← The Futur with Chris Do
The Futur with Chris Do
Fear & Clients Almost Killed His Billion-Dollar Designs - With Robert Brunner | Ep 355
00:49:11
Loading summary
Transcript99 lines
- [00:00]
Robert Brunner
One of the reasons I got in this profession was I found it fascinating the relationship that people have with things, you know, and objects and the attachment of, you mentioned stories and emotions. And they use it to define who they are developing a product, like a lot of things is this sort of 10% inspiration, 90% perspiration thing. Right. What happens in development is as time goes on, the amount of money you spend and the cost of mistakes goes way, way up. Hi, I'm Robert Brunner. I'm an industrial designer. And you are listening to Future.
- [00:35]
Chris
On today's episode, I'm talking to Robert Bruner. He has a long list of accomplishments, so he's worked at everywhere that you want to be and I dream of being at. And he was named by Fast Company as. I mean, this is a really luffy title. Robert, Most creative people in business. How does one even live up to that?
- [00:52]
Robert Brunner
Yeah, that's a tough one. But, you know, I try. I try.
- [00:56]
Chris
Okay. You're a rare breed because you've been. You have your own firm. It's called Ammunition. You've worked as director of industrial design at Apple. You've also done work with Beats by Dre. There's a long list of things you've done as also being a former partner at Pentagram in their San Francisco office. And I just saw on LinkedIn that you had thanked, I guess, Paula share as one of your, I guess, influences or people who've sparked you.
- [01:25]
Robert Brunner
Yeah, yeah, I worked for Paula. I worked with Paula Rather for 10 years. And, you know, she's amazing and she's a good friend, but I was always inspired by her creativity, but her tenacity and outspokenness, you know, it's kind of always this, you know, she's. She's one of those people that can be in your face and you. You actually enjoy it because she's so passionate, you know. So, yeah, I love working with Paul and still. Still talk to her frequently and count her as one of my. One of my major influences.
- [01:56]
Chris
That was an interesting description of Paula. How would you describe yourself from a different lens?
- [02:02]
Robert Brunner
I'm a maker. I've always been. When you look back through the lens of where you are today into childhood, I see that's all I ever did, was make stuff. And I grew up in a family that made stuff. My father was a really creative engineer. My mother was a craftsperson, artist, entrepreneur. So I'm a maker. I believe very strongly in what we do and the value that it has, and I'm very passionate about that. That Said I am a very kind, empathetic person. So I tend to work in a way of building partnerships. Except when you have to be an asshole. You can be an asshole, but I usually try and reserve that for when it's totally necessary.
- [02:53]
Chris
Well, out of curiosity, when do you find it to be necessary to be tough?
- [02:58]
Robert Brunner
You know, it honestly it's when people need it. Right? Hey, you know, I, you know, we try, we try and do always do our best work and get the best result out there. And then sometimes there's there and there's all kinds of things that, that can keep that from happening. Some of them are just naturally part of the development of things. Some of our people just are closed minded, not listening, not understanding or just being, you know, difficult. So, and then when I get to those cases where it's sort of you as a person are getting in the way of delivering something really good unnecessarily, I'm going to let you know. Right, that's, that's the way I look at it.
- [03:38]
Chris
Do you find that in the pursuit of doing the best work possible that the barriers to doing that come from the client side or is it coming from your, your design team?
- [03:48]
Robert Brunner
Oh, definitely from, from the client side. I mean, my team, I have an amazing team actually. I mean I, we often say, you know, about our, our studio, we're in the talent business, right, and, and literally every one of the designers that works for me in industrial design started in our office as an intern and we discovered this thing, right, that we are actually really good at identifying and growing talent. And so that just became how we build our studio. So the main things I, challenges I have with them is sometimes helping them see the forest for the trees or sometimes even pointing out stuff. No, it's that tree, it was right in front of you, you don't see it, et cetera. No. A lot of the resistance we have comes from the client side and then it's kind of the nature of the business I'm in. It's a very complex, expensive, long process to develop and deliver a product into the world takes a lot of money, takes a lot of people, takes a lot of natural resources, takes a lot of time, you know, all these things. And so there's this almost automatic thing that's built into the process of risk mitigation. Right. People are just trying to make it as predictable and understandable as process. But many times that translates into we just want to do what we did last time, we want to do what everybody else does. You know, we, we don't want to spend that extra money, you know, all these things, you know, that kind of take the eye off the prize and more it say, okay, this is a particular process that we need to follow. So. So a lot of that resistance comes there and sometimes you just have to really push through it. Right. I think as long as you have trust, you know, it's something I'm very big on, is building trust with the people who work with you can do that. Right. You can push people through those that fear and get them to do great work. But a lot of times it takes. Sometimes that's what I feel like my job is managing and controlling people.
- [05:49]
Chris
Yeah. Okay. I'd love to just go down that rabbit hole with you on the two sides, the client side, and managing and nurturing creative people. Because both are very difficult, especially for people who are inexperienced with this or don't have a great mentor role model to base it off of. Okay. This is a common, I think, bane to most creative people's lives that clients always seem to interfere with doing high quality work. I have to imagine and, and please correct me where I'm wrong here. A person of your stature with your experience than the pedigree. I would assume that clients come to you at this point to say, we want you to do you challenge our thinking and push boundaries and break stuff because we want your brilliance. Is that not the case?
