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- [00:00]
Chris Doe
All right, everybody. You've seen people on our channel come and go, in and out of the Futurist life, and you might be wondering, what happened to them. Where were the bodies buried? Well, they're not buried. They're still alive and well. And I just want everybody to know that they go on to live an amazing, joyful, illustrious life. And I'm so thrilled to be talking to one of my former creative directors, head of Art Content, Matthew and Cena. Welcome back.
- [00:44]
Matthew Encina
Hey, it's nice to be back finally.
- [00:45]
Chris Doe
Yeah, finally. And I don't know why, but I just imagine because we talk when we meet up, that we've had this conversation, but we have not.
- [00:53]
Matthew Encina
No.
- [00:53]
Chris Doe
You've never been on the podcast, have you?
- [00:55]
Matthew Encina
I think as just maybe a side guest or to add additional commentary to something, but I don't think I was ever a guest.
- [01:03]
Chris Doe
Okay, so this episode is purely focused on you. There is no side guest. You are the main attraction here. And if people recognize the voice, it's probably for a couple of different reasons. But if you're an OG Future fan and a Blind fan, then you'll know exactly who I'm talking to. But for those people who don't, can you introduce yourself and tell us a little of your backstory, Matthew?
- [01:23]
Matthew Encina
Yeah. So my name is Matthew Encina. Born and raised in Los Angeles, have been a creative professional for over 20 years, kind of exploring all kinds of stuff in a fun way. Chris was my teacher back in 2006 at Art center, where I studied graphic design. And then I went to go intern for him. I went to go freelance for him. And eventually he locked me down as a creative director at Blind, where I was a creative director for about a decade, working on fun, amazing commercial projects for brands like Xbox and bands like Coldplay. And then I ventured off. I got pulled into the future a few years later, back in 2016, and then, you know, rode that journey for a while and got my training wheels. Learning about content, learning about teaching, unpacking the things that I had inside, realizing that there was a lot of value inside of me that I could share with others. So thank you for that. And, you know, did that for a couple of years. And for the past three years, I've just been. I've kind of set my sail. I left the future. Just let the winds of curiosity kind of guide me to where I am now. And these days, I work on content still on my own YouTube channel, but I've also ventured into industrial product design. So I got into producing products in spaces that I'm very passionate about, like, desk accessories and keyboards and things of that nature.
- [02:49]
Chris Doe
Yeah, we'll get into that. So before we go to the future, we're going to go to the past. Matthew and I have a long history together of working together and being inspired by one another. And one of the beautiful things that you get to do as a boss is be around really great people, people who have beautiful intentions and have a passion for doing the very best work, and we can ride that wave together. So Matthew comes to me one day. I guess this is now part of the future. And he goes, chris, I have to talk to you. And anybody ever has that meeting with me, like, I need to talk to you. I already know what's coming, and I can tell the hesitation and all the kinds of things. I can only imagine whatever dialogue's been going on in your mind before and after, but I try to recognize the moment and say, hey, whatever you're going to say, it's going to be okay. And there can be no such thing as bad news, because I feel like, as a boss and as a friend, we've both grown so much together, and I'm so appreciative of the things you've already done at this point. Every day forward, it's just like icing on a very thickly iced cake. So it didn't really matter, right? And then you said, hey, tell me what you said, and then I'll quickly respond to what I said to you right afterwards. Do you remember? Roughly?
- [03:55]
Matthew Encina
Roughly. It was something along the lines of appreciate everything we've done. I've enjoyed everything to this point. I feel like I'm in my creative prime and things are growing behind the scenes, and I feel like I owe it to myself to see what happens if I invest all of that energy on my own journey.
- [04:13]
Chris Doe
And I don't know if I said, literally, this is how I want to remember. So if it's not, don't crack me. I said something to you like, I'm so happy for you. I've been wondering when you're going to have this conversation with me, and I wish you nothing but the best. My biggest question was, why so long? Like, why did it take you so long? Because one of the things that I feel like is if I do my job, and in some ways, and I'm not trying to say this in a pejorative way, part of running a company is like being a parent, and I want the best for the people that come in and out of our company. Sometimes the best means they need to be somewhere else. And that oftentimes means I have to ask them to leave and they wind up doing great things. Other times, the teams that I need to explore my own thing or explore this other opportunity, I never begrudge them, especially when they've given so much already. So I just knew that there was a lot of emotion and energy around this and I just said, hey, man, I'm just really happy for you. And people always wonder, like, what happened to Matthew? You ever. I just had a sandwich or taco with him yesterday. You guys relax. We just want to see a car show or something. You know, there's no animus as far as I know.
- [05:16]
Matthew Encina
Right.
- [05:17]
Chris Doe
But I can't say that's always the case because sometimes people leave or are asked to leave and I don't ever talk to them again. And it makes me wonder a lot about was there more that was in the relationship than I thought or was there less because I thought we work together and all things come to an end. But unless I betrayed you or was disloyal or did something that you thought was wrong and unethical, why shouldn't we have a relationship? But oftentimes that's not the case at all. So I just want to just double dip. On the whole, I'm very appreciative of the relationship we've had that's going on over two decades from us just meeting each other as at our center student, instructor, and then continuing on, working together and growing together, doing content and just evolving. And again, I'm just super happy for you now. When you left, you started your own YouTube channel. You basically took all the things that you learned about what it is that you wanted to say in the world and you did it without compromise in your own way. And you started making content and you had phenomenal success out of the gate. Before we get into the all the new stuff you're doing, take me through like what you're doing, what the expectation was, and how the Internet responded to that type of content.
