← The Futur with Chris Do
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- [00:00]
Chris
Why do we care about what other people think? Where do you think that comes from? Who do we learn this from? And how do we define our own identity and self worth when we export so much of our own value to other people and their opinions? And why do you think you or other people do it? So that your own ability to regulate your happiness, your joy, your self worth is at the whim of other people.
- [00:27]
Jody
It must come from school. I feel like it did for me. It's like you're surrounded by people who ultimately all want to be the same and it's seen as a good thing to be the same and a bad thing to be different. So therefore you're trying to be the same as everyone else while also making sure that everyone else thinks you're the same as everyone else so you really don't stand out. Maybe it's a survival thing that then goes through to high school and then goes through people peer pressure and then people maybe never really get out of that until they're intentional about it.
- [01:02]
Chris
Wonderful. I love that you always spare your parents from this kind of conversation. So this is very consistent with our conversation. Jodi.
- [01:10]
Jody
My parents, yeah, it's always like, it's.
- [01:12]
Chris
Not my parents, I promise you. It's society, it's school, it's other people. But I think a lot of it is related to your parents and hopefully I'll get you to have a slightly different perspective on this. And I agree with you. Schooling is a big part of the problem, but not all the problem. I think it has a lot to do with our feeling of security. We don't feel safe. And we know that in social structures we need to belong to a group to be, to be safe. It's because the one who's left behind, the one who's last to be picked on the sports team or the one who's put in the corner, who's eating lunch by themselves. They are not safe at all. Especially when we're young. We don't have a good sense of identity. And I know this speaking firsthand because we moved around a lot when, when I was younger. My parents worked really hard, they got better jobs, made more money. So we moved out of like lower income neighborhoods, like kind of not gang, but like not safe neighborhoods with bars on windows and cars parked on lawns, that kind of stuff. With too many people living in one small house to eventually moving into an upper middle class neighborhood where things were very different. But we moved around a lot and so my sense of identity was all effed up. It was really messed up because I was thinking, I'm not tough enough to be in this. This group of hooligans and gang members. I'm just not that kind of person. I don't want to hurt anybody, and I don't want to break the law and commit crimes. And then we move into the more affluent neighborhoods, and all of a sudden I don't feel white enough, I don't feel posh enough, I don't feel cultured enough. And just feeling always outside. And so when you can't get security from outside, I think you have to go inside. But we'll talk more about that later. There's this expression. I think it's Sir Ken Robinson's talk, I think the most viewed TED talk ever about how schools really mess us up. How they're the byproduct of an industrial age to create human computers, to be frontline soldiers in. In the trenches or. Or to be on a ship or work in dangerous jobs. And so when somebody dies, they just switch you out. You can do the same job. We're. We're meant to just replace other people who are laboring. And so part of that is to stand by individuality because individuals create problems for the machine when it's not predictable is what it does. It becomes a problem. You don't get the opportunity, you get demoted, or you get chipped off to Siberia as a concept. So this whole thing is we. We learn quite early that we must go along to get along because there's security in the group. That's why this group think. That's why a few brave individuals will say, let's eat here. And everybody doesn't want to go against that, even if that's not what they would prefer. They go along with the group because they don't want to stand out. Now, the part I want to bring up is about the parents. I don't know about you, but parents try to raise you in the best way they know how. And they have a reward and punishment system, however subtle. The most extreme version of this is you eat. That's your reward. Or you get locked in the basement of a closet and you get whipping or a hot iron to your arm or something like that. That would be the ver. The worst possible version of this. But the more subtle version of this is, I'm proud of you. You got great grades. And. And you should do this. And I think what's happening is. And. And it's not through malice that they're doing this. It's through wanting to protect you from suffering and a. And a hard life. And oftentimes, the script. And you can check me on this, the script is almost always, I didn't get to do this. I want Jody to be able to do this. Almost always. With most parents, it's like, I never made it to the finals. I didn't get my PhD. So you should. I didn't work in government, and you should. And so there's this expression from a yogi. His name is Sadhguru, and he was asked a lot of questions, and he gives profoundly funny and interesting answers, which really kind of throw you for a loop. Not the typical yogi. And he says, children are born perfect. It's our parenting that messes them up. So he says that the job of the parent is to do as little harm as possible to your children because. And this is an interpretation of what he's saying, we are living vicariously through them to correct the mistakes of our past. Like, don't date that person. Because that didn't go well. Well, that's funny. You dated people like that when you were a kid. Don't do this drug or that drug. It didn't go well. Oh, that's interesting. You were doing those drugs, too, weren't you? Mom or dad and I. I had this debate with a friend of mine, and my friend says, oh, are you really proud of your children? I said, inside, I'm really happy that they're pursuing what it is they want to do in their life. But I very rarely have ever said to them, I'm proud of you. Because to say I'm proud of you means there must be times when I'm not proud of you. So that means there are behaviors that you'll do that I want to reward and behaviors that I want to punish. I'm proud of you, period, for existing. I don't need to dole it out. I don't want to control you. And we can get into that more if that interests you. But there's. Those are very subtle things to say. I'm proud of you. You know, like my parents, my mom especially, will say, honey, I'm so proud of you. You're doing so many amazing things. And I nod, I kiss her and I hug her. But it doesn't mean anything to me because I know my mom loves me unconditionally, and if I were sweeping the streets, she would still be proud of me. But it's a phrase that people use, and they're not always intentional with what it might actually mean. Below that, it is in A way, according to Marshall Rosenberg, a violent form of communication. And you might be sitting here thinking, how could saying you're proud or somebody be violent? Well, his definition of violence is prejudging and pre diagnosing. Anytime I add a value statement to something that I'm saying, I'm speaking violently. So pride is saying, well, that's a value statement, just as I'm ashamed of you is a value statement. So I. I park it there, put it back in your court.
