Rich Brand, Poor Brand w/ David Brier | Ep 389

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Futur with Chris Do

Episode 389: "Rich Brand, Poor Brand" w/ David Brier
Release Date: October 16, 2025
Guests: Chris Do (Host), David Brier (Branding Expert, Author of "Brand Intervention" and "Rich Brand, Poor Brand")

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Chris Do sits down with renowned branding leader David Brier to explore the nuanced differences between rich and poor brands, focusing on what truly makes a brand thrive beyond financial metrics. The conversation dives deep into the qualitative aspects that create a "rich" brand culture, emphasizing radical intention, accountability, generosity, and human connection over transactional thinking. Using stories, actionable advice, and memorable quotes, they challenge listeners to rethink branding—not merely as a set of visual assets, but as the "art of differentiation" powered by a culture of purpose and care.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining "Brand," "Rich," and "Poor"

• Brand as Differentiation
  • David Brier explains his core definition:

    “Branding is the art of differentiation.” (05:03)

• "Rich" vs. "Poor" Not About Money
  • "Rich" refers to the quality of a culture, not financial wealth. There are large 'poor' companies and small 'rich' ones.
  • Brier: “A rich brand is a culture where you feel cared for... there’s an unspoken brotherhood.” (05:44)
  • Chris Do clarifies:

    “Rich and poor—we’re not talking about financials, we’re talking about quality of culture.” (07:01)

• Traits of Rich & Poor Cultures
  • Brier:

    “A poor culture would be one that was really only transactional and only metrics. And a rich one would be one where… as I rise, they rise. And if they don’t rise, I have not achieved anywhere near my level of success.” (07:29)

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2. Culture and Differentiation

• Transactional vs. Relational Cultures
  • Do:

    "In other words, a poor culture is transactional... then rich culture is more relational." (08:18)

  • Brier:

    "If you win, I win… That is not just a nice little, you know, inspirational poster to have on the wall." (08:25)

• The Michael Jordan Analogy
  • Brier:

    “Michael Jordan… became amazing when he focused on how to make an amazing team, how to empower others. That’s really part of rich brand, poor brand.” (06:20)

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3. David Brier’s Journey & What Motivates Him

• Passion at 66
  • Brier on his drive:

    “I love unearthing that potential. That’s what lights me up.” (12:34)

• From Artisan to Strategist
  • Brier shares his path as a fine artist, illustrator, designer, to branding expert—motivated by a desire to own creative outcomes and unlock client blind spots.

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4. What Makes David Brier Different?

• Directness and Myth Busting
  • Brier on his personal brand:

    “I’m the brand father, the slayer of the mundane… I’m known for being very direct and ruffling up closely held myths... That’s my New York side.” (17:51)

  • Do observes:

    “You’re kind of more like... that Brooklyn, New York edge... Grandfather makes a lot of sense...” (19:18)

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5. Unpacking "Rich Brand, Poor Brand" – Key Traits & Stories

(Based on Ch. 21 of the book, starting at 19:56)

• Empower Others

  “Shift focus from sales and pitches to empowering colleagues and customers. Help others grow and your brand will thrive.” (20:31)

• Fanatical Intention

  “The people who are most successful have a fanatical intention—not only for what they do, but for what you get out of it.” (23:20)

  • Examples: Gary Vaynerchuk, Frank Gehry, Gordon Ramsay—all demonstrate obsessive commitment as a form of "fanatical intention."
• The Power of Love

  “Want a killer brand? Fall in love with your customers. When they feel the love, they’ll move mountains for you.” (25:50)

  • Brier: “No machine is going to make you or I feel the recognition of, wow, I was just understood.” (27:49)
  • Do and Brier share stories of small gestures—reserved parking, personalized greetings, acts of service—that create deep customer loyalty. (32:06)
• Outward vs. Inward Ideas
  • Outward: Sharing ideas that benefit others, like “handing out sunshine on a cloudy day.”

    “The rich brand knows the true power that results from the quality of ideas and how much they are shared outwardly... The poor brand has long forgotten the power of an idea, replacing rays of sunshine with cynicism.” (37:29)

  • Inward: Only concerned with personal gain.
  • Dissipating: Busy work with no real impact.
  • Brier recounts a client who donated $50M to charity thanks to his company’s success—a mark of outward, generative impact. (42:05-44:15)

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6. Accountability, Ownership, and Leadership

• Do:

  “I don’t want to manage people’s time... I just want to look at the outcomes together… then empower you to make decisions so you don’t come back and say, ‘you told me what to do’. I didn’t—let’s increase our sub rate. How you want to get there is up to you.” (44:57)

• Brier:

  “If one is the leader... One has to basically look and go—what kind of environment am I creating that actually nobody wants to take any ownership?” (47:14)

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7. Knowing When to "Retire" (Fire) Clients

• Brier on ending client relationships:

  “Our greatest power and our greatest freedom is the ability to know when to end the game that just is not working, and walk out and say, no.” (49:20)

• Both Do and Brier share stories about politely—but firmly—walking away from clients who were uncoachable, indecisive, or failed to own their end of the relationship (49:45-57:28).

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Notable Quotes

• David Brier:

  "Branding is the art of differentiation." (05:03)

• Chris Do:

  "Rich and poor—we’re not talking about financials, we’re talking about quality of culture." (07:01)

• David Brier:

  “A rich brand is a culture where you feel cared for... an unspoken brotherhood.” (05:44)

• David Brier (on empowerment):

  “As I rise, they rise. And if they don’t rise, I have not achieved anywhere near my level of success.” (07:29)

• Jim Rohn, quoted by Brier:

  “Learn to work harder on yourself than you do on your job. If you work hard on your job, you can make a living. If you work hard on yourself, you’ll make a fortune.” (20:46)

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Memorable Moments & Stories

• David Brier sleeping in a Frank Lloyd Wright-designed room while branding the architect’s estate.
  (25:00-27:00)
• Chris Do’s stories of client-centric gestures—like custom parking spots and personalized welcomes—creating loyalty and a sense of “home.”
  (32:06-36:00)
• Real-world examples of big brands (Volvo, Sony) “doing the right thing” and earning customers for life through unexpected generosity.
  (36:00-37:29)
• Both Do and Brier share tales of politely firing or 'retiring' problematic clients, explaining how "knowing when to walk away" is a trait of mature, healthy brand builders.
  (49:45-57:33)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00 – Episode Introduction: Rich Brand vs Poor Brand
• 05:03 – “Branding is the art of differentiation.”
• 07:29 – Rich vs Poor Brand Culture Traits
• 09:42 – David Brier's Career & Motivation at 66
• 17:51 – What Makes David Brier Different
• 19:56 – How to Unleash Your David in a World of Goliaths (Book Ch. 21)
• 23:20 – The Power of Fanatical Intention
• 25:50 – "The Power of Love"—Creating Loyal Customers
• 32:06–36:00 – Low-Cost Gestures that Build Brand Loyalty
• 37:29 – Direction of Ideas: Outward vs. Inward
• 42:05–44:15 – Real Examples of Brand Generosity & Impact
• 44:57–49:20 – Accountability, Empowerment, and Ownership
• 49:45–57:33 – Firing/Retiring Clients & Setting Boundaries

