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- [00:00]
A
When you attach your name to something, that thing becomes valuable and people will buy it like your name means something. Okay. Again, it has to be outside of what you already do. Everyone has a personal reputation. Not everyone has a personal brand. My mom has a reputation. She ain't got a brand. Welcome back, everybody. This is episode two of this ongoing dialogue with Matt Essom. He. He's a friend and a person who coaches for the future community. And we've been talking a lot about personal branding. So if you haven't done so, it's really important that you go listen to the previous episode. We'll include the link to that episode down below in the description. The reason why is because in episode one, we kind of set the general framework for understanding or having the proper mindset around building a personal brand. We went through probably more of what it isn't versus what it is. And so naturally, we've taken a short break here and we're back. So Matt has a lot of thoughts and questions, and so I hope to continue to dive down deeper into this.
- [01:01]
B
I think I would love to pick up the conversation around content because a lot of people, myself included, aren't 100% clear on what content to be creating in order to build the right kind of personal brand, but also to have an impact at the same time. And. And also, I guess the other thing is, like, how do you know where to draw the line between what to share and what not to share? I've always equated in my mind, when you talk about personal branding or when I hear people talk about personal branding, it's like, oh, I have to be like a hormozy, or I have to be a Christo or I have to be a Steven Bartlett before I get any kind of level of success. So I guess to start with, it's like picking up from where we left off. Can you just speak to audience size versus kind of impact and income and how personal brand is related to those three things?
- [02:03]
A
Yeah, let's break it down. I don't think there's any connection between audience size and income. Somebody could be the most unknown person to do a hundred billion dollars a year and we would never know about them. And then they'd be very successful. But we would kind of argue that they don't have a personal brand. So part of the personal brand is having the reputation that precedes you in life and in on social. Now, everybody that knows you has an impression of you, and even the barista at the coffee shop who sees you every once a Day has an impression, he's kind, he's not kind, he's very curt. And that's part of your brand. And if we were to say somehow get the hundred people that are, that know you, your family, your friends, your partner, your co workers, and we kind of assess what they all think of you, we would get some sense of your brand. What we do is we throw away the edge cases where people are like, he's super generous, but only two people have said that, or he's a total a hole when only two people said that. We kind of look at the thing in the middle and that's you having your personal brand. And everyone has something like that. But we won't call it personal brand, we just call it, you have a reputation. It's not until this reputation exceeds your immediate primary and secondary circle of people that you know that we start to say like, you have a personal brand. Now, I'm going to borrow a little bit from Marty Neumeyer and I will as often the case when we talk about branding, he says when enough people come to a similar gut feeling about who you are, then you have a brand. And that's deliberately vague and nebulous, because what is enough people we don't know, but we know it. When we know it, we can tell. And so when your reputation precedes you, people are talking about you when you're not in the room. Now, you could be the poorest person, by the way, you could be the poorest person, broke living hand to mouth and have amazing personal brand. They're not connected. Conversely, you could be the most unknown person and be the richest mother effer in the world and have no personal brand. They're not connected concepts and we have to decouple these ideas.
- [04:00]
B
So could personal brand and personal reputation be interchanged? As in like they have the same meaning almost?
- [04:08]
A
Well, there has to be some differentiation because everyone has a personal reputation. Not everyone has a personal brand. My mom has a reputation, she ain't got a brand.
- [04:17]
B
I don't think you're wrong, but I think it would be useful for me to understand some distinctive characteristics or some distinctive elements between a reputation and a personal brand. Like if I had almost like a checklist.
- [04:33]
A
I have some for you because I've thought about this. Do people outside of your vertical or your industry know who you are?
- [04:40]
B
Are they different things or are they the same thing? Vertical slash industry, Right.
- [04:43]
A
They're the same. They're interchangeable, I think.
- [04:45]
B
Okay, what are some of the others?
- [04:47]
A
The other thing is, I'll broadly describe is this your ability to just print money. When you attach your name to something, the thing becomes valuable and people will buy it again. It has to be outside of what you already do. One of my favorite bands is called Twenty One Pilots. In 2024, I think they dropped Breach and it was the highest selling rock album of the year. And it reminded me of something I like. Went to their twenty one Pilots store and they sell merch, of course, T shirts and things. So they make music, they create a live experience for us. Merch transcends that because now I have some other version of that by them applying their name, their brand assets to something. A t shirt is $30. We know that the retail, not the retail, the manufactured price of that is probably like five or six bucks at most. At scale it's even less. But they've created $25 of additional value because they've attached some version of their brand essence or brand assets onto that thing.