- [06:29]
Robert Brunner
It is. I mean, it is. People come to me, come to our studio because, because of the level of what we do and the reputation that we have. And, you know, it's just, it's just one of those things. And developing a product, like a lot of things is this sort of 10 inspiration, 90 perspiration thing, right? And then you just gotta roll up your sleeves and get into it. And that's, that's when people start to waver and start, you know, we don't want to take the time, don't want to spend the money. We've never done anything like that before. Our current supply base doesn't support that. You know, all these things that, you know, make it, make it difficult and, you know, that's where you're just like, look, remind them this is why you came to us. Right? And I can't do it alone. I need you, you know, to be able to step up and help push this thing through, you know, and many times that's the difference between a good product and a great product, right? Is sort of being able to really push through those things and, and, and, and, and remove some of Those barriers, which, you know, is scary to people. Right. And that, that's really a lot of times when it comes down to is this fear thing.
- [07:34]
Chris
Right.
- [07:34]
Robert Brunner
It's just, you know, there's, there's a lot, a lot of that in product development because, and, and one of the benefits I have is I work in a large corporation driving their design program. So I know that, you know, people are putting their jobs in the line there. It's not just, you know, if it fails, I'll, you know, I'll be on to my next job, next client. This is their, their livelihood. So. Right. I really understand that. But it's also, at the same time, you know, I think there's a thing in society that's developed that it's sort of the, the idea that not failing is waiting. Right.
- [08:10]
Chris
Yeah.
- [08:12]
Robert Brunner
And, and you know, and that's what breeds mediocrity. The sort of idea of just not, not fucking it up is a victory. So it's something we try and push through.
- [08:21]
Chris
I wanted to ask you this question about clients. Okay. And when you're saying clients sometimes are fearful and they might start with that inspiration, but then there's a lot of work to get us from A to Z and get this thing out the door. There's this balance between doing what is great and maybe what is a project for you. And you said it's their livelihood. So you're sometimes gambling on their livelihood and you're respectful of that and empathetic to their, to their thing where if you guess wrong, they're kind of screwed. Where it's a project for you. How do you find that balance?
- [08:52]
Robert Brunner
You mean the sort of balance of pushing people yet? Yeah, yeah, it's, you know, look, it's. I, as much as I might sound like, you know, we're just going to shove it down someone's throat, it can happen. That's not the reality. I really view our job just doing much more than just delivering a beautiful, well crafted object. Really. We're really, really in the business of helping people transform their business through the things that they make and deliver and how they deliver it. So, you know, it's really important to us to really understand that and be responsible about it and do it and do a, you know, a great piece of design work as well. It's, it's something that occurred in our, in our company that actually really fueled that, is that when I started Ammunition, I had this epiphany that, you know, as designers, we really work cheaply. Right. We sort of, you know, if I Get a good project and I get paid reasonably and I can pay myself and pay my team and I get a good portfolio piece, I'm happy, right? Then I see this thing that we essentially created, this intellectual property we created go out in the world and make hundreds of millions of dollars, right? And, you know, and then at the same time, I'm looking at some of my, my buddies who are software engineers, write some code and think about retiring, right? So we decided to change that and start working in different ways. So we did doing work on revenue sharing, but then also a lot of the startups, we would invest in them and become equity partners in our companies. And that had a really interesting dynamic. I mean, obviously there's a potential for, you know, financial upside. But what it really ended up doing was from, from both sides, from the client side, we no longer were like the vendor, right? We became part of their business and we had, we had skin in the game as well. And so we were respected and listened to. And then from our side, we, you know, we always, you know, took it seriously. But even more so, you start thinking, what, what is it I can do to make this proposition successful beyond, you know, the particular thing in front of me? What can I do? And so it started to build this real sort of partnership mentality about how we worked. And, and so through, like, there was this huge startup boom in technology, hardware, hardware development around 2012 to maybe 2016. It was fueled by the Internet of things, right? And just everything was through the door. And so we did a ton of this work and a ton of these really. We had like, I think, like 40 companies in our portfolio. And, and we just, it just sort of became a way of working, right? Even this, what, what became interesting is even with more traditional relationships where people were paying us our fee, we still behaved that way, which confused the hell out of them, right? Like, why is this industrial designer telling you to do these things? You know, why, you know, but, you know, ultimately it was because we started to really care at such a much higher degree about the success of the things that we do beyond the sort of creative success and, and that, that, you know, ended up really showing in our work. The, the number of products that we designed, it actually shipped went way up. The, the, the, the impact that they had in the market went up, you know, all these things because we sort of really began to embody the sort of the values and beliefs, you know, of the businesses we were working with. And that's so, so that's a long, long answer to your question. Is sort of this balance. Right. Is sort of. And we just take it very seriously, you know, that we're, we're here to help people be successful, not just to design something.