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Resources & Closing

• David Brier’s Books:
  • "Brand Intervention"
  • "Rich Brand, Poor Brand"
• Find David Brier: risingabovethenoise.com
• Podcast Host: Chris Do

Tone: Conversational, candid, frank, and laced with both wit and actionable wisdom—classic Chris Do style and Brier's New York directness.

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This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking to build not just a differentiated brand, but a thriving, generous, and resilient brand culture.

Transcript

[A]

Today, on this episode, we're going to talk to David Breyer. He's written a couple books. One is called Brand Intervention, which we've reviewed before. But what we're interested in talking to him about today is rich brand, poor brand. He's going to share with us the principles of how brands can develop a rich culture. This is a qualitative thing. This is not about dollars and cents versus a poor culture. What we have to do. And there's some big themes that we touch upon, one which is about radical intention and accountability and how being generous and supporting and lifting not just customers, but your entire team and everyone in your orbit, that's the best thing that you can do. That's the most fertile thing that you can do to develop a rich culture.

[B]

Hi, my name is David Breyer, and you're listening to the Future.

[A]

So, David, what are we talking about today? What's on your mind?

[B]

Well, let's see. Between the two of us, we have a lot of decades of experience. Yes, we've been in the world of creating, like, creating brands, creating voices for all types of different companies, products, services, et cetera. But here's the thing that I found after, after I wrote Brain Intervention, which is very well received, people were like, oh, cool. You know, it's got large type. It gets to the meat really fast. And that was based on, at that point, three and a half decades of experience of creating brands. There was a new layer that started to unfold as I spoke to people, and that was, why did some of the brand initiatives and products and things that were created, not some. For some clients, it had amazing legs and it just crushed it. And others, they kind of struggled. I was like, what was the difference between these two? They were each given, you know, it's kind of like I. I use this as a. As a metaphor or analogy. So if I gave two chefs the exact same items, the same proteins, the same produce, the same, you know, one produces eh, and the other, with the same exact ingredients, produces something. And we're like, oh, my God, wow, I can't wait to get more of this. What was the difference and what I found in brands, the brands that really crushed it were the ones that had a culture that was capable of sustaining and maintaining the brand that was created. And there were qualities and traits that I found, probably qualities and traits that you also have found, whether it's for your own agency or that you've seen in clients offices. You're like, how come there's like a dysfunctionality there? Right? And so that's the thing that basically inspired rich brand, poor brand, because the. There were subtle nuances. And I think part of it also came to light when I became really good friends with Claude Silver from Vayner X. You know, that was. And she's just. She's the chief heart officer, works with Gary Vee. And to me, that told me more about Gary V. Is hiring her than just watching Gary Vee and his content. It was like he made that as a very deliberate choice to manage the internal culture, to keep that unit functioning as a healthy organism. Right. Holistically. And that was the thing that I say. And so that's what inspired rich brand, poor brand, because there are nuances, there are subtleties. We know that there are as. As customers, even. There are places that we enjoy shopping because there's a culture there, and there are places that we don't. There are companies that we enjoy interacting with, and there are individuals. I've been very fortunate to actually have some amazing clients who have been able to create incredible cultures. I mean, they are so. They're kind, they're gracious, they're big thinkers. Right. Sometimes people have the idea that there are, okay, someone who has very big goals, financially, et cetera, that. That is exclusive from them being kind or. Or actually caring about the other person or about you being. When you're having a meeting with them, you being the most important person in the room that you actually feel recognized. These were the subtle traits and nuances, and that was this thing that basically drove rich brand, poor brand, because that was the thing that made a brand really capable. Like, no matter. We could take anything. You put it in that environment and it would flourish. It would have wings.

[A]

Okay. We can't assume that somebody's watched our previous conversation together. Listen to that.

[B]

True.

[A]

So you're using three words. We need to put some definitions on these words. So you're using rich for. And the word brand.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

For the uninitiated, what is brand?

[B]

Whenever I'm asked, what is brand? I always bring it down to branding as kind of like an action. And that is the. And it's as covered in brand intervention. It is a forward definition that I basically wrote because I rejected the fact that there were, at this point, there's over 25,000 books written on branding. Over 25,000. So I was like, wait a second. With that many opinions, it's gotta be something simpler, a more fundamental truth. And that came down to this forward definition, the art of differentiation. So branding is the art of differentiation.

[A]

Okay, so then there's is there. If we go further, there's rich differentiation and there's poor differentiation.

[B]

There are rich, there are rich cultures and there are poor cultures that make the ability to differentiate and succeed as a brand possible. And, and rich is not okay. Rich doesn't mean, hey, what's their, what's their annual revenue? That's not what I mean by rich and poor doesn't mean small. There are very poor large companies and there are very rich small companies. So it is. These are quality. These are qualitative things. Now they will show up. Obviously a rich brand, a company that has a culture that's rich. Like when you walk into it, you feel cared for. When you walk into it, you know that everyone's got your back and that you've got their back. There's an actual sort of an unspoken brotherhood. And actually here's something even, even more to give a context. Michael Jordan was an always an amazing player, but he even acknowledged when he truly became an amazing player is when he advanced from focusing on how good could his game get to how do I make an amazing team? How do I empower others? That's very much the philosophy. That's, that's really part of rich, grand, poor brand.

[A]

Okay, that's excellent. So branding is the art of differentiation. So we hire consultants, advisors, creative types to help people learn how to be different in an artful way. And then when we talk about rich and poor, we're not talking about financials, we're talking about quality of culture. Poor culture, rich culture. What's it one trait of a rich culture and what's one trait of a poor culture?

