Your Best Leverage Is Knowing Your Customer | Ep 958

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: The Game with Alex Hormozi

Episode: Your Best Leverage Is Knowing Your Customer (Ep 958)
Date: October 15, 2025
Host: Alex Hormozi

---

Overview

In this episode, Alex Hormozi unpacks why deeply understanding your customer is the essential leverage point for business growth. Through live hotline calls with entrepreneurs, Alex walks through actionable frameworks and mindsets for doubling down on your best customer segment, refining content strategies, experimenting with channels and messaging, and reverse-engineering offers based on customer insights. The episode demonstrates how the right customer focus and data-driven iteration can create exponential leverage across product, marketing, and sales.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Customer Knowledge as Primary Leverage

[00:02], [15:30], [16:05]

• Alex opens and reiterates throughout: Knowing your customer must come first. Every element—messaging, offer, channel selection—should be reverse engineered from a deep understanding of your ideal customer.
• Quote:

  “You knowing who your customer is is going to be data that you absolutely have to have no matter what. And so why would we delay something that's going to give us so much leverage on our messaging, our offer, our channels? Picking the customer is the first and most important thing that you can do in the business. And then your offer comes from the customer.” (Alex, 00:02 and 15:30)

2. Live Business Breakdown: Medical Men's Clinic

[00:31]–[10:16]

• Guest: Doctor running a men’s sexual health clinic with $200k/month revenue and zero ad spend, mainly YouTube and word-of-mouth for lead gen.
• Major constraint: Not enough qualified (i.e., high-ticket) leads for pricey ($15k–$25k) treatments.
• The clinic’s YouTube channel is the primary acquisition channel (150k subscribers).
• Recent attempts to target wealthy clients by narrowing video topics to "entrepreneurs and executives" caused plummeting view counts.

Content & Funnel Strategy

• Alex advises not to risk the core channel (“never threaten your core business”) when testing.
  • Quote:

    “I never want to threaten my core business. If I have two videos of a certain style and packaging that are working, I don’t want to break that. Cause all of a sudden your revenue could cut in half and that would be not fun.” (Alex, 05:45)

• Recommendation: Keep the existing two videos per week targeting the broader audience, add a third “experimental” video for the exec niche.
• Emphasizes better, not just more content: Focus on scripting, packaging, thumbnails, and hooks. Use tools like Oneoften.com to analyze packaging and pick winning formats from outlier hits.
• Proof, promise, plan, pain: Craft intros around these for retention and impact.

High-Ticket Positioning and Experimentation

• Don’t overhaul funnel yet—65% close rate shows it isn’t the constraint; focus remains on lead volume and quality.
• Suggests running small, experimental ads targeting aspirational channels (e.g., private jet marketing), but only in addition to—not instead of—organic and core strategies.
• Double down on what already works: “Repeat your winners.” (Alex, 10:12)

3. Coaching on Channel Focus for Automation Business

[10:19]

• Alex answers another live caller (“Mike”) who is spread across Facebook, Instagram, and email for B2B automation lead gen.
• Core advice: Pick one channel, go deep. Mastery and volume on one channel beats weak multi-channel activity.
  • “You’re doing too much… pick one of those channels to start out with and just do more on that one channel.”

4. Pricing & Customer Selection for SaaS/Service

[11:21]

• For an agency implementing ClickUp project management for marketing agencies, Alex spots a mispricing/low-value customer issue.
• Insight: If your customers are already large enough to need a CRM, your price is probably far too low; find bigger clients willing to pay $6k+/month, avoid bargain-hunters (like on Upwork).

