← The Futur with Chris Do
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- [00:00]
A
My new friend Goli, who we perfectly color matched, color blocked for this, of course, because this is what branding people do, introverts do. We just. We let our person speak for us because sometimes we can't find the words. But we want to talk a little bit about this idea of introversion and personal branding. And I know you got something coming out, so maybe there's a perfect way for us to do this. For everybody who does not know who you are already, please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit of your backstory.
- [00:35]
B
So, hi, everyone, I'm Goldie Chan. And hilariously, as Chris knows, because we sat next to each other at dinner once, I am also nicknamed the Oprah of LinkedIn. So at one point, I made over 800 daily consecutive videos on the platform. And it's a pretty hilarious nickname. But I didn't do it. The press did. Specifically, Huffington Post, in terms of what I do. So I'm a writer. I run my own agency, Warm Robots, where we do social strategy and branding. And I'm now an author. So I'm the author of Personal Branding for Introverts, which is what we're talking about here. And I'm so excited to be talking with Chris about it because he has a quote in the book. So if you get this book, you can highlight his quote with that traditional. I don't even have a highlighter. Yes. So brand appropriate. I have a green highlighter right here. So get that book highlight Chris's amazing quote on loud introverts, which I hope at some point we will talk about that too.
- [01:35]
A
Yes. And in case you are not watching this and you're just listening to this on the pod, let me describe to you what Goldie looks right now. Look at this. We have similar things. Like, there's a lot of similarity. I'm wearing a green cap. Her hair is green. I believe your mic is green.
- [01:50]
B
It literally looks like we color coordinated this.
- [01:53]
A
That's why we must do some part of this now. We'll see what happens. Okay. And she's got a bookshelf, although it's still work in progress. There's some books or some other little chachis back there. But clearly creative person. I see you have a Webby Award. Springs a Webby Award, right?
- [02:07]
B
Yeah, That's a Webby Award. Totally not my Webby Award. That's my partner.
- [02:13]
A
You bought out a garage sale? What's going on?
- [02:14]
B
Wait, this is perfect. Because Chris, you can see both. So I share an office with my partner and my partner side. I'm going to point. And for those of you who cannot see this, because you're listening, I will just describe it. His is already done. His has all of his favorite books. It has his chastities perfectly aligned. It has his awards, one of which is a Webby, another shorty Ward. Mine is a work in progress. I have toys. I have, you know, a couple of my awards. Some awards. I have a Gacha machine over there.
- [02:46]
A
A gotcha machine.
- [02:47]
B
Yeah. A figure of myself right there. We have a bender. We have some Batmans. So what's a Gacha machine? It's one of those Japanese machines where you turn the knob and then out comes a little ball, and inside the ball is a toy.
- [03:02]
A
It's a coin op.
- [03:03]
B
It's a coin op.
- [03:04]
A
Nice. Those are big in Japan.
- [03:06]
B
I know. Yeah. So, yeah. So this is what I have instead of my awards is I have a Gasha machine.
- [03:12]
A
Okay, let's start here. Personal branding for introverts. Let's break those things apart. What is personal branding to you? Because there's so many potentially different ways of interpreting that.
- [03:22]
B
Right. I always like to think of personal branding in the context of reputation, which is the question I get a lot, which is how is personal branding different than reputation? And to me, reputation is what other people say when you're not in the room. And personal branding is what the story that you tell when you are in the room. So that is what I think personal branding is. That's my breakdown of it, at least.
- [03:47]
A
Well, I'm an introvert. I don't say nothing about me. So am I not personal branding as the way you've defined it?
- [03:53]
B
I think that personal branding, the room is very different than the room used to be. I think about one of the most classic books on introverts is Quiet by Susan Cain. And it's such a good book, and I cannot say enough good things about it. But I will say that it was definitely written in a time pre our Internet universe. So now you can have an entire personal brand that's built and exists and lives truly 99.99% online. And I think that's such a helpful part of our current world for introverts is that you can build a personal brand where you're in the virtual room. And I know that sounds terrible and fake, but it's true. Because right now we're in literally a virtual room too.
- [04:37]
A
Well, I don't think it sounds terrible. I think you've redefined the room as an introvert would redefine the room. And when we say room it's in air quotes because it's not the physical space defined by walls, but it's the space that anybody shares online. And so. Well, then I'm back in the game. I'm back in the game right now, right?
- [04:55]
B
You're back in the game, Chris. Well, I think that everyone, at least as far as I know, I think I made this joke when we first met that, oh, yeah, they call me the Oprah of LinkedIn, but someday I hope to be the Christ Doe of LinkedIn like you were. So I feel almost bad that we sat next to each other and you're so well known. You're such a beacon in the industry and things like that. So it's so funny we didn't run into each other until so recently, in some ways.
- [05:23]
A
Well, at the dinner, I was glad to be sitting next to you. I think it was. Was that a P. F Chang's? No. What was it at, if not.
- [05:30]
B
It was very similar to.
- [05:32]
A
It was an Asian specific food place.
- [05:34]
B
It was the Asian specific food. And it was in Anaheim. I think it was Vidcon. Yeah.
- [05:39]
A
Yeah, it was Vidcon. It was last year. Because this year's came by and I don't remember seeing you.
- [05:44]
B
Yeah, I don't remember seeing you either.
- [05:46]
A
So were you at that meetup at Din Tai Fung?
- [05:49]
B
I wasn't at the meetup at Din Tai Fung. Were you there the whole time? Of course you were, Chris. You're so good about that.
- [05:54]
A
I was there. You know why? Because I spoke for the first time at Vidcon this year.
- [05:59]
B
Have you never spoken at Vidcon?
- [06:02]
A
Don't say it like that.
- [06:03]
B
No, I say it like that because I'm so surprised, because you speak at everything. I feel like I've always seen you speak at a million things. I almost think, like your life is 98% speaking on the road and then 2% maybe making this podcast. Is that it or no? I would say 1% making this podcast and then 1% doing the. The group, the mastermind, or whatnot, and doing. Doing other help with other folks. But I definitely see you traveling all the time. So when you tell me that you have not spoken at Vidcon, it surprises me because I assume that you have done 50 million rounds of speaking at Vidcon.