[B]

Well, a poor culture would be one that was really only transactional and only metrics. And a rich one would be one where it was like, are we there to actually help the person in front of us? And am I there to help my colleagues? Am I there to actually not. Like we've seen, like, we've all seen this. We've all seen, we've gone into environments where it's highly competitive and, and if I'm going to make progress, it's going to be at the sacrifice of him or her. Where. As opposed. That's a poor, poor culture setting. A rich culture setting would be as I rise, they rise. And if they don't rise, I'm, I have, I have not achieved anywhere near my level of success.

[A]

Do we say, in other words, a poor culture is transactional. We need to talk about what that means. And then rich culture is more relational.

[B]

It's knowing it's knowing that the, that the, like, if you win, I win. It's no, it's knowing that those two things are actually connected at the hip. That is not just a nice little, you know, inspirational poster to have on the wall. I mean, I mean, you've been, you've, you've been doing this for how many, what, 30 plus years? So I've been doing this for 45. Right. So between the two of us, we have 75 years of experience. We've seen the good, the bad, the ugly. We've walked into rooms, and everyone that's listening to this has experienced this. Everyone has walked into a room where the room kind of felt bigger than you, whether it was unfamiliar or you didn't know the people, whatever, and you kind of shrunk. Everyone's experienced that. We've also experienced a room where we walked into it and we felt welcomed, we felt recognized, we felt like a valuable piece. That's, that's one very concrete example between, like a rich brand versus a poor brand.

[A]

Okay, I just, I'm trying to do the mental math. I'm sorry, I can't concentrate right now. How old is David? That's what I'm thinking this whole time. How old are you? Because I'm 53. And if you've been doing this for 15 years longer than me, my math is you're in your late 60s. Is that true?

[B]

I, I, in, in two weeks, I'm going to be 66.

[A]

Okay, so you started a little bit younger than me, which is good. How is David inspired, motivated, and passionate at 66? Because we're entering into retirement years and it seems like you're pretty fired up right now.

[B]

I, I am the. Whenever anybody talks to me about, I mean, honestly, I feel, I feel excited. I, I mean, I, I love what I, I love what I do. Yes, but let me clarify. I don't know if this was your path, but my path was this. I started out as a first. I was going to be an illustrator. You see some of these things. I was going to first be an illustrator because I was doing fine art paintings in my teens. I then was going to be an illustrator. I then decided, you know, if I'm just an illustrator, and I hand it off to an art director who doesn't know their ass for their elbow. Are they going to just decide to pick, you know, lime green, some horrible font, and just, and it's just going to be terrible. So at that point, I realized I need to probably widen my zone of responsibility. So then I said, I'm really going to be a designer because I was. I discovered some stuff from Herbal Balance that just blew my mind. And that's when I changed. Then that evolved into more comprehensive with the. With the branding aspect. Now, I say that only because what fired me up in the beginning was the being the artisan. Like, I mean, I've got. I've got. I've got a piece. I got this. There's a piece right here, which I have to twist the camera. But that's.

[A]

You.

[B]

Do you remember repetographs where you.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Okay, so repetographs. So I mean, I. That's how I actually way all before this was. All before there was any computer.

[A]

Talking about a pen, everybody.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But probably from Koh I Noor, maybe.

[B]

Yeah, that's right. Koh I Noor.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And so it was super, super fine needle fine. It was. And I. And that's what we used to design the logos, do all the various things. And so I had to kind of resistingly move into like this computer device thing. Right. And. But that was the artisan side. Now, for me, the joy. The joy is. I mean, I still design. And I. But I also love words, I love language, I love the story. I think we both know the. The incredible importance of story. But it's also. I love speaking with my clients and helping them find these blind spots, these things that they're just not looking at that are the. Those are the doors that we open. Those doors. All of a sudden they're like, we had no idea. And I love unearthing that potential. That's what lights me up.

[A]

Okay, so you like being able to meet people in their companies and their organizations and see. See the blind spots, connect dots, and then have that light bulb eureka moment as a shared experience between you and the client where you're like, wow, I didn't know we could be like this. I didn't know we could do that. Mo the majority of time, it's through creative directors, art directors, ECDs, those kinds of things. People. Because we were working mostly with ad agents.

[B]

Absolutely. And. And. And the thing is, is it's rewarding when you have that moment. And now it can actually continue to exist because there's the fertile soil of the right type of culture, which is the rich brand, poor brand part. If there's not that fertile soil, you can inspire one person. And I. Cause I only deal with CEOs. Did you. Did you primarily deal with CEOs when you were doing all the agency stuff.

[A]

Or towards the end of the design Service. Part of my life, I was dealing. Not some CEOs. If I'm dealing with a CEOs, a small company, I'm usually dealing with a CMO, somebody like. Okay, somebody in the C suite executive or. Yeah, a C suite executive. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So do you see yourself doing this until you can't do this anymore? Until the wheels fall off the wagon?

[B]

Probably. It's going to be in this form. It's going to be in this form or another. Or another. Because there's lots of. There's a number of things that I do. I mean, there was. I mean, just as a case in point, you know, because I'm asked like you are. I mean, I'm asked to speak at, you know, different events and different conventions, et cetera. Well, there was something that was very close to my heart, and I was asked to basically speak in Australia. I'd never been to Australia before. That's one hell of a flight, right? It's long and, you know, went down, treated like royalty. It was amazing. It was incredible. And, you know, I was the keynote speaker. And as a result, three and a half million dollars were raised. Was raised for something that I support and believe in. I love that I lit up the room just the way I would light up a client. So to me, that. That sort of igniting that fuse, that taking the gog, taking the shades off, where someone goes, oh, my God, that's wow. Like, wow. That just is infinitely exciting.

[A]

Okay, so you pause a little bit because maybe the expression of what you do might evolve and change, maybe as you continue to evolve in your path, maybe it's writing, public speaking, maybe it's another book or who knows what it is? But this is something that lights you up. We've established that. Very good. I have to ask that because it's not that often that I'm speaking to someone who's a little bit older than me. And people, the young people always ask me, chris, what do you do after you're. This. I'm like, there's no after this. This is kind of it. Why does there need to be an after this? That's the young person's perspective. So I'm gonna ask it on their behalf for you. Okay, let's get into this. All right. I'm just also curious about what your take on how you show up different in the world. So we're talking about branding as the art of differentiation. How is David Breyer different in the.

