← The GaryVee Audio Experience
The GaryVee Audio Experience
Chris Williamson | The Power of Building Influence, Authenticity, & Connection
01:48:41
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- [00:00]
A
This is the GaryVee audio experience.
- [00:05]
B
What do you think most people don't understand about how attention works?
- [00:13]
A
How long are we in this? This could take the entire show. I think that there's many things I think for the corporate marketer that's watching right now or listening, meaning someone that works at a company, right? Not like an advanced company, let's call it the Fortune 50,000, not even 5. They don't realize that they're living in a academia boardroom environment on attention. They're trading on potential attention, not actualized attention, historic attention, not actualized attention. They're not day trading attention. They're buying attention of the past. Even though I think deep down they know they're not buying it. Meaning for simple terms for everyone, by the way. Hi everyone, thanks for having me on the show. The reason most companies still spend an ungodly amount of money on television, outdoor billboards, print ads, banner ads or pre rolls or bad digital stuff is because their internal reports say there's a tension there. And so the way corporate works is based on boardroom and fake reports. So I think that whole set, what they don't understand is where the actual attention is. Do I think they know? Do I think the 48 year old that works at Tesla or BMW or Mountain Dew, do I think they know? The 62 year old, do I think they know? I think they actually really know. But I think they also know that if they buy TikTok media, that that hasn't made its way into their media agency conglomerate, their corporation, and it won't show up as roas positive return on investment. Pos. So what? And I think because of that they're not practitioners. When I went through Covid on Zoom with hundreds of CMOs, cause now we had the opportunity to do that, I was not flabbergasted, but I was reminded how most of my great friends and contemporaries in corporate America marketing are so far away from being a practitioner of social media, creative, of what's going on with micro influencers, of my belief that people like yourself are going to really disrupt cbg. Because not only have you built organic audiences, not only do you know how to make actual content that people want to watch, but then even when you do advertising, you can outflank them because you understand that the first second of a video on a TikTok or Instagram matter, that the thumbnail matters, that the copy matters, the slang, the terminology, and more importantly, that you know that you'd rather spend your money on social creative media or influencers. Over so many other behaviors they do. So that's where attention is completely misunderstood in private equity, venture capital, Wall street corporations, Fortune 5000 Madison Avenue, on the art world side, all the people that are more than half of the people that are watching right now, emerging influencers, creators, entrepreneurs, hustlers, grinders, the ambitious. I don't think they understand that it's everything. And then thus they're playing at a seven. Like the people that we all see in our feeds, our circles, the Austin, Miami, Louisiana, the crew. I think everyone's at a 7, meaning they might have Instagram or TikTok down, they might be doing a podcast, they might be vlogging, they might know who the micro influencers are. They've watched me from the OG OG days all the way through all the beasts and the Pauls and the D'Amelios and the Nelk boys and the you's and like they've seen it all. But I don't think on a day to day, this is why I called it day trading attention. I don't think when I look at the best, the people with millions of followers, I can see that they're still doing 16 months ago tactics, four months ago tactics. Whether it's the thumbnail, the copy, the carousel, and definitely for the A players, why they're not A plus, why they're B minus. They don't fuck with LinkedIn enough. They either are YouTube shorts or TikTok or Spotlight Snap or Instagram. And they're not all. There are very few people on earth and I'm proud to be one of them that is actually doing day to day, creative, organic, social on all of them, and I mean all of them and takes YouTube short nuances very seriously. Different than what X Twitter does. And so for the A players, the B players, the reason they're not A plus is they're not diversified enough against enough platforms. And they're not, once they hit, they start to get distracted about other things, rightfully so. They expand, they start CPGs, they start going to Coachella and hooking up, they start doing, they start thinking about other things and it doesn't allow them. And every one of them knows it, right? Like think about the contemporary set. It's fun that Coachella just happened. Every one of them knows it, that when they were 16, 19, 23, 27, they were 24, 7 obsessed with whatever they were obsessed with. And then when they start winning a little bit, they take a little of the petal and they start smelling the roses and that's amazing. But it means that there's opportunity. And for a lot of them, they've plateaued. Right. Four years ago, when I was yelling about TikTok, a lot of people wanted to stay in Instagram because they had a million followers there, and it was good for their ego. And so they didn't want to start at zero on TikTok. And now what's happened is a lot of those influencers, creators, entrepreneurs, are rushing to catch up. And what I wanted to do in this book is tell everybody, like, attention is it. It's like working out. You're in great shape. Clearly, like, okay, you could do it well for four years, but if you take off for two years, like, shit's gonna happen. And I just want people to stay on it. And so what I think that people misunderstand that attention is very detailed. Like, I just broke down two sets. There's many more, but it's very nuanced and detailed.
- [06:06]
B
Within it seems like the two big groups, there are one. Despite the fact that social media is almost everything that people spend their time on their phones doing, it's still underpriced, undervalued by the most.
- [06:18]
A
Yes, definitely corporations. And there's all the money up there. So it allows us kids.
- [06:23]
B
That's your competitive advantage. Correctly. Closer to. And then the second side of that to be, I guess, like a combination of even people whose jobs are social media. Still a misunderstanding of how much leverage is available, about how broad to go and about how deep to go. And then this temptation to take your eye off the ball if some success does come, you know, yes, almost everybody is less successful than they would like to be. Almost everybody is a C to Z list player that's listening and not a B or an A grade player. Which means that the thing, the incentive and the impetus, which is going to slow down the people at the very top is the competitive advantage for the people that are further down the land.
- [07:03]
A
Correct.
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B
Pull this sucker in a little bit for me.
- [07:06]
A
You got it. That's exactly right. And the reason I framed it as day trading. Attention.
- [07:12]
B
Yeah, tell me about that.
- [07:12]
A
Well, I think day trading is something. Not everybody knows what that is, but a lot of people know what that is. And that's a very different way of buying stocks than the way I buy them. Like, I'll be like seven years ago, I'm like, you know what? Netflix is gonna win. I'm gonna buy some Netflix and I'm gonna go to fucking sleep. And you got maniacs right now all over the world.
- [07:33]
B
So you've got like, create aggressively but trade lazily.
- [07:36]
A
Yes. And so for me, I wanted people to understand that tension is that way too. And so I'm glad that you crushed it and went from obscurity to a million YouTube subscribers. And you're crushing, but you're 23 and you still have huge ambitions and you're talking all sorts of shit, that you're the next MrBeast. But guess what? I know you're not because you've already taken the foot off the pedal the last month and shit's happened. And by the way, that's okay. I'm not here to say be a fucking psycho. I'm just saying the game is psycho. And if you wanna play it, you have an opportunity. And you have to think of it this way, because the styles, the jokes, the slang, the platforms, the algorithms, all of it's moving nanosecond by nanosecond. And either you're about that fucking life or you're not.
- [08:16]
B
You'll love this. So my housemate Zach is way more terminally online than I am. I don't use TikTok personally, but Z does. And he is an honorary CMO of my company, Chief meme officer. And he will tell me six months before something becomes mainstream on Instagram, what's going to be the new meta on TikTok?
- [08:39]
A
That's right.
- [08:39]
B
Six months after it's mainstream on Instagram, it then becomes the new meta, kind of. It breaks out into mainstream media, like at the moment, the like pedestrian cooked gasoline maxing, like walk pilled cities of America. You know, whether it's being dialed or locking in, like all of the language moves so quickly. And he'll tell me about the new meta and then we'll use it in ads on utonic, and then that'll spin away and I'll need to keep checking in with him. I'll need to get the weather report.
- [09:09]
A
Yesterday I was in San Francisco getting a coffee before my talk. Guy in line says, oh my God, Gary Vee, you know, very flattering, nice little chat. Guy who rings us up is a dude has nail polish, rings us up. He taps me after we had a nice pleasantry and I took a picture with him, he taps me on the shoulder again. He goes, do you remember, like a couple years ago you said male makeup was gonna hit? He's like, look at the guy who just rung us up. I'm seeing that everywhere. I'm like, yeah. He's like, how'd you know that? I'm like, I live in the Fucking dirt. Your buddy Z lives in the dirt. The end. You're either an A and R. This is an old music thing. Back in the 80s, how'd you 70s, how'd you discover Metallica or Guns N Roses? You had to be fucking up at 2:00 in the morning and going to the bars and that's how you discovered Nirvana. You either were an A and R that not only put in the work and was out to 2 in the morning, 3 in the morning in LA, in Seattle and New York at hip hop clubs. You also had the ear, right? So Zach, your buddy is not only putting in the time, there's a fuckload of people putting in the time. He clearly has a talent to have a sense, he has a smell of what might hit.
- [10:18]
B
Yeah, he's picking up trends and okay, so let's say that someone isn't toward the top of the tree. Where do people fall short when it comes to building relevancy and attention online.
- [10:31]
A
Now in 2024, right, this nanosecond as we film and record this, the biggest framework perspective issue in the game is people make content for selfish reasons versus selfless reasons. The number one thing that I think hurts people that are not winning is because, look, some people are just gonna be attractive enough, some people are just gonna be charismatic enough, some people are just gonna have enough experience and expertise in something that it's gonna be enough.
- [10:59]
B
You want a tactic that's more reliable and scalable than that.
