← The Futur with Chris Do
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- [00:00]
A
Hey, future fam. We're back with another episode, and this time we're talking to Juul. We think this topic will be of interest to many of you, and it's about how you hear, receive, and process feedback. But without saying too much more, I'm going to throw this over to Jewel. Jewel, what are we doing today?
- [00:19]
B
Well, Chris, we're going to talk about feedback on both sides of the table. And the reason why I wanted us to talk about this is because we've done a ton of calls together, both on Clubhouse and Instagram and LinkedIn lives especially. Last year, we did a whole series on sales. We've had people come up and do role plays. They try to sell to us, and then we take it or leave it. And most of the times we were both leaving it, which was hilarious. And I noticed that how you give feedback, how I give feedback, not exactly the same. And I think our viewpoints at the end of the day maybe in a very similar place, but we come at it from a slightly different lens. We've both had journeys. You a little bit longer than mine. You've achieved a level of success that I think most people would objectively say they would also like something like that. Me, myself, I'm not totally there yet, but I do think that when I look at my journey and I look at your journey and the journey of many other people who have achieved some level of recognition, of wealth status, of even just creating something, being an influencer, I was reflecting on this, and of course, this is my inner voice. I think this is the inner voice of a lot of creatives, is we intellectually know that we need feedback in order to help us along this journey, that we aspire to get to something further along than we already are. And yet feedback can feel so painful. And I even see this on Reddit. I see this on threads on Facebook. I see people reaching out to me with questions. I've had my friends where they ask me for feedback, but I can tell they don't really want it. So, yeah, I think if we can dive into some of this, this will be fun, especially if we get into the real razor truth. What you really think?
- [02:08]
A
You just reminded me of something. And that is sometimes I give people feedback and they're like, oh, Chris roasted me. I'm like, well, I think we may have different definitions of roasting, and I'm going to go with the one that's mostly associated with pop culture, like the roasting of Tom Brady, which is inviting some friends and maybe some not friends to Go full bore, attack you for every single thing you've ever done in your life, whether you're responsible for it or not. And it takes a brave person to sit in that chair, to invite this upon themselves. And sometimes I think some of the comics take it too far. With Tom Brady, I think he had said something about, say whatever you want about me, my relationships, my ex wife, the circumstances under which we got divorced, but leave my coach out of this. He had some rules and some of the comics respected that and some didn't. And they talked about afterwards where they're like, no, a roast, you don't get to make those rules. We go where we go because that's the whole point of a roast. And so sometimes it's very mean spirited attacks disguised as loving affection for somebody. And the way that they soothe you afterwards is, Tom, Chris, Jewel, we love you. Congratulations. You're the best person ever. That's how they kind of put the bandage on top of a gaping wound. And so I want to draw that distinction. I want to be very precise about language, how people say, like, well, Chris didn't like what I did, therefore I'm roasted. There is no mean spiritedness to what it is that I say. Now I think the reason why people interpret it as roasting is because their level of friction, tension and hearing critical feedback is so fragile that anything that sounds like room for improvement sounds like a direct, full throated attack or roast on the person. Now, I want to acknowledge something. If you are not a creative person, traditionally trained as I was, and you didn't go to like a really good rigorous design program as I did, you may not really know what hearing feedback sounds like. And I've experienced hearing feedback both prior to going to Art center, at Art center and afterwards, that sometimes I almost feel like I have to puke in my mouth. The reason why is because most feedback is designed to soothe your soul. And so if that's the norm, what happens is anything that sounds contrary to that becomes very problematic. And we're seeing this too. And I'm not saying like one generation is better than the other, but I'm seeing the changed evolution where I think it's boomers who raise Gen Xers who then raise millennials who become part of the problem, and then millennials are going to raise the next generation. And so what happens is there's such a high degree of sensitivity right now that even in the art programs in which the teachers have been teaching this for 30 years now, they have to change the way they teach. It becomes Very sensitive now, what grade that you're going to give a student because they can challenge you openly and you have to go defend yourself in front of the Academic review board. And so they say, like, grade fairly, but don't grade too harshly because we don't want to deal with this anymore. So those A's, they don't mean as much as they used to because we choose the path of least resistance. Unless you're there with one of these old schoolers, these OGs, where they're well into their 60s or 70s, and they don't give a flying F what happens. And there are less and less of those types of professors out there. Now, I'm not condoning some of the atrocious behavior that they have, which is to ridicule you, to diminish your self worth, to personally attack you. And there's a line, and that line is very clear to me when you step over that line. But me simply saying, I think your choice of type goes against the overall brand essence and is conflicted with the things that you're saying that you're trying to communicate is now interpreted as violent, personal attack on somebody. And so I think it's worthwhile for us to dig deeper into this and see if we can uncover some more nuanced conversation and perhaps a higher level of understanding or truth in air quotes. Truth.
- [06:15]
B
Okay. Before we get into it though, I gotta ask, how on earth does someone grade fairly but not too harshly? Because sometimes you're gonna have people who produce a level of work that isn't amazing and you can tell where they clearly did not put in the effort, they did not put in the time. And I think you've even shared a story like this at Art center where somebody has turned in something and you blasted them.
- [06:42]
A
I object to that term, blasted. I just call people out on the shenanigans. So I'm a radical truth transparency kind of guy. And so I tell every single person, first of all, this class is elective. If you don't want to take this class, please don't be here. There's no reason for you to be in this class and to show up to this class to say you got into this class and you're in it is only the beginning, it's not the ending. And there are other people who'd probably like to be in this class, but they can't get in because there's a cap. So if you're that type of person, do us both a favor and drop out so someone else can take the class. Now, most schools only have a one week period where you can drop and add a class because it's critical to the success of the student to begin almost on week one, which creates a lot of problems. So I'd like for schools to revisit this policy where you can audit for a little bit longer before you decide which you'll keep and which you'll drop. But in art schools, where there's a very low student to teacher ratio, this becomes very problematic. Number two, I say to them, I'm here to teach everyone who wants to be taught. Not everyone who shows up, but everyone who wants to be taught. I'm not your nanny, your babysitter, or your parent. I do not care if you do the work. Some teachers take personal offense if you don't do the work, I don't. Not at all. If you want to be here and you want to check your social feeds or figure out what you're having for dinner tonight and who you're going to date and swipe left in or writing, I don't really care because you'll get as much as you put in. What I will do though, is I will pour into the people who really care and show up. So what I don't want to do is for you to show up, not try and ask for the same amount of attention and for the energy from me because you're barely showing up. I'm not here to do the work for you and I could care less. So if you do what you're asked to do and you turn in your assignments on time and you make the minimal effort, no problem. I'll give you a circle. C is not bad, but if you don't do the work, you'll do much worse than the C the rest of us who are trying. I ask you, for now, forget about the grade. It's an arbitrary, subjective thing I must do. And the only way I can rationalize in my brain is some people are making a much bigger effort and are giving it their all. So I cannot reward them the same as someone who's barely showing up but doing all the work. So that's how I kind of figure out my head. So I look at the person who is the most exemplary student, who's doing everything above and beyond, they're going to receive the best grade. Now I want to tell you this. If you're on scholarship, if your grades matter, make sure you show up and do the work. Otherwise, forget about the grade. Because at the end of this journey, no one will ever ask you where you went to school, what class you took, who is your teacher and what grade did you get? Because the proof will be in the body of the work, it'll be in the quality of conversations you're able to have. So this is a stupid academic thing we must do for reasons I don't want to get into. But these are the rules we all understand. They say yes. Anybody not understand no. And then we will proceed. So we're having a very kind of like, let's set the table, let's figure out who's here and why we're here and then we can do some deep learning. And I tell them this other thing, let's make a list of everything we would like to learn within the constraints of this class being a three to five hour class for 14 weeks. What do we hope to learn? We'll prioritize. And I would design the assignments based on what you want to learn.
- [09:56]
B
Okay. So you set very clear expectations. You give them the choice of, well, if you want to do this, then you can do that and I won't care. But if you want to show up and actually put in the work, then I'm going to pour into you. So you're very, I think, descriptive and much more, how do I say this, oriented around helping them understand, like how to get the most of this experience, which I don't know if I've ever heard any of my professors in undergrad do that for me. And sad to say, I was one of those people who, if I even barely showed up to class, I don't think I was present most of the time. Now that said, you give them all of this delicious buffet of experience they can choose from and yet you still had students turning in work that was clearly ill prepared. What was your feedback during those times?
- [10:50]
A
There are two types of students, or actually the two types of students that I prefer not to teach. The type of student who's so strong headed that they show you work and you try to say something and they defend, defend, they shift and like no, I like to do like this. And as soon as I figure that out, I don't want to give them any more of my time. And I think sometimes they're going to be great. They just, I'm not the teacher for them and sometimes they're going to be terrible, but they're unteachable, at least for me, not ever, just by me. And then the second type of student is, is showing up, they're there for different reasons why they're there wasting somebody's money I think hopefully not wasting their own, and they don't want to do the work. For whatever reason, the work doesn't inspire them. They're going through tough times, and I'm okay with that. It's the type of student who asks and pretends as if they've done a lot of work that is insulting to my intelligence. So we go around the room, everybody's work is up. And I said, what happens to your work? And they showed me something. And I said, do you have anything else? We already know this is a trap. It's a trap. As soon as your professor says, is there anything else you have to show? Or, how long did you work on this? So I asked the student, how long did you work on this? They're like, well, a long time. I said, well, humor me. How long? I'm not talking about thinking time, I'm not talking about going to the library time, but time on the box, and then they make up some number. I said, well, that's interesting. If I were to ask this class, given the work product, how long it would take them, do you think this would be the average answer? Above or below average? So now we begin to lie. And students are so stupid, they just keep lying. Well, there's all these other ideas that I had. I'm like, where are they? They're on a drive. I'm like, where? In your backpack at home? Where can we see this? And it's just they're digging a little deeper and deeper. So when you say you put people on blast, I don't. I mean, students might feel like I'm being put on blast, but I'm just holding you accountable for the words and actions that you pretend to have taken and said, that's all. If you said, you know what, Professor, Mr. Doe or whatever they want to call me, I had some circumstances. I didn't show up this week. I put in min effort. I'm like, I appreciate that. Hopefully I can help you with the other stuff and why don't we move on and that's it. I'm not going to grill you for that. And then if you need to talk to me, because you've got family problems, parents are like alcoholics, whatever, or abusive. Let's talk about that. Let's see if I can help you in a different way. I'd be more than happy to help you, but one of the things is, I require honesty. If you lie to me, I have a problem. I don't have a problem if your work sucks. I don't have a problem if you put in min effort. But I do have a problem when you want more than what you're giving. There are moments, too, when students inadvertently lie because no one's held them accountable for this. I blame mostly parents and the teachers who treat them. They've got, like, kid gloves on, and they're overly sensitive and protective to what the students might be going through. And I think that kind of behavior and that kind of infantilizing the student will not prepare them for the real world. And this education costs too much money. I don't want them to, like, on portfolio night or industry night, they show their work, and it's embarrassing to them and their parents and the teachers and the school, and they sit there and think. All this time, for the last four years, everyone has said good. Maybe they never say great, but they said good. I find that to be a failure of the entire system and that their teachers, the guest lecturers, all lack spine. I find that personally very offensive. That's why I can't do these things anymore, because I hulk out, man.
- [14:29]
B
You've told me about some of these design competitions where you're on a panel with other judges, and these judges are doing exactly what you're describing here, right. And you're listening to their feedback, and then it's your turn. So what is going on here? I do think that given what we've seen, say, even 30, 40 years ago, and not just in the American system or in the Asian system, just globally, people do seem to be very much more in the coddling mindset.
- [15:03]
A
That's the word I was looking for. Coddling.
- [15:05]
B
Yeah. And of course, me as a coach, too. I'm looking to always navigate that line or that balance between giving someone the truth but not crushing their spirit and wanting them to feel inspired and to know, like, where to go after this. But then you run into these competition where it's literally like, you are to be judged and evaluated on your submission into this contest. And yet the judges aren't being honest. They're still giving that sort of feedback of, yeah, this was good. Or perhaps they give feedback on just, like, one trivial little thing. And then here you are, it's your turn, and you're debating how much to share. Like, what is that?
- [15:47]
A
Like, it begins in my mind, like, stay calm. It's just a moment. It doesn't have to be your moment. Don't see red. And I can tell the students who know me really well look at me like, wait till Chris starts talking. The smackdown of your lifetime is about to begin. And they're waiting for, I could tell they're leaning in. They're like, oh, look at their chops, like unload on this human. And I sit there and I think, I wonder what this person wants. I've hopefully matured enough in my criticism and my self development that I can try to figure out what they need right now by asking instead of presuming maybe they don't want to be a world class designer or creative director or animator, whatever it is. So I ask with this work, what is it that you hope to be able to do after school? And that might sound like a trap question already. It's not intended to be. It's just like, let's get alignment with what you want to do. How are people providing you feedback without knowing this? There's a lot of assumptions being made. And so this one student said, well, I'd like to be a music video director. I said, okay, so based on that, if this is really what you want, let's look at the body of work that you've been able to produce in the last four years. Because grad shows months away, like six weeks away. And then they talk about this one video that they made. So in four years you've made one video. So this has to be like a really good video for it to carry your entire dreams, hopes, ambitions on its shoulder like that. And we look at the video and I said, well, here's what this video looks like to me. So first of all, they told a little story about the video. Like that's for my brother's punk band and it's shot on a white cove, which is like a white seamless. And it's a three camera setup, locked cameras, and so it's standard lighting and they just play. I said, well, usually when people are trying to meet music video director, they have a vision. They want to transform the experience of listening to the music and be faithful to the music itself. Do you think you've done that here? No. So where is your artistic vision? Like what was the director's treatment? What did you write? 3 camera setup white seamless BAND plays where's the vision? And the quick test is if I just change the band and this works for that band, then it works for all bands, so it works for no band. And now I can feel like the fury growing inside of me thinking about all the conversations in my mind. Like the three other yes lecturers, the instructor, the person who's been guiding a whole system of people have failed you. Every instructor you've had up until this point has failed you. And so now I'm kind of enraged. And then I go past the tipping point. I'm like, I don't know what happens. I kind of black out, and I just go at everything, and then I probably cross the line. And then the smoke clears. I'm in a haze. I'm like, what the hell just happened?
- [18:46]
B
And.
- [18:47]
A
And everyone's like. The look on their face is shock and horror. And I can feel my heart racing, Jewel. I can feel, like, my voice shaking, too, because I'm doing that thing where there's a lot of emotion and anger mostly, and my voice is just shaking with that. You know how, like, you get really angry with someone? I don't think I did this. I'll just tell you to what level, just to help people understand. Like, when you're so angry somebody has offended your family, taking advantage of somebody you really care about has hurt one of your family members. And now it's like you don't even think right or wrong anymore. It's like, destroy. And you say things through your mouth with your teeth kind of gritting together. Like, if you ever do that again, you. And that's the feeling I have. I'm not saying I said it like that, but that's how I'm like. I'm just really disappointed in this whole system. And I remember pretty clearly. And that's the last time I did one of those kind of critiques. I walked out into the hallway, and I could just feel like my body temperature's just too hot. I need to cool down. Figuratively, literally, outside, just cooling down because the room's really hot. And a bunch of students crowd around me, like, oh, my God. I'm, like, thinking what happened? What had happened there? And, like, it needed to be said. No one has the guts to say it. We're all thinking this for every semester we've been with this student. And just so people know what may or may not happen to this one student a couple, like, semesters later, one of those students that was in that class where I gave that feedback to finally, like, met up with me at some point. And they're like, you remember that student? Remember Jan or whatever her name is? Like, who? You know, the one that you unloaded on? I'm like, fu. It's that one. And like, yeah, well, she quit. I'm like, oh, man, that's devastating to hear. I don't mean to tell anyone to quit. I'm not the arbiter of what you should do with your life. I'm just giving you the feedback based on your project. And then they said she decided instead of pursuing a career in music video direction, she pursued a career in photography. And she's doing really well now. And I was relieved because I don't want it to be that I'm the person that somebody goes to their deathbed and says, one mother effing teacher who said this to me because, you know, at some point somebody makes it and they do really well. And then it's the night of the award acceptance speech and they're like, you know what? I just want to call it one teacher I had in my life, Mr. Doe, who told me I wouldn't amount to much. And da da da da. Whatever it is that I may or may not have said, well, here, this is for you. F you mother effer. I'm like, fudge. I don't want to be that person. I don't want to be the dream crusher. But I feel like something has to be said and I've elected myself to do it. I don't feel great about it afterwards though. I have to tell you, I think.
- [21:44]
B
That'S hard though, what you're describing, especially someone who has come from a lifetime of what I would say almost like abusive feedback from my family. And I know that a lot of people out in the audience, if they listen to this, they can probably relate. I had the dad who I think inadvertently gave me the message that whatever I did was not enough. I remember this one time where I brought home my report card. I was a junior in high school and I can still remember this like it was yesterday. So I think it was like third quarter report cards, they just came out. And I had just gotten the best grades of my life. And even my homeroom teacher, as she gives me the card, she's like, this is the best report card I've ever seen. And all of my friends in class are like crowding around. They're like, oh my God, like, let me see that report card. They're like, dang, I wish this were my report card. Like, I would kill for this. So I go home and I'm thinking, finally. I can't wait to show my parents. They're finally going to say I did well. And my dad, he looks at it, my grades were out of six classes. 100, 100, 100, 100. There was a 99 and a 95. And he looks at me, he looks at the report card, he looks at me and then he goes, why aren't these two also 100 and I remember just I felt like somebody had thrown like a bucket of water in my face. So that was kind of the spirit of what I grew up with. It was never really like, you did well feedback. There were times like that, but I think maybe five times that I can remember. But a thousand instances of this ain't right. This is really bad. Like, why are you so stupid? So I'm listening to your stories, I'm reflecting on my past. I can see why a lot of people are scared of feedback. Where's the line, man? Because we don't want people to go out into the world and have their spirits crushed. I've read a lot of stories like this where some professors, I'm just, I'm sorry, I'm like, you should not be a professor if you think your job is to crush the dreams of others. These are people who come, come to you with vulnerability and trust and they are asking you to help them make their work better. And maybe not everybody has such grace. And like you said, some of them are strong headed, but there are some people. And you know, I'm thinking about that girl you're talking about who went on to photography. I'm like, oh, thank the Lord. For whatever reason she received a message, whether it was from you or maybe a combination of things happening, but she found a better path, something that was maybe more suited for her. And you're describing these moments where you hulk out. I've experienced moments like that. But then on the other hand, we also do see those moments where people, they don't give the feedback they should. And you're like, are you serious? Is no one going to say this? And then that mounting fury. So I struggle with this with my clients too, where they show up to the sessions. I can tell they haven't done the work. And my one and only thing is that you do the work. If you're serious about this, if you're serious about changing who you are as a person, then you must do the work. And I get a lot of excuses and then I can feel my temper just climbing and I want to unload on them. I want to just pick apart everything that they're telling me and I have to stop myself. So where is the line?
- [25:24]
A
I think answering a question of the line turns into a binary thing. It's not a binary thing. There are some general rules that we want to abide by if we aspire to be better teachers, coaches, consultants to people. Number one is, are you asked to do this? If you're not, just shut your eye Hole. Giving unsolicited feedback is horribly received most of the time. And giving unsolicited feedback does a certain thing. It says, I own a superior position, I know more, I've experienced more, I'm wiser and you're less capable. Therefore, I feel a great duty upon myself to tell you what you should be doing. Which leads me to rule number two is, do you know what you're doing? Have you been there before? Have you walked those steps? And this is where a lot of Asian parents get this thing wrong. I don't want to call out your parents right now, but I'm going to ask you this one question. Are your parents highly educated? Do they have the terminal degree or whatever it is that they wound up doing in their lives?
- [26:20]
B
No.
- [26:20]
A
What level of education do they have?
- [26:22]
B
I think some high school. I don't actually know because they clearly feel a lot of shame and embarrassment around this.
- [26:30]
A
Which leads me to the problem with this is that most parents raise children to fix the sins of their past. Not your past, Jewel, but their own past. And it's quite clear. For example, and this is horrible, but I'm here to speak some truths. Let's say they married early. They married someone from not great family. Or they got pregnant early because they had sex at an early age and had unprotected sex. Or they did something impulsive at their job and lost the best opportunity. And so when they raise you, they're trying to travel back in time through you. So they want you to go to a great school, they want you to marry later. They're super hypercritical of who you marry. They tell you you can cannot have sex, you can't do all these things because they're just trying to correct for their sins. And that's how most parents raise their children. Everyone reflect back on your parents right now. Why did they tell you to go to Harvard? Chances are because they didn't go to Harvard. Why did they tell you you should become an attorney? Because you know what? They're working a blue collar life. Now. A lot of the intention for good parents is that they want to reduce your suffering in life. All good parents want that. But how they express this, how they communicate this, how they manage this, is they withhold their love, their praise until you do what they want you to do. And this is horribly manipulative. I was asked this question, you must be very proud of your children. I'm like, why do you say that? Well, they're going to a great school, they're studying, they're Doing great things, they're making money. I said, I'm not proud of them for that. They're like, what? I said, I'm already proud of them. I'm proud of them for existing, period. It's not conditional. My pride doesn't go or diminish. I'm not saying I'm proud of you because you do the things that either society or mom or I want you to do. I'm proud of you because you exist, that you're pursuing what it is that you want in this life. And I want to provide as little interference, very laissez faire, hands off, allow you to do what you need to do in this life, whatever it is, on whatever timetable in which you want to do this. And very rarely do I want to interfere if I see you moving on a self destructive path or one that's very short sighted. Because children don't have great. They don't have great control over impulse. There's not a great sense of delayed gratification like don't eat this now, eat this in a month it'll be twice as much or three times as much. They want to just have what they want right now, right then and there. And if anything, the way that I try to influence my own kids is by leading by example, not by telling them what to do. So usually it's like that. Joel, I don't know that many people who've got a PhD in something maybe because I don't know that many smart friends where their parents are like this and they want the same for their children because their life is so freaking good. Even still, I would still say that they're trying to live again through their children. And my whole thing, and you've heard me say this before, is you had your shot. Whether or not someone gave you that freedom or not, don't pass that sin onto your children. Be the first, if necessary, in your family to break this generational curse of trying to relive your life through your children. They deserve their shot. Or you should not be a parent. So if you're not ready for that, don't become a parent. It's a choice. So when you choose have unprotected sex, you're choosing to roll the dice and you may or may not have a child after this. And so my wife and I, we were very intentional with everything we had done. So we decided we're not going to have children until our lives were stable. And so we didn't have children until much later on in life. Like I'm in my 30s and we've been dating since I was like 24, 23. So it's a good chunk of time before we say, let's have children. Is this relationship going to work? Is our business, our financial affairs in order? Is there, do we have a stable house to bring children into? Because the last thing we want to do is to bring someone into that world and thrust them into chaos as much as we can. So I think that's the problem. So if we go on to the rules here, number one is make sure it's invited, like you're not giving unsolicited feedback. Number two, have you been there before or at least adjacent? Like say you don't have a degree in engineering, but you have one in astrophysics or something. You're well learned, you're a learned person and you can help guide them. So they ask, do you have expertise or experience somewhere close to it, within the ballpark? Number three is when you give feedback, ask yourself, what does the person want? What is going to be most helpful to them at this point? Because the whole point of giving feedback is to be helpful to the person. Some people want to just get a pat on the back. So give them a pat on the back. Some people really need to know, how can I do this better? Some people need a combination of both. Not all the same time, not every time. And so the more you care about a person, the more you should feel inclined to not sugarcoat what you believe is to be true. And you should always caveat as this is not a fact. This is my opinion and since you asked for advice, this is my take on it. But please feel free to interpret just how you want then. Now, this is a little bit different when there's actually a structure in place like student and teacher or boss and employee or supervisor supervised, it's a little bit different. But in most normal, quote, unquote, non professional relationships where it's just two friends or a mentor, a mentee or two peers talking, if they ask for it, you should always just check in with them. What kind of feedback will be most helpful for you right now? And number four is you should try to the best of your ability to use non violent, non judging language. And people think, well, the things you say, Chris, are violent. Well, that's an interpretation. What we're saying is there's no judgment or value assignment to the words that I'm using, plus I'm not jumping to conclusions. That's what Marshall Rosenberg describes as violent language. We're putting a value statement or we're prejudging the conclusion. Saying things like that won't work. Well, how do we know that we're prejudging it? So using neutral objective language that's not judging is very difficult to do because we're so socialized to use violent language because that's how everybody speaks.
- [32:58]
B
I agree. I think that's probably one of the hardest challenges I had. As you can imagine, I didn't have a lot of friends when I was growing up. And the only friends I did have were because they tolerated me. I mean, I enjoyed a certain level of people coming into my orbit just because I tended to be like one of the smart kids in the class. But I had atrocious command of language and non judging, nonviolent language. And I'm sorry to say that I didn't really start learning this lesson until maybe I was 30. I did not realize how foul my language was sometimes to other people because I was just oblivious and also because nobody gave me that feedback. Now you also know I was a gamer, so that just made it worse. Gamer language and gamer culture is so toxic. It just kind of feeds into that. It's very common for people to say, dude, like, you're awful. And that's me putting this in a nice way. You know, they would say you're garbage, you should just delete your computer, delete your life, like stuff like that. And it's just, it's not cool. So literally, I think I was maybe 30 ish when someone for the first time told me like, dude, that's not cool, like, why are you saying that to me? And I remember recoiling and I felt offended, which is ridiculous that I had the audacity to feel offended because I was just like, dude, like, this is everybody, this is how everybody talks. So why are you jumping down my throat like, get off your high horse. So it obviously took me a while for that to like get through to me like what he was trying to tell me.
- [34:40]
A
I do want to say a couple things about gamers and how people talk. There are the gamers that are on your team and there's players you play against. So if we talk about their opponents, let's just mute all of them because it's pretty childish out there. Usually young adolescent men who, who don't have a ton of social skills who in this one space can dominate and some of them who are very good can play at levels in which it's hard for normal people to process. I've watched some of these things. I'm like, every Hope, desire, dream, fantasy. Becoming a professional gamer was dashed in a second because when they triple jump and shoot something behind their back and hit the target with like no scope, I'm like, I'm done. I need to play with fools at my level. And then there's the people on your own team or friendly games that you have with people that you know and like and trust. And there is a part of gamer culture is trash talking. Now, trash talking is a little bit different than in the street talking because you are allowed and sometimes encouraged to say horribly violent things. But they're, they're funny and they're. The context is like, we don't mean any of this. This is pretty silly. So when I hear my son yelling at somebody, you're garbage. He doesn't literally think the person's garbage, but in this situation where he had every advantage, you know, the enemy's back is to you and you fumble that thing, you're kind of playing like garbage. And we can say this without, I think, hopefully hurting them, as long as we know we're on the same team or we're in the same universe together. I do want to say that for all parents to write off video games would be wrong for this. And I think some level of criticism like that and just trash talking that's done not to hurt you more like on a roast, it actually makes you a little bit more resilient because you're not going to encounter people who are going to love on you all the time. And when I'm playing like I have two left thumbs, you call me out on it. You're like, how did you bungle that? I'm like, dude, I dropped the ball in the big. You know, I pretty much just shoot me in the face, put me out of my misery, because I'm not playing well this game. And we joke, you know, and we, we pull up stats like, okay, so we know who's stinking up the locker room right now. It's like the four bottom players. Like, please just hide in a hole while the rest of us do the heavy lifting. It's all done in Jess. Now, I say that, but clearly some people will take it too far and they'll drive people to states of depression. But those aren't your friends, I don't think.
- [37:02]
B
No, they are not your friends. But I do remember, like, as somebody who has played some, several of these games at competitive levels, I didn't appreciate it when people on my own team said I was trash. So it sort of going back to what you Were saying about a value statement. I don't think people really understand what you mean by that.
- [37:24]
A
They may not. And it depends on your relationship. I play almost exclusively with people I know and their friends in real life or their virtual friends. Otherwise I don't play with them. I just like, no, I don't want to play with you. That's cool. And we all take turns being trash. We really do. And you know what, I'm curious too. If, like when you single handedly held it down for the team, did they sing their praises or they were like, oh, you got lucky this one time.
- [37:52]
B
I saw it all across the board. To be honest, when you play games as a woman, at least back in the day, I don't know what it's like now since I've been in the scene. But back then, you got haters if you did well. And you got haters even worse if you didn't do well. And then you had people who were like, you could do no wrong just because you were a girl in the game, period.
- [38:14]
A
You get both. You get it all. And I've seen that too. I'm like, somebody's sweet on some girl right now. It's just like, come on. I like to look at this objectively. And let's not beat around the bush here. The gaming culture is very male, adolescent dominated. It can be misogynistic and it's super bro y kind of fraternity style. And people literally teabag you on the game. But I don't think in real life they're trying to teabag anybody. It's just. It's kind of hilarious. Yeah, you pwned me. I got it. Yeah, I deserve that. I had you debt to rights and somehow bungled this teabag my face. It's cool. It's all there. And I don't try to go on tilt because that'll mess me up on the next round. And sometimes, and this is hilarious, I play with my friends. Like there are people I work with at the office who I know by name and we see each other the next day we run into a firefight, turn around like I'm the last guy standing. I'm like, where'd everybody go? And then we lose horribly. We're like massacred. I'm like, yeah, I didn't realize I was playing with a bunch of cowards. I know. Who's not got my back on this? Well, it kind of got hot in the kitchen. I'm like, and you turned. What happened to my brother's my keeper. Leave no man behind. Who are playing with right now. And they're like, all right, all right, we will do better. I'm like, do something. Fire your gun in the air. Just stand there with me and die. But when I turn around, everybody's gone. My body's falling dead. I'm like, where is everybody? Just see the backs of your boots. This is ridiculous. You guys. Let's continue on with the self feedback conversation. Joel.
- [39:40]
B
Okay, well, there is a part of what you're talking, though, with the whole gaming thing. There's a level of appropriate context, like situational context. And I thought when you were describing playing with some of the people at the office, I was like, oh, you're venturing into some dangerous territory. Because I do turn into a different person when I'm gaming. So some of the words that I may be using might not be so professional, might not be so kind. Now, that was a long time ago. I was gaming, I don't know, 10 years ago, I was gaming, like on the regular. Since then, what I've learned, though, is that the words you use, they shape how you feel, they shape how you see yourself, and they shape what you experience. But you have to have some level of nuance in how you're seeing this. So perhaps some foul language in a gaming context might be okay. But obviously, or hopefully obviously, for most of us, we understand that to speak like that at the office or to speak like that at clients, not. Okay, where do you see a lot of people messing up with context and feedback?
- [40:51]
A
The giver or the receiver?
- [40:53]
B
Let's start with the giver first and then switch over to the receiver. Because so far we've, I think, only have been talking about all of the giving side.
- [41:03]
A
To give really great feedback requires a lot of skill, intentionality. It requires some level of mastery of terminology and word usage. And it has to be given in a spirit of generosity, not to hurt the other person, not to impose your superiority or your experience over someone else. If you're doing it for that reason, go to a gym, hit a bag or something, but don't take it on other people because they're not a human punching bag. This is really important. So I think some professors, some art directors use this opportunity, this leverage of power, this lopsided leverage to exert their will over people, to kind of humiliate them and to embarrass them and to belittle them. I don't think that's healthy for you, the giver. It's definitely not healthy for the receiver. And so that's why the circle of people I would consider who are able to give very nuanced, deeply insightful feedback to be very, very small. A lot of people are just afraid of hurting people's feelings, so they give you some kind of. Kind of non statement. They do word salad, they say lots of things, but nothing. They're just tossing words around. You can't extract anything. It takes a lot of practice and learning to be able to give succinct, clear feedback. And it's not any different. Like, say, for example, you're going to fire somebody or you're giving someone a review because they want a promotion. And if that person walks away without a clear path forward, it is pretty typical that you are a person who doesn't understand how to give constructive feedback. A lot of it could be judging, A lot of it could be subjective where you're not giving them anything objective to sink their teeth into. And maybe that's a strategy so you don't have to agree to a pay raise or a promotion in title or additional responsibilities, what the person's looking for. So some of it's strategic, but I think most of the times it's because people are really either too much in their own head or in the other person's head. They're too concerned about what the other person might think or feel that they can't give them clear feedback or they're in their own head. Like, how is this person going to perceive me? Or I need to prove myself to this person and I'm going to say this confession, I was that person. So when I had to fire somebody before, I'm talking about my early to mid-20s and I had to let somebody go. Even contractors, not even employees, I had the hardest time telling them what I really felt, the thing that was really bothering me. So I would just make it about something else, like, it's not you, it's me. That's the cliched version. I didn't literally say that, but it's more like, I can't remember what it was like. Something like the style of what you're doing, we don't need anymore right now. So thanks for your help. When in fact they had done something that was probably trying to sow seeds of discontent within the team. Something much more egregious than your style isn't working for us. I've had some harsh conversations with people and over the years, through coaching with my business coach and mentor, Kier McLaren, I was able to learn how to say things in a way that was clear, direct, without being Hurtful. And it's a real skill.
- [44:09]
B
I think what you just brought up is pretty nuanced because the part about without being hurtful, there's some element of this that depends on the receiver. So on your end, you have no intention of being hurtful. And yet on the receiver side, especially if they are one of these more sensitive people or just have no experience with receiving critical feedback, they will perceive it as such. So I think perhaps what people might need to really take the time to think about for themselves and accept that you're never going to get it 100% right. There's no such thing. The thing that you can control is making sure that you stay in that spirit of generosity. Like what you just mentioned is that you are not in this to feed your own ego, to feel superior to other people, and that you are genuinely in this to help someone. Now, this whole thing with not being hurtful, you learned this, this is part of emotional and relational intelligence, is you consider the words that you're going to use and their impact on somebody else and what you know of that person. So for instance, if I say to you, Chris, that dude, that color of that shirt, it ain't working for me. It doesn't go with your skin tone. It doesn't complement the right undertones in your skin. I know I can say that and you'll be like, okay, or, or maybe if you're, you're like not having it, you'll just be like, well, I didn't ask for that feedback. And I'll be like, oh, you're right. Okay, sorry, my bad. So we, I think, have a more direct line of communication with each other than a lot of people do. But if I were to say this, to say, one of my clients, probably a no go. So again, the context, who is this client to me? Or who is this person to me? Do we have a relationship where they would want that feedback? And if they do want that feedback, what would be the packaging for it where they would actually receive it? And again, not being hurtful. I think the idea of being mean, because I think this is what a lot of people struggle with when they say they don't want to hurt somebody's feelings. So then they end up sugarcoating and then before you know it, there's. There's really no feedback there at all. Or they almost out outright lie, right? They give you feedback that's not really the feedback at all. And I think it would be helpful for people to like really sit there and consider the idea of being mean. So for me, the idea of being mean is to do or say something with the intention to inflict pain. That is being mean. And we all know it when we see it. But I think we so fear doing that to others that we don't actually really think about that. So sometimes we can cause pain unintentionally, but it wasn't in the spirit of meanness.
- [46:54]
A
Yeah, I want to say, like, without being hurtful, which is. Is your intention to hurt the person with your comments subconsciously, consciously, doesn't really matter. Was it your intention to hurt the person because you're having a bad day, you want to kick a dog or you want to choke a kitten, Whatever it is, you want to hurt somebody that moment because you want to feel like you're powerful again. And I want to go through this feedback because it's something that we can really zero in. If you had told me, in my opinion, given our relationship, I feel obligated to tell you that that color shirt isn't working with your skin tone, in my opinion, for these reasons, that is not a comment that's filled with a ton of judgment. It is your opinion. And as long as there's a relationship where we can tell each other things like that, it's usually not a problem. It wouldn't even faze me one bit if you had said that. Like on the scale of 1 to 10 in terms of hurdle meter, it's like 1. It's a nothing burger. If you said that color's ugly, that makes your skin look gross. Those are very judging, potentially hurtful statements that require no nuance. Or what were you thinking when you bought that shirt, Chris? Now it's accusatory and I see your eyes opening really wide, Jewel. But believe it or not, audit your life and the communication that you have on a day to day basis with people in your circle. Parents, siblings, spouse, partner, coworkers, peers, mentors. How often do they say one of the latter statements versus the former just because people are not very good at it? Mostly because we don't have a ton of examples in the real world where people are very articulate, nuanced and generous and caring enough with their statements that we now have what we would consider the norm. It's abnormal, actually, when we come across someone who is very articulate and gives nuanced feedback when asked in ways that aren't designed to hurt us. Now, if you are hurt and offended by the things I said, while I've exercised diligence in picking the right words and trying to construct feedback for you, that's on you. It's not on me. I wash my hands of that. I'm not in the business of controlling your feelings. I'm in the business of fulfilling what I believe are my obligations and duties and responsibility if I really care about somebody. And here's another common mistake. In the circle of social media, there are going to be tons of people, actually everybody on social media, who are going to give you their unsolicited opinion about whatever it is that you're doing. I don't welcome those. They don't really bother me so much. But they're kind of like, I don't know who you are, thinking you're going to tell me all these things I've not invited you to. And clearly you haven't gotten your stuff together. So I try to approach that from the lens of nonviolent listening, often swept over a skill set. People talk about nonviolent communication. Communication is both speaking and listening. So in my nonviolent listening, I say to myself, I think this person has projects they're unable to do. So rather than invest their time and energy into changing things that they can. They feel great sense of self when they tell other people and this to them must be a gift that they're giving to somebody. I try to listen to it through that lens and say, oh, okay, well, cool. I think you care. You have a different way of expressing how you care than I do. And that's okay. I mean, people on the Internet are telling me I should wear this. I shouldn't wear this. Not because they think I'm a clown, but because they're trying to improve me in their eyes. Or they say, you shouldn't use this accessory in your home furnishings. Or a light there would be great, Chris. And put on this filter whatever it is they want to say. And I just smile most of the time. If I'm having a bad day, I won't smile so much. And I might clap back because I always think you're good to dish it, you want to take some of it. And oftentimes I've told you this. What returns for me isn't always an equal measure of force than what is received. Meaning you throw one punch, I'm going to give you a Superman punch back. So just be careful sometimes. Okay? I'm saying if I'm having a not good day, it's like, I'm not here to be your doormat. I'm not here for you to dump whatever issues you have. Now, the biggest misconception about this is People who really, really care about you, who want to see you do really well in life, will communicate more directly than the people who don't. So when you ask them, how's my post, how's my campaign, how's my dress or my haircut, how are my shoes looking, whatever it is that you're asking, that they actually care enough to give you real feedback. So we often mistake the people who give us the flowery comments, the little pats on the back, the atta boys. Those people actually don't care about you much at all because they don't care enough to go out of their discomfort to tell you their real, truthful, honest opinion. They tell you a little white lie.
- [51:52]
B
I think it goes both ways, though, because if we're talking about someone takes on that potential discomfort to take the time to tell you something that they think might help you. But in return, there has to be some level of trust there, I think, because the number one reason I get from pretty much everybody I know, whenever I ask them, have you told them that? Have you talked to them about this? And they're like, no, they. They're not going to listen. Now, sometimes or a lot of times, I do think that these people are approaching it mainly from a place of fear. I'm like, but how do you know that? Like, how do you know that they won't listen? And then they'll bring up all of these past incidents. I'm like, okay, sure, that was those incidents, but how do you know right now that if you were to talk to them about this, that they won't listen? Most of the times you actually don't know. Because we don't know what lies in the future. All we can do is make our best educated guess based on what we know from the past. And what I see in coaching a lot of the times is that sometimes we extrapolate too far. We prejudge because we don't want to be hurt, we don't want to deal with that discomfort, that if we give somebody some uncomfortable feedback, that they're then going to lash out at us, which sometimes it can happen. So I think this is where it's really relevant, where your rule number one is, are you even asked to get feedback? It's like, if not, then just go into it knowing that the feedback being received poorly might be higher. Like, the chances of that might be a lot higher. But there is some level of trust, I think has to exist in the relationship for feedback to be handled.
- [53:34]
A
There's trust. But first of all, I have to care and then I have to look at risk. If you ask me and I tell you what is the risk to our relationship and would I rather just maintain the status quo or do we together grow to the next level in our relationship and depth and we hit different cusp from casual friends to good friends to deep friends to lifelong friends to I'm your brother, sister kind of thing. There's just different levels in which we wonder, is this the moment in time for us to see what level of friends we have in each other? And they're constantly being tested. For example, if you're in a state of need and you reach out to someone and you tell them you're very clear in your communication, I need you right now and I'm too busy, then, you know, they stay in the rung in which you have them at, they don't get to elevate to the next level. And we talked about this last time in terms of the themes of friends and how we consider friends, right? So we get to move you up or down. And so when I know someone's got my back, like really has got my back, and there's no limit to that, then you get to move into the inner circle. So I think about that a lot. People on the Internet say, Chris, you're a design, blah, blah, blah in this space and I need your feedback. I'm like, oh, nuanced, detailed, critical, valuable feedback is not easy to give. You're asking for a much bigger thing than you think you are. You're asking for a considerable amount of my time, energy and focus when you really just want. That's awesome, dude. And if you really think about that, how does that serve anybody? I can make a robot and I should make a robot. It's a compliment robot. Just like ask compliment bot what you want and I'll say, you're doing amazing. This is fantastic. You're so good, incredible work, friend. And if that does something for you, more power to you. But I think when you realize what really good feedback requires, requires some context, intention requires looking at the entire scope, understanding the problem, and then being able to sit down, write or communicate that somehow it's a big ask. And that's why I also don't do a ton of portfolio reviews anymore. I used to do them all the time. It's like, it's too big of an ask.
- [55:50]
B
It is. And I think it touches upon this, this idea. I remember I wrote a post years ago and I, it was sort of like one of those quote style posts and it said Feedback is a gift. You are asking to give my time and my energy and my discernment to this to tell you something in the hopes that you might grow, and then for you to shit on it, or to be defensive or to have this in the guise of where you're actually just looking for a compliment. It ain't cool, man. It's not cool.
- [56:24]
A
So most of the times I just tell people, awesome job. I don't know you like that.
- [56:28]
B
So you said something earlier, which I think everything we're talking about now kind of circles around this. You mentioned this concept of nonviolent listening. Can I read you this post I found on Reddit? Because I feel like this is so many people out there. So this person says they know that having your own work criticized is extremely important to grow in any aspect, but they're absolutely terrified by it. And this person then says, if I get any positive feedback, I think I didn't earn it, or that I'm being patronized. If I get negative feedback in any way, shape or form, I'm extremely discouraged and get too depressed to put in more effort to fix my mistakes, which just leads to more results. And so therefore, they're saying that if they get anything other than nice or cool, they spiral in either direction. The part that you mentioned about nonviolent listening, I think plays heavily into this, as well as this whole thing of assigning value. What do you think would be most useful for someone to know if they fall into this state, which I suspect is a lot of people?
- [57:38]
A
I think you have a big choice to make, a big decision to make. Do you prize feeling comfortable more than you do genuine growth? And you just have to make that choice. And most people will choose the former rather than the latter. They'll just stay in that state of comfort of never knowing. And that says to me a little bit about the level of seriousness and dedication they have for their craft. If you're a writer, singer, a musician, artist, designer, illustrator, animator. The only way I know how to get better is to seek the opinion of someone better than you. And for them to tell you their truth, whether they can do it violently or non violently, it doesn't even matter. Because every time you discover something that doesn't work, you reduce the number of variables down by one. So I think Thomas Edison had said that he didn't fail in creating the light bulb. He just found a thousand ways that didn't work. And it was carbonized paper. That was the thing that was the best filament. He tried every material until he finally came upon carbonized paper, I think, or hemp or something, something like that. That was the filament that was going to give the right kind of light that didn't burn itself out. So it's like, I haven't failed. I just found a thousand ways it didn't work. And so let's just look at every creative endeavor as there are a thousand ways for this not to work. Every time you learn one way that doesn't work, you reduce that number down so that when you go to do something, you know about the eight or ten ways in which it's going to work. And when you step out and you're like, why does this sound good? Why does this look right? Because, you know, it's lacking contrast in shape, size, color, texture, rhythm, whatever. You'll figure that out.
- [59:28]
B
So I think what you're getting at here is the concept of neutrality. This is something that I stress really heavily in my work with people, because what you've given us here as an example are these two statements that Edison made, or whoever it was that said, this thing is that I didn't fail. I just found a thousand different ways that this didn't work. The word fail is one of those examples, I think, of judging or even assigning value. And what I see a lot of people doing is they will take something and they will make it mean something about themselves. Whereas if you tell me that this podcast thumbnail cover looks a little bit meme style, I'm like, oh, okay. And then you tell me, maybe you should draw some inspiration from book covers. I'm like, oh, okay. Thanks for the idea, man. I'm not sitting here thinking I'm trash because my podcast thumbnail cover looks stupid. And obviously you also didn't say stupid. But when we think about nonviolent listening, that is literally what people are hearing. You tell them this, isn't it? And they're like, I'm trash. I'm such a failure. So that would be one of the first principles I would say, from my point of view, listening to you about nonviolent listening is to try and listen from a neutral point of view. And so what is neutral? It's what is factually true. So to call yourself a failure, I don't think is actually provable. A lot of people will argue that it is, But I'm like, would you call Edison a failure because he failed a thousand times? No, he just found a thousand different ways this didn't work. So when I think about feedback and people giving you feedback in any form, whether it's about your work or how you communicate or how you're dressing, they are simply trying to tell you that what you want versus what you have, the what you have, this ain't it. And there are other avenues to potentially explore to get closer to what you're trying to get to.
- [61:26]
A
Yeah, I think this idea of nonviolent communication or neutrality can be traced back to just general principles of stoicism. Seeing things for what they are and not for what you want them to be, understanding that you have strong cognitive biases and that will skew something and make it very subjective about what you're going through versus what it really is. If you could practice that, you'll be fine. And I suspect the reason why there aren't so many high performers in any given field is because they've been closed off to real critical feedback. They prefer, or they continue to choose unconsciously to stay in a place of comfort versus real growth and learning through the discomfort of hearing critical feedback.
- [62:10]
B
So I think the follow up question here that just begs to be asked because so many people ask me this is, then how do I get out of that?
- [62:20]
A
You decide one day you prefer growth over comfort and you commit to that and you seek out the very best coaches, consultants, teachers, mentors, whatever person in your life who is where you would like to be, and then they give you what they can give you. And most of the times it's going to be quite violent communication, but you'll still grow a lot if you just put on that armor. If you can listen nonviolently, it won't matter what people say. And people have said very unpleasant, not nice things to us in our comments all the time, every day. And the ongoing discussion I have with Trigo, who manages a lot of our social media, is, please do not respond. He goes, I can't. These fools, they're so stupid. I got like, no, you're responding violently to what I consider a cry for help. Some people write, this video is too long. So stupid. It's like they're meandering all over the place. You're really bad editors. They'll say something like that.
- [63:22]
B
So let's say somebody sees a comment just like that on their channel or their social media, what is the violent form of listening? What would they hear?
- [63:31]
A
Well, they'd hear the words that were written and they would respond to it. They would react to it like, you're so stupid. What have you done? I've checked out your account and look, you have four followers. And what is this Learn how to use a camera and learn to speak English, because you have, like, grammatical and technical problems with what you wrote here. And you dummy, you misquoted this person. It's this other person. That's pretty typical violent ways of responding to that.
- [63:54]
B
Okay, then there's you apparent Mr. Buddha on the other end where you read this comment. You're like, oh, this is a cry for help. I can see that a lot of times, but that's usually not going to be my first response. So other than that, which I do think would be an extreme reach for a lot of people, what do you think would be the most nonviolent, factual way of interpreting that statement?
- [64:17]
A
The ideal way of interpreting what was said is not something that I live to every single day. Sometimes I want to have fun. Like, gloves off, son. Let's go. I just want to be very clear about this. I want to get right in the weeds with you, and let's. Oh, you got razor blades? I got a knife, Machete. Let's go.
- [64:34]
B
Oh, my God. Chris. Here to end the fight once and for all?
- [64:37]
A
I'm here. Yeah. You want fingers? Not anymore. Not after today. Okay, so the way that you can read a comment like that is strip out all of the judging language and see what's there. And sometimes the words aren't literally there. It's the subtext of what they're trying to say, which is sharper. Editing would be more beneficial to me right now. And as a fan of the channel, I think more of your audience would enjoy this and your channel would grow. That's the most nonviolent way of hearing that.
- [65:07]
B
Oh, that's interesting. I think the way that I break this kind of statement down for a lot of people is they didn't like this. They didn't like how it was edited, and that's okay. That is their opinion.
- [65:21]
A
The problem with that interpretation is it dismisses the entire comment. What do you mean by saying that's just your opinion? It's almost like a weird clapback. If you work really hard and you look underneath all that stuff like, oh, it's too long. What does that mean? It needs to be shorter. Why? Because I want the important parts, and there's just too much fluff. And their prescriptive solution is use better editors. And what is editing? Editing is finding all the gold and only showing you the gold. I know enough about storytelling and editing. And I look at that, I'm like. And I'm checking in with myself, like, that video is long. Do we meander? Let me Watch this again. Let me see. I'm like, oh, my God. Yes, they're right. More often than not, they are right. They're just not very good at communicating their opinions. And so if you routinely say, that's your opinion, and I'm saying with a little sass now, right, just to show you kind of maybe the truth behind that comment, which is everybody's got an a hole and an opinion, and I don't want to see either. So therefore, you're in the bucket of nothingness. Remember, I'm on the quest of continuing to find ways that don't work. So I know what does work. So in every aspect, whether it be about playing pool or playing billiards, depending on where you come from, to designing a logo, to writing a sales letter, I want to learn. My primary directive here, speaking like Star Trek language, is to learn as a human. And the best way I know how to learn is not through my success, but it's through my failures.
- [66:48]
B
I just want to say that I said that's their opinion, as in, that does not mean something about you as a person. This is their opinion that this is how something should be done, or this is how they like something, which everybody has one of those. You all have your preference.
- [67:03]
A
So the question for you, Joel, not to put this under a magnifying glass, but if everything we express is our opinion, since we're not God, we're not omnipotent and omniscient, then of course it's their opinion. So what is the point? Like, people are like, I'll ask people a question. What do you like tacos or pizza? You're like, oh, you want my opinion? Like, is there anybody else in the room? Is there ghosts here? You have another personality. I do not know. Of course I'm asking you for your opinion. And then they'll say things like, well, my opinion is, of course, because your mouth hole is moving. I know it's your opinion. So when somebody writes something like, well, that's your opinion opinion, we haven't added anything to that. We know it's their opinion. So I would encourage everyone to say, like, what is there to learn from this? And sometimes it's hot garbage. It really is. They drop the number two on front of your doorstep and there's really nothing there. Like, it can't use this fertilizer because it's completely toxic, right? And now I have to clean up your mess. Figuratively, literally, I gotta clean it up. So just remember, everybody has an opinion. And everything they say, for the most Part, it's not factual, it's just an opinion. So now we have to dig much deeper and try much harder to extract the nugget from what they're saying. And sometimes there's zero. Just be aware. You can try as you might. And what we can do though is we can read some comments and we can try this out. Is that okay?
- [68:26]
B
Yeah. So just one last thing. Me saying what I did is me talking to a client. This is not how I would respond. In the comments, I remind people that whatever someone says to them is an opinion. Because I observed that a lot of people do receive comments or they think certain things are facts when they're not. So it's a reminder.
- [68:49]
A
Here's where we go. We say it's an opinion. What can you learn from it? To just flip it? Like, how can this be a benefit to you?
- [68:58]
B
Yeah, what do you want to take from it?
- [69:00]
A
Yeah, and I like to do this. This is a mental game I play. If the person is really mean spirited and wants to hurt me, the best vengeance that I can serve to them is actually to use their negative, toxic spewing of feedback and actually improve myself. They'll never know, but I'll know. And it feels really good. So it's almost like if somebody shoots you with electricity to shock you and you're like, oh, they didn't know I was a battery. When someone tries to bury you, you know that they didn't realize you were a plant. So bury me, shock me, see what happens. And I enjoy that. Like, I want to get into that kind of stuff.
- [69:45]
B
I gotta say this though, man, not everybody, or it's not even not everybody. I would say probably 99.9% of the people out there are not going to respond to a comment or rudeness or meanness, whether perceived or real. They're not going to respond like how you just described. And I'm like, that would be amazing to treat it like. Oh yeah, your comments, they just charge me up, they help me. So thank you.
- [70:10]
A
Okay, here's a comment, right? This is under the graphic underscore design Reddit is Christo a fraud. So the guy goes to say something like this. I assume it's a guy, but I don't know who it is. I'm no troll. That's how you know you're a troll. Like, you're like, I'm no flanderer, but okay, so you always know, like, I don't mean to hurt you, just being honest. So I'm no troll. I don't make Rude comments for attention. I'm just curious because this guy seems to be pushing this brand with no real substance. Wherever I can see him do actual design, he doesn't seem very good in his role plays. He comes off as arrogant and full of it. His design critiques are mediocre. He criticizes other designers for a low percentage of engagement among followers on Instagram, Twitter, et cetera. But if you look at his social media page, he has the exact same problem. Am I crazy or is this guy a fraud? There's a lot of very violent judging statements in there. So let's listen to this. Let's just listen to it for what it says, not for what we want to do with nonviolent listening. And then I'll tell you how to listen to this in a nonviolent way, perhaps. So what did you hear? Do I need to read it again or did you get it?
- [71:18]
B
I think I got it. I also pulled it up. Well, if I just summarize what he's saying, he thinks you ain't got the goods. He says you don't have the substance and that he thinks the quality of your own designs and your critiques of other people, they're not that great.
- [71:33]
A
I think that's what he's saying. He's saying based on the work that I've been able to find, wherever that might be. And I think he's just staying on what is posted on social media versus, like the portfolio company website. And so based on his due diligence, he's ascertained upon him himself that I have no real design chops and that all the critique I give is mediocre. And he doesn't say this, but like, generic and whatever. So he's trying to wonder if am I a real person or not? That's all in the nonviolent listening way. Why don't I give that to you first, Joel? How can we listen to this nonviolently? It's hard on this one because he's making a lot of personal attacks, very judging statements.
- [72:18]
B
I think from the nonviolent listening first, I would say that what I gave you, the summary already, is kind of the nonviolent way of interpreting what he said. But I would say at a very high level, he doesn't get it. Like, he does not get what other people see in you.
- [72:34]
A
My nonviolent way of listening to this is. And I've read the rest of his message. I'm uncertain of my own skills and ability. This person who has a lot of engagement and followers doesn't seem to speak in the way that I'm comfortable with. Help me understand if he's somebody who's legitimate or not. That's the most nonviolent way I can hear.
- [72:57]
B
So if we're going in that direction, then I would say there are probably threads or undercurrents of, here's this guy who has certain skills and a way of communicating that I don't get and that I am not comfortable with. And I don't understand why people think he's better than me, perhaps, or better than other people even. Even if it's not about himself.
- [73:21]
A
Yeah. So this is clearly not a thank you message. This is a cry for help. And so when we look at something like this, we have to assume it's a cry for help. So if you read the first few sentences in his post here on Reddit, he's like, I'm a teacher. Well, I'm a teacher. We should have mutual respect for each other. But we don't. But he's always been an artist, so there's something that he's defending himself already. I'm a teacher, but I'm really an artist. Like, there's no ability in teaching. Friend, my aunt asked me today, I don't understand what you do. I said, I'm a teacher. She goes, oh, I say that proudly. I said, but if you want to understand the greater nuance of it, I'm happy to share that with you. And he goes on to say, like, he's recently teaching himself. So this means he's new and he's learning Illustrator, Photoshop and Indesign, et cetera. So he's learning technical tools at this point. So that's step one of on your path towards being a designer. I don't know how. And he clearly says, I'm not a graphic designer. So there's in the first two sentences, I'm not this. I'm this. But I'm really an artist. So I'm not a designer, I'm a teacher. But I'm really an artist at heart. So there's something in there. Right? And you know what? He's teaching for yearbook group, which I started at my school. So he must be teaching, I think, at junior high or high school, because I think once you get into college, they don't do yearbooks anymore. Maybe they do. Okay, you're shaking your head now. And so this is a person who's really confused by lots of things. And there is this general reaction to people who see people who are doing well in life, whether it be financially, professionally, whatever it is, their first reaction is they must be doing something not right for them to achieve this thing. Because if they are doing everything above board and I'm above board, why aren't I achieving the same results? This goes across industries. If someone is a coach who's doing really well, oh, they're just a scammer. It's the most easy, dismissive thing to be able to reset your world so that things still align the way that you hope them to align. That's the real thing. And so that's usually a lot of the comments that I get. And thankfully there are plenty of people who will come in and say things objectively that will then come to defend you. And that's the most upped voted comment is no, he's the real deal, which I don't really care.
- [75:49]
B
Well, I think the most upvoted comment from what I'm reading, the guy says you should try and interact with him. Is that the comment you're talking about?
- [75:57]
A
Yeah. Yeah, okay, right. Seek ro.
- [75:59]
B
Yeah, I actually think this is a great comment in how he responded because it wasn't to add fuel to the fire. And he speaks from his own personal experience with you in whatever form that's been. And he says as a designer he provides a lot of value to me. He doesn't come into the comments section to fire back and be like, yo bro, you're stupid, you don't know what you're talking about. Which is, I think how a lot of people do respond when I look at your comment section. I will say this too. Whenever I see someone posting this sort of thing on any social media, like is this person like legit? Is this person a fraud? Fraud? It depends on the spirit of how it's been written. So there are people who are genuinely asking, is this person legit? Because I'm considering buying a course or a program from this person and I don't want to be scammed, right. Or have other people gotten results. So again, from a place of safety. But this kind of post, I question the intention or the purpose behind it because I'm like, I don't really see it achieving anything other than a way to. It's like a double sided sword, double edged sword. It seems to come under the guise of investigation, but it really feels like it's intended to tear you down.
- [77:18]
A
I think there are a lot of scared, struggling, insecure, meaning to do well, but for whatever reason having been able to figure it out. And the easiest thing for them to do is hate and there's large groups of people who hate on me. I'm like, that's okay. I understand that for many people, the old guard especially I represent the antithesis of everything they stand for. They're like the indie bands who want to struggle and feel like it's virtuous to struggle. And when an indie band makes it through and they become commercialized, they've now instantly sold out. And I'm here to tell you I'm proud to be a sellout because I want to sell out stadiums, I want to sell out my courses, I want to sell out my coaching programs. And if people prefer to be relatively unknown, work in the darkness, and maintain their artist integrity in air quotes, albeit, more power to you. More power to you. I don't hate on you. To each their own. And whatever you want to do, if it makes you happy, if you're making decisions that support your values, your beliefs and all that stuff, more power to.
- [78:20]
B
You if it makes you happy. I think that's a key thing to take away from this conversation, for me at least, because when I think about feedback and the spirit has been delivered, even if it is delivered in a mean or destructive fashion, I'm always questioning myself, do I want to stay where I am, or do I want this thing that I say that I want? And that's always been the struggle for me. So it used to be very early on for me, because that was what was the example set for me by my parents. There was a lot of negative self talk. So the feedback from me to myself was very negative. It's like, God, you're so stupid. Why can't you ever get things right? Or, of course that's ugly. Like, this is how it should be done. So the thinking and the self talk was already in that judging and assigning value, as. As in, you didn't get this right, therefore you're worthless. So that's been one of the biggest shifts in my life, is at a certain point, I would say, even before you decide that you want to grow, you have to decide, like, how you want to talk to yourself. You have to understand, like, what helps you get going. And for me, I realized whenever my parents spoke to me like that and said I was stupid or like, you know, why are you so. Blah, blah, blah. And it just made me feel horrible. So I would say my first decision was, I will no longer speak to myself that way because I get enough of that in the other people in my life, like my family. And then I remember when we were doing those clubhouse calls. And I felt such an insane amount of pressure. For some reason, I think I almost felt like I was anointed by God by being chosen to be on your clubhouse Mod squad along with Martha and Lola. And I felt like I had to design amazing clubhouse rooms. And I reached a point where it was just no longer fun to have those conversations because I was so worried about the metrics and so worried about performing and how are people gonna feel and are people gonna get value out of this? And it would just make me crumble. Like, I would just shut down. And so every time I would reset and just ask myself whether it was the clubhouse room, it was showing up on Instagram or TikTok every single time. My question to myself has been, you say you want this. Do you actually want it? Or are you just saying that? And if you really want it, then what is the work you need to put in? What is that feedback you need to implement? Because we know that you ain't there yet. How do you get there?
- [80:55]
A
I was sitting there searching on the web, something that you and I have talked about before. I just want to make sure that I retread old things that were incorrect. And there's that expression, iron sharpens iron or iron strengthens iron. Right? We talked about it. It's like, oh, jewel, did you know this? Because I've watched Forge and Fire. I actually did a double take on this and just searched through Google to find out how this process works. Iron, as you may know, is a relatively soft material. It's through heating, repeated heating in charcoal, that carbon is introduced into iron. And it's the pounding of impurities and forging the carbon into the iron that makes it steel, a much stronger, more desirable, more valuable material. So maybe we all can look at ourselves as iron, kind of soft, not as valuable, heavy sometimes. And that through proper feedback and feedback, the right kind of feedback is like carbon. And it's going to require a little bit of force and heat and that pressure, the iron striking iron, that folds carbon into the iron, or that makes it really strong. And that's how I look at feedback. Like, feedback is a gift when it's delivered properly. Not all feedback is a gift, because some feedback is just an insult disguised as feedback. So let's separate that from this, right? That person's comment on Reddit wasn't designed as feedback. For me, it started with a lot of suppositions, like, this person doesn't know anything. It's a lot of value statements. And the person is even saying, I think despite Where I'm at in my life and my career, I still am going to judge and impose my level of superiority over this person. And in the same breath, describe me as arrogant. I think that's the definition of arrogance, friend. An outsized belief of your own abilities, imposing your will, your opinion onto others. Go ahead, Joel.
- [82:48]
B
Well, I was just going to add on. It's doing those things to build on the belief that you are then better than other people. And that is what I think a lot of people do get wrong about you because I've never heard you say that you think you're better than anyone. And in fact, you're the opposite. We've had past episodes where you've literally said you. You don't believe you're better than anybody else out there.
- [83:12]
A
I don't. As a human, I'll smoke you in design.
- [83:15]
B
Well, it kind of goes to this thing that I do believe, that the only people who mistake confidence for arrogance are the people who don't have it.
- [83:22]
A
I think there's a strong reaction to people who have a belief in themselves, who carry themselves a certain way, and they mistakenly label that as arrogance. When the people who are really arrogant are also are mislabeled because they're really insecure and they use certain language and posturing to present a more confident self. The typical confident, arrogant person that we see on TV is the bully. The bully smashing people. It's just putting people in their place. And we know that this is a damaged human being who wants to exert their power and will over other people. Usually people who can't defend themselves, to remind themselves that their words and that they're strong and powerful when in fact they know they're not, subconsciously they know they're not. And then we mislabel those people. There's a handful of people who are arrogant in that they've achieved a few things and they automatically assume because they've done a few things that everything is great and they know everything. That is the real form of arrogance, an overestimation of one's own ability. But like, say, for example, let's just say I've put in 25,000 hours in sailing and I've been certified. I'm a certified instructor. I teach sailing. I've sailed over a million miles over the open ocean. I've won competition. So if I say I'm a great sailor, the person who doesn't understand this will say, oh, what an arrogant. A hole. Like, no. That is an accurate estimation of one's ability as it relates to sailing, this is what they confuse. So if somebody says I'm a genius and they actually have a genius iq, which is the measurement of being a genius, that is an accurate statement. But when someone's a fool and says they're a genius, and it's usually ignorant people who say they're a genius, sometimes a very, very stable genius, that then you're like, oh, I believe that's arrogance or delusion. Yeah, it's the same. Jewel, is there anything else? We want to talk about this because as we've gone down the deep whole.
- [85:20]
B
Of feedback, I don't think so. I think probably people have had a good dose of how to think about feedback.
- [85:28]
A
So let's end it on a high energy moment here. What are the key takeaways for you in this discussion or what you want people to walk away with? What is the point of having this conversation?
- [85:38]
B
The point for me of having this conversation is so that they can have a better grasp of feedback and what purpose it achieves if you go about it the right way and what elements need to be present for feedback. So for example, when I was listening to you, it seems like it is to come into it with the spirit of truth and generosity, taking into account the nature of the relationship and then to use non judging, nonviolent, non value statements to deliver this idea to them. On the opposite side, for someone to receive feedback, and I see this all over the place, that fear of receiving critical feedback, I would say is because you already come into it thinking that this is bad, that constructive AKA critical feedback is somehow bad for you and your identity. And that is where again, the idea of nonviolent listening will come into play. And you need to stop thinking about it as this feedback, meaning something bad about you. It just means there is a gap to be closed. If this is the place that you're trying to get to, then these are certain steps that can help you get there because you ain't there yet and you yourself, you know that.
- [86:52]
A
Well, thank you, Jewel. I first met you on Clubhouse and you developed many different reputations. But one of, I think one of your big moments was when you were able to summarize rooms and long ass conversations into succinct takeaways. And I appreciate you for that. I want to honor that and I want to just point that out here.
- [87:13]
B
Thanks man.
- [87:14]
A
Well, once again we've come to the end of our podcast. I want to thank my ongoing guest and co host, Jewel Kim. Jewel, how do people get in touch with you if they want to learn more about you.
- [87:26]
B
Find me on LinkedIn. Look me up. Jewel. Kim. Jewel. Spelled J, U, L, E. Kim, K, I, M. Thank you.
- [87:33]
A
Take care, everybody. See you next time.