- [06:39]
A
Let's do introvert notes.
- [06:40]
B
Yeah, let's do introvert notes.
- [06:41]
A
We're going to turn this into Confessions of Two Introverts. Okay, we'll do that.
- [06:44]
B
Yeah, let's do it.
- [06:45]
A
All right. We'll just get real Real. Now, usually I don't have this kind of opportunity because people that I talk to usually aren't introverts, or they are, but they don't admit it, they don't embrace it. So here we both are, fully embraced in our introversion and we, we are totally, completely satisfied and happy with what we're doing here. So here's my strategy. I want to know your strategy. I don't know who to talk to, I don't know who to ask. I don't try that hard. But I'm like, I should speak here. But. So somebody buys me a ticket, I go to the first vidcon, somebody buys me a ticket the second year, and I'm like, I see people. I'm like, hey, can you put a word in for me? I didn't know who to talk to. Like, hey, we'll do that. But of course, course, people are busy for whatever reason. This being my third VidCon, somebody said, would you like to speak? I'm like, yes. Finally, it somehow bubbled up to the top. And then I do my talk there. So it's the first time ever. And that means I have a place to stay. So it's not just driving back and forth from Pasadena or wherever I'm at at the time. And so you know how people are very intentional. Like they make a list of where they'd like to speak and they make it a point to get to know the media team. They work their way up through the event organizer, and then eventually they speak. And they'll speak on maybe the side stage, on the main stage, and eventually they speak on the main stage. And that's how normal, well intentioned, good people do it. I'm just so weird. I'm like, somebody tells somebody I want to be here and if it works, it works. If it doesn't, I just don't work that hard at it.
- [08:08]
B
Chris, can I make an analogy?
- [08:09]
A
I hope you will. I demand that you do.
- [08:13]
B
Yeah, you're a flying squirrel. You go from the top of the bookshelf and you just are. You're just hanging out at the top of the bookshelf, right? And then you see the opportunity to speak and you're just like, we're just going to do it. And so you just take that leap. You're the flying squirrel that just goes, ah. And then you. Right. And I think that's what you just described you, you took that leap of faith and you're just like, okay, I'm just going to keep going. And then eventually someone will Notice me falling from the sky and catch me. Right. Much like if you see a pet flying squirrel in all those amazing videos. Right.
- [08:46]
A
That I understand now. Yes. It makes you feel like you should.
- [08:50]
B
Adopt one and they just, like, they take that jump and then you see the owners catch them kind of like halfway through, and they take that leap of faith. So you're a flying squirrel.
- [09:00]
A
Okay. I never thought of it like that. I almost look at it like, am I being too lazy, too arrogant or too entitled? Because I'm like, I think I'm past that stage where I'm chasing these things now, where I'm like, somebody will ask if it's right. If not, it was meant to be or not to be. What is your strategy for this?
- [09:18]
B
This would be a great time if I was like, oh, Chris. Well, what I do is I reach out to the whole media team and then I try to get on the side stage. And. No, I think that this is maybe being a little bit all over the place and whatever that is. A little brain spiciness also as well in there. But I think that for me, I wish I was more methodical, you know, I wish I was like. And then I got to know the entire team, and then I, you know, and then I really put in that request, and I had the exact perfect three talks, and I said, please, any of these three talks. And then I just don't. I don't do that either. I think what I do is I just have conversations with folks. I think maybe this is how you and I are similar. Maybe not. But I just have conversations with folks. And sometimes I express to people like, hey, I'd love to speak at south by Southwest, which, you know, as, you know, south by Southwest is its own weird beast. And sometimes that just gets you somebody who's like, great, you want to speak. Great. We'll put you on a panel. Right? Or sometimes it gets you, you know, not this year, but actually, we're already planning. We're in 2025 right now. We're already planning 2026. Right. So it gets you that other maybe like a year from now, something or other. I think some of it is just, like, about asking. But also, okay, we're going to get real. We're going to get so real. I think some of it is being an introvert. It's really hard sometimes to do that. Hard ask, too. But also, I think there's a level of me, honestly, I'm like an introvert with anxiety. And so a lot of times it's hard for Me to stay in that place for extended period of time. I don't know if you remember this, but we were at an event that one of our friends co hosted during south by Southwest. I saw you there. I forced you to take one of my photos, one of my friend photos.
- [11:10]
A
At Jerry's house, right?
- [11:11]
B
Yeah, Jerry house. And then I remember Jerry said at the top of it, Jerry explicitly said. And this was 100% aimed at me because he looked me in the eye while he said it to the entire room of, I think probably 100 people were there at this event. He's like, you know, do your best. Try to stay through the whole time. Try to stay through the event the whole time. You know, talk to a lot of people. And just halfway through, I was like, I'm done. Honestly, I just. I like my introvert bar meter. I'm done. Like, I just. I don't have it in me. And not because people weren't awesome at that. Like, I made so. Met so many cool people. But just like, my anxiety, my social anxiety sometimes just hits a maximum point, and it's just better and healthier for me just to peace out. So, like, I definitely dodged out halfway through that event. And Jerry made a point. He was like, goldie, don't. You know, don't go early. And I was like, ha, ha ha. Definitely 100% left early and got barbecue.
- [12:08]
A
I didn't get the invite. You saw me and you saw me drowning, and you're like, f you. I'm out.
- [12:13]
B
No, Chris, I think the thing is you have that cool person look. See, the thing is, as I'm sure everybody listens to this, knows that Chris looks so freaking cool all the time. And so you were sitting, like, at the end of the table. You were just like. You know, I think people were just assuming that you were just contemplating the universe at large.
- [12:34]
A
I have that contemplating universe look versus.
- [12:37]
B
I put on my bag and I'm like, how can I sneak out as quickly and as undetectably as humanly possible so I can go eat a second dinner? Because we actually had a dinner there, but I wanted a second dinner, so I had a second.
- [12:52]
A
I know what you mean, though. Say less. I got you.
- [12:55]
B
You know what I mean? Sometimes the second dinner, anyways, that was my very long winded way of saying, how do I find these opportunities? For me, it starts with just conversations with people and honestly talking to them, like people and not being like, I see that you run this. It would be great if you could blah, blah, blah.
