A (2:27)

Oh, small companies. You never heard of small companies?

B (2:29)

Yeah, small businesses.

A (2:30)

Hold on. I mean, people are listening to this. Like, wait a minute. When you said you started over, pretty low on the totem pole. That's not so small and on the low on the totem pole. How does one get accounts like this?

B (2:42)

Yeah, no, I meant, like, I was a senior copywriter at an agency, and I couldn't. Like, I was pretty low on the totem pole list. And, like, I never managed anybody, so I was just like, a writer. And then it's an absurd thought for, like, a copywriter to have and be like, I'm going to walk out of this agency and I'm going to start one. And I think at that time, people get afraid by, like, the people laughing at you. But I was laughing at myself, like, walking out with my box, you know, like, everybody's laughing at me like, this guy's going to fucking start an agency. And I was like, yeah, you know, I'm just as weirded out by the concept, too. But I think if you're not afraid of that moment when you're just like, everybody's laughing with me. Let's just laugh with it. Let's see what happens. That's how it started. I was just like, if this goes wrong, I'll start selling. Like, I had already talked to weed delivery guys to see what their job was. Like, I talked to a guy at a bar to see if I could work there. I talked to an agency guy to see if he would give me freelance work. Like, I had figured out the backup plan of, like, oh, this doesn't work out. I'll go sell weed or something.

A (3:40)

This is pretty unusual because most founders have a sense of delusion, of grandeur, and how they're going to change the world. There's an ego at play. And you're the exact opposite. Where, man, I'm not managing anybody now. I know what you're talking about because I've worked in an agency before. If you're not like, group creative director, ecd, it's like you're kind of the guy doing the work. You're on the front line writing the words or managing the ads yourself. Now you start. You're like, it may not work. I don't even know who I am, but I got no opportunities moving forward, so I'm going to create my own. And what is in your life? That even despite having that. That mindset, that you have the courage to go out and start anyways.

B (4:21)

I think that, like, there's a line that I keep telling people. It's like, take the leap. The ground is bouncy. You know that scene in the Matrix where he, like, take. Jumps off a building and then he lands in it? The ground is bouncy. I think that's true for most of life. I think people work into a career and say, I'm a senior copywriter at the agency in the world. Like, I wouldn't go back. And I think you. It's kind of a mistake because you're. You have this, like, path figured out. And I look for these things I called motorcycles, which is like, sometimes I hit a choice. Somebody calls me and says, do you want to do this? And it's definitely not part of the plan, but it's fast and it's dangerous. But it'll be fun. It'll be a fun part to the story. I can see how working at my company right now looks for three months and looks like six months and. And this other way, if I start this agency, I have no idea what my life will look like. And that kind of excites me because it becomes, like, more interesting. And I think people are afraid of that failure. But with that failure, you have become more interesting now. So you are more employable, more datable, more whatever. And it's not on a resume, right? Like, you just generally become interesting because you. Somebody at a bar is like, you know, one time I try to get this thing from the mayor. And you're like, yeah, I've tried to start a business one. And I went to the park police once and I got caught with this thing, you know, just like, you have just more an interesting story to tell. So at that time, it just felt like, I have no idea what's down this path. But it's fun. And I know that if all fails, I can go do this. Because for a long time when I was in, I moved to America by myself. So I had like, a very big fear in New York is like, you know, you see homeless people everywhere. It's like a big fear. Like, you're always counting, like, if I get fired, two weeks out, I'm out. I have to go back home. And home is. I don't want to go back home. I really enjoy being here. But once you make that, like, okay, I could sell weed. I talked to the weed guy and I talked to the bar guy. I could be a bartender there. And this guy said he'd give me A freelance assignment. Then you're like, all right, let's. What's the worst that could happen? And I was lucky because I kind of started with a client. I did all that legwork before quitting.

A (6:25)

Right, the smart work.

B (6:27)

Yeah. So I made the company, and the agency had made like, I think $60,000, which was like, I was only making $85,000. So I was like, this is easy. And I was like, this is like a year salary. I figured out. And halfway through, I did run out of money and I went and freelance. I want to go back to, like, what you're saying is like, a lot of people start with like, I'm going to change the world, and this is my five year plan and all that stuff. I want to introduce another kind of entrepreneurship, which is kind of like throwing a paper in a. You know that game where you throw the, like, little ball of paper in a wastebasket and then you make it and then you move it forward and then you throw it again and then you make it and you move forward. That's how I would describe what I'm doing. I just, like, said like, okay, well, maybe trying an agency would be good. And I threw that ball and I was just like, okay, now what do I want to try? And let's try something else. And if you fail, you continue to try to make it. And once you make that basket, you're like, okay, what other basket do I want to just, like, fuck with before I die?

A (7:23)

I love this mindset and the mentality that you have. There's a lot to learn and you do it in such a fun way. So already we're like less than five minutes into the episode. He's dropping a bar. Take the leap. The ground is bouncy. You fear death, but it's actually a lot safer than you think. And setting small goals and just hitting them. So if I got this correct, you were talking to a client and they're paying the agency something like 60K, you're like, well, if they. If they take me on and they're my first client, I got kind of a salary going anyway, so we're kind of good. Was that the first basket?

B (7:54)

Yeah. Plus we got the weed guy and we got the bartender guy. That's quite literally how I think you create your own security in your head. So if you're like, I'm gonna run out of money, that's just a voice in your head. And I grew up, like, I had to wake up every other hour and turn the AC off, and my mom and My sister and I used to stay in the same room and we used to like, time the AC so we wouldn't spend too much money on electricity bills in Pakistan. I'm saying that shit is like drilled into my head. But I think when you make the math on, like, okay, well, it's enough to live off of. And I don't like, we didn't like anything fancy at that point. I was in a studio apartment in Chinatown. I'm like, okay, so when I run out of money, is there a way to make more? And if that answer is yes, the weed guy, the bartender, whatever, then yeah, let's try it. What's the worst that could happen?

A (8:36)

There's so many parts I can relate to in this story and I'm sure many of our audience can too, which is you came from pretty humble beginnings and you're like, you know, I can make it work. If I can do 60k a year and then do a bartending thing or deliver or sell weed or whatever, it's not going to be a comfortable life, but I can survive. And I think that's the problem sometimes with kids or people who come from affluent backgrounds. They can't envision that. They can't process that. If it's not a four star hotel or whatever, it's like, oh, I can't deal. And that's the problem. It's why a lot of times there's that expression, you know, hard times create good men and good men create easy times. And that's the thing. You come from hard times and so you have that resolve and you're like, I'm okay if it doesn't work, I'll figure it out.

B (9:22)

I just think your life can't be beneath you. I think people are too good for the life that they're living and they want another one. I have this really nice office. A dog peed the other day. I don't know who this dog was. I don't know. I don't care. I started cleaning and somebody's like, oh my God, you should be the one cleaning. And I was like, why not? It's his on the floor. I'll clean it. I don't think you can be above your life is what I'm saying. Like, I told that to my girlfriend when we met and I was like, I have a lot right now. I plan to lose it all. I want you in for the. Like, we are in a shack in Thailand and I'm like, babe, I promise you I will bring money today. I'm going to Try, because I think that's how I want to live. Because at the end of this thing, the only end to this video game is the end to this video game.

A (10:05)

Let's get into the first point, which is finding your interesting as a person, company or brand. Please expand on this. What does that mean?

