.

[Imogen]

Bye. Bye. Bye.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Now visit Electric Vehicles Expert, where you can follow Everything Electric and keep current with Clean Technica, the Driven Electrek and many more.