- [06:29]
Matthew Encina
Yeah. So I started my YouTube channel in early 2019 and at that point I'd already been working at the Future for three years. So I got my training wheels there. I got to kind of experiment and learn all about YouTube because I didn't really have much experience in it prior to that. Obviously before that spent all that time in commercial directing 30 second TV commercial. So there's a lot of stuff that helped me when I started. When I started my YouTube channel, I was just doing it purely out of joy. I Was like, okay, I do this for work in my 9 to 5. What would I want to do on my 5 to 9 on the weekends? And at the time, I was remodeling one of our bedrooms at the at home to be a home office for me. And I did a lot of research and found some interesting content around that idea of kind of sharing your remodel, your. Your desk setup. But there wasn't any that kind of fit in the style or voice that I like. So I was like, you know what? Maybe I should do this, because I'm already going to do all this stuff. I'm kind of passionate and very oddly interested in this, so I'm going to document this whole process. So I kind of rebuilt my home office, documented the whole thing, and created a YouTube video around that. And when it came out, it did pretty good out of the gate. And then a week later, I think it was like 100,000 views. And I was perplexed. I did not expect that at all because I felt it was so much of a personal thing where it's like, okay, this is my space. This is my little fun DIY project. And it kind of feels like, you know, when people make vacation videos or fun videos for their family, it kind of felt like that a little bit. So I had zero expectation other than I just want to show off this fun project that I'm doing on the weekends. And then probably three months later, it might have reached a million views already. And I was so surprised, especially because all of the stuff we were doing at the future I felt was so high value. High level is like, oh my gosh, I would pay for this information. And the viewership there was nowhere near what I was getting on this one single video. So I was. I was just so perplexed and so surprised. And so I was like, okay, people like this stuff. This is interesting. I have a voice here that people are interested in. I want to see. Is this a fluke or can I do it again? So I produced a few more videos kind of around the same topic. They all hit few million views each video. And I was like, okay, this is wild. There's something here. It's not just a fluke. Like there's a formula here. I kind of struck a nerve and I kind of figure something out. So I kept doing that in the background and doing more and more videos, kind of just taking a half step out each video to explore how big my voice and perspective, how many kind of topics it can cover under the realm of what it is. That I do. And over the years, what I've discovered is it kind of felt random when I was doing it, but when I look back, it kind of makes sense because all of it was me just sharing aspects of my life, things that I like to do, design and build and make through the lens of a designer. And because of all the things that I've done at the future, learning how to unpack things and teach that to people in ways that are digestible and entertaining, I felt like that came through with the content that I was making as well.
- [09:49]
Chris Doe
The video that you dropped, that skyrocketed, I think surpassed your expectations, but it completely blew me away. I was in awe because for us, a good video would get, like 30,000 views. And. And I always believe what we make is kind of boring. It's educational content. Unless you're running a business and you're trying to sort out one problem that we're talking about. No one else was. No one else would be watching it. And so it's always, to my surprise that many, many years later, we have a couple million subs. And it's like, I don't even know who's here. Why are you guys here? But when I watch your video, it ticks all these, like, little boxes. Diy Home Improvement asmr Meticulous planning and design. So there's an aesthetic part. So you could have tuned in for one and got a bonus 4. And it was all wrapped in this, really. And I know a lot about how you work. It's. There's meticulous planning and researching and designing and working out the problem. Nothing is by chance. And every frame, every color grade, every shot, and the lighting is very meticulous. From, I think, many years of you directing commercials and music videos for other people, we have to put that insane amount of planning into it because it's very expensive to make a mistake, but probably more so. It's professionally very embarrassing to say, like, yeah, I kind of effed up on that, and that's the best I could do. Right, right. You took that same kind of discipline, attention to detail into making videos for YouTube. And this banger comes out, and of course, we're all sitting there thinking, did he crack the Da Vinci Code? Is he going to be able to do this again? Next video drops banger and banger after banger. It's like, this ain't luck. This is deliberate, meticulous planning. We just finished an episode with Adrian. He goes through crazy amounts of planning, too. Must be a Filipino thing, because Matthew's Filipino, too. That's why we can't do it. You're screwed and I'm screwed. I don't have enough of that gene. Right. So when we see a video that's 10 minutes long based on some general rules of thumb based on how you do things, how much work and man hours is going into it before you even get to see this 10 minute video?
- [11:54]
Matthew Encina
It depends, but I would say it's at least a month, probably three months.
- [11:58]
Chris Doe
Oh, my God.
- [11:59]
Matthew Encina
But then some of the latest videos, probably the last three or four videos, have been all about product design.
- [12:06]
Chris Doe
Yeah.
- [12:07]
Matthew Encina
And that's in. I'm documenting. While I'm making and manufacturing goods, it takes six months to a year.
- [12:15]
Chris Doe
Yeah.
- [12:15]
Matthew Encina
So I'm documenting for a whole year. And then. And then it comes out. So that's how long it takes.
- [12:21]
Chris Doe
Okay. So when you see really high, high level production, you don't understand that when you're watching it and you're just in awe. You feel it, but you don't understand it. Because quite literally, when I watch you're building the keyboard series and some of your industrial design stuff, I kind of know what it takes. You're going through rounds and okay, now we're on a conference call. I'm like, oh, my God, we're not even manufacturing yet. And they're just giving notes and I'm doing some more research, I'm building more prototypes, I'm solving a new problem, and the process takes so long. I'm just curious, at some point, when you get into these projects that are three, six months plus, do you ever get the feeling like, I'm losing steam and interest in this, or I'm just a gung ho about doing it?
- [13:02]
Matthew Encina
Surprisingly, I don't lose steam and interest because with the nature of a lot of product design, it's a lot of hurry and wait. Where you do these sprints of work where you're hyper focused on something, it's like, all right, I got to figure, finish this iteration of this prototype, and then it's off to manufacturing to make the prototype. And you might have to wait a couple of weeks before you get it back. So what I do in those lull times is I have another project to work on.
- [13:27]
Chris Doe
I see.
- [13:27]
Matthew Encina
So I have a good handful of projects that I'm just juggling very slowly to be able to pause on one and then resume another and then pause on that. So they're kind of in a little bit of a relay race and they're just going around the track. And luckily that just keeps Me stimulated. And it's always fun with those types of projects where I did a lot of work and I kind of forget about it for a couple of weeks, and then all of a sudden, I receive a package and I have a physical prototype of something, and then I get reinvented.
- [13:57]
Chris Doe
Very exciting.