- [07:28]
Jody
Jodi, have you read the Courage to Be Disliked?
- [07:33]
Chris
I have the book right over here. I've not read it yet because I love the title so much.
- [07:38]
Jody
So that is an exceptional book. I think it's in my top five books of all time. And in that book, they talk about. So it's a really cool setup because it's a conversation between two people. It's like the philosopher and it's the. The kind of the student. So the student represents the reader, not really understanding, and the philosopher explaining it. And it's a lot of it's around Adlerian psychology, specifically compared to Freudian psychology. And one of the main lessons in the book is this idea of horizontal relationships and vertical relationships. And it talks about how vertical relationships are ones similar to the pride thing, where certain things that you say could only ever go one way. So they really don't like the idea of praise because they think that praise is like, it puts people on a hierarchy. So it's like an employer might praise an employee, but would it ever happen the other way around? Like, probably not. And they don't like rebuking or they don't like the idea that you're telling someone off, because that would, again, only go one way. So they don't like vertical relationships. They like horizontal relationships and horizontal relationships. It all depends on gratitude and giving thanks and showing appreciation. And when I read that book, that's what I started doing in my agency. Just forgot all sense of like, oh, you did great work. I just forgot, didn't say any of that stuff anymore. It was all about, I'm really grateful to you for doing that, or I really appreciate that work. And then what I realized is people started saying it back to me, even though I was there, like, boss. And we just had this whole. It completely changed the culture of my whole company. And it was amazing. And it's all down to just that.
- [09:16]
Chris
Book and that concept, having the courage to be disliked. This idea of, like, kind of, I'm okay with being me. And if you have a different opinion of it, I Respect your opinion. It's just not going to have a lot of bearing on how I feel about myself. But I did want to get your response on parents because every time we talk about this, you almost always never point the gun to the parents.
- [09:39]
Jody
No, but what you said about, what you said about the whole they kind of treat you, they, they help you do stuff that wasn't okay for them, that definitely had. I'd not heard it put that way before, but I think that's a thing because they've definitely talked before around feeling like they were kind of kept on a tighter leash than they wanted to be. And therefore my, my leash was almost non existent. I was left on my own. I was thrown in the deep end. I was just kind of, it was free reign. I did whatever. And the whole kind of, oh, you've got great grades, well done. I don't think that was really a thing. I don't think they actually ultimately really minded if I got good grades or not because I just, I just did. So it was all around. They probably both in their own ways rebelled. But if I rebelled, it never felt like rebelling. I wasn't really rebelling against anything because it just ultimately wasn't a thing. Which I think is quite nice. Like I feel, I feel grateful for, for that right now.
- [10:45]
Chris
Well, it must be nice to have parents who saw maybe a more restrictive environment and give you that wide berth to run around and do what you need to do with probably a couple of guardrails, but not much else. And so there was nothing for you to push against. Cuz if you were to push against, you just fall over. There's nothing. Push. Pushing back. I, I may have shared this story with you before. My cousin, who's my age, he has a young child, he started to kind of play and he was just kind of looking at her two almost adult children at that point, you know. And he says, how'd you raise such great kids? I'm like, I have no idea. He goes, how do you get them to do the homework? I'm like, I've never asked about the homework. What about their grades? I don't even know what it is. There was one time when my wife showed me that Otto, my oldest son, had some troubles in his Latin class and he was in a school for gifted kids. And so it was like really tough to begin with. He wasn't doing well at all. I'm like, what do you want me to do about this? But other than her showing me that I've never checked and here's the best part. Both kids have excelled at school. Pick the classes and the schools that they want to go to. And it's all self, self motivated. They're, they're self determined. And I think that's great. I don't know about you, Jodi. I did not like school at all. I went to public school. I took classes that I didn't like do, and in subjects I, I didn't want to study from teachers who were uninspired. And I did the very minimum so that I can maintain an A average. And I just didn't ever want to apply myself. So we're given homework. I would either do it really late or really early. I'd cram the night before just so I can get to the next signpost, but I didn't care. But I gotta tell you, my parents did emphasize having straight A's as a very important thing in the house. So if I did it, I never did it for me. I did it for them. And we know this now. When you're doing something motivated by others, it's really not sustainable because the minute that pressure's taken off, you break free. And the example I have to share with you is a lot of my cousins are pressured to do something respectable like become an attorney, a doctor, or an accountant, or software engineer or something like that. And when they meet a roadblock, an obstacle, they just quit because it never came from them. They did something to have a parent check something off a box to say, my kids are all right, you didn't shame the family, if you will. And it's not long term sustainable. And the reason why I think they're kind of at mid level success is because there's not, there's not a deep fire burning within them to be great. And so they become, okay dentists or nurses or lawyers. They don't start their own law firm. They're not going after national cases. They're not on the COVID of a magazine having won a landmark case against some industry. It's not happening. And they live for the weekends. One sign that you're not doing what you're supposed to do in life is you live for weekends. Weekends are heaven and weekdays are hell. I'm, I'm, I'm being hyperbolic, but you become weekend warriors, right? And I always wonder, like, how do people have time for all these barbecues and whatever they're doing on the weekend? Right. Because they need a vacation from their job. And that's a sign.