[B]

World from what I. I think I have two answers to that. I mean, I Think that there's kind of my idea and I think there's. The things that I hear which thankfully are not terribly. Like, it'll be really bad. It would be bad if the gap was like, whoa, what the heck, right? You know, my. My thing, my basic thing in the world is that I help. That I kind of help bust myths that limit a company, an individual, a movement, something, you know, I. That. That's kind of what I do, and I do it and I do it well and. And just based. And that's a lot of the feedback that I get. It's like, whoa, you open my eyes to seeing things that were. That I wasn't even looking at, that I didn't even realize were issues or important things to really take ownership of. So that's. So that's kind of, you know, it's. It's not. It doesn't seem to be terribly different out there, obviously. It's a matter of scale. You know, I think. I mean, we all. We all know the. The greats who have these, you know, incredible followings, you know, and obviously, the wider that following is, the more lies one can. It can impact. So, you know, that's, you know, so impact is always an important thing. Because I think one of the worst things that could ever happen is indifference. It's like. That is like the worst thing. It's like, oh, so and so left the room. We didn't notice. Ooh, that would be about the worst thing again.

[A]

So, wait, I didn't get the answer I was seeking here. How you. For where I asked you, how are you different? And then you said that there's the public perception or what people tell me, and then there's David. Like, I didn't get a clear answer on this one. Sorry, I'm holding your feet to the fire. How are you different in this world?

[B]

How am I different? Like, from. From others? Like, how am I. How am I different in terms of the art of differentiation from that vantage point?

[A]

Yes, yes. Like, DAV Breyer is a brand.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, totally. So I guess I would say that I. How I'm different is that I'm kind of, you know, one of my. There's a couple of nicknames that I. That kind of follow me around here and there. That I'm the brand father, that I'm the. That I'm the slayer of the mundane. So I'm definitely known to. To ruffle up, like, closely held myths. That's kind of how I'm different. That I. I'm known for being very Direct and very. That's, that's my New York, the New York side of me being a Brooklyn kid. And so that's, so that's an element that I'm different. I mean, you know, I mean, Gary, you know, Gary's got his. Okay, the, the Ukrainian kid who moved to Jersey who did the wine shop thing with his dad and da, da, da. And, and so Gary's got, he says that, you know, you, you've got, you've got your, you know, your, your, your very, you're very analytical, you're introspective, you're, you're, you, you got, you got the, the quiet side, but you're looking and you're highly observant and you know, and so, and you know, and you take someone like Brian Collins, who, like, Brian's got his angle, but, you know, and that's fine. He's sort of, he's sort of in what I call that sort of New York elite, you know, sector. But where I fall, I was. I would say that I am different in that I'm the rebellious one that, that, that shakes. Shakes the tree to see how much, how much we can get out of it.

[A]

All right, excellent. So you're, you're kind of more like. You got that Brooklyn, New York edge to you. You're gonna say it as it is, matter of fact, and you've been doing this for a very long time. So the grandfather makes a lot of sense to me. An experienced person who's kind of seen it up close, friends for a number of decades. So you're a battle tested veteran. Okay, wonderful. All right, let's get into the culture part. So how do I jump in on this conversation with you so that we can push and pull a little bit to see, like, where this might relate to a lot of people. Okay, what page are we on? I'll. Everybody open your books. Hold on.

[B]

All right, so. So here, the perfect page. Perfect page is page 153, which is chapter 21. All right, chapter 21. How to unleash your David in a world of Goliaths. And that basically is the sort of the summary of the 20 points, the 20 traits. And that is probably the best place because we can literally cherry pick from so many of these because they all touch upon, in a very summarized manner, the points that are throughout the book.

[A]

Okay, when you said what page, what page number did you say?

[B]

It's, it's this one. Chapter. Chapter 21.

[A]

Chapter 21. Okay. Yeah. See, so I, I started basing numbers in my Mind like, wait a minute, this is not Goliath and David here.

[B]

Hold on. And that's why, that's why it opens this one. I mean, I, this is one of my favorite quotes from Jim Rohn. You know, learn to work harder on yourself than you do on your job. If you work hard on your job, you can make a living. But if you work hard on yourself, you'll make a fortune. You know, that sets the stage.

[A]

Great quote, by the way. Did, where does this artwork come from?

[B]

This was the, the artwork was basically it was a, a lot of kind of semi created and some, some little bits and scraps that I kind of. I, I what? I found some pieces here and there on, in my various, you know, various stock, stock agencies that I was working with. So they inspired it because I wanted this, I wanted this very much to feel like a gallery. It reminded me of when I used to go to galleries in SoHo growing up in New York. And I just wanted it to feel like that kind of artwork. I want it to be earth in our world of such, everything being so sterile. I wanted it to be earthy and I wanted it to be organic.

[A]

Is that Claude on the back of the book?

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Now there's context for the photo. Fantastic. Okay. How to unleash your David in a world of Goliaths. Okay, let's go.

[B]

So, you know, Goliaths are cumbersome and nowhere near as nimble as you. That is your superpower. Here's your rich brand, poor brand checklist to put all this into action. So number one, so empower others. Shift focus from sales and pitches to empowering colleagues and customers. Help others grow and your brand will thrive. You know, and each chapter obviously is, provides more than that. But that's, that's just again, you walk into a space where, I mean, here's the question that's I think really gives a context. Why is it that car salespeople have the worst reputations, right? Like, who wants to go? You get.

[A]

Oh, you get.

[B]

People cringe. Oh, I don't want to go and see. Why? Because they will show up and they'll give you a big smile and they'll shake your hand. They'll look at your little kid and say, oh, that's such a beautiful little kid. What can we have you driving out in here today? You know, it's kind of like you get cringy. It's like, when do I get my shot from this visit? Right? And so, you know, that's probably the most extreme example of that. Kind of. Right. So. But the place where you go, where you feel cared for, where someone actually pauses, stops, looks you in the eye and asks you a question and shuts up unless you answer. I mean, how often does. It doesn't happen enough. Right. You know, fanatical intention. Right. I mean that's, that's the second one. You know, to survive fully, we must connect. To connect we need to recognize the necessity of community own that. You know, that was from a, I was having a conversation with, with someone who had also I'd shared a stage with. He's like a super affluent, like a multi, multi, multi, multi millionaire successful entrepreneur. And we ended up speaking and he talked about this fanatical intention and I love that phrase because that really the people that I find, I mean, you tell me. I mean I. What I have found the people who are the most successful have a fanatical intention, you know, not only for what they do, but what for you get out of it, for your side of the experience. Have you found that to be the case?

[A]

I don't know. I'm, I'm mapping what you're saying to my own experiences. Like I know. Well, there's intention in what, what is fanatical intention?