5. Custom Apparel Company: Segmentation and Scaling

[12:19]–[23:12]

• Guest: Apparel biz ($100k/month) sells mostly to colleges/fraternities with high conversion, low-ticket transactions; construction and summer camp clients are much higher ticket but less consistent.
• Challenge: Hard to quickly distinguish “small” vs. “whale” customers during outbound.
• Alex reframes: This is not a bug—“list segmentation and enrichment is part of what makes outbound effective.” Invest early in segmenting for high-ROI customers.
  • Quote:

    “If you take a longer perspective... you knowing who your customer is is going to be data that you absolutely have to have no matter what.” (Alex, 15:30)

• Scenario Analysis:
  • If college clients had super-high retention and grew LTV, could “just keep stacking” that vertical.
  • But the opportunity in higher-ticket segments (construction) is “100x leverage": same operational work, much bigger average deal size.
  • Don’t shut down the college vertical; assign an operator, and invest your focus in testing the higher-ticket segment.
  • Set up a test, validate retention. If the new segment works, go deep there—not wide across dozens of new verticals.
  • “Don’t have 100 verticals—commit to the biggest one.” (22:34)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On customer knowledge being foundational:

  “I would have added that as the first chapter of the offers book because so many people, just like, you have to start with the customer, and then from the customer, we reverse engineer the offer.” (Alex, 16:05)

• On content experimentation/risk:

  “If I have two videos of a certain style and packaging that are working, I don’t want to break that... I would prefer you keep your two videos a week that are your, you know, kind of standard, wider, et cetera thing and then do an additional video that’s gonna be the new thing.” (Alex, 05:45)

• On scaling and focus:

  “You’re doing too much… pick one of those channels to start out with and just do more on that one channel.” (Alex, 10:28)

• On vertical selection:

  “I don’t want you to have, like, 100 verticals. That’s not the point... I’m only kind of, like, signing off on this because of the crazy difference in value and the virtually no difference in operational effort.” (Alex, 22:34)

---

Important Timestamps

• 00:02 — Customer knowledge as foundational leverage
• 00:31–10:16 — Deep dive: medical clinic lead generation, content and funnel strategy
• 05:45 — Safeguarding your core content while testing
• 10:19–11:20 — Channel and pricing strategy for automation/SaaS agencies
• 12:19–23:12 — Apparel company: customer segmentation, vertical focus, list enrichment
• 15:30, 16:05 — The offers book, and why “customer first” underpins everything

---

Summary Takeaways

• Who you choose to target unlocks (or limits) every aspect of business leverage.
• Preserve what works as you experiment—add, don’t replace, when testing new approaches.
• Better > more > different: focus on quality and mastering your process before splintering into other verticals.
• Use data and customer insights to segment, prioritize, and out-leverage the competition.

---

Alex Hormozi delivers a playbook to avoid wasted effort, maximize leverage, and ensure your growth is built on the bedrock of truly knowing your customer.

Transcript

[A]

You knowing who your customer is is going to be data that you absolutely have to have no matter what. And so why would we delay something that's going to give us so much leverage on our messaging, our offer, our channels? Like, like, picking the customer is the first and most important thing that you can do in the business. And then your offer comes from the customer. Next caller is Ann. Okay, so you're on Hermozi hotline. Let's rock and roll. So you got $200,000 per month in revenue?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

All right, ad spend zero industry is medical men's sexual function. Ooh, this might be spicy. Indeed. Men's sexual function. Okay, and then your offer is lifestyle stem cells. Okay, so you're doing like. Yeah, you're doing full, like injections and all sorts of stuff. Okay, cool. And then we've got constraint is needs more qualified leads. Okay. Are you a doctor?

[B]

Yes, I'm a medical doctor. And we have a medical clinic that focuses mainly on sexual restoration. And yeah, we. We do stem cells and also shockwave therapy, multiple medical treatment, along with hormone replacement therapy and peptide therapy.

[A]

Dope. Okay, so is this brick and mortar? I'm guessing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, got it.

[B]

Where are you out of Virginia? It's right outside of D.C. fredericksburg.

[A]

Okay, cool. So. Okay, so talk to me. So what's the. What's the issue? You want more leads?

[B]

Yeah, so we have. All my leads come from my YouTube channel and also word of mouth and we have 150,000 subscribers and YouTube channel, and we have an application funnel through there. But we're. We're getting leads, but we're. When we're. Our team converts at 65%, but we're not getting the quantity of high of qualified lead that can afford our services ranging from 15,000 to $25,000. Because, I mean, they get result within five days. You know, we have a great offer. We're doing everything we do.

[A]

We can tell very clearly whether or not. Whether it works or not.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Do you. Do you do before and after pictures?

[B]

We want to get more qualified. Say that again.

[A]

So do you do before and after pictures? I'm joking. I'm joking. I'm kidding. Okay.

[B]

I'm getting testimonials.

[A]

Yeah, sure. Man, look at that thing. Just triumphant. Okay, got it. So you need to get more leads. YouTube's the primary channel and people who are coming in who are pop. Like, do people fly to you?

[B]

Yes, we have people coming in, actually international. We're having somebody from Hong Kong.

[A]

What percentage from the UK what percentage are local versus international.

[B]

Oh, I mean, US, it's probably like 90%.

[A]

Oh, no, I would like. If you're saying us, I'm gonna say most people that are traveling to you. Like if. I mean most people are traveling to you.

[B]

Yeah, I would say probably that will be 70%. Yeah, done.

[A]

Good enough for me. Okay, got it. So how many pieces of YouTube content are you putting out per week?

[B]

I only do two long form videos. Yeah, and so then my team cut off the long form video into short, which we post daily. Yeah, that's it.

[A]

Got it. Do you have the five CTAs that I mentioned earlier of, like those five places that you can do calls to action? Because that's like an immediate thing you can do that can just generate more leads. So one third of the way through videos?

[B]

Yeah, we, we've been doing that.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, we've been doing that.

[A]

Okay, got it. So but you're doing all five?

[B]

Uh, yeah, as of yesterday.

[A]

Oh, that's a faster doing four.

[B]

But now we're doing five.

[A]

Okay, got it. There we go. Hey, I'll take it. I'll take it. A little 20% improvement or 25%. Okay. So I mean, you, you kind of have, you're, you're in. You basically have two paths, right? So path one is how can we. Like, I don't think you necessarily need to make more content. Like you could, but I would rather you like. How much time do you spend prepping the packaging and the thumbnails and the headlines for the content that you make?

[B]

Oh, I don't do that. My video editor does that. And I think he probably spent maybe like eight to, maybe eight to 16 hours because he does, he, he does do two a week. So I would just say maybe two days.

[A]

Well, on the prep or on the post.

[B]

Prep and post. So I produce like four at a time and he does, he just couple shits. Like, you know.

[A]

Yeah. So every other week you do four videos.

[B]

Yeah, got it.

[A]

Okay, so I'll tell you this. Like, you're, you're a more experienced YouTuber. It's likely that the biggest improvements that you're going to get are on. On better rather than more for where you're currently at. And it's going to come down to like, I mean, some of the tools I said yesterday, like, Oneoften.com is a good tool for looking at packaging and saying, like, how can we look at other outlier, similar outlier packaging for videos that are either in the space or adjacent to it, and then how can we Match our thumbnail headline and introduction. Do you guys script out your introductions?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You are scripting your introductions?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. I actually use like AI to help me with the hooks and the intro. But most of it is really my content that I put out. And the one other thing about our channel is that it's grown because I was talking generalized like ed and I give everything away. So now I really, I will last three videos. I've been making more for entrepreneurs and executive because I wanted to target more of high, high ticket clients. And our views like absolutely plummeted down to like hundreds instead of thousands. So that, that was one of the things I wanted to ask you. Is that something we should be worried about since we're kind of target the message more for, you know, high, high ticket clientele.

[A]

So I'll tell you how I would make an adjustment or a test like this. So I never want to threaten my core business. And so if I have two videos of a certain style and packaging that are working, I don't want to break that. Cause like all of a sudden your revenue could cut in half and that would be not fun. Right. So I would prefer you keep your two videos a week that are your, you know, kind of standard, wider, et cetera thing and then do an additional video that's gonna be the new thing because in that way you can guarantee that you're gonna make more. And that way you can test it and not feel like you're risking your risking the whole business to make this test because it's the primary way of getting leads for you. And so I would really not wanna risk the entirety of my business for a test. That's a big test.

[B]

Right. I love that. I can definitely do that because I was thinking about doing more, but you said do better.

[A]

I do think that you can do better, but I think that if you're going to run this test on trying to attract higher level customers, I think that I would just add that in addition to the two videos you're doing. So then they'll bump you to three and you're going to probably get benefits from both. More, more volume. And I still think. And maybe your video editor can watch the replay of this. But like I would strongly recommend scripting out both verbally. And this is the part that people miss visually because you have a very physical profession. Obviously like you can't show certain things on your YouTube channel. But like you in, you know, a smock or not smock, whatever. The white lab coat, right? You got the, you got the Coat and you've got some tools and some machines and you've got some of those props that look like body parts behind you. I think all of those things kind of set the frame and proof promise plan and if you are using that as the setup for the introduction. But proof promise plan and if you want, you can introduce pain in there as well as kind of our four step way that we introduce all videos. And so I'd make sure that I have a sentence for each of those. Psych. And if you have a picture which kind of gives you a visual roadmap of what they're going to get, I think that that will also likely further aid in retention. So those are kind of like the quote, better things. And you can do that for all three of the videos you're going to make. But number one is you're going to go from two to three. The third one's going to be experimental. You're going to tighten up and script the introductions and the packages should be picked from outliers rather than just like something you find interesting. Like we already know that this packaging, this, the way that this image and the headline work are likely going to, to convert.

[B]

Yeah, I love that. That's, that's really good. I. What, what do you think about advertising online? Private jets and so forth? I was advised to do that to attract the clientele that we want.

[A]

I mean, you can try it again. I would just put that in my experimental bucket.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. I mean if you fly private as is, then yeah, just on your next pilot, you know, flight, just record.

[B]

Okay. Yeah, no, I love that. So make more content, but make better content. Yeah.

[A]

And add the third one.

[B]

We have a funnel. Can I ask you one more question about the funnel? Now the funnel that we had, I was listening to you at talking to another lady and our funnel is actually an application funnel to a book a call with our sales team. But if we are looking at more attracting more premium buyers, should we still continue doing that funnel or should we open up more on the higher part of the funnel?

[A]

I think you should drive more into like just put more in. This is why we're gonna do it. Like, I don't think you should. Like you're converting 65% of your leads. Your conversion process is not the constraint of this. So maybe there's things you can improve. But I, that's not where my focus will go. My focus would 100% be on making more and better content on YouTube. I do think that like, I would say like, do this experiment improve the pack, the packaging, the hooks upfront. The next thing would be running ads. But I just feel like the nature of this business is so, like, trust driven that I think organic. I mean, I think you've. I mean, you've already gotten the success you have because I think you. You started with the right strategy. I really just want to see, like, how do you get to a million views or. Sorry, a million. A million subscribers on your channel. Like, that would be like my mission. How do we get how many views a month you're getting?

[B]

Yeah, how many views? Well, it depends. If we put out pretty good one, it's probably about 10,000. That was our usual.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Depending on the video. But the last three on, I talk about executive and the intersection with sexual health. We got like hundreds.

[A]

Yeah. I think that you have a ton of room. If you're getting 10,000 per video, I think you have a ton of room for improvement. Like, especially based on the nature of what you have. Like, like, like you could for sure be at 100,000, 250,000 per video, for sure. No question.

[B]

Well, thank you. Yeah, we have about 10 videos that are almost a million.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right now. So. Yeah. So we may lean in more on those topics.

[A]

Okay. Rock and roll. Love it. Yeah. Just repeat your. Repeat your winners. All right, thank you.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

All right, talk soon.

[B]

Appreciate it.

[A]

Yep. Bye. Bye. Okay. Okay, so, Mike. Hey. 16. I do automation, helping business, save time, etc. I currently get leads or Facebook, Instagram, and email outreach advice on scale volume only. Thanks. Yeah, dude, you're doing. You're doing too much. You're doing, like, pick one of those channels to start out with and just do more on that one channel. So I think you're probably spread too thin if you're like trying to sell, trying to market, trying to deliver to customers. And you're also on three different channels. I would say do more, but on one of those so you can get better. Cool. Sweet. Rock and roll. What acquisition system would you. If you would sell ClickUp Project management systems for marketing agencies currently doing 15,000amonth. I'm guessing you have a pricing issue, because someone who's gonna be implementing a CRM is likely already doing, like, if they have so much work, they have to have like a project management system, you probably need to be charging way more. And so either you're going after the wrong customers, but it doesn't make sense. Cause if you're actually implementing this stuff into their business and like, they're probably bigger customers. So I think you're probably mispriced, number one. I would imagine upwork is also probably not the best place to find customers because it's like, people who are, like, absolutely the cheapest. So I think you're. I'll bet you that your mindset is super skewed to, like, upwork leads who are, like, cheap as hell. I would be doubling down on cold email and be looking at, like $6,000 plus, you know, per month retainers and probably selling projects that are in, like, the. We did one implementation like this. Well, how much did ours cost? Didn't we implement some sort of project management system inside of media? 40. So ours was 40. So to give you an idea, so that was like, just for one project, and they had more than one customer. All right, so you probably are just, like, wildly undercharging. And I think cold email would be the best way to double down on it. Hopefully that helps. Max. All right, McKinsey, you are on Hermozy hotline. Okay. Monthly revenue is $100,000. Rock and roll. Good. You got cold outreach. Got it. You're doing your custom apparel. Okay. Custom apparel. Interesting offer is apparel for colleges and college organizations. So, like fraternities and stuff? Yep. All right.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Colleges. Okay. And then the constraint is called outbound. Works economically, but too many unqualified leads. Okay, so does that mean that. How are you getting your leads right now?

[C]

Just scraping. So basically, we're just trying to find contacts for these organizations, primarily through, like, Instagram, and then we just reach out to all of them cold.

[A]

Okay, what's the model as far as.

[C]

Like, how do we make our money? So basically, we handle the design side for all the apparel, and then we outsource the manufacturing. And so we're just kind of act as a middleman and mark that up and so on all of our orders, we average about 35% gross margins.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So is that $100,000 a month your slice, or is that. That's top line. Okay, got it. So you got 35ish of gross margin left over. Yeah, 100. Okay.

[C]

And so what's happening when we reach out to these different organizations is basically it's very hard to segment between who we think is going to end up being a big customer with, like a high lifetime value. We have some customers who are going to spend, you know, $70,000 a year with us versus others that are going to spend $1500 a year. And it's just really hard for us to identify, like, what are the markers that make a customer in which group you Know.

[A]

Yeah. So yeah. And you've. And you. Is there a reason that, I mean, you focus on colleges just because they were easy to reach out to decision makers?

[C]

Yeah. So that, that was kind of, that was going to be the second part. Basically what I found so far is like we're reaching out to the colleges. We've got the process really dialed in. So we have like a pretty good conversion rate. Like it, it's easy for us to acquire customers. But what I actually noticed is that's what we focus our outbound on. But the AOV for the colleges is maybe like 12, 1500 bucks. We have other customer segments that are spending way more per order than per year.

[A]

So let's talk about this.

[C]

We just haven't really figured out the acquisition as much.

[A]

Okay, so what are those segments?

[C]

Construction is a big one and also summer camps. But the thing with those, I kind of run into the same issue because, you know, I might reach out to two construction companies. One of them, they don't order like any apparel, and then another one orders like, you know, $50,000 a year. So. Yeah, I'm still just trying to figure out how to know.

[A]

I just want to reframe it a little bit for you. So if you know that like. Okay, well, construction seems like on average they're worth like 25 times more. Something like that. That sound close to right?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so if you have some like duds and some good ones, but they're worth 25 times more, then I'd rather just do the duds and good ones. Play with in general people that are worth 25 times more.

[C]

Yeah, because I mean, I'm running into the same issue either way. So it's just basically targeting higher value customers.

[A]

I'll say it differently. Like this is a feature, not a bug. Like this is just part of what, what you have to do with outreach and like list segmentation and list. List enrichment is like part of what makes outreach effective.

[C]

Yeah. So do you think like, basically on the last live stream, you know, I kind of went through the five ends and I realized it is data that's holding us back from being able to scale.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

So I've already started, you know, having my dev, like build out different stuff to help us practice data better. And I'm kind of wondering, like, should I be focusing a ton of my time on trying to figure out like, and identify the segments?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, more specifically, like what makes this construction company spend more money or should I be focusing on volume?

[A]

No, get the data right. Like if you take a longer perspective on the business. Right. You knowing who your customer is is going to be data that you absolutely have to have no matter what. And so why would we delay something that's gonna give us so much leverage on our messaging, our offer, our channels? Like picking the customer is the first and most important thing that you can do in the business. And then your offer comes from the customer. Like, the one regret that I have in the offers book is that I would have added in your first customer, which is, I think, the first chapter in Lost Chapters, I would've added that as the first chapter of the offers book because so many people, just like, you have to start with the customer, and then from the customer, we reverse engineer the offer.

[C]

Yeah. And that's like, one of the reasons why we target, like, fraternity and sororities is because on a per unit basis, like, they spend more per shirt, but that the, you know, 50 shirts at a time versus 5,000.

[A]

Yeah. So we just have to look at absolute profit per order. And then I would just, like, that's. That should be like North Star. So what is it? So if we have, you know, 50 shirts with, you know, 50% margins versus 5,000 shirts with 20% margins, we'd still rather have 5,000. Because you're a middleman anyways.

[C]

Yeah. It doesn't take any more work.

[A]

Right. So, like. Right. So, like, let's go sell the bigger people and expect that we're going to have some that are smaller. But if we're shooting for 5,000 orders, your. Your small ones all of a sudden are going to be 500 orders instead of 50.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. And I, you know, honestly, like, even though we don't have the data yet, that's kind of. After the last couple of calls, like, I realized that is the direction we need to go in. And I'm trying to figure out how we should make that transition. Because, you know, it's like you always say, like, more than better than different. And I feel like I could be doing more and better, but I'm choosing to do different because it's just a better model.

[A]

Yeah, well, you're. I mean, you're reaching out to me, so, I mean, I make these rules. I can break them. So you're in an instance where, like, unless you had a way that it was like, I'll say it differently, like, you could for sure double outreach, and the business would probably double. And it's just like, I think there's just so much more meat in these other industries because, like, I think you'll. I don't want to see. You'll cap this out because, like, you could for sure become like, oh, maybe I'll think about, like this. These are the conditions under which I would stick with what you're currently doing. Right. I would stick with what you're currently doing. If you knew that those college customers would become lifetime customers. If you knew that every single one of those college organizations would just always order, you know, $1,500 a year worth of gross profit and you just knew that you were keeping 80 to 90% per year, then this business would just continue to stack. And then over time, you build this kind of like, monopoly within the colleges of like the default T shirt guy. Right. That would be the condition under which I would, I would continue to pursue the colleges. And maybe you could just say, like, okay, well, how do we retain revenue better? How do we get these people to reorder? Can we reach out to them more regularly so that they're buying four times a year instead of two, etc. Etc. That would be that path. But you were.

[C]

I would say that we're kind of in that situation.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

I mean, we've been doing this for a few years now. We don't have, like, really any term. Like, our turn level is like extremely low. And we're very proactive, like you said, trying to get people to order more. Like, we're trying to bring up the order frequency, bring up the aob. But at the end of the day, it's like, I could, I could probably just leave this running. Like, leave my operator just continuing that side of the business.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And then maybe shift my time towards focusing on these other, you know, targets.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Building up that acquisition system.

[A]

I hear you. I would do the other thing that's bigger. I'll be honest. I would do that. And that's normally not the advice that I would give because, like, the for sure bet, like, if I had to say, how do I guarantee that you go from 100k a month to, you know, 250k a month? I would say, dude, just triple what you're currently doing. That would be for sure, my bet. Because you're keeping the customers you have, you know, gross profit that's there and it'll just continue to stack. That would be my, like, if we had to bet. But if you're like, I want to get to, you know, 20 million a year or something like that. I don't know. What are your goals? I should have asked that earlier. What are your goals?

[C]

That's my goal. I'm trying to get to, like, 10, 20.

[A]

Yeah. Then I think you just need. You're gonna. You just want to get. You want to make. Get paid more per. And it's the same number, same level.