- [13:14]
A
You don't want to network with people.
- [13:16]
B
Yeah. I don't know that I'm the best, honestly, at doing that kind of networking at all. But I am really good at being, like, a little weirdo that sometimes pops into things, forces some of my friends to take Polaroid pictures, and then leaves early to get second dinner.
- [13:31]
A
When you say you have anxiety, tell me the inner dialogue. What's happening to me?
- [13:37]
B
It's less of the inner dialogue, and it's that feeling of if anyone who's listening to this has ever had a panic attack, like, I will just get that raised heartbeat. I'll get that anxiousness just in my physical person. And then if I do get thoughts around it, it's like, oh, we gotta go. It's like that urgent. Like, oh, I don't know that I want to be here. Oh, we gotta go right now. And that's how it manifests for me.
- [14:03]
A
Okay, so there's like, a physical thing that's happening, and it's like you're looking for the escape hatch. What triggers it?
- [14:09]
B
To me, I think it's when I overextend myself. So I just have a meter. And I don't always even know what the meter looks like, but internally, I have a meter where I will do three conversations. And then I'm like, oh, at the fourth conversation, I was like, this was one conversation too much. And even if the person I'm talking to is the nicest human being ever, I just feel inside of me that everything constricts a little bit. And then I think, oh, gosh, like, this is too much for me to even have this simple conversation. And then all of those. For me, intrusive thoughts start to flood in a little bit. And then I think, yes, where is the escape hatch?
- [14:50]
A
Knowing this about yourself, what compelled you to go then? Because it sounds horrible.
- [14:56]
B
I think. Think that the more you do things like that, like get out of your shell and do things that challenge you, the time that I can do is a little bit longer, if that makes sense. So if I'm really rusty, if I just don't attend any events, which sounds like heaven, it would probably be my December. Then that one person becomes that internal meter. So having the one conversation becomes almost too much. If I attend a lot of these events, it maybe becomes the fifth or sixth person. Right. So for me, it's almost just like. Almost like stretching out a rubber band, I guess that, like, as you stretch it out progressively, it gets wider and wider. And that's my. For me, at least, that's me with social anxiety, and that's me, with being an introvert in the room is I have to practice. And I'm not trying to become an extrovert, but I have to practice being myself.
- [15:52]
A
So it's exposure therapy. You get a little stronger every time, but you're also a rubber band that has memory. So if you don't do it for a while, it shrinks back to its original, tighter size. Yeah.
- [16:03]
B
Yes, exactly.
- [16:04]
A
Well, this is interesting, because I think of myself, my old self, more like you. I dreaded going to anything, any kind of socializing thing. I wouldn't even show up. Like, you're already more brave than me. Because it took forever for me to go. It wasn't until my business coach told me, go out there. Go meet some people. I'm like, okay, I'll try. And then it wasn't until the last few years where I start to feel like I've developed social skills, where it doesn't drain me as much anymore, and I don't need a day and a half to recover, where I will actually stay there till end of the night. And I'm not thinking about the escape. It's the first part of the social interaction that gives me the most nerves, you know, That's. That's what really messes me up. Like, what am I doing here? Who's here? I don't know anybody. This is stupid. You know, oh, I don't like this food. Or what am I. Waste of time. I should be watching Game of Thrones or something. You know, for the eighth time.
- [16:53]
B
Yeah, that internal monologue.
- [16:55]
A
That's the internal monologue, yeah, like, oh, I don't know anybody. This is. Where's Jerry? I need to say hi to him and cling onto him like a blanket. You know, just hold tight. And then I'm like, why are you being so weird, bro? Jerry has other people to talk to. Even the part where Jerry's like, hey, everybody, introduce yourselves. I'm like, oh, no.
- [17:13]
B
Okay. I will say this, Chris. I don't know if you noticed this, but that part when Jerry says, everyone, introduce yourself. This is what happened. I. I showed up a little late, which was on. Completely on accident. I actually wasn't trying to come late, but I showed up late from another event. And I stepped in right as Jerry came to me, stepping into the room and was like, oh, we're introducing ourselves, Goldie. And I just was like, oh, come on now. And he landed right on me right as I stepped into the venue, the place that we were at. And I Was just like, oh, like, couldn't I have gotten a little warm up or heard some other folks? And I was like, okay, here we go. I mean, that's so brave, Chris. So maybe not brave, but just how did you transition from me, then your younger self to you, Chris? Very cool. Sitting at the end of the table, thinking about the way the universe was born and all.
- [18:09]
A
Let me tell you how I did that.
- [18:10]
B
Yeah, tell me, is it a course I can buy for 499, $99.97.
- [18:16]
A
So I think I'm actually a very social person. But through a series of unfortunate things happening, I lost that idea or that skill. Because when I'm around familiar people, I'm totally cool. Especially if I feel like they're my people. Non judging, curious, open mind, artistic, not loud mouths, not braggadocious, not insecure, but just my people. I could spend all day weeks with them, no problem. And the size of the number of people doesn't matter. It's just always feeling like they're not my people. And growing up, I didn't feel like I belonged anywhere. Not Asian enough or not Vietnamese enough to be around my Vietnamese people or not white enough clearly, to be around my Caucasian friends. And so it's like a person, you know how like two boats going like this, they're pulling apart and you have one foot in one and one foot in the other. Like, where am I? I can't do the splits. So it's not until later on where I'm like, you know what, Chris?
- [19:16]
B
That's stage three of your life. We just figured that out. Stage three is you doing splits, okay?
- [19:22]
A
It's gonna be bad. Things are gonna break, okay? So I feel like I like to make jokes, I like to make people laugh. And I know enough about enough things where if there's something remotely interesting, I can pick up that thread and we can play ball. My friend Jewel, who traveled with me to Ireland, there was another Chris. Chris, Sergio. And we're just chatting and we're just. We had this amazing rapport and was just two heterosexual guys comfortable in their own skin, creative, and just complimenting each other in weird, awkward ways. And it was just like, I could do that all night, you know? No, you're good looking, you're too good. You know, we would just go back and forth and it was just like, really a fun thing. So for me right now, the reason why I do content is so that the room warms up before I get there. Inside, I'm like, oh, get out of. Get out of here. But outside, I'm like, maybe somebody will recognize me and just want to talk to me because I don't know how to talk to them. That's really what it is. And then once I'm in it, I'm good.
