B (2:12)

To become the nemesis.

A (2:14)

Yeah. And it could be that they're neither. Right. If they're lucky verbally.

B (2:18)

Yes.

A (2:18)

Right. And so. Yeah.

B (2:20)

Okay, can we. Can we go back to your childhood growing up in Boston? What kind of school, neighborhood did you grow up in where you're being made to feel very much other?

A (2:28)

Yeah, I was. We were one of three families of color in town. My parents came from India. My dad, rest in peace, was from a family of 10, my mom from a family of nine. Sort of the classic immigrant story. They left everyone and everything behind. And so they did not have a support system. It was just them and us. And my parents were also being bullied. If I think back on it, I just didn't, you know, now those memories come as a child, but, you know, we had things like, you know, it was called smart fart. Maybe that's a compliment. I had things.

B (3:01)

I've not heard that before. This is interesting.

A (3:03)

Smart fart. Smart fart. Have you ever heard that?

B (3:05)

No. Okay, Maybe I sound smart enough.

A (3:09)

Yeah. I don't know. I had trash thrown at me at lunch. It would, you know, usually sit alone. I had the. We had the N and S word. Two racial slurs. I won't say. They were spray painted in front of our driveway. And my parents couldn't afford to actually repave it. So it stayed there for a while until the New England weather took care of it. Today, what might be considered a hate crime. Also my parents, because they were in survival mode. You know, my dad used to say, keep your head down, work hard, stay out of trouble, and you're going to get recognized. And so they didn't want to cause trouble. Right. And so if that happened, God forbid, in my neighborhood now, I'd be advocating. If it happened to my neighbor, happened to you, I'd be calling and saying, this happened. We need law enforcement here. But we didn't report it, and neither did our neighbors. Right. No one else said anything about it either. And so that kept escalating. Yeah.

B (4:09)

Throughout my childhood, when I talk about personal branding, I describe the villain and the hero almost exactly the same. They both have some kind of traumatic experience in their life. And how they deal with adversity determines if they can become the hero or the villain. And if you look at Bruce Wayne, lost his parents, became a hero, and then say, the Joker did not become the hero in the story. And they both have had adversity in their life. And so when we hear stories like this, about the kind of bullying that you had based on the color of your skin or your accent or your culture. It's hard to hear. I went through this, but I didn't have somebody spray painting things on our. On our driveway. I didn't have to deal with that. And so how did. How did you transform that moment to becoming the person that you are today?

A (4:58)

Well, the moment that I talk about now that was really pivotal was my freshman year of high school. I was in an intro to physical sciences class. I was a science geek. I was really excited to be in this class. And there was a lab portion to the class. There was two boys who had decided that I would be their target that year. I had hair down to my knees. And I still remember Chris really vividly. I would be in the hallway and they would grab my braid and be like, nay, like a horse. Like, I can still remember that feeling. One of them sat behind me, and if I didn't pass the papers back fast enough, he would hold my head back against the desk. And all these things are happening. And it escalated one day that they decided to set my hair on fire in class. And so I'm sitting with my lab partner. We're at these benches. It's probably been six weeks into the class. She has not talked to me the entire six weeks. And she says to me, I think your hair is on fire. I smell hair burning. And what they were doing was they were lighting these matches and throwing them into my braid. And so this goes on, and then it stops. Because I realize what's happening and what happens that's really. That's really interesting that day is that I'm called into the principal's office with them, made to feel like I did something wrong. They are. They never call my parents, by the way. They suspend the boys for a day. They're back in class to terrorize me. But what happened that day that was really interesting and I still remember this is the guidance counselor was the track and cross country coach, because the guidance counselor got involved. And I am athletically challenged, if you ask anyone who knows me. I'm not very coordinated, but I can run fast. And I think this guidance counselor, this coach, sensed that in me, and it wasn't even an option. And I was too shy and introverted because of all the things that happened to me to say no. He forced me to join the team. And it was the first time in my life that sports became this equalizer. I'd never been introduced to sports, but suddenly I wasn't the fastest. I wasn't the slowest. These girls looked at me with a different level of respect. And also, he was, other than my parents, the first person who was an ally for me, me. Who stood up for me. You know, I think about Chris sort of like you Google X's, you know, over the years, it's like, you know, these bullies that I could be Googling the two of them, but I'm like, where were their parents? Where was law enforcement? Where were the teachers? So when you ask me what I'm so worried about for my children. Right. This. These are the things that I think about. And it's an analogy for the workplace. These things are happening every day. And are we looking out for each other? But that was a pivotal moment, and it still drives me to this day. I mean, it was a very clear example of exclusion. But you don't want anyone. I never want anyone to feel like they don't have a place where they feel like they belong.

B (8:00)

It pains me to hear this because I was bullied and picked on for the exact same reasons that you're talking about. And my recourse is we're going to have to get into a fight. I'm not a big, athletic guy. You can see. I'm still not a big athletic. But my older brother, who's four years older than me, just told me the one thing that the bullies don't want to do is somebody who stands up. And even though you're gonna get your butt kicked, you just have to go for it. And it's like, it's easy to say. It's hard to do.