- [13:57]
Matthew Encina
Yes, exciting. It's like, oh, I get to see it and I get to touch it. And now it's like, how can I make this better before we launch this? How can I make this better? And then we do another sprint and then maybe more prototyping or so. It keeps things very engaging for me, especially because there's something about having a tangible, physical product versus, you know, all the digital stuff we do on screen. There's something very rewarding. And, I don't know, you start to build a lot of energy and excitement towards this thing that you're going to launch.
- [14:32]
Chris Doe
Mm. I will talk to you so much more about the process and the direction in which you're going as a content creator, and also the things that make you super excited. But I want to take you back a little bit. I want to talk about a little bit about this idea that you had shared with us before, which was, I wanted to make sure if I could sustain the living I was making before as a salaried employee. And that's a pretty reasonable thing. You make money and you think, I just want to maintain a certain lifestyle. I don't want to go backwards. I can if necessary. But it starts with a question like, I wonder if I can.
- [15:07]
Matthew Encina
And.
- [15:07]
Chris Doe
And then you. You leave and you take off. Tell us what happens then.
- [15:12]
Matthew Encina
Yeah, I think that first year I was making four times my salary in revenue, so that was very exciting. The following year is not as much, but I think it's because I had the overlap of the job, everything at the future, and then all of this kind of momentum coming out of it. Over the past two years, I would say things have slowed down, but in a good way, because I have been exploring so much in industrial design, things that I have never done before, where I'm not producing a video that often. Maybe every three months, I'm producing a video. And I think when I first had left the future, I was doing at least one every month.
- [15:52]
Chris Doe
Yeah.
- [15:52]
Matthew Encina
And each one had a sponsor. And a lot of that just generated a lot of revenue and income for me. Now, because my time is spent behind the scenes working and documenting stuff, not releasing content. It's a lot slower, but I kind of like it. I really appreciate it because I'm I don't feel stressed to constantly feed this content machine. It's like it comes out when it comes out. And luckily, I'm still able to maintain my lifestyle, healthy, good lifestyle, and feel very engaged and focused in the work that I do where I could give it my attention and not feel like I'm spread through.
- [16:28]
Chris Doe
Let me clarify for the audience in case they just missed it, because Matthew almost glided right over it, which was he was hoping to make the same amount of money and then shortly thereafter, leaving, doing his own thing, taking on all the risk. And Peter Drucker said this, in business, all profit comes from risk. The more risks you take, the more profit you have to make. That's a potential, not a guarantee. And so you go out instead of making 1x of what he used to make. And I know what he was paid, so now I know how much money he made. I won't say he made not two times, not three times, but four times as much money in the first year. So in theory, he could have taken off the next three years and been all right. Yeah, because you were used to making that kind of money, right?
- [17:08]
Matthew Encina
Yeah.
- [17:09]
Chris Doe
And that means you can coast. So you bought yourself a lot of freedom, and I think that's the real meaning of wealth. Not that you have a lot of money, but the freedom to do what you want. And now you can say, I can earn as much as I want, but I can do it on my own timetable. So here's the big question I have for you. Being almost kind of engineered from the jump to be a commercial artist. You and I, we went to Art Center, a place that is really well known for creating practical, skilled designers who can enter into the field and make a decent living. So we're hardwired to work for other people to fulfill the creative brief. So what happens to you? What happens to your psychology when there is no creative brief? There is no master. Everything has to come from inside. How does that feel for you? Because that's a very, very radical change from somebody's gonna tell me, like, there's a project to do and I'm gonna work on it versus no more projects. What am I going to do? How is that transition like for you?
- [18:05]
Matthew Encina
That was very refreshing. I was getting tastes of it along the way. Right. Because I was doing this stuff nights and weekends anyway, while I was working at the future. But even at the future, I was experiencing some of that. A little taste of entrepreneurship, a little taste of, okay, you gave me a lot of room at the future to just do whatever I want pretty much you're like, okay, make whatever you want under this umbrella and just try stuff. So that was very helpful for me to realize, okay, I have a voice, even though I'm trying all kinds of different things and, and I was able to learn. So I'm a very risk averse person. I think I told you that when I had quit. And so it felt very calculated to the point where I have confidence that if I leave, you know, things will be good for a while, you know, And I feel ever since I left, I feel that same confidence where I'm just existing in the world day to day. And I kind of look around and all I see are possibilities. Luckily, I don't have to worry about the money. I don't have to worry about necessarily when the next video is coming out. Like, I do have timetables and stuff like that, but I'm not stressed about it. It's not occupying my mind where with a client, you know, there's weekly deadlines, you know, bi weekly deadlines, things that come up all the time. So that change of pace was actually very refreshing for me because I just create my own deadlines to a degree. And luckily things are still happening. So I'm. I don't know, I'm very grateful, I'm very blessed that the universe is, I feel, is like whispering in one ear. And I'm able to kind of flow with, with all of that currently.
- [19:50]
Chris Doe
So what you're saying is had I kept a tighter rope on you all, gave you strict deadlines and kept being the taskmaster, you might not have tasted the freedom.
- [19:58]
Matthew Encina
That's right.
- [19:58]
Chris Doe
And then you're like, I'm not leaving. I don't know what that's like.
- [20:00]
Matthew Encina
Yes.
- [20:01]
Chris Doe
But it's a smooth transition. Yes, honey, I screwed up. I told him I was confident. I give everybody so much freedom. That's the thing that we talk about, though. I remember this. And you've. You've been pretty instrumental in shaping a couple, like, big seismic changes within my own thinking. The first time, I can't recall all of them, but I remember one right now. Because you're like, chris, what if we just focus on doing just the future, no more blind service work. And it took me a beat. I'm like, okay, try. Because we were doing the math and the logic when we, let's say, book a $600,000 job, you're not keeping 600,000. You might keep 100, 150, but then the rest of the year, you're just burning that 150 down to nothing because we're not doing another project.
- [20:43]
Matthew Encina
Right.
