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- [00:00]
A
You have to really listen. Every touch point with the client, every call you have with them. They give you so many hints. The one thing that I've also learned is when they profusely thank you at the end of the presentation, you're not winning the job.
- [00:16]
B
Really?
- [00:17]
A
No.
- [00:18]
B
What are they thanking you for then?
- [00:21]
A
Hi, I'm Mikam Van Gastel and you're listening to the Future.
- [00:27]
B
What's up, everybody? My guest today today is Mekan Van Gastel and he's somebody that I've crossed paths with back in my days when I was running a motion design firm. But I don't think we ever got to talking. Mekan, do you know if we've ever talked or anything like that in person?
- [00:42]
A
Oh, my God, yes. This is very funny. So I came 30 years ago now. I came from Cranbrook and I went to Imagine Armed Forces. That was my first job out of grad school. And I was seriously drinking the Kool Aid. I was drunk on Kool Aid. I loved that company. I love to work. I love everything about it. And there were two people that I couldn't understand why they wouldn't want to work at Imaginary Forces, and that was Chris do and Michelle Dougherty. So I caught you. I literally think maybe two or three nights, you were still kind of making a little bit of extra money. You had already started blind, and I think you were just making a bit of coin late at night. And I don't even think we talked because I was like, who are these two guys? Who do they think they are? They don't want to work here.
- [01:42]
B
Amazing weirdos. I think in school, especially undergraduate level, we're so focused on craft. And then when they get out of school and they enter into their workforce, they start to think an idea like, why is that person in charge of all of us? Some of them don't even have design backgrounds. And then when you're in the room, when they're presenting and talking about ideas on million dollar campaigns, you start to understand there's a gap between where you are as a practitioner and where you are as a business owner, leader, communicator. Can you talk a little bit about that since you've been in this game for so long?
- [02:16]
A
I think as designers, we're so invested in what we do and what we make. And it's the beauty about being a designer. I mean, we're all lucky to be doing something we love. But when you're dealing with the client, you can't lose sight of what's important to them. And that goes beyond what the assignment is. It's about what keeps them up at night, what worries them, right? When you think about, I read a stat once, I'm sure you've heard this too. Like, the average duration of a CMO at a company is 18 months. 18 months, just think about that. It takes about a year to get a campaign developed. I mean, that is one hell of a lot of pressure on an individual. So a lot of the details and the things that are really important to you as the designer that you slaved over, that you got stuck on, they matter nothing to them. So you have to really listen very carefully. Every touch point with the client, every call you have with them. They give you so many hints, like, I've lost so many jobs that I listen, I think back at the call and I'm like, my God, they mentioned that. Like, why didn't I queue in on that? Right? And then on top of that, so many students struggle to present their work and again they get lost in the details, they're nervous. It doesn't matter how good the idea is, how beautiful the frames are, or incredible the poster is, if you can't sell it, it's never going to see the light of day.
- [03:52]
B
Take us to school right now, tell us one or two things that we can do to instantly up our pitch game.
- [03:58]
A
You need to be able to take a client, grab them by the hand and lead them through. Whether it's your process or whether it's the work, how the work evolves over time, it's the lead up to the work, it's the work itself, and then it's also the follow up after the work. That's the big change that I see now also, and social media has really done that, is that when we make something, it has a life after it was born and social media allows you to amplify that. So now the process of the making the result, it's much more complicated than just like, okay, here it is, take it, it's going to run for a month and see you later. It's much more complex than that. So in many ways it's like you're building ecosystems rather than single deliverable. So I think from a sales perspective, however you decide to do it, take people onto a journey and sometimes also like there's clients, you have to read the room and you have to ask the right questions and don't be shy about it. Some clients are only interested in the result and they really pay you and trust you for what you bring to the table. Your craft Your knowledge, your experience. Other clients want to go through the process with you. They want to be part of it. If that client wants to be part of it, you have to bring them in. For example, that means instead of you going away, it's like, okay, you got the project on January 15th, and then you don't talk to the client until February 15th, because that's when the pitch is due. No, you talk to them every week, multiple times a week, whatever feels right for the process. Because they want to be part of part of the process. And you invite them, they become part of the team. That's the thing with sibling that I feel that's in some ways kind of a unique selling point. It's like we've sort of a group of individuals that can become part of your company. Whether it's like part of the in house agency or the client direct, we become part of their culture. And by doing that, you gain a lot of trust. So I think taking people on a journey, telling a good story, but also understanding how involved the client wants to be. Because there are also clients that when they call you on the 15th of January and it's due on 15th of February, don't call me in between. But you have to figure that out. So I think those are the two things that I would say are helpful moving forward.