A (8:27)

Yes.

B (8:28)

But this is where I think there might be different standards for boys, where it's like, let's. Let's go. Yeah, I was never gonna throw down.

A (8:34)

Yeah. I was never encouraged to fight. But you're probably right. That's true. But then what am I doing with my son? He's learning taekwondo.

B (8:42)

There you go.

A (8:44)

I think you'll, you know, hopefully he's taller and, you know, he's. You'll grow as he's meant to grow.

B (8:49)

Yeah.

A (8:50)

Healthy and happy. But, yeah, it's. And my daughter as well, you know, my daughter as well.

B (8:54)

What I've learned about bullies and. And this continues on regardless of what age you are, because it's happening right now in our political space that if you push back, they just look for an easier person to push on. Right. And it sucks because they have their tendency. And as long as it's not you, I guess it's Better. It's not like you're going to cure the problem. But I did get into fights with these boys and they, they would now say, okay, we're going to find someone else. And they would move on. And it's too bad now, luckily for some of them, they did get in trouble and they were kicked out of school and they were crying and it's like, okay, yeah, you see what happens there?

A (9:31)

Yeah.

B (9:31)

So it's unfortunate. I was just thinking about this new book that you're writing called Devil Emails at Midnight. Do these experiences translate into the ideas behind the book?

A (9:45)

Well, the ideas behind the book, I write a lot about how to survive a toxic workplace. How to survive a toxic boss. That's the number one DM people will send me. Here's something horrible happening. What can I do? How do I get out of the workplace? And those are important conversations to have. But I've often thought to myself, what if I am that bottom bad boss? What if I'm doing something? And that's the genesis of the book, the Devil Emails at Midnight. What good leaders can learn from bad bosses. Bad bosses aren't born bad bosses. Bad, bad bosses are made. Right? And I've been a bad boss. And chances are, so have you or anyone who's listening to us right now. And so that to me is the, the self reflection and also relating it to the earlier experiences. I can say now I have empathy for those bullies and you can say, these are the people who set your hair on fire and you have empathy for them or, well, I wonder what was going on for them in their lives that they were doing this to me, they were 15, right? So what was their home life like? Was someone bullying them? Like what was going on for them? And the same thing for bad bosses, right? You know, what's going on for them that they feel like they can come to work and lash out and treat people this way. Whether it's like the micromanaging, which is annoying, all the way to the boss who, you know, screamed and yelled and threw a Chanel shoe at a colleague. True story, right? You're like, what? Why? Why? And so that to me is, I think from my childhood, childhood experiences, I look at things with a more empathetic lens than I would when you use.

B (11:07)

The word bad boss or toxic boss. What are the characteristics? I'm going to go through my own mental checklist here. When have I been a bad boss? Because I've emailed and DM my team at all hours of the night, but there it comes With a caveat that respond to whenever you want. It's not meant to. That need a needed reply on. On your own time. I just need to get off my mind so I can work on the next. Go on to the next thing.

A (11:33)

Yeah. So, okay, so the emailing at midnight gets a lot of interest. But here's the thing. I talk about this in the opening chapter. This was the boss who never had time for me except at midnight. So I chased her around like the golden retriever in the office. I really wanted her time. I just wanted her to say hi and see me. I even chased her out into the parking lot one time to be like, hey, like, can you look at this? Can we have. And she never made time for me except she would dump her inbox out 10pm and, you know, 2am and so it's this idea. If you don't have, you know, what's the biggest complaint in relationships? You don't have enough time for me. And if that's the only time that you make for your teams because you're just dumping your inbox out, what does that say? So there's. That there's micromanaging. You hired me to do a job, but you don't trust me to do it, and you just enjoy doing my job instead. And so that's something, you know, we see a lot. The boss who's completely disengaged for whatever reason, they don't care about their career anymore, but they're in charge of leading all these people. You know, the boss who's incredibly kind but completely incompetent, that's one of the more dangerous ones, right? Because I've had the boss who was incredibly mean and completely incompetent. And all of the bosses, Chris, as you know in the book, are nicknamed by, you know, like a Disney villain or Marvel character. I've got Medusa and the sheriff. I've got the napper. I've got Tony Soprano. That's an interesting one. That's about loyalty at all costs. And with one phone call, he could kill your career. And that's about talent hoarding, why we don't let people go to what they're meant to do next. The boss who punished me for being pregnant, you know, who was also a woman. And so there's lots of different, you know, I only go through 13, but I think a lot of these behaviors, and that's the point of what I write about. When they swing in extremes. When they swing in extremes. I know my toxic behavior is micromanagement, and I Have to watch for that in myself and when that might get exacerbated. And generally, when does that happen? When does my bad boss behavior come out? There's really three moments. It's like, one, something's happening in the marketplace. Tariffs, competitions outpaced you and innovation failed. There's stress. Number two, your boss is behaving badly and is stressed. And as we say in my house, poo poo trickles down. It's coming down to you. And then the third is something happens in your personal life that really sort of upheaves everything. You've lost someone you love, a miscarriage, a divorce, breakup, empty nesting, somebody's sick, you know, all you're sick, all of those things. And so that's when, like anytime there's stress, anytime there's some external agitation, that's when these behaviors will come out.