[C]

Yeah, Yeah.

[A]

I mean, you, like, you could do more, but then we'd be asking the question, okay, how do we go from your current outreach level volume to, like, how do we truly. And I mean this truly, like, how do we actually do 10 to 50 times the outreach? Like, you could do that. That would be still probably less risk.

[C]

Not feasible with this target market.

[A]

Okay, well, then if that's that, then if we go metrics and then market, which is the next m. Right. Then. Then I would rather go construction. That's bigger whales. If that's the market that you feel better with. I don't normally say that, but I think that it's probably what makes sense. And here's. Here's the great part. If you do it and you just fall flat on your face and you find out something that, like, actually makes construction suck, you could always just go back to the college and then just. And then say, okay, well, my. My for sure path of. Of. Of growing this business is like, I will 10x my outreach. That is your for sure path. You can always go back and do that. But if you have an opportunity where you can get. Literally, you're talking about 50 short orders versus 5,000. It's a hundred X the leverage. Then I'm like, I really want to look at something like that.

[C]

Yeah, that makes sense. And I guess, like, I just need to treat it as, like, a test. Like, I don't need to, like, shut down my business and start doing construction.

[A]

Like, God, no.

[C]

You know, start building out another channel.

[A]

Yeah. I don't normally say this, but when you. When I see 100x difference and you're at the size you're at, I'd rather you. I'd rather you look there.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah, bro, that's like. That's what I'm thinking. Like, I've been thinking the same thing you're saying, but I'm like, oh, this goes against all the advice.

[A]

I know. I mean, that's why you call. That's where we're cool. Feel all right.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

All right. Sweet.

[C]

Yeah, that's what I'm gonna do then.

[A]

Just don't burn down the existing business. Have your operator still run it. Make sure it's still good. The things that you want to make sure that you. Like, what are the things you want to Validate for the new market is you want to make sure as fast as possible that they reorder. As long as you have that, then you're have revenue retention, you're good to go.

[C]

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean. Okay, let me ask you this. This is when I view this business, like, the reason that we're able to penetrate the college market so well is because, you know, we target all of our marketing around that. Like, if you go to our website, that that's the avatar we're trying to serve.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I've considered basically building out, maybe have, like, different websites for different niches. So, like, I just replicate everything we did for college, but into construction and kind of serve a whole nother avatar. I don't know if that makes sense, but, like, build a customer journey around them. And I just. I don't know if that's maybe like, a. Not the smartest way to scale is doing, like, more.

[A]

No, I don't want you to do, like, many different verticals. I definitely. No, no, I want you to commit to one of these things. And so we're like, this is a potential 100x in terms of leverage for this type of avatar, which is the only. Like, if you were like, there were three times as much, I'd be like, screw it, dude. Just do more of the college thing. When you said 50,000 in order versus 1500, like, that is a very big difference, and it's the same level of work for you. So at that point, that's why I'm like. I'm like, it is only because of the unique characteristics of that thing. The only other thing that we'd want to make sure is that you have revenue retention. There's. Once you have that, there's more than enough construction firms for you get to 20 million a year. No question.

[C]

Yeah, 100.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[A]

All right.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Rock and roll.

[C]

But don't. Don't spread it out. Like, focus my someone.

[A]

Yeah, I don't want you to have, like, 100 verticals. That's not the point. Like, you knew colleges. Like, every one of these ones, you have different nuances, different acquisition things, different sales. Like, you have to learn all that stuff again. But, like, I'm. I'm only kind of, like, signing off on this because of the crazy difference in value and the virtually no difference in operational effort. So it's like, you don't have to relearn how to. How to be a middleman for shirt ordering. Right. It's like, it's the same thing. We're just targeting a different person. And then we only have to figure out one thing, which is that required that customer versus the other. And once we have that, the rest of the business works the same. We make, you know, 20, 30, 40 times more. That's why I'm saying I think it makes sense.

[C]

Yeah, that's exactly right. That is the only difference. All right, cool, man.

[A]

That's perfect.

[C]

That's a game plan.

[A]

All right. Rock and roll. Appreciate you, man.