- [12:40]
Chris
I'm just thinking about, like, how you might structure your, your firm now in terms of like, do you have a, like a balanced approach to the kinds of projects you take on where some are commissions, some are investments and equity place and some are rev shares?
- [12:53]
Robert Brunner
Yeah, I mean, it's, there's nothing formulaic about it. I mean, it tends to be, you know, still the, you know, probably 60% or more traditional relationships and the rest to have another component. And, and sometimes the equity is relatively small. It's, you know, it's just so, you know, and sometimes we, you know, we have a model where we'll, you know, take a percentage of our fee and have that turned into equity in some way, you know, and take, take some of our margin and do that. And then the royalty stuff is, is always interesting. It's. We do, we do less of that. It's a little challenging because, you know, you can. When you're working on a pure royalty, you can get all the way through the development and the thing doesn't go to market. Right. And so, you know, it's, it's. It's pretty risky so that we have certain things that we work the way we work around that. But we, but we, you know, had some huge success though, that were just, you know, just, just sort of went through the roof. So. So we will do that. But that's probably the, the lowest percentage I see.
- [14:01]
Chris
When you're meeting a, a potential new client, regardless of the deal that's structured, do you have certain rules where you say that's a red flag? If we don't get that cleared, I'm not moving forward with them. And it'd be great to hear from you because you have like 40 plus years of experience. And when we were still in the service space, we would have to make rules for our salespeople because otherwise every job looked like a great opportunity and we were overwhelmed with the kinds of things that were opportunities that turned out to be totally, totally lame.
- [14:29]
Robert Brunner
Yeah, it's, you know, it's really, it's pretty simple. It's almost always about the people. Okay, right. And who they are and what they're about, what they believe in, what's their purpose and also what they've done. Right. You know, if they've been able to do it. That's the primary thing we tend to look at. I said that Once I think that, you know, money and a good idea are not extraordinary assets. Right. Because people get out, get raise money and do that. And there's a lot of good ideas out there. It's really comes down to, you know, do. Does this individual and their team have the ability to execute on this and do a, do a really good job, really. And because that's, you know, we've had a lot of things we've worked on that were really great ideas, but the, in the end, the team on the other side just couldn't do it. Right. And so you. And, yeah, we got paid and everything, but it's actually a huge loss when you put two years into something and there's a whole opportunity cost of doing that, but also just an emotional cost. Your team has just killed themselves to make this thing happen. And then, you know, the, the company working with just never had the ability to actually be able to deliver it and make it successful. So. And, and, you know, through that, that, you know, all that experience you mentioned, I think we're pretty good at, you know, figuring out in the first couple meetings whether whether this group is really going to be able to do it or not.
- [15:59]
Chris
Is there anything you can tell us that you spot and it's kind of tangible because there are a lot of young people who are listening to this who are like, that's great, Robert. You know, what they are. But how do we know?
- [16:08]
Robert Brunner
Well, I mean, there's certainly, you know, I mean, honestly, sometimes there's. If there's an asshole factor there, it's. And it shows up early. That's a big red flag. Right? You see, that is. So, you know, it. I think it's. And it's, it's really tough to explain. There's this combination of experience and confidence and intellect combined with some humility. Right. That, that, that always is. Is the combination that works, right? Yes. Sometimes arrogance can get you a long way, but it almost always blows up on people. Right?
- [16:55]
Chris
Yeah.
- [16:55]
Robert Brunner
So we, we, we tend to look at that and like. And it's just, again, does anybody in this team have experience in actually delivering a physical product? That doesn't mean you can't, but if you don't. But certainly it's going to be painful and you're going to go through a lot because it's, you know, it's. So we had a really great startup that had amazing technology and we invested a lot in it. Ultimately, the leadership team hadn't. They'd come from different industries and never really gone through the process of creating and delivering a high volume consumer electronics product. And just as what happens in development is as time goes on, the amount of money you spend and the cost of mistakes goes way, way up. Right. And it'll cause people to freeze. It's just like, you know, how am I going to pull the plug on, you know, $3 million of tooling, you know, and you know, $2 million to ramp up the product and so forth, you know, and I don't know if it's going to be successful. And just like, and you know, it's, that's, that fear thing comes up and then, but if you've done it before and you've been through it, you know, it's, and you have an experienced team, it's much easier to do that. So yeah, it's been interesting for me. I mean, right. I mean I've had a few clients recently where I'm sitting across the table from six people that are all 24 years and younger, right. And developing a new piece of AI hardware which is totally cool. I mean really, really dig the energy and so forth. One of my red flags in that situation is if they start, if they're discounting what I say, just because I've done it so much. Right. Which happens. Oh no, man, we don't believe that shit. We're going to know we're going to break all those rules. You know, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna do it our way and that's gonna, you know, and you know, that's commendable. But you just look at it so you know, it's, they're not rules, you know, it's, there's, there's some physics here. Right, right. It's just so, yeah, that, that's, that's always one of the red flags we look for is like, okay, do you really know what you're doing? And, and, or, or at least are you willing to learn? Right?