- [11:02]
A
Yeah, I mean, just like the three things I just mentioned, that's just a DNA game or a circumstance game for me. I wasn't attractive enough. Maybe I was charismatic enough, but I started making business content at 34. I'd already been doing it my whole life and I'd already built a very large business on day trading attention on email, search, YouTube, social. So I had the skills. I wasn't 18. I'd lived through it already and could speak to it. Right. Not that 18 year old, by the way. For all the 18 year olds I was hustling since I was 10, I had things to say at 18 that were right, but I had experience. I think for the rest of the crew that isn't that yet. There's so much opportunity. But I think even for the people that have the luck of the draw or the ones that don't, the big game is most people make content to become famous, rich to scratch their own egos and insecurities. It's selfish, I can tell you right now. No question, the biggest reason I think A lot of things work for me and things I observe in others is when I post something, I'm like, what's in it for them? One of the reasons I never post, like, bougie shit is I don't understand what's in it for the audience. When you show them that you're drinking champagne on a private plane once in a while, when I say this, I'll get a DM or a text from a buddy. Be like, no, bro, it's aspirational. I'm like, bro, there's unlimited aspirational shit out there. You don't need to contribute it. Fuck you. You're doing it to flex. So for me, the first thing that people need to think about is, why is this good? Now, if you're a magician that does card tricks on TikTok, it's good because that's entertainment. It's the reason people go to Vegas shows. It's why we watch tv. Entertainment's good, humor's good. King Bach, he brings value. He makes me laugh. Then there's people that give information, inspiration. There's a lot of things you can do, right? And so I think the framework of what's in it for them versus what's in it for me will really help most people listening right now, especially given, like, how sharp I think the audience that listens to you is. They're thinking of it very smartly from a business standpoint, from a level like, it's the game, right? It's the game. If they just added a little bit of, like, yes, I understand. You're trying to figure out what will go viral, what will over index, what will work, how do I make it happen? How do I build myself up? I want to be a speaker. I want to have a podcast. I want to be an actor. I want to own a sports team, whatever. Just fuck, man. Just something of, like, can you say something or do something that actually will bring value to someone? Before we started this, you're like, hey, mate, the book went pretty deep on the content. That's how I thought about writing the book. We literally had this convo right before we started. The fuck am I writing this book for? Because I was ready to go so detailed, because I know that people that are good, like winners, the kids, the Zachs out there that they're gonna listen on audio or read the book, and they're gonna get their fucking $19 worth or whatever the fuck Amazon's gonna sell it for, because they're gonna get one tactic, one that tweaks it and Gets them value. And so I think the first thing that they need to focus on is the perspective of what's in it for them. I know why you're doing it. You want. What do they want? What's good for them.
- [14:04]
B
Adding value, you know, but in a.
- [14:06]
A
Real fucking fundamental way. Like in the same way that those corporate fuckers know they're buying bullshit and not social. I'm asking all the hustlers, all the winners, you know, you're doing this for you. Just add a little fucking something for them.
- [14:20]
B
How can you judge that? Because it's very difficult to extract our own ego from the desire to grow our online platform. We want to be validated by the world.
- [14:28]
A
Even. Even the most delusional, the most not conscious of us. I just believe in the human spirit when I say this. I think even the ones that are the least in touch with our feelings, the ones that have done the least amount of mental work, the ones that are most cynical, even those people, I think, as they're listening to us right now, can have a sense of when they post something, Are they trying to bring value to the person on the other side at all?
- [14:53]
B
Have you got a Muhad and fast rule than that?
- [14:56]
A
No, I don't.
- [14:57]
B
I think, you know, here's one from a friend, George Mack, please. He has Mac's content Raiser. Would you consume your own content? If not, don't post it.
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A
Yeah, I think. I think that's wonderful. I think the reason I say no, I don't and why I think that's wonderful. I think it all sits in the same cousin tree of analogies that one can use in this moment. It's not super complicated. What's in it for them? Is this good? Did you say something that brings value? Whether you're being vulnerable and creating a connect vulnerability is a powerful one. There's a lot of people winning out there. This was interesting, literally when I landed last night, late last night. I've been traveling like crazy this week. I literally tweeted, man, it's been a week. And I was.
- [15:38]
B
I saw the photo of you in the back of your camera.
- [15:39]
A
Yeah, exactly. And I was like, this has just like, been. I was without context. And this is why written word has no context. I was really like. I didn't want to spell it all out. I just kind of wanted to go with a quick tweet. I was talking from the lens of like, man, this feels like 2016, right? It was like New York to Miami, Miami to West Palm, West Palm to Miami, Miami to San Francisco, San Francisco to Austin, back to New York, like, at midnight tonight, then Saturday, Utah, back to New York, all in one day. Like, I'm like, ooh, this is 2015 life. But I had a lot of people hit me up on dm, on Instagram, be like, you cool? Cause they're not used to. They interpret it as like, maybe I'm struggling or having a pothole or something. And that was very lovely. And it reminded me how much vulnerability stops people in their tracks, provides values, allows people to be compassionate towards you. And so there's a lot of ways to bring value. I think Max Rule is absolutely right. Like, would you consume it? I'm always like, what's in it for them? That's the one. I go into my brand. What's in it for them?
- [16:36]
B
Talk to me about the role of authenticity online.
- [16:38]
A
Now, look, I think people talk a lot about this, and I think it's obviously very important. And the reason I think about it from importance is I don't think it's very important short term. I think it's incredibly important long term. Let me explain. Authenticity is something that gets exposed out over time. You know that this, I think, is going to really land for you and a lot of listeners. Lots of people are tricking lots of people in the short term. So the reason I like authenticity is why I'm on book seven, why I'm still here, why in the 2007, 8, 9 social media world of just Twitter and a little bit of Facebook, there was a lot of personalities. And by the way, I was probably the front runner to not be around a year later, because I came out and I'm so loud. I'm so over the top. I'm so ridiculous. And in 2007, cursing and casual dressing was so not in vogue. And I remember the whispers in the backstages. I read the tweets of, like, the wine guy from Jersey, Gary Vee, or whatever his name is. He'll be gone in a year. That's clearly just sizzle. And so for me, authenticity speaks to, like, why I'm still here in 24 and why almost everybody I met in 2007 is not here. And I think, you know, what is the importance of it? I think it's an incredible indicator of longevity. I think in the short term, it's hard to dissect. Most people don't really know people. People pop out, they get hot for their looks, their smarts, their what have you. What I like about authenticity is I think it is incredibly grounded in the marathon More than the sprint. So I think for all the kids that are listening, good news. You can win in the short term with not being authentic. You can fake the funk, you can trick people to fucking at scale, especially with AI coming, all sorts of shit. You'll be able to trick the fuck out of people for a little while and then you'll be exposed. And then what are you gonna do with the rest of your 90 years of life?
- [18:27]
B
Well, hypocrisy on the Internet is like catnip for people because do you remember, you ever play, you might not have been to a British pub in sort of the 2000s. There were these touch screen games that would spot the difference and it was done with a timer and you had to hit the differences between the two things. Hypocrisy is basically like an ideological equivalent of that game. You said this thing in the past, you did this thing in the future. I can compare what you stated from what you did or what you said and what you said. And I see there's a discordance here. And I'm gonna bring it to bear because it's so perfectly designed for social media, because I have the screenshot of the thing that happened before or the video, and I have the video now. And people can compare and contrast.
- [19:06]
A
Yes, two dynamics of that one for everyone who's listening. That doesn't mean you're not allowed to change your mind, of course. I think that's one of the most powerful, wonderful things of a human. And to your point, if one then goes and owns, that speaks to losses, says, hey, I used to, now I. So a you're in control of that. To your point, when you're trying to say you didn't, that starts to kill the lack of authenticity. The other thing that's interesting about what you just said is man, Deepfake videos. What a game changing reality we're about to walk into. Like, you know, one of the things I think a lot about is, is that people find what they're looking for. So if you're looking for negativity, you're gonna find it. If you're looking for positivity, you're gonna find it. I think with all these fake videos, I mean, the amount of videos of you and I that will be on the Internet in the next seven years, next 10 years of things we never said, literally in a decade from today, most people will not believe any of the videos they see on the Internet because there'll be more fake ones than real ones. We're going into such a Wild era that is gonna reset so many things of truth, hypocrisy, things of that nature. But, yes, I have enjoyed that. I'm with you on what you just said. It's been interesting to watch that.
- [20:14]
B
I got asked by a friend probably about a year ago, can I give you.
- [20:17]
A
I apologize. Can I give you a great example? Because I don't think a lot of people sit in both the creator, influencer, entrepreneur world and in the Fortune 500 marketing world. My favorite hypocrisy happens in corporate America. When you're the CEO of an old music company, you're like, print tv, it's awesome. And then they go and get a job at Facebook or Twitter or Snapchat, and they're like, social media is number one. But I'm like, two weeks ago you just said that TV was number one. The hypocrisy of corporate animals based on what they're selling is at the highest level.
- [20:46]
B
What's funny about that is that's such a vaulted world that very few of us are going to see.
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A
Correct?
- [20:51]
B
See what people LinkedIn post or tweet or Instagram story or whatever. But that thing that you maybe get to see in boardrooms and C suites.