[B]

Well, I mean it's like it's, it doesn't, it doesn't lessen, it doesn't dilute, it doesn't, it's, it's to the point of being almost obsessed. I mean let, let, let, let's look at it. I mean I would say that Gary, Gary Vee has a fanatical intention with regard to, when he's talking about something, he's all in, he's not going halfway. You know, that to me is an example of fanatical intention. You know, you look at, I mean you look at Frank Gehry, the architect, there's no way that he's going to produce those completely rule breaking structural designs, choice of materials, walls that aren't straight and all the various things without having a fanatical intention, you know. And, and I just, you know, and I just completed, for example there's a. So you know that, you obviously know that the architect, Frank Lloyd Wright, you know who he is. So Frank Lloyd is. There's an 800 acre estate about four hours away from my office. So the end of last year, for a couple years they were like, David, we'd love to have you like help us with branding this. Da da, da da. And so the end of last year they were like, we got you in the budget. I'm like, great. So the first quarter of this year, working on branding that which I never in a million years would have thought. I'm working on probably the most celebrated American architect there is. And I got to visit the facility, the buildings, they put me there overnight. I slept in, like, one of the rooms that he designed. And. And I saw the actual. His studio and the drawing drafting table where he did the drawings for the Guggenheim Museum. Right. So, I mean, this is like, wow. This is pretty amazing. He had fanatical intention. He designed over 1100 buildings, and over 500 of them got built. More prolific than anyone in history. So to me, fanatical intention. There are different things that one can have fanatical intention about. Gordon Ramsay has fanatical intention, you know, and it shows up in different ways. Some are louder. Claude. Claude Silver has fanatical intention with regard to the heart aspect of culture and the people that she supports. And it shows up in different ways. It doesn't. It's not one flavor. It can. It could. It could be. Have more flavors than a Baskin Robbins joint. Right? Yeah, but some. But someone that wouldn't be that committed. It definitely aligns with commitment and conviction. And being that committed to state that publicly is absolute to. In my book. That's fanatical intention. And I. And. And that's. And that is a. A wonderful attribute. Great. So 3. So is the power of love. Want a killer brand? Fall in love with your customers. When they feel the love, they'll move mountains for you. I was speaking to a mastermind the other night, and I said, are there. I said, look, are there a lot of advances with regard to AI? Yes. Is everyone trying to leverage AI to accelerate this and to increase the efficiency of that? Yes. But it is my prediction that the companies that are going to absolutely outlast and out and outperform other companies will be the ones that actually. Are people centric that. Because there's no machine that is going to make you or I feel the recognition of, wow. I was just understood. No matter how well scripted it is, no matter how perfectly stated it is, no matter how much they've humanized the voices or the videos or whatever AI comes up with, there's. It's like, you know, I mean, if you're having a conversation, like, I, I've, I've seen you. You travel with your, with your, with your. Is it. Do you have one. One son or do you have multiple kids? Two boys. All right, so there's. There's no way, like, when you're listening to Your boy share something from, from his heart. He's had a moment, he's had an experience, he's had something that he'll remember and he'll cherish. There's. And when he shares that with you and you listen to that, there's no way that a machine, no matter how good, can ever replace you in terms of your affinity, your admiration, your appreciation, and that love. So that's what that, that's what that one is about.

[A]

Okay. To do things with this kind of love would almost always, not always, but almost involve, I think, a certain level of craft and things would take longer to do. You can't push people through a line. You can't turn tables as quickly, and you have to spend time talking, getting to know people. So then I automatically start to think there's a price tag attached to all this.

[B]

Can be. Can be. I mean, but you, but have it. You. I mean, there. At the same time, sometimes there's an incredible something that's just a little gesture, you know? A little gesture. It's not, not something that's big, not expensive, not even long in duration, but a gesture where someone just. And you're like, wow, I. That was amazing. Right? You know, it's like, yes. So, so there's a certain. There's a grace to it. So, yeah. I mean, oftentimes, I think you're right. There is definitely going to be a percentage of those that are going to be. That's the premium that we're willing to pay for that.

[A]

In your life, have you experienced those small gestures that you can recall? I have some, but, yeah. Are there things that you're like, hey, this doesn't cost any money, but they did it. And it made me feel different.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I, I. What comes to mind are some, probably a few restaurants where the culture of the restaurant just, even the way the person sat us down and then just. And just greeted us and just. And welcomed. In fact, there was a place, there was this amazing restaurant in the Bahamas. It's called Flying Fish. It overlooks the water. My wife and I, we had a little break on our little visit, and so we went there. Someone said, that's a good place to go. We went there. Oh, my. It was unreal. I mean, the food was unreal. The care was unreal. They were so cheerful. It's like, welcome. I mean, they actually was like, welcome. It was like that element of being a stranger. Like, no, you were instantly family. They were like, welcome, come. And they were so pleased and happy to service Us and provide the most beautifully plated food, the most incredibly. And, and we, we would have a question. And no question was met with, huh, you should know better, right? It was like, oh, glad you asked. And they were so thrilled to share. And we, what we found out was that this chef who was ranked the second in the, in the top ranked chef in the Bahamas, completely self taught. And you could tell he created a culture, an absolute rich brand culture just in his people. They were proud of everything they brought. They were proud to share that deliciousness that you were going to enjoy. And so that's what I remember. What about you?

[A]