- [14:04]
Jody
Yeah, I met someone in an elevator about two weeks ago. And I was like, how. Yeah, how are you? And she was like, yeah, good. Halfway there. And I was like, what do you mean? Like, I was like, what floor are we on? And she. She meant it was Wednesday and it was like halfway till Friday. I didn't. Who sees the world like that? That's not how the world works. That's a horrible way to exist. But I didn't really want to just have that conversation with her in the elevator because I know you just met her, so just ridiculous.
- [14:32]
Chris
But to answer that question, though, who sees the world that way? You and I were the anomaly. I don't know if you recognize that, because this is your world and this is my world. We think this is the way it must be. I remember reading Chris Voss's book, Never Split the Difference. One of his biggest lessons is that he learned you. You don't use your value system in a negotiation. Use their value system. Because we all value things very differently. So if we say that there are more entre. There are more employees than they're entrepreneurs, which is a pretty safe statement by pretty wide ratio. I don't know what it is, but I'm just going to throw it out there. Maybe it's 99 to 1. It might be much bigger or higher. I don't know. That means that 99%, according to this arbitrary number I put out, are just looking to survive the week. And eventually many of them just phone it in. They just go to the office. And sadly, some of my uncles are like this, where they go to the office and just waiting for the day to end. They figure out ways to make their lunches last longer, for them to come in a little later, to leave a little earlier. And when there's. There's words of layoffs where they give you money to be laid off, they raise their hand and said, please lay me off. What kind of life is that? But that is the life of how most people live, I think.
- [15:46]
Jody
Yeah, it sucks. I can't think of anything worse. I can't. I honestly can't. But then I can't really. How much do you think you can, like, relate to that? Because I almost kind of feel like I can have a lot of empathy for a lot of people very easily. But really getting myself into the headspace of someone who has. Has a horrible situation, knows it's horrible and doesn't change it. I really struggle with that. It's like, I feel like that's the limit of my empathy because it's always just like, we'll change it. You can do it. You can do anything. And then I find that I can go into solution mode and then try and hand people solutions, but they don't really want solutions. They want. They want to be able to give you excuses. And then I'm like, oh, it's not actually my problem. And then I have to distance.
- [16:30]
Chris
Well, Jordi, let me put a different way to hopefully help you build a little more empathy in the world. And we. Or maybe the neighborhoods in which you inhabit. How many people are fit? How many people are okay, and how many people are obese? And I'm going to say it again. There are probably less fit people in the world than there are fit people. And so I hope you don't look at those people and look at it with judging eyes. You. You sloth, you slovenly pig. You know you're going to die. You're setting a bad example. You're destroying your body, this gift, this miracle of life you're given. Or maybe you do. I don't know. But see, so here's the thing, is those people who are doing their nine to five, I don't think they think they're miserable. We're on the outside looking in and saying, that doesn't look fun to me. Now, I'm not saying that they're having a great time, but they just have different value system. And I think they look at us like we're miserable. And I'll present to you the opposite, too, because they. They'll look at us and say, oh, those people are about work. All they care about is work. They're just chasing the almighty dollar or the hustle and the grind. They're never at rest. It must be exhausting. I wonder when they're able to sleep or to be able to have a relaxing moment and to enjoy their life. Then one day when they wake up, they're gonna say, wow, what did I do all of this for? When all I've ever wanted was here in front of me and now it's too late.
- [17:57]
Jody
Sounds glorious.
- [18:00]
Chris
Which part is glorious?
- [18:02]
Jody
I don't know. The part. The part where doing hard things feels easy to you and looks difficult to other people to the point that they can't comprehend it. I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that.
- [18:15]
Chris
I'm okay with it, too. And they're okay with it, too, by the way, on their side.
- [18:18]
Jody
Yeah. Yeah.
- [18:19]
Chris
And that's what I think is beautiful.
- [18:20]
Jody
About life, what you said about not judging people for being whatever they are. I think that the. The reason I was Able to get to the 7 out of 10 not caring what people think that I thought I was at before we met, but we'll just call it a seven. Seven that's gone on a little roller coaster. I think it's because I think you stop caring about what other people think by not caring about what other people do. And I feel like that's been my main route to not caring what people think and to getting to a seven. Because if you don't, if you make it almost like your policy that you're going to let other people just do their thing and you're not going to pass comment and you're not going to waste any of your energy with just even thinking about it, especially not talking to them about it, then somehow judgment ends up not really being part of your life. And then you don't think so much about, oh, this person that might be judging me. Like, it just doesn't really occur to you. And then that feels like freedom because then you can just do your own thing. So it's like judging less, caring less. And then I think also, because if you. This might also be in the Courage to Be Dislike book. But I always. Whenever I hear judgment, I think judgment is separation. And I don't know where I got that from. But then if judgment is separation, if judging people takes you away from them, you get more of a sense of cosmic oneness from not doing it. That sounds showing up yourself. Yeah, yeah. All of it is.