- [19:15]
Chris
Yeah. That's pretty hilarious because there was a time in advertising where there were so many young people as creative directors and art directors on the agency side when, and we're on the production side where if they use too many buzzwords, we're out. It's like it was just dropping jargon and buzzwords and just sounding too self important and none of them know what, anything about what they're doing at all. So then we're like, yeah, this is going to be a horrible process. I'm not really that interested in working with them. Yeah. And I guess the humility part is maybe we've all been there as young people and thought, I'm going to change the world, I'm going to break everything. And then you get a little bit on the other side of experience and age and then you start to realize how foolish that all sounds.
- [19:57]
Robert Brunner
Well, no, I think that in itself is good and commendable, but if you're going to put blinders on and not take in the information that's available to you to be successful at that, then, then that, then that's a big problem. Right. You know, it was having an energy that's about, look, you know, we're going to do this differently and we're going to create something amazing and this is how we're going to do it. But then when you say, well, okay, that's cool, we're with you, let's make sure we do these pieces, you get it right. Nah, we don't need to do that. You know, you know, we got, we have software, we'll work around that. You know, I try very hard not to sound like, you know, the seasoned veteran that's been there a thousand times, you know.
- [20:41]
Chris
Right. I'm kind of reluctant to bring this up, but you mentioned clients who are a holes, and I know there was a stint that you spent at Apple as director of industrial design and Steve Jobs was not known as the nice guy. He wanted what he wanted and he was a bit of a tyrant. I think if the stories are true, he's a little bit of an a hole. What did you learn at your time at Apple?
- [21:01]
Robert Brunner
Well, first of all, I didn't work with Steve.
- [21:03]
Chris
Okay.
- [21:04]
Robert Brunner
I often, you know, one of my running jokes is I was between Jobs when I was there, but I, but I did work with my fair share of challenging, opinionated people and continue to, you know, one of the key things I think about working with individuals like that is, is do you respect them? Right. You know, because Steve, you would respect. Right. There's no question about it. Yeah, he's treating me like shit. It was actually was that way when I was working with Jimmy Iovine. Beats, you know, Jimmy, brilliant, you know, unbelievable businessman, producer, just, you know, really in many ways created the, the popular music business. Jimmy was a pain in the ass. You know, he. And he, you know, I would get these calls at all hours, you know, robert, what the fuck are you doing? Or, you know, just yelling at me. And. But I finally realized, actually I read this interview with him in Rolling Stone. He was talking about how he worked with his musical artists and how he drove them and he was treating me the exact same way. And he just saw me as an artist. An artist he was going to get the best out of. And so, you know, so I. And I. And as painful and difficult it was and sometimes confusing as hell, I stuck with it because I really respected him and believed in him. Right. And he was. You know, most of the time, he was right. And he. But, you know, at the same time, he was loyal and. And he would admit when you were right and he wasn't. But, you know, that. That usually took. Took a lot to get to that point. So. But, yeah, I think it's. It's a question of whether you. You respect those people, and when you don't and. And they're. They're in your face, you. It becomes very difficult. Right? You. You either have to push through them or go around them or figure out, you know, what you can do, because a lot of times, you know, your. Your success, this. This. This a hole may be the impediment to your own success. So you have to figure it out.
- [23:13]
Chris
Well, we're on the. The topic of, like, iconic brands and what was able to be accomplished by Beats by Dre. And I've heard the. The long untold story about how it was Will I Am's idea, and he shared it with somebody and shared it, and then it became this thing, I thought, with. I think he shared it with Dr. Dre. Do you know about the backstory and the origin of all this stuff?
- [23:35]
Robert Brunner
You know, I. I've actually not heard that one.
- [23:38]
Chris
Okay.
- [23:39]
Robert Brunner
I know from what. I was, you know, I was pretty much there on not day zero, but day one. Right.
- [23:47]
Chris
Okay.
- [23:48]
Robert Brunner
And the story that Jimmy tells, which is a good one, that Dre was originally approached by Adidas to develop some sneakers. Right. And Jimmy had just gone through the process with Steve Jobs of doing the U2 iPod, you know, which. I don't know if you remember that.
- [24:09]
Chris
I do.
- [24:10]
Robert Brunner
Yeah. Which turned out to be really successful.
- [24:12]
Chris
Yeah.
- [24:12]
Robert Brunner
And he really enjoyed that. And he had sort of got this, you know, this thing about, you know, marrying artistry with technology. And. And so his story was when Dre came to him and said, you know, should I be doing this thing with Adidas? Jimmy said, fuck sneakers. Let's do speakers.
- [24:28]
Chris
That's a good line.