I have a bunch. So I'm going to do something like really low cost things. I'm going to credit my former business mentor, Keir McLaren. He's passed away since then, so that's why I say former. He told me, like, you know, every time I come to a place of business, I walk around, I try to imagine what it's like to be a customer of yours. So he gave us three recommendations. He says, why are the, the customer parking spaces over there? That's not a good spot. I said, well, because I want to take good care of my employees. I give them the best parking spaces. He goes, okay, I understand the intention behind that, but if I'm struggling to get into this thing, it's already starting the meeting poorly. Give them the second best parking spaces, then reserve two of them. He goes, and don't give them directions on where to park. Put a sign up for them like, oh, I could do that. He goes, when they come up the stairwell and they enter into your office, put up a, you know, I'm sure your designers can do something where it says, welcome David Breyer. It's not just, hey, it's tailored for them. And these changes cost us nothing. We move some people around, some people moaning or groaning, it's fine. And before they arrive, somebody prints it out on a piece of paper. It's 3 cents paper and 8 toner. Put it in there. And we've been told many times with different people. I've never felt so special nor important in my life. And I actually took a selfie in front of my own parking sign because I feel like I'm an A list actor spot reserved for me. I feel like I'm the CEO of this company. And so if they bring that energy into the room, we're gonna have a good meeting. We'd have to royally eff it up, but even if we did, they'd still probably show us a lot of grace because of how everything was framed. And then I stayed at this fishing lodge in which I'm going to again. When you get off the airplane and you pull up to this floating lodge, everybody there is going to learn your name. You're on a first name basis and they kind of know something about you, so they're taught to do that. But as you get off the plane, they don't just say welcome, they say welcome home. That word, home, it's a trigger word. It means this is your place and we're glad to see you again. So there's little things like that and then there's big corporate things I think that you can do. This costs a little bit of money, but I want to give credit here because there are two instances where big corporations did right by me and they could have done differently and that's fine. But they chose to do the right thing, which makes me, I think, a customer for life. One is Volvo. Share the story so my car's out of warranty. It just got out of warranty. And there's been an annoying defect that I never got around to. So when I finally brought it in, they're like, oh yeah, it's going to cost $1,200. I'm like, wait a minute, I know I'm out of warranty, but that piece of metal trim is bent and it cut my finger the other day. So I reached out to corporate and they're like, we got you. Please bring it in. We'll take care of this thing. And to their word, they took care of it. That was awesome. Number two was Sony. I love to share a story. I buy the Sony flagship receiver, AV receiver, and after a couple years of use, there's one thing that wasn't working. So they said, hey, send it in. I'm like, cool, whatever box it up, sent it in. They said, your receiver's so old, relatively speaking, we can no longer repair nor replace this. So the only thing we could do is give you a new receiver. I'm like, okay, cool. So what does Sony do? They send me a brand spanking new flagship receiver that is probably more than the one I paid for, has more features and they're like, that's yours. I'm like, okay, I like this. People who stand behind their product no matter what and they don't get into, well, you know, it's too old or you're out of warranty. It's not really our problem. I think that's the thing that plagues a lot of companies and organizations today. Where they stick to the letter of the law. And they are, it's not our problem. It's not our problem. And you keep saying that long enough and you have a different problem. You have no customers. And so what am I doing right now? I'm advertising for Olis, the fishing lodge, for Volvo and for Sony because it took care of us. One last little example. We're staying in a seaside resort in Vietnam somewhere. I forget the name of it. It is a beautiful high end hotel. My, my wife, she rents the villa. It's quite expensive to be there. We go out for the day, we come back, there's two things they said, we'll do your laundry, so just leave your laundry here and we'll take care of that and we'll bring it back same day. I'm like, that's service. I like that. But it's this little touch that they did, which was, my children have laptops, iPads, all kinds of stuff. They put a little Velcro strap and cleaned up all the cables and left it there for us. And any advice that was out, they left a microfiber cloth so we can wipe off the surfaces. And my wife's like, hey, where's mine? I'm like, I don't know where yours is, honey, but leave mine alone. Because you did not leave a laptop or a phone out for them to take care of. But the boys, it's everywhere. And so of course they got this little surprise. The total cost of the Velcro strap and the microfiber cloth I think is about like 35 cents. But the feeling is this is a great place and we're going to have a memory and an experience to share with other people. So I'm a hundred percent in on this. Okay. All right, what's the next one?

[B]

There's one thing we all do. We each have ideas. Some ideas go inward, some go in all directions, others go outward. Ideas going outward, benefiting the most people are the things worth feeding. Pay attention to the direction others offer you in the way of ideas. Some ideas are built on growth. Some are built on destruction, relying on the failure of others to win. Others are built on conservation, which is built on the idea that creation is a scarce commodity that is false and destructive. Trust me, no matter what, remember, ideas have direction. The rich brand knows the true power that results from the quality of ideas and how much they are shared outwardly. Like handing out sunshine on a cloudy day. The more we extend outward, the more everyone feels the warmth. The poor brand has long forgotten the power of an idea replacing rays of sunshine with cynicism, which I call the energy drink of doom. It only looks at what's coming inward and has lost sight of the importance of giving outwardly.

[A]

Okay, I get that there's a. One of my favorite lines in the book, the obstacle is away by Ryan Holiday, and there's a Latin quote, which I'm not going to try to say, but the rough translation is, there's nobility in doing humble things well. And you and I, as creatives, as artists, possibly can appreciate that. And I think humans can see that. When you are so good at your craft, it becomes transcendental and it becomes artful, where they're stepping back and looking at the plates, the fork, the distance between the edge, between each other. And there's just a level to the. Of attention to detail. And I always describe it to folks that when you see someone love what they do so much, it gives you goosebumps, especially if you're the recipient of this love. Right. Like, if you go to. I think the reason why massages or spas or cost as much as they do are places that people talk about in affectionate tones is because you've never been so pampered in your life. They take your feet and they gently ease it into a warm bath of water with rose petals, lemongrass and ginger or whatever they're putting in there. And they gently scrub your feet. And that's just the beginning of the experience. While you're sipping on a cup of tea or something like that, you have a little biscuit, and you're like, wow, this is. I can get used to this life. And people really care, and they show you that they care. And I think the Internet has been a great place to see this, demonstrated that we can see accounts where there's a guy who's, like, folding pizza boxes. Have you seen this? And he's doing it seven times faster than everyone else. And he's just throwing it over them, or they just keep landing. I'm like, what? There's repetition of motion here that he's mastered muscle memory, that he can just do this blindfolded and it's a. It's a thing of beauty to see. Or conversely, we see some kind of Chinese pottery master potter who's, like, making a little tea kettle and just slowly building the layers, the handle, and firing in. It's like, wow, it's just so soothing to watch. We appreciate that. We can see that. Okay. All right. So is this how we start to love on our customers?

[B]

Oh, yeah, this yeah, this. See, I mean, this is like, you know, this goes into so many awesome little examples. It's basically, it basically goes over the value of others. And here it's like, it's how Larry David and Jerry Seinfeld tapped into each other's comedic genius and used it to fuel the talents of Julia, Louis Dreyfus, Jason Alexander and Michael Richards. It's how Spielberg, Scorsese, Lucas and Coppola formed a close knit group in the 1970s and 80s, frequently collaborating and sharing ideas and supporting each other's ideas. And it goes on to, it goes on to Motown and all these other legendary things that changed the landscape of culture. And so that's, so that's the element with regard to that.

[A]

Okay, so there's two parts to this, which is one, if you're the brand, instead of waiting to reciprocate, you could just take that first act of generosity. But if you're a human, you could do that and we can get a sense of the culture, the people, as to how they also want to lift you up. I think a lot of the ideas that you're writing about are intermeshed with each other. It's not like this is a separate idea because this calls back to some of the other points you already brought up.

[B]

So, yes, I mean, one. So obviously there's, there's the, our growth concept, there's the, there's the destruction, the lessening concept. But the bottom line is, is ideas. Ideas are three in terms of direction. So there are ones that go outward that actually is, that's, that's, that's being. That's basically creating space. That's, that's granting, you know, recognition to what's, what's out there are those that are inward. And I will tell you, on that particular point, to give clarity on that, it was when I had one client of mine who will remain nameless, but a client of mine, we went out to lunch after some years, after we did a rebrand for them. He sat me down, we were sitting over, eating some nice Japanese food, and he goes, David, by the way, thank you. I said, for what? He goes, for making it possible for me to do what I did. I just donated $50 million to causes that I support. And I'm not done. He goes, I'm not, I didn't do that. Now I'm like, okay, I'm done. I'm just, I'm not gonna. No. And he's continuing. But he was not able to do that without having helped him build up what he built Up. And it was at that moment I was like, wow. I had a whole new framework of what I did and the amount of pride that I felt that I knew that I had helped him. Flip side, I have helped entrepreneurs, founders who only cared about how many commas and zeros they had in their bank account. I mean, it's very narcissistic. It's like they're only. It's like, okay, how much money did I make from that? How much money? It's total and that's inward. So the thing about that, that, that is the most dissatisfying. And I could help someone make millions or billions of dollars, but with that kind of mentality, that is the most dissatisfied, unsatisfying experience because it goes nowhere. It doesn't benefit, it doesn't. It doesn't enrich.

[A]

What's the third one there? A third one? Or did I miss hear that?

[B]

Yeah, there's the inward and the outward. There's a third one which is basically. It could just be like sort of all over the place, sort of like dispersing. And that's just like. That's not productive at all, is it?

[A]

The outward idea is how you can give to others. The inward idea is how can they take from others. And then what is the one that dissipates?

[B]

That's being busy without any, without anyone being the beneficiary of any of that busy activity. It's just kind of like random busyness.

[A]

All right, so I, I think unfortunately a lot of corporate America is stuck in busy work.

[B]

Yeah. Without question. And. And the, and they're chasing the. They're chasing the next shiny item. As far as tools.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. Makes a lot of sense. The confusion that sometimes my team will get into is, Chris, we've done all this stuff. I'm like, I know you've done all this stuff. I don't discredit or discount how many hours you put into this, but where are the clickthroughs? Where's the revenue? You've done things, but I have nothing positive to show for what you've done. So I don't wanna manage people's time. I don't even wanna manage to energy. I just wanna look at the outcomes together and say, look, is this what we're working towards? Then empower you to make all the decisions so that you don't come back and say, well, you told me to do this. I didn't tell you to do anything. And told you, let's get more views on this video. Or let's Increase our sub rate. We want that. And how you want to get there is up to you. But people are very uncomfortable with that kind of responsibility and accountability. They're used to saying, you tell me what to do so I don't have to have any accountability.

[B]

Which is the worst scenario. Because like you said, there's no accountability, there's no responsibility, there's no ownership. Yeah. And they're basically, oh, okay. Because the worst scenario is for, you know, it's kind of like, let's even put in the context of rich brand, poor brand. The company that you and I, this is you and me being a customer of a company. The company that you and I, that we have to convince a company through a call or two or three or a text or whatever because, because of our demand and insistence and then they finally do the right thing is not as rewarding or nor will it create any kind of loyalty on our part as if they, that company actually had the initiative coming from them outward. Right. And so that's like the difference there. It's like, what's the level of ownership?

[A]

If you're in that space where you're used to being busy, not giving, maybe not taking, what is the remedy to that? You're just dissipating, you're spending a lot of energy and you're using a lot of resources. You know, this is a very cruel and judging statement to say, like, you're not worth the oxygen in the room or something like that. You're just wasting energy, fuel that could be used for something much more productive. How do we get out of that mindset or that pattern of behavior?

[B]

Well, I mean, I think it's. If one is, if one is the leader, the founder or the manager or whatever, like that one has to basically look and go, wait a second, what, you know, what kind of environment am I creating that actually nobody wants to take any ownership. You know, if one is in the position, in a junior position where they're in that environment, you sit down and I mean, let me ask you this. I know that I've, I know that I've probably retired probably about three, three or four clients during my career. You probably retired some. Right? Okay. So the thing is, is that they weren't willing to adapt to actually have the proper kind of healthy interaction and accountability and might be finger pointing or whatever. It shows up in different ways. But I don't care about the symptoms and how it shows up. I'm looking at, is there a foundation to create so that to me, if someone's In a junior position like this, I would say what, you know, sit down with the manager or ideally the owner and just go, here's what I'm running into. It's. And here. Here are the problems that I see it's causing. Here are the symptoms of how it's showing up. Here's how I actually propose to make it, to actually remedy it. Now, hopefully that remedy, that third point would include, you know, your own accountability. The everyone starts being accountable if we all rise up in accountability. It's kind of like that great line from. From Al Pacino. I think it's like, you know, if. If we don't make it as individuals, we die as a team. No, if we don't make it as a team, we die as individuals.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's the kind of mentality. And I would present it. And if that was met with resist, with resistance, like, no, no, no, no, no. You know, you're in the wrong place. That is not the culture. And you just say, okay, you know, I wish you success. Thank you very much. And there's the door. Because our greatest power and our greatest freedom is the ability to know when to end the game that just is not working, and walk out and say, no.

[A]

Okay. I've had to fire a few clients before you. You say very politely, retire. I'd like to know how you retired them. I'll share a story. I think this is a great way to end this conversation. It's like, with a lot of positivity. Let's just enter on a little negative note, everybody. We'll lift you up and we'll stab you on the way down. Go ahead, give us one.

[B]

Well, one was. So one was we did a rebrand. I thought it was a very, very successful rebrand. We did. I knew we did all the right steps that we would normally do, and it would absolutely, in the right hands, be successful. I'm looking at the facts so that I don't want to throw anyone under the bus here. So I'm just.

[A]

Yeah, extract the parts that are hurt. Right, right. That's fine. I'm just curious how you handled this conversation.