- [19:49]
Chris
Yeah, yeah. I. I look at it very pragmatically. You have a lot of stuff you. You've got to do, right, Jody? You gotta make content. You're writing articles, writing another book. You're. You're working on powerlifting. You're working on your relationship with your husband. You're making travel plans, you're managing your team, you're developing new ideas. You're seeing past the curve, because we all have to see past the curve. Where does your body have energy to worry about and think about and manage and control and influence what other people think? I just don't have the energy, period. So I live in a world where I understand what you think of me. And the. Then I just don't care. So the. The other way that people do this is not to want to read or to listen to what other people think. And. But then you're kind of living in a box a little bit, kind of secluded from reality. I know famous actors have said this before. They can't read reviews of their work. It'll destroy them emotionally because they're just. They know they're too vulnerable, so you never know, and that's one way to survive. But I think the higher level, and if I may be so bold, is to understand what people think and say about you, acknowledge both the good and the bad, and not have it impact you at all. And just say, okay, those are data points. Like, more people prefer blue M&MS. Than red M&MS. By 76 to 34 or 24. I understand that, and that's good data. So then I can decide what I want to do with it.
- [21:22]
Jody
Do you read your YouTube comments?
- [21:24]
Chris
All of them. And I respond to almost all of them, yes. And a lot of them are not nice.
- [21:31]
Jody
Yeah. What do you. What is your approach with the not nice ones?
- [21:35]
Chris
Um, I have fun with them or I thank them for leaving the feedback. So I have several generic comments that I'll respond just to let them know I've read your thing. I won't like it. That's one thing. But I will sometimes respond to them. And if it's a really good one, I decide what do I want to do. And that there's like, three lanes in the road. I think lane number one is give some kind of innocuous response, like, oh, well, I'll consider that and thank you for your feedback. Or I'm glad to hear those are pretty much. They don't do anything. The other way is to respond with violence, which sometimes I do. Which I'm like, hi, let me ask you a question now, and I'll do something like that. And the third way is probably to really try to have a meeting of the minds. Look, can you expand further what you mean when you say this? I'm curious. So how do I choose which to do? Well, most of them are pretty generic. You're stupid, you're dumb. I hate that. I'm like, okay, then I don't know what to do with that. And if some are, like, really ranting, you're a scumbag, effing this and that, whatever, blah, blah, blah. I might get into it with them. But if some of them are giving you valuable feedback but don't know how to articulate it and say it in violent ways, those are the ones I'll work with. And so I kind of have to, like, as the comments are coming down the chute, you know, I have to, like, separate them into, like, three channels. Like, what do I want to do? And I just do it really fast. I find that it's some form of, like, mental gymnastics because it keeps my Mind sharp. Because when you're on a Q and A panel and someone blurts out like you, that's not the first time you want to hear that. No, because you won't be ready.
- [23:26]
Jody
But there is such a difference between criticism and critique. And critique is very welcomed. And not everyone knows how to communicate in text, non violently. So I understand that. But when it's just criticism, I just feel like happy people don't hate. I don't know anyone building their own thing, putting themselves out there, showing up online that also leave horrible comments on YouTube. I just don't know anyone who would do both of those things at the same time.
- [23:52]
Chris
Oh, I know a lot of those people because we live in a world where people are. What is it? Maybe they're ideologues. Is that the, is that I'm using the right word there, Jody? I don't know where they're like Democrats versus Republicans. It's all about ideology. And so there are some people who believe I, I should only create content and sell this kind of product or present it this way. And when they come across someone else who's doing it a different way, they get cray cray on you.
- [24:25]
Jody
People who are successful say that stuff.
- [24:28]
Chris
Well, success is relative. So they're successful by their definition in their world. And it's hard for me to say, well, because I've done bigger projects for more money or have more resources than you, then I'm more successful because then it's like a chess beating con competition. And I don't think that's cool either. I just take it at face value. If you're a professional, meaning this is how you make your primary means of a living, then you're successful, in my opinion and we can have a conversation.
- [24:58]
Jody
So if we're talking about stop caring, like how do you stop caring about what other people think? Yeah. And if in general we can do that to the point where someone is judging us now on something that we once said that we now maybe don't believe in, I still don't think it's necessarily about what caring what people think. It's more about clearing our name and saying, yeah, but hang on, if you're going to judge me for something, at least judge me on what I actually believe now and not something that you think I believe believe now because I wrote it six years ago. That's a different energy. That's like, it's still not caring, but it's wanting to be like, no, get your fact straight first or allow me.
- [25:35]
Chris
To show you what you're not seeing. And then you could still say whatever you want. I don't. I don't care. But I think you're. It's just. You're misinformed, that's all. It's like somebody saying you spent $2,000 to buy that building. I'm like, well, why don't I show you the receipt? And then you could decide, that's all. But I want to try to land this plane with you. So Jody gave herself a seven, then having a conversation with me, dropped her a four, until she got to episode four or five, and it got back up to seven. What is happening here in this roller coaster ride of your own ability not to care?
- [26:16]
Jody
I feel like it's a journey of becoming more me, which isn't about adding stuff. It's about taking things away and taking away masks, maybe.
- [26:26]
Chris
Yep.