- [21:00]
A
And stuff like that, or if you just, you know, most of the people listening don't read Ad Age or Ad Week or PR Week. That's right. Right. And so this little industry that spends all of the $70 billion on television, all the crazy shit that goes on in the world in marketing, this goes back to the really exciting part of this conversation. And this book to me is the biggest companies in the world are blowing it. Individual little human beings like you and I have the ability to get market share in a way that has never existed in the history of mankind.
- [21:30]
B
Just to round out the authenticity piece, please. I think I heard this sentence a couple of years ago and I haven't been able to stop thinking about it. Speedrunning, authenticity, people trying to do that. And that's what you were talking about before. Like, how can I growth hack my way to seeming like I'm telling the truth, seeming like I'm actually putting me into my content. So I've been working very hard on this over the last six months or so. When I first started the show, I wanted to be seen as a justifiable, verifiable, reliable intellect. I wanted to have. I was coming out of a time being a reality TV person, model, club promoter, professional party boy. And I wanted to signal I am someone with really sexual chops. Right So I almost sort of counter signaled from opening up. I thought that that was sort of unrational and unsophisticated. You know, if my hero is someone like a Jordan Peterson or a Sam Harris, you know, I'm not seeing them getting super emotional. Some of that changes now. Anyway. Recently I've tried to put more of myself into the content. Two things has happened. First thing is when I get compliments about it, when I'm recording it, I feel better. When I get compliments about it, they genuinely land because I invested some of myself into it. But the other part is I actually think that. I think that people see the humanity on the other side of that. Like the way that it makes people feel when you put some of you into it. Not just playing the role. Anyone can win by saying the right mouth noises. It's, can you do that and it actually be you? That's the question. And there is a way you're right. Over a long enough time scale, you're rolling the dice of playing a role. Eventually you might get rumbled. You might thread the needle and dance through the minefield and get out the other side. Fine. But none of that success is going to land with you. In any case, it's gonna be hollow because on the other side of that, it's going to be you. Looking back on this illustrious history of you being somebody else, is that success? It doesn't look like success to me.
- [23:28]
A
I think that was extremely well said and it was funny. I wanted to let you roll, but all my urges, because I love to jump in and I know I get razz for that at times, but it's just how my brain processes. The way you started that whole soliloquy was the most interesting part. Everyone is dead on arrival on authenticity when they start a sentence with I want it to be seen as. It was crazy how my spidey senses went off when you started that. Because what I realized was when you said that was like, right. That's why this has always worked for me. I've never had the ability to be seen as. There was just something that triggered me so early in my life. This is why I was such a poor student. I never valued being seen as. I didn't have that gear. I went through high school without feeling peer pressure, which in hindsight is like insanity. That's almost like robotic. Sometimes I even like razz myself for like, do you have feelings? Are you a robot? Like, that's not right. And of course I do. And of course there was micro moments of it. But Yeah, I think it's a beautifully well said thing, brother. And I think if you're sitting at home right now and saying, I want to be seen as you're gonna put yourself in a vulnerable spot because you're putting the weight of subjective opinions on the outside over your own peace of mind of navigating your game.
- [24:50]
B
Well, ultimately, if I look at a lot of the creators that I really love personally for me, that I actually care about and I have a lot of faith in, Mike Israel is a good example of this. He's been on the show. He's the founder of renaissance periodization. Big Jim, bro. All he does is make incredibly sus jokes and break down exercise science better than anybody else on the Internet.
- [25:12]
A
There you go.
- [25:12]
B
And that's him. And I've hung out with him on camera and off camera and we've had phone calls and he is the same guy on and off. And that's him. And as he changes, his content will change, but it's not like his content changes and then he changes to catch up with it. Like he's leading from the front, personally. And yeah, I think that, I think that trying to realize. Here's the final thing as well, just the point on authenticity, if you do, you, you can never get it wrong.
- [25:42]
A
Of course not. Because the only game in life is to mitigate regret. And if you live a fake life, you could have a trillion dollars. All the girls, all the guys, all the trips, all the handbags, all the Lamborghinis. I promise you, I know unlimited 70 to 90 year olds that have all the stuff, who are not living happy lives, who feel empty, who have deep regrets. And so yes, of course, what have.
- [26:10]
B
Been the biggest changes in the type of content that works online across the life cycle trajectory since you started creating to now?
- [26:20]
A
Wow. You know, I started creating February 20th or 21st, 2006. That's when I did my first episode of Wine Library tv. And so a lot has changed. You know, it's funny, my early instincts ended up becoming the game. One of the reasons I had a lot of eyes on me back in 2006, 07 was I was doing long form video on YouTube and then I started doing it on a site called Viddler. That was a big early mistake of my career. There was this competitor to YouTube called Viddler that had tagging and I was doing such long videos and people wanted to see the third wine I was reviewing. So the tagging at, at the bottom, you could click the little button and get to the third Wine was like this profound technology. That's right. Well, it didn't exist then. Yeah. Anyway, nonetheless, so much has changed. First of all, all of social media content in 2006, 7, 8 as public creators and influencers was only Silicon Valley elite. There was no normal people on it. Going back to club life. So many of my New York friends and LA friends that are of my age who I didn't know because I was working in the liquor store and I was working all the time, I didn't do as much nightlife. But a lot of them I know now and they've built their careers and everyone's kind of on, you know, found each other. They talk often about the 2006 7, 8 era of like these social media people, myself included, Zuckerberg, Evan Williams, Travis from Uber of like oh, we thought those people were nerds. Like that wasn't cool. So the 2006 7, 8, 9 creators influencers content was more intellect, more business, more so more innovation, more techie. There was no. Nobody was cool. There was nothing cool about it. And so a lot of it was. If you go look back at, I mean if. I bet you if you read the first 10 million tweets, which I assume from 2006 to 2000, I don't know how long it took them to get there. It is nerd. It's engineers, it's front end designers, it's Python and Ruby on Rails engineers, it's startup founders, it's VCs and it's not VCs today, which is like cool bro Gym bros that are also VCs. It was fucking finance, it was coders, it was nerds. I was. When I tell you I was like a charity prod. I was like the industry. The Web 2.0 Silicon Valley industry would point to me a lot in 2006, 7, 8, 9, because I was a wine store owner in New Jersey of like see, this isn't just San Francisco. I was like an enigma. So that was that. Also nobody thought in what I played out here. Nobody was thinking about this in like deep strategy. First of all, the biggest thing that changed is social media for the first decade was email marketing. Amass as many followers as you can and a certain percentage of them will see it every time you post. Now in the last three years we've lived through the TikTok iFoodation of all social media now.
- [29:26]
B
What you mean Money said we now.
- [29:27]
A
Live in a social media world where somebody listening right now that 17 year old you and I does not even have a profile Starts a TikTok account and her or his third post gets 2 million views. That didn't exist ever for the first decade. It couldn't happen. She would have only had 11 followers. Now the tiktokification, the for you pagification of every platform, the AI algorithms, the it is now around interests, not around who you follow means that every individual piece of of content now has the potential to reach a level of awareness that is far outreaching the effort. You've put it into it. It's the ozempic and steroids of social media.
- [30:08]
B
It's made social media much more egalitarian.
- [30:10]
A
Bingo. The meritocracy that we're living in right now, I'd always know when I like, we're talking about something important right now. This is how I always write.
- [30:19]
B
The goosebumps are animalistic.
- [30:23]
A
You mean to you? Yes, you are very handsome. No, when I know I'm talking about something that matters, I get goosebumps. Which is why you know how some people, you know, Bartlett talks about AI or pressing a button. I just look at my goosebumps like, Dustin, make sure we clip this. The merit of this fucking game right now. And it intoxicates me. And I fucking got the gray hairs and the fucking wrinkles. I put in the fucking work for the last 20 years and I'm pumped that I've been commoditized on the merit of the fucking. It's the lion eats lion, it's the sports. You can't cheat. What I love about social media right now is it's fucking merit based.
- [30:59]
B
They're only as good as your next post.
- [31:00]
A
I fucking when I tell you I want to eat this fucking, that excites the fuck out of me. And I love that. For everyone who is sitting right now, I mean, talk about something inspirational. You're listening right now. Cause you motivate them. And they see me on it and like, yeah, either I like that guy or fuck that guy. But they're listening, right? They're sitting right now and they're fucking not in a good place. They're like, fuck, man, I blew it or I missed it. Or it's the fact that if they believe me because it's 100% true. If they're sitting there and be like, wait a minute, my single post about what I know about Zelda. My individual post back to UK culture of like, wait, if I nerd out about darts in detail, is that what these two fuckers are?
- [31:41]
B
I fucking love that. I think, like, what do I think about British Culture, darts, like that's where you go. It's darts, fish and chips and tea.