B (14:26)

Do you help people who are on the receiving end of that or the ones that are holding the gun?

A (14:31)

Well, this is the point of the book. I've helped a lot of people on the receiving end of it. And my question is, why is there so much conversation on how we can survive these things and create the exit plan and learn how to manage your boss and have this conversation and give feedback. It's like, what about the people who are doing it? Can we talk to them? Right. Like, if I'm the bad boss, like, that's what, that's who the book is for. And the book is not for the people who are the worst of the worst bosses that made headlines. Those people aren't going to read the book, but it's for the rest of us who want to do better.

B (15:02)

Well, ideally, you, you solve the problem at its source, at the root, and then you save a lot of people. Trauma and having to develop survival systems. But I, I would imagine that some of these toxic bad bosses don't think of themselves that way. And the reason why they're bad is they're not looking to improve. They're not self reflective, they're not empathetic. And so the likelihood of them changing is pretty low. You'd have to go above them, the boss's boss, to get them to change or to remove them. Right?

A (15:32)

Absolutely. I mean, I had one moment in my career where I worked for Medusa, and I call her that for a reason. There was nobody in my life, Chris, until that point, like, nobody had ever screamed at me. Not my parents, not my brother, not my husband, not my friends. Nobody ever shouted at me this way. And I show up in the workplace and she Screams, she yells, she drops F bombs like no one I've ever heard, publicly and privately humiliates the team. And this is the same boss who would throw pens, have temper tantrums, threw her Chanel shoe right at us, and she wore lots of Chanel. And it's like, you know, why is that tolerated? And to your point, you know, at this point in my career, this woman had led one team. 12 people on that team turnover, and then she goes to lead another team, and I have to join that team. And as you know, sometimes early in your career, you don't have a choice. You want to stay at this company, It's a big beauty company. You've got to move to the team. By the time I leave, the Entire team of 12 is turned over as well. And so to your point, where's the accountability? Why are you going to Let close to 24 people leave in less than 18 months, two years, and you keep that one person.

B (16:52)

What kept you showing up to work? Because you're a smart, educated person, a plus student. I'm sure you're doing great. Why do we show up to jobs that don't treat us fairly?

A (17:04)

Well, the interesting part is that there was. The red flags were there when I interviewed for the job when I first joined this company. And I always say, I love a good movie trailer. I always say, the interview process is the movie trailer. Like, pay attention. And guess what? I wanted this big brand name on my resume, right? I wanted to be able to tell my family and friends I was working here. And so when you get that, you're like, I'm going to leave. And also my parents, we grew up in survival mode. I was no longer in survival mode. But for so much of my career, I've acted that way. You know, I need this paycheck. I don't have a choice. Like, I have to work at a top company and collect a paycheck and just go up the ladder. That's the only path, and it's the most secure path. And so I think there's that. I think also what happens to many of us is when you're in these situations, you don't realize, but you start to lose pieces of yourself when someone continuously. You're stupid. That was so dumb. Don't come back into this office again. There's no way you're gonna ever present at a customer all the things that happen over and over, and it starts to chip away at you. And then you start the downward spiral because you're so unhappy to be there. But you don't have the energy to start looking. And I always tell people where there's smoke, there's fire. So as soon as you feel like something is up. And I wish, Chris, early on in my career I had trusted my instincts. I didn't. I ignored them a lot. And as soon as, you know, it's not like everyone can afford to resign tomorrow, but start crafting that exit strategy then. Don't wait until you're in the downward spiral. And then it just becomes so hard to get out. And then last thing I'll say is I think every industry can create bad bosses. I know they can, but there is this idea of that some industries I think can be exceptional at creating bad Bostons. And what do I mean by that? This was a big beauty brand. This was back in the day, one of the places to be. Me, you don't want to deal with this. There's 10 people that have a line out the door. Today I'm buying beauty brands off Instagram. The world's changed, right? I can start a brand from my kitchen sink. It wasn't that way. There was, you know, probably five to ten global big beauty brands. And if you don't want that, sort of similar to Hollywood or investment banking, similar to these moments where you have these companies where it's like this is the company to work at. And I won't mention, but you know, and then all of a sudden they're in the news and no one wants to work there. But for those moments, for those few years, everybody wants to work there. And so people are okay with the revolving door because we'll just find another meetup.