- [26:27]
Jody
But then maybe I had more masks than I realized on. Until I meet and get to know you, someone who has, like, very few masks, if any. And then I'm like, ah, I have more than I think. So then it. The score drop.
- [26:42]
Chris
I see.
- [26:42]
Jody
But then I'm gradually shedding them a bit more and caring a little bit less. And therefore, it's coming back up to a score where I'm like, huh? This is actually quite fun because you can be way more. Way more playful when you actually don't care and when you genuinely don't care as well, because you can. I feel like I can let stuff go faster that I wouldn't be able to before.
- [27:05]
Chris
Yeah. It's very liberating to tell you. And you'll get there. The question is, at what age do you want to get there now?
- [27:14]
Jody
Right now, Right today? I think so.
- [27:18]
Chris
This second, Five minutes ago? Because the reason why I say that is because you hang around old people long enough or people who are in hospice, they've clearly stopped caring about people. Not. I'm sorry, let me rephrase. They clearly stopped caring about people's opinion of them. Yeah, that's the important part. So I. I have two questions to ask you, and maybe we can then turn this into some actionable things for anyone who's still listening to this or still watching, is what makes you think I really don't care? What are the signals that you think? I mean, aside from me saying I don't care. Because anybody can say they don't care, and then two minutes later, like, no, you care a lot. So what are those signals? And then I'll try to help you build a blueprint to close the gap between where you are and where you'd like to be. And I think that would make for a very satisfying conversation right off the.
- [28:13]
Jody
Top of my head. So first I've got. Because you wear whatever, which is just cool. Not everyone does that. And I like it a lot, but it's just a thing that it's like, yeah, I'm gonna wear whatever I want. Doesn't. Doesn't even matter, I think, because it feels like you say whatever is on your mind whenever it is on your mind. I feel like showing up online in the volume that you do has to come with an element of not thinking too much about, like, thinking about what you're posting in the sense of being professional, putting good stuff out there, but not thinking, not overthinking, oh, will this do well? Or what will go wrong? Or that kind of stuff. It's more like you're happy to see, like, will it fly? And then also, because when we set this series up, the. I've talked to you about it and I've talked to our producer about it, and you guys have such different ideas about how it's going to go. And every time I kind of, if I, if I lean it more towards what the producer said, you're like, no, we'll do it. We'll do our way. We'll do whatever we want. And you'll kind of have your. Like. I remember when I said she, like, should we set a timer so we don't talk for a long, long time? And you're like, no, they can't put us in a box. We're not doing that. So it's almost like even like a. A metaphorical timer. It's like a. No, that's not going to control me. Which feels like a big indication of not wanting something else to have any say and not caring about that. I think not necessarily related to you specifically, but the Truman show, the movie, the Truman show lives like, rent free in my head. I think I think about that movie about once a day. You know, the whole. How often do you think about the Roman Empire? I think about the Truman show every single day. And I kind of think of it as a tool, but it can go either way. Sometimes I think it's quite fun thinking of yourself as your own, like the Jodie show or the Christo show, and like that. That's got. They've both got really nice rings to them. But anyway, like the Truman show and thinking you're in the center of this and everyone else exists just so that you can do your Thing, and you're the movie star and everything else. I think there's quite a cool, like, princess energy there that I quite like. But then it also, thinking of that show makes me realize, like, it's completely false. Every single person believes they're in their own Truman Show, Jolie Show, Chris show. But if everyone is, then no one is at the same time. And I find that that's really freeing because no one's thinking about me. They're just thinking about themselves in their own Truman Show. So I feel like that is a tool that you can take either way, and both ways can be really helpful.
- [30:48]
Chris
I, I, I'm gonna misquote this, but I think Shakespeare wrote this a long time ago. All the world's a stage, and are we not just mere actors in it? For sure, something like that. The Internet will correct me, but let's break it down then. I, I think the, the most core concept is to say what you think. And this is the most liberating thing I've learned in my life and reinforced when I read it. I think it's something that Blair Enns wrote. Just say what you think. And I remember a conversation he and I had. He goes, if you would make me the ruler of the universe in Blair Topia, he says, rule number one is to say what you think. Because we can avoid so many problems if all of us felt more confident, safe to say what it is that we think. Like, I think this pie you made is delicious. It's just not for me. Or you're a little too close for my comfort in terms of my, my safe. What did we call that? My boundaries. Like, you're invading my personal space. And if we can say that, or your, your body odor is just sending me to a different planet right now. You mind if I step back? If we could just say what we think. Right in preferably non violently. But the first step was just to say what you think, and I think that's really important. Most of us don't say what we think is because we're so concerned about how the other person's gonna respond to it that we start editing. And there's a difference between being nice and being kind. Being kind is to say, you have some broccoli right here. Being nice is to pretend like it doesn't exist. So I'm that kind of guy who's like, if I know you well enough, I will tell you what's up. Like, you know, you have a crooked eyebrow or eyelash or something. I'm like, oh, my God. Thank you for saying that to me. I'd only say that if I cared about you. If I don't care about you, you do. You not gonna say anything.
- [32:36]
Jody
I feel like you get to the kind of stage of people where you just reach into their mouth and take the broccoli out for them so that you don't interrupt them while they're also talking.