- [31:50]
A
You know, if you really think about that, you know, going global, like, wait, my unbelievable knowledge of cricket. If I break that down in a green screen or do this, like knitting, right? Or like Nick Moredis, one of my top dogs at vaynermedia. Cause he finally heard me and he wanted to be a practitioner, not just an executive. He flips egg omelets. Flips them. You might have seen him. He's the guy who takes an egg, like just egg omelet, flips an ear and catches it. He has a fucking TikTok or Instagram, I think that has more views than I've ever had in my career. That's fucking amazing. Like, to me, I just love the opportunities. Back to finding what you're looking for. For everyone who's listening right now who still has either a lot or a glimpse of optimism left, please listen one more time because I'm gonna repeat it for the fuckers in the back. The fact that tomorrow you can start, you decide to go after something you either really know or you really love. Going back to what's changed. The day before I started Wine Library TV, I can't believe I'm saying this 18 years later, because I lived it. I sat there and said, I'm doing this YouTube thing and I debated two things. Will I do a wine show because I know more about that than anything, or will I do a show about the New York Jets? Because it's the thing I love the most. I almost did a Jet show and I ended up doing a wine show. And I want everyone listening right now about their content on social. Am I going to talk about something I know the most? I'm an accountant. I don't love it. I don't hate it. Because if you hate it, you'll be dead. I don't hate it, but I don't love it. But motherfucker, I know accounting and I also know I'm silly and I'm a bro or silly girl and I'm just gonna make it a little more entertaining or I'm fucking obsessed with Avatar and I'm just gonna make unlimited Avatar movie content. I don't think people realize that. Most people, if they go hard for a couple of years on what I'm saying that on a bad day, they're making 80 to 150,000 a year in merch in a couple brand deals in pre roll, right? And for a lot of fucking people on earth making 150 talking about proper football instead of making 230. Being an executive in the state organization, doing landscaping is a much better life or even better because I actually believe the even more extreme. I think over time everybody will make more than if they hate their job of making social media content around their passions or expertise. And I think that's a level of merit. Long tail entrepreneurship. Because we think about this shit from a Mr. Beast, from a Logan Paul standpoint, most people are not gonna make millions of dollars a year in social. But most people have the opportunity to make hundreds of thousands. And that long tail is misunderstood.
- [34:35]
B
Right now talk to me about when it comes to the specifics of content style, what do you think have got the greatest upside? At the moment everyone's talking about vertical video, about face to camera. Substack, I think has got tremendous. It's one of my favorite. I don't know whether you'd call it social media. I guess it's kind of what medium should have been.
- [34:56]
A
Yeah, that's exactly right. It's content subscription.
- [34:58]
B
I think Medium shit the bed there. And absolutely, I mean, they had it. They absolutely had it.
- [35:02]
A
I mean, Ed Williams is probably one of my three favorite.
- [35:05]
B
Is that the dude behind me?
- [35:07]
A
He's also the dude behind Twitter? I know Jack gets a lot of the credit now. In 2006, 7, 8, Jack invented the concept. Ev ran the company. Ev was the guy. At bare minimum, they were the CO guys. But the 2006, 7, 8, 9 era of Twitter was Ev Williams. He also was Bebo, which he's like, not Bebo, excuse me, Bloodspot. He sold something to Google. I apologize. It definitely wasn't Bebo. It was something else. I think Blogspot or something of that nature, if I recall. And he also then did a pod after he sold a big company to Google. He was about to build a podcast company and then Apple Podcast came out. He was smart. He was like, this is gonna lose. Shut it down. Very smart. And then Twitter, he did Medium. You're right, they were very close. I was so bullish on Medium and Substack, I think innovated that same site. Similar to Digg and Reddit, right? Digg was Reddit.
- [36:04]
B
Yeah.
- [36:05]
A
And then Reddit. Blogger. Thank you. Blogger is what Ed Williams did.
- [36:08]
B
From content strategy side, someone says, gary, I found my thing. Or I have an idea what my thing might be. It's going to be cricket or fucking tea or darts. What should somebody be thinking about? I think a lot of people get stuck in the what to make mechanisms.
- [36:23]
A
Yes, let's go into it. Let's go nerdy first. It's a self awareness game. There is multiple mediums that work in communicating. I'm glad you brought up substack because it allows me to go there. There is the written word. There are people listening right now who know more about video game 1980s culture than anybody in the world. However, they are very self aware and they're like, fuck this shit. I'm not going on camera. I don't have the gift of gab. I'm incredibly awkward with my words. I'm shy, I don't like it. Good news. Do you like to write? Huh? I'm a little bit more there. Or they have great gift of gab, but the camera makes them. It kills them. Great. You've got video, you've got audio and you've got the written word. If you want to go to the extremes, you could even animate and cartoon it. You could even go that far. But that's a little bit of a further putt. But what would I say? First you have to know your medium. The preference is video because video is a starting point to everything else. I do audio and written word without doing it because everything's extracted from my video. So video is the holy grail. No question. Video killed the radio star. That's right. However, it is not required. That's very important for people to hear. Number two, once you decide to do it, you have to decide your medium. So for example, if somebody who's listening is really into modern IP law, with AI coming with NFT culture, with Disney, with Pokemon, LinkedIn and YouTube are going to be much better mediums for them potentially than let's say Facebook. But if you're into parenting Dr. Becky, big shout out. She's getting a lot of momentum. Facebook's a fucking dream. So you have to know where your audiences are. You have to know what mediums and then per medium becomes the creative variable. Meaning LinkedIn is a fucking monster for the written word. You write a fucking epic 4 substack like New York Times, opt in blogging medium, you write fucking 12 a newsletter person. You write fucking 12 paragraphs of fucking fire about something B2B or business oriented and you post that on LinkedIn with a good picture. Their now for you page stuff will get you lots of fucking views, lots of reads. And LinkedIn is a very different audience. You get one proper fucker to read that you're getting a message on LinkedIn that's gonna make you money. B2B and grown up business. LinkedIn is one of the biggest opportunities that people miss because for example, this iconic CPG brand you're building, if you write four paragraphs on your strategy of something you see on LinkedIn that may lead to a business development deal that will never happen on Instagram where you're.
- [39:10]
B
Building consumers distributor from Walmart happens to come across it.
- [39:13]
A
You got it right. And LinkedIn is so global it could even be a small live shopping player in China. People don't understand what's going on there. So to answer the question is they'll all work. When you go into them, it starts getting into real culture. When you're writing something, something your headline matters. It's good old newspaper. If that LinkedIn post, the variable is gonna be your opening headline.
- [39:36]
B
What do you think about when it comes to copy for a headline?
- [39:38]
A
I think about like what is unique? Can you say it different? And I'll tell you the biggest thing actually. Thank you for being so good at interviewing. You're pushing me in a good place. When I think about social media creative, I think about it in consumer segmentation, something I call cohorts. So when I make content, I'll make content for. I'll think like, okay, I'm making this for 48 to 55 year old parents of a 21 year old and it's a wealthy family and the kid is lazy. But they were the parents that made all the money because they grew up poor and they have anxiety that their kid's lazy. But they're the ones that created the nepotism because they pay them money. That's the content being made for cohorts with teeth. That was a very narrow thing. I wasn't saying parents. So I think, when I think in headlines I'm like what narrow group am I writing this for? I'm going to write this article and this headline is going to be written for the buyers of the biggest retailers in America. Title what big box retailers don't know about beverages? You see what I just did? Improv that my brother. Uh oh that my brother. That's why I wrote this book. That's what I know is missing right now. People are trying to hack these the Algos, they're looking for best practice. That's wonderful. That's called P platform strategy. But then there's the C. I call it PAC platforms and culture. And then you have to have consumer cohorts. So you have to know the platforms absolutely. Vertical this, carousel that, livestream this. Like best practices as you know this TikTok and Instagram are now littered with characters that do the GaryVee thing and tell people what the best platform things are. But the platforms tell you. The fucking Instagram guys making content every day like, like, this is what Instagram cares about. You just follow every time TikTok puts out an announcement, that's what they're gonna do. It doesn't take a fucking superhero to understand. If Meta says we now care about carousels, go make fucking carousel. Like, Jesus. The culture, the strategy, the headline. Like, the way I'm thinking here, like, who are you making it for? Why are you bringing. Let's go back to something I said earlier. Okay, so now you're writing a LinkedIn post. What big box retailers don't know about the beverage market. If you write this as a fucking press release for you, you're being selfish with the hope that the Walmart buys. That article's not going to hit. If you really take a step back and spend 30 hours analyzing what's happening at big box retailer with drinks and understanding something that they're overestimating, you can now say you could start it with like one of the biggest mistakes about how big box retailers think about their relationships with Coca Cola and Dr. Pepper is they overvalue what Poppy was able to do, what prime was able to. Got it. Liquid Death. Got it. That shit. I fucking love that shit. That level of depth is missing in the game right now. And that goes for everything. You want to be a fashion brand, what's the micro influencer strategy? Do you go to Coachella? Not to be at Coachella, but to film everything for you, to post, produce it for you for your social content. Because no photo shoot in a studio like this could ever replicate the actual energy of a fucking festival where the cool fucking kids are cooling out.
- [42:41]
B
Things like that talk to me from a platform perspective. A lot of people are gonna be asking this question, okay, so I have a number that are in front of me. I can do written word on LinkedIn, I can do written word on substack, I can do vertical video, TikTok, Instagram, I can even do that on Facebook. I can just simulate post it from Instagram across onto Facebook. Can do YouTube shorts, etc. What are the platforms over the next three to five years that you're the most bullish and bearish on?