- [20:23]
B
I think sometimes I really like what you said about being around people that just make you feel comfortable, that are your people. I know that when I'm in a room full of folks that I know more of them and I feel comfortable. And they are like creative weirdos, for example, or just weirdos in general. And they have their own quirks. I definitely feel more comfortable and at ease. And I don't get that. Okay, this is the fourth person I've talked to. We gotta escape. I think. I think there's always this interesting change when you're around people that just make you feel like, I don't need to be performative. And I think that it's that performative aspect that is so, at least for me, so exhausting. Because I'll meet people, as I'm sure, Chris. In fact, I'm sure it's even deeper for you than this. But for me, I'll meet people who are like, I've been following your videos since 2017, and I know exactly who you are. I know that you went through this, you went through that. You went. And they, like, know my whole life story, and they have this expectation of who I'm supposed to be and who I show up as. And as, you know, in person, I'm exactly this. Like, I'm the same as I am right now. It's the same as I am in videos, is the same as I am in front of people. And people are often surprised by that. And I think that there's an expectation of performance. And that actually gives me a little bit of personal anxiety too. Is the performance aspect of, oh, am I, like, performing, like, what they want? And not to say that I will perform then, but just like, there's that little. For me, there's always like, that tiny little thought that hits in my brain.
- [22:02]
A
Yeah. Okay, a little quick side question here, and we'll continue on this line of thought. But you said second meal. That almost feels like a strategy. Like you've done this before. Okay, just so everybody knows, Jerry had a chef cater food for us. There's tons of food, all kinds of food. It's more like buffet style. So you stood in the kitchen, you grabbed a plate, and you grabbed some things. I know what I'm thinking, but what's your strategy here? Why second meal? It almost felt like you knew you were gonna have another meal after this meal.
- [22:33]
B
So, first of all, I never want to be that person that takes, like, 30 billion things and then there's nothing left for somebody else. That's just a graciousness thing. That's like growing up Asian, right?
- [22:45]
A
You.
- [22:45]
B
You want to fill your plate, but also you want to make sure everybody else's plate is filled. So I just want to say that. Child of immigrants. Child of immigrants. So that's one thing. And then I think that I wasn't planning on having second meal. I was planning that I would stay through the entire thing, and I was going to try to do that. And quite honestly, my meter just filled up, and I was just like, I, you know, I gotta go. I don't. I'm no longer enjoying this situation. So to me, you know what a second meal is. I just like food. So second meal isn't always a strategy, but for that, like, 25 to 50% of the time that I guess it is a strategy. A second meal is like, oh, I'm gonna have a meal with, like, one or two people. It's going to be not performative at all. We're just gonna sit and have good food. It's gonna be so chill. We're not talking about, like, what are you developing next in your career? Or whatever. It's like, whatever you talk about when you are performing, honestly, a little bit, right? It's gonna be like, oh, it's so humid here. Like, I can't believe we're doing this. Or it's like, oh, these days are so long. I think having those moments, those breaks are so helpful. And I know for myself, as an introvert, that second meal, like, was it like. I just think of Lord of the Rings, that second meal, second breakfast or whatever. It's so helpful to have that time just as a breather where you're exactly not performative.
- [24:21]
A
I'm with you on this. I do not look fondly upon the people who are like, you know, there are other people here that might want to eat some of that. I just fill up their plate. Like, you know, are you starving?
- [24:32]
B
Right? Because it was a buffet. I want to clarify that. It was a buffet, but it was still a limited amount of food, right?
- [24:39]
A
And we don't know how much more food plates or platters there are. So you just take a few little things here and there. Well, that's the other thing that I wanted to bring up. I don't want to be at a networking function stuffing my mouth with stuff because I don't want to get stuff stuck in my teeth. I don't want to be speaking whatever breath of whatever I just ate. I prefer to eat nothing. But then I'm like, shoot, I'm going to be starving later. But my rule is if I'm hungry, then I should have eaten more. If not, I don't eat anymore. That's on me. At this point, I'm not going to have third breakfast.
- [25:13]
B
You're an adult.
- [25:13]
A
I'm an adult. I'm going to either eat or I'm not. I'm going to go to bed hungry or not. It's a decision I've made already. Question for you, do loud introverts exist?
- [25:24]
B
Chris, you had a quote in my book about this, so I'm going to say yes. Yeah. So yes, I think loud introverts are very real. My pet peeve, my hot take about introverts, if there even is a hot take about introverts, my hottest take is that. And once again, shout out to Quiet by Susan Cain. Beautiful book, thoughtful book, well researched. Blah, blah, blah. And all these other books that say quiet in them. Introverts are not all quiet. And introverts get very, to me, loud introverts. Loud introverts are the folks that get really excited, really passionate. They really care about what they're talking about. They feel at ease with the person that they're talking to. And that's when introverts get loud. And I think saying that all introverts are quiet forever does a disservice to introverts in general.
- [26:19]
A
Are there some popular examples of loud introverts that you can point to that?
- [26:24]
B
Yeah. So I think one example of a loud introvert might surprise you is Taylor Swift is, I would say, definitely an introvert. And I think at the right moments and the right times, she is quite loud. Right. And I think that if, you know what, if I was to guess and see, these are all guesses at this point. But I think that honestly, Rihanna might also be an introvert. And I think that once again, she's a loud introvert where she is. And these are both performers, so maybe that's not the best example. But they're both very loud people in the right context of being performers or being around things that they really, really care about. So I think the typical thing of thinking introverts are never loud is untrue.
- [27:14]
A
Okay? So we want to be able to set the record straight and debunk this myth for people. Because when I tell people I'm an introvert. They're like, no, that can't be. You're not that way.
- [27:24]
B
No, Chris, I could tell. I could tell the first time we met. And because I. Once again, I didn't know the lore. I think. I think everybody needs to understand. I didn't know the Chris lore. That was my bad. It's completely my fault, because I guess I should have been like, Chris, I've watched 360 of your videos. I have taken your entire. I've taken.