B (19:45)

You know, as you were talking, I was just thinking about like how these situations happen. And I was drawing a parallel in my mind. One was the Harvey Weinstein situation where I think everybody in Hollywood knew. They call it the casting couch. And you think it's a joke or it's like a stereotype for Hollywood to portray, but it's definitely real. And they all knew and they just turned a blind eye and nobody spoke up. And you kind of feel really bad for all his victims because yeah, if you wanted to be on a top tier art in prestigious film, this is the path and this is how you had to do it. And there's no other way. So in, in your circumstance now I understand this was the hot brand that you needed this on your resume so this, this could become a stepping stone. So maybe sometimes out of determination, stubbornness, I'm gonna survive this. I'm gonna get through It. But I need this thing on the resume to stick so that I can move on to other things. One thing I wanted to ask you. There's two questions. One is the statement that is the question is that I think people don't understand this fully. And I've learned this through therapy that oftentimes when we. Or when we grow up in a pretty toxic environment, that's normal for us. So when we go to another toxic environment, oddly enough, as twisted as it is, it feels like home. It feels normal, and it's really bizarre. So for people who can't understand that, I just want to put that out there. Oftentimes, patterns in life repeat themselves as a mirror to our childhood. So until you get right with that, you're going to either be seeking this out or feeling way more comfortable than you're supposed to. Okay, Just saying that. Put it out there. The question I have for you is this is while you're experiencing this kind of Devil Wears Prada maybe moment, this is where Devil again is. Were you in a relationship with anybody? Were you married in this time? Because I wanted to know how you process this when you brought this home. Potentially.

A (21:37)

Yeah, I was married, still happily married to my husband and a very happy, healthy marriage. Who was one of the people who said, you have to get out. Like, what are you doing? Him and a few friends. I'll never forget, I had friend with the dinner, and I was like a shell of myself. And I. What also happens in these moments is you cut yourself off socially from people, because some people will say, well, I don't understand why you're still there. Just resign. What's the big deal? And we just talked about all the things that are happening. But no, I was in a very healthy, happy marriage. Still am. I think what you said was so interesting, and I thought this was the question you were going to ask is like, I think because of my childhood, I have been attracted to toxic bosses and toxic workplaces. Right. I think if I think about it from that way, that's the question I thought you were going to ask, is that. Yeah, I do think that I've actually been excited by red flags. Because you think you can, you know, you can change it. Oh, this is a dumpster fire. I'm going to go in and fix this. Or I can change this person or I can just outwork them. Because I can. Didn't always work smart, but I was one of the hardest workers. Right. I can outwork anybody. And I think about that now that I have been attracted to some of these places.

B (22:45)

Yeah, I was afraid of asking that question, but it was on my own. No, you can ask me anything. Well, because it feels like full transparency. The reason why I didn't ask you that question is because I don't want to blame you for. I was just trying to create empathy for people.

A (23:02)

But it's like what you said. Some of the things that you experience in your childhood, patterns, like having been bullied so often it's like, well, what's another bully? It's just sort of what I think is supposed to happen. And so that is a pattern now that I recognize. Absolutely.

B (23:18)

If we find ourselves all of a sudden realize, wait a minute, I'm in a situation right now. How do I know that I'm in a situation? Or you mentioned the word red flags. Because the thing that shocks me is people are in bad situations. That's normal. So they don't even know that it's bad. They just like, no, this is the way it always is, isn't it? How do we. How does someone who's not aware that they're in a really bad situation recognize that?

A (23:43)

So I love to think about things. Facts versus feelings. We all have feelings about things. But I've throughout my life, had career journals because I'm a writer and I love writing. But it's documenting things that are happening at work. And this isn't to bring it to hr. I'm not saying that you shouldn't, but it's more to sort of think, are you imagin things, things. Are you being overly sensitive? Sometimes it's the inner voice that tells you you're being overly sensitive, not someone else. Right. And so if you were to actually lay it out and have a friend, a trusted friend look at it, how would they respond? And you know what's really interesting? When you're out to coffee with a friend or dinner and you actually tell them things that are happening at work, and there's like silence because it's not normal. You've normalized it. And so that's part of understanding what are the facts of things that are happening? What are you observing? What are the patterns? And then to find someone trusted to share it with, to say, what do you think about this? And you know, I've done that, especially with that friend at dinner where she was like, hadn't seen me in like a year. And I was like a shell of myself, not only physically, but the light was gone from my eyes. And she this is not normal. This is not. This is not worth it. And you Know my husband saying it was important, but to have a friend say it, that I was close to, that I had known longer, you're sort of like, you know, finding people who can be a mirror and show back what you're experiencing, I think is really important. In this experience with Medusa, that boss that I had, we were all experiencing it on the team. So sometimes it's very strange how bad bosses can build camaraderie. This experience happened so many years ago. If any of them show up in my dm, I'm talking to them tomorrow because we know exactly what we went through during that time. And so there's also, to your point, you asked the question, how do you know if other people. You're talking about it openly at work. It's the worst kept secret. This isn't normal then, right? There's bosses who do a good job, bullies of isolating people on the team, and then there's somebody who's just rip roaring at everybody and then the whole team is just the target. It's like, you know, different flavor for different day, picks a different person every day, but everyone's witnessing it. In that case, you actually have, in a strange way, community. You're like bonding over this and that. You then realize, okay, I'm not the one making this up.