- [43:07]
A
I can't answer that question because it's not how my brain thinks. Let me explain what I mean. Day trading attention is don't romanticize about yesterday Instagram and don't try to get too excited about tomorrow. Elon post yesterday, vine question mark. Right. So Vines come. Don't overthink today. I don't know what's going to be there in three to five years. I definitely wouldn't like. The reason I'm good at my game is when it happens, I'm all in. So I can only speak about today and anybody worried about three to five. And people ask me all the time, what's next three to five years? I don't know. I know that Meta and Google are not going to disappear. So I continue to think they'll innovate or MA and be in the game as macro companies. But YouTube Shorts was not in the cards for me three years ago. Right. But then TikTok's pressure made them go there. I think vine is gonna be massively interesting to watch when they reboot. Coming back 100%. I'd be. It would make. It would be. Elon's too smart to not do it.
- [44:02]
B
Does Twitter own Vine?
- [44:03]
A
Yes.
- [44:03]
B
Right, okay. And that was part of the deal.
- [44:06]
A
Yes. Once, you know, but they shut it down. But it's still there. Right. And they own the IP and you know, I mean vine is the absolute seed of this generation. Short form video started online. It was a profound thing. When it hit, I remember looking at it day one, I was like, ooh, this is different, different. And it just completely captured youth culture at that time. And I was very serious about it. As a matter of fact, I launched. You can Google this right now. Everyone listening. I launched probably. I mean the article said it like the first influencer agency called Grape Story with Jerome Jar, one of the first celebrities on Vine. And we signed Logan, Paul, Richard, Ridy, Monkusa. Like all of these characters, Brittany Furlan, we were talking to all of them. So to answer your question directly and not get too scattered here, I don't know what three to five years is gonna bring. I know that for everyone who's listening, the answer is more and yes and. And meaning. My argument with everyone here today is every minute that you don't spend on gathering more attention is a minute that you're potentially declining on your long term opportunity. There's times to cash in on your attention, there's times to do other things. But I feel like a lot of people will go, you know, we talked earlier about regret. The only things I regret as a businessman is not going harder on my thumb on the scale. Every time where I knew the attention was, I should have made more TikTok videos six years ago. I should have done more Google Ads in 2001, I should have sent more email in 96. I should have done more tweets in 2007. And so whether it's, you know, we haven't talked about live streaming. I mean, there's so much going on with Twitch and all these live streaming platforms. TikTok Live is very important. Look, we don't. Three to five years. What if fucking TikTok gets banned by America in seven months? Where does all that attention go, right? I mean, to me, that's a huge opportunity for Vine. If I'm Elon, I'm sitting like, okay, if I time this perfectly and I'm fucking Elon, right? Like I'm that guy. If I fucking announce vine the day I could probably get every. Like, it could happen in. That would be insane. What a fucking strategy, you know? And so I don't know, I know that as I sit here today, right, this nanosecond, Instagram's harder than ever because the supply and demand curve on Instagram is hard. More content was made on Instagram yesterday than ever in the history of Instagram. But the attention is made been fragmented into YouTube shorts, into TikTok. So how can Instagram be as good as it was four years ago? It's not supply and demand, supply and demand. Supply and demand of attention. I know that YouTube Shorts has a longer tail on its views than anything else because YouTube's the second biggest search engine in the world. So I know when I make a short on YouTube, I title it in a way that more matches search than I would on TikTok because I want somebody in four months to search. How do I do? And I show up, right? These are the things I obsess over. This is why I went so nerdy in this book. I went so fucking detailed.
- [46:59]
B
That was only a recent update with regards to shorts that they were using keywords in title for search.
- [47:06]
A
It is only been a recent thing more people have talked about, but from the day it started, shorts were showing up in results.
- [47:13]
B
That was a big thing that we've. It's something that we've set in the uses on the channel that will put. If there's a short that comes up from this, it'll be whatever the title of it is line. Gary Vee. Gary Vaynerchuk.
- [47:23]
A
That's right.
- [47:24]
B
Whichever is based on search.
- [47:25]
A
Voltage, of course.
- [47:27]
B
Okay, so is there room in your opinion? Actually even a better question than that. Naval released air chat. Yes, this week. What's your thoughts?
- [47:39]
A
Yes, I love it. I'm really enjoying it. I went Ham this weekend, this has been a crazy week for me, so I've been a little bit sad that I haven't been able to jam with it as much. First of all, I love the beginning stages of seeing AI so integrated into native social, right? So for everybody who doesn't know Air Chat, you know, it's ironic, you may know this, it's been around for almost four years. They keep iterating it and the latest version of it has really caught fire Last week with, by the way, all Those nerds from 22006 7. The Josh Elmans, the Mazios, like all my favorite homies from back in the day, they're all there. It's the way that it always works. The nerds are always a few minutes before the cool kids, but now you see a blend back to cool kids being on there over the weekend in a way that we've never seen before. Not even clubhouse. It's usually the nerds now for air chat to not become clubhouse or other things, AKA a feature, because Twitter Spaces is clubhouse. It needs to keep innovating. But it's really cool, right? So for everybody who doesn't know, it's very much like Twitter. But the difference is it's all audio. So you record your tweet, but then it transcribes it into the written word. But when you consume it, you can read it or listen to it. And when there's a conversation or a thread of tweets, it will just play almost like a podcast. It's really neat. There's a lot of cool things in it. So the way I think about things are, are they features or are they.
- [49:01]
B
Permanent platforms is gonna get gobbled up by some existing larger platform and just get folded into their correct featureless.
- [49:09]
A
That's right. So obviously Twitter would be a natural, cause it looks most like Twitter. But this might have too much friction for that. The answer is the verdict's still out. But when I think about the things that people have asked me about in the last several years, Dustin is filming in the background right now. You remember I was really on it with Bereal. People are like, bereal's next. I'm like, mm, I think it's gonna be a feature, right? Like, I don't see, like, now Bereal could have built on top of it. Snap did snap early. Could have been a feature, and then they built more things into it. And then obviously their killer feature stories became foundational to every platform. So, you know, I'm always paying attention when new platforms pop, reclip I don't know if you've seen this. This one's on my mind a little bit again. I've been watching it for several months. It hasn't popped yet. It's on your phone. It's recording everything that you're talking about. It's a recorder of everything.
- [50:00]
B
Oh, it's Amazon.
- [50:02]
A
It's what people are scared of thinking what Alexa is. Talk about conspiracy theorists. But here's the interesting part. It's only recording the last two minutes. So it doesn't record everything. It's a rolling last two minutes. You know what that allows to happen when you're.
- [50:19]
B
Oh, we just said that thing. Oh, that's very smart.
- [50:23]
A
It's very. The reason I thought TikTok was gonna explode musically was I'm like, oh my God. This is social media with training wheels. They're giving people music, they're giving people all these edits. It's gonna help non creators be better creators. The reason I like Reclip, it allows everybody in the world to be an audio content creator or video. Cause then when you're done with the re clip you can like add features to it. It becomes like a TikTok. I think they're onto something again. These are. I'm always watching but I don't anoint. It's even rare for me to mention something like reclip in such a prominent platform like this podcast because I don't want, I don't on the record air track. Reclip, I don't know. But I'm always in the lab watching. I'm always refining my day to day social, back to day trading tension and I'm always watching for the next wave and sometimes something. I'll tell you this, what I learned on Socialcam. Socialcam was a social network I think in 2011 or 12 that was hot for I don't know, 48 seconds aka a summer. But I created on it that helped me understand what to do on Vine. It was even like vine actually hit socialcam didn't but it was short form video. And so when vine came I was like wait a minute. And then obviously when the whole next era came, I was ready for short form video.
- [51:42]
B
Talk to me about long form content versus short form and we can fold into that conversation volume versus quality depth of content as well.
- [51:53]
A
I think a lot to talk about there. Yes to your first question. They both work. People watch a three hour movie if they love it. Or a 45 minute vlog. I did very well with DailyVee. They were long and people will watch seven second videos that crush. And people will not watch seven second videos because they're garbage. And people will definitely not watch 25 minute videos if they're garbage. So that goes back to self awareness. Are you capable of doing a vlog or a great video series or are you not? Same with short form quantity. Quality. Quantity is not debatable. You either make 97 pieces of content in a month or you don't. Quality is completely subjective. Either this person's attractive, funny, insightful or not. I'm very high on that. However, I do think that people. I think I didn't do a good enough job contextualizing when I would. You know, I've been screaming on social for seven years. Volume, volume, volume, volume. The reality is it's a quality quantity ratio. Volume. If you're capable, if you have a lot to say, if you have a lot of jokes, if you have a lot of good looks, if you have a lot of techniques, if you have shit to say, go, go, go, go, go. Different ways, edits different, you know, if you don't. Of course not. This goes back to earlier, why I'm obsessed with passion or expertise. You're dead if you're not doing passion or expertise, you just won't have enough juice. There was not enough fucking fuel in it. Passion will take you forever. Which is why I like that actually more. But expertise, especially if you don't hate it. I always get worried about expertise because a lot of people's thing that they know because it's their profession they don't like. And I do think that fuel will run out as well. But to answer your question one more time to recap for everybody. Both long and short form work and don't work. It's based on how good you are. I think quantity matters. In the future AI world you're going to get drowned out by the quantity of content if you are not committed to quantity. But yes, of course it's predicated on the quality of that quantity. I just think you should have more at bats. Many of the posts I put out with all this 20 years of expertise and writing the fucking book and being that fucking guy I miss all the time. But I love that feeling like I'm trying to learn. I saw somebody the other day in a piece of content making fun of me and my team throwing doing all sorts of different shit and I was laughing because I'm like no, no, that's the game. The point I think he was trying to make is like he's lost his way. He doesn't know what he's doing. He's just throwing. We're not throwing against a wall to see what sticks. We're exploring different features and things to try to learn what's next. And I have the humility for it to not do well. Do you know that the reason most people suck at social media is they're scared to not get as many views as their little fragile ego needs to go through the day? I don't give a fuck. I'm streaming on Twitch on mute in my office. 83 people are watching. I don't give a fuck. That doesn't take away from everything I'm doing.
