← The Futur with Chris Do
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- [00:00]
Mark Manson
If you've ever wondered when to keep going and when to stop, it comes down to a counterintuitive truth about creativity and suffering.
- [00:10]
Chris Do
Isn't it weird how sometimes the hardest answer is the most simple one that's right in front of you, but you just don't see it for whatever reason.
- [00:17]
Mark Manson
It was right here in front of my nose for five years, and I was looking over here. My name is Mark Manson, and you are listening to the future. Future.
- [00:36]
Chris Do
Okay, Mark, I'm going to start off this way. I think I heard you say this or you wrote in your book, the avoidance of suffering is a form of suffering.
- [00:45]
Mark Manson
Yes.
- [00:45]
Chris Do
Can you expand on that?
- [00:47]
Mark Manson
I think the avoidance of any emotion. There's something weird in our psychology in that, like, anytime we resist an emotion, we unintentionally amplify that emotion. So anybody who suffers from anxiety has had the experience of, like, the worst thing you can do when you feel anxious is to stop trying to feel anxious, because that just makes you feel more anxious. You start becoming anxious about the fact that you're anxious. It's the same thing for anger. If you start trying to prevent your anger, you become angry that you're angry, and so you get this weird kind of, like, feedback loop that happens. Trying to eliminate any sort of struggle or pain or suffering in your life ultimately becomes its own form of struggle, pain, or suffering. Because now you're. You're constantly censoring and limiting yourself to prevent yourself from ever potentially having an experience that might be uncomfortable. And that in and of itself is uncomfortable. To me, this. This is kind of like the core thing I got from Buddhism is just that suffering's ever present, so you might as well embrace it and accept it. And I guess from more of, like, an existential point of view or philosophical point of view, like, find the suffering that feels worth having, that feels meaningful, that feels like it's adding value in some way.
- [02:05]
Chris Do
On the topic of suffering, it's just choosing what we care passionately about to suffer through. If we kind of zoom out and look at your arc, how have you chosen the different forms of suffering that you're taking on? I'd like to kind of hear from your perspective how it's evolved over time.
- [02:23]
Mark Manson
Yeah, I think there's kind of two classifications of that. Like, I don't want to call it enjoyable suffering because suffering is not enjoyable, but, like, I guess I'll call it worthwhile suffering. Right. And I'd say one bucket is. It's the things that you are kind of just predisposed to do. And what's interesting about that bucket is that we tend to be very bad at noticing it. So I'll give you an example. Like, I originally wanted to be a musician and I went to music school and it was, I mean, to this day, one of the hardest things I've ever done. Like, music school is no joke. They really put you through the wringer. And it's because it's just such an insanely competitive industry. I think all the arts are like that. So I was in music school and I remember I was at a point I played guitar and I was practicing probably five, five, six hours a day. It was reaching the point where I was starting to get tendonitis in my wrist. My fingers were hurting. I had like calluses and bruises and stuff. And I was so burnt out and sick of my instrument that just like the thought of playing my guitar for another hour, it just made me want to puke. And I remember I went into my lessons one day and I started playing a song that I'd been working on and my teacher stopped me like 10 seconds in and he was like, stop, stop, stop. He said, you know what your problem is? You don't practice enough. And it was heartbreaking. It was in that moment, I'm like, I'm not cut out for this. And I started thinking there was a guy in my program who it was kind of clear to everybody. Like he was, if anybody was going to make it, this guy was going to make it. And I remember talking to him once and I was trying to, like, I was asking him a bunch of questions around practicing and he, I was like, what's your routine? Like, how do you warm up in the morning? How do you approach each song? And he just kind of looked at me like, what are you talking about? Like, I just practice, I just play, dude. Like, I just, I wake up, I start playing, I eat, I go to bed. Like, I don't really think about it beyond that. And it took me a long time to realize there's a follow up story to this, which is that when I started blogging, I really took a lot of pride in that. I would write 5, 10, 20 page articles and publish them, sometimes multiple times a week. And I started when my blog started to blow up, I started getting invited to some of these conferences, some Internet marketing and blogging conferences. And it was funny because people started cornering me in the hallway and they're like, how do you write so much? I was like, what are you talking about? They're like, what's your routine? Like, you know, do you warm up? You know, I'm like, no, dude. I just. I wake up, I start writing, you know, and clicked for me that there is a certain suffering in writing that I'm predisposed to. Rereading a paragraph five or six times and rewriting it and polishing it and over and over and over again. Like, that is agonizing for most people. And for whatever reason, I just seem kind of naturally disposed to enjoy that. And I look back at the music school experience, and it's like most of being a musician is just practicing. And I hated that it was a form of suffering that I was not predisposed to, and I did not find any sort of higher meaning in it. And so I just suffered through it. It just felt like torture. Whereas that guy in my program, he was predisposed to it. It didn't strike him as, like, some sort of sacrifice, right? So I think there's part of it is, like, looking for that thing that most people think is really hard, but for whatever reason, you kind of don't mind it. Like, what's the shit sandwich you don't mind eating? Because that's probably, like, your secret superpower.
- [06:20]
Chris Do
What you do so naturally align with your passion or a higher calling. You probably would not describe it as suffering, right? Or would you?
- [06:30]
Mark Manson
Let's differentiate between pain and suffering. Pain is the discomfort. Something unpleasant, whether it's mental, physical, whatever. Suffering is kind of a more existential misery. And suffering often accompanies pain, but it doesn't have to, right? So it's like, you and I, we love our jobs. Our jobs are sometimes very painful. There are days that just suck. Yes, it's not fun, but I think we would both agree that we are not suffering in those moments. And the reason is because even though that day sucks and whatever we're dealing with is just like a real pain in the ass, we are glad that we're dealing with it. We are very happy to be there in that moment when it becomes suffering is when you're experiencing that pain and you're like, why am I here? Why did I take this job? Why am I still doing this stupid YouTube stuff? That's where the suffering comes in. It's that narrative that you write around the pain in your head. I'm predisposed to writing. That's something that I seem to naturally just be able to sustain the pain of doing better than most people. At a certain point in my career, I found kind of a higher mission of, like, I think the Self help industry sucks. I think most of the, most of the advice is bad. I think a lot of it is counterproductive and like actually harming people's mental health. Let's try to fix that. And so that's the mission that I attach to kind of the talent and like, that's what sustained me through the ups and downs and the wins and losses over the years.
- [08:09]
Chris Do
I have a theory. My theory is that we were all born, designed, created, whatever your belief structure is. And we are given a unique set of skills, physical traits. Our hair, our voice, our eyes were designed to do something. And it's our life's mission to figure out what the heck that's supposed to be. Most of us will go into the grave not knowing what that is. That's the sad part.
- [08:29]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [08:30]
Chris Do
Mostly because through society, through parents, through friends, they've influenced us and told us this is what you're supposed to be in this life. And how pliable you are to accepting that kind of programming determines your level of suffering for the rest of your life.
- [08:42]
Mark Manson
Right.
- [08:42]
Chris Do
Now, if you're a Buddhist, believe in reincarnation, maybe it wasn't meant for you to figure out this life. Maybe it's the next life. And so when I see someone that has a vibe, an aura, a certain wavelength or frequency about them, I already know you found your thing, which you are better created for or designed to do than anyone else in the world. Maybe not the best, but one of the best.
- [09:07]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [09:07]
Chris Do
And it feels natural, it feels easy, it feels like breathing. Like when you ask yourself, what would you be doing if you weren't doing this or like just this?
- [09:14]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [09:14]
Chris Do
So to me, that isn't like for me. Like, my kids would ask me this, dad, if you didn't run the future, what would you be doing? Like, and I really thought about it. I'm like, I'd be doing the same thing.
- [09:23]
Mark Manson
You just start another future. Yeah. Yeah. I would just be.
- [09:25]
Chris Do
I'd be reading.
- [09:26]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [09:27]
Chris Do
Make content and go out and talk to people and try to help people as much as I could. So I don't think there's anything else. For me, this is it. And it took me a while to find. I don't describe that as suffering. And my wife holds this against me. I love your perspective on this as well, is that I'm like, I'm working.
- [09:43]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [09:43]
Chris Do
She goes, that's not work because you enjoy it. So it's only work if you don't enjoy it because the output is the same.
- [09:52]
Mark Manson
Right.
- [09:52]
Chris Do
Even the inputs the same. It's just my frame on. It's different. What's your take on that?
- [09:57]
Mark Manson
The irony is that if you enjoy your work, your output's actually probably better because you care more. You're going to pay more attention to detail, you're going to put more energy into it. You're going to burn out slower. Most people don't find any sort of alignment with what they do with their days and some mission or calling or talent or thing that they're predisposed to. It doesn't mean that you have to necessarily become an artist or you have to become an entrepreneur, but you should try to find something that feels some sort of value or principle or mission that, like, feels aligned with what you're spending your time doing. If anything, just because A, it's going to alleviate some of that suffering, you're not going to feel like you're just torturing yourself for a paycheck, and B, it's actually going to make you more productive. I think the thing that a lot of people get wrong with this question is that they kind of. They go looking for passion as if it's like hiding under a rock somewhere. They think that it's like, it's this magical thing that if they just sign up for the right class online, you know, they'll walk into the room and it's like, boom. The clouds part and the angels sing and it's like, this is what you were meant to do with your life. And it's, you know, as, you know, it's a long, ambiguous process. One part of it is actually investing into something and seeing what you get back from it. There is a certain amount of component to passion that comes from developing a skill and being good at something and being rewarded for it. So I. I think the. The biggest mistake that I see is, is people kind of just, you know, they'll go out and try 10 or 12 different things and they'll do like 10 things once, and they're like, well, I wasn't passionate about any of them. So I, you know, I still don't know what I'm pat. It's not that simple. Like, it's not just gonna show up and just appear to you one day like you have to actually try some things and work at it and put a little bit of time in and develop an understanding of it and see what the trajectory looks like. There are some skills or pursuits that it feels like pushing a rock up a hill. It's like the more effort you put into it, the harder it gets. That's how music school was for me, it was like, the more time I put into it, it felt like the higher up the hill, I was pushing the rock. And then there are other things that it's like, the more you push the rock, the more it's like pushing a rock downhill. The more you push it, the faster it goes. And that's how writing always felt to me. It's like, the more time I put into it, the easier it got. The more I enjoyed it, the better I got, the more I was rewarded for it. And it just got this nice feedback loop going. But you need to put a little bit of time in the stuff to find out what that trajectory feels like for each thing.
- [12:39]
Chris Do
So for five years, writing was not great for you. And then one day you woke up, you're like, oh, I like this. I'm good at this. And now it's good. So there is a period of suffering there, and I can totally relate to it. Like, once you started explaining it like that, I got it. Because at first, if you ask me. Do you want to be on YouTube? No. Please keep the cameras away. I don't want to do this. This is terrible. What a dumb idea. And you resist and you resist. And for years and countless videos, it's like, it sucks. I'm. I'm still really bad at this. But maybe you and I are wired a certain way where we're like, there could be something there. I'm not even sure, but let's just keep going. So my belief is life is hard. Life is. I don't use the word suffering, but it is tough. And it's supposed to be tough.
- [13:23]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [13:23]
Chris Do
Because if it were easy, it's not worthwhile to pursue, because everyone could do that.
- [13:27]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [13:28]
Chris Do
This I think Seth writes about. Seth Godin writes about. It's like, if something is hard to do, it means that it's scarce, and scarce things are valuable. If everyone was a great writer, if everyone is really clear and they're thinking about how to help other people, what you do would not be worth anything. And so how do we know, though, or maybe we don't know, that that is a worthwhile form of suffering? Because my thing is, give it everything you've got. And when you don't think you got more, give it even more. And maybe you get to that tip of the hill where the rock doesn't feel heavy anymore.
- [14:01]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [14:02]
Chris Do
And feels weightless. And then it pulls you and you don't have to push it so much.
- [14:04]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [14:05]
Chris Do
How do we know we're not just at the tip. And if we just kept at it another month, another year, we would have broken through.
- [14:12]
Mark Manson
Where's the momentum? Does it feel like it's against you, or does it feel like it's for you? If you put three more, like, really focused months into this, do you feel like you're going to be further than you are now, or do you feel like you're going to be in the same spot? If you feel like you're going to be in the same spot, that might be a signal that this isn't the right path for you. Right. Like, you just. You shouldn't be banging your head against the wall for year after year after year. There should be some sort of progress or acceleration in some direction.
- [14:43]
Chris Do
Okay. So there are things that are going to be painful. And I think I saw on your feed recently, like, you're exercising.
- [14:50]
Mark Manson
Yes.
- [14:51]
Chris Do
You lost, I think, 50 pounds.
- [14:53]
Mark Manson
Yeah, about that. Yeah.
- [14:54]
Chris Do
That's a lot of weight.
- [14:55]
Mark Manson
50, 60. Yeah. Yeah.
- [14:56]
Chris Do
And okay, so here's the thing, though. Some people like to exercise. Some people like to be very strict about their diet. Most people I know do not. But they do it because they know the benefit of it. So that's a worthwhile pursuit. Do you love to exercise?
- [15:12]
Mark Manson
Sometimes. Not always.
- [15:14]
Chris Do
Yeah.
- [15:15]
Mark Manson
But I will say this. And I did a podcast episode about kind of my fitness journey, and one of the most important learnings along that path was finding a way to make it fun. Because when I started, I did this thing that most people do, which is like, well, here's the workout plan, here's the diet. I guess I'm just gonna suffer through this, right? Cause this is what you do. This is how it happens. And that'll get you maybe three to six months. It got the first 10 to 15 pounds off, but then you hit a plateau because that's not sustainable. It's just human nature. We don't continually do something that we hate. And so I started slipping and I started messing up, and I started going back to the bad eating habits and skipping workouts and stuff. And so there was a point where I realized I'm like, I need to find a way to make this fun and interesting. Whether that's doing it with other people, whether that's through accountability with a coach, whether that's, like, just gamification of, like, tracking my workouts and trying to set PRs and, like, setting challenges for myself on a monthly basis, which I did all of those things. And they all helped a lot because it made that next workout not feel so much like drudgery. It felt like, okay, well, let's see if I can do this this time or my buddy Dan is gonna come do this with me and we're gonna do it together and it'll be more interesting. So anything that you're gonna have to do for a very, very long period of time and exercise is something you have to do for the rest of your life. You really need to find what you like, whether it's a sport, whether it's running, signing up for marathons, doing CrossFit. Find the thing that you like. And you see this in the research too. It's like just the fact that you did any exercise is like 80% of the benefit. Like the exact exercise you do. The perfect workout, quote unquote, is like the 20% is the cherry on top. So it's just if you want long term sustainability around exercise, just like find the thing that you enjoy doing enough that you could see yourself doing it 20 years from now.
- [17:17]
Chris Do
I want to talk about three things before this thing is over.
- [17:20]
Mark Manson
Okay.
- [17:21]
Chris Do
And before I ask you those things, I want to just complete one question that's been kind of just. I've been trying to finish here, but I'm going to talk to you a little bit about personal branding, about embracing the, the ugly stuff inside of you as part of all of you. I'm going to talk about content creation and how you seem to be going pretty hard on content, on social. And of course, I want to talk a little about business, like how one becomes somebody like you and build a media company around your thoughts and ideas. Okay, so those are the big three.
- [17:49]
Mark Manson
Okay?
- [17:49]
Chris Do
So I asked earlier about your timeline of suffering or pain and your evolution of embracing it. So what I recall is, okay, I played guitar for a while, that didn't work. Fingers are bleeding, it's not going anywhere. And then somewhere along the way, I'm going to write it sucks for a while. And then you're like, hey, I'm pretty good at this. I'm going to keep writing. What are some of the other jumps that you've done?
- [18:10]
Mark Manson
So just to clarify really quick, back in 2007, 2008, I tried to start a number of like e commerce and affiliate marketing businesses. And back then the way to market a new website was to blog. And so blogging was actually just a side effect of like trying to start these e commerce businesses. The e commerce businesses went nowhere. But it turned out I was actually good at the blogging. And so that's kind of how the blogging started. The blog started to blow up probably 2011, 2012, developed a pretty large audience, self published a book, put out some courses, was making a decent living at a certain point. Things went pretty super viral around 2013, 2014, and then that's when the prospects of a book deal started showing up. And that's eventually what led to Subtle Art. What a lot of people don't realize is that the ideas in Subtle Art were actually market tested for like three years before that. Right. It's like almost everything in that book had at least been played with or tested in a blog post somewhere. And I had gotten feedback on what resonated with people and what didn't. I think that's an under discussed reason why that book did so well is that it had that market feedback leading into it. Interesting caveat here, which is that when the book took off to such an extent, I kind of forgot that I was a creator. And I think there was a tacit assumption of like, well, the most successful thing I've ever done is write a book, so I must be an author. So now I should do author stuff. You know, I should go on morning shows and I should do a celebrity book and I should talk to Hollywood producers about screenwriting and like did the whole author thing. And looking back, I actually really didn't like it. There was a lot of speaking in there as well. I didn't enjoy it. And so that was actually one of the only periods that I would actually characterize as like, there was a decent amount of suffering in there because it was like I was doing things. Not because I genuinely love doing it, I was doing it because I thought I should be doing it. But it was a subtle enough should that I wasn't completely aware of it. I was just like, I don't know, my career blew up. This is what you do. Not realizing there was totally a choice. So by 2021 or so, I burnt myself out, took some time off. And during that time off, what I realized is I really miss the Internet stuff. I miss posting online. I miss like getting the audience feedback and seeing what works and what doesn't and looking at analytics and all the creator stuff that we do. So I slowly started doing that again in 2022 and really just fell in love with it again and realized like, oh, this is actually where I'm supposed to be. I should have been here the whole time. But I kind of got deviated for a number of years there. And so I would say for a couple years some of it was just catching up because as the creator space evolved and grew so much since I kind of left it in 2016. So there was a couple years of just catching up. It's like, okay, I need to get on, you know, we need to start doing video, we need to launch a podcast, we need to start posting short form on Insta, you know, doing Instagram reels and get on TikTok and all this stuff. And like, it was all new, it was all stuff that I had like fallen way behind on. And so it was just this probably two years of catching up. And then I feel like just now, just like the last six months, it's kind of like, okay, now we can take the business into its next phase. Feels like we're doing everything at least competently now. Now how do we find the thing that we're going to be excellent at and move into the future with that? So that's kind of where I'm at with my creator business.
- [21:54]
Chris Do
So is that about a six or seven year detour into the author thing? Did you say 2014, then 2021, you find your way back to social and content?
- [22:02]
Mark Manson
About five years.
- [22:03]
Chris Do
Five years, yeah. Okay.
- [22:04]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [22:04]
Chris Do
It's a normal, natural reaction that what you had. It was like, the universe is telling me, man, I'm really good at writing books. It'll happen.
- [22:10]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [22:11]
Chris Do
And so it'd be pretty safe to assume, like, maybe this is what I'm supposed to doing. Everything took me to this point and you pursued that and you didn't enjoy it. You didn't know if this is what you're supposed to be doing, but you tried that. When did you know, like, that's it, I'm going to go back to this other thing I love so much.
- [22:26]
Mark Manson
It was taking that time off, honestly, because in the author side of my career, the opportunities were incredible. I mean, it's literally the sort of stuff that any author or aspiring author, like, dreams of having happened to them. And it was happening to me and it just felt stressful, it felt overwhelming. And that's part of where I got so unhealthy. Right. I gained a ton of weight. I was like really out of shape, had a lot of bad habits, drinking too much. And I think a lot of it was because of that. It was just because I was not doing what I should have been doing. But again, it's when the stuff you're doing is what everybody in your industry wishes they were doing, it's hard to stop and tell yourself, ask yourself, maybe I shouldn't be doing this. So it wasn't until I really kind of Burned myself out. And I took six months off. The first six months of 2022, I just took off because I was just like. The last book that I was working on came out. I had just finished shooting a movie that I was working on. And I was like. It was the first time that I ever. My plate kind of opened up and I was like, before I load it up with the next batch of stuff, let me just take a few months. And that few months turned into six. And it was during that six months that I was just like, what am I doing? Like, I don't. I kind of did an inventory and I was like, what is the stuff that money is no object. Let's pretend I become a billionaire tomorrow. What's the stuff that I would still do anyway? And when I did that list, it was exactly what you just said. It was like, well, I'd probably write blog articles and post on social media. Like, that's it, you know? And so then that became the question of like, well, why am I not doing that? Why am I doing all this other stuff?
- [24:15]
Chris Do
So isn't it weird how sometimes the hardest answer is the most simple one that's right in front of you, but you just don't see it for whatever.
- [24:21]
Mark Manson
Reason, you feel like an idiot. Honestly, it was right here in front of my nose for five years, and I was looking over here, you know, there's all the shiny, sexy stuff is over here, you know. Yeah.
- [24:35]
Chris Do
I really want to talk to you about business. I want to talk about content in your pursuit, just as two geeks trying to make content. Talk about that. But there's something I would love for you to speak about, which is like, I think you. You. You kind of hinted at it before, which is most people post on social to show you, like, the very best of what they're doing. But most people don't get to see that because the algorithm says the best of the best is what we're going to show you. It's the 1% of the 1%. Now you're going to see that. I kind of get sick to my stomach thinking everyone lives such a curated life now. And we all do to a degree. The Persona shows up to be accepted, to be loved, because no one wants to be hated. I get that. What is your take on all this? Like, who are you supposed to be in this life? How do we present ourselves? Because I think there's something you're talking about which really resonates with me.
- [25:18]
Mark Manson
Honestly, my take on social media these days is that 10 years ago, it used to be mostly social, and I think now it's just mostly media. And I think maybe the public perception hasn't caught up with that yet. But everything is extremely curated. And I don't know if you've had this experience, but it's like, now that I've done a fair amount of video production myself, there's so many videos that will pop up on my feed that look like they're spontaneous. And I can tell that they were staged. I can tell that there was a script that's probably an actor, even when it's on the street, even when it looks, you know, like, completely spontaneous. Whatever. It's like that's clearly script that was clearly staged. I honestly, I approach social media that way now. I don't see it as. It's not a dishonest expression of myself. It's not like I'm not showing you what I ate for breakfast or talking about the cool Netflix show I watched last week. Like, that's 2010 stuff like the 2020s. Now it's media. My team and I were sitting down. We're like, really strategically thinking, like, what is the best content we can put together for our audience and put it up and that people get something out of it and that we can grow the audience. And it's the same exact conversations that a TV studio has, that a movie studio has, that a book publisher has. So I try to be very transparent about that because I think the users need to understand that.
- [26:42]
Chris Do
Do you guys sit around and brainstorm what we think are going to be hits and make that, or what is your creative process like?
- [26:49]
Mark Manson
I would say the container of the creativity is kind of analytics and results driven. Right. So we'll look at, say, the previous month's social content, and we'll look at what did best and what did worst, and we'll kind of discuss, like, what was good about it, what was bad, what people seem to like, what they don't. And what I'll pull from it is just some general principles of structuring the script this way. People seem to like that it seems to resonate. Or talking in this way seems to land for people, it's more engaging or whatever. And so I'll just kind of take those principles as, like, let's try to make something around those principles. Like, those are the lines that I need to color inside of. But then that coloring is whatever I want it to be. Like, that's where the creativity. That's like, where the personal satisfaction is, is like, you gave me the boundaries in which to play. Now I'm going to go play however I want to play. It's time for a quick break, but we'll be right back.
- [27:56]
Chris Do
Enjoying the conversation you're listening to right now. You're going to love what we have for you inside the Future Pro membership. From live group calls with myself and vetted guests at experts to over 600 hours of pro exclusive trainings and monthly networking, you'll have everything you need to fast track your growth. Check it out@future.com Pro.
- [28:18]
Mark Manson
And Rebecca, welcome back to our conversation.
- [28:22]
Chris Do
You're obviously very good at writing books. Surprisingly, you're also really good on Instagram and I hate you because you're also good on YouTube. So somebody is like, this is not fair.
- [28:33]
Mark Manson
That's not fair.
- [28:34]
Chris Do
You shouldn't be good at all these things. And so what are the biggest things that you've learned in writing and creating content that connects with so many people? Can you distill that down to maybe a couple of principles?
- [28:47]
Mark Manson
Well, I think a lot of that success is that cross medium success actually comes from just really understanding my audience on a very deep level. Like I really understand the personal development audience and kind of what they're looking for and what they like. It's funny because I've done some experiments to get into other formats and get into other styles and be a little bit creatively crazy and do something completely new. And a lot of it hasn't really landed. And I think a lot of that is because really it's just about understanding what people are looking for when they come to somebody like me. And so whether it's a two sentence Instagram photo or quote on an Instagram photo, or it's a 10 minute YouTube video, or it's a newsletter or a 60 minute podcast, I just try to be very, I'm very cognizant of like, okay, who are the people who listen to this or watch this? What are they looking for? If they're on this platform, what's the best way I can provide value to them and meet them where they are and not kind of obsessed about my genius or what I want to do or what the world needs to see from me. It's just like being very practical about it. Most people who come to my content, they are suffering in some shape or form and they're looking for help and they're looking for advice and they're looking for inspiration. And so those are all very emotional things. And so when you kind of understand how to speak to those emotions or what sort of Ideas are useful for people in certain places. They translate well across platforms.
- [30:21]
Chris Do
How would you describe your own tone of voice when you're talking or writing to them? Because your titles are pretty bombastic. Just little art of not giving an F and everything is F'd. It's like there's a lot of F's in here.
- [30:32]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [30:33]
Chris Do
But if people are suffering and they need help and they're in a dark place, like maybe they're miserable.
- [30:38]
Mark Manson
Right.
- [30:38]
Chris Do
And you're going to help them, how would you describe your own tone of voice when you're writing?
- [30:43]
Mark Manson
So part of it is that you know the tone of my writing and my content. I mean, hopefully you agree with this is a reflection of just kind of who my personality. Like, it's just how I talk, it's how I show up in person. So that's a piece of it. Like it is authentic to who I am. But the other piece of it that I found is that when somebody's really struggling or suffering in some way, irreverence and humor can be liberating to a certain extent. You know, it's like if somebody's going through something tough and you can kind of make them laugh about it, like that's actually very therapeutic. And I do think there's something to the attitude and the vulgarity, to be honest, that people find a little bit empowering. It does appeal to a lot of people in those states. Like it is a certain type of person. Like, I'm not everybody's cup of tea. But for the right personality, like it lands pretty well.
- [31:36]
Chris Do
I don't swear, never have. I'm kind of straight edged that way. But I think the right F bomb, strategically placed, changes the whole meaning of what you're going to say. And so sometimes, like, maybe I need to break my own rule. Because when used. Well, yes, when use with intention.
- [31:52]
Mark Manson
Absolutely.
- [31:53]
Chris Do
It'll just completely make that ten times funnier.
- [31:57]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [31:57]
Chris Do
Or more profound.
- [31:59]
Mark Manson
Absolutely.
- [31:59]
Chris Do
Right.
- [32:00]
Mark Manson
It's interesting because I've been criticized so much for my profanity over the years that I actually at one point I did research into what profanity is and why it exists. And it's interesting because profanity exists in each language. First of all, it shifts. It's arbitrary. The words that are offensive today were normal 100 years ago, and the words that were offensive 100 years ago are normal today. But what's interesting is that the whole point of profanity is that it calls attention to something, narrows people's focus on a certain idea or concept. And I Think in the space of profanity, personal development like that can be extremely useful. It's kind of like grabbing somebody by the shirt collars and be like, pay attention. This is important. And doing it in a way that can be enjoyable or relieving. I always laugh when people. I get emails, it's usually from boomers, like, who are. Who are, like, you know, if you're.
- [32:53]
Chris Do
A girl, don't look at me when you say that.
- [32:57]
Mark Manson
I'll get these emails of like, you know, if you'd be smart if you didn't use the F bomb so much. I just, I kind of shake my head. I'm like, right, There's a method to the madness.
- [33:06]
Chris Do
Because at a certain age, when you use an F bomb, it's. It sounds like you're not well educated. Yes, that clear. Is not the case. Okay, so I wrote down one tip. Understand your audience. What else you got?
- [33:19]
Mark Manson
Be willing to experiment. I do think one thing that I do very well is I'm. I'm willing to kind of fall on my face, like, try something and have it just bomb terribly. And, like, I don't lose sleep over it. I think a lot of creators do lose sleep over it. Like, they're. I think a lot of creators, when they find the thing that works, they're afraid to deviate from that. And I not only believe very strongly in experimenting and trying different formats and new things, and if you have an oddball idea, like, whatever, let's take a shot. But I enjoy it as well, and I think that part of that lends itself to my longevity. Because if you stay with the same thing, sure, it might work this year, it might work next year, but in five years, the trends are going to change. The platforms are going to change, the algorithms are going to change. 100 people are going to copy you, so it's not going to work anymore. You have to always be moving to stay in the same place in this industry. And I think that's something that I'm good at.
- [34:13]
Chris Do
I think you have a skill at phrasing things a certain way, that it reads well, and it's like a mind warmer. It burrows into your brain. You think about it. And then I read other people who are trying to do things like that. And clearly, writing is not their gift in life. Is there anything that you can say, like, if you just looked at it this way, like Mark's secret recipe and how, you know a line is good?
- [34:34]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [34:35]
Chris Do
Especially for Instagram, where it's just like a sentence.
- [34:37]
Mark Manson
It's funny because you know, Instagram or Twitter, you know, like, those single sentence posts many times are like, much harder than say, a newsletter. Right? Because it's. You're compressing so much value and information into like six words. This is going to be annoying. But practice, experience, there's a lot of writers who excel at that. And I don't mean online writing. Like, go back and read literary writers who are famous. Go read Hemingway. Hemingway was famous for being able to pack like paragraphs of meaning into six words. That's one thing I did early in my career that I think paid off a lot is like, when I decided writing's my thing, this is what I'm going to do. I, I didn't go read other blogs. I bought Tolstoy's books, I bought Hemingway's books, I bought Fitzgerald. Like, I started reading all the canon and trying to understand, like, what made this author a great author. I went and bought all the self help books all the way. Going back to the early 20th century. As man think of was the bestselling book in 1913, I read it and asked myself, what made this a bestselling self help book? Right. So it's like taking the craft very seriously. Even though you're just posting quotes on Instagram. I don't see many creators doing that, like, taking themselves seriously as artists in that way. They're like, well, I'm not making Hollywood films, so why would I go watch Coppola stuff? It's like, no, you're a filmmaker. Fuck that, it's TikTok. But you're still making. It's video production. Right. So you should at least understand the principles of, like, what makes something good doesn't mean you need to make the Godfather. It just means that you should understand, like, what makes a good scene a good scene.
- [36:13]
Chris Do
Now, I thought you were going to say you need to be a correct contrarian. I was queuing you up for that.
- [36:20]
Mark Manson
Oh.
- [36:20]
Chris Do
But I came across that video. I think it was on YouTube. I'm like, now here's Mark again. God dang it. What is he talking about? This 1% thing. A correct contrarian. I love that, by the way. So my feeling. And maybe it's. Maybe you have a different POV on this. Is that pretty much everything that needs to be said has been said by somebody already.
- [36:39]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [36:39]
Chris Do
Multiple times now. So we're living in this age of, of like an abundance of information. The only reason why I think someone's going to listen to you or somebody else is because you have a point of view on this that is going to be different. Because if you're going to say the same thing that everybody else is saying, why bother saying they've already said it?
- [36:57]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [36:57]
Chris Do
They have a bigger audience than you, so you have to figure out where you are different.
- [37:01]
Mark Manson
Yes.
- [37:01]
Chris Do
And when I read your things, I'm like, that's Mark pushing that a little bit there. Or maybe not a little bit. A lot.
- [37:07]
Mark Manson
So this kind of gets into the brand stuff, Right. Like, differentiation is just so it's every. Especially in this day and age, I feel like it's everything. It's like really understanding how are you going to stand out, how are you going to be different? And I think where people struggle with this, and I include myself in this too, is that, like, when you decide how you're going to be different from the other people in your space, in a sense, you're choosing what audience you're going to lose. Because, like, the nature of differentiation is. Is you're going to be loved by this group of people over here, but then all these people over here, they're going to roll their eyes and think you're kind of lame. And that doesn't feel good. So it's a tough thing to think about and accept. But I think it's like you said, with the abundance of information and the abundance of content, that is, in my opinion, more important than ever these days.
- [37:57]
Chris Do
What are you doing actively to be different other than the thoughts that you have? Are you producing your videos differently? Are you editing them differently? Is there anything else that you're doing?
- [38:06]
Mark Manson
I think on the video front, we're not. And that's actually that kind of comes back into. Been just trying to catch up for a few years. I think just now we're starting to have those conversations of, like, how can we be better? How can we elevate these? How can we stand out in a way that's, like, very positive? I think in writing, you touched on a. A few of them. I think the things that have really made me stand out over the years is one is the tone. It's the humor, the irreverence, the silliness, the pop culture references. One of it is the brevity, the compression, like getting very deep philosophical ideas into a couple sentences that are very memorable. I tend to be very good at that. So that's been my differentiator on the writing front. But, yeah, on the video and the podcast front, it's been more difficult. And that's actually this question of differentiation, of how are we going to be different? Like, in my Space. There's a million self help podcasts that they all interview the exact same authors. And we're interviewing those authors. And so it's been this long conversation on my team of like, we got to stop interviewing the same authors, everybody else, like, we've got to find something else. Like we have to, we have to move into a new territory in some way. So we're still working on that.
- [39:20]
Chris Do
I found the hot ones video YouTube podcasting super interesting because they added just element of just increasing levels of heat as you're talking. And even if you don't have an interesting person in front of you, just how they respond to the hot sauce.
- [39:36]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [39:36]
Chris Do
Is its own form of entertainment. And so that was kind of a unique approach to that.
- [39:40]
Mark Manson
Brilliant.
- [39:40]
Chris Do
Yeah. And then I think those. Did you see that was sold for like $40 million or something like that?
- [39:45]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [39:45]
Chris Do
Yeah.
- [39:46]
Mark Manson
It's crazy.
- [39:46]
Chris Do
Yeah. Super smart.
- [39:48]
Mark Manson
It is. And it's one of those things that when you see it, it seems obvious. But I. And I think that's true of most of. I mean, I think that's true of most brilliant creative work is it seems obvious once you see it. But then of course it's impossible to come up with. That's some of the central questions that we're working with right now.
- [40:05]
Chris Do
A great way to sell his hot sauce too, by the way. Yeah, it was like we were distracted by it, but it was like a brand play all along. Just, it was a gigantic marketing video.
- [40:15]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [40:16]
Chris Do
Who knew?
- [40:17]
Mark Manson
Who knew?
- [40:18]
Chris Do
Dirty, but very effective. Okay. We're in your studio and it's surprising me to walk into the studio and see the level of production, the lights and the gear that you have here. Clearly you're making an investment. It's not just this studio. There's another one that you're building out.
- [40:32]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [40:32]
Chris Do
So you're taking this very seriously. More so than any other author I've seen. Many times they. You barely see them on a zoom call. It's like what I think your lens is. You got a fingerprint on it or something. Why are you making this investment? What is this saying about where you're heading in the next couple of years?
- [40:49]
Mark Manson
I am extremely bullish just on online media in general. I think probably in the next 10 to 20 years, online media will just be media. And I think people like you and me, like our businesses right now, are probably early stage media companies. So I have high conviction in that. And I would rather over invest than underinvest on that thesis. Video production, YouTube, podcasts, video content in general. Is like, what I find most interesting at the moment. And it's also kind of what works best at the moment in the online environment. I'd rather go overkill than not do enough.
- [41:32]
Chris Do
Are you involved in picking out the titles and the thumbnails in your own videos?
- [41:37]
Mark Manson
Yeah, for better or worse. Sometimes I wish I wasn't. Well, well, for.
- [41:43]
Chris Do
For people who don't understand this, your title and your thumbnail is going to be the 80% of the success of the video. You can take a bomb piece of content, screw it up with the title and the thumbnail, and get nothing. Yeah, how do I know this? Because if you have a sleeper and you. You really believe it's good, keep testing thumbnails and titles and eventually you'll see it go like that.
- [42:02]
Mark Manson
Yeah, titles, thumbnails, and first lines of scripts. Like, it's just. I probably should touch all of them and I should probably approve all of them. They're too important and they. They move the needle too much. Sometimes I wish I could just outsource some of that stuff and not have to worry about it. But it's also super important for the brand because it is the first thing people see so often.
- [42:25]
Chris Do
Okay, final question for you. What business are you in, Mark, can you zoom out and tell us, like, what is the business that you're in? And maybe we can poke around there a little bit.
- [42:35]
Mark Manson
So back in the peak blog days, 2015, 2016, I launched a membership to my website. This is basically substack. Before substack, we built it ourselves. We still run it on our own server and everything, but basically in the members area, there's six online courses, there's probably 25, 30 exclusive articles, there's a bunch of bonuses, some audios, some old webinars, stuff like that. And so it's just a simple monthly subscription to kind of unlock all of the Mark Manson content. That model, I would say, peaked probably 2021. It was very successful for us. It was great. It was like 80% of the content's free. And then for the superfans who love my content, they can get 20% more for, you know, whatever, 10 bucks, 9.99amonth or whatever, since everything is now native on the social platforms itself. Like, nobody clicks through the websites anymore. Like, that model's kind of dead. It's been dying a very slow death. And so we've been just slowly replacing that with brand deals and sponsorships. So on the newsletter, podcast, and YouTube channel, and then there's the usual speaking events, live appearances, there's book royalties. I also have a self published book from 13 years ago that still does well. So yeah, that's the overall business. It's kind of a hodgepodge of monetization.
- [43:59]
Chris Do
Have you looked into doing premium memberships on Instagram and on YouTube?
- [44:04]
Mark Manson
I have two things I don't like about it. One is the cut that they take is extremely high. I think YouTube takes 30% or something.
- [44:13]
Chris Do
Something like that.
- [44:14]
Mark Manson
Yeah. Which is absurd. It's like absolutely absurd because we run everything natively on my own website. All we have to pay is the stripe processing fee which is 2.2%. So it is a big difference. And when you're doing six, seven figures of revenue like that adds up, that becomes tens of thousands of dollars over a long period of time. In case of YouTube, that would be hundreds of thousands of dollars. The other thing I don't like is, is that you're just limited in the content you can give. Right. So YouTube, you upload videos for your members and nobody else can't really do a whole lot else as far as I understand. Instagram kind of same thing. And so there's just a lack of flexibility there.
- [44:53]
Chris Do
It's still early days for us, but I'm always excited when platforms figure out how to reward us for making content. And when they launch new features, they will do everything to support you because they obviously don't want it to fail.
- [45:06]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [45:07]
Chris Do
So it's early days for us when we're experimenting with YouTube Premium memberships. And so we have, I think we were over a thousand people now it should be a lot higher than that, but I haven't really pushed it as hard. I'll report back to you.
- [45:17]
Mark Manson
If it's working, let me know.
- [45:18]
Chris Do
But some of those people pay us a dollar, some people pay us 15. Those are the two tiers. The ones who pay us a dollar are just happy to support us and they get nothing else except for little badges as their supporter.
- [45:28]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [45:28]
Chris Do
The ones who pay us 15 bucks get content that I don't know where else to release these long six hour workshop. And like I don't want to turn into a course. It's too much work.
- [45:37]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [45:37]
Chris Do
Too much responsibility. So I'll leave it here. Or there's really kind of weird BTS stuff that only a super fan would want to watch would probably hurt our main channel.
- [45:45]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [45:45]
Chris Do
So you put it there and they get a kick out of it. So eventually when this becomes thousands or tens of thousands of people, it's very viable now even if I have to pay them the 30 or 40% that they take on top of that.
- [45:57]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [45:57]
Chris Do
So what do you think you're. Your next move will be then? Because you're like, you have this membership that you say started 2014-15 and it's peaked. Is it more brand deals, you think, or is it something else?
- [46:10]
Mark Manson
No, I'm. I'd actually like to get away from brand deals, I think, like everybody else. So we're relaunching the membership community this year, actually just in a few months. And we're actually going to relaunch it along with the podcast. So we're relaunching the podcast in a new format differentiation, and then we're relaunching my membership community off the back of that and it will kind of live off the back of the podcast. We're going to be using like one of these community platforms. So it'll be discussion forums and I can show up and get involved and do live webinars and stuff. So we'll be announcing that stuff. I don't know when this is going to come out, but probably within a month or two of this coming out.