- [24:30]
Robert Brunner
So I. But I. You know, while. I know that that story has been, you know, crafted in a way to sound really cool, but I. But I know from the. From Jimmy's experience of working with Steve at Apple and. And, you know, their foundational belief, you know, they're, you know, one of the things that talk about greatness. You know, I'm delivering greatness. What happens is the leaders have a non negotiable purpose. Right. That's above financials. Right. And. And for Jimmy and Dre. For Dre, it was, you know, this idea. I remember the first meeting, he said, people are not hearing my music, you know, and what he meant was. And he said, they go out and listen to it and these, these shitty white earbuds, right? Ironically, that white earbud company bought them. But they, but, you know, his thing was, look, you know, I spend an enormous amount of time crafting a sound. I know how it's supposed to sound. It's not supposed to sound like that. So I want to. I want to fix that. And then, you know, Jimmy, his belief was, look, the music, the even belief was in this. The power of music and the power of connection and the power. The emotional qualities of it, you know, and so, you know, delivering that in a way that, you know, his audience can experience. So, so those were the, you know, and when you listen to people, you can tell what's, you know, what's been an embellished story and what's real. And those, those were real things for them. And so that, you know, so I tend to believe that, you know, this. I don't know if, you know, will I am at that idea at the same time or talk to him about. Or brainstormed about it. You know, those things always, as time goes on, kind of take out, develop a life of their own. But I, you know, I believe the inception story really started with Jimmy and Dre and seeing this opportunity. You know, there's no high performance audio brand for a young market. It just didn't exist. So let's go do that.
- [26:23]
Chris
I've heard Michael Margolis say this in his. In our conversation. He wrote the book story 10x. He said something like a product or service. That story is a commodity. And from the outside, and please correct me everywhere that I'm wrong on this, is that Beats was a product that needed a good story, and Dre was that person. He had such a personal brand that he could attach it to something like that with Jimmy Iovine and make something that was by a lot of the criticism, okay, like, headphones look great. Very iconic, but I think was made by Monster, another audio brand.
- [26:58]
Robert Brunner
Monster was the partner originally. Yes.
- [27:00]
Chris
Yeah. And Monster, very people know about, but Beats, they know a lot about.
- [27:05]
Robert Brunner
Yeah, yeah, no, that's absolutely true. That's 100% true that, you know, the story attached to the product was the accelerant. Right. It just really pushed it and pushed it into the cultural conversation right away. And, yeah, that's just, you know, I mean, I think, you know, we did our part. We really understood, you know, the. The whole idea of headphones are hard inside, they're difficult. And so they end up being really driven functionally through all the things that make them successful. Acoustics and reliability and adjustability and all that. And so they end up with these being. Having these mechanisms on your head. You know, where we saw, well, hey, this is. This is actually wearable technology. You know, how do we make it desirable for people to wear? They feel good about how they look with it. And. And, yeah, iconic, right? You can, you can, you could. From 25ft away, you can see that product and what it is. You know, so. But without that, that cultural conversation that Jimmy and Dre were creating and the ability to associate it with all their friends and so forth. I mean, one of my favorite stories, you've probably heard me say this on other things, but I. It's. It's great that when we were launching the first product, we were meeting at the Consumer Electronics show in Las Vegas, and I asked Jimmy, Jimmy, what's the marketing plan here? What do we do with this to get this thing out in the world? And Robert, our marketing strategy is a lot of people owe me a lot of favors. And it's true. It's just like everybody he knew would wear the headphone, would be seen with the headphone, be photographed with the headphone. Right? And it just sort of built this, this, this momentum and association, which, you know, the whole, you know, celebrity marketing thing has been done, but I think it's been done differently. And, and honestly, I was there, the individuals who were involved in the brand, it wasn't just a pay for play thing. You know, they really respected Jimmy and they loved the product. And yes, some were involved financially, a lot of work weren't. And. And so, you know, it was just became this sort of, again, this and that. That is a transformative thing. Right? When you put those headphones on and you feel this connection to Dre or Will I Am or Lady Gaga or whoever, right? That is a transformative thing for people. It's just extremely powerful.
- [29:30]
Chris
Yeah, I think it was one of those cases where the right influencers really move the culture. And once you saw your heroes, these artists that you respect and love and live by, and they're seen with these things that just, you know, you're one. One tiny little step closer to them by having the product. I went to our center and I. I was. I found a lot of kinship with the people in the industrial design program. They worked the hardest and had incredible craftsmanship, like drafting skills, and I could see that. And a fairly typical thing to do is to always criticize the generation coming after you as not as capable and not as good. I thought this must be going on forever because it's always like, it was better in my day. And now, having said that, do you think that over the last couple of decades that craft has been lost a little bit in. In the way that we learn, in the way that we practice?
- [30:20]
Robert Brunner
Yes. It's also different.
- [30:22]
Chris
Yeah.
- [30:22]
Robert Brunner
You know, there's certain. And when I look at the way we do things versus the way. When I started, I worked on a drafting machine and with an HP calculator. Right. And. And math was a big part of my job. I mean, I had to know how to geometrically describe things. And all that has been fully automated now. And the beauty is you can take all that time and put it somewhere else. So our process involves really advanced CAD tools, advanced visualization tools, 3D printing. We're now doing more AI tools and higher degree of automation. But there's still this thread that runs through about, you know, iterating and playing with and tweaking and doing all these things that you do just to, you know, to get it in its best possible shape. That's. That those are things that a lot of people don't agree with me, I don't think can be automated. You know, it's. It's a very human pursuit. And so that. That still exists. Now. The one thing I do and. And I think our studios reflects this, that, you know, I. My. My formative years in my career, I worked a lot with my hands. I mean, made stuff. I went out in the shop myself, cut out the material, shaped it, painted it, did everything right. And there was, I think, an important part of that, that sort of visceral aspect of working with the thing you're making and constructing and so forth, that sometimes gets lost because we're working in. Working on screen in 3D, we're doing prints and so forth, but that. That same sort of, you know, really understanding what a, you know, two and a half millimeter radius looks like and how I make it and so forth, you know, and the tangencies and all the things, you know, you do. So I do. You know, that's why we have a shop. And that's why we continue impressing people that go out and make that. Right, let's go out and build that. Because I think it's, it's. While it may not be as necessary as it used to be, you know, from a technical point of view, it's certainly from, I think a process and learning point of view really a really valuable thing and shouldn't be let go of.
- [32:32]
Chris
It seems like all the designers I really respect and look up to make a strong point about getting your hands in it, prototyping and testing. Because one thing that we don't get on the screen is a sense of scale, even in simple print terms. So I'm going to do a beautiful layout and the first thing I'll say is, have you printed that out yet? Because can you even read that? Because on screen you could zoom in and zoom in, it's not a problem. And when they print it out, it's like, yeah, I might be getting old, but you know, I don't think a normal person can read this. Given that it's four point type. It doesn't make sense. And when you see how fabric moves or the way it feels against your skin, there's something to be said about just being able to hold something. The physicality part of it.
- [33:09]
Robert Brunner
Yeah. The amount of learning that happens in that is incredible. And again, it can't be duplicated. Of actually getting this actual representation at scale of what you're doing, sitting in front of it, testing it, showing it to other people, letting them see if they can do it right. All those things right. You can't do that. And yeah, it's always amazing to me how still something looks good on screen, rotating the model. It's beautiful. We run the prints and you get it and it's proportionately wrong. You can't see it on the screen until you get it and hold it or put it on someone's head.
- [33:45]
Chris
In the remaining minutes that we have together, I want to kind of tee you up for this question. Years ago, I read this article in Wired magazine and it affected me in a lot of different ways. It was titled something the Good Enough Revolution, where there was a time and age when we wanted the very best of everything. But if it's good enough and it's cheaper and easier to use, has higher utility, it's good enough. The example they talked about in the article was drones replacing fighter jets. A, if a drone goes down, no one dies. B, they can have a, like an airplane in the air 24,7 to be able to deploy at any point. But that seems to be going right up against this idea of making great things and why doing something really well, why great design can get people to love your company or tell a story. Where do you net out on that?
- [34:32]
Robert Brunner
Well, you know, it's. We talk about this for an hour probably. You know, there's, there's a lot, a lot in there you're talking about. I mean, one thing that I think is really important about things, products, objects, physical things, it goes to a lot of things is there. I mean, it's one of the reasons I got in this profession was I found it fascinating the relationship that people have with things, right? Beyond objects and the attachment of you mentioned stories and emotions. And they use it to define who they are. Right. In many ways. And so it's a really interesting relationship and that, you know, and I think part of what's behind that is, especially today is that, you know, people ultimately want to connect with other people. Right? Ultimately there's a lot when you step back and look at so many things and go on society has to do with connecting and yet we're getting further and further away from people, right, in terms of the way we communicate and so forth. So, you know, for me, when you get a product and it, and it feels a certain way and it does a job really well and you know, I start thinking about the person who spent the time to figure this out. Literally for me, right, there's, there's a connection that occurs, you know, with someone else, unknown individual out there that spent the time to, to get the experience you're having, right? And so I think that's, that's a really important thing that for me is going to keep this sort of automation in check about what we do, because I don't think that's something that can be. But yeah, the, the, the thing about, you know, talking about mediocrity and, you know, this, this, you know, this sort of good enough and fear of failure is that, you know, honestly, the mediocrity can cost you more than any failure ever could. It's, it's. People don't realize this sort of, I'm just going to be safe. I was talking about easier, you know, and, you know, and greatness doesn't come easy. You know, it isn't packaged or polished or perfect. It asks for sweat and effort and then sometimes pain, you know, it asks you to stand in the fire, right, when you could, you know, be in the shade of mediocrity. So it's, you know, and, and it's not about perfection. And it's not about grinding until you break it. It's about breaking free from this trap of good enough. And, and that's, that's the thing that I, I, I really get disconcerted about when it's, you have this sort of pervasive idea that you know it's good enough, you know, it's, it's pretty good. So let's, let's be happy with that and move forward when that's, that's always going to be a barrier to doing more right. So I think that when talk a lot about AI and they said we use it quite a bit in sort of automation the tasks. And for example, we used to spend, we actually got really good at building contextual images of sort of using combining 3D CAD and Photoshop and some other tools and dropping something into reality in the photograph that looked like reality and you couldn't tell. And it was a big part of our process and we built up a really great skill at that. All gone. Right. So don't need it anymore. But like I said, that frees you up to do something else. So that's grabbing and using these tools. But you can see it in terms of like some of the, when you were using, using Mid Journey and really using prompts to develop concepts and they're never right, you know, they're, but they're, they're good sort of provocative things. But, you know, you can see that tool's going to get better and better and it'll be much more responsive to the prompts you put in and be able to produce things. But, you know, I don't believe they'll ever hit that level of connectivity and greatness that an individual sweating and grinding to get it just right will. Right. And so that's something. And not everybody agrees with me on that, but I have a hard time believing that we're going to be able to just design products via the prompts now. That said, I do believe our role is moving a little more towards producer, editor, director than more of that than it used to be, which I'm totally cool with because I think that's pretty much what I do right now anyway. And so, but I still think, I guess, that the human, human part of the equation is not going to evaporate.
- [39:12]
Chris
As you're working on a project. How do you know you reach that point where it feels like it's time to stop? This is, this is great.
- [39:20]
Robert Brunner
You know, that is one of the biggest skills experience gives you because, yeah, I mean, it's hard to Stop designing. Right. It's hard to start, you know, when you sort of get this point and you think, I could just be a little better. And that was, I mentioned earlier, this notion of seeing, you know, how. Helping my team see the right tree. Right. Not just the forest, but. No, this is the right tree because you can be right in front of people. But yeah, it is. It's an important thing. It's like there's a certain point where, you know, if you keep investing in something, you start to move away from that purity of an idea you had. Right. And you keep tweaking and tweaking and tweaking and tweaking. So it is important to know when to stop. And again. But I think that comes from, actually, that comes from the school of screwing stuff up because you went too far. You still realize, all right, it's time to stop and let's move forward. And, and there's another thing that I think is a problem in what we do is that not everybody will agree with me of this, but I, you know, sometimes it's important to get something out into the world, even if it's not exactly the, you know, quite what you wanted. Right, right. Because. Because sometimes that, that taking that time to do it will. You lose the opportunity. But probably more importantly, you learn so much when you put a product out there. And, and, and I've seen again, again, the research that version 1.2 of something always does exponentially better than version 1.
- [40:53]
Chris
Right.
- [40:53]
Robert Brunner
Because, you know, you're able to really learn and learn, you know, what, what, what, what is working out in the world. And, and you'll always be surprised by that. You think you got it all figured out and you put something out and, and, and you, and there's so much that you either missed or misunderstood or there's something that new that's happened that's changed that.
- [41:11]
Chris
It's such a tricky position for creative people to be in, whatever your discipline is, because there's this thing where we want to make something perfect. Maybe that's not possible, but we try to, and then we never release anything. So we don't have the opportunity to learn from that first iteration and be able yet. We also don't want to release something prematurely because it can create a lot of waste in the world. Wasted paper, wasted materials, and wind up in the landfill. That feels really irresponsible. So there's just this very narrow window that you got to just hit and it's not easy to do. Otherwise everyone would be great. I remember when I was A lot younger. And I was working for somebody. I was just working on something like, I don't know what the finish line looks like, so I have to show someone. And they're like, yeah, you did it, or you actually overworked it. And that's another problem too. You just, you overworked it. Now it feels very contrived or just unnecessary at some point. And it's, it's not an easy thing. This creative path that we all choose. Do you have anything that you can share to someone who might be in their early to mid-20s, who's just, like, out in the world, and how do they save themselves from some of this pain? Robert?
- [42:21]
Robert Brunner
Well, you're going to go through it and learn. I mean, that's the first thing is like, you know, really everything is a learning experience. So if it, if it doesn't go exactly you want, where you want it, don't beat yourself up about it. Learn and move on. Right. Because you don't want to get into this sort of paralysis, you know, because I, I don't want to take any risk because I didn't do it. Right. And then, you know, I, I, I would say, you know, as far as sort of getting a design to a point and deciding when it's good enough is, is have, have a group of people that you really respect to help you with that, you know, because it always, and I have the same problem. My nose gets too close to it, right. And you just, you can't see it. So, you know, and I, I really respect my team. You know, one of my, early in my career, someone told me this thing which stuck with me is you're only as strong as the backs of the people who carry you, right. And hire people that are better than you hire. And I think it sometimes surprises my team, you know, with some modern staff designer, you know, been doing it for four years. And like, I mean, what do you think of this? You think this is a good idea? And they're like, what? But, you know, I think, you know, getting impact, input from the people you respect is, is really helpful. And, and then also the thing that goes with that, though, is you don't have to always take their input either. Right. You can judge whether, okay, that's valid or not.
- [43:44]
Chris
Yeah.
- [43:45]
Robert Brunner
But I think exposing an idea to people that you trust and respect is really important. And then just, just go with it, Go with your gut instinct is, is, you know, is always a really important part of the process.
- [44:01]
Chris
Wonderful. Before I let you go, I just have a couple of quick Questions for you. Kind of rapid firestyle, if you don't mind.
- [44:06]
Robert Brunner
All right, let's do it.
- [44:07]
Chris
As an industrial designer and person who champions craft, what are some objects that you just really love because of how they're made or the process of the story?
- [44:18]
Robert Brunner
I always hate questions like this because, you know, I just go blank.
- [44:22]
Chris
Yeah, well, I can help you. Like, are there certain kinds of clothing brands that you love?
- [44:27]
Robert Brunner
Or, you know, my. My clothing brands are. Tend to be rag and bone in theory. You know, I just love it, you know, clean, you know, sophisticated, but not pretentious. You know, kind of feel of it. I, you know, that. That's kind of kind of me. I. You know, objects like, I. There's. There's a. There's a number of them that I just continue to look at and I'm amazed by. So one of them is, which I. I've owned this thing for, I would say at least 35 years, is a TZO lamp by Richard Sapper, Right. Which is a. Is a design classic. Right. So there's no. No doubt Iran, you know, but it's one of those things. Every time I look at it, I'm just fascinated by the mechanism and how it moves and how it's sculptural and, you know, the. The way that it's. It's so. It's. It's almost alive. Right. So there's things like that. I. I've always been a Porsche 911 maniac, so those machines, you know, that I've had and I have one now, I just. And it's beyond the, you know, that there's, of course, the sort of visceral excitement of driving the vehicle and the connection to the road, but it's just such a great machine and it's. And I just am always enjoying that, you know, and the fact that I can. I can hear the engine, I can smell the engine right. When I'm in the car. Right. Stuff like that.
- [45:52]
Chris
Can I. Can I just pause you there and ask you about automobiles real quick? Are you a fan of Aston Martin's?
- [45:57]
Robert Brunner
Not the recent ones. And in the past, like, when you go back to the DB7 was just like an amazing, amazing vehicle. Craftsmanship is incredible. I think they've kind of lost a little bit on aesthetics, because I talked.
- [46:09]
Chris
To Jason Freed about this. He says, whether you love him or not, the thing you respect is there's nothing that's decorative. Everything that you see, if it looks like wood is made from wood. If it looks like metal, made from metal. And he Appreciates that a lot.
- [46:22]
Robert Brunner
Yeah. Well, if you look at that, that the cars that they did especially like, you know, 15 years ago, the impact that those vehicles had on the automotive industry. You see it, those forms everywhere. Yeah, they're just really, really, really, really amazing.
- [46:38]
Chris
Okay, here's what we're gonna do. I'm gonna ask you like six or seven categories. You just say anything. It doesn't matter. Okay. We'll get, we'll get to keep this short. I'm nervous on time here. Okay. Favorite chair?
- [46:50]
Robert Brunner
The chair. Go ahead.
- [46:55]
Chris
See, is this the industrial designer who draws a blank when asked about industrial design?
- [47:01]
Robert Brunner
Well, no, many. Well, I mean, I have my Ames lounge chair, which is again, in the classic. But there's the low pad chair that I love as well.
- [47:09]
Chris
A shelving system.
- [47:10]
Robert Brunner
Oh, behind me. I don't know if this easy shelving. It's actually a factory shelving. It's all made out of anodized aluminum. It's beautiful. I put that in like a number of offices and homes too.
- [47:24]
Chris
Wonderful. Your favorite drawing instrument?
- [47:27]
Robert Brunner
Oh, you know, my, my. A uni pin fine line 0.5. I buy them by the dozens.
- [47:35]
Chris
This is a. You're talking about uni ball.
- [47:37]
Robert Brunner
Yeah, no, it's, it's the fine lines. The fine tip. One.
- [47:40]
Chris
The fine tip. A musical device. Could be a stereo system, it could be speakers, it could be headphones, whatever.
- [47:46]
Robert Brunner
You know, it's, it's, it's a bit self serving, but my, my current iteration of the Beats pill.
- [47:54]
Chris
Okay.
- [47:55]
Robert Brunner
Just love it. Just take it everywhere.
- [47:57]
Chris
A timepiece.
- [47:59]
Robert Brunner
Oh, I have a, A ratto watch. You know, this ceramic watch that I don't wear that much, but it's just so beautiful. And that finish is perfect.
- [48:10]
Chris
Here's the last one. An eyeglass company.
- [48:14]
Robert Brunner
Oh, Matsunaga. Well, because I wear them and I bought like four frames from them.
- [48:19]
Chris
It's great. Oh, wonderful, Robert. It was, it was amazing to talk to you and kind of get your perspective on design. I know we could have gone down the rabbit hole of AI, but that seems to be the topic du jour. And that's all fine. And you know, if people, if people want to find out more about what you're doing, your adventures and what you're up to. Where should we send them?
- [48:41]
Robert Brunner
Probably the best place is. So my Instagram is Robert Ebrenner. Robert D. Brenner.
- [48:46]
Chris
And then.
- [48:47]
Robert Brunner
And then Ammunition is at. Ammunition Group is typically where you'll see the most current stuff popping up. And, and you can always DM me through it if you want to get a hold of me?
- [48:57]
Chris
Well, thanks very much for doing this with me.
- [48:59]
Robert Brunner
Oh, it's fantastic, Chris. I loved it, Sam.