[B]

How I hand. How I. How I handled it was. Well, basically, what ended up happening was I was. I was called and by the. By the owner who said, you know, we're not exactly getting the kind of like, you know, you know, expected like a new client acquisition. They were getting this, that the other. They just weren't getting. They weren't getting the outcomes that they were hopefully going to get. And I said, well, Tell me what you're doing. Because I never. One thing that I've learned is I never take another person's conclusion as fact. I verify the facts for myself. And so I said to tell me, tell me what you're doing. You know, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, I'm doing everything, everything you told us to do. You know, this is how we're implementing. Da da da da da, and da da da da da da. I said, okay, I'm taking notes. I then go and inspect for myself. And I find none of that to be true. And I know. And now there are some clients who are malicious. This, I didn't consider this malicious. I consider this absent minded and highly unaware. And so at that point, I just sent an email and I said, you know, I'd recommend doing xyz and I think that that will work. And I kind of left it at that. And I just, I didn't try and go, we're over, we're done. Cut the umbilical cord. I mean, I just kind of was like, I just get. I just left it with a nice little send off and. And then that was it. I let it die its own death.

[A]

That was very gentle.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, I'm gonna ring some violence to this conversation.

[B]

This is a Quentin Tarantino segment.

[A]

Well, this is fair because you said retire and that was kind of an easy. I said fire and I had to fire somebody. So I was working with the founder, co owner of a visual effects company. They were one of the odd shops in town and they told me they wanted this big dreaming thing. Like I said, oh, okay. Our reference point is DreamWorks, the theatrical animated logo of DreamWorks. Do you remember this? Do you know the DreamWorks logo? I think you see like the word DreamWorks and then you see a ripple and then you pan up and it's a boy sitting on a crescent moon, fishing. And then the dreamworks logo appears inside that D. And we pull back, so there's several reveals and misdirections, which is a pretty like, smart conceptual thing to do as a mini story. There's this other one. It's like Valhalla Pictures or something. And there's this Viking boat that goes across the clouds. There's nobody in it, but it's like. And then it ends on the sail and it's like the boat. And like, yeah, that's so. These are epic. These are things. And he's like, I want something like that. I'm like, great, I'm gonna make you that. So we go in, we do all These storyboards. And this is pre. Pre AI. It's not so easy to paint photorealistic compositions in a sequence to show these different ideas. Presented a bunch of ideas to him. He goes, oh, oh, I need some time to think about this. Like, okay. So he comes back and we meet again and he says, hey, Chris, Yeah? I'm curious, do you have other ideas? Like what are you looking for? He goes, I don't know. But, you know, like when I hired my interior designer, she just pulled sheets and she showed me a bunch of things and I was just able to.

[B]

I like this.

[A]

I don't like that. I thought maybe it was going to be more like that. Each one of these frames was carefully crafted to tell a very specific story. I'm not just pulling random things from a book and saying, which one of these would you like me to make for you? He right, right. And I said to him, I can see that we have two different ideas as to what we want to do here and I just don't think we're a good fit for you. So I'm going to go back to my office and we're going to send you your money back and I wish you the best of luck. He goes, wait, wait, wait, wait. I'm not saying that you should go away. I said, well, why didn't you think about it, okay? And then get a message or a text message from him saying, hey, I thought about it, I'm happy to take the money back. And we sent, we refunded their deposit, everything was cool. And then I see what they did and I kid you not, I don't know if you remember the Foundry. I forget what the Foundry is called, but they had a bunch of like weird typefaces. They would have things like Crack House and it was like Helvetica, but it's broken, you know, Distress. His whole identity was a font poorly designed with some cracks in it. So we went from this big epic story, fantasy making make believe to all lowercase jacked up typeface. And that's what he paid for. So I'm pretty sure some designer, I was gonna use different words, some designer showed him a bunch of different outputs for computer. It's like, here's your logo. He goes, that one. Excellent. Now I will sell. I'll tell you this, this story is kind of dark. I'm not holding grudges. I don't care. I just don't want small minded people as part of my client base. It's not worth the agony that they're going to Put me through the aggravation. I'll tell you something. Years later, this very person develop a brain tumor and passed away. Not saying that anybody deserves this from rejecting a logo from Christo. I'm.

[B]

No, but I. But, but yeah, you reminded me of. Probably there were. Earlier in my career, probably like the first 15 years I. I had a few more of these and I think it was just where my. How I presented stuff that, that opened the door to that. But I'll know. I'll. I'm not sure what I want, but I'll know it when I see it, which is about. That is the number that is like the worst possible client you could ever have. Oh, so this is a. So this is a telepathic exercise. I'm supposed to tap into some reserve. Something that you don't quite know or have awareness of, but it's somewhere buried deep into somewhere. And that is about. For those that are listening. If you ever had someone tell you that, say, say thank you, but no thank you.

[A]

I think that's beyond telepathy. Because in telepathy you could read their mind. You'll know what the. Their mind has nothing. They're saying, I'm indecisive. I have no idea what good or bad is. And until I see enough and feel like I've had enough, oh, no, I'm gonna taste every item in the buffet and I'll tell you which is good. But I have no conception, no history, no experience. So we want to only work with, yeah, discerning buyers of creative services, people who are like, so particular. Like, you know what? That's not the right shade of white. I'm like, I agree. I'm glad you caught that. That's who I want to work with. Not like, oh, any shade of white will do. I'm not so sure. So let's paint this 55 times.

[B]

And, and the. And the other side of it is people might be not up to that level of being that decisive, but are they trainable, are they coachable to help give them. Here's the criteria by which we're going to do this. This is because otherwise, if we don't establish. If we don't basically set the framework for here's the criteria that Then it falls into the land of do I like this lipstick?

[A]

Does it.

[B]

How does it make me look in the mirror? You know, it's like, it's. It's just crazy.

[A]

But to that point, and your whole tramble coachable thing is I do have clients who are not discerning buyers or creative services. But what they do have is that they know what they don't know.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

So when they say, chris, I don't know how to respond to this, I'm like, okay, so you don't know which one to pick. I'll pick for you. This is the one. And they're like, that's the one then.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Because I trust you and I know I hired the right person. I said, excellent.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Move forward. That's fine, too. So they know what they don't know. It's like, wow. You see things in ways that I've never seen. I'm like, that's why I do what I do. And that's why you do what you do.

[B]

That's why I'm hired. That's why you hired me.

[A]

David Breyer is the author of Brand Intervention and Rich Brand, Poor Brand. He's been my guest today, holding up the book. David, if people want to find out more about you, where should we send them?

[B]

If they. I would say go to risingabovethenoise.com R I S I N G and you will find plenty there, including more information about both Rich Brand, Poor Brand and Brand Intervention and other other little freebies that you can get that are actually just there.

[A]

Wonderful. Thank you very much for being a guest today.

[B]

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.