- [05:51]
B
So somebody outside your niche or outside your industry knows who you are. Your ability to add value because like print money I totally get, but it's more. It sounds, it's like it's more about your ability to add value to an asset by just using your brand. Are there any more?
- [06:09]
A
The next criteria I think is you stand on top of the vertical that you're in, that you are not peerless, but you're at the top, the top five, top 3% of the people doing what you do. So your personal reputation has exceeded that, so that you've now become, at least within your peers, a household name.
- [06:30]
B
Do you think somebody like me in the coaching and consulting space can build a seven figure business as easily as somebody who has a personal brand?
- [06:41]
A
Not as easily, but as possible. I know this is going to sound really weird and disconnected from reality. I know everybody, I apologize. I send all your hate letters to Matt. After this, I'll give you his personal email. Is I believe that in this world with so many opportunities that we have, especially if you have some resources behind you, the ability to make between a hundred thousand dollars and a million dollars a year is not as difficult as it used to be. So yes, for sure you can do it. It will not be as easy for you to do it. But there's something that's much bigger than what we're talking about here, which is what happens when Matt stops working in his life. Matt will make no more money. But I think number four, if you have a personal brand is can you jump verticals? So when you're done doing what you're doing, it no longer interests you because your personal brand's so strong, you're like, hey, guys, I'm gonna do this thing now. It's not quite related to what I did before. And then the people are like, we're right there with you.
- [07:37]
B
Okay, so what are the advantages then of someone outside of my niche or my vertical or my industry knowing who I am or talking about me?
- [07:46]
A
Well, let's look at it. You're not a graphic designer, are you?
- [07:49]
B
No, I used to be.
- [07:51]
A
You don't make commercials for a living?
- [07:53]
B
No.
- [07:54]
A
Okay, so you and I are talking in your vertical that you're in and where I started talking about stuff, we're not in the same vertical. So some other person in between us said, hey, there might be some value here. And that's where new opportunities open up. So they're opening doors that you don't even know exist. That's the key. We're talking about opportunities and people connecting things for you and having access. The other is just like, I know who you are before you walk in the room.
- [08:22]
B
Okay, what are some disadvantages of building a personal brand?
- [08:27]
A
Number one, it's a lot of work. It's going to be at least 10 to 15% of your time to build something. It's like writing a book forever. There is no guarantee on return on investment, the payoff of any kind of benefit. It's nebulous at best. But it could be a year, it could be three years, it could be five, it could be seven, it could be forever. And there's number three, which is the most difficult thing for anybody to hear. You might not have it.
- [08:49]
B
Can you talk just a little bit about the role of audience size and followers in relation to a personal brand? Because it seems like that's a core component.
- [09:01]
A
Yeah, there's some correlation there for sure. It's because it's social proof. And there's this line that I heard at Big Creator meeting. They said, social media is the new resume. And I believe that. So what's happening here is these are all heuristics. We see that you won an award. We see that you've got a diploma. We've seen that you are a TEDx speaker. And all those things build credibility because we're in a world where everyone's cynical. Everyone is very skeptical about whether or not you're the real deal or not. They're just looking for shorthand versions of them to think too much like, you're a person I should listen to or not. And they're making that decision like that you search on YouTube and you see videos pop up. There's the one that's got 5 million views and the one that's got 5,000 views. You're like, well, let me watch the 5,000 view video. Very few people do that. I'm the sick individual who actually does that. I watch the one that doesn't have a lot of views and it's garbage. I've yet to see one where it's like, no, this is the superior video. And I don't know why it doesn't have the numbers. Because there is such a thing called group intelligence. Statisticians know this. The group knows who's going to win and what pillar.
- [10:11]
B
So if we're looking at all of the different parts of personal brand, what pillar or what part is the audience part and how much should we be focusing on that?
- [10:19]
A
Well, I don't think we focus on the audience. We focus on communicating our beliefs and sharing our teachings with the world, and we try to get better at that, and then the audience will fall in line.