- [32:45]
Chris
Right, right. And you can do that too. And I. I would do that. And there's a level of grossness and I think an intimacy that you have to have with someone to be able to do that. First of all, are your hands clean, and are you grossed out by it? Apparently not. Right. I think when you can get to that level, I think how you feel about this person is very different. Like, this one's got my back. I go to war with this person. Never want to worry. And I think that's very special. To be able to have people in your life that you feel that way towards. I think that's really cool. The other thing that you said was about the frequency of content, but I have to say, there are a lot of people put out a lot of content, and I don't think they're in that state yet. But I think underneath that is if you create content at a certain volume or frequency and you don't overthink it, that's the critical part where you can see there's, like, some rough edges, and not everything's been polished down and varnished. So we. We're kind of. I would use the word like you present yourself in an unvarnished way where there's both good and bad in it. Like, you're okay to celebrate your wins, the highest wins, and the lowest lows. Are you aware of the 5% rule or the 10% rule from EO?
- [34:05]
Jody
No. I think so.
- [34:06]
Chris
You know EO Entrepreneurs Organization.
- [34:09]
Jody
Yes.
- [34:11]
Chris
So I think they have over over 5,000 members worldwide, if I recall. And every person who's allowed to be allowed to be an EO has to be a millionaire. You have to make a million dollars. That's the minimum you have to make. On average, I think it's $5 million. What everybody makes some. A lot more than that. So EO says you share 90% of what's happening in your life with the world. The good and the bad, the highs and the lows. We don't want to hear that in EO. We want the 5% of, like, you're crushing it. You just made a billion dollars. We wouldn't hear that or I'm about to get divorced, my kids hate me, my business is in shambles, I'm being sued. So like, save that 90% for the world. Leave that 10%, the 5% high and the 5% low so we can talk about that. But I don't even think the world is sharing the 90%. Depending on the culture and where you are in life and in business, you're probably sharing more like 35%. And it's very sanitized, it's homogenized, and it's the stuff you see all over LinkedIn. That's my version of blogging LinkedIn for a second there. And that's why when somebody comes along, the mule, or a mule and posts something like, oh, you know, this is a dark moment in my life right now, or you guys, I just crushed you, can't even believe it. And just full throatedly just say, and unabashedly, here's what's happening in my life. I'm so freaking thrilled. Thank you for being part of my journey. We don't do that. When you talked about my producer talking to you about what the show should be about and how to structure it, you're like, well, we didn't listen to them. Well, there's two reasons why I don't listen to them. One, I don't want to sound like a douchebag, but they work for me. They work for us. Then, therefore. And the tail does not wag the dog. Number two, because they work for us. I'm going to trust my instincts. What I've done thus far has gotten me here. And I've said this to many people in many different ways. But here's the clearest way I can say this. The first part of my professional life was doing what the clients wanted. The second part of my professional life is doing exactly what I want. So I don't take a lot of risk to not have great financial fortune and a predictable income, only for you to tell me what to do. So my hot button is do not tell me what to do, period. Because I'm paying for all of this. So as much as I don't want to hear it, I don't hear from the, from the people who watch our channel. I don't want to hear from my team. I don't want to hear from my wife, my kids, my parents. I'm doing what I want to do right now. All of this stuff that happened before this I did for somebody else. I got some enjoyment from it. But this is my art. If you don't like it, don't buy it, don't watch it, don't share it, don't talk about it. I'm good with that. You know, if you don't want to watch a new movie that's being released, just don't watch it. That's how you vote. I get that. So there's one moment. Many years ago, when we're live streaming on YouTube, we used to live stream all the time. And I had a young team working with me, and I'm designing something live. Like, I hadn't seen the work. I'm just gonna respond to live. And it's not easy to do this live, right? And somebody said, hey, Chris, why don't you do it this way? I said, or you could start your own YouTube channel and do it your way. How about that? Because the last thing I wanna do is spend all this money and do all this stuff, then do it your way. Like, Jodi, you sold your company. I don't know how well off you are, but at some point we have to decide, like, what do I want to do with my life? And so right now, I'm a big champion for ultimate freedom. Freedom to do what I want, where I want, how I want, with whom I want for as long as I want, and I want that. And so people who try to get in the way, especially if they're not related to me, I don't have time for that. And then the wear what you want is just part of the culmination of all this stuff taking physical form. Now, there is a little part of me that is a troublemaker. I told people I'm above average student, but I'm a first class troublemaker. And I am a troublemaker. I wear sometimes things that I wear to f up people. And I'll just admit that right now, I'll walk into a very conservative area and wear things that they're like what you know. And I want to challenge norms. I. I don't want you to think of as an Asian man. I don't want you to think of Asian men all fitting within a very specific category of how we look, how we talk, how we behave. I'm not saying I'm representative of everyone. I'm just the representative of me and barely doing that. So I want to come in there and bring some edge or I don't. I want to break the stereotypes. And I told Jigo, this, this is. This is an important thing for me to say. Everywhere you go in the world, if you're a white man and sometimes a white woman and you're dropped into someplace in the world you're not working mostly against a negative stereotype about you. In fact, more often than not, you're given preference almost everywhere. But as a person of color, as an Asian man or a black man or some mix of that version, depending on where you go in the world, there's going to be some challenges. And I told Drigo, like, I don't have delusions of grandeur here, but I'd like to start to change that narrative about what I as an Asian man represent so that we can have different definitions. Like, I don't have to be the meek, limp wristed, feeble computer science nerd who is like a simp. I'm not saying that station stereotype like, I am okay with math, but I'll play around with that stereotype too. It's like, we're not all good at math. We're not all driving rice burner Honda Civics that are trick tricked out with nitrous oxide. It's like some of us are. You know, there's all these stereotypes. I want to break them all. So if I have to drive in a. A pink Miata, so be it. I'll do that because I want to F up people's perception just to get them to pause. I want to be a living pattern interruption. So there is a little mischievous part to me.