- [20:44]
Chris Doe
You're just keeping the machine going. At a point, you kind of get caught up in just the cycle of sustaining yourself. So your framing of the question meant if we launched an educational product because it isn't super expensive for us to produce, we could make 100,000 or 200,000, but almost all of it would be profit. And the good news is it's ip, hopefully is a perennial seller and it can generate long term revenue, but it's building a library of stuff. And that kind of surprisingly just messed my brain up in the very best ways. And so I do appreciate you saying things like that. And so you kind of made me sense this other idea. But I want to get back to the thing that we were just talking about, which was when we worked for someone, agencies, there's always a master, there's always a client. And then we started doing content for ourselves, which was radically different. I remember slowly inviting each and every one of you into the circle, whatever that is, to taste the freedom. What we realized is when you open the gate, the chickens run. They don't want to go back in the cage. And I'd ask you guys, despite investing almost all of your creative energy up until this point in developing a professional reel to do work for clients, to the man, to the human, you're like, we don't want to go back. Even if it means this is weird, undefined, and it's not as sexy. There are big brands attached to it. We just don't want to go back. Take me through a little bit of your thinking then when, when that door was open and how it felt because not only you, but Greg and others were like, yes, we don't want to go back.
- [22:12]
Matthew Encina
Yeah, I think for me, again, I just had full confidence. A lot of that is owed to you and how you've helped me see possibility and kind of focus on the abundance mindset rather than scarcity. Right. So the whole time, I always felt like we could always go back to that. So I felt like we had a safety net. So I didn't fear trying new things. It was more exciting because you know that fear and excitement feels the same in your body. Right. How you look at it determines which one you're actually feeling. And for me, it was mostly excitement. It's like, this is new territory. What will this reveal for us? So I think about it almost like you're going into a dark room. No lights are on and you have a flashlight and you're flashing the light around and slowly but surely, you know, you're starting to reveal parts of the room you're starting to see and you're starting to understand what it is that's there. You might walk in and you might bump your knee on something and that might hurt, but you know that it's there. Right. And the more you spend in this dark room, the more you kind of feel where's the edges, how big this room is, what's actually in here. And it felt like so much possibility at the time when we were starting the future, when we were building the future, because there was so many possibilities where we could take it. What does the content look like? What are we going to focus on? What format does it take? Right, that's one avenue. What products does that lead to? What products can we develop? What are things that we do every day that we might take for granted but could be valuable to somebody else that could be a source of content or product? And then what about events? What about, we have all this physical space? How do we use it? How do we engage the community? So all of these things were brand new versus all of the advertising work that we had been doing to that point. It was, I knew it like the back of my hand. Everything was, I knew what was going to happen in every single project. It was just a well oiled machine. And even though the work was fun and beautiful, it just felt like doing the same thing over and over. And it was nice to try something new.
- [24:23]
Chris Doe
Yeah. Okay, let's take us now kind of more in into present day. When you've got your own channel out, you're exploring brand deals, that's how you make money. And the videos get so many views that it's exposing it to so many folks. That's great. Then what was the thing that led you to the first moment when you're like, I think I want to develop some products. How did that come about and why did you decide to go down that path?
- [24:47]
Matthew Encina
I owe a lot of my success to people seeing things in me that I couldn't see for myself. I think you saw that in me. A lot of my instructors from the past, as I was going through education, always kind of pushed me beyond my capacity or what I felt comfortable in. And as soon as I had quit my job at the Future, which I made a public announcement about that, you know, all kinds of conversations started happening. A lot of them were job offers and I'm like, thank you, I appreciate that. But not right now. Like I owe it to myself to just have downtime do a little bit of a sabbatical and some soul searching and see what happens. But one of those conversations that came along was my friends over at Grovemade. They make desk accessories and they're based out of Portland. They had been sponsoring and helping out my channel in various ways over the years. So I'd been developing a relationship with them for about three years at that point. And they asked me, hey, would you like to develop a product with us? I highly respected them at that point. I love the goods that they make and because they were inviting me into this process, I was very excited to join. Just like I was explaining right before, new things excite me, new problems. Even though it can be a little scary, I don't see it that way. I see it as pure possibilities. I don't know what it's going to lead me to, but I'm open to take the ride and see where it takes me. So that was a two year journey with them of doing a little kind of investigation, doing a little bit of just exploring what products it could be. They visited me a couple times, I visited them and over a two year process we developed a product that we call the Note Taking Kit, which is just a way to help you capture, store and recall your ideas. And that was an amazing process to me because I got to watch Masters at Work, something that I felt like I knew nothing about, was always curious about because I love learning about how things are made and I was just a sponge in that situation. I gave what I could as a designer as my perspective. And I think one of the reasons why they worked with me is obvious because of my content. And they liked the perspective that I had and they felt there was alignment there. And even though I didn't have any experience in industrial design or designing products, they valued my opinion and perspective. So they invited me into that process and that's really what set me off down this path.
- [27:16]
Chris Doe
There was a lot of obvious synergies between the kinds of DIY home improvement esthetic things that you're doing that would make a lot of sense for Grovemade to kind of sponsor you and as being fans of the channel. This is the power of, I guess, inbound content, content marketing where you attract the kinds of people who have shared ideas or philosophies as you. You're not actively chasing them down. Ultimately, instead of chasing, you're choosing who you want to work with. And I know you're very particular as to who you align with and kinds of things that you'll talk about and never Do I get this feeling from you like, I'm going to take this because it's cash grab. In fact, you're quite the opposite. Like, I'm not sure that's a good fit for me. And I think making smart decisions like that have allowed you to grow in the way that you want to align yourself with the partners that actually contribute to your own growth. And for them seeing that within you to say, hey, and I can see it from their point of view, man, we got this guy who can make banger videos. So whatever he touches, it's going to get a lot of eyeballs on. The next evolution to that relationship is why don't you develop a product and then we already know you're going to be able to tell a great story behind it and get lots of views. So there's a natural built in marketing device that feels very organic to who you are. I think if I'm not mistaken, you guys want to visit me at the studio. We're still in Pandemic. I think we're all messed up and we're talking about things and you're doing some user research, right? Same, same people.
- [28:40]
Matthew Encina
Yes.
- [28:40]
Chris Doe
Yeah. Okay, so even then you were still working despite certain limitations and figuring it out. Okay, so one journey, one door opens, you go through that, another door opens, another door opens. And yeah, I don't know if you ever get this feeling, because I do. Do you ever get the moment where you're like, is this a dream I'm living? Because how is this happening for me right now? And if you do, can you tell me a little bit about that experience? If you don't, that's okay too.
- [29:04]
Matthew Encina
Yeah, no, I feel that way every day. Every time I pause and think about what it is I'm doing, you know, I just reflect on how grateful I am to be in this position, to be doing the things that I'm doing, to have the creativity, the body and everything that I'm doing, like my health, wealth, and luckily, just being able to express my creativity in these forms and fashion. I'm grateful for that every day. And I reflect on that often. So I do feel like it's a dream. It doesn't make sense. Sometimes I look back, it's like, how did this happen? How did this even happen? But then I tried to rationalize. It's like, actually it makes perfect sense. And it's this weird kind of dichotomy of going back and forth, of, I'm so grateful, do I even deserve this? And it's like, of course it Makes perfect sense. You did all this hard work and all of these dots connect, right?
- [29:55]
Chris Doe
Matthew, I agree with you. We can simultaneously live in this dual state where we're like, what the fudge is happening? But this is the residual of all this planning and preparation. And so people tell me, like, hard work and preparation increases the surface area of luck to happen. And it's like there's more opportunities for luck to hit. You've done all that work. Now I want to get to the super exciting part. You are developing a line of keyboards and other accessories. So the accessories are getting more complicated. Now. It used to be things with almost no moving parts, and now there's lots of moving parts. And I remember I was chatting with one of our friends and colleagues, Ben Burns, who I think introduced you to mechanical keyboards. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I have a hundred. You're insane. You guys have a sickness, both of you. And then I'm looking at him like, I appreciate the video. I appreciate all the clicky, cocky sounds. And my son is super addicted to these things. Well, you guys are crazy. I just need a keyboard that works. And then I find that there's a launch happening. Then I'm asleep. Not literally, but. And I check in. I'm like, hey, I'm ready to buy it. It sold out in, like, seconds. It felt like, yeah, right. It was gone in a minute. It was like, what? So I messaged you and you're like, hey, Chris, I'll build one for you. Because what I don't even realize is you don't just order, you got to build it. Yeah, but that's when I tapped out. I'm like, dude, I cannot Sol, it's too much. I like this. I can appreciate it, but I can't. And you did me one. One further where like, let's talk it through. I'll build it for you. And then I get this really beautiful. And it weighs a ton. And, you know, there's a thing about weight and quality. The sense that the heavy things are built better. And I'm using it. At first I'm like, I miss my full size keyboard and everything. I'm using it, I'm using it. And it's like, is highly addictive and soothing to use a mechanical keyboard that's been tuned to exactly what you need and want. And now I feel like I'm going to go down a dark rabbit hole or something. Which you, I think, was introduced to and fell down yourself, right?
- [31:53]
Matthew Encina
Yeah. Yeah.
- [31:54]
Chris Doe
So for people who don't understand this, why the heck Would anyone want a keyboard that's hard to get, that takes hours to build, and may not even go right? Because you're like, hey, you got to test everything, right? Why would people want that? Describe that feeling to them, that joy.
- [32:09]
Matthew Encina
Yeah. I think a lot of folks like to tinker, right? And sometimes that's building and restoring an old car, sometimes that's doing a DIY project, sometimes that's working on a puzzle while you're drinking wine at night to wind down. And to me, keyboards are very similar to that. I got introduced to keyboards about three years ago, maybe four years now, and. And I had built out everything in my home that I could possibly be building, and I ran out of stuff to tinker with. And so this had just come at the right time. It was like, okay, mechanical keyboards, give me the parts. I'll kind of figure this out. And so it's intimidating at first because it can be overwhelming, like anything new. But once you build one keyboard, you get to experience it, and you get to break it down and modify it and build it again and then build it again. And then maybe you buy a second keyboard and build it a different way, and you'll realize that depending on the design of it, the engineering of it, what switches you use, what keycaps, you can change the aesthetic, sound, and feel. So it just. There's a lot of possibilities that you can explore within a custom mechanical keyboard. That makes it very fun, if you like to tinker, right? And then the nice thing is you get to use it as a device for your computer. And I do a lot of writing. I do a lot of stuff on the computer, so it's. It's a joy to type on for me. So it's. It's fun to. To build these and then get to use them after.
- [33:32]
Chris Doe
I think industrial designers, the really good ones, obsess over every little nuance and detail, from the reaction time to the noise it makes, how squishy it is, just amount of resistance. And you describe certain things to me that I just couldn't get until you start to use it. Oftentimes when you type on a Mac keyboard, because of the scissor spring or whatever they've got in there, I'm never sure, like, did I hit it and I had to stop and check? No, I hit it, and you keep going. But with the mechanical keyboard, the one that you set up for me as a resistance point, it's harder to accidentally hit it, so you can hover over it, but then you really have to push it and you feel the resistance, and there's a little bit of change. And when you told me about it, when I went to use it, I'm like, oh, I now know what you're talking about. So there's something very gratifying, knowing very well I did what I did, and I don't have to worry that I didn't do what I did. And I know that sounds stupid. Until you get yourself a mechanical keyboard, it's like crack, guys. It really is.
- [34:27]
Matthew Encina
It's. It's a fun, tactile experience, and there's just a nice kind of kinetic energy that you connect with when you're. You're typing. And, I don't know, it does get very addicting.
- [34:37]
Chris Doe
So tell me a little bit, if you can, about the business structure of this, because people are listening. Cool. Cool. I got a channel doing brand collabs. I'm having products designed, so correct me if I'm wrong. It's your concept. You designed it. You specced everything. They build it, and then do you get a piece of it? How does that work? How do you make money from doing something like this?
- [34:58]
Matthew Encina
Yeah, so I've worked with a lot of different partners over the past three years, and they all kind of break down a little differently. But usually what happens is I enter in as a designer, and my role as a designer sometimes is very minimal, where aspects of the product are already figured it out. Are figured out, and I'm there selecting very particular, you know, materials or colorways. And then other times, like the keyboard, the encore keyboard, they just give me carte blanche. We kind of do a kickoff call, and they say, here's what we would like it to be. And I say, yep, I'm aligned there. And then they just say, go. And then so I design it from scratch. I kind of pass it back and forth with them because I'm not an expert in building any of that stuff. I had to learn CAD modeling. I had to learn a lot of these things along the way, and. And luckily, my partners at Mode were just very gracious in teaching me things that I didn't know before. So where there's moments of a lot more authorship where I'm taking a lot more risk, that's where I would get more of the pie. So with a lot of these products that I've worked on, I usually get a royalty percentage as the designer of the product. So as long as we're selling the product, I'll get a cut of that thing. And, yeah, it's nice because some of these products I'll build once, and then we'll do multiple runs of those things. So then I just keep getting the royalty payments for those. So that's. That's nice. And I've learned a lot in the past three years. And again, I've just been side by side with a lot of these experts. Now I'm kind of moving into the space where I'm wondering, could I just do it all on my own? Do I need the partner? And can I just take the whole piece? And so I'm doing a lot of research these days, looking for manufacturers, talking to different folks, and I'm starting to see the dots that I can connect. And I'm starting to get that excitement again, even though it was very intimidating at first. The reason why I partnered with a lot of these brands to manufacture these things for me is because I knew nothing. And I just wanted to be the sponge in that situation. I just want to learn now. I have a lot more confidence where I feel like I know what it takes. I've done this a couple times with the help of experts. Can I do this myself? And I do have that confidence, and I'm feeling that trajectory is kind of pulling me in that direction now.
- [37:14]
Chris Doe
Okay, so you're increasing the amount of risk that you're willing to take on and kind of learning as you're going to kind of figure out what the pitfalls are. I think I encourage you to do it. There's one potential pitfall, which is this beautiful lifestyle business you've been able to build for yourself will most likely be going away.
- [37:33]
Matthew Encina
Yes.
- [37:33]
Chris Doe
Because the minute you start taking on inventory, you're like, now putting money into it. There's fulfillment, customer service. So now it's a business. And you're going to have to. Because I know you as this ethical person, you can't just ship it and abandon it if it doesn't feel like right anymore.
- [37:48]
Matthew Encina
Yes.
- [37:49]
Chris Doe
You kind of stuck with it for a while.
- [37:50]
Matthew Encina
Yes. So I'm very aware of that. And the thing that I've been so grateful for and been trying to maintain for these past three years is that lifestyle.
- [37:57]
Chris Doe
Yeah.
- [37:58]
Matthew Encina
Where if tomorrow I don't want to work on any video content, like I'll just pick up and go and do something else.
- [38:03]
Chris Doe
Yeah.
- [38:04]
Matthew Encina
And I value that a lot. I've been meditating on this as I inch closer to thinking about this, and I'm still looking for ways where I might be able to leverage somebody else's resources to be able to handle the things that I might not excel at. Or want to do. So I could use something like a 3PL to do my fulfillment for me.
- [38:26]
Chris Doe
What is the 3PL?
- [38:27]
Matthew Encina
A third party logistics.
- [38:29]
Chris Doe
Oh, look at, everybody knows about me.
- [38:31]
Matthew Encina
Yeah, there's like a warehouse where like Amazon has 3pl, like they will do all the fulfillment for you. Right. And so I'm looking at options like that. I'm just trying to understand the playing field. I'm trying to understand where it's going to hurt. And I'm warming up to the idea of taking on a little bit more of that pain. The things that I. I don't necessarily love doing, but I could see me getting involved and actually liking it. So I'm warming up to it. I'm not fully there yet, but like I said earlier, I'm risk averse and I'm just taking baby steps towards this direction.
- [39:04]
Chris Doe
Well, if the past is any indicator of the future, I think you're going to do well and you'll do all the research, the design, and you'll figure it out. I have a couple more questions for you. One thing I wanted to ask you was what's the one thing that really surprised you about this whole journey and going on your own?
- [39:21]
Matthew Encina
Hmm. The biggest thing that surprised me when I left the future and went on my own was what I was able to do after. And all the things I did after were things I hadn't done before. So those were. That was the most exciting thing. None of these things were planned. Like I barely know what I'm doing next week. I don't have long term vision, like I don't have a five year plan or anything like that. I kind of just listen to my intuition and my gut and I really let my curiosity and passion just pull me as hard as possible. So these curiosities. When I left the future, my goal at the time was to become a better storyteller in whatever form that would be. And the universe kind of answered. And our friends over at webflow had called me up and they said, hey, do you want to direct a documentary for us? And I said, you know, I'm not a documentary director. But they saw that possibility in me. And I was like, okay, this is new. It aligns with my goal, which is just to become a better storyteller. Let me try it in this format. And we worked on a multi part series called Generation no Code. And that was fun. That was incredible. It was at the time we were just inching out of the pandemic, got to travel, I got to meet a lot of designers. John Saunders who, you know, great guy, great people. And so that was a great project for me. The thing with Grove made getting into product design things I had never anticipated for myself. I never saw myself doing these things, yet there I was. And now something that I'm doing now with the keyboard, that started as a pandemic hobby that I got really passionate about, turned into products and things that I'm making expressions that I wanted to see in the world that I didn't see before. So it's just amazing what happens when you allow possibility to take over and you have confidence in the things that you're doing.
- [41:18]
Chris Doe
There's one thing I wanted to highlight real quickly. You can respond to it or not, and then I'll get to another question. But I think your approach to making content is a little bit more akin to how Stephen Barlett, the Diary CEO person, does it. There's a lot of planning, slight research. There's a lot of AB testing for titles and thumbnails before anything is made. And I admire the amount of energy and focus and intentionality you put behind your things because I can see it every time you drop a video. There's Instagram posts, there's reels and cut downs, trailers and all this stuff to drive that first day drop number and really pushing hard. We're a volume kind of operation. I have an idea. We just make it. There's not a lot of planning or thinking. Things go out, we adjust on the fly. That's kind of our style. But I can also really, really appreciate the amount of focus, energy put on it. Because if a video doesn't drop for like once a month or every other month.
- [42:09]
Matthew Encina
Yeah.
- [42:09]
Chris Doe
It's got to work. Otherwise like shoot.
- [42:11]
Matthew Encina
Yeah.
- [42:11]
Chris Doe
You're going to, if you're going to wait another three months before you see the next thing. For me. Right.
- [42:14]
Matthew Encina
Yeah.
- [42:15]
Chris Doe
And so I just wanted to appreciate and acknowledge that. So some of you are like, yeah, I'll just start out tomorrow, have a multimillion viewed video. You might, but you got to put in the work. I think you could get lucky.
- [42:24]
Matthew Encina
Yeah. You know, each video I treat like a launch.
- [42:27]
Chris Doe
Yeah.
- [42:28]
Matthew Encina
So with working in the commercial advertising space, we spent many months working on the launch, usually of a product to announce something, working at the future, working with Ben and the folks there. When we would launch a new digital product, it was the same thing. Right. We have a hard date. We have to have all these assets and all these points that are all pushing down this funnel, different messaging points so that there's a lot of excitement. When it actually drops and I think about creating videos in the same way, it is a launch for me, it's a big thing. It's not just like a casual, like I'm uploading today. It's like, no, this is a launch. Like I treat it as such.
- [43:05]
Chris Doe
Okay, this one's gonna be a little harder, so take as much time you need to reflect on this. I'd love for you to reflect on this storied career that you have working with some of the biggest brands in the world. And I think it was a beautiful way to kind of end one chapter, to finish a video for Coldplay, to do this amazing video for Xbox. And then now content, now product brand deals. What are the three biggest lessons that you've learned that you wish you could tell Matt at 21, they could be on anything. It could be about relationships, health, wealth. It could be about taking the shot earlier or believing in yourself or grabbing the lion or whatever it is you want to say. I'd love for you to look at the camera and say, here are three of the lessons that I wish I knew when I was 21 and just this is your TedX moment.
- [43:54]
Matthew Encina
I wouldn't change who I was at 21. I wouldn't change my trajectory at all. But I will share the three lessons that I've learned. I think the first lesson that I've learned on this journey of exploring possibility for the past few years is lean into your curiosity. I think most people are surface level curious or they might do a Google search worth of something or try something or a surface level, but never go deep enough where they're finding interesting novel perspectives or viewpoints or information that most of the world doesn't have. So when you lean into your curiosity, you discover all of these beautiful things that feels like you're treasure hunting. A lot of the projects that I've been on that curiosity has unpacked so many bits of novel information for me that get me excited, that get me creating interesting features or aspects to the products or projects that I'm working on. So if you lean into your curiosity, it's you'll be finding treasure all day. And when you find that treasure, then you get to share that with the world. And that is a big filter that I use when I create my content, which is if it was novel and new to me, that means it's going to be interesting for somebody else. So those are the things that I tend to include in my video. Things that don't have that I tend to edit out. Lean into Your curiosity, Because that, I think, is a superpower.
- [45:25]
Chris Doe
I think the recap on the leaning into your curiosity is. It's like what we do is we talk about the T scale, where you can know a little bit about a lot of things or a lot about one thing. And it's the Bruce Lee quote. I don't feel the person who's practiced 10,000 kicks one time, but I do fear the man who's practiced one kick 10,000 times that repetition breeds skill. Skill breeds confidence. And then eventually you start to know those patterns and you can innovate from that. So follow that and take it to the N3. I always say, reach the terminus of what it is that you want to get into. And that's what I do. And then I'm bored. And then move on to the next.
- [45:59]
Matthew Encina
And move on to the next thing. Yeah, to that point. Moving on to the next thing. The second thing that I would give advice or something that I've learned over these past few years is that everything adds up. So the thing that you're doing right now, the thing that you're exploring right now, sometimes people project too much in the future and think, am I wasting my time? Am I doing this? And then it's not going to result in any money or it's not going to result in a career. I never look at stuff like that. I just keep going. And sometimes things don't click right away, but it might take a few years where all of a sudden the dots connect. And I've experienced that a lot in the past few years where there's ideas for things that I've had, things that I've noticed for products, but I never had the skills for it. Fast forward a few years later, once I've learned more skills. Now, these perspectives and things that I've learned, features that I've seen elsewhere that I've wanted to infuse. I can express that because I now have the tools and dots to connect that I previously didn't have before. So I think everything adds up. So don't stress out too much about what's going to happen in the future. I think just focusing and doing the thing that you're doing right now very well and earnestly is key.
- [47:19]
Chris Doe
Excellent. You got number three?
- [47:21]
Matthew Encina
Yeah, number three. If someone else can do it, so can you. That was the biggest lesson that I felt like I had learned and what gave me full confidence to leave the future. I saw Chris build the future from nothing, from zero subscribers up to over 2 million now. And it was. There's something to say where if there's somebody in your proximity or somebody that you can relate to or see and you see them build up something, all of a sudden that possibility becomes very clear in your mind and you start to ask yourself if they can do it, why not me? And I think seeing people like you and seeing other like different content creators mature and develop and explore different routes over the years, it gave me a lot of possibilities in my mind. Like I'm actually pretty well equipped to tackle these things. If they can do it, why not me? Right? And so that was a very big lesson. So it's one of the things that I'm very appreciative of kind of growing up and maturing. So one of the reasons why I do the content that I do is so that I get show people the possibilities. If I can figure it out from zero, you could do it as well. And that's why I share the things that I do.
- [48:35]
Chris Doe
Okay, two personal questions real quick before we get out of here is what's going on with your B boy stuff? That's the first one.
- [48:43]
Matthew Encina
Yeah. So I'm still, I'm still dancing. I've been dancing since 1999. So I've been dancing for a long time and it's been a really big part of my life because I discovered dancing at a time where I was, you know, the scrawny 90 pound kid, didn't have a lot of confidence, but that gave me a certain perspective and attitude. There's a whole kind of culture and lifestyle that you have to be kind of aggressive, engaged and expressive. That just helped me slowly, over time, build that confidence. So that was a second life that I kind of straddled for a long time. And interestingly enough, over my career I've hired and worked with a lot of people that I've met through the dance scene and a lot of those folks are doing interesting things themselves. So dance is really important to me and I still get to practice probably once a week with friends.
- [49:31]
Chris Doe
Are you doing the dance competitions with the crew?
- [49:33]
Matthew Encina
I am.
- [49:34]
Chris Doe
You are.
- [49:35]
Matthew Encina
It hurts. It hurts. It's not the same.
- [49:38]
Chris Doe
Time catches us, catches everybody. No one's immune to that.
- [49:41]
Matthew Encina
Yeah, but I'm not trying to compete. I'm just trying to be creative. All I care about is it's a form of expression for me. So I take off all the pressure of competition and I just, I just want to dance.
- [49:52]
Chris Doe
Okay.
- [49:52]
Matthew Encina
Yeah.
- [49:53]
Chris Doe
Hot take. You ready? I don't want you to overthink this one. We can edit this out if it doesn't work out. The Australian B girl who did her thing, was she a troll or was she being super creative or something? Something in between.
- [50:05]
Matthew Encina
I think there's a lot of room for what she did at the Olympics. If. I think most people just saw that and made a headline judgment about dancing in its current state. If that's all you focus on, you missed out on all the beautiful performances that happened during the Olympics. And if you think that what she was doing was trolling, then you obviously have not spent any time in B boy culture and you don't understand a breaking culture and all the room there is for creativity.
- [50:41]
Chris Doe
So she, she took a big gamble, took her shot, and people are misinterpreting it.
- [50:47]
Matthew Encina
I think she did her thing.
- [50:49]
Chris Doe
Yeah.
- [50:49]
Matthew Encina
I think she just did her thing. And I don't. I mean, that's. There's a lot of debate whether the breaking should even be in the Olympics. Right. But it's a sport. If you just look at the definition of the sport, right. People competing for entertainment, I think that's like the most basic version of a sport. But there are so many things like that. But with that breaking is part art and then part sport.
- [51:13]
Chris Doe
Yeah.
- [51:13]
Matthew Encina
And for me, I'm most interested in the creative aspects. Maybe it's just because of where I'm at in my life and the competitive stuff, that's cool. But it, it doesn't interest me as much.
- [51:24]
Chris Doe
Okay. I've also witnessed you go through some transformations, not just in creativity, design and expressions of what you can do, but physically as a student. You were physically a certain way. And, and then I remember there was a summer somewhere with you and Chris O'Neill and like everybody's trying to get into shape and it was like a six pack competition and you got ripped. You got ripped. Where are you on your journey to physical fitness and all the crazy things you could do. The flag pole you could do. I don't know. What, what do you call that thing when you're just floating in air with your hands on the bar?
- [51:55]
Matthew Encina
Yeah, that's a flag.
- [51:57]
Chris Doe
Is that a flag like this way? Not, not sideways.
- [51:59]
Matthew Encina
Oh, a front lever.
- [52:00]
Chris Doe
Front lever. I didn't even know the names of things. Yeah, he's showing me how to do the front lever. I'm like, I can't do the front lever. Can you still do the different lever?
- [52:06]
Matthew Encina
I don't know. I haven't tried in a long time. But I work. I still work out pretty regularly. It just, it's important to me to, I think, be healthy because if my body is healthy and my mind is healthy, then everything just works together.
- [52:19]
Chris Doe
Yeah.
- [52:19]
Matthew Encina
And if one thing is lagging in your life, then it will hurt and kind of become toxic to the other thing. So. Yeah.
- [52:26]
Chris Doe
So I'm gonna just say this lady, she's happily married, but underneath that, he's a specimen. Those are words that Mo would use. He's a specimen. We won't ask him to take off his shirt right now, but we're good.
- [52:35]
Matthew Encina
We'll just assume it's not that kind of show.
- [52:38]
Chris Doe
That's a different show. That's after hours. Everybody subscribe to the channel to get that deep cut. I'm just kidding. It's not going to happen. You don't have to subscribe to anything. Matthew, if people want to keep in touch with you, I know the. The Instagram account modmusings. Right. Is there other accounts we can follow or.
- [52:52]
Matthew Encina
Yeah.
- [52:53]
Chris Doe
Where to direct us to where we need to go?
- [52:54]
Matthew Encina
Yeah. So you can find me on all socials at Matthew and Cena. Matthew and Cena.com and then my design studios, Modmusings.com and Mod Musings on Instagram.
- [53:05]
Chris Doe
Wonderful. I just feel like we've had this conversation already because I just know you so well, but I kind of looked in the records like we haven't had this conversation.
- [53:12]
Matthew Encina
So it's not recorded?
- [53:13]
Chris Doe
No, it's never been recorded. Just in my mind, this podcast has happened many times before. I'm glad that we got to do it now. So now you guys know Matthew is alive. Well, he's not buried in the desert.
- [53:23]
Matthew Encina
That's right.
- [53:23]
Chris Doe
And he's got this whole thriving other career and arc. And I can't wait to see what the next five years hold for for him. And I want to say this in closing. The future is bright, the future is expanding, and the future is in really good hands with people like him. Thanks for joining us. If you haven't already, subscribe to our show on your favorite podcasting app and get new insightful episodes from us every week. The Future podcast is hosted by Chris.
- [53:54]
Matthew Encina
Doe and produced and edited by Rich Cardona Media. Thank you to Adam Sanborn for our intro music. If you enjoyed this episode, then do us a favor by reviewing and rating.
- [54:05]
Chris Doe
Our show on Apple Podcasts. It will help us grow the show and make future episodes that much better.
- [54:13]
Matthew Encina
If you'd like to support the show.
- [54:14]
Chris Doe
And invest in yourself while you're at.
- [54:16]
Matthew Encina
It, visit thefuture.com and you'll find video.
- [54:18]
Chris Doe
Courses, digital products, and a bunch of helpful resources about design in the creative business. Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next time.