- [06:42]
B
I think a lot of creatives get in their own way and they think clients get in the way of their art and they have an adversarial relationship. And I don't think you could be doing this for multiple decades if that's your attitude. Very few people can pull that off.
- [06:53]
A
But also, Chris, to that point, how many times have you been in or seen a presentation where, let's say it's an hour and the agency talks, or the production company or whoever, the director talks for 59 minutes? No, you have to. Whether it's after each chapter or you have to make sure you leave room for them to give their input, react, weigh in, especially if you do it in a minute. Checkpoints, they give you so much information that allows you to lead the witness as you continue to go through your deck. The one thing that I've also learned is when they profusely thank you at the end of the presentation, you're not winning the job.
- [07:35]
B
Really?
- [07:35]
A
No.
- [07:36]
B
What are they thanking you for then?
- [07:38]
A
They're thanking you for all the hard work. Typically our presentations are elaborate and impressive. It's not like, oh, well, the presentation was shit. And when they thank you so profusely, it means you're not going to speak to them again. So they're taking that time to thank you for all the hard work.
- [07:55]
B
What is a good sign that you're going to get the job?
- [07:57]
A
I think what makes you think you win the job is when they ask a lot of questions and they're really engaged, and it's not about just all agreeing on things. It's about discussing things. When they're like, okay, we like that, but we've done that in the past and this happened. Whatever it may be, if it's a really engaging conversation with questions back and forth, that's a great sign.
- [08:23]
B
I want to ask you this question I found out recently. I'm 54, by the way. I'm one year away from being a senior citizen. You and I are similar age.
- [08:32]
A
Yep. I'm 71.
- [08:33]
B
I got to ask you this question. People come in and out of this industry. It's a rough industry to be in. What has kept you going so long and relevant and viable? What do you attribute to the keys to longevity and success?
- [08:48]
A
I think, for me, longevity. I mean, there's a lot of nuances to this answer. But at the end of the day, I think the thing I realized very quickly is that this is a people business. If two ideas are equal, they're going to go with the person they like the most or the person they trust the most. In the beginning of our careers, in the roaring 90s and early 2000s, you could be an a hole as a creative director. And as a director, they probably wanted you more because you were one. Now those people don't work anymore. So people that. It's funny, because at a certain point, when sort of the millennials were taking over, and it was all about young people and diversity and all this good stuff, right? The business needed it. God knows it needed it. But for people our age, that was rough. All of a sudden, you weren't working anymore. Now I actually think that experience wasn't valued. Everybody wanted the YouTube star, the guy that did this, the girl that did that. And I think experience is valued again. And I think at the end of the day, my focus has very much been about being a good partner whenever I work on a project. And the next time I see the clients, I ask them how the project went, if there was economic impact, if it met the goals that they set. They always stare at me like I'm from outer space. I don't think there's a lot of directors or creative directors that do that, I guess, in our side of the field, but it shows that you care. Like I said, it's a relationship business. It's about trust and mutual respect in my mind.
- [10:38]
B
Let's do a little shift here. I want to talk about new and emerging formats. I've not been to the Sphere myself, but I understand there's a whole experience, this kind of 5D experience that people are talking about. Talk to us about that.
- [10:52]
A
In many ways, it's a dream come true. Working in something as immersive as the Sphere is totally unique. We've grown up with the frame, whether it's a computer screen or a phone or a camera, whatever it may be. The frame increased in size, but it was always a frame. Sphere puts you in the middle of the story. There is no frame. It's frameless. You can't just take everything that you've learned in linear media and just put it up there and blow it up to 12k and hope for the best. You're A, doing the medium, a total disservice, and B, actually, as Sphere has evolved and Sphere Studios has become very smart about what works and what doesn't work, they won't even allow you to do that anymore. Like, in the first year, you probably could have gotten away with it. The second year we worked with them, not allowed. You have to really design and tell the story with the medium in mind, which is thrilling. Obviously, like you said, it's 5D, right? So there's the image. It's pretty much like a 360 view. Resolution is incredible. The seats vibrate. They can blow steam at you. Rain. They can change the temperature if there's an image of fire. The speaker system is incredible. They can pinpoint the audio to the seat if they wanted to. So when you work there, you lean into that as much as you can.
- [12:30]
B
And that's good to know. I mean, it can be very tempting to use this technology than the scale of it and go overboard and kind of micro bay it. It's just too much of a good thing. I'm just curious about how you think about designing these experiences. Like from a conceptual level. You mentioned, like, you would go to Burbank and test these things. The reason why I asked this question is this. I remember during the pandemic, theaters took a huge hit. No one could go out. And I think they're still recovering from that in that the screens at home have gotten bigger, the quality's good enough now, and movies are coming out really fast after their theatrical release. And so these kinds of immersive experiences offer us something that is tangibly very different than what you can get at home. You can't reproduce this at home unless you're a billionaire. I suppose.