B (26:08)

Okay, so excuse me. The crazy question I have for you is when somebody said to you this is not worth it, I have to ask, was it worth it working in proximity to this super hot brand, despite how torturous it was while you're in it, did it help you to go to the next level afterwards?

A (26:29)

It did in some ways. I mean, listen, I try not to live my life with regrets. Everything I did was for a reason. And it led me to be in conversation with you today. It also led me to what I hope will be a best selling book. Like it's a story in the book, right? So I think about it from that lens and I did learn a lot of great technical skills there. You could say, well, you could have learned that somewhere else in a healthier environment. I could have. But I don't try not to go back and say, should I have left sooner? What would like a sliding doors moment? You're sort of like, okay, no, this is what I was meant to do. It happened. I'm going to learn from it. I'm going to move on.

B (27:03)

And what was the most valuable thing that you got from that? Not in the survive horrible things, therefore I'm stronger. But was there some good in this?

A (27:13)

I mean, it was quite a creative role as you talked about. Like it was working for a beauty brand and just really understanding how to develop products. Right. Working really closely with product development. I have a really good nose now. Who would have thought? Like, I actually understand when you smell a fragrance, all kinds of technical things, pigments and shadows and packaging. Right. That's important in that industry. I learned a lot there because one of the things I thought to myself is that if I'm going to stay. And finally I said, you know, I created I call my get out folder. I was like, here's my get out plan. I got to get out. And I remember it was a tough market that year. I interviewed with like 40 companies, right. And not talking about applying, I'm talking about inactive processes like rounds and rounds. Like it was, you know, going through and it was, you know, over a year process. But I thought to myself, well, then if you're going to stay to your point, what are you going to get out of it? What are you going to put on your resume? What are the bullet points? You're staying in this. Like, for whatever reason you've decided you're staying in this horrendous situation, you better get some skills out of it.

B (28:18)

Yeah. In the creative space. I can totally relate to what you're talking about because when I was still actively working in the service industry, like doing commercials and music videos, there's a handful of companies that would seem to get the choice, the juiciest jobs and accounts. And as a creative person, you want to work there because you want access to those kinds of projects versus some corporate, boring, big box store thing, you're like, man, this is not really going to make my career. But also because at some of these places where some of the most creative individuals that you could want to be around and you can learn from them by osmosis or by their cruel critique of the work, you can learn things. And so people are willing to pay that price. They knew going in this is going to be a horrific thing. And they almost set the timetable. I'm going to do my two tours of duty and then I got to get out because I can't survive that beyond that. And it's quite interesting. So it's almost like a weird thing where people who are in that position know that they're in that position. So there's like an easy abuse of power and authority and influence and they just know.

A (29:26)

And that's how they're, you know, treated badly and taken advantage of. And I wonder, with the new generation Entering the workplace. I just think that people are just tired of putting up with this garbage.

B (29:36)

Yeah, well, let's talk about that a little bit, because we'll see.

A (29:39)

I don't know completely, but I do think social media has changed everything for the last 10 years. People have a microphone. People are now open to sharing what they're going through. I certainly am. But also, loyalty is dead in our workplaces. It's not like when my, you know, uncle left AT&T after 30 years and got a gold Rolex. Like there's that, that contract between employer employees broken. So people are like, okay, I'm going to get abused and I'm going to get laid off tomorrow. Like, no. Right. Like, so I do think there's a, I wouldn't say it's everybody, but I do think there's a growing sentiment where I'm going to be loyal. For what? Because to your point, you would be loyal and take that abuse because you were guaranteed skills or you were going to learn, and there might be some security or stability.

B (30:23)

I don't believe that exists anymore right now. You don't have to reveal this, but I'm, I think I'm Gen X. And I just noticed a changing mindset based on the different generations. And so I, I, I hate to do this because people get upset at me, but my younger employees, they come into the work office with a totally different mindset. I'm going to say this millennial group, which is, you work for us, we don't really work for you. So they would not even tolerate any of this stuff, but they don't have that same fortitude or commitment. Like, you know, this is work. Work's not supposed to be easy. I'm going to prove myself every single day. And so I just don't even know if some of these toxic bosses can even survive because they don't even show up to work anymore. Do you have thoughts on that?

A (31:09)

Well, I don't, I don't want to paint a brush with everyone, but I do think I, I think it still goes back to investment banking. Some of these jobs in Hollywood. Think of some of the hottest brands in the marketplace where people want to work. I'm thinking about Facebook circle, like 10 years ago. Right. There are places where everybody wanted to work. And I think that exists regardless of what time we're in. Because, you know, I just watched the Netflix documentary on the American Apparel CEO. What? Right. And the whole American. I was like, wow. Like, I didn't even, you know, I knew American Apparel, but then I Did not know the fallout of, like, how abusive and toxic and the allegations of sexual harassment. Horrible. And that wasn't that long ago. I do think that, you know, these bosses who are like cult like figures, ambassadors of a brand, founders, I do think that that will exist, that people will still be attracted and want to work there and, you know, sacrifice their mental health and well being in the interim for that spot.

B (32:12)

So you're saying even millennials will sign up for this kind of torture? Is that what you're saying?