- [27:42]
A
Actually, you. You didn't know me at all. We're just two people sitting on the table.
- [27:45]
B
Yeah, we're two people sitting at a table. And I was like, oh, Chris has amazing glasses. You throw it out there for folks that don't see Chris's fit right now, you know, let's throw out the young person word. But Chris has amazing personal style. So I sat next to Chris, and I was like, wow, look at this person. So I just. I shouldn't have assumed this. Shouldn't have assumed this, Chris. But I. I looked at you and I assumed, oh, this person's a designer. So I said, like, this person's a creative. This person's a designer. And beyond that assumption, just because you were so well dressed, I was like, okay, well, he must be important, because Jerry might. That was the assumption that I had. And so I'm sorry, Chris, because you just talked about how you made those videos. You threw them out there so I would see them. So I would sit next to you and be like. I'd be like, oh, it's crystal. It's crystal. Oh, my gosh.
- [28:37]
A
That's the exact impact I want to make.
- [28:39]
B
Is that the impact? Okay, good. Next time I see you, I will be like. I will just kneel down next to you. Like, hi, Krista.
- [28:48]
A
Okay, so here's the thing. Jerry invites me. I rock up, and seats are filled. I'm like, oh, shoot. One of my fears. Usually, I want to come early. This introvert survival guide come early. Just grab whatever seat you want when there's only a few seats left. Depending on who the host is and how mindful they are of you and your special needs quote, unquote. You could be sitting in a weird corner. Like, man, I feel weird right now, right? But Jerry saved a seat right across from him. So I'm like, okay, Jerry, thanks for looking out for me.
- [29:15]
B
That's also how I know you're important, because Jerry put you really close. Close to him.
- [29:17]
A
Yes. Shout out to Jerry.
- [29:19]
B
Shout out to Jerry.
- [29:20]
A
And so I just sit there and we're just chatting, just two random people. Now. I'm glad that you think I'm a creative person or designer because of the way I dress. And I want people to know that about me.
- [29:30]
B
Yeah, you're clearly an, you know, not to throw the a word around here, but you're clearly an artist. I genuinely was like, oh, this person's a creative. This person's a designer. This person's probably an artist. Because the way you were expressing yourself just through the way you dressed was just very unique. And I think so many people also, they go to a conference, right? And they wear their like, conference outfit. And it's like usually a very specific and downplayed outfit. And you weren't doing that.
- [30:02]
A
So I don't do that. So this works perfectly for me. Now, what people can't see is again, and you need to see this on video if you're listening to this only is Goldie has shocking green hair, Deep emerald, I think I would call it emerald hair. And it's like rich saturation. And so you're probably sitting there thinking to yourself, why do these two weirdos who don't want to talk to people who have social anxiety dress or look the way they do? Because it seems like it wants to draw attention to you versus away from you. So, young lady, explain yourself.
- [30:37]
B
I know this is a leading question, so I'm going to answer this leading question, which is, I just like you. So I personally, I just love having colored hair. So no matter what, I just love to express myself that way. So regardless of if I was in a bubble, if I could still have colored hair and it was just me, I would do it. But as you know, Chris, one of the benefits of dressing in a particularly eye catching way or having eye catching hair color is that people will sometimes come to you and initiate those conversations. So once again, you don't have to be the person that initiates that conversation. So they'll go up to you and they'll be like, Chris, that's an amazing hat. Chris, I love your glasses, right, Chris, like, cool necklace. And for me, people walk up to the back of my head, which is kind of funny if you think about it. And they're like, goldie, Goldie Chan. It's because they see my hair color and they're like, it's probably Goldie. And it's got to be right. So it's helpful to have that warm. It's exactly what you talked about. It's helpful sometimes to have that warm introduction to other folks. So then you Immediately have something to talk about with them.
- [31:49]
A
So we've established at least two things right now. Number one, content. You're making content. People know you. So that's the warm intro. And you have defined characteristics or brand assets to use those terms that without even seeing all of you, just a little hint of you, they're like, oh, I think I know who that might be. And you could turn around and be a totally different person. But they're like, well, I think that's got to be Goldie. Put two and two together. So those are two things. Ready? So this is like introvert survival guide here. Because it's horrible for me to start a conversation with someone. I don't know how to do it, Especially if they're like really normal. I don't know where to go with this. Now. If they had punk rock hair.
- [32:27]
B
Oh gosh. Normal people. What do you, what do you do with normal people? I feel like sometimes I'm in these conversations with people and I'm like, do you like shoes? I don't know. Like, I don't know.
- [32:38]
A
Right, right. That requires more effort and skill than I have. I know people can do that. They can comment on any random thing and just start a conversation. Literally. This has happened to me before. I'm sitting there, small group of people, semicircular, and there's a little opening here and there and I see another person. And the introvert in me recognizes like somebody is shy, is outside the group. I'm like, hey, you want to join us? I'll invite them in. But in most circles they care less. They give a flying F if you're outside, inside. So I try to widen the circle to bring people in. So it's one of those things where I've seen people do this too, where they enter into the group. It's like, what are we talking about, guys? I'm like, that's gutsy.
- [33:16]
B
That's gutsy.
- [33:18]
A
Have you ever done something like that?
- [33:20]
B
Every once in a while when I'm feeling really hyped up on a lot of coffee, I will, I will do that. I'll do the brave thing. Because it feels like a brave thing to do. It feels like a big thing to do. Or if I'm. I don't know if this is true of you as well, Chris, but sometimes I'm just already in that mode. Like I've already talked with two other groups. I'm already feel like a well oiled machine. And then I can jump in and be like, I'm warmed up. And then I'll be like, hey, guys, what's going on? And I can jump in. And that's when people think that I'm an extrovert, as I'm sure other folks. As you said before, people mistake you for an extrovert. People have also mistaken me for an extrovert in those moments too, because they're like, oh, and I'm sure you are also really good at reading the room, quite frankly. And that usually means that you sometimes are then the organizer, even if you're not actually the organizer, because you're pulling people together, you're noticing when somebody's left out, you're asking opinions, you're doing very leader y kind of things.