- [54:47]
B
Do you not think that there's a degree of optics, like, people naturally use popularity as a proxy for quality?
- [54:55]
A
Of course.
- [54:56]
B
So to a degree, if there is, if you're consistently posting in a way that isn't getting. Not saying that this is what you're doing. Yeah, but if you're consistently posting in a way and it's like 83 likes, nine likes, like, that says something to your audience about, you know, when you look at YouTube and you see thumbnail, you see title, you see the name of the creator, you see how long it is. Like, those are important metrics. But when you go on, you see how many people have viewed that video.
- [55:31]
A
It depends on what? If you're trading for popularity, sure. Or the perception of popularity. Sure. Depends on what you're trading on. For me, if 80 people are watching me on Twitch while I'm on mute all day, there's really no reason to watch it. But I'm just experimenting. If someone then decides, like, Gary Vee fell off or sucks, that person is incredibly not smart. I'm not super worried about losing with losing players.
- [55:57]
B
Yeah, that's an interesting way. I think a lot about the time of cultivating the audience that you want and being very careful about the sort of people that you attract. Of course, you can throw red meat and you can do the audience capture thing and you can be predictable.
- [56:14]
A
I could get 100 million views tomorrow if I decide to go fucking crazy on something I don't believe on that will goad the entire audience into watching. Who the fuck wants that? It depends on what you're playing for. Too many people are trying to win with losing players, and too many people are not trying to win with winning players. One of the things I tell a lot of kids that fake the funk when they pitch me businesses. I see you're gathering your thoughts because I want you to hear this. I think you're really like this? No, no, I totally get it. One of my favorite meetings to have is a kid that comes in that's got it, you know, the fucking juice. But I'm, like, listening. I love listening to a pitch, and I realized that she or he just pitched me, and it would work on 99%, but not the 1%. And what I mean by that is I'll go into something specific. They go where I know they're embellishing, and I'll go very narrow. If it's a place I'm comfortable, I know what I'm talking about, and I know a lot about a lot of stuff. This is why I started VaynerMedia. The main reason I started VaynerMedia was to know as many different things about as many different businesses as possible and build the biggest marketing communications company in the world that I could deploy against my other behaviors when I got older. For me, it's always been about 60 to 70. Like, that's when I'm gonna strike like a cobra. This right now is just fucking foreplay. This is just a setup. This is the fucking jab anyway, when I'm in a meeting like that. I had this happen the other day with a kid, and I went deep, and I was like, da, da, da, da. And I could see the kid was a little bit like. Because I was, like, calling him out, by the way. He crushed it. I'm like, this kid's gonna fucking win. You know, that charisma, that salesmanship. And there was a lot of good stuff, but he was full of shit on, like, three or four things. But it was complicated to know it, but it just happened to be in a space that I knew enough to be able to go there. He really took it well, which was what I wanted to see, which gave me even more confidence that he's just 24 and he's gonna get there. And then I said something to him that I really. I say a lot of shit, and I'm into this shit, but I like those moments where I'm like, fuck. I think this person just internalized this, and it's gonna be, like, a thing. And I can't wait for them to dominate, and I'm gonna be old, and they're gonna be like. Gary Mee once said to me, 30. I like that stuff, and I like it for him. I said, brother, you're gonna win with 99% of losing players. The problem is, you do that pitch again to the 1% winners, you're gonna lose with all of them, and they're the only people that matter that recaps what we just talked about. So, yes. Do I think perception is reality? Yes, I do. Do I think brand matters over anything? I sure do. But I think that if people. The biggest issue with the world right now is people wanna take everything out of context. Have no concept of. We've eliminated intent. People are trying to cancel everybody. Cancel Culture was a disaster. Cause it tried to cancel people without understanding their intent. If somebody is a beautiful person, they just didn't know the proper slang or didn't know and they just had no ill will. The fuck are you trying to get them fired for? Similar to somebody seeing a video of like Mr. Beast on a post on snap. Only have 80,000 views and be like, oh, he fell. That's not smart. That's not understanding what people. And by the way, back to your journey and his journey and the journey that I had with Empathy Wines and kind of knew CPG was next and why I talked about it forever and why I built VaynerMedia to be in CPG. A lot of creators are gonna care less about how many maximizing views they're gonna care about. Views that translate into CPG sales or hours allocated to meetings in Bentonville or hours allocated to being on TikTok live. Like, shit's gonna change. Shit changes. But the lack of courage and curiosity of the A list to try new shit because they're worried about what we just talked about is why a lot of those people are gonna end up in the B list.
- [59:50]
B
Give me a handful of creators that if you could bet on them somehow over the next couple of years, you would think about. Or it could just be the ones that you find yourself coming back to. Like, you can't wait. When you see their videos, I'll tell.
- [60:04]
A
You I love you for adjusting based on my facial reaction. That's not why I made that face. I'm very weird when it comes. Let me explain what I mean by this. I don't consume. Like, let me give you an example. I don't know if I'm betting on her. Nick Dio hit me up with someone yesterday and I spent like, I loved it. It's not that I'm betting on her. Let me see if I can fucking find this. She's like an intern. She's got 37 followers on Instagram or 137 and Dio said, I bet she has 50,000 in a month. And I'm like, you're right. And let me tell you where I'm going with this. I don't go deep on people or influencers or content creators. I go very wide. I'm looking for macro trends and things that I think I can contribute to the conversation in podcasts like this. So for me, I don't actually consume anything and I consume everything. I'm trying to like, really the reason I said I'm weird and like I'm trying to figure out how I can break this down. I am. Seven years ago I would answer Mr. Beast. Yet I've never watched a MrBeast video in my life. Like Charli D'Amelio was in my office for her first business meeting. I might have watched one full eight second dance video of hers to know like, I'm going so broad, right? 3, 1, 0, baby. As a rapper of like, do I think, like I'll listen to a song first minute. There's something in the way that I. Because I'm trying to consume everything, everything. It's almost like I don't have the time to go deep enough. And so I'm not great. I'm disappointed. In a weird way, I'm disappointed in myself to not be able to answer your question because I've seen 50 of them in the last 50 weeks. But a. I have some form of reading comprehension issues and dyslexia where like words are hard for me. So like I could tell someone that I saw them in an airport in Dubai and I could tell them we Talked about peanuts 13 years ago and I could have seen their social media 90 times and they could say, what's my name? And I'm like, I don't know.
- [62:28]
B
Yeah, it's kind of. I guess so. I guess I've got it in my head that you're like a meteorologist, but for social media you're trying to be the weather report. You're trying to take the.
- [62:37]
A
Yeah, I'm just. And I'll see things and I like, like. But it's very, very hard for me to say like, especially because I like being historically correct. So I'm not gonna sit here and say like, you know, I think I can tell you the profile. Cause this might help a lot of people.
- [62:55]
B
What's the kind of person that will succeed over the next few years on social media?
- [62:58]
A
The ones that can get the noise out? The biggest reason people won't win in social media is people don't have the stomach to handle the feedback. People won't have the stomach for the changing winds of day trading. They'll be on a pedestal on TikTok all these TikTok fuckers. And I say fuckers like I'm one of them. Like the people that are winning on TikTok right now, their day will come. Their day will come where the attention shifts and they won't be ready. And will they be ready after having four years of being on to do it again? Do you have the intestinal fortitude to be in perfect you, you're in such great shape. If you go through a period of your life for three years where you do all the wrong things and you wake up three years later and say, fuck, I'm getting back to this dude. Do you have the fucking strength? Because once, you know, the hardest thing is once you were there, when you lose it, to get back, right? If you were making 5 million a year, let's say you were making 40,000 and then you blew up on social and you had two years where you made 3 million a year, but then you're not popping on social anymore. Do you have the strength to go back and put the work in to get back to that place? Do you have the emotional capability to take one step backwards, to then take two steps forward? Do you have the grit? Do you have the self esteem? Do you have the ability to deal with the ebb? And do you have think about the people that get trolled? Are you gonna cry and disappear or are you gonna be Logan Paul and become a WWE Superstar? Do you have the strength to deal with criticism at scale? Do you have the strength to deal with the toe bumps? The biggest reason people aren't entrepreneurs is entrepreneurship is losing constantly. With the occasional win, it looks cool, but people don't love eating shit.
- [64:54]
B
Talk to me about how you deal with criticism and the inevitable ups and downs of success. You're someone that has got both by.