- [40:52]
Jody
I had this. Yeah, I had this kind of the other day. Yeah, that's really. It's just reminded me of I was in the gym in Cape Town and a guy who seemed quite friendly. I'd kind of just said hi to him. Like, it's my policy. I always say hi to everyone I meet. Pretty much it's just the personal policy. And I'd said hi to him. He seemed all right, but I hadn't talked to him in the session. And then he walked to the water fountain and he filled up his bottle. And then when he was walking back, he spilled quite a bit of it on the floor. And I looked at him and I went, are you gonna clean that up? And I was like, completely joking. He went and cleaned it up.
- [41:29]
Chris
He went to clean it up?
- [41:31]
Jody
Yeah, he went to clean it up and then he wiped the floor. And I was like, no, I didn't. I was just joking. He was like, yeah, but you know, I'm gonna clean it up anyway. And it's like that. It's that there's something around. You don't expect that little girl to tell you what to do. So then when they do, you Just. You just do it. And it's. Yeah, I. I quite like the rebellious. I quite like that troublemaker side of our.
- [41:53]
Chris
Yeah. And I was telling Drigo this that I think in polite society, we're used to people behaving a certain way. And so when we just do, like, it's a little bit, like one degree difference or eighth of an inch difference, and it really stands out. Now, if you said it in some condescending way, maybe he'll take it differently, but, like, we going to clean that up. And he's like, yeah, yeah, you're right. I better go clean this up right now, you know? Yes, right. But I. I was in a. In a store just a couple days ago, and security had walked through there. I'm like, what is security doing here? And I'm just being a little playful. So I said to the two women who are helping me who are behind the counter working there, it's like a patio furniture place. I said, is she in trouble? What does she do now? And the guy's like, yeah, he was, like, playing along with me.
- [42:40]
Jody
You.
- [42:41]
Chris
Yeah, she's in. I know they know each other. They're just checking in on things. Right. And as I finished the transaction, I was walking outdoor, and I said, hey, don't do anything I wouldn't do. Stay out of trouble now. And it's just like those little things that are kind of like a little playful and. And that's all it is. I'm not here to challenge your religion or your belief system. I'm just trying to get you to, like, open up your perception just like one half of a percent. That's all. If I can do that, I'm happy.
- [43:09]
Jody
I think that's a big move. A big move in how you stop caring about what other people think, is intentionally get them to think things, because then you're kind of controlling the message, but you also have the knowledge that you're just doing it for a reaction and actually you don't care. It's more like for the. For the greater good of them. Having a pattern interrupt or thinking differently in some way. That's like a level above. That's not even. That's not even the question anymore. That's like a level above it.
- [43:38]
Chris
It's a part of it. I think, given our. The arc of this conversation here, where we began, the little tangents that we went on. Where are you netting out on this? Is there any insight or takeaway or just things for further reflection that you want to share with us?
- [43:58]
Jody
Have you heard of Robbie Williams, yes. Because he. British singer didn't really make it in the States, I don't think, in a big way, but he was huge in the uk. But I watched Better man on a Plane the other day and he said something in it that I wrote down and it was. I thought, to become famous you have to be smart, but really you have to show off and be a bit cheeky. And I love the energy of that so much. And I feel like this is kind of what we're talking about.
- [44:32]
Chris
I think so.
- [44:32]
Jody
He doesn't care. He doesn't care what people think. He doesn't care if he's smart or if he's not smart. But he likes the idea that he's putting himself out there and kind of winking at everyone at the same time. And maybe that's the ultimate, not caring what people think.
- [44:46]
Chris
What I like to do is I like to look at each person. Okay, now I'm getting to more, More pop culture references here. And I think we talked about this before. Skyler from Heroes last time.
- [44:58]
Jody
Yeah, yeah.
- [45:00]
Chris
So I. I imagine myself, I. I fancy that I have this ability to look at people and kind of understand what makes them tick really fast, like the gears in their brain, what's happening. And there's a mischievous part of me that wants to put my finger on the one gear that might push you out of your zone. I might tweak it just a little bit.
- [45:19]
Jody
Yeah.
- [45:19]
Chris
And I give that to you.
- [45:22]
Jody
Yeah.