A (32:16)

I think so. I think it's interesting. I think literally in the startup founder space, right, if there's somebody who's so magnetic and charismatic and draws you in and has this vision and they're going to go IPO and they're changing the world. And yeah, I would agree with that. I also see it in the nonprofit space, which is really interesting because nonprofits have an incredible mission and, oh, well, it's almost like the gaslighting. Well, this is our mission. Like we're trying to change the world. So we couldn't be toxic internally, could we? No, no. So I think there will always be that segment. I'm not saying it's not growing the people who are disinterested and maybe putting in as many hours as you did or I did, but I do think there will always be a group of people who will be interested in working for something that feels special and bigger.

B (33:07)

All right, so I would love to talk to you a little bit more about how you have been a bad boss, because I want to identify with myself, like, maybe I've been bad too. Now, you said you might have a problem with micromanaging. Tell us about this problem.

A (33:19)

What I would say is that's happened to me when I felt a loss of control in my life. And there 13 is my lucky number. And the 13th boss in the book is me. I talk about when I lost my dad suddenly in 2017. It was very sudden. Phone call from my mother completely changed my life. And anyone who's had a journey of grief can understand that. But what happened was at the time, the company I was working with had three days off for bereavement leave. My team rallied around me and got me to like three weeks or two and a half, three weeks. And so I come back to work and I'll never forget my boss at the time is like a week later. Oh, you finally got your mojo back. Okay, good. No one wanted me to be sad. No one wanted me to talk about what had happened. It was just sort of like, move on. And I was forced to bury the grief, which I think a lot of us do. And, like, we don't talk about grief enough in our communities. Not at work yet. We're all going to die someday. We're all going to lose someone we love, and yet we don't want to talk about it. And so I was a really terrible boss. I was emailing at midnight, worse hours, micromanaging, because I was. That's the only control I had, right? So I could at least control my team getting into details that didn't matter. I'll never forget there was this big presentation we had, and the team had sent me the deck a few times. And then I was also going, interestingly, from being disengaged to swinging to micromanagement, right? So I'd be disengaged, I wouldn't be around, and then I'd show up 30 minutes before the meeting. Where's the deck? You never sent it to me. We sent it to you. It's like you never sent it to me. I look on my phone, yeah, they sent it three times. I just never responded. And then I pull it up and I'm changing all these things that don't matter, and I'm like, this has to change. This has to change. And then, you know, they're presenting it and I'm sitting in the back and they're presenting things that are new to them. Right. And so that, to me, I mean, the loss of my dad and how I showed up at work, I wish I could have handled differently. But it's just also a message to, again that when you have these huge shifts and things happening in your life, there's no separation between home and work. It just doesn't exist, you know? And so you're going to carry that with you to work. So if I could have been more vulnerable, if I could have taken days off, if I could have just walked out and said, I'm just not, you know, I'm very upset today. I just need some time. If I felt like I had the ability to do that more, I wish I could have.

B (35:45)

So in ways you start exhibiting the behaviors of these toxic bosses that you just talked about.

A (35:51)

That's what I. That's why I ended with that chapter. That's why. Because, you know, one of the things that happened during that time is I had somebody who I had worked with for a while. She was an amazing high performer, and she resigned. And during that time, and I'll ever see, remember I saw the exit interview notes from HR I don't know if people still do exit interviews. They should, but I think they're canceled. Anyway, so I got the notes and it was exactly like, she had been a great boss. She's been disengaged. She hasn't been interested in my career. All the things that had happened over the last few months. And I just cried. It was true, right? I cried. I cried. And I. And those are the mirror moments where you're like, okay, here it is in writing. This person who you adored, who loved working for you, who maybe if you had just said, I'm not showing up to work this week because I'm just really struggling, right? Like, no one talks about, like, after the funeral happens and after, you know, all the, you know, casseroles are gone and people coming to stop by, like, that's actually when the grieving begins. You're like, oh, you were just kept busy. And now it's like months later, like, oh, this person's really gone. And so that was a really important moment for me.

B (36:58)

If the office environment didn't allow for a longer bereavement period. I wonder if you had. If you could have done this. I'm just going to talk out loud here and you tell me how this would have played out. Okay. If I were you. And I said, you know, as I'm. I'm still, like, really missing my dad right now, and I've not had the time to process what. What's going on. And I'm not going to be very functional or a very good boss, but I'm required to be here if at all possible. I'm going to ask for a lot of slack. I'm just going through a lot emotionally. And if I'm short with you, please remind me. And if I'm being unreasonable, I'm gaslighting you again. Remind me, because I don't want to become that person. How do you think that would have played out with the team rallying around you or not? What do you think?

A (37:45)

That's what I wish I had done. No, that's what I wish I had done. I wish I had just been more vulnerable. But aren't we taught to, you know, the boss knows everything. The boss is supposed to be strong. And then when you're in an environment, when your boss is happy, that you're not being vulnerable, right? My boss was like, oh, you got your mojo back. Thank God. You know, no one wants to see a sad face in the office. That was basically what he was saying, right? And it was also this, like, you Got the flu, you're over it. Move on. Like a lot of times, how we treat death, particularly in the workplace.