- [46:51]
Chris Do
Okay.
- [46:52]
Mark Manson
And that's on the immediate horizon, kind of that repositioning the podcast and then relaunching the backend membership, that should free us up from having to do so many brand deals. We'll probably replace a certain percentage of the brand deals with just promotions for the membership. Right. And then the other thing I'm working on, it's still pretty early days, but I think there's a lot of potential applications of AI and in the mental health space and the personal development space, you can kind of imagine like an AI coach who can like, coach you through whatever problem you're going through or help you apply certain principles from like a book or a school of thought to like, whatever your situation is. So currently working with somebody to build a business around that. But that's still probably a year away. I would guess so, but really excited about that. That's fun. That's like fun new stuff.
- [47:44]
Chris Do
So the new community will be on a different platform or the same one and just upgraded.
- [47:48]
Mark Manson
Different one.
- [47:49]
Chris Do
Different one. Are using one of those commercial ones.
- [47:52]
Mark Manson
Yeah, one of the. One of the big white label.
- [47:54]
Chris Do
Okay.
- [47:55]
Mark Manson
Yeah. The. We're using Mighty Networks.
- [47:58]
Chris Do
So by the time you're watching this video, we'll put the description and link below. If you're curious about this platform, what is it called?
- [48:05]
Mark Manson
The new community? It's going to be called A Thousand Small Wins.
- [48:07]
Chris Do
A Thousand Small Wins. We'll put that in the link, they're going to get access to exclusive courses, content, posts, articles, and some interactive things that you may or may not be doing. Right?
- [48:17]
Mark Manson
Yes.
- [48:18]
Chris Do
Kind of vague and ambiguous, but I like that it's a non committal mark.
- [48:23]
Mark Manson
I mean, it's not long. I don't have the sales pitch yet because it's not launched yet. So it's. Well, I'll come back to you with the sales pitch in a month and.
- [48:31]
Chris Do
Some kind of AI coach, mentor, something in the future.
- [48:36]
Mark Manson
Yes.
- [48:37]
Chris Do
Okay, sounds wonderful. So that'll be trained on the way that you think and how you see the world. Is that the idea or no?
- [48:42]
Mark Manson
Initially, yes. But actually what we're really excited about doing is there's just so much psychological literature on everything that's like publicly available. Right. But I think the current foundational models, you know, like ChatGPT and Claude and everything, like, they're not trained on it, they're not trained on therapy modalities and therapy transcripts and stuff like that. So it's like, I think there's a big opportunity of if you can kind of train a model on all that stuff, like feed all that data and research into it and then give it my skill set, which is like knowing how to communicate with somebody who's struggling or going through something in their life and like meet them where they are, you can kind of combine those two things. Like you can get something very powerful.
- [49:25]
Chris Do
I look forward to seeing what you do. We're investing heavily time, resources, energy towards figuring out how to use AI in every facet of what we do in our business, including creating a doppelganger of myself and allowing that person to coach. Because obviously I want to help as many people as possible. Time constraints, resources, energy level, I can't do that's what. We've done a pretty good job so far.
- [49:45]
Mark Manson
Oh yeah?
- [49:46]
Chris Do
Yeah. It's called Dobot. So people can talk to dobot and people have emotional experiences with. Yeah, the AI version of what it is that I believe in. So I think there's some promise there. It's not perfect like you say, but I'm not waiting for perfect to start. Yeah, let's get going. Right. Mark, it's been a real pleasure. I've been wanting to have this conversation with you a really long time. It was very serendipitous when Priestley is like, oh, hey, you want to go and hang out with Mark Manson? I'm like, yeah. And then I meet you, I'm like, okay, this is cool.
- [50:14]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [50:14]
Chris Do
And I'll just Admit this because I'm petty. I'll just admit it. I don't want to like you. When I went to your YouTube channel. God dang it. What is he. Just leave some things alone?
- [50:26]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [50:26]
Chris Do
And then I watched him, like, this guy's smart. He's got it. His delivery is impeccable. And look at his view count. God, I just don't want to like you. I hate to admit it, but you're kind of a likable guy.
- [50:36]
Mark Manson
I'm. I'm sure I'll.
- [50:37]
Chris Do
That's what Jess said. Kind of likable.
- [50:39]
Mark Manson
Kind of likable. She said I'm kind of likable. Yeah. I'm sure I'll find something to mess.
- [50:44]
Chris Do
It up or what?
- [50:45]
Mark Manson
Yeah, yeah. Give me a little more time. I'm sure. I'm sure I'll ruin it somehow.
- [50:49]
Chris Do
You'll be a scandal.
- [50:51]
Mark Manson
It's gonna. You'll be like, I knew he was an.
- [50:53]
Chris Do
Yeah, no, there was a. This whole thing was a Ponzi scheme, guys. This whole book, the whole thing was all facing side.
- [50:59]
Mark Manson
Yeah.
- [51:00]
Chris Do
Yeah. Well. Well, thanks for doing this. I had a good time. I hope you did, too.
- [51:03]
Mark Manson
Yeah, man. Thanks for coming out. My name is Mark Manson, and you are listening to the Future. Thanks for joining us. If you haven't already, subscribe to our show on your favorite podcasting app and get new insightful episodes from us every week. The Future Podcast is hosted by Chris do and produced and edited by Rich Cardona Media. Thank you to Adam Sanborn for our intro music. If you enjoyed this episode, then do us a favor by reviewing and rating our show on Apple Podcasts. It will help us grow the show and make future episodes that much better. If you'd like to support the show and invest in yourself while you're at it, visit the TV and you'll find video courses, digital products, and a bunch of helpful resources about design and the creative business. Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next time.