- [13:21]
A
So.
- [13:22]
B
Do you think some of these in person experiences are the antidote to the movement away from being in shared spaces and having a communal thing?
- [13:32]
A
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think especially with this next generation that doesn't seem to be so driven by possessions. I want to own a car. I want to own a house. It's about experiences. Lived experiences, shared experiences. It's funny because on the one hand there's like a trend towards personal brands. There's this sort of individualistic thinking on one side. But I think it gets completely balanced out by a need and a desire for shared experiences. And that's what these venues offer. And it's more than just a movie. Right. It's if it is an immersive experience, it's about that. If it's an interactive experience, it's about you participating. You become part of the story. That's all part of a joint experience that creates a memory. It's not just about grabbing attention. Grabbing attention is different than creating a memory. If you can create a memory, you're onto something. So I think that's what the difference is in the approach.
- [14:36]
B
I wanted to ask you a little bit about also another shift that I've noticed and the reason why I got out of doing what I do is advertising. When we were growing up, you have some networks but you weren't streaming everything and you couldn't skip all the commercials. And now commercials have become a nuisance. And so advertising has had to change a lot since you've been in it for three decades now. What are you seeing? Where is it going?
- [15:02]
A
Commercial still play a role in live events and award shows and stuff like that. Right. And I think ultimately that will stay. And they're now making their way back onto streaming platforms because the stream platforms are getting so expensive. That commercial free. Well, maybe I'll take a few commercials and pay half as much. Right. So they are in some ways actually I feel, making a comeback. But at the end of the day, yeah, I mean, I think you, as far as brands go and campaigns, I mean it's. You can't just rely on the commercial. It's more about creating almost like ecosystems where as a brand you really think about how you show up on the shelf on a screen, in social physical space activation. Like you don't have to do all of it. But I think as a brand you have to really think about what parts of the ecosystem are relevant to you or what you want to lean into, where you want to invest the money, the strategy side of the company. I think we need to start thinking about being smarter, about advising. Also where this media is going to play, how you can leverage the investment that you've made on this experience or dedex activation and how it can create longevity after the event closes. So I think creatives need to start thinking more about the delivery of the content and thinking about an ecosystem that plays out over time and help clients imagine that.
- [16:41]
B
We're coming to the end of our podcast together. Two questions. You've been in this business for 30 years plus. What's the next 30 years like for you? Are you doing this or are you doing something else?
- [16:53]
A
I have no hobbies. I love what I do. I do it all day long, nights, weekends. I wear a lot of different hats. One moment I'm wearing an HR hat, the next moment a creative director hat. The next moment I'm talking to clients or actors for a commercial. And then Joe's more the CCO of the company, I'm more the CEO of the company. Listen, at some point I want to work less, but I don't know, I think I'm fooling myself to think that I will ever stop. I don't think I ever will. That's so much of who I am. So hopefully there's a way to continue to be relevant, whether it's more in a consulting kind of fashion or I think, listen, the worst thing is when you lose interest in something or you got burnt out on something, then it is time to move on. But I think because I do so many things and I'm not afraid to pivot, I'm not bored by it yet.
- [17:54]
B
That's excellent. I mean, you talk about longevity and if you are in alignment with what you're supposed to be doing in this lifetime, there's no reason for you to stop. What you do might change a little bit who you do it for and what side of the fence you're on. Who knows? So I asked you one question. Looking forward the next 30 years, I'm going to ask you my final question now, looking backwards, you're 99 years old. You're done with whatever you're doing. I think the days ahead of you are finite and you're looking back. What are the two experiences that you've experienced, either have already experienced or in the future plan on experiencing, where they're going to really stick to you, where you're like, wow, I'm so glad I was able to do that.
- [18:38]
A
When people ask me, what work are you the most proud of? It's actually the company Building Sibling. I think that's my finest work. And that's not just me. That's obviously all my partners and every single person that works there. And I think the purest I've ever been is probably those two years at Cranbrook where you strip yourself completely naked, unlearn everything you've learned, and really find yourself. And to invest two years in yourself. Or you're just focused on what drives you, what you're interested in, what sets you up for your career path that follows. What a luxury and what a gift. I'm very, very grateful for both of those things. So I think it would be those two things.
- [19:31]
B
Well, Mekan, it's been a pleasure talking to you today. After a couple of false starts, I'm really glad that we're able to talk. And absolutely, we were able to connect, I think, 30 plus years of history and just, like, collapse it down to this moment. And it was real fun going down memory lane and also kind of seeing what the future of this industry looks like from a person who's actively involved in shaping it. So really nice talking to you.
- [19:52]
A
Thank you. Appreciate the opportunity, Chris, and great to see you again.