- [34:23]
A
Yes, that would be the tip three or four, which is give yourself something to do. Social functions are super awkward and weird. We don't know what to do. So you can just take on the role of a host or a hostess and just say, hey, do you know this person? Would you like to meet them? And then now you have something to do. I'm good when I have a job. The problem is I don't have a job. Most times when I'm walking to these rooms, I don't know what to do. Now you got excited over that. What do you want to say?
- [34:49]
B
I think that when I have a role or what you said a job, then I know what I'm supposed to do, which is why business conferences and business situations, speaking on stage, all those things, generally speaking, don't bother me at all. I don't get the anxiety I normally get. But if you put me in a party in LA of 10 very hot, very cool people that I don't know at all, and then I'm expected to make small talk with these people and they don't know me at all. And I'm supposed to explain that writing for Archie comics is cool. Like, I. I don't know what to do in that situation. Those things are the things that give me the most anxiety. Is the. Is the 10 cool person party is what I always feel like. Gosh, because I have no role there. I am an attendee.
- [35:37]
A
Do you consider yourself number 11 of the 10 cool people?
- [35:43]
B
Can I give you another nickname that I once got?
- [35:45]
A
Sure.
- [35:46]
B
The Queen of Uncool.
- [35:52]
A
Okay. Who gave you this name? Remember, you must have done something.
- [35:56]
B
I don't remember. It was. It was another piece of press, and they were just like, you know, Goldie is surprising in a lot of ways, and she wants to be like, the Queen of Uncool. She's going to be like, the top of LinkedIn or something. And this was when I was really doing so many videos on LinkedIn at the time. And folks were, you know, call LinkedIn the most uncool platform ever, which I don't know that I disagree, but it was just funny because then they're like, oh, so you're like the queen of uncool. And I was like, oh, I don't. That's like a hilarious title.
- [36:29]
A
That was being funny. That wasn't being, like, serious. Like, you're so uncool.
- [36:34]
B
I think that shout out to the folks in the three different sea monkey groups that I'm in. They all think I'm cool. So I raise sea monkeys, which are brine shrimp, which is a child's toy, and I'm in a group with a bunch of adults who all raise sea monkeys. And I have to say, I think I'm actually quite cool. Cool. In those three Facebook groups.
- [36:56]
A
You have a crazy concept, ideal daydreaming.
- [36:58]
B
Yes.
- [37:00]
A
What the heck is that?
- [37:01]
B
Yeah. So ideal daydreaming is based off one of my friends who used to have an incredibly super stressful job, AKA he was in finance, and he eventually quit and started traveling the world. And he would tell me about, like, I wish my life was like this. And now he has that dream life, and I'll just tell you what it is. So he lives outside the US with his partner, and they do this perfect day. They do this ideal day. Right? And I call it ideal daydreaming because this is the exercise is thinking about for your day, including your work, including your life, including your wife. Right? Like, including whoever is important in your. In your world, what does your ideal day look like? And for him, it's so simple. And it repeats almost every single day. On the weekday, which is every weekday, he gets up, he makes breakfast for him and his partner, then they kind of go off into their two different rooms and they do work. She writes, he works on his various businesses and things like that. So they work from home. At lunch, they get together. He makes her lunch. Sometimes she makes lunch too. They sit out on their terrace, and then they have lunch together outside together. And then they finish the work day. You know, they, after lunch, they go back, they do their work. Once they finish their workday, they either get together with their neighbors and have a dinner together with their neighbors, which is so cool and so communal, or they go out and eat at a restaurant. And that is the same day that they just repeat, honestly, almost every single day, except for when they're traveling and this has always been his ideal day. And so I offer this as a concept in my book as I think so many people think of their ideal work day and then their workday is like, okay, from nine, I get up and I do this, I do this. But you forget all of those beautiful pieces that surround your work, which is the people, hopefully that you love, that love you, that are around you and also your friends and also all these other things. I think it's beautiful to build those aspects of what that ideal day is into, when you're thinking, when you're daydreaming, when you're hoping for a different life.
- [39:13]
A
Who does the dishes in this ideal day?
- [39:15]
B
He does.
- [39:16]
A
Dang, where'd I get one of those? I'm just kidding. Wow. Okay.
- [39:22]
B
Yeah, yeah, I know dishes, they just throw them out the window onto their terrace.
- [39:26]
A
Chris got ideal day, man. Doing the dishes is not one of those ideal activities.
- [39:32]
B
I mean, he loves it because it gives him a break from work. So he's very happy to do that.
- [39:38]
A
He builds that into his vision board or whatever he's doing.
- [39:41]
B
Yeah, exactly. I'll give him this credit and I didn't use his real name in the book because he doesn't want to be named, but he doesn't have a mission board and he actually doesn't do those things. He just now he has a cadence, he has a rhythm. He's got it all right.
- [39:57]
A
For you, Goldie, what is your ideal daydreaming work life? Daylight.
- [40:03]
B
My IDDWD Something, something, something. For me, it's because I'm a night owl. Let's be real. So in an ideal, truly ideal day, which hopefully I will get sooner after this book tour is done, is I like to wake up a little bit later and then I start with my work.
- [40:23]
A
Like what time? Be specific here.
- [40:26]
B
In a perfect, ideal dream world, I'm waking up at 9 or 10am So I am, I am a, you know, late sleeper.
- [40:33]
A
That's not too late. That's not too late.
- [40:34]
B
Yeah, that's not too bad. Yeah, I mean, I could have said 1pm So I.
- [40:37]
A
That was what I was expecting.
- [40:39]
B
Yeah. So 9 or 10am I get up and then I do a little bit of work and then I have like an earlier lunch or breakfast lunch. I actually really love, like porridge. I love like a traditional, like Chinese or Asian breakfast lunch where you have like that kind of rice porridge with like the Chinese donut and all those other things. So very dim sumy if I can. I like to do that. I like to make that.
- [41:03]
A
Well, who made this lunch? How this lunch appear? You're not doing this right? ID'd me, so.