B (38:16)

Give us one or two other nuggets from the book that are like the juicy bits of wisdom that you're sharing.

A (38:22)

I'll talk about the napper. People think this is made up. You know, my mother has all the receipts. She actually said to me when I was writing it, she's like, oh, you forgot this detail and that detail. My mom remembers all these people. But the napper was the boss who slept in meetings. Didn't matter how big or small the meeting was. He slept all the time. And he was so disengaged and so unhappy. And there's that famous quote, Chris, that you probably know. It's like you become defined by the behavior you're willing to tolerate in your workplace. And so years later, I just don't understand why they didn't let this guy go. And this the backstory, you know, because I used to think he must be, you know, maybe he's narcoleptic. Maybe he has substance issues. Maybe he is fighting with his partner and is on the couch every night not sleeping. I really was like, there must be something happen happening. Like, people just don't do this. But he was just like in and out of office. He just was never there. And when he was, he was like, you know, loudly talking about fantasy football or talking to his wife about what he was going to have for dinner in the cube next to me. And then one day he's like, just taking calls from a recruiter in his cube and I find out how much he makes, and I'm like, what? Like, at least go into a conference room. That's when you know it's gone too far. And I think disengagement can be so contagious, and it can just spread like wildfire. And there's also the other side, right? When you're honest. When I'm honest about things at work and I care about the workplace, I can be labeled a detractor, potter, troublemaker, right? And then I'm the problem. But there are times when people just need to move on. And I think the biggest gift you can give as a leader is if. If, Chris, I'll pick on you. If that had happened to be you, I just would be like, take you out to lunch or coffee or sit down and say, there's Michael Murphy, who I include in the double emails of his research from Harvard University. This question, which is like, what would it take to make you be happy at Work again or be excited about your job. What has happened? Because at some point you were excited to join, either for the money or for the brand name. There was a moment that you took this willingly, and then what changed? And if you can't coach the person through that, you need to help them move on. We're all meant to do great things. It just might not be here in this, this moment on this team. And people are just, they lack the courage to have that conversation. And I had a really good leader once teach me that because I was working with someone on my team who was disengaged, and he said, you have to, you have to go talk to this person. This person's not happy here and it's only going to get worse. And doing that actually was like this because the person was like, I'm not doing well in this role. And I said, I know. And so we actually ended up exiting them out on good terms. They wanted to leave. We gave them a good package. And so I just wish we had more courage. Courage to have these conversations with each other.

B (41:08)

Okay. I like that a lot. As, as a boss, I, I, I usually have these conversations with my team. I said, if this, from not floating your boat, if you no longer find fulfillment here, for whatever reason, good or bad, made up or, or real, have the courage to quit. And most people are just lying there waiting to be slaughtered. And it's just like, you know, be a man, be a woman, stand up to the plate and say, you know what? This isn't for me. And you're just checking. You've, you're very checked out, but you continue to cash that check. And it's just, it's unethical in my opinion. And then they, they are basically saying, you must fire me to get rid of me. And let's just have a conversation about it like adults that are mature and let's work through this problem.

A (41:51)

Yes, Right.

B (41:52)

But I love that prompt. I love that prompt where if you're having an employee that you care about, that you want to try to give them a chance to ask them, what would it take to get you to be joyful at work again? And then if you have that kind of power to help them. And I, I love that. It's a very generous prompt.

A (42:09)

It is. I love it. Yeah. And start.

B (42:11)

I love this learning terms from corporate America that the, the put out the pasture program, which is your steps away from being fired. Right. Really, it's like you go into the slaughterhouse, you're kind of being done, but we're going to do this in the most humane way, which is we're gonna put you in a performance improvement land, which is code word for you suck.

A (42:31)

Listen, I talked about the term. You didn't know.

B (42:34)

Yeah, I love it. I do love it. Corporate America, it's got. It's probably one of the reasons why we're not as competitive as we need to be, but that's another story. Right. Okay. So when you put on that plan, then it's just days until you're going to be done.

A (42:47)

It's usually like a 60 to 90 day plan. It's in conjunction. Right. They want to make sure that they have documentation of me to not performing so that when they do cut ties, it's like we have all the evidence that you didn't do your job now in writing. So time to go.

B (43:04)

Yeah. That it wasn't some kind of profiling or discrimination against you and your.

A (43:10)

Absolutely.

B (43:10)

Yeah. You're a cracker Jack. And now they're just arbitrarily getting rid of their highest performing person.

A (43:15)

Right. Right.

B (43:16)

Yeah. Anything else you want to add?

A (43:19)

Yeah, let me share one more, boss. And then I know we're probably coming up our time. You'll. You'll like this. I'm interested to get your thoughts. I worked for the cheerleader and I loved him. He was like the corporate Pied Piper. He was smart, he was competent. Everyone loved him. You wanted to be in the office for him. You wanted to spend time with this person. Right. It was just great. But he was also filled with toxic positivity. And so what do I mean by that? It was like, you can do this. Whatever doesn't kill you, make you stronger. Go, go, go. And I shared this story where we had this really amazing cereal innovation. Guess people were eating lots of cereal. Breakfast, lunch, and dinner. I don't recommend that, but like eating lots of cereal. And it was doing really well in the marketplace. And our supply chain partners tell us there's a key ingredient that is no longer available for a certain amount of time. We can't produce any more of the product. Right. And so what would the normal conversation be? Okay, we got all our customers. Oh, no. We're going to add a million dollars to the forecast. We can do it. We can do it. We're going to add a million dollars to the forecast. Even though everybody. We went with the facts. Right. Here are all the reasons we can't do it. And he was just like rallying the troops was surrounding by someone who enjoyed being surrounded by yes. People and ends up doing this, what happens? We miss the target because we can't produce the product. I'll never forget, we're in my performance review. I get like a low rating. I get like, no merit increase. A low bonus won't even cover my Starbucks obsession. Right. I'm like, what's going on? And he's like, well, you missed the million dollar forecast. You missed the forecast. And so I can't justify giving you a high rating. It's almost like gaslighting. You're like, what are you talking about? You're the one who set that target. So particularly, it's really interesting when markets are in flux and we're working together and you assigned a goal for the team, something we have to get done by this quarter, something we have to achieve. And those 10 things I needed to get it done, I only now have four. And so this idea of wanting to be inspirational, but also, like having a dose of realism. Right. I'm not saying that you don't want to encourage your teams and get them excited and rally the troops, but oftentimes things are changing and the goals aren't changing. Right. And there's not these conversations, realistically, of what has to change in order to achieve what we set out to where we have to change the goal.

B (45:48)

That story took a turn and I didn't know where it was going. So this person, do you think they intentionally set a goal that was not achievable so that they can deny you a performance bonus or a salary increase?

A (46:03)

I think they were always kind of head in the clouds, like they always were trying to achieve things that weren't possible, which you might argue, oh, some of the best inventors and founders have done that. Right. But the point is, is that it actually is demoralizing and affects productivity of the team when you're not having these conversations. And maybe it's because this person didn't want to look bad to management. To your point, then they could blame the team. And so they're trying to also manage up to say, I can achieve all these things, but you can't. You're not able to. So can we revise the goal? And I think that happens a lot when I work with companies. I'll talk to teams where there is this, like, toxic positivity that's spewing.

B (46:47)

As we're wrapping up here, I was just sitting there thinking, so there. If I remember, because your favorite number is 13, I see 13 behind you, there's 13 archetypes. So let's. Can you quickly just rifle off like the 13 so that maybe people become intriguing. It's like, I want to know what the other.

A (47:02)

Listen, I'll just go through the table of contents quickly.

B (47:05)

Let's do it.

A (47:05)

Oh, my God.

B (47:06)

Yeah, let's go. Yeah.

A (47:07)

Okay. The boss who never had time for me except at midnight. Number two. You'll have to read about this one, Chris. The boss who didn't want to call me by my name, so he renamed me Muhammad. Get into that one. The boss who fell asleep in almost every meeting. The boss who hovered like a helicopter and enjoyed redoing all of our work. The boss who cried wolf because everything was urgent. The boss who ruled with fear, perched on her throne, clutching tightly to her crown. That was Medusa. The boss who punished me for being pregnant. The boss who was incredibly kind and completely incompetent at his job. The boss who was filled with toxic positivity. The cheerleader.

B (47:47)

Oh.

A (47:47)

The boss who loved gossiping about everyone. That was Gossip Girl. We didn't get to talk about that. The boss who loved me. Oh, okay. All right. We'll have to do a one on one session for that one. The boss who loved the spotlight and took credit for all of the work. The boss who questioned my loyalty and called me a rat. That's Tony Soprano. And then there's me. The boss who was grieving and couldn't show up for her team.

B (48:08)

And the book is the Devil Emails at Midnight. Where can we buy this book?

A (48:14)

You can go to Amazon. Local independent bookseller Barnes and Nobles. It's available any of those places. Hope you all can check.

B (48:21)

And it's available now.

A (48:23)

It's eminently. Yep, you can pre order it. It is.

B (48:25)

Okay, so the book will be available to everyone by the time this podcast drops?

A (48:30)

Yes, it is.

B (48:31)

If this conversation has intrigued you and some of these ideas are like tickling your brain and maybe you're on one side of this equation or the other. Either you're the toxic boss or you're on the opposite side, which is you're the person who is on the receiving end of toxic behavior. And hopefully this book will give you some insight into how to survive and hopefully navigate these. These kind of rough waters with people who are just dealing with their own pain and don't know how to express it. Thank you very much for being our guest today, Mita. For people who want to know more about you and where. Where can they follow or find you?

A (49:05)

You can find me on LinkedIn. I love meeting new people there, particularly in the comments and meetamalloc.com. thank you so much for having me on the show.

B (49:13)

Thank you very much.