Podcast Summary: Fear & Clients Almost Killed His Billion-Dollar Designs - With Robert Brunner | Ep 355
Released on June 14, 2025, "The Futur Podcast" hosted by Chris Do delves deep into the intersections of design, marketing, and business. In Episode 355, Chris sits down with Robert Brunner, an esteemed industrial designer with a distinguished career spanning roles at Apple, Beats by Dre, and his own firm, Ammunition. This episode explores Brunner's insights on navigating client relationships, fostering creative excellence, and maintaining craftsmanship in a rapidly evolving industry.
Introduction to Robert Brunner and His Design Philosophy
The episode kicks off with Robert Brunner sharing his passion for the intricate relationship people have with objects. He emphasizes that creating a product is "10% inspiration, 90% perspiration," highlighting the escalating costs and risks as product development progresses (00:00). Brunner identifies himself primarily as a "maker," a trait deeply rooted in his upbringing with creative parents—his father an engineer and his mother an artist (02:01).
Notable Quote:
"I'm a maker. I've always been. When you look back through the lens of where you are today into childhood, I see that's all I ever did, was make stuff."
— Robert Brunner (02:01)
Overcoming Client Barriers to Achieve Excellence
A significant portion of the conversation centers on the challenges Brunner faces with clients. He articulates that while clients initially seek his expertise to push boundaries, the journey from concept to market often introduces barriers rooted in fear and risk aversion. These obstacles primarily emerge from the client side, as built-in risk mitigation tactics lead to resistance against innovative processes (03:48).
Notable Quote:
"It's just the nature of the business I'm in. It's a very complex, expensive, long process to develop and deliver a product into the world."
— Robert Brunner (03:48)
Brunner underscores the importance of trust in overcoming these barriers, allowing him to push clients beyond their fears to achieve outstanding results.
Transformative Partnership Models in Design
Brunner discusses a pivotal shift in his firm's approach to client relationships. By moving beyond traditional fee-based models to include revenue sharing and equity partnerships, Ammunition aligns its success with that of its clients. This strategy fosters a deeper partnership mentality, ensuring both parties are invested in the product's success.
Notable Quote:
"We became part of their business and we had skin in the game as well. And so we were respected and listened to."
— Robert Brunner (07:34)
This model not only enhances collaboration but also increases the likelihood of products achieving significant market impact.
Evaluating Potential Clients: Red Flags and Respect
When discussing client evaluation, Brunner emphasizes the importance of assessing the people behind the projects. He identifies arrogance and a lack of experience as major red flags that can jeopardize project success. Brunner believes that mutual respect and the willingness to learn are crucial for fruitful collaborations.
Notable Quote:
"If anybody in this team has experience in actually delivering a physical product... it's much easier to do that."
— Robert Brunner (15:58)
Brunner advises young designers to seek clients who respect their expertise and are open to guidance, ensuring a smoother and more productive design process.
Lessons from Working with Industry Titans
Brunner shares his experiences working with influential figures like Jimmy Iovine at Beats by Dre. He highlights the demanding nature of such collaborations, where respect and belief in the client's vision are paramount. Despite the challenges, Brunner found value in pushing through difficult interactions to achieve excellence.
Notable Quote:
"I stuck with it because I really respected him and believed in him."
— Robert Brunner (21:03)
These experiences have reinforced Brunner's commitment to maintaining high standards and fostering strong, respectful client relationships.
The Importance of Craftsmanship in the Digital Age
Brunner passionately defends the value of hands-on craftsmanship, even in an era dominated by digital tools and automation. He argues that physical prototyping and tactile experiences are irreplaceable for understanding scale, functionality, and user interaction. Maintaining a workshop allows his team to preserve the visceral connection essential for exceptional design.
Notable Quote:
"There is this thread that runs through about iterating and playing with and tweaking and doing all these things that you do just to get it in its best possible shape."
— Robert Brunner (30:22)
Brunner contends that while technology enhances the design process, the human element remains crucial for achieving truly impactful and meaningful products.
Balancing Perfection and Progress: Overcoming the 'Good Enough' Mindset
In discussing the tension between striving for perfection and embracing practicality, Brunner warns against the complacency of settling for "good enough." He believes that mediocrity can be more detrimental than occasional failures, as it stifles innovation and growth. Brunner advocates for pushing beyond comfort zones to create products that resonate deeply with users.
Notable Quote:
"Mediocrity can cost you more than any failure ever could."
— Robert Brunner (34:32)
He also touches on the role of AI in design, suggesting that while automation can handle repetitive tasks, the essence of human creativity and connection remains irreplaceable.
Advice for Emerging Designers
Towards the end of the episode, Brunner offers valuable advice for young designers navigating the complexities of the industry. He emphasizes the importance of learning from every experience, seeking feedback from trusted peers, and trusting one's instincts. Brunner also highlights the significance of surrounding oneself with a strong, capable team that can provide diverse perspectives and support.
Notable Quote:
"Expose an idea to people that you trust and respect and then just go with your gut instinct."
— Robert Brunner (43:44)
Rapid-Fire Favorites: A Glimpse into Brunner's Personal Tastes
In a lighter segment, Brunner shares his favorite objects and brands, revealing his appreciation for timeless design and craftsmanship. From the classic TZO lamp by Richard Sapper to his beloved Porsche 911, Brunner's choices reflect his deep-seated values in functionality and aesthetic excellence.
Notable Quote:
"I always hate questions like this because I just go blank."
— Robert Brunner (44:17)
Conclusion: Embracing Excellence and Human Connection in Design
The episode wraps up with Brunner reiterating his belief in the enduring importance of human connection and excellence in design. He encourages designers to strive beyond the surface, to imbue their creations with meaning and purpose that resonate with users on a deeper level.
Final Thoughts:
"The human part of the equation is not going to evaporate."
— Robert Brunner (39:12)
Connect with Robert Brunner
To follow Robert Brunner's latest projects and insights, listeners are encouraged to visit his Instagram @RobertEBunner and Ammunition Group's website at Ammunition Group. For direct inquiries, Brunner suggests reaching out via direct messages on his social platforms.
This episode offers a compelling exploration of the delicate balance between creative ambition and practical execution, underscored by Robert Brunner's extensive experience and unwavering dedication to craftsmanship.