- [45:23]
Chris
Just to see how you'll respond. So the example here is most of my extended family, all my cousins and I have lots of them, my aunts and uncles all live in San Jose. I'm one of the few who left San Jose who came to LA to make my career in this industry, in the entertainment industry. And every time I go home, they say, oh, the LA guy is coming back. So now I'm the LA guy. And it is what you think it means, right? Flashy, superficial, living the fast life, the luxury life, whatever it is, but that's not me at all. But my cousins like to think that of me. So, like, oh, you know, I worked all day today to prepare this meal for us. I know it's not as fancy as the kind of food you're used to, but hopefully you eat it. And that's not even who I am. I. I eat at, like, Jack in the Box, whatever, but that's who they want to show up. So I quickly step into that role. I'm like, well, it's not as good as Nobu, but I'll give it a try. If it doesn't disgust me, I won't. I won't spit it out. And they know I'm not serious, but that's. Then they roll their eyes and they're like, I know, I know, right? Can your skin handle this, like, thread count on the napkins? I'm like, I won't use it. Don't worry. So I play with them and. And I tell my wife. My wife's looking at me like, who is this person? I'm like, I'm just playing a character right now. Because that's what keeps the conversation interesting.
- [46:50]
Jody
Yeah.
- [46:50]
Chris
And I'm going to give it to them. Yeah, right. And it. Depending on if it's like an uncle who's known me for a really long time or an auntie, and they look at me like this super respectful person. I'm gonna be that super respectful person because that's who they wanna see. And they'll turn to their kids and they're like, why can't you be like your cousin Chris? Like, they just don't care that much, Auntie. That's the problem. So I will play into that too. And they'll look at me like, with daggers in their eyes. Like, you come into town once a year and this is the trouble you create for us. I'm like, well, it's what you want. So I'm willing to, like, shift and change so that I can play with people. Sometimes I play into what they want and sometimes I push against it. But it's really fun for me because I see the gears turning and I'm like, let me change that a little bit, Jody. As we continue on our journey on our podcast of Jody and Chris don't know anything about Anything. It'd be interesting to map your progress and how you develop. And I'm excited for you. And as I've said before, I think when we actually meet in real life, whatever you're at, I'm going to help you get to the next. Next level, whatever that might be. So if you're at a 10, we'll go to 12, because you'll see, like, I'm going to be this weird, goofy guy who does whatever I want. And you're going to look around, you're like, not only do I not get in trouble for it, but I'm celebrated for it. I've been to Neil Dhingra's forward event many times now. I think it's the fourth or fifth time. And he hosts an event for real estate professionals, mortgage Brokers, loan officers, people like that. So not my people, people that we would classically put in the left brain category. It's taken me some time to feel at home with them, but now I feel really at home. So I'm walking out on stage with one of my most outrageous outfits, some kind of short skirt. When I say short, I mean high up, but it kind of looks like a short, but it's a skirt kind of thing. And wearing my whole outfit. And Trevor, who is kind of like part time emcee for this event, co producing it with Neil, he goes, chris, what are we doing with the fashion here? And I'm, I'm wearing this crazy elix9sm whatever belt and it's ginormous. It looks like a, a belt that you can take off an airplane or a race car. And I said, trev, when you go to introduce me, feel free to rip me however you want. He goes, really? I'm like, yeah, yeah, go ahead. And here's what he said. He goes on stage and with a smile. And Trevor is a very smooth, easy talking guy. He's kind of like the American Ryan Reynolds. And he says, you know, the next person that we're going to introduce today is a person that I like to describe as well. You know how when you're a kid, somebody took away your crowns and you wanted to keep coloring because it's time to grow up. Well, Chris is the kind of person, he wants to give you your crowns back. So let's have him come on stage. And Trevor and I worked out a little bit of this in advance. Not all of it because it kind of, we fumbled it a little bit on stage. Trevor's reputation is he's always like the near to do well, the Charlie Brown. Like he doesn't ever succeed. So I said, we're gonna go up, I'm gonna give you a hug and you're gonna make it really uncomfortable. Like I wanna let go and get going, but you, you just won't let go. So we do a little bit of that and we go up in the hug and embrace and it's weird. It's weirder than it's supposed to be. And he says something like, yeah, Chris is a fashion. Yeah, he's, he decided to wear a seat belt today. So we'll see what this, I'll buckle up, I guess or something. He says something, he leaves stage. I said, you know, what do you guys think of my outfit? And I guess I'm not taking fashion advice from a guy who wears like a tracksuit every day. And so we have this playful banter. And he told me that whatever I did that day has been by far his favorite talk that I've ever given. And you said you just leaned into yourself. You're ripping on me. You're ripping on Neil. You're making fun of audience. It's just kind of a crazy thing. And they just loved it. And I said, that's the meest me I've ever been, and I plan on being more of me. And that's the culmination. Everything we've been talking about today.
- [50:48]
Jody
Jodi, everyone is in their own Truman show, aren't they? And therefore, in the Jodie show, you're the character. You're the character that comes into the Jodie show to show me that it's cool to be, like, really be more you. But then in your Chris do show, you're just being you, not realizing that you're another character in everyone else's lives as well. Like, it's. It's kind of cool how you can have all these alternate realities going on at the same time.
- [51:16]
Chris
Okay, we'll wrap it up here, everybody. I hope you've enjoyed this conversation about finding your way to, hopefully, a place where you stop caring about the opinions of other people. As the expression goes, everyone has an opinion and an a hole, and I don't want to see either one. So there we go. So here's to that. And wherever you're at in your life, if you're a 3, a 7, a 12 out of 10, let's just keep pushing that up, because I think you're going to be happier, healthier, and more successful in your life if you stop giving a few less Fs about what people think.
- [51:50]
Jody
SA.