B (10:12)

This kind of work works for companies, but it also works for normal people, right? So what we do is we go into companies. Let's say we're going into. I'm going to make up a brand that we don't. Adidas, right? We go into Adidas and say, what makes you cool? What is like so cool about you? I think normal when you're working in advertising agency, you're inventing fiction, but there is also something cool about that company and we draw that out and then we try to make that the belief of the company and then that's how their communication works. So I'm trained in that thing where I can do that for companies, but you can do that for yourself as well. You can constantly try to find what's so interesting about you by paying attention to the things that you're interested in. You talked about that in your personal branding episode where you're like, I'm interested in fashion. So I'm starting to see that in right now. So the time that my shit catches up, I'm in. I think burnout is not like, I'm working too hard, I'm working too little. It's almost like you are not aligned to the person that you are today, which is like shooting a moving target from a moving car. Because you're changing and you're trying to nail that thing where you're like, I can be myself. I just started getting into country music, dude, like, out of nowhere. Like, I never had listened to it. Came out of nowhere and it hit me and I was just like, I like this now. And that subsequently changed me. And I went into that country music and then I started writing country music. And then I was just like, it's now like, if you had an AI capture of me one month ago, it's already different. You're never gonna catch me as me. And I think your misalignment comes from you not aligning with like, these are the things I like now, and these are the things I don't like. I didn't like being at an agency more so, and I didn't like doing that kind of work, so I left and I was like, okay, I'm going to do these things. So it's finding, like, what you're interested in is definitely the thing that makes you interesting.

A (12:09)

Here's the thing. You're a inherently pretty interesting guy in a little while, a little carefree and just kind of. I mean, most people listening to this are going to say he's pretty agile. I like this guy. He's pretty fun. He's got a good sense of himself, doesn't take himself too seriously. But the thing is, most people think I'm not interesting mo they say this all the time. I'm really boring. So my question to you is, is that such a thing or people haven't found a way to find what's interesting about them yet? What do you think?

B (12:38)

Oh, no, both those things. You might find me interesting today. Well, you might not find me interesting 5 years ago or 10 years ago, 15 years ago. I think I started off as like a pretty uninteresting guy and I still don't find myself interesting. I find things interesting, I think look like the country music example. Like today, if something pops up into my head and I chase it. And now I'm definitely like, if you know a hundred guys who started an advertising agency, now I'm the guy who has country. And then now if I get into like creating agents and that's my jam and I love it and I can do it till 2am Now I'm the country guy who can make agents. You just kind of like add more folds to the origami to be interesting. And I think the interesting comes from what interests you. And also, by the way, I give you the example of companies. Companies are coming to us and saying, make us more interesting. They're doing that because they want a share of somebody's interest. What is marketing? You get, please get other people interested in my product. How do you get anybody interested in your product? I think you advertising is long been like, drill it into somebody's head and try to do that. But this chance meeting me and you, you're pretty interesting. Like, how do we find each other? Because I was doing something interesting you saw online or you were doing something interesting that I saw online. So now this game of like, you get work if you're interesting. You get work as a company if you're interesting, and you get love if you're interesting. So your profile is somebody's watching your profile on Tinder or whatever. And to do that, it's not like posing for a picture on a jet that you don't have. It's like doing something interesting that is going to be like, yeah, I tried a water Bottle company. Let me tell you the story about that. What is interesting? Even in worlds of most interesting guy that you mentioned, he's just telling stories. The person who has stories is interesting. Okay, now what stories do you want to get? I think we think about this too tactically and say, like, okay, what major should I major in? Like, what school should I go to? It's not a should. I think you should ban the word should from language, by the way. That's another conversation. But I think you just be like, what are the four things I'm interested in to put into my next, like three months, in my next quarter and learn them? Or another way I think about that is I started writing letters to my 80 year old self. And things become like, very clear when you do that. Because that guy is just living on memories and living on skills that he has right now. So what does that guy say to you? That guy's like, oh, man, I went for a run today. Thanks for going on a run 50 years ago, because now I can run. Or my favorite thing to do right now is play piano. Thank you for learning piano. So when I wrote those things down, I was like, God damn it, I gotta learn piano this year. Because that guy wants to be able to play piano for his old friends. So I got to start now, or whatever that interesting thing is. And life changes, right? So sometimes I see myself living in a mountain, sometimes I see myself living on a ranch. But to do that, I'm like, I'm interested in this thing right now. Let's go chase that rabbit and see where it goes. And if halfway through I'm not interested anymore, that's where it took me. I'm already more interesting for having chased it. This country music thing might not last, but as long as it lasts, I can be in a business meeting with somebody in Charlotte and me being like, do you like Tyler Childers by chance? Just having that oh, I have this song line in my head and that guy might know the same thing. And we're close, $10 million. I'm trying to put it on every level where it's like, becoming interesting should be in your benefit for every single reason besides living a really happy life and having a lot of memories, but just everything. Dating, business, whatever, friendship.

A (16:16)

So who you are today is a series of decisions that you may or may not have made consciously or unconsciously in your past. So who you become at 80, you can manage that from this point forward. Because we can't go backwards sometimes, but we kind of think about what we can do forwards in time. And what's interesting is there's this poster I saw, and a guy makes these posters, and it's like 300 things I would do before I die. And he has a bunch of prompts, like, places I want to see, foods I want to try or people I want to meet or activities. And he has it. And so there's little prompts and he makes it and he prints it out with a little box next to each. So as he looks up there and it's like, okay, I didn't do that this much this year. And so he's got a. He holds himself accountable. So by the time he's 80, he's lived that life. He doesn't die with any regret. It's a similar concept.

B (17:05)

There's tons of people that are in that. Like, Die With Zero is a really good book I'd recommend people to read. Jesse Itzler talks about this a lot. It kind of hit me, Chris, Like, I've had this business for six and a half years. Last year it hit me when I was just like, oh, I've never done business planning. Like, I've never known how much money we're making, how much money we're spending. Like, that bad. But also, like, not planned. What do I want to do next year? I've just chased, like, short term. Interesting, right? Like, oh, right now this person called. Let me go there. But now I've started planning a little bit more and I'm trying this EOS system in my business, and I'm trying to apply it to life as well. A little bit on, yes, long term, but also, what can I try in this next three months? I've always thought maybe I like Jiu Jitsu. I have no idea if I do. I'm trying to find, like, a physical thing that. Is it tennis, is it Jiu Jitsu, whatever. I don't do any of these things right now. So I'm in the next three months, try Jiu Jitsu and then get the end of it and be like, do I want another three months of this or is this pretty baked? And I'd go try something else. And then I can have tennis in my Life for another 30 years. And it can be a way of making friends and making memories and making life. And it'll be aligned to my. What I'm interested in. And I'll find other people that are interested in the same thing as I'm interested in. And what a life to have that. Because what we have at the end is at the End of this game, you sit in a chair and you look at your buddy and you say, hey, remember that time when we. And then you tell the story. And the other realization I also had was you can't make old friends when you're old. So just investing in those relationships now so that you can sit next to a lawn chair when you're 80. I want to find someone I'm similar interests with, and I need to make those friends now. I need to make those hobbies now. I need to whatever. And they might change. So I've started planning a little bit more. And I don't think we spend a lot of time planning or closing chapters and opening chapters because whenever you meet a parent, they're like, oh, we used to be so fun. And I don't know where we had kid instead of somebody. Be like, I think my single life's over. And that was so fun. I did all the things I needed to do there. Let's open this chapter. I'm so excited. Let's get the wardrobe for this chapter. Where do I live in this chapter? Who do I hang out with in this chapter? And then it becomes a movie you're writing instead of just like fucking movie that's happening to you.

A (19:15)

It feels to me like your philosophy on this is almost like a blueprint for living, that you don't have to be an interesting person, you just do interesting things. And by virtue of doing interesting things, you become a very interesting person, 100%.

B (19:29)

That's the only way, I think, people don't realize that this whole thing is malleable. I mean, it's the exact same thing you were talking about in your personal branding episode. I bought this gold giraffe dude when I moved to Chinatown again. And that's why I wanted that. And they meant something to me at that time. And I was like, I'm going to wear this because it's going to remind me of that thing. And then it just is. You kind of morph into the person that you next want to become.