- [65:04]
A
Being empathetic to it being a reality of life. It's inconceivable that you want attention and you're not going to have judgment. In a world that is obsessed with taking things out of context and only headline reading, there's no common sense to that. I don't take it personal. I care about the judgment of the most. Inner circles that I have. Family and friends, employees, inner circles, acquaintances that became friends. Like, I can't be upset if Johnny97 thinks I'm a dick face because my energy is too much. I'm also empathetic. I know that my alpha, competitive, high energy jersey, like, I know what this is. That's not for everybody. Some people want to zen out. If you want to zen the fuck out, I'M not your guy. And so I'm just too empathetic. I also think it's humility. At the end of the day, I'm like, who the fuck am I gives a fuck? If I die tomorrow, what's gonna happen? I'll get 24 hours of love on social right. People be like, oh, man, this. What the fuck? Like, you know, like later.
- [66:09]
B
Do you remember Gary Vee?
- [66:10]
A
100%. And luckily, we live in an era where we're more like. All of us are more like the most famous people in the world. Like, we'll live forever. Like a clip from this, you know, cool. It is that our great, you know, fun. It will be. This is insane. Your and my great, great, great grandchildren will somehow realize because last names, things will change. But somehow, if they became great friends would somehow family tree it and be like, holy fuck. And they're gonna, hey, hey, Jeremiah 794. Like, they will literally watch this. Do you know cool that is. But at the end of the day, how do I handle it? Humility and empathy talk to me about.
- [66:49]
B
Just that immediate emotional reaction. I think that overcoming that is something that a lot of people struggle with.
- [66:54]
A
Well, I think that's right. You know, look, I think it's nice.
- [66:57]
B
In the stark contrast between. With the nice perspective and I don't disagree. Price it in is the cost of doing business. Cost of doing business. You put things on the Internet, people are gonna say mean stuff to you.
- [67:08]
A
Yeah.
- [67:09]
B
And fighting against that is like King K Nut trying to stop the tide.
- [67:12]
A
But that do you know, fighting.
- [67:14]
B
Yes.
- [67:15]
A
Okay. You know, some people like. Like getting punched in the face.
- [67:18]
B
Yes, I'm friends with Tim Kennedy.
- [67:20]
A
Yes, I like getting punched in the face. That's my answer. I don't know what to tell you. It's my nature. I was shit on my whole life. I was a Russian immigrant. I came over here. Russia was the bad guys when I came here. So I got shit on in grade school. I didn't speak English. This is a story I tell very rarely. Very rarely. I think I've done it once or twice. I'm going there. I often talk about. I lived in people that really know me. My story is I went from Queens to Edison, New Jersey. Edison, New Jersey. Where I became a Jets fan and entrepreneur. But it's not fully true. Queens to Dover for a year, then Edison. Dover doesn't make my story. I never understood why, but I'm starting to tap into it. It was fucking bad because I didn't speak English and because I Went outside a lot. I got picked on a lot. And it was a rough neighborhood. I remember one story, that's the main story I remember of that era where I saw the kid pee in the Pepsi cup, like by the tree. And they came over and the seven of them bullied me to drink it. I was five. I was fucking five. And I kind of like tried. Like if I remember, it's very blurry. I mean it's 43 years ago, but like I didn't speak English. Obviously when you're an animal, like a human at five, you know what's happening. But like then I was a terrible student. I was D's and F's and this was the 80s. There was no political correctness. My teachers literally would look me in the face. These are grown ups. They're your teachers. You look up to them, they're like, you are a loser. You're dumb. You're gonna fail. You're gonna be a garbage man. Then I also love sports. I played sports all the time. Do you know what happens when you play sports? You lose a lot. You win sometimes, but you lose a lot. Video games, this. And then I sold stuff. I did lemonade stands. I would sit on Tingley Lane in Edison, New Jersey as a nine year old and I would watch millions. Let me take a step back. I would see hundreds of cars drop by and not stop for my sign. And occasionally get one. I live life under the mindset of it's all shit, but it doesn't matter. The shit doesn't matter. It's the fucking sunshine, the occasional sunshines, that is everything. And I think people live the reverse. A little ounce of poopy makes them cry. Cause they're fucking soft. Cause they're not fucking hard enough. Because they're not loving themselves. I love myself too much to give a fuck about you. I don't know what else to tell you. I don't want to be delusional. I don't want to be fucking living in my own ecosystem. I respect other opinions. I internalize for processing other opinions. But I have no interest in putting your fucking subjective opinion about me above my opinion. Above me. That's how I deal with it.
- [70:15]
B
Neediness occurs when you place someone else's opinion of you above your opinion.
- [70:19]
A
Period. I don't put my parents opinion above me. I don't even if I'm not gonna do that with my parents, who I love the most, who built me, if I'm not putting my mom's opinion about me above me, on me, how the fuck am I gonna do that about Charlie or Rick or Susan or Haseem? Fuck you.
- [70:35]
B
I'm interested in what drives you. Now, I get when there's a point to prove when you're an immigrant that when you've been picked on. That when you've been picked on.
- [70:43]
A
But you know what's funny? You know what's funny? My. My. My spirit doesn't come from that chip on the shoulder, even though I just spoke with passion about it. Mine's about curiosity of. I like the game. I'm curious. In a wild. I would have loved to have been a professional athlete. I'm so sad I wasn't. That would have really, really satisfied me, because the data was there. If I was a running back in the NFL, I would have been. It would have been over, and I would have ranked 97th in career rushing yards, 400th in career touchdowns. Right. 18th in receptions by a running back. And I could have, like, I would have enjoyed that. I would have been like, ah, good for Barry Sanders. He was better than me. And like, fuck you, fucking Ricky Williams. I was better than you. That's what drives the shit out of me in entrepreneurship. I love this game of brand building and business building. You know, as a. I'm talking. What drives me as a professional, as a. As a human. What drives me is to be happy as often as possible and interact with the people I like the most as often as possible. But so much of what I love and what makes me smile is the friendships I make through the process of business, the family I make through business. It's so fun for me. And I'm curious. I love where I'm at right now. I've done well, but there are unlimited people on stats that have done better than me. But I have a sneaky feeling that I'm gonna catch up. And so what drives me is I think I've been built for the fourth quarter my whole life. I alluded to it earlier. Everything I've been building is for 60 to 70.
- [72:24]
B
So do you still want to be working and grinding when you're 16? 17?
- [72:27]
A
Of course, because it's my hobby. I don't want to do anything that I don't like. I was a DNF student because I didn't. Like, I was smart enough to get B's and C's, but I didn't even have that gear in me. If you said to me, hey, great interview. Do me a favor. Can you help me hang this picture real quick? I'd be dead. I'd Literally rather give you like lots of money or like do anything. Like I would go on a conference call to all of your employees for 14 hours that I don't have sooner than help you hang that picture. So of course I want to do that because I don't think of it as grinding. I don't think of it as hustle porn. I think of it as doing the thing that brings me the most joy. I would rather be in a business meeting than on a golf course. I would rather be in a business meeting than sailing. I would rather be in a business meeting than cooking. I'd rather be in a business meeting than watching a movie. I'd rather be really watching the jets, having dinner with my family. Love dinners with people. Love jam sessions. It's so fun to be in Austin. This is where I learned to love it. South by Southwest on the ground, in hotel rooms. Give me 25, 7, 19, 8, 13. Smart people, clever people, thinking people, thoughtful people and just jam about it. I'll take that over working every day of the week. But there's just not a lot of garage saleing. I know that's like a funny like people like a lot of the kids because my TikTok videos go. A lot of the kids think of me as the garage sale guy because my TikTok videos do. Like I just. But even. And that's business marketing. Buy, sell, trade, you know, I really love it. And so of course I want to be doing like, I mean I, you know, you hear these stories. I'm sure this is cross your paths of the people who retire at 81 and then die at 82. I know why they thought it was what they were supposed to do and it took the life out of them. I have two important things to say about this. One, I will do this forever. And I really hope to live to at least 100 doing it. Two, I'm incredibly excited of making my last social media post. A split screen of this where I just ranted here. And now 71 year old me is making a video and saying, today's the day I'm retiring both from running businesses and making content. This has been the great joy of my life. I love all of you. I hope that all the archives of everything I've put out can bring value to all of you. But today was the day I woke up and I said, I don't like this anymore.
- [74:43]
B
So you're open to this trajectory not continuing in the way that you see.
- [74:48]
A
It right now, in a way that would make your fucking head spin. In equal visceral high energy of like the day I wake up and I'm like, fuck this shit, I'm out. In the same way that I have full conviction as I sit here right now that that day will never come.
- [75:00]
B
How will you. What do you think about the myth of identity at all? The fact that you can. So much of you and who you are is wrapped up in being that guy.
- [75:15]
A
Not for me, I'm aware. Not for me. One of the reasons humility is my partner is I don't give a fuck about Gary Vee. I'm proud of it. But it is not who I think I am. It is not my identity.
- [75:30]
B
What do you make that from?
- [75:33]
A
That detachment of it?
- [75:34]
B
No. Where do you take who you are from if it's not the things that you spend, you know. Understood.
- [75:41]
A
In order, starting with my mom and dad, then my sister, then my brother. In order, probably the top 100 people that have spent the most minutes with me in my life and what they think about me.
- [75:55]
B
So for people who are wanting to go on a path of success and exposure to the real world, is that a prophylactic? Having a circle of people that you trust, that you have faith, have their best faith in you, and care about you beyond not just what you do, but who you are?
- [76:16]
A
The reverse the having those hundred people be someone that you want to do the best for.
- [76:22]
B
Mm.