- [10:31]
B
I don't know about anyone else listening, but I feel quite intimidated by the journey of building a personal brand based on what you've spoken about so far. And content excites me. Exploring who I am excites me. Having impact excites me. Like, all of the things that I see people building a personal brand doing excites me. But when you move it onto the level of, like, have you got the it factor? And what's like, you know, when we were first talking about it and you were telling me about, like, dress sense and style and like, what do you want people to remember you for and all that? Like, when we get into that territory, for me, it kind of gets a little bit overwhelming and intimidating. Is there like, a creative's personal brand that people listening to this could all get excited about? Because it has most of the benefits of personal brand without some of the downsides.
- [11:23]
A
We want so many guarantees, so much commitment. We want all the answers done before we even take step one. And sooner or later you'll figure out, I'm not cut out for this. I don't want this, or the world doesn't want this from me. And you can either adjust or you can say, this is it. But I don't think we could sit here and like, well, the longer you delay doing the thing that you know you should be doing, even though it's painful to you, the longer you delay your progress.
- [11:48]
B
I agree with that. Apart from the sentence, you Said, knowing the thing that you should be doing.
- [11:53]
A
Expand, please.
- [11:55]
B
Because I don't know that I should be building a personal brand.
- [11:58]
A
Like, oh, you do know you should. You know why?
- [12:00]
B
Why?
- [12:01]
A
It's the strongest resistance that you have. I believe this. The universe tells you what you should do, but we fight it and we fight it and we fight it. Like, the universe at some point said, hey, you gotta start a business. Like, no, I'll just get a job. Or, you know what? Or the universe told you, you should read this book and you don't. You just delay, delay. And then you should write this book or you should go to this event and you don't. And that's how you know that's the thing you're supposed to be doing. Because the things have no resistance, require no challenge, no growth, no stretching.
- [12:28]
B
I'm going to push back a little bit on this push, because I think the premise of what you're saying is right. I usually have this feeling where it's like, oh, God, I know I should be doing this thing, but I have loads of resistance to it. I don't feel like that about personal branding. I feel like that about certain things in business, but I don't feel that about personal branding. And I think I'm still trying to decide, like, is it worth it?
- [12:54]
A
We can agree that there's resistance to doing this.
- [12:57]
B
Yes.
- [12:58]
A
And that's the first sign that this is what you should be doing. The reason why we're having this conversation is some part of your subconscious says, there must be something here for me to get into a conversation with Chris about this. And every single time we get together, Sharjah, Dubai, we're having the same freaking conversation. There's something there. So you might be seeing it from a lens of God, Some of these people are doing things. It's working out pretty well for them.
- [13:23]
B
Them.
- [13:23]
A
And then the resistance is telling you now, this ain't gonna work. So you and I, I'll bet you right now it could be five years from now when you actually start. I don't know when it's gonna start, but when you do it, I'll sit back there with you a little bit older, say, I told you. Cause objectively, when you look at what's happening, you can see it. The person who's in the bubble can't figure it out. But I'm just telling you, I already know. I'm not trying to do this in a smug kind of way, but I already know.
- [13:50]
B
No, no. And I agree, and I appreciate that directness. I Guess up until this point, I haven't ever felt like you've directly said to me, do you know what you need to do next, Matt? Like, you really just need to build your personal brand. Like, if I was going to focus on anything, it would just be that. I feel like they've always been curious conversations about, hey, I'm in Sharjah. Oh, interesting. How did that opportunity come about? And, oh, this is pretty cool. And so it's been more like me working out. Like, what else is Chris doing compared to me that give him these opportunities and do I want these kind of opportunities? Like, is this what I'm really looking to optimize for? Is this really what I'm trying to build?
- [14:27]
A
I don't see my job as a teacher to convince you of anything. All I have to do is ask you questions and ask you to check in with yourself and see what makes the most sense and to point out where you're being inconsistent with your own logic. And then you decide, because let's just be really honest and frank here. I don't give a flying F what you do. It's your life, it's your business. You get to do whatever you want. And if you become rich and famous, what does that got to do with me? It's got nothing to do with me. It's because you decided. So all I can do is ask you questions, get you to think Socratically like, okay, I'm going to ask you these questions, then you'll find out and we'll see. So I tell you right now, the friends that I have that aspire to do what they want in their lives, it's almost always the same thing. I want to do whatever the hell I want. I'm going to be paid an outrageous amount of money to do that in the time in which I want to do it. And I guarantee you it's not running your lifestyle business for me. It's like, well, you know what? I get paid to help people. That's the life that I want. So sometimes it happens on a stage, sometimes it's in a workshop, sometimes it's on a pod, a fireside chat. I just get paid to help people because that lights me up.