- [41:10]
B
Okay, okay, okay. Yeah. So ID'd is this magically appears. No, I'm just kidding. No, either I make it, which I, when I have enough time, I love to make things. So I love to cook. So either I make it or our amazing friends at Uber Eats brings it to my doorstep. Right? Let's be really real. And then I have this amazing meal and then doing work or doing meetings or doing whatnot or if I'm traveling then speaking or whatever that middle of the day part portion is and doing all of that stuff and then taking off a little bit early. I, I don't know, I love an old person dinner. You know, maybe I shouldn't say that, but I love a really early dinner. Even if I could do a 5:30pm dinner that's like so nice. So I love a super early dinner. I love it with my partner or with a group of friends. I love like a very like not obviously sitting alone dinner. I don't know, I said obviously. But like a communally dinner is my jam. So I love that. And then I like to actually go for walks. So like I will try to go for a walk around the neighborhood or you know, drive somewhere, go for walks. I like to like go for a walk and sometimes I'll actually do that at the top of the morning is I'll go for a long walk, I'll walk like half a mile mile just by myself or with another person that I know, a neighbor, just to get out of the house because I think it puts you in the right mindset. And then at some point in the day there's maybe some other sort of working out folded in there at some like stuffed inside in the middle of the day and then sleeping very late. So like I, in an ideal world, I actually really love answering emails at like 1am, 2am in the morning. I'm that person that loves a scheduler tool that lets you do that. And then it still goes like at 8am so it looks like you're up at the 8am But I'm up there answering them at like 1am, 2am Whatever a.m. it is.
- [43:07]
A
What is the benefit of dreaming about your ideal day?
- [43:12]
B
I think that the benefit of dreaming about your ideal day is that it helps you actually clarify that these are pieces in your ideal day. So if your ideal day is you want to be able to get up later, then I think also clearing your schedule and just Being really intentional and saying, I'm just not going to take 8am meetings anymore. If you can. If you can do that. But also saying, okay, I really want to make sure that I sort to prioritize my day. So maybe I do do work in the later half the day instead. Or if you're not spending enough time with people that you love and you like and all those other beautiful words, then how can you fold in more time? Can you get dinner with them? Can you get a lunch? Can you get coffee? Can you, like, I don't know, everything is food related, but of course it is. Can you. Can you just see them more? Like, how can you fold that in more into the week? Because I think so many of us also, we cram as much as humanly possible into the weekend and we say like, okay, weekend is for life and the work week is for only work. And I'm such a big fan of the work week is still part of your week. You should still have part of your life and a really good part of your life in that week.
- [44:29]
A
I agree. I think that if your week feels like it's drudgery and horrific and you're looking forward towards the weekend, you need to redesign your life. You should not have to live for your weekends. My wife's sometimes she'll say, oh, I'm so glad that Friday's here and the weekend's here. I'm like, but what's different? And she sometimes has a hard time answering that. And she goes, you're here.
- [44:54]
B
That is so cute. You can't see, but I'm making a little heart right now.
- [44:58]
A
But for context, I work at home. I'm here all the time.
- [45:03]
B
You never leave, quite literally.
- [45:05]
A
Unless I'm on a zoom call or I'm jamming on a webinar trying to build something. I'm in the house a lot. I have a detached home studio, so there's some distance between us. But literally, I'm like, after I do this call, I'm going upstairs. And between anything, I'm like, let's have dinner. Let's watch TV together. Let's. What are you doing?
- [45:23]
B
You're having dinner on the terrace.
- [45:25]
A
I'm not an outside dinner kind of guy. I'm a dinner in front of TV kind of guy. So it can veg out or whatever. Or, I don't know, just. I consume a lot of YouTube content and it's not like it requires all of my attention. So I prefer to do it then while I'm eating. So that works out Give me a compelling reason why we should go out and buy this book.
- [45:46]
B
The compelling reason for me is so many of us are not given, we think we're not given permission to build our own personal brands. So this book is not only that permission, but the best early review that I got is that my book doesn't feel like a lecture. It feels like a conversation with a friend. And that is exactly what this book is. If you have been thinking about growing your personal brand as an introvert, this book will not shout at you. This book is not a lecture about what you're doing wrong. This book is just ideas and a conversation that you're having with a friend about what you could be doing. And I hope some of it, maybe all of it, works for you. And plus, the person who does the voiceover of the audio version of my book, she has just the best and most calming voice. So please also in the audible version.
- [46:43]
A
It'S almost as if the introvert wrote this book.
- [46:46]
B
It's almost as if an introvert, almost as if wrote it for introverts. And I'll tell you, very early on, one of the publishers that we met with that we didn't go with wanted it to be personal branding for introverts and extroverts.
- [47:01]
A
Then why even put the introverts and extroverts right?
- [47:04]
B
Exactly. I said, then you want me to write the book Personal Branding for everyone? They're like, no, we don't want you to write that book. We want you to write the book for personal branding for introverts and extroverts. And I was like, you know what? Somebody else will write that book. It will be beautiful and it's just not going to be me.
- [47:17]
A
Where can we get this book?
- [47:19]
B
You can get this book wherever books are sold and you can definitely get this book on my website. Goldiechan.combook.
- [47:26]
A
That'S Goldiechan.combook. what's the follow up book?
- [47:32]
B
I guess you'll have to find out. I guess we'll have to sit next to each other at another Jerry dinner. And then I will. Chris, I will tell you very secretly before I duck out to the second dinner, what that second book is.
- [47:45]
A
That's what introverts do for each other. Like, hey, you okay? Do you need me to rescue you?
- [47:49]
B
I really. Chris, should I not have thought that you were an introvert? I definitely thought you were an introvert the first time I met you.
- [47:55]
A
Well, I think the world. Okay, I have a bias, obviously, but I believe the introverts who can Gather their own way. Who can muster up the courage to put themselves out there, to lean into all their weirdness and celebrate that they make the best content. They're some of the best creators, because introverts oftentimes are very reflective and deep thinkers. Hence my thinking about the universe face. Look, you know.