- [76:24]
A
Right. Like to me, you become sustainable and unbeatable if your framework is giving, not taking. And if you do that with those hundred people, of course the outcome of them caring about you will happen. You've been giving them deposits of love and emotional strength, financial strength, whatever, you're providing for them. And so yeah, I think simplicity is a big game. It's really cool how this all worked out for me. I could have been born in any era. The fact that I'm born in the era where the merit of attention and business is all based on the Internet now, no gatekeepers. Good for me. I'm good with that. To the era of judgment at scale that will disintegrate the most insecure and allow the most confident to shine, leave, impact, inspire the next generation to get to true self esteem, not fake self esteem and be able to navigate these choppy waters. Good for me.
- [77:19]
B
I read a really interesting Twitter thread last week about. I've thought about this for ages. I called it the elderly clout paradox, which is we're often told about the perils of fame too young, the Britney Spears and that if you have never known life as anything other than private jets and screaming fans and paparazzi. It can be disquieting because you don't actually know what life is for most people. And if that ever gets taken away from you, who are you? What's your identity? But no one ever talks about the perils of fame. Too old. And what does it mean if you're some, let's say, dusty Canadian psychologist working in the annals of Toronto University and then a bald MMA commentator plucks you out of obscurity and puts you on one of the biggest world tours that any speaking tour has ever been. Maybe one of the biggest speaking tours in history and sell 20 million, 30 million, 40 million books. And now so many people criticizing you and all the rest of this stuff. No one talks about that. Because I feel.
- [78:20]
A
I feel way better for Jordan than I feel for Charlie. Jordan Peterson was a grown man and has built foundational abilities to have a relationship. Right.
- [78:30]
B
This is why the only thing that I don't quite know about that it's difficult to be thrust into the world and never know what it's like to be normal before you've got a sense of who you are as a person. Charli D'Amelio, I don't disagree with something that's tough. But what about when you're ripped from your moorings and you thought you knew who you were? You thought you were.
- [78:50]
A
Well, the good news is for both those people, you're fundamentally in control. Both Charli D'Amelio and Jordan Peterson are fully allowed to disappear.
- [78:59]
B
Would they be. How would they be able to hide? They're gonna be noticed every single place that they go.
- [79:03]
A
The most famous people in the world over time once they stop feeding them system can disappear into obscurity. Do you know how? Not relevant. Jordan Peterson and Charli D'Amelio are in 10 years. If they never show up again. Day trading attention.
- [79:18]
B
Yeah. The pace of the news cycle means that if you. You're only as good as your next video and if you stop producing, you'll become obsolete very quickly.
- [79:26]
A
100. It happens all the time. Do you know how fucking famous TV stars were 15 years ago? Like Tom Selleck was the Most famous fucking 1980s. Like, you know what I mean?
- [79:40]
B
She was like his crush.
- [79:41]
A
I mean. Yeah, like my crushes every. Literally half the dudes in the world. And every girl did in 1983. But not now. Like, you know. No, I tom silent, you know, and listen. That's a legend. It's different. And it's like play but like I Mean, it happens all the time. Like, lonelygirl15 was the most famous person on YouTube in 2006. Right? Like, it happens all the time. Jerome Jar, I mentioned him earlier. Jerome Jar was the most famous person on Vine. He represented what take whoever you think is the single hottest young person right now on TikTok is. He represented that. And then he went to Africa and disappeared off the face of the earth. This is the best part of life. You are in control. You want to shit about the president, either side, leave America. You want to say that your mom is toxic, stop talking to her. You want to, like, your buddies are dragging you down, Leave your friends. You don't. You know, Europe is not entrepreneurial enough. Come here. Like, stop fucking crying. Like, I'm not gonna cry for Charlie or Jordan or me or you. Because I genuinely believe we have the capacity to make change.
- [80:58]
B
You mentioned earlier on about how.
- [81:03]
A
There.
- [81:03]
B
Is a temptation for creators to try and cash in too quickly. They can continue to put their thumb on the scale.
- [81:09]
A
Yes. I was saying, like extracting attention. You know, when you have this competitive advantage, like, you know that this music video style works and like, you only made 13 of them, not 700.
- [81:20]
B
Correct.
- [81:20]
A
Go ahead.
- [81:20]
B
I understand.
- [81:21]
A
That's less cashing in. That's more like extracting the most value out of the moment.
- [81:25]
B
So it's the inverse that I'm talking about. So someone has a competitive advantage at the moment. They continue to place their thumb on the scale. They continue, continue to rinse and repeat with authenticity and originality and quality and quantity. This thing that is going to continue to spin the wheels and get the engine moving. How do you know when it is time to cash in? Because if, as you say, I am worried for these tensions.
- [81:49]
A
How do you know when to get married? You make an emotional in your body, things start to happen. You can feel subjectively. You feel like you're making a subjective decision.
- [82:02]
B
I don't know whether people should be making business decisions with as much emotion as they do for getting married. Well, but I think I'll be more strategic than that.
- [82:10]
A
Well, a couple things. I think there's a lot of validity in that sentence. I think I'm making a slightly different parallel, which is nobody will know. You never actually really know if you made the right decision until the post game. So when should someone cash in? Where I was trying to go with that and maybe I was going down a bad path or maybe I'm still there. I'm gonna hold onto it for a second, is you need to just kind of make A call like, you know, there's been many people that sold too soon, and there's many people that sold too late, right? So that happens all the time. Instagram, universally, people thought Facebook was stupid and they thought Instagram pulled one off. They were wrong. One billion was one of the great MA steals of all time, right? On the flip side, there's been many companies, I mean, the amount of entrepreneurs that are listening right now that had a $30 million offer on their business, they're like, fuck you, I'm fucking Bezos, motherfucker. And then a year later have zero. You know that, right? You've been around enough already to know unlimited. Especially that. Notice what number I used that nice little 1530 for the. And they're just. And they. And they're dead inside. They're dead inside. This goes back to who's going to win. The one that could say. I sit here when I tell you it is insane that I did not invest in Uber's angel round. There's no logic behind it. He was my best bud. I was investing constantly in that era. And the serendipity of me playing just enough defense because I just bought my first real apartment in New York, it was just a little less liquid than the ideology. I had fucked me on an investment that I could have made $500 million on. And I love it. I love it. But for a lot of people, that's the death blow. That's why most people get the fuck out of this game. They can't deal with, like, the what if. Fuck a what if. There only is. So when should people cash in? I don't know. I think they need to make a decision on what feels right and when they go to something or when they go to sell it or when. They never monetized our audience, but now they want to sell their first sneaker or wine or book or collectible digital aspect. Like, you just gotta go with it. When you gotta go with it. You can feel crescendo, by the way, you might. Here's a. Let me give you. Let me go. Actually detailed instead of macro. Let me go micro. Here's a good reason to sell something or cash in. You're tired. You've been going really hard for six years. You didn't come for much. You're watching your single. Your father passed away when you were nine. You're watching your mom grind. She's 61. You just went over for dinner and she looks tired as fuck. And you're like, you know what? Even though I want to Keep building more equity with my audience before I cash in. I'm gonna go in for a cash in right now because you know what? A couple million bucks right now, I can get my mom to retire. I'm gonna buy her a little house. Her sisters live down in the middle of fucking nowhere in North Carolina. I could buy a fucking house for 200,000, 180,000. She'll be happy. I could use a fucking vacation, actually. I'm doing too many things. I could use a couple of those bucks to add two teammates to. I don't need to edit anymore. Right. There's. There's lot. There's. That's a for instance.
- [85:18]
B
What's your perspective on continuing to ladder up as your growing. Continuing to just do little bits. Little bits, little bits. As opposed to waiting until you have a huge amount of latent.
- [85:31]
A
Both work, right? Both can work. Look, I view this as a value exchange framework. If you're bringing value. One of the reasons I like selling stuff is I believe in what I sell. I have a funny feeling you believe in that drink. I don't think you mailed that in.
- [85:47]
B
No. We were involved every single step of the way. 12 months. 6 months of taste, brother.
- [85:53]
A
When I tell you, you know, I don't. You know how Amazon works until it comes out. You don't actually know the price because they keep lowering it based on what? This.
- [86:02]
B
Whatever the price is.
- [86:03]
A
This $27 worth of fucking thinking like, I believe in this more than my life. I know that I'm one of the few people that does hundreds, but that's not a lot of 8 billion. I'm one of the hundreds of people that could have wrote this book because I'm that much of a practitioner on every platform. There are very few people on earth that give as much fucks about LinkedIn as they do about TikTok and everything in between as I do. Who also have a 2000 person, 350 million dollar agency that works with all. Spends billions of dollars in media on social. Like, I got it. You know how good I feel. You know how nice it is to sell this? If you believe in. In what you're selling, there is no better thing. If you don't believe in what you're selling, there is no worse thing.
- [86:46]
B
Nothing worse. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, that naval quote. You're doing sales because you sucked at marketing. You're doing marketing because you sucked a product.
- [86:53]
A
Yeah.
- [86:54]
B
And I think authenticity is a word that comes up a lot in the book, and I think rightly so. People are so Concerned. In an age of high mistrust, of mess messaging from mainstream media, from independent media. All of the guardrails are off so the independent media can talk about whatever they want. Apparently the guardrails don't even exