B (2:44)

I'm going to say back in the.

A (2:46)

80S, maybe 1954, for the first season of the Tonight Show.

B (2:50)

Oh, okay. It goes back there.

A (2:52)

And the man on the street format is used to generate billions and billions of views. You were on Simon Squibb that he uses it. School of Hard Knocks has generated a billion views doing it. Alex Stemp does it for photography. So that format has been around for decades before social media, and it's used today to have success. Why? Because it's a repeatable structure that's proven to work. It's a storytelling mechanism and that's why we were talking about that last time. It allows people to engage in this type of structure that's proven to work.

B (3:28)

Okay, let's break it down for people. Outside of the obvious words person on the street, maintenance man or woman on the street, what are the components that make it work?

A (3:37)

So the first one there is. So again, so you're doing man on the street, you're approaching people, asking him, well, how much do you make for an hour? So there's an inherent tension that is built when you're approaching somebody because the person doesn't know that's watching. Are you going to get rejected? Are you going to get yelled at? Are they going to throw a fit? You don't know the dynamics that's going to happen. And a lot of success in storytelling in social media is happening on the subconscious mind. So in those first few seconds, because you're out in the street, because you're approaching strangers, there's this inherent conflict that could arise or is arising as that interaction happens.

B (4:14)

So there's tension. We don't know what's going to happen. And there are a lot of formats where guys try to pick up girls, girls try to pick up guys, and it's awkward and it's weird. And it's kind of a social human experiment that we get to watch unfold. Some of it is really literally random and some of it is actually pre programmed or it's been prearranged. Especially the ones where they accidentally bump into somebody famous. Like that's really not going to happen. Just everybody needs to know that. Sorry, spoiler warning here. Okay, so there's some tension, there's some Conflict. What else do you need to have for it to work?

A (4:45)

One of the big elements is the reaction of the person that you're interacting with. You're kind of going on this emotional journey with them and how they're reacting to the story that's being unfolded. So, for example, in your format, you're asking people, how much do they make an hour? And through that, you're also educating them and sharing what we call a perspective shift. You're shifting their perspective on how much money they could earn or a different way of thinking about how much money they could earn. The same thing with Simon Squibb. His is, you know, what is your dream? And he takes the people on this massive perspective shift of thinking about, well, why haven't I pursued this dream? Why haven't I gone in this direction or with my life, my career, my business? So it allows that that natural kind of moment to happen of seeing that reaction of the person being like, hmm, that's interesting. I hadn't thought about it that way. And then also, if you do it correctly, the viewer is going on that emotional journey with you. Because again, in your example, you're not just educating the person that you're interviewing, you're educating the viewer on how they can think about what is their worth, how do they value their time, the work that they do. And Simon Squibbs, what is your dream? It's again, it's getting people to think differently about how they pursue their dreams, their career goals, and things of that nature.

B (6:07)

Okay, so you ask the question, and then the audience gets to reflect on themselves. I think Simon's question is great because there's so many opportunities, like, will they take him up on the offer? Will they even talk to him? And why wouldn't they? Because here's a person who's going to help you do your dream. All they have to do is be brave enough to do it. And then there's the part about, will they show up and did he just waste his money? And what kind of crazy person gives people money to fulfill their own dreams? There's a lot of things working really well with that. Now for full disclosure. I've been sitting around thinking, I want to do some street stuff because I want to work on my improv handling situations I cannot control. You gave me the prompt. The prompt was ask people, how much do you charge an hour? The question for you is, why did you tell me to ask that question?

A (6:51)

Because your most viral video is about charging for the hour. So that was the first thing that came to Mind. In addition, there's a lot of conflict and weight in that question. Because just asking a random person, like, how much do you get paid an hour? Like, there's an inherent conflict, like, is that person going to answer? And you can even see it in their facial expressions, like, why is this person asking that? Question number two is it gives you an amazing opportunity to take people on a journey, to teach them a lesson about valuing themselves. Not just valuing their time or how much they charge, but them as an individual person. There's a lot of weight to that specific question that can have a meaningful impact on the viewer. And I think that that's like an important distinction is like you said, can anybody go viral? Well, why do most people not go viral? Why do most people not have success with social media? It's because their purpose is all messed up. Like, what is the main purpose for most people? Creating content? It's, I want to generate more leads, I want to generate more revenue, I want to sell my product. I want to get them to do something. But the reality is, is that's a massive disconnect of why people go to social media. People go to social media because they want to build a connection with a person with a piece of content. They want to go on an emotional journey. So in terms of creating content, you have to separate what your goals are and put yourself in the viewer. You have to think about, what is the actual effect that I want to have on this viewer? What do I want them to feel, what do I want them to think, what do I want them to kind of process through, through what they're watching. And the moment that you do that, your chances of success increase significantly. And going back to your question, well, why do we ask how much get charged an hour? Because that is taking people on a journey. We want them at the end of that video, the effect to be like, I can see a different way that I can value myself as an individual or value my work in a different way. And that's a really powerful emotion. That's a really powerful perspective shift.

B (9:02)

Okay, a couple different things. Like you said, I think a lot of people do want to go viral and they go and make content to go and sell more stuff. And I believe you're saying that that's not a great way to use social media because no one's showing up to read your ad. And you're not that creative to make an ad that goes viral. You're not shy day, you're not FCB or somebody like that. But I can't tell you how many people I talk to. I'm sure you have a similar challenge working with your clients in your community. That's ultimately what they want to do it for. They want to get more leads. So how do you get them off that mindset?

A (9:35)

Yeah, so the way that, and it is kind of counterintuitive. It's, it's. People look at social media as their website, as their profile, as their website, their content posts are their ads. But again, nobody logs onto social media saying, I want to see a great ad. So what do we do with that? Well, social media, like the true success comes from getting people to know, like, and trust you. If people know like and trust you, they automatically want to take that next step with you. So if you think about like, here's an analogy is like some random stranger comes up to you on the street and says, hey, can I borrow 20 bucks, I left my wallet at home. 99% of people are going to say no or just walk past that person. But if a good friend, somebody you know, says, hey, I lost my wallet at home, I need money to get home, can you lend me 20 bucks? Of course you're going to do that. Why? Because you have a relationship with them. And that's kind of the distinction between building an audience, building a relationship versus just running ads or running a commercial through paid advertising. So building an audience, you cultivate that relationship and automatically people want to take that next step. And that's where massive revenue comes from. You look at like the biggest people, the biggest brands in the world, whether it's like Kylie Jenner or Mr. Beast, like Mr. Beast, a prime example, he built a relationship with his audience over 10 years and then ultimately he built Feastables into a billion dollar brand. And people wanted to support that. His fans love it. Not because the product is the best product in the world, it's because they want to support them. Same thing with Kylie Jenner. She didn't spend years and years just posting ads and ads and ads. She built that relationship with the audience to then build a billion dollar brand. So the reality is, if you want to succeed in today's world, if you want to succeed on social media, you have to realize that people are not logging onto these platforms to find an ad to see a great product shot. They don't want to see a shot of your vitamin supplement or your real estate business. They want to connect with a piece of content. They want to feel something. The reality is the world that we live in today, there's over a billion Pieces of content uploaded to social media every day. You need to find a way to stand out. And no, that is not about selling your product. You need to tell a story that connects with their emotions, connects with them as a human being that will allow you to. To build that trust, build that relationship where they ultimately want to take that next step with you. So, again, focus on getting people to know, like, and trust you through your content, through the stories you tell, and then the sales will come in. But I'm telling you, if you treat your social media profile like it's your website and just keep posting product shots and discount codes and things of that nature, you will ultimately fail time and time again.

B (12:30)

Okay, let's continue on man on the Street. So hopefully everybody can pay attention because we're weaving in and out of the conversation as there's a format. So Brennan's like, hey, your most viral piece of content is talking about value. And then you said something to me. I think your gift to the world is to help people understand their real value. That's why you gave me that question. My pushback to you immediately was, I don't do that. I don't want people to charge hourly. So why would I ask him that question? You didn't say this, but it felt like you said it. You're like, shut up. Just do what I told you to do. I'm like, okay, okay. And the Internet was a little bit surprised because they watched that episode on YouTube and then they see these. These videos months later on Instagram. Like, he did it. He did it. He followed through. I'm like, I'm a person of my word and like a good student. I just do what I'm told. I didn't try to change the phrase, which is a mistake a lot of people make. You don't have a coach or somebody who understands this space really well, and then only to get their help and then spit on it by not doing it. So I did it, and we posted a couple of videos, and I. I enjoyed it very much. I felt Legal was going to do well, and it did really well. Here's the shocker one, the one that it would taki more because I'm like, hey, I'm doing this thing. Let's try it. And we're both, like, super weird about it because we know each other and trying not to be all weird, and we do it. Now, if I remember the story correctly, and I'm going to say this part, don't let facts get in the way of a good story. So Drigo shut up. We're just going to tell the story the way I'm going to tell it. And the way I tell it is Drigo sends me to cut. He goes, I don't think this is a good cut. What do you want to do with this? I'm like, post it. Who knows? That is our highest performing man in the street. I think last time I checked, it was over 800,000 views. I don't even think it was good. And there's so many different weird comments to this about his pants, pyramid schemes and all kinds of weird stuff. These are the unpredictable responses of humans. And Taki has such a great sense of humor about it. He don't care either. We just put it out there. So why do you think that worked?

A (14:31)

Well, I think that first off, the awkwardness that you felt probably came off on screen and that creates tension.

B (14:39)

You're like, okay, awkwardness.

A (14:41)

Yeah, the awkwardness creates tension. And it creates like, what is happening here? What is this story? What's unfolding? But also I think what was his response? Because I remember seeing it and it was a pretty eye opening response. I think that there was a big perspective shift that Taki presented, which he always does because he's a great communicator. But I think it was again, that perspective shift of how he views charging per hour was the other element of it. But I think that that awkwardness, that tension, and also like you say the pants, that's a pattern interrupt, is like people are dressing differently. They're having this conversation about money. Those variables come into play. But the interesting thing is I don't know that humans are that unpredictable. I think they are kind of predictable.

B (15:27)

A bite. What do you mean?

A (15:28)

Well, again, it's the reason man on the street works. So the way that I look at social media is and spent the past 20 years doing it is there's these repeatable structures, these repeatable patterns of how you communicate that work time and time again. Man on the street is just one of them. And I'm not saying to go do man on the Street. I tried man on the street, right? I was like, it's not the right fit for me.

B (15:51)

Because we talk about this last time on air. Yeah, I think so.

A (15:54)

I'll do it again. But yeah, I burn myself out because I'm an introvert. Like me, stopping random people on the street is not a very comfortable thing. And after doing it for like two, two and a half hours, because you have to go through a lot of people to get the good ones, it's not like every person you stop works.

B (16:07)

Well, pause. Let's pause right there. We're both introverts. Maybe I'm an Amber ambivert. I'm not sure. I've been tested twice. I'm an introvert. Have you been tested?

A (16:16)

Yes.

B (16:17)

You're clearly an introvert.

A (16:18)

Yes.

B (16:19)

Okay, so it's kind of interesting because you kind of said, chris, I'll tell you what to do, but don't do it. It won't work for you and you won't like it. I'm like, no, it will work. We'll see what happens. I. I'm gonna make this work because I'm committed to this. Every video we've recorded, we posted every single one. That means we haven't recorded that many because we have a little backlog. There's like three or four more that we're gonna release. But I enjoy it a lot. So what was it about it that just was so painful for you?

A (16:45)

Well, you also did in a different environment and I don't know what it was like, but I went on the streets of London. So first off, London, most people don't wanna, like, sit there and talk to you and then you're running around. I think you were at a conference when you did it.

B (16:59)

Yes, I was.

A (17:00)

Yeah.

B (17:00)

So I tried selling myself for success, not for failure. Yeah, I. I did.

A (17:04)

Which is smart.

B (17:05)

I did a vidcon.

A (17:05)

Yeah.

B (17:06)

People are used to be on camera. Yeah.

A (17:08)

And probably a lot of people knew you too.

B (17:10)

Both. Yeah, Possibly. Yeah.

A (17:12)

But it was just for me, running around and then trying get the rejections are obviously not fun. But then also you get a lot of duds of like, people that just don't have a good story or don't kind of follow the process.

B (17:27)

So to me, you mean a random stranger didn't do what you wanted them to do in your mind?

A (17:31)

No, it's more so that they, like, you ask them a question, they say yes. They don't like, embellish, they don't tell a story. Like, those people are difficult to find because I hear even with Simon's team, like, they'll go and interview 60 and they'll get like four or five out of it. Like the hit rate's not super high.

B (17:49)

Wow. Okay. This is a little bit different. Now. I'm also curious because Americans don't have a sterling reputation around the world. Maybe even, especially from the Brits. Here's an American walking up to me, blah, blah, blah, social media that get on my face. Do you think that's Part of definitely.

A (18:05)

Can be, but London's also a hotbed of different people. It wasn't all British people, but yeah, I'm sure there's some aspect to that. But just think about when random people approach you, it's just like, what are you doing? Because you don't. And that's a part of the tension is you're like, what is the intention here of this person approaching me? You don't know that. But getting back to kind of the, the predictability nature of it is like again, man on the Street's just one. We, my team and I have analyzed. We spent like 15,000 hours analyzing these communication pattern structures, we call them formats, and we've identified over 500 of them. So there's so many to choose from. But why I think that humans are predictable in nature is first off telling stories. The first story ever told was 50,000 years ago around a campfire. Now, stories started out as a way to. They weren't fairy tales. They're all about survival. What to fear, how to hunt, how to protect each other, things of that nature. And these stories and structures have built. Everything that we see around us today is. It's ingrained in our DNA to connect with a structure that has a beginning, middle and an end to it, that has tension and release of tension up and down and things of that nature. So to your original point, like virality is not. Anybody can do it. Well, if you follow the patterns, if you follow human behavior, human history, and you use these patterns and structures of how you communicate to your advantage, it increases your chances of breaking through by a hundred x.

B (19:45)

So at the heart of this is stories. We're both big believers in story and the power of storytelling. Let's tell people a story. We're telling people philosophy right now and observations, but not necessarily story. One thing that I've discovered recently during one of our events here in this space was a prompt that somebody gave us, Ms. Michelle, and he said, how did you get here? That's the end of the story. And that's how I got here. So I'm going to give you some time to think about it and then I'm going to tell the story. Is that okay? Yeah, I'll start first and then you say, that's how I got here, that's the end of the story. Okay. So people stress out a little bit because they don't know where the story ends and so they meander, they go all over the place and it becomes not so interesting. But if you know how the story ends Then it's easier. So here's how I got here. People don't know this, but I'm in the building next door. It's 5,000 square feet. And shortly after acquiring that space, we're business going like gangbusters. So we're outgrowing the space. So much so that we're running ethernet cables down the hallway, and we're constantly tripping the breaker because we're using so many machines. And it's hot in that space. And all of a sudden, one day, I'm walking outside and I see there's a sign on this building that we're in, and it says for sale. So my wife immediately jumped on it and said, we have to acquire this building. We're outgrowing that space. We need to get this. And I was like, okay, sounds good. And this was a space where they parked wi Simonson's Mercedes, their cars to be detailed, and then brought over to their main showroom on Wilshire. And so we get into a bidding war to acquire this space. And my wife, just being super emotional, just overbids on this building by half a million dollars. I'm like, babe, let me do that part. And she said, I know you need it. I know you're going to try, like, do it the bare amount, but I promise you, I'm doing this, protect you, so you will not be heartbroken. Lo and behold, we have this space. We spend a year renovating it. A million dollars plus to renovate it. And we eventually move in. But this is 2007. So we move from that space into this space. There's not that many of us for the space of this size. This space is about 13,000 square feet. So we a little bit more than doubled the square footage of what we needed and felt vast versus over. There was like tight and high energy here. It's like really big. And then the financial meltdown happens in 2008. And I think to myself, I think we bought this at the height of the market, and now we're paying for it all the way down. We have obviously survived. And there are sometimes, I think, residual memories where I have nightmares about acquiring a space that I have to then sell at a massive loss. And so that little emotion that I have continues to haunt me from time to time in my dreams. That's how I wind up here.

A (22:40)

Okay, so here's how I got here.

B (22:43)

Okay, before you do that, and you break down any thoughts and reflections of that story.

A (22:47)

So I think that the hook needs to be stronger so you have the Hook in it. It's something along the lines of the biggest financial decision I've ever made in my life happened days before one of the biggest financial meltdowns in American history.

B (23:03)

The contrast.

A (23:03)

Yeah, the contrast and the weight of it.

A (23:07)

Oh, my God. You made this massive financial decision, and then America melts down.

B (23:13)

So after hearing the story, you can write the headline. The hook to draw people in, I.

A (23:19)

Think that's always a great way to do it, is what is the story? You want it? Well, I would even take a step back further is think about what is the effect that you want to have on the viewer? What do you want them to feel? And then you design the story around that. Because again, so many times when we're telling a story or creating a piece of content, we're just so focused on us and what we want to convey, what we want to say versus how is somebody on the other side of the screen going to experience this? Like, what are they going to feel? What are they going to say? What do they think? If they were to write a comment, what would that comment say? What would get them to share it with their friends? And the moment that you can make that shift with each post, and it's going to take some practice, but each time you do that, you're going to start building that muscle and it's going to completely change your perspective on how you create content going forward.

B (24:16)

Okay, I like that breakdown. So we start with emotion. I feel the exact same way too, by the way, when I write a post not freestyling it on camera like this, I start with emotion. What is it I'm feeling? What is it that I want them to feel? And I craft the words in a story so they hopefully feel the same way. A lot of times my intention is to make people cry. So I'm like, I'm writing stories. Like, I want you to feel the pain of whatever it is I'm going through, because I felt that pain myself. And oftentimes that's what they do. And they'll tell me in the comments. I feel like you're describing my life and my story and like, my God, thank you for sharing that. I feel so less alone in the world because someone else has experienced that and gives me a lot of hope.

A (24:57)

Do you know Craig Clemons? No. So Craig is a good friend. He founded a company called Golden Hippo, and they basically create consumer products around doctors and celebrities and things of that nature. And he's. His company sold over $2 billion worth of products through social media, ads. One of the best copywriters in the world. And he says something similar. He says the minute that you can get into your customer's head and understand their core problem, the thing that wakes them up in the middle of the night, and once you understand that and you can articulate their problem to them better than they could articulate it to themselves, you win their trust, and then they'll follow you down that journey with the solution that you want to sell them. So it's a very similar thing to what you're saying. That experience of people feeling that or saying, I've felt that, or I feel that way, or I've been through that. That's such a powerful, powerful emotion and a way to connect. And I just want the audience to kind of understand, like, what you just said of, like, creating that connection of like, people saying, I feel that way or I've been through that experience. Compared to posting a product of a vitamin supplement with a 20% coupon code on it, it's like, what are people.

B (26:10)

Supposed to do with that part there?

A (26:11)

It's completely different, right? It's completely different. So everything I do is I perceive it through a hook. I've just kind of view everything that way. I. I think you're a hooker. Yeah, I'm a hooker.

B (26:22)

Just say it. I'm a hooker. You are.

A (26:26)

I'm kind of looking at, like, what is the thing that just pops out? What is the thing that jumps out? And like, I've just done it so intuitively that I kind of pick up on it. But, like, here's an amazing exercise, and I put it in my hook point book. Like, that you can do is if you just imagine you're standing in front of a magazine stand and you have all of these magazines and new newspapers in front, and it's even a great exercise just to go to a Barnes and Noble or someplace that still sells magazines, and you can look at it and just look at the titles and just think about, if I only got like three to five words or just one headline, what would I say to get that person to pick up that magazine, that newspaper, and read it over all of the other ones out there? And when you kind of constrict yourself to kind of thinking in that way, it allows you to kind of start looking at, like, well, what is the most impactful thing out of that story that stands out? Now, the beauty of the tools that we have available to us today is, AI, you can throw stuff in the chatgpt and just like, brainstorm. And like, I Recommend is like, go through 50, 100 of these. Don't just like come up with five ideas. But you've got to kind of understand that we live in this world that is so saturated, it's so noisy with social media that you have to break the pattern. You have to break the pattern of all the other content, but also have to break the pattern of every story that's already been told about what you're about to talk about. Because the reality is everything's been done before. The originality is overrated in terms of creating something new. Now your spin on it, your story about it, and the way you convey it, that's where you can create the hook and stand out. Like the story that you just told, I mean, has been told a thousand times, but your version of it, of how you tweak it, how you contextualize it, can help stand out.

B (28:18)

Okay, I'll do you one more. I believe if you really want to learn how people grab people's attention, don't just go to Barnes and Noble. First of all, it's a dying breed. Just go to any grocery store where you're going to go check out, look at the magazines that are right by the checkout. They have three seconds to grab your attention and make you impulse buy. We're talking about the Inquire, Us Weekly, all the tabloids, those kinds of things, because they're going to just grab at you. They work really hard because they know that's it. Because no one's going out there, like, oh, let me peruse this magazine. Impulse, right? So you can probably look at those, like, secret lover. This person comes out, cabal to kill this person. And you're like, what they're always designed to. Really. They're a little sensational, but you can probably learn a lot by just looking at those.

A (29:01)

Right, billboards too.

B (29:02)

Yeah, billboards, yeah. Because they have that minute.

A (29:04)

I mean, the amazing thing is it has to be done a little bit more nuanced is social media. Like, I mean, if there's billions of data points available to us for free, you just have to pay attention to them and it'll show you the pattern of what works and what doesn't and why.

B (29:19)

So anywhere where they have a very small window to grab your attention, if something grabs your attention, stop. Pay attention to that and see what you can learn from it and reverse engineer the structure.

A (29:29)

Yes. However, the real kind of learning comes when you compare something that has broken through with the thing that hasn't broken through. And that's the power of where social media can. So like, we were talking about man on the street, and we do this with all of the communication patterns and formats that we find is most people just pay attention to the winners, the ones that generate millions and millions of views. But the real learnings are from when you compare it to the ones that don't break through. So, for example, with man on the street, which we're talking a lot about, we'll take man on the street, we've done nine research projects of it. We've done Simon Squibb, we've done School of Hard Knocks, we've done Alex Stemp, we've done Body by Mark. And what we'll do is we'll take 20 of the high performers, the ones that break through generate millions, tens of millions, the outliers. And then we cross analyze it against the ones that don't break through that are like the hundreds of thousands of views or less. And we literally sit there and we take about 15 to 20 hours to do this. Because we don't just look at one high performer, one low performer, but we literally watch all the high performers. And then we make hypotheses of like, we think that these are performing because of the way that he approaches the person or the way that he asks the question or the question that he asks. And then we see, does it show up in those low performers? If it shows up, shows up in that low performer, then that's not the thing that's driving the success. So you have to knock it out and you have to go back and look, well, what are the elements there that show up in those high performers that don't show up in the ones that underperform? That's where success, that's where the clues come into play. And that's the step that 99% of people don't do is they'll look at man on the street or other successful people on social media and think, oh, I see what they're doing. They're just going to go approach random stranger on the street and interview them. I can do that. They go do it and it doesn't work. And it's because they haven't studied the communication patterns of how the story unfolds and all those elements that causes success. And that's where virality feels like it's luck, like it's playing the lottery, but it's not. They're literally the clues are right there for you to discover.

B (31:38)

All right, so you're trying to tell.

A (31:40)

The story, my story.

B (31:42)

Yeah.

A (31:42)

So here's how I got here, yeah. So here's how I got here. As a young kid, I loved movies. You know, when you ask kids like, what do you want to be when you grow up? My answer would change every time I watched a movie. So if it was a movie about Indiana Jones, well, I want to be an archeologist. If it's a movie about a detective, I want to be a detective. So when I grew up and it was time to go to college, I wanted to go to film school. I want to learn how to make movies and I wanted to produce them. So I went to film school and got immersed in everything about how to tell stories. But like everybody else who goes to film school, what do you do? You move to LA and you pursue this dream, but you start at the bottom. You're making coffee, you're making deliveries, copies, things of that nature. Not the sexiest work. And in the beginning, it's amazing. You're like, I'm in Hollywood, I'm on a. I was. My first job was on the Paramount lot. You're like, oh, my God, I can walk around the Paramount lot, see these sound stages, things of that nature. But after a few months of making coffee and deliveries and things of that nature, I was like, I can't do this anymore. I need to stand out. Like, I need to connect with producers and actors and directors. But the problem was when they asked me, why did I move to la, I would say, well, I want to be in. I want to produce movies. I love movies. And I could see everybody's eyes glaze over because I was just one of a million with the same pipe dream. So I took a step back and I said, you know, I have to find my unique hook point, the hook that's going to get me to stand out. And one of the fascinating things that I saw is every time we finished a movie, there'd be a sense of anxiety and stress that would come over the office. Why? Because we were investing tens of millions of dollars into a single piece of content. And then we only had months for hundreds of millions of people around the world to know about this single piece of content in order for it to be successful. You don't have years or decades to build this brand. And this was around 2005, 2006. So social media was starting to come on the scene. So I said, they have this big need and this big pain point that they need to get these movies out there. They need millions, hundreds of millions of people to know about them. And there's this new thing called YouTube that just started and there's these people in their bedrooms generating tens of millions of views on their content. Well, why don't we go and ask them if they want to interview a movie star or participate in the campaign? So I pitched the head of the studio and he said, you're crazy. This isn't going to work. And I said, well, it's not going to cost us anything. I'll do it for free. And he's like, okay, you can do that, but if you fail, you're going to be stuck making coffee and deliveries for years to come because I won't ever trust you again. So I just went into that process and I just spent. I was up till 3 in the morning DMing these YouTubers. They weren't called YouTubers anymore or before they weren't called influencers. Said, do you want to interview a movie star? And there was a lot of no's, a lot of no responses. But I got five of the biggest people at the time, like Lisa Nova, who ended up founding Maker Studios, the guy that did the evolution of dance video. That was the number one video in the world at the time on YouTube. And that became the first ever influencer campaign on YouTube. And it made the movie a wild success. It was called Crank by Jason Statham. It tripled its production budget. Jason even invited me to his house to talk about digital strategy. So that opened my eyes and built my career of putting myself on the map. And then I had to kind of just take a hard look at myself and what I was doing is do I want to play this corporate culture, corporate game of the movie studios or there's this new medium called social media that's just forming and it's. I didn't know what it was going to be today, but it seems like there's something there and I'm having success and it's exciting. So I decided to completely pivot my career into social media. And Now I share 20 years of experience with people, helping them on their journey of getting their voice be heard. So that is how I got here today.

B (35:44)

So you're not giving me an answer, huh?

A (35:46)

Well, that's the story, that's not necessarily the hook, Right?

B (35:49)

So what would be the hook for your story? See, it's one thing to tell the story, it's another thing to write the hook before you tell the story.

A (35:56)

Yeah, I mean, it could be something around how the first ever influencer campaign on YouTube was created, something it would need. I would probably spend 30 minutes to an hour refining that. But Something along that angle, especially if it's going to be on YouTube.

B (36:10)

Yeah, I'm trying to return the favor, but I'm stuck right now. My brain is overtime. Like, no, I got the hook. No, I don't. I got nothing for you. So if you're watching this video, why don't you drop in the comments? What should the hook be for Brennan's story?

A (36:24)

I want to know what people's stories are. Put the hook for your story. What's your life story? People should put that in the comments. I'll go in the comments and rework people's hooks.

B (36:33)

He will. I'll.

A (36:35)

Yeah. So if, if they put it in, I would love to hear people's. If they had a. If they had a magazine in the grocery store in Barnes and Noble, even though it's dying or a billboard, what would your hook be? I would love to see that in the comments.

B (36:48)

Okay, let's get back to man on the Street.

A (36:50)

Let's do it.

B (36:51)

Okay. I don't know where we left off. So there's some structure, there's some tension. Does there need to be some kind of clear payoff?

A (36:59)

Yes. And that's kind of where it's kind of that perspective shift, that aha moment. Like what is the big takeaway that somebody can, can take from that?

B (37:09)

It's time for a quick break, but we'll be right back.

C (37:20)

Hey everyone, this is Rich, the producer of the future. And we're going to take a quick break because Chris has a message he desperately wants to get out.

A (37:27)

And that is this.

C (37:28)

Every day you post, you disappear a little more. You read your caption back and you think, this could be anyone. Here's the actual brutal truth. The more you try and fit in, the less you stand out. Chris Learned this after 20 years building a multi million dollar creative business. And for years he'll admit he played it safe, professional, polished, sounding just like everyone else. And then he stopped. He's an award winning designer who also loves streetwear. He's a CEO who quotes hip hop and business media. He's an educator who isn't afraid to call out industry bs. So when he stopped trying to be everyone else, everything changed. He built the future to eight figures. A hundred thousand students worldwide and clients who pay premium prices without negotiating. Not because he became someone else, because he finally became more of himself. Content Lab is where Chris teached you to do the same thing. Live group coaching with Chris twice a month. AI trained on his entire methodology. 52 writing prompts to excavate your best Stories. Stop blending in. Start standing out. Visit thefuture.com and click Content Lab in the upper right corner to join today. Direct link will be located in the show notes.

B (38:51)

And Rebecca, welcome back to our conversation. So, you know when I see. It's not Conan. Yeah. Sometimes it's Conan or Jimmy Kimmel. When they used to do the person on the street and then go out there and then ask silly questions. Sometimes they bring a famous person with them, like, and they'll talk about their movie. Not letting them know that's the actor or actress.

A (39:09)

Yeah.

B (39:10)

And it's kind of hilarious. Yeah, she's all right. And then it's kind of interesting to see how the actor responds to that. Yeah. They're overrated. And you get to see a different side of personality. I think it's the unpredictability of it. And now here becomes the problem. Thus far, I've played it Safe. Went to VidCon. Some people know me. I just started talking to them. And those are the first three or four pieces of content. I don't think I've actually come up to a total random stranger like you did, and maybe that's what I need to do. What do you think about that?

A (39:41)

I don't think you need to do it. I think that if you want to do it at events or things of that nature can still work. Random strangers. There is more of that unpredictability to it. But again, you're going to have to go through a lot of people. The position that we came up with and the questions you're asking is so strong that I think you can still do it at events. But what I would recommend testing is approaching the person. So there's initial movement into the situation versus just starting with the two of you on screen. Even if you know the person, the person knows you're going to come up to them. Because like you said, there's some people like we have, we have a client that is a chef, and he has to set this up ahead of time because his whole format is he asks people what their favorite meal is and then he goes home and cooks it and brings it back to them. So that has to be scripted. But I would say that that initial movement into it of you approaching the person creates even more tension into it. Good.

B (40:40)

We're about to drop one with some tension right up front. And that's what we're thinking, too. Yeah. Yeah.

A (40:45)

But I don't. I wouldn't say that you have to do it because I think your hook is so strong. I don't know if you know Rob Moore. He's a big UK influencer, has a big podcast called Disruptors. But he's going to do what we were talking about it. But his thing is, like, asking people how much debt they're in. So, like that. Again, there's that polarizing, tension building question with it. And when you have that, then it can hold on its own. You don't necessarily have to go into the wild that way.

B (41:14)

Something else you mentioned, there's some awkwardness that builds in the watchability, the tension. I'm not saying I'm not awkward, but should I be more awkward?

A (41:24)

No, you should be authentic. Don't do it on purpose because again, we're professional content consumers. We're picking up on so much on a subconscious level that people can pick up if you're overacting and things like that.

B (41:39)

I think you know who I was going to refer to, right? No, the industry plant girl. Oh, the one who interviewed Bobby. Yeah, Bobby something. Yeah. Where people are like, is this an act? And she's deep in character, right?

A (41:52)

Yeah.

B (41:52)

Asking the worst questions.

A (41:54)

I don't know her. I haven't met her. I think she's awkward in nature. But again, she did a great job with it and it worked. I don't think she's doing it anymore. I just recommend for most people, they can't pull it off. Like, if you're a trained actor, then sure, go for it. But I think that the. In terms of what you're talking about, how do you create more awkwardness, more tension? It's going to be how you push people. How you push people to kind of think differently around how much money or how much they charge for per hour or how much they charge value themselves. Like, put like, Simon Squibb does it, like, what is your dream? He's pushing, like, why aren't you doing this? Why aren't you doing this? Like, you could do this, this, this and this. He keeps challenging him. That challenge creates that tension and that awkward moment. And you could do the same with that. Well, why are you only charging that much? Why are you thinking about that? Like, challenging less about the money that they're charging and more about why are you valuing yourself so little?

B (42:52)

Let's continue down that path. My intention going in was never to convince anybody of anything, just to approach it with a lot of curiosity. So somebody's like, oh, I'm a salary woman. I don't. I'm like, that's cool by me. I'm not even challenging them because I talked to Simon about this. He goes, chris, are you going to educate people? Are you going to do this? I don't think that's my approach, because I don't really want to force an agenda on people. Like, Simon clearly wants everyone to quit their job, quit school, and start their business. And sometimes they could totally have catastrophic failure. That's not what I'm interested in. It's like, I'm just curious about the person and their take on that idea. So if they're like, I don't charge by hour, great. Or I charge by the hour, or I think there's a little bit of money or a lot, I just try to, like, let them say what they want to say.

A (43:36)

So I definitely don't think you need to push an agenda, but I want to give you kind of a little bit perspective on the difference. Let's look at, like, School of Hard Knocks and Simon Squibb. So Simon Squibb does exactly that. He asks somebody a question. What is your dream? To direct them with advice on helping them pursue that dream. The School of Hard Knocks approaches very successful people. Asks, how did you make your first million dollars? How did you become successful? There is a massive difference in the brand relationship and the brand recognition that Simon has because he's kind of putting his advice, his knowledge into the equation versus the School of Hard Knocks. And this is nothing against School of Hard Knocks. They've done an amazing job.

B (44:22)

Right?

A (44:23)

Huh?

B (44:23)

Is it a young guy? Yeah, yeah. I think I've seen his content. Yeah.

A (44:26)

But he's just interviewing them.

B (44:27)

Right.

A (44:28)

So.

B (44:28)

So there's hurting himself.

A (44:30)

He's not inserting himself. So there's. There's a ceiling to kind of the brand that can be built with that. Now he's being successful with his school community and things of that nature. But if he was able to. To insert his expertise or his brand more into it, it would elevate overall what he's doing. So that's the difference is. And you can do it both ways. And gonna be successful is you can be a passive, just observer of this interaction of just asking the questions and being the interviewer versus inserting yourself. And that's also like, you look at your podcast like, you don't just sit and ask questions. You provide your perspective, your unique insight through that conversation, and that's why it generates business results and things of that nature. I mean, it's the same thing with the biggest podcasters like. Like Stephen Bartlett and Joe Rogan and Lex Friedman. They're not just sitting there asking Questions. They're inserting their perspective on situations and that's why there's such a strong brand relationship with them. Does that make sense?

B (45:32)

Yeah, I think I'm somewhere in the middle. I'm not just a passive interviewer. And I understand why.

A (45:37)

I don't think you are at all.

B (45:38)

Yeah. That the, the young guy has to do that because he hasn't done that. So it makes sense. Right. Where Simon. Love Simon. I don't always love that. He's trying to tell people to start a business that's not for everyone.

A (45:48)

Yeah, I, I, I understand.

B (45:50)

You know, it's like that's not me either, but I understand like the insertion, the connective tissue. If you don't have a voice or a perspective, then it becomes about the other person and you kind of disappear and all that. And I'm not doing that either. I don't think. Okay, good perspective. So if you are of the type that wants to do the person on the street to kind of keep it gender neutral, Think about the hook. It's gotta be a really good question. It's gotta have built intention. There has to be enough kind of open endedness to it that we're gonna hear different responses. And each, it's like, you know, Forrest Gump, life's like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get. And then to follow that down whatever rabbit hole and just to make sure that there's a part where the audience can connect with that there's an emotion and they can reflect on their own lives. What am I worth or why aren't I pursuing my dream? And then to kind of what was the end of it? You had already said this. There needs to be some, there needs.

A (46:43)

To be an aha moment perspective shift with it. Yeah, I think one of the other things, and this is not just with man on the Street. A lot of the things that we're talking about are applied to many different formats, but most people only focus on the initial hook, which is critically important. But a great video usually has two or three hooks within it because you need to keep that attention, you need to build that retention with it. It's like if you look like I have a friend that's an amazing storyteller, created a really successful ad agency and he created a deck on Jaws, the story of Jaws. And he plotted how the story goes. And every movie, every great story does this is you build this tension like the shark attacks and then the shark attack's done and it releases the attention and then that Music comes back. It builds the tension and then releases the tension. The dynamics of that type of storytelling is what keeps people engaged. And a lot of people, when they hear the word hook, they just think, oh, I just got to hook people in the first three seconds. No, you need to hook people throughout the story that you're telling.

B (47:47)

It's like in a lot of episodic television, there are mini cliffhangers to commercial break, and they've learned how to do that. This happens on any kind of Netflix series, hbo, Apple series, where I already know when the episode's going to end because of the point of highest tension. So that I'm naturally like, I gotta watch the next episode. And then these little mini breaks, like, and the name of the father is. And then there's a gunshot. And they're like, wait, we don't know. So we have to know the next step.

A (48:15)

They'll end with a hook.

B (48:16)

Yeah, they always do same.

A (48:17)

It happens in news, sports, commentary. Like, if you watch espn, they'll do that. After the break, we're going to cover why LeBron James is retiring tomorrow. It's like, well, that's a hook that's going into keeping that retention. It's the same thing with social media.

B (48:34)

Anything else we need to know about man on the street or Person on the street?

A (48:37)

Again, I think that the big thing is it's a lot more nuanced and detailed than it looks. And 99% of people that will try it will fail. Not because it's this, like, really complex thing, is because they don't sit there and study what's the difference between a high performer and a low performer. If you do that, you will have success with it.

B (49:00)

I also think when I look at Simon, Simon Squibb, he's kind of like this very friendly, approachable guy who I don't know if it's true or not. From what I can tell, he's a very genuine, sincere person trying to help people. So it's almost like he's got the body, the personality, and the charisma to pull something like this off. So if I'm watching this, I'm like, brendan, I want to be a man on the street or a woman on the street, but they don't have that. Does that mean that it's designed this format specifically for people who have some of that charisma and that charm?

A (49:36)

No. And I'll give you example. Alex Stump, a good friend of mine, he's a photographer that uses man on the street. And he is not an extrovert like Simon at all. So he's a photographer. He approaches random strangers in the street and asks, can I offer you a professional photo shoot? So for him, he doesn't even really need to communicate at all other than approaching them and saying, can I off? Like one of his most video viewed videos is he. You can't even hear him talking. It's just I approach this random stranger, there's this tension of like, what? You want to take my photo? Like I don't want to do this. Like this isn't interesting. And then they reluctantly say yes. And then it's just a quick snapshot of him taking the photos and then it builds up to the reveal of showing how amazing the photos are. The most important thing with any storytelling format is does it feel authentic to you? Are you excited about doing it? Like, do you want to do it? And if you do, like that's going to come off. And it can be done in different ways. You don't have to be over the top like Simon Squibble, because Alex is. And I recommend people check out his, his channel of how he approaches it versus Simon Squibb or even like the school of hard knocks. It's completely different. There's another guy, Hunter Prosper. I don't know if you know him, he's got like 6 or 7 million followers. So he does a, a version of man on the street that's called Story from Strangers. And he approaches random people, typically they're a bit older, and asks them what are the biggest emotionally charged questions about their life. Like, who was your first heartbreak? Who was your first love? Dose of Society started doing this. I don't know if you know that account, but they're not even on camera. They're behind the camera and just asking people and you just hear the voiceover. So there's different ways to go about it. But I would just say, does it feel authentic and natural to you? Because there's so many options and so many choices of directions that you can take with formats.

B (51:29)

The photography one has a particularly strong hook payoff because the whole time, like what is the photo gonna look like? What's the photo gonna look like? And sometimes it's really amazing. Sometimes I'm like, yeah, it's all right. But it got me to the end. And then I watch another one and I'll watch another one. And sometimes they're mind blowing. Yeah.

A (51:46)

Again, that's why we focus so much on these structures, these formats is they are designed for great storytelling. Now you need to know how to Execute it. But what do most people do with social media? They just come up with ideas and throw a bunch of stuff at the wall and see what sticks. But if you don't have again, I started in film school. Like, when you go to film school, they make you sit there and watch classic movies. They make you write screenplays, they make you act, they make you direct, they make you edit so that you can understand how stories are told. And that's why when you started this, like, can anybody go viral? That's why it feels like, no, not anybody can go viral, but they can if they actually sit there and study what makes things successful versus unsuccessful. And it comes to these clear patterns and structures that have been used even pre social media. Like another format that you've seen and a lot of people use is called two characters, One Light bulb, where it's the same person that plays two different characters and they go back and they debunk a common myth or misconception about pop culture or an industry. So you have like Erica Kohlberg that uses about the fine print about warranties, like what happens when your AirPods break or your flight gets canceled. You have Mark Tilbury that does it about finance, like financing a car. It can be used for any industry and sector. Again, the first time that was used was in the 1920s by Buster Keaton, who was. Was kind of like the Will Ferrell of the time. And then Saturday Night Live used it. And then Mike Myers and Austin Powers, where he plays Austin Powers and Dr. Evil. It's a proven structure to work, and people are again, are using it today and having a lot of success because the structure is inherently there to allow you to effectively communicate and convey your message to audiences and connect them to what you ultimately want to say.

B (53:35)

I'm going to frame this question in a certain way that may polarize your audience, depending on how you answer this question. So anyone can go viral. So if someone hasn't gone viral, is it because they're not trying hard enough, they're not smart enough, or what?

A (53:52)

No. I see a lot of people are trying too hard that they are very smart or they're too scared to tackle it, they're too scared to fail. But this is not about. This is not about you as an individual. This is not about your message or your brand not being there. It's not that your product isn't good enough. It's the way that you tell the story. It's the way that you express your message, your brand that dictates success versus lack thereof. And that's where I'm sure there's a lot of frustrated people out there that see some like, let's just say you're a dentist or a lawyer or a doctor, and you see these people that have half the qualifications that are going viral and you're not. Well, again, you're smarter than them. You have more experience than them. You probably tried a lot of things that didn't work. So it's really none of those things. It's the way that you're tackling the problem. It's the way that you're trying to get people to pay attention to you.

B (54:50)

So I suspect that you and I may be talking to two very different groups of people, because the people I talked to, I was like, yeah, you're the problem. And you're like, no, you're not the problem. I'll tell you why. Number one, they look at creating content as some kind of burden. They'd rather not be doing it. I say, hey, if your state is, this is stupid. I don't want to do this. What a waste of time. Well, that's going to bleed into how you perform and how you appear on camera. Number two, a lot of them are into optimization, so they want to record once a month and they just bang out stuff. They could care less what happens, but they want it to magically happen. Number three, what we already talked about is they call it social media, but it's just all ads. They're promoting something that's very transparent, what's happening. It's all promotion, nonstop promotion. So I think a large portion of society fits in one or all three of those categories. And that's why I think their content doesn't cut through.

A (55:44)

I agree 100% with everything that you just say, and I see a lot of that. But you initially asked the question, are they not smart enough? Are they not working hard enough?

B (55:53)

And my answer would be yes, in the most violent way, but because they don't want to.

A (55:58)

There's a lot of. I run into a lot of smart people that say the same thing as you. They just don't have the perspective of what social media is. You know what the biggest detriment of social media is? Is that anybody can pull out a phone, click, record and post because it is so easy. People think that they should just get millions of views because they took the time to open up their phone and quickly cord and post it. They think they deserve millions of views. Now, again, starting in film school. When I started in film school, I was actually cutting film like, they make you learn that way. Like, making a movie takes a lot of time, energy, and effort to do it. So there's a little bit more kind of awareness of going in, like, hey, this is a lot of work, and this is going to take years to master. But social media, the downside, the blessing and the curse is anybody can pull out a phone and they tell a great story. They can reach millions of people. The downside is it's so easy to do that people just expect the results to be there, if that makes sense.

B (56:58)

Yeah, totally does. So when you say there's a lot of people say what you say, what do you mean when you say that?

A (57:05)

When I say that, you just told me that.

B (57:07)

Just like before you said this, you're like, there's a lot of people who say what you say, Chris. But something like, say, like.

A (57:13)

Well, you just say that. One of the. One of the things that I say is, okay, what's your expertise? Oh, you're a lawyer. How long did it take you to get good at becoming a lawyer? How long did you have to go to school for? Oh, you're a dentist. How long did it take you to go to dentist? You're a designer. How long did it take you to craft that? Now, I'm not saying it's going to take that long, but think about all of the work that went into that. Like, the interesting thing is our most successful clients are people that have had to learn some type of, like, nuanced skill set, like a leather craftsman, a hand doctor, a dentist, a lawyer, because they kind of have to pay attention to these finite details to be successful in their craft. It's the people that haven't had to go through that. It's just a little bit of struggle for them to wrap their heads around the fact that, no, it's not as easy as you just sit, turn on the camera, press, record, and then post that. There's a lot of nuance that goes into it. Now, I'm not saying that it's going to take you 10 years to master it, but you have to at least go into with that mindset because you're 100% right. If you go in with the wrong mindset to say, I only want to sit down once a month for two hours, record content and do it, or, I don't believe social media can grow my business. I don't want to do it like, well, that's like anything in life. If you go in with that mindset, you're not gonna be successful.

B (58:33)

I got a Question for you. I see your content, I follow you. You do a lot of breakdowns.

A (58:38)

Yeah.

B (58:39)

Is that considered storytelling?

A (58:40)

Yeah.

B (58:41)

Tell me why.

A (58:42)

Because you're telling a story of. So a lot of the breakdowns we do is one video went viral, one video did not go viral. So we're telling a story about why this One video got 10 million views and this one video got a million. A thousand views. So when we tell, when we say telling a story. Telling a story can be anything. It can be educating. It could be, you know, there's house tours, there's Ryan Sirhant and this guy Ennis that go tour like multi million dollar houses. Like that's the story of touring a house. Now, you know, the first person to use that format. Think way back. Exactly.

B (59:17)

Hey, I got one final.

A (59:18)

So there's another one that is there. So there's many different ways to tell a story. It doesn't have to be a fairy tale like once upon a time with everything. It's just. Does it have a beginning, middle and end to it? Are you, are you actually sharing some information or something that's creating an effect on the viewer through the story that you're telling?

B (59:39)

Okay, let's talk about Ennis for a second. I love to watch beautiful homes from all price points because it allows me to see spaces that I'm a fan of architecture and we see these videos and then all of a sudden I start watching this one guy named Ennis. I think he's Turkish, I don't know, something like that. Somebody told me he's Turkish, but I don't know. Anyway, so Ennis does these tours and he goes, and he does it to me very differently than how these other people do it. First of all, he talks to the camera guy and the camera guy has a personality. He's asking some questions, but he talks about a lot of details about this kind of crystal or book match marble, this and that. And so he's taking something that for most untrained eye would not even be able to pick up. He starts talking about these things, inconveniences and floor plans. He does a really good job. I thought if you have a young person, you're a parent, it's a skill. What I would recommend people do is play his video, turn the volume all the way off and have your young person just try to present. It's a good thing. Just develop your communication skills and your presentation skills and get comfortable speaking. So I thought he did a great job. What is your take on Ennis? His ability to do these tours.

A (60:50)

Well, I think there's part of what you're saying. I think that he also does a great job with the hook of the property, selecting the right properties and presenting, like, houses that you ultimately want to see no matter what your price level is at. And that's, again, it's. I just want to point this out because it's really important of, like, what you said of like, oh, I don't think social media can grow my business. Like. Like, one of the mindset limitations that people have is that was designed pre social media is design a niche message for a niche audience. And that just doesn't work with social media because of how the algorithms work and things of that nature. They only care about content. They could see to the most amount of people and capture their attention. So in that specific format. And Ryan Sirhant, I think, generates more money from it. I don't think Enes is as big of a real estate agent. I think he's getting paid now a lot of money to do these.

B (61:38)

Yeah, I don't think he's doing a realtor, as far as I know. Right.

A (61:40)

Yeah. I think he's making money off of the videos. But like, Ryan Sirhan actually makes money by closing clients. If you think about, I'm going to take you on a tour of a $250 million ranch, well, who wants to see that? Anybody would want to see that. On top of the billionaires that also would want to see that. And because they're playing the number games with that amazing hook where it's generating millions and millions of views, if less than a fraction of a percent are his core target audience, they ultimately win. So there is a big aspect of the storytelling of his, unique aspect of how he's engaging with the cameraman. The way that they actually tour the property is methodical in terms of what rooms do you show first? How do you kind of build the tension throughout of like, again, different hooks of different interesting parts of the property interspersed throughout and then just again, choosing the right property and positioning it in the right way. So, like Ryan, I don't know Enes most view videos, but like Ryan, I think his most viewed videos is let me take you on a $250 million ranch. Let me take you on a tour of a $7 million closet. Things of that nature that make it more appealing for people to come in.

B (62:46)

Now, there's another guy. Maybe you know him. Arvin Haddad.

A (62:50)

I don't know him.

B (62:51)

Oh, okay. What's really interesting is he's the how to buy a mansion guy. And so Arvind Haddad is an LA realtor. So he critiques Ennis's videos and at first they didn't do really well, and now he's created his own market. So now the videos that he's producing are tens, twenty, a hundred thousand views too. And it's real interesting how he critiques it because he's like, this is all bs, let me pause the video and he'll talk about it. So even if you're not the person making the original video, you can have a career and a business by critiquing that. And his perspective on what you see and what you don't see is really interesting. He'll tell you, okay, so that home did not sell. It sold for half the price it was listed for, and here's why. And he has a rating system like his system, like 10 point system. And why it scored this number.

A (63:37)

Yeah, we call it the reaction format. Again, that one's been around forever as well, pre social media. And it's a format that can work really well if you kind of have your unique perspective. And again, you study the high performers versus the low performers. But it's a really powerful format, like.

B (63:52)

You said, so anyone can go viral if they have the intention, if they understand the right format for them, understand the high performers and the low performers. So they're much more informed at doing that and they put in the work and they stick to it until they find success.

A (64:08)

Yeah, and studying, you got to study communication, study what makes something successful versus unsuccessful.

B (64:14)

All right, that's not as sexy as saying anyone can go viral, but anybody can go viral. Anybody can go viral for whatever reason. You do go viral, you don't even know why and it went viral. What's the biggest mistake you see people doing after the content goes viral?

A (64:28)

Well, number one is what content caused you to go viral? Is it related to what you actually do? Because that's a big misconception that people get caught up in. And the reason people are kind of adverse to going viral, they think, well, I got to do a silly TikTok fancy video, I got to do a prank, I got to show my cute puppy things of that nature. I never believe in going viral for the sake of going viral. It should be tied to your specific expertise, your domain of what you're sharing, what you sell, your business. Any subject matter can go viral. Taxes, real estate, insurance, nutrition, anything can go viral. So that's number one, is making sure that you're going viral. For the right reasons. It's correlated to that. Number two, do you have a solid business foundation under it? Because if you don't have the business foundation on how to capitalize off that attention, then it's not going to mean anything. Meaning do you have the right product? Because that's the big thing is do you have a product that people want that, that is it actually a good product? Number two is like, do you know how to funnel that attention? Do you have landing pages? Do you have email sequences set up? Like, do you have all these aspects underneath it to capitalize off of that? Number three, this is a question I get asked all the time is what is the ROI of social media? And the reality is it depends. It depends on how big your vision is, how big your business is. I don't know if you know Michelle Phan, but she had millions of subscribers on YouTube. She's a beauty influencer.

B (66:01)

OG YouTuber.

A (66:02)

OG YouTuber. I think she was the first, first female to generate a million subscribers on YouTube. But there's a ton of other BD influencers out there. And instead of saying, I'm just going to take brand deals, she created her own company, ipsy. She grew to half a billion dollar valuation while there's other people with the same audience that are making like 100, $200,000 a year, which there's nothing wrong with that if that's what you want to do. But the reality is, is what is the foundational vision that you have for your business and you have for your brand that can capitalize off the attention once you get it? And that's where it's like, kind of took a little bit of a dig to like Kylie Jenner, but like, I mean, they took a reality TV show and turned it into a billion dollar enterprise. There's plenty of people that have been on reality TV shows that have not done that. Like they knew how to take that attention and build massive brands off the back end of it. Same thing with Mr. Beast. He grew so big, he generates so many views that brands can't afford to pay him the value of the number of views that he created. So what does he do? Well, he creates his own brands and turns them into billion dollar enterprises to keep fueling that larger vision that he has.

B (67:13)

My dig was it's a little easier to be famous when everybody around you is already famous. It's not like she toiled that.

A (67:19)

Yeah, but, but fame doesn't equate to dollars.

B (67:22)

No, I know, I know.

A (67:23)

Just because you're famous doesn't mean you're a billionaire.

B (67:25)

I agree. Just makes it a lot easier. It's kind of like starting the game on third base. Want to debate this?

A (67:33)

Well, again, I think social media changed the dynamic of everything.

B (67:37)

Yeah.

A (67:38)

You no longer have to rely on a television show or radio show or anything. You can make yourself famous.

B (67:45)

Yes, you can make yourself famous. But when you're already famous, everything becomes a lot easier.

A (67:49)

It's still not as easy as you think. No, no. Because if it was that easy, then every celebrity would be a billionaire.