- [15:37]
B
Do you believe you need a personal brand in order to do that?
- [15:40]
A
No, the personal brand is built because I'm doing that. That's the big ninja flip for you.
- [15:45]
B
Okay, well, in that case, I'm sold because that in that case is just inevitable because that's what drives me too. And that's, I think, why we connected originally.
- [15:53]
A
I'll tell you something, right? When I was younger, I'm thinking, I'm 16, 17 years old. I love to read comic books. I was drawing a lot, and people were like, oh, my classmates, my friends were like, you. You're really good. I'm like, no, I'm never as good as the people that I'm looking at in the books. A family friend came by. His name is Mark. He's a white guy, Caucasian guy, and we called him Uncle Mark. And Uncle Mark's like, hey, kiddo, what do you want to do when you're done with school? Like, what are you going to do? And he goes, I see that you have a real talent for this. I don't know that much about what you do, but you're really good at art and design. Is this what you want to do? And you know what? I was. I was really dismissive, like, no, Uncle Mark, that's not what I want to do. He goes, is it a problem with your old man? Do you want me to talk to him? Because I know, you know, sometimes your parents won't let you do this kind of stuff. He was a very understanding person. And I'm like, no, no, no. But you know what I was thinking in my mind? I'm not going to make money doing this. I don't want to be poor. Because society at that point had told me, not directly, but if you want to have a good life, do not pursue the arts. That's a path towards suffering that I wasn't ready to accept. I knew it was truthful. That's why it hurts so much. That's why I was so dismissive of it because. Because I'm like, I know. That's what I want to do. The child in me is like, I want. I'm screaming, please let me do that. But the adult in me is like, that's a path towards poverty and suffering. Now, surprise, surprise, I go to art school. I do logo design, and I do identity design. And this is what I do now. I share that story, because we all have that in us. I'll tell you, Matt, you need to do this thing, because I see that in you. You told me something. You've revealed a part of you. I know, Chris, I'm not going to do that. That's stupid. People will laugh. That's dumb. I don't see a future in this. I'm like, okay, but to each in their own time.
- [17:37]
B
I'm totally up for going on that journey. Like, this is what I'm talking About in terms of, like, selling the outcome or selling the benefit. Like, I got to know what I'm signing up for. If you're saying to me this personal branding journey is really about discovering who you are, which is what you said at the beginning, but it's really about being able to bring more of yourself and your qualities and your skills into the way that you run your business and the people that you teach and the people that you coach so that you can get more fulfillment, so you can make more impact in those people's lives and find the thing that is your way of doing this thing so it resonates with more people. Then sign me up. I don't care if that means I have an extra 5 followers or an extra 5,5 million followers. Like, that makes no difference to me. But now I'm clear on what I'm signing up for, if that makes sense.
- [18:27]
A
Good. If you listen back to episode one, you'll be shocked to discover this is what we talk about. But this will be real interesting. And if you follow me on Social, you'll know I've said this. The more you you are, the more you are. And people are like, what the hell did you just say? The more you you are, the more you are. And so my philosophy, my take on this whole personal branding journey is to help you be more you. And this is not my phrase, but to be the you as you you can be. And I even leave out all the other stuff so you can impact this. But it's just like, you know what? Tell me a person who doesn't want to be more themselves, and I'm like, I got nothing for you.
- [19:06]
B
Do you know why I think these two episodes were so powerful for me at least, and hopefully the people listening is because what we just did is we just separated the signal from the noise.
- [19:17]
A
So on that note, Matt, we'll wrap up this episode. Thank you for being so vulnerable, so real, so argumentative, so stubborn, and every other word that I can imagine in there. For poking holes in things and demanding clarification on things. And if you are like, Matt, thank you for hanging in there with us getting to the end of this episode. If you have questions, just reach out to me on Social. Drop me a link. And if you ever run into me in the streets, please don't be shy. I am. Say hello, and I'd be happy to say hello to you and take a picture with you or whatever. This is my life's work, so I'm never bothered by it. And on that note, thanks, Matt. For being here.
- [19:53]
B
Thanks for having me. As always, Chris.