- [48:21]
B
Yeah. I'm just saying because you were actually seeing. You said no, but I think you kind of were thinking about the universe and you had that face like you were out in the clouds. I didn't want to interrupt you to do my little photo, but I thought. Had that intrusive thought. I was like, don't bother Chris because he's in the middle of things and there's a little mini crowd around Chris. For those of you who don't know, Chris always attracts little mini crowds. And then I was that person that was like, hi, Chris is my friend. I'm going to take a photo with him.
- [48:51]
A
It's kind of what you have to do, Chris.
- [48:53]
B
That's kind of what you have to do when you're faced with Christo, the Christo of LinkedIn.
- [48:58]
A
Anytime you want to sit next to me and just completely dis me and pretend like I don't exist or matter, I'd be happy to have another meal with you.
- [49:05]
B
Yay. Let's do it. Let's. Let's have another meal. We'll have a third dinner together.
- [49:10]
A
Yes. What? You know, our second dinner doesn't really count. I won't count that as a second dinner. You know what I mean? Cause it's like we weren't really, like, interacting and we were in the same room eating sort of.
- [49:22]
B
The third dinner is going to be just magicals.
- [49:25]
A
Yeah. Quiet, just smaller, intimate, like, nobody talking. I always tell people, why do they always host networking events where the venue is really loud and they crank the music? How do we talk in this? Didn't make any sense to me. But that's how they do it.
- [49:41]
B
Oh, gosh. Yeah. Where it's mercenary. That's how I think of it, is when it feels like you have to hunt people down to also talk to them. That's my least favorite version of networking, is when you also are doing the thing where you're chasing the person who has the hors d' oeuvres on the tray because you're desperately hungry and you forgot to eat all day, which is me.
- [50:02]
A
There's a strategy for this.
- [50:04]
B
Oh, really? What's the strategy?
- [50:06]
A
Watch where they come out of the kitchen. Situate yourself there.
- [50:10]
B
This is how I know you play A lot of video games. Do you play video games?
- [50:13]
A
You see what I'm saying? This is where the respawn is.
- [50:17]
B
Cause I was like, think about it. This is a video game. This is 100%. You're NPC. You're, like, waiting by the door.
- [50:24]
A
Dare you call me an npc? I'm a PC. What are you talking about?
- [50:28]
B
No, a main character. You're a playable character. You got your own dlc. You know, you got your own skin, Chris. You got multiple skins. You know, if you're in Fortnite, you have multiple skins. You have your own dance, your own moves.
- [50:40]
A
I do. So you watch where they come out of. Now, here's the thing. I'm a little bit of a germaphobe. Not a real one, just a pretend one. I don't like it when it's like the last two things, because, you know, people touch things and they mistouch and it's like, I don't know where your hands have been. This is scary. But a lot of guys who leave the bathroom do not wash their hands. I'm like, ooh, gross, gross. Okay.
- [51:00]
B
That's a beautiful way to end this podcast. Just end with that.
- [51:05]
A
Okay, so you situate yourself near there. The place full. It's fresh, it's hot. As hot as these things are, you know, they're not really. You get what you want, and when you're filled up and you're ready to leave, then you just move wherever you want to move.
- [51:16]
B
This is why I'm. You're a little sis and I'm not the big sis. Because I'm learning so much in this moment of real life. Skills that I wish I had learned before. Before I wish I had learned these things. That would have been so helpful.
- [51:31]
A
You know what? You inspired me. I've done this before. The Introvert Survival Guide to a networking event. I need to add more to it now that we're having this conversation. I thought this is common knowledge, people.
- [51:42]
B
No, I think you need to add that. And I Now I. Because I haven't read this, this amazing tome that you are describing. So I also want a copy so I can go through it and say, wow, I didn't know all these things about introversion. And I need to. I need to know these things about introversion, especially if there are any tactics around food. Any food related tactics. That's what I. I want to. Can you make a separate guide? The Introvert's Guide to Food Survival?
- [52:11]
A
Yes, let me write that. How to stay fed.
- [52:14]
B
And you know what I don't actually need the first guide. I just want the second guide, just the food one.
- [52:19]
A
It's a pleasure talking to you. My guest today has been Goldie Chan. She's got a book, it's called Personal Branding for Introverts. It's available everywhere you buy find books and you can also go to goldiechan.com book and buy it directly from her, I'm assuming directly from you. And you can do that. And if you missed this episode, let me tell you what you've missed. My strategy for public speaking is based on a flying squirrel. I'm just going to jump. There's some faith in someone to catch me somewhere along the way. And if you don't have any crazy cool things, make sure you do something that's crazy cool to stand out because it will really help you in a social environment. And next time you ditch your fellow introvert, make sure you ask them. You need me? Are you okay? You can mouth it.
- [53:05]
B
I mean, you just. Chris, you always have your fan club around you. So I don't want to stop the fan club. I don't want the president of the Chris do fan club to come after me. Goldie Chan, who is not the president of the Christopher Club, Let me tell you something, Goldie.
- [53:21]
A
There's a buddy, he's 6 foot 3, he's Brazilian. His name is Drigo. We travel a lot together. Unlike some people, he's always checking in on me. Like you. Okay? Because sometimes you get trapped by usually a half drunk, extroverted person and I just can't get out. I'm like, I'm stuck in this combo. So he literally walks over.
- [53:41]
B
Okay, Chris, Chris, next time when I bother you to take an awkward photo together, that's escape.
- [53:47]
A
Hey, I need you for photo.
- [53:48]
B
Then I will next time be like, chris, I'm sorry, but I need you to walk 20ft with me to take this photo. And I'm that rude person. So I will say that next time I will pull you out of that situation and then be like, Chris, where is the food coming out of? So we can make sure that we get the hot entrees before the pea hands touch them.
- [54:08]
A
And I will do the same for you.
- [54:11]
B
Thank you.
- [54:11]
A
Chris, after I've seen you talk to three people like, we gotta get her out.
- [54:14]
B
You know, when it's more than two, then it's. Then I'm probably not in that situation willingly.
- [54:19]
A
So that's it. I got you.
- [54:21]
B
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.
- [54:22]
A
It's been real, it's been fun and it's been real fun. Usually the joke is it's not real fun, but. All right, Goldie, thanks so much.
- [54:32]
B
Thank you so much for having me.