B (67:55)

I'm just saying, all things being equal, when you're already famous, everything you do is easier. There's no guarantees, but it's just a lot easier. It's just like if you're rich, things are a little easier, just like if you are part of the dominant majority.

A (68:11)

The reason I like to push back on that is I think people use that as an excuse for not taking action.

B (68:16)

That's why I'm not for that either, by the way.

A (68:18)

Yeah. But that's why I kind of, like, resisted a little bit. It's not that it's not true. It's just people like to point at that and say, that person's a billionaire because they're famous, or that person's successful because they're famous. Or the reason I'm not successful is because I'm not famous, or I'm not in a movie, I'm not in a television show, and things of that nature. When literally these things that we have in our pocket, there's no excuse with a phone. Like, you have no excuse at this.

B (68:42)

I'm with you. And that's kind of a defeatist mentality, a victim mindset. But I also have to say there's reality, too.

A (68:49)

Yeah, but you were just talking about the victim mindset before, of what you hear with people about social media. They come up. Come up with all these excuses for why they're not going to do social media.

B (69:01)

Oh, yeah, Yeah. I wasn't. Just for clarification.

A (69:05)

I hear those things a lot, too.

B (69:06)

Yeah. I didn't say that's a victim mindset. I'm like, they're doing all the wrong things, therefore that's not going to work out. And they believe they're doing the right thing or they don't care enough. So I'm like, you just don't want it, that's fine.

A (69:17)

Yeah.

B (69:18)

And they're not blaming anybody. Like, it just doesn't work for me. I'm like, yeah, it doesn't. Not the way you're doing It, Yeah, there's no guarantees there. Right. But like, say, for example, somebody's watching.

A (69:26)

This and, well, there's also a victim mindset with like, oh, I'm being shadow banned. Or the algorithm suppressing me on purpose to get me to.

B (69:32)

That is like a reality distortion. Yeah, you're that good that you're being shadow banned. If you didn't do something to violate the terms of service, you're not shadow banned. I'm just going to say your content sucks.

A (69:43)

Yeah.

B (69:44)

I'll just say it's stronger. Okay. But maybe we ended on a hot, spicy note as a cliffhanger, potentially a new conversation, which is this. Somebody's going to be watching this and they say this all the time. So I'm just going to give voice to them. Sure. It's easy for you guys and say, you're already successful, you're in Los Angeles. Some of us are in a country where they're dropping bombs on our heads right now. I didn't have Internet connection, bro. I don't have water. I don't. So we have to acknowledge the fundamentals, which is there is certain amount of privilege that we have. We have infrastructure, we have capital, we have opportunities, we have resources. It does make it easier. Now you're going to argue and remember, direct all of your attention and comments to.

A (70:23)

There's, there's, there's different levels to it. If you're saying you don't have an Internet connection, well, that's one thing. If you don't have an Internet connection, you don't have a way to create content, like with a mobile device or things of that nature. Sure, I get that.

B (70:37)

Clean water, electricity.

A (70:41)

99.9% of people watching this and 99.9% of people that don't have success on social media don't fall into that bucket. They fall into the lack of success because they just don't learn the principles or seek the guidance for these aspects that we're talking about. So that's kind of like levels to it. And I will say that, like, at this stage, being in LA doesn't help you. Both you and I worked our asses off. How does being in LA help you with social media? Tell me, how does it help you with social media? I know plenty of people in LA that can't figure out social media.

B (71:20)

That is true. I'll tell you why. When you live in a metropolitan city with a lot of people trying to achieve their dreams, there's an energy here. I can't quantify it. Like, maybe you can that when you're in a city full of dreamers.

B (71:35)

And I think. Who said this? I think Daniel Priestley said this. He goes, america's a very unique place. Or maybe it's Elon Musk. Elon Musk said this. I believe it was Elon. He says, America is such a unique place that we believe in dreams, that there's plenty of venture capital and our appetite for risk is really high. As you move away from the coasts and towards the center parts of the country, that appetite changes drastically. People become much more fear based, the limiting mindset and those kinds of things here. I'm like, hey, I need two guys to help me crew. First of all, they know how to do it and they're ready and they're trying to build their dreams together. And it's a pretty awesome place. And if you need to cast a person to play a certain role, the abundance of the types of people that would show up for your casting call is tremendous. The infrastructure is here. Hollywood is the dream capital, right? The dream makers. This is the dream factory here, Disney's here, the studio executives here. So if you want to pitch an idea and you want to make something, it's all here. There's a reason why people come here to do this.

A (72:33)

So counter to that one, we're talking about social media. All you need is a phone and yourself. Number two, where is Mr. Beast? He's not in LA, he's in North Carolina. Number three is. Yes. And I've seen, and it's interesting because I've seen this in London. Like I don't know if you know the YouTuber Max Fosh, he's really big and I was talking to him about his mindset versus like Mr. Beast, who he knows and things of that nature. And it is different. With that said, you have the Internet at your disposal. Any limitation that you face, you have information that you can garner for free. You can fix your mindset. If you choose to fix your mindset, you can work through those things. I'm not saying it's easy, but like we all have challenges and obstacles that we have to overcome. But I don't think you need to move to LA to be on social media. I don't think you need to be from United States to do it. I think that there's pros and cons to being anywhere in the world. Now again, there's different levels to it. Like you saying people don't have clean water and Internet connection and things of that nature. Obviously that's going to hinder your ability But I just don't want people to think that they have to live in a specific place, have to be from a specific background, have to have some type of fancy equipment or things to succeed because those are just limitations in your mindset that you can overcome.

B (73:51)

Now, I want to be very clear for our watchers or our viewers, I want to be very clear for our audience here I am, you already know this. I am not one for the victim mindset, but I'm also trying to acknowledge reality. Casey Neistat, for example, used to make a lot of content. New York is another character in his story. And if you've been in New York, depending on where you are, there's no bad angles. It doesn't matter what street you're down, it looks beautiful. There's interesting things. There's characters. The UPS guy and the cop who wants to arrest him for riding a bicycle in a lane. He comes to la, makes content, it doesn't hit because LA is not that kind of character. It's a different character. And Casey's not used to that. He's not used to getting on his boosted board and just jamming everywhere and just running into folks and running around the city and everything's a cool backdrop for him. And so I think the city becomes a character.

A (74:38)

So it can, depending on the format that you're doing, but you don't have to do the Casey Nesta nice.

B (74:43)

That is true. But there are advantages to some cities more than others. And I'm just saying, I'm just trying to acknowledge reality, that's all. That if you want to make a film of any kind and you want resources high or low, there are some places that are going to be a.

A (74:58)

Lot easier if you want to make a film. Yes, but we're talking about social media content.

B (75:02)

Well, do you think it's coincidental a lot of these quote unquote big influencer are in Los Angeles and they move here for a reason.

A (75:09)

I would say that 90% of the biggest influencers are not in Los Angeles. You just probably know of them because you're in Los Angeles. And I'm not saying that there are not here, but there's so many massive influencers all around the world.

B (75:22)

There are, but there's a large amount of them here, there's a large amount.

A (75:27)

Of them in the world.

B (75:28)

Where's the next place, the concentration?

A (75:30)

Well, I think it's concentration of people because there's more people and more likelihood of that person being like. Because we just. Simon Squibb, Daniel Priest, who we just mentioned they're in London. Max Fosh is in London. There's people in New York. But again, you have Mr. Beast in North Carolina. It's like, there's people all over the world. There's people in Dubai. There's people in Chicago. There's people in Mexico. There's people in Brazil. Like, there's so many influencers that we don't even know because they speak different languages, that we don't consume their content.

B (75:58)

Okay. The inner way. You know, this one way or the other, regardless of what we think. And perhaps in our next episode, we'll follow up on that and see what happens.

A (76:06)

Yeah.

B (76:06)

Brendan, thanks for being on the show.

A (76:07)

Once again, thanks for having me.