A (19:55)

Yeah. I have this prompt when I'm doing some writing exercises with people. I said that your core memories, the ones that are the best, most beloved in your mind are the misadventures, the things that could have gone horribly wrong, but for whatever reason didn't tend to have peak emotional things without the negative consequences of that. It's not like the time you got in a car accident, lost your arm. That's just a bad memory. But I did this with my kids one time. We were fishing there was three of us in a boat, and one of them had to go to the bathroom. It created a problem because we pulled up to a floating bathroom and I held onto it. I'm like, well, here's the problem. If one of you falls in the water, I do not know what to do because if I go after that one and I jump in and get you, the other one's going to float away in the boat. We're screwed, guys. So let's just focus on this moment right now, and let's do this as safely as possible while I hold on to this doc and you get out carefully, because we're screwed. I can't be in two spots at the same time. And later on we went out of the bathroom, we all. Everything was fine. We're just having a big laugh at it. They may or may not remember that moment, but I'm going to remember it until I'm done forever. Yeah, because it's like we could have gotten to a lot of trouble, but we didn't.

B (21:01)

You also found you were there. You found yourself in that trouble. I think people avoid trouble so much that they never find themselves in trouble. And sometimes trouble is good trouble. Best things in life are good trouble. You buy a lottery ticket, you win the lottery. That's like when you're buying that lottery trouble. You're like, this is trouble. Even the smallest version. You go out with friends when you're not supposed to. You meet the person that you're not supposed to. You do the pitch you're not supposed to do, and you don't have enough time to do trouble. Good trouble is awesome is the thing you will remember in life. Unfortunately, the bad trouble also happens. But I think if you just kind of have a. And I'm not amazing at this yet, but if you can just kind of sit and say, life restarts every morning. You know, you wake up, you're like, okay, I landed in this video game. What do I do? And I have to live from here on out. I think we think of, like, I didn't become a musician because I fucking was working. You know, instead of being like, okay, it's not if maybe it is too late to become a musician, but if I don't want this regret forever, what do I do so that I'm not thinking about this regret every day for the rest of my life? Maybe it is playing music for fun and busking in the middle. You know, I wanted to busk and even that I can sing, I write songs. And then I was like, oh, I Want to busk. And everyone looked at me and, like, what do you mean? And I was like, I want to play music in the subway. And I think in their head, they were like, wasn't that, like, would. Shouldn't you try to play at, like, a stage? And I'm like, why? I think that's what I was talking about, like, where life is. Sometimes people think life is beneath them. I think sometimes, like, people think dancing on a train makes them look stupid. But then you dance on a train with the person you love, That's a core memory you'll hold on forever, and the train full of people you'll never see.

A (22:46)

I get a pretty clear sense of how we can become more interesting by doing interesting things. How does this translate into marketing or brand? Like you mentioned, if you have a meeting with Adidas and you talk to him, like, what's cool about you guys? How do you extract that? How does that turn into a campaign? Are there any concrete examples that you've worked on that you can share with us?

B (23:06)

Yeah. What's fun about this job is it starts very, very high. Where does this company going, and what does this company need to do? And what does this company communicate? But when it filters down into, like, the message, you can have a lot of fun. I almost. I call it, like, it has to be strategically smart, but then creatively irresponsible. It has to just be the most memorable thing. Both ends of that is. If I was like, how many brands do you remember? You would try to find some that I'm like, the brands that you like today. If you could recall the brands that you like today, you only like them because they did something interesting. It could be marketing, it could be product. It could be a person was wearing them and you ran into them and you were like, wow, that brand is awesome. We only remember interesting things that happen. Like we were saying, good interesting or bad interesting? We only remember interesting things that happen. So when I'll give you an example of a nonprofit, and then maybe. Maybe a company we have a nonprofit for that is like a campaign for teenagers to help them prevent vaping. And this is years ago, and they came to us and they were like, you know, it's bad for the environment. It's bad for physical health that gives you cancer, all these things. And, you know, it's not great for mental health and whatever. And I was like, did you guys say mental health? And they're like, yeah. And I was like, I think that's the one we should talk about. And they're like, well, we have to talk about all of this stuff. And I was like, yeah, right now people care about their mental health and it's going badly. It was just Covid. And I was like, if they can realize that this is that, we should tell them that. So that's the strategic part. And then the creative part is we started a fake vape company called Depression Stick, and we launched it and we made ads for it. And then people were like, what the fuck is this company? And then they realized that this does this so you can make something interesting that people are like, what? What is that? Another example of, like, when that Calvin Klein ad came out where Jeremy Allen White was just ripped and huge and everybody on the Internet was talking about it. This is like a quick response version of it. We found that couch from that shoot, and then we put it on Facebook Marketplace as a campaign for Facebook, because they were trying to say, like, you can kind of pretty much find anything on Facebook Marketplace. So if you want to communicate, you can find anything on Facebook Marketplace. You can do it in this, like, crazy, weird, interesting way that somebody tells you and says, chris, by the way, did you hear that? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, did you hear that they put that couch on the thing? So if you do something interesting, people are interested in it. I think in the past, we've paid people to watch videos as advertising, so we have paid companies to force people to watch what we're saying. But that's the difference between TV and what you're doing right now, right? You are trying to do something. If this podcast was not interesting at all for a very long period of time, there'd be zero people listening. And we're just in that world. And that's kind of the shift that I made in my head where I was like, I'm working at an advertising agency making these things where we're paying people to listen to our message. But where the world is going is you have to be interesting for someone to even, like, give you one second of, like, what did you say?

A (26:09)

Okay, I have two questions for you. If you don't mind. I'd like to geek out a little bit and dive into the weeds and share what you can. Oftentimes when you're working with a client, you have interesting ideas, but they're not ready to sign off on this. So with the vape company, it's a pretty cool idea that you're going to launch a fake vape pen called Depression. Can you share any insights in terms of, like, how you got them on board with that, because oftentimes we don't get the opportunity to talk to someone who's actively working and client services. And we want to hear some of the war stories here. So was it an easy. Like, this is what we're going to do. And they're like, yeah, yeah, we totally get it.

B (26:44)

I think there's multiple things to that. Number one, I think is like, we don't explain our ideas well. So creatives often talk about what's cool about it. It's kind of like tech people, right? All of San Francisco just talks about, like, this agentic model does the Whatever, whatever. And you, you're just like, what are you talking about? And when you go to your mom and say, mom, do you want a recipe for anything in the world? And she's like, yeah. And I was like, talk to this phone. It'll give you that. That's like the best commercial for ChatGPT. Right? But same thing with clients. Like, I think we start talking about, we want to make this fake company. You have to kind of. First of all, it has to be strategically smart. It has to work for them. It has to, like, do the thing. And oftentimes I think creatives are trying to make something cool that isn't solving the business problem. So once you're doing that, describe the business problem that you're solving and how you're solving it. And the idea doesn't seem as scary when you've said, this is what we want to solve. This is how we're going to do it. Depression sticks seems like the most obvious answer. And then the last thing I will say is there are different examples. I was going to say relationships go a long way because the Facebook group, we already had a relationship with them, and we can call them and whatever, but the depression stick example, we did not already have a relationship with them. I think they're buying the person. I think they're buying the person and their enthusiasm. And, like, you kind of have to show up, you have to be excited, and you have something exciting to say. And if you're excited about it, I think people buy it and people buy the person, and they just say, that specific client is actually a really good example of, like, we had never made TV commercials as an agency. We had never made any commercials at all. We hadn't had. We had five people, and that was like a $2.8 million account, like, huge, just for our fees. And then we had to make $40 million of commercials. Five people, remote. Never had an agency. We don't even know what contracts look like. And at that time, they asked around. They asked people like, do you think these guys can pull it off? And she saw that I can pull it off. And that woman had run an agency before. I'd had dinner with her, like, a year after I was. And the agency had grown. It was like 40 people. And I was like, man, did you know that, like, we didn't even have, like, a project manager at the agency? And she's like, yeah, I know. And I was like, well, you still gave that to us. And she's like, yeah, I believed in you. I didn't care what Mojo Supermarket was Like, I was just like, oh, this guy will pull it off. Because I know him. Like, I can tell from him that he's going to, like, stop at no end and figure this out. And I think we try to, like, put all the information in the deck instead of being like, hey, man, Chris, I have the coolest thing to tell you, and I believe in it, and I will stop at nothing to make it happen.

A (29:22)

I'm with you, but we need to decode what you just said, because I know what you're talking about. I've seen it on both sides. As a person who's been able to witness people who are brilliant at pitching, telling stories, and getting people excited about what they're excited about, we've seen that. I've had to do that. As a person who's, like, competing for business myself. But for a lot of people who aren't competing and playing at that scale, they don't know what this is like. This is like Mad Men stuff, not in that old era about the way that you're able to frame the problem, talk about the insights, and transition it beautifully to creative that really solves and addresses that problem in a novel way that requires some skill. And I think you're 100% right. I think 50% is just the raw idea, but 50% is the person who's packaging that idea for them to buy it.

B (30:05)

The storytelling of it.

A (30:07)

Exactly.

B (30:08)

However it shows up.

A (30:09)

And I've seen brilliant people do this. Right. So if you had to decode you, what are the three things that you needed to do as a human being, as a broad principle as to be a really great pitch person?

B (30:23)

The thing I said earlier, like, you know, I learned it right. So I worked in the agencies, and I found people who presented really well. And there was two people I learned from shout out to both of them. Matt Ayin, the first guy I learned from, he didn't tell the story of the idea. He put just as much effort into the whole deck as he did that one idea. So that when you're telling a story, that idea lands as the most obvious choice. That was number one. And number two was like, Dan Kelly, my friend. I watched him present and whenever he had a frog in the script, he would become the frog. You know, just like make frog noises and crouch and do whatever. And I looked around, I was like, man, we're in a boardroom. What are you doing? Just get up. But he was just like, no other motherfucker's coming in here. And being the frog dude, he had no shame in the I'm gonna do this thing. But also the number one, I would say tell the full story, not just like your amazing idea. And then present the fuck out of it. And don't be scared to, like, I put in decks one pitch. The last slide was, we can't afford to fuck this up. And those guys, the team brings that up a lot. And I basically just said, like, if we don't win this business, we go out. Like, if you take away business halfway through, I go out of business. So I'm thinking about you 24 7. The other agency you're going to, you're one of 900. If you leave me halfway through and I fuck this up, I'm done. I have to go get a job again. And I think people would be afraid of saying that. People want to posture and be like, well, we got 900 people in globally. I was just straight up honest every time, just like, listen, like, I'm going to kill for this. The last thing I will say, people want to see somebody who's not too stuck on their idea. Because if you're starting a long term relationship of like consulting idea generating, whatever it is creative, they want to see someone who like, okay, when I say no to this guy, what happens? Is he just like, oh, you don't understand. Or he just goes into like, I'll think of another one and has that confidence too and has that rolled off my shoulder, let me do another one. Because that's something is inevitably depression stick is going to go to their legal and then legal is going to kill it. Then what happens? Or do they have a guy on their side that's going to be able to bounce back from that? Or the guy who's going to have a meltdown because his career changing idea is dead. And I think they're buying the guy who's like, don't worry about this, I'll give you 900. I got ideas for days.

A (32:52)

I think people do not understand this enough, this radical transparency, this candor. And I was just talking to my friend Jody Cook about this, about owner vibes. When you're an owner of an agency or a studio, you carry yourself a certain way. You are taking a lot of risks, and you're really confident, and your energy is infectious. And people usually who are below you don't have that same confidence. Like, you know what's riding on the line, you know what's at stake, and you're. You're able just to say, if you leave us halfway through, we're done. This is the most important thing to me right now, and it will be for the foreseeable future, because this is all I got. And a lot of people who feel that, who don't have the owner vibes, don't speak that. And then they kind of sense something's off about you. Like, you're scared and you're not saying something.

B (33:42)

Totally. You don't have to be an owner to have owner vibes, by the way. I've always been like that. Our chief creative officer left. At the agency I was working on, I was like the lowest level employee, and I, like, felt it. And I showed up to my boss's place and I was like, whatever you need me for, man, I'm in. I've always been that guy. I've always been that guy. I went freelance for, like, two months and I couldn't do it because I felt like I didn't have any, like, ownership in the. In the process. And I think for people not at this level, I would say just. The biggest piece of advice I would just say is like, talk to people. And this used to be really easy. When you're in about now I'm meeting all the people that I grew up with, right? Like, the people I used to work in agencies with. And now I'm starting to hear these stories that they were like, oh, you're the only guy who used to come downstairs to talk to the strategy department. Or like, the lawyer who's like, oh, you're the only creative I knew. And I was like, why? And because nobody was doing that. Nobody was, like, going to sit with a lawyer and be like, man, they said, my idea is not legal. Tell me what's legal. You know, I was like, best friends with a lawyer. What creative even knows that the agency has a lawyer? And I think people don't, like, go learn other people's shit enough until they get the phone call. A quick example of this is like, I was talking to Adidas, our first client, and they had said I was still at the agency, and they were like, do you just do creative, or do you go to market planning, too? And I had no idea what that meant. And I. I just went over to, like, a strategist desk that I knew, and I was like, hey, man, do you want to grab lunch? And he's like, sounds good. And I showed up to lunch with a notebook. And he's like, oh, man, I thought you wanted to be friends. And I was like, I do want to be friends. What's go to market planning? And I, like, wrote everything he was saying. I was like, so it's kind of like this, but kind of like this? And he's like, yeah. And I was like, how do you do it? Do you have an example? And I did all the thing, went back, called the client and was like, we're the best at go to market planning. Actually. We kill. Nobody touches us. And honestly, for the next few years, we won. We used to win pitches, and clients used to say, oh, your comms planning is so good, because I had learned it off another guy. And I think I reach out to people online all the time, and, like, somebody's doing something interesting, I don't care if they're the CEO of something or like, a junior strategist still in college. I'll rip them a note and be like, can I talk to you for 30 minutes? I just want to learn other things. And I think a lot of people stay in their lane because they're afraid of talking to somebody. It's such a compliment when you reach out to someone and say, I would love to learn from you. And I also think people reach out to people too far up. So people aim for, like, I'm going to call Richard Branson and see what's up. And I'm in college, and like, Richard Branson's not going to reply. Talk to people. Your level slightly up, slightly down. Your mentors can be younger than you.

A (36:19)

Is this idea of talking to people how you find your mirror?

B (36:22)

A little bit. I think that's. I was saying talking to people to learn your skills, but also talking to people to be your mirror. That happened to me a lot in, like, people that are close to you are really good mirrors of you, and they can tell you what you already are, but you don't believe yet. So for first few years of this business, I kept saying, like, I'm not good at business. I'm just not good at business. And I Wouldn't open up our finances. I wouldn't. Like, I was just like, I'm just not good at business. And my friends who run businesses, like successful IPO businesses, were like, you're great at. What are you talking about? And then I'd be like, nah. And then when you find enough people say that and be like, these all people think I am. I don't think I am. And these are the people I trust. So the problem is not with them, it's with me. I have to accept that I'm a good at business, and I want to do business, and it's not going to turn me into the devil. And I'm going to go learn it now to make myself feel comfortable and whatever. And it's the same thing about finding interest, right? Like, you don't know what you're interested in until you talk somebody's ear off. And then they're like, what's up with you and lawnmowers, dude? And they're like, oh, I guess I just like into lawnmowers these days.

A (37:32)

Well, it's because it's our own world. It's our own reality. We just assume everyone else is thinking about the same weird things we're thinking about. And when you actually talk to somebody and they lean in, you're like, whoa, hey, tell me more about that. And you're like, oh, people are. People are interested in this. This is cool. This must be interesting to some people.

B (37:48)

In the world of the Internet, you can be interested in anything. Lawnmowers is a good example. Like, in the world of the Internet, if you're the lawn mower guy on YouTube, make a great life.

A (37:56)

Let's segue, because I think you just mentioned a little bit about business. I remember this interview with Todd McFarlane, arguably the world's most successful comic book artist, and he was being interviewed by Complex magazine, and they said, why are you so successful? And his answer was, like, really good and refreshing. This is many years ago. He goes, well, you know, in the world of art, everybody's good, but they would go into these meetings with business owners, and they would just speak the language of art and what I needed to do to speak the language of business. So we have to become bilingual, speak the language of business and art. So I want to get into this whole the creative versus the business Persona. I believe this and why you need both.

B (38:35)

It's the biggest war going on inside of creative people that not a whole lot of people see and almost nobody talks about in the grand scheme of things. When I say it's the biggest war. It's like it's taking up so much of your subconscious, this creative and the commercial fighting each other. Especially when you're in this business of commercial creative, which we all are now. And I think in advertising, it is very rampant because in advertising, creative departments, these are people that wanted to be filmmakers, These are people that wanted to be writers. These are people that want to be whatever. And now they work in advertising. And it's a big part of their, like, they gave up on themselves idea. And it's same with me. I wanted to be a musician. I moved to America and I was like, let's move to America and make a life. I've been writing songs for 20 years. I'm embarrassed of the songs. I won't put them out. I now created this business, and I try to keep my sides very, very separate. I used to work at an agency that was also a creative founder agency, huge agency. But he wouldn't admit publicly that he, you know, he would do business and closed doors, but outside, when he was roaming around, he was calling himself a creative. And I think that's really good for business because creatives need to understand that you're on their side and whatever. But what that does to a generation of people that are listening to that as a message is business bad, creative good. And you cannot make anything creative to any scale without any business. Paint costs money, dude. Everything. And I think this fear is baked in, right? So even after four or five years, this dilemma that I'm talking about, like four or five years of having a business, I was like, so afraid of the business guy, like, coming in, you know, like, this creative and this business guy fought each other, and they gave each other rope at times, and they hung each other. Right? Sometimes. Sometimes, you know, like, it's a real war going on in there, and you have to kind of feed both. Like, you have to play the piano in the basement for no reason at all. And you have to do business. Business. But for you to get better at either one of these things, you have to get those people to be friends. They can stay different people, but they have to be friends. I know this is like a weird philosophical thing I'm on right now, but hear me out for a second. Those people have to be friends, and they have to respect each other. And I think the war going on between an artist's heart is they don't respect each other. The artist does not respect the business person. That person takes away all the time, makes you work really, really Hard makes you do the things that you don't want to, doesn't understand your passions. It's the reason why we gave up on life. And the artist is like a child and doesn't want to wake up and do their homework and whatever, whatever. Bo Burnham has a great skit song on this. But you have to have those people be friends and respect each other. You have to have the business guy buy your creative kid a piano, spend all your money on a piano and be like, here you go. Play this on weekends. And you have to have the creative give respect to the business person. So I had to go through this thing where I was like, I am a business person. Like, I just had to shout it to myself, basically, and like, oh, I'm great at business. And I went through a lot of biographies and learned about business, too. So I could feel like I had a better handle on it. Did some courses and all that stuff. I can get into the specifics of it in a second. But whenever those people came together, both of those things got better. Where I can. You're right. Like I was saying, you can set up the problem to a business really easily. I can go to the founder of Rivian and I can talk to them about their brand because I own a business, I understand a business, and I can also talk to the artist. As just an artist, it's made me better at business, and it's made me better at writing songs.

A (42:16)

You're an anomaly. As many people who are able to walk both sides, because there are peer creatives and they're peer business people. There aren't a lot of people in the middle. We reference them as day walkers. All the strengths of the vampires, none of the weaknesses, and you can do that. Now, I'm really curious about this, because when you left the agency to start your own, how do you even know how to run a business? Like, I'm thinking senior copywriter, low man on the totem pole. What do you know about business? What do you know about hiring people, managing people? How'd you get over that first hump? Because it's. Well, you must have figured something out to get to 80, 90 people. That's a lot.

B (42:54)

You have to face the problem that you like. This is how little I knew about business. You know who I asked, how do I start a business? Is the teller at Chase Bank. Because I was like, surely this the bank teller at Chase. I just walked up and was like, hey, how do I start a business account? They're like, what's your business? And I Was like, I haven't started it yet. And he was like, okay, so first you have to start a business. I was like, how do I do that? And he was like, laughing at me. He's like, are you asking me how to start an llc? And I was like, llc? What is that? You know, just like, okay, llc. Now it's so much easier, dude. You can just go on ChatGPT and tell, what are the nine first things I have to do? I was going, problem, problem, problem, problem, solution. So the first time somebody said, we need an sow a scope of work. And I was like, what is that? And there, you know, the client was like, can you send me one? Now you can ask cheat. ChatGPT. I booked a meeting with the finance guy at the previous agency I worked at, bought him coffee. And I was like, sow, where do I get one? And he's like, it's not a government document. You have to make one. I was like, you have examples for me? So just like, you know, one step at a time. They were like, what's it? Send us a capabilities deck. And I was like, I don't know what that is. Ask somebody for one. They didn't send me one. I just went ahead and made one. Like, I just put lion pictures of Lion King and wrote like a poem on top of it and presented it as a capabilities deck. And those people now, looking back, surely knew I didn't know what I was doing. But if you just kind of go one problem at a time, you can solve anything. I think our fear is just the behemoth of, oh, my God, I have to eat an elephant. I think if you just go like, let me go lick this guy. See what happens.

A (44:30)

The takeaway from this part of the conversation is something that I find in a lot of very successful people. You have a question, you have a childlike curiosity, and then you have the fortitude or the courage of a child. You just walk up to the person, why is your dress red? And why is your hair like that? You just ask. And there's no pretense, there's no false humility. It's just like, I don't even know. This is a dumb question. I'm just going to ask. And here's the weird thing about asking. Sometimes you get an answer. But there's a lot of people who are too smart to ask the freaking question, and they overthink everything. So there's this idea I like to share with people. Between stupid and smart people.

B (45:09)

It's a compliment when you ask somebody Some question. There's no such thing as a dumb question because it's in your head. If it's in your head, you don't know the answer to it. So either you're dumb or you don't. You know, you just don't have this answer yet. So you gotta go ask somebody. And when you ask somebody, anything in the world, when you ask somebody, hey, would you mind telling me the time? That's such a compliment because you're like, I know something. You don't. Let me tell you. So I think people think of it as, like, it's gonna freak people out or it's gonna make me seem stupid. Yeah. Isn't that the point? You are stupid. If you don't know the answer to that, someone's gonna think that you don't know that answer to that. And the only way of not being stupid is then going ask somebody. And the worst is they can say is just like, I wouldn't like to share that information. You're like, okay, thanks.

A (45:53)

Right, right. Well, as a former teacher myself, I would say, like, yeah, I used to say there's no such thing as a stupid or dumb question. And having fielded thousands of questions, no, there are some stupid questions, people. There are, but I'll still encourage you to ask. And then I was like, no, that was pretty stupid. But the thing I wanted to share with you is this for our audience who are listening. Okay? There are two types of people in the world, stupid people and smart people. And let me tell you the pros and cons of each. Stupid people don't know anything. They just do dumb things. They work really hard. They make lots of mistakes. They never seem to want to learn from anybody else's wisdom, but they do do stuff, and they work really hard sometimes with no results. And then there are really smart people. They're learned folks. They've got multiple degrees. They think about everything, and they make no mistakes because they never do anything. That's the problem. They're always busy planning and figuring out the calculus of, if I do X, will I get result Y. The combination is to be a little bit stupid, to have the courage and the curiosity, be a little bit smart. So if you take the first two letters of stupid, which is st, and you take the last three letters of smart, that's start. And that's what you did. You just got to do the first step.

B (46:55)

I think about this a lot in this whole world of AI too. Right. I know we're going to get to that in a second, but if all Information is accessible, and everything is possible. What's the only thing that's left? It's action.

A (47:07)

And even for now, because when the Elon robots take over, action won't even be a thing you can hold on to, but while you still can. Humans, please just do something. All right, let's move on to number three. Structure fuels creativity. What do you mean?

B (47:19)

We've been having this conversation throughout. So, business. When I started looking into business and learning business and a lot of that, like, by the way, learn business your own way. I learned I read biographies because I couldn't read business books. And then I also did, like, the Tony Robbins business course, because I was like, this will be entertaining. Like, I just found things that, like, not ashamed. I was just like, this sounds entertaining at least, and I'll try it. And then got coaches and stuff, so definitely learn your way. Whatever interests you. Structure fuels creativity. I'm good at writing songs. I write awesome songs. But if there's no structure in me doing the songs, turning that into a project, turning that into a video project, turning that into whatever, turning that into whatever, then it is just an ability. So a creative ability and a creative output. The difference between that is structure. So I found that with the business because I wasn't planning anything in the business. And then I want to start up. I kind of this idea hit my head both for life and for business at the same time, where I was like, oh, I want to plan the rest of my life. Like, what are the things that I want to do so I can start doing them? What do I want my business to go so I can start doing that with music? What do I want to make? And I think knowing what you want in Life is probably 95% of the game, and it's the 95% very few people play because it is so overwhelming even today, because now we have so much choice. But there's simple questions you can ask, like, where do I want to live? Where do I want to be? But if I ask you that, sometimes you're like, oh, man, I don't know. And you're like, just throw out one answer. What's your first answer? And then let's build towards that and change it. But it requires structure, right? So structure first is knowing what you want and then building a structure to get it. And the right structure gives you even more freedom and creativity because you are now playing in a sandbox that you have built. So build a sandbox. And if your painting exceeds the sandbox, life is very malleable. The Canvas can get bigger, but the right structure gives you, like, if I knew that I wanted to make a video music project and I wanted it out by 2035, I can, like, back activities back to that. And every day I have to do something to get that cheese. And that will be the fun of it because I've designed that thing. Another metaphor I used for this is like, people don't plan their life. It's kind of like sitting on a train and not knowing where it's going. And there's so much panic every time a door opens. Because a door opens and you see another person, you're like, oh, wow, maybe I should do this. Maybe I should be that guy. And when you have your life planned out, you know, the stops on the way, you can, like, put your headphones in and just enjoy the train ride a little bit and not be worried about it. And I think people are like, oh, that guy has my dream life. When you have your dream life planned out, you can walk into pretty much almost a dream life and just be like, yeah, but the blinds are wrong. I wouldn't do those blinds. So this is in my life.

A (50:25)

So I think it gives you a.

B (50:25)

Lot more confidence in who you are when you, like, structure it in business too, man. I think a lot of us creatives are just doing this, Keep throwing paper balls that there's a trash can without knowing what they're trying to build and where are they trying to exit and what's their point of like, what do they want this to turn into? And I'm certainly that way. I've done it that way for six years, but now it's like. And there's a lot of anxiety that lives in your back of your head because you're like, I don't know where this is going on. I'm episode number 7,000 and I have no idea why I'm doing any of this thing. I think if you have a plan, you can move towards that in increments. I do the 30 day. I might switch my lifestyle to a 60 day thing eventually. But, like, getting a goal and saying, I want it in the next 30 days, I'm doing that for business. So I'm trying to do that for life too. Like in the next 30 days, I want to achieve this. So what's the structure that needs to happen within that? And then once you've done the structuring, that's actually like, one day you get to live life the next 30, 29, 30 days. It's beautiful. You know, where you're going, you know, you know where you're going. You picked it, you know, because a lot of times the anxiety is from like life is happening to you. But even if you make small choices and in three months I want to have had my favorite banh mi, my favorite burger, my favorite pizza, all in New York, so then you can plan that and enjoy each banh mi.

A (51:48)

There's a lot to talk about here and I think it's kind of interesting. You kind of plan your life in like 30 day sprints. So in a given year you might do 10 or 12. Like if you take a couple months off, then let's just say you do 10 sprints a year. And this is how you remain really agile and innovative. Because you're not doing this year long plan which if things and things inevitably come up like before it happened, like tariffs weren't a thing, now they're a thing. And if your plan was so solid on this thing, you'd be totally screwed. But now 30 days comes up, you set a new plan. A lot of people don't realize this is that creativity thrives with constraints, that the dream of every creative person is open, brief, and then you actually get one and you panic. You make a thousand ideas. You don't know what's good, you don't know what's bad. And my business coach used to tell me this. Now imagine if you're an archer. I don't need you to tell me exactly where the bullseye is because that's micromanagement. But tell me what wall it's on. Because if I'm spinning around and shooting a gazillion arrows in the wrong direction, doesn't make any difference. And here's the thing. I find that with greater constraints, there's usually a correlation between the more innovative creative. So if you give someone a year to do something, a month or a week, it's not that a year will be better, it's just a lot of wasted energy. But somebody who has a week, they can come up with some pretty cool stuff and you give them a low budget and then they start inventing new things to date. I always reference this. There's a promo for mtv, Yo, MTV Raps that won a bunch of awards and was done for what looked like $3. They took a box, a cardboard box, and they punched a hole through the top. And then they created a two dimensional cardboard character of a guy doing a head spin. And then they put a wire into that and then a little motor underneath and it just spun around in a Circle. And they did this on the streets of New York. It was just like, creativity thrives with constraints. If you gave them a million dollars to produce that, they might try to cast people. But it was just such a novel idea, something we hadn't seen before. And there was a charm to this really handcrafted thing that was lo fi. And whenever we see things lo fi, we know one thing, especially in today, it's made by a human being.

B (54:00)

We go to the Cannes Festival every time. My whole industry and the first time we went there was like these big, like, the whole beach is covered with, like, big, like, meta thing and Pinterest thing and whatever, like, agencies and stuff. So there's no beach left. It's all gone. There's, like, a tiny sliver of public beach. So there's Meta Beach, Pinterest Beach, Spotify beach, and there's, like, tiny sliver of public beach. And Gary Vaynerchuk has, like, a yacht on the other side that you can go to. And I decided to put two beach chairs in the middle of the public beach and put on a camera and said, anybody who wants to talk to me can just, like, come talk to me here. And I've been doing it for five years. It's the most fun thing. It's the most thing that stands out. And like, every. We've got tons of CMOs and interesting characters on there, and it's. I think if I did that now in my agent, like, if I was working at an agency and they were like, you have $100,000, $500,000 to stand out. I couldn't come up with Public beach because it's just like, I'm trying to solve a problem for myself that has no money and all the constraint in the world.

A (55:04)

Well, you can't compete with Facebook and all those other companies. What are you going to do? You got to do something different.

B (55:08)

Right. And it stands out from, like, miles away.

A (55:12)

Right. That's very cool. Okay, I'm moving on to number four. I think we've touched on a lot of these points already about how to pitch and win with interesting ideas. I'm just curious if there's something else you want to add to that. What do you think the thing that.

B (55:24)

I said earlier, man? Like, I think you just have to show up. You have to be very. First of all, take the assignments that you're interested in. People will know, show up, be very excited, be very enthusiastic, and do the work and show love for the opportunity, man. Like, be grateful for the things and people like I said earlier, people just buy the person that. That they're talking to.

A (55:45)

So I got a weird request. Can you think about a pitch where you just were on fire and replay that for us? Reenact it for us where we get to see this?

B (55:57)

There was one, like, two days ago, dude. The lesson we can learn from one two days ago is, like, sometimes we'll be working on it for a week and 16 minutes before. If I have a better idea, I'll.

A (56:08)

Change it on the fly. Does the team know?

B (56:10)

I mean, on the fly or the team knows? And I think a lot of people have quit here in the past because of that. Because, like, oh, man. But my argument is just like, is it better? And if it's better, let's go in there and just say, by the way, five minutes before we talk to you, we had a different thought, and this is it. And I think it's right. And I think that one I felt good about. That's the feeling I chase. Because when you lose ones that you knew you were, like, really on fire, it, like, doesn't bother me at all because I'm like, oh, yeah, I dunked that basketball. Doesn't matter if you won or not.

A (56:44)

We did it. They weren't that smart to pick you. Yeah.

B (56:47)

Yeah. There's a time where this weird call happened where I was talking to a big company. We had two meetings. So one, we were going to present brand strategy, and then we were going to present, like, the creative campaign. And right before the brand strategy won, my strategist and I were, like, at a coffee shop, just discussing, like, the five, six, eight ways she come up with. And I was like, this is good. Like, let's present the first five. I think one is the most right? And five is okay. Three might be a weird space. Let's see where their head's at to go through that. So we go through that. We present the first directions. They pick the right one. The second meeting is where the creative campaign comes in, and we show up with, like, good, I'm confident. And the guy is immediately, like. He drops in the chat said, like, if they pick the first one, great. If pick the fourth one, they're agency people that might pick three, Whatever. And he drops it in, and he's like, overheard at a coffee shop. And I just started laughing. And I was like, oh, yeah, so you had a spy in the coffee shop. But this guy was pissed. This guy was like, are you fucking testing us? Like, what do you mean? We're just agency people. And I was like, we like you because you're Agency people. And I wanted to find out, like, do we want to do the same work? This guy was livid, like, in front of his team and in front of my team, and we're all, like, frozen. I don't know why this man's so mad, but he's mad because whatever I stop and I'm just like, you are testing my intelligence right now by making me pitch. And I'm also testing your intelligence. Make no mistake, I'm doing the same thing because I'm trying to find out if I want to work with you or not, and you're trying to find out if you want to work with me and whatever. He's like, all right, cool. And I was like, now watch what I do. And I fucking presented the shit out of a campaign. Honestly, I think other people had slides. I didn't even let them do it. I was just like, here we go. And at the end, he was like, yeah, that is pretty good. And I was like, we probably won't work together, but this was awesome. This was, like, an amazing experience for me. And I think that's the one that stands out to me because it was such, like, tension. But, you know, man, like, you did one yesterday. I did one two days ago. That, you know, if the other people are vibing with what you're saying, and there's this, like, head nods. I've also been in, by the way, in meetings where halfway through, they're just hanging out. I've also had that happen. I've also just like, hey, can you go to the next idea, please? We can't do this and go to the next idea. Like, yeah, can you go to the next idea? I was like, well, there's only two. And they're like, okay. And then they hung up. I've been in that early on, dude. I was pitching to make the bathroom signs in the Virgin Voyages ship, and I lost that pitch. I think people hear about the successes, but I presented that one enthusiastically as fuck as well. And I believed in what we were doing and all that stuff. I think the ones I remember aren't even the ones that we won. I think I just remember the ones that are were, like, slam dunks, and I liked it.

A (59:35)

Okay, I want to go back to this one where you're talking about this, because the story part, I think I got it. But let me just clarify here. You were in a coffee shop minutes before you got to get on the call in New York being New York, there was somebody in the room who's listening to y' all talk about the same pitch? Correct.

B (59:53)

Somebody at the coffee shop heard us talk about what we were going to present to the client. And then next week when we presented, he was pissed that we were talking about them in a coffee shop, first of all. And then also that he thought that we were testing his intelligence or like saying that they were stupid or whatever.

A (60:13)

Right. Because of the things that you had said unawares that someone was listening to you. You were saying, they picked this, they're dope, they picked this. They're typical agency people and they might be too boring for us kind of thing.

B (60:23)

Right?

A (60:24)

Right.

B (60:24)

Yeah.

A (60:24)

Okay, good. This is why it's very dangerous to talk about clients before or after in a non secure space, like a public space, like a coffee shop. But it led to a very interesting story.

B (60:34)

So now I'm always like, paranoid.

A (60:36)

Yeah. We enforce the cone of silence. Do not say anything until we're in our car when we know it's secure. Do not say anything. Because once this has happened to us, we left a pitch meeting and we start talking about it and somebody in the elevator was like, I'm like, what? Shut the front door right now. Do not. Gave him a sign like, do not talk right now. And said, do you know how dangerous it is that we're in the client's building right now that you're talking about them? This is bad business for them. Do not do that ever again. Okay, so back to your story. So you're presenting and then the client calls you out, having heard that, oh, you think we're boring agency people. And we heard what you said. And this is the question I have for you. In that moment, everybody like, yup, we got caught right handed. Now, most people would have crumbled and apologized and just backpedaled and their whole game would have been messed up. What clicks in your brain that you're like, you know what? Mother effort, let's go.

B (61:32)

I honestly started with the Apollo. Like, first I couldn't understand why he was upset. And then first I like started the half apology thing, like if you were upset. And then I kind of decided to tell the story of why we had multiple. He was basically just like, don't bring in anything you don't believe in or whatever, like, well, you're just wasting our time or whatever. And I was like, no, I was trying to figure out what you wanted. And then I was just like, wait a minute, that's what he's doing. They haven't paid us yet. This is the exact Same thing you and I are doing right now at this moment, where you are testing my intelligence while I test yours. And that kind of came out of nowhere. Honestly, I don't know what makes me do that. I just try to talk my way out of things. My whole team was frozen. Like, you couldn't get them to say a word. Of course, you have to kind of represent your team, too, right? Imagine you are small and you go with someone in your family and somebody punches your dad. And if your dad is just like, I'm so sorry, you're the worst. You're standing there and it's like, oh, man. And you're like, my family's the worst. Don't worry about it. Like, you don't leave a good example for, like, hey, I'm supposed to be your dad here. That's the thing about being confident in your work. There's pitches I've gone into. Me, like, man, I don't have it. If I didn't know I had it, I probably wouldn't have acted that way. I'm definitely. You can tell in a meeting, when I sit down at the table, you can tell if I have it or not. Like, you can see in my face. Do you have the idea that's going to fucking rock this world or are you just going to present me some bullshit and people who know me can tell immediately?

A (63:00)

I'm going to pretend like I can crawl into your brain for a second and speak words to it. And then you tell me how far I am off the truth. I think you go in there and you get called out and at first, like, let's do the polite thing. Yes, you're right. But then like, wait a minute, mother trucker. You're doing the same thing to us, and I'm going to stand my ground here and we're probably going to have this job anyway, so why not go out with a blaze of glory? I believe in the ideas. Let's rock and roll. And at least, if nothing else, my team knows we don't take BS from nobody.

B (63:30)

That's 100% right. I also.

A (63:31)

Oh, see how it was in your.

B (63:33)

Brain, that part you. That I left out, which is. I knew we had lost the thing. There's no way to recover from that. Like, that guy's so upset, this whole team, it's going to be awkward forever. There's no way they're going to now give us their business and then work happily ever after. I knew we had lost it, and I. Yes, it was like a stupid way to lose It I just wanted to then answer our side and say, this is what you're losing and that requires like confidence in like I knew the work we had and I was like, this is some of the best work we've put together. So I was basically just. The confidence only came from me being like, my team put this shit together that I'm about to take you through that you're never going to get to do because of your arrogance of like, I fought with that guy. So I was both. It was kind of just like their work was giving me energy. But yeah, that's kind of what happened.

A (64:25)

And now we dive into the final chapter of this five part conversation which is the thing that's on everybody's mind. And I know you've already tipped it a little bit talking about agents and things like that. You say the future will be won by the most interesting. Even in an AI enabled world, AI is a hot button. This is going to set our audience on fire here. Feel free to hang. You know, I'm going to give you lots of rope. However you want to handle this, please talk about it.

B (64:52)

Look, I think my opinion AI is like very new. Our opinion over time will change on this. So I'm leaving myself, like in 10 years, does it change? Because I don't know what life looks like in 10 years, but I'm again, maybe that's a personality trait. Maybe it's true. Like, I'm very excited about it. I'm very excited that this is happening within my lifetime if life's going to get this interesting, if the world is going to get this interesting. And I'm alive during that. Like, I remember memorizing phone numbers and now we're all going to have textbooks in our head is kind of crazy. And it's happening no matter what. So you can either be excited about what's the thing that's inevitably going to happen, or you can be morose about the thing that's inevitably going to happen and you're only going to be able to shape it properly, the world and yourself if you were excited about it. So that's just like a preface to this whole thing. But I am so excited that it's here because I think creative people are going to be like the athletes of this generation. We're about to get LeBron James money. Because if anything is possible to do, what's the thing that's left? Coming up with a thing that we want to do and then having the taste on the other side to say that's not it, or that is it. So imagination and taste become the two, two things that are left. I want to make a car and I want you to design it this way. And these are the examples. And this is how I see it. And this is how the buttons will work. Whatever, 3D print that bitch. And then when it's 3D printed being like, that's not right. This is what I find. You know, the front is ugly because of this. Whatever. Imagination and taste, that's all that's left in the world. And it just so happens to happen in a time in my life where I'm A, alive, B, not like starting out. So I'm so psyched about this because my head has more ideas than it knows what to do with. And now I have an opportunity to get more of those ideas out. So I in that, in that, like the thing we were talking about earlier, like creativity needs structure. I almost see this take up a lot of the structure. I play music to get a six piece band together to try to do this one particular thing that I'm doing, very difficult. But to get it through AI a lot easier. I want an explosion, a car explosion and an ad. The budget's not that high, but I can make that explosion happen because I have AI now. So I think in this world of this technology being around, imagination and taste is the only thing that's left. And what does imagination and taste look on the other side? So you have imagination and taste. That's why you put your room together that way, you put your outfit together that way and you have that thing and what the result of it is. I look at you and say, that's an interesting dude. I want to talk to that guy. He's an interesting guy. So the theme that we were following, that of just doing interesting things and hence being interesting, now doing interesting things is a lot easier. So I think creative people are going to. I'm not saying right now and I'm not saying all of them. By the way, there is a hundred people that occupy creative professional positions. I do think 30 of them will no longer have professional creative positions. But I do, I think maybe just as 100 will, but they might not be the same 30, so the 30 will get replaced by a different 30. But I think if you are a really, really good creative brain and you embrace this technology and you want to make the things that are in your head, you are about to be overpaid.

A (68:34)

So you're very optimistic about the future for those creatives who understand how to articulate their ideas and then Have a powerful imagination coupled with great taste. And I'll say to people, you could buy fashion, but you can't buy taste. This is not an inherent thing. You may be able to learn it, but it's. It's not an easy shortcut. That's why so many rich people have such horrible tastes. It's just they need other people to help them, guide them through an aesthetic process. Okay, this is great. But you are also realistic in that there's some displacement that's going to be happening, because the person who used to make that explosion for you now no longer has a job. And for the people who are in that line of work, do you have any advice for them?

B (69:17)

I would say the person that doesn't have a job is the person that is not going to embrace it and learn a new thing. I really do think that there's a strategist that was working on a pitch with me. Brilliant strategist. And we went to the pitch and he was talking about. He's like, yeah, I don't use it. I don't use ChatGPT at all. And I was like, so you were doing all this research manually? And he's like, yeah, my wife uses that. I don't use it. I was like, oh, dude, please use it now. I'm not saying for me, I'm just saying for yourself, like, start using this stuff. Like, start. Even if not all the time. I don't use it all the time, to be honest, But I think you have to start to understand what these things can and can't do. Just so you start formulating that in your head, because this is going to be a long curve process. Most people talking about AI and art are people who are not artists themselves. They are people who claim they will replace the artists. So people in my business oftentimes talk about the AI thing as like, how many people can we replace? And I'm building technology in our agency, which I'm trying to be like, who are my smartest creatives? Which is like a small company, basically the whole company. How do I make them superheroes? And how do I make a system so they can share information and can share their projects and share all that stuff so it becomes like, easy. So I'm a creative person. My favorite thing is this brainstorming with another guy. That's my favorite part. But then I have to go write that into a script, and then I have to go put that in a deck, and then I have to go attend a meeting, and then I have to go attend A meeting on all agency meeting that I have to send some emails and I have to do timesheets and I have to like, there's a bunch of shit that I don't like doing in my job and then there is stuff that I do like doing. And I think if you think about learning this technology to be able to do more of the stuff that you love and then also be able to do the stuff that you can't do today, make a song explosion, whatever it is like the thing that you can't do today, I think it's beautiful. I think the only thing that can hold you back is a fear. I think a lot of us have a lot of fear because every time we open up a social media thing, somebody's made a new video with whatever, but is it, you know, right now we're looking at a lot of stuff that's like pretty good for AI, not like pretty good. You know, the headlines are about stuff that's pretty good for AI, not something that like blows me away and I have to go take a walk around Chinatown to just understand. I think you can do that. I think we're. A lot of that noise is making us really, really fearful and I don't think we should be. I think we should turn that fear into energy and excitement and try to do projects. It's like the first time you got Photoshop, you can be very curious and you can start designing stuff and you can start doing stuff. This matters mostly to the generation that is already employed, because the people that are going to come up are going to come up using this. And the people that are really at the top, they're using humans as agents anyway because you have 60 people doing the bringing your vision to life. The people that are like already employed have been doing this for enough years that they've learned a specific way of doing this. They should be afraid and they should go to companies that are doing this well and go get a job there instead, because they should be around other curious people that are using this stuff.

A (72:25)

Well, I love that. I mean, I want to end this on a very high note that you're saying the best creative people are about to get that LeBron money.

B (72:32)

LeBron money, dude, I'm so excited.

A (72:34)

Wow.

B (72:35)

I do think so. I'm so excited about that.

A (72:37)

I hope you're right. And you had said we're still relatively new in this space, so this may or may not age well, but let's see. And I like your optimism around this. I describe myself as an AI optimist But it ruffles a lot of feathers for people because they see the end of times coming, but they're not willing to embrace this. And so they will get swept out, I think. And it's unfortunate because there's a lot of really talented people out there, but they have a fundamental philosophical difference in belief systems that these models are trained on copyrighted intellectual property that those people never be compensated for. And that's what they're hanging the hat on. And unfortunately, the world just keeps marching on.

B (73:17)

I think that's a blip in time. I think books are created off of language that that person didn't write. And I know that's like a very big jump to think about for us now because you're like, yeah, but language is based. And, like, books are books. But that's what. We're gonna look at this in five, 10 years and be like, oh, we had all those copyrights for each image, didn't we? And now you're gonna have copyrights for your personality and can you sell your whole personality or like a character of a personality, or like, there's other ways to do this thing? And I think truly creative people are very curious and very open and very honest. I think the social media happening at the same time, and every time you go to LinkedIn or Instagram or whatever, it's just like another robot generated image. But what people aren't saying. So two things I want to clarify. One, there's a lot of headlines that are like, 60% of jobs will be replaced. What they're not saying is actually the research is 60% of what you do in your job will be replaced. Whether you get replaced or not is not part of that equation. 60% of what you do. So there will be a new 60% that you will have to learn. And then you have to do the. So are you willing to learn that new 60% or not? And I think the second thing is, like, people read the headlines. They're like, oh, the best artist on Spotify right now is all AI. It's not AI, it's some person who was making songs using an AI software. It's different. And I think when the headlines don't do us any justice because our brain reads, the 60% of all jobs are gone. Fuck this, I'm out. But I think if you learn it, you will learn the new 60%.

A (74:49)

We're at a massive moment in human history. The paradigm has shifted and is shifting. And I don't say that lightly. I know everybody's like, I use a different typeface. Paradigm shift. No, this is a real paradigm shift in human history here. This really is. And so the iceberg is splitting in half. It behooves you to get on the half that's moving forward versus the one that's going to sink and disappear into the ocean.

B (75:10)

So, well put. Let's end it on that.

A (75:12)

Wonderful. Well, my guest today has been Mo Said, and he is the founder of Mojo Supermarket. And I have to say, after talking to him, he is an interesting guy doing interesting things, talking about interesting concepts. Thank you very much for being my guest today.

B (75:26)

Thanks, man. This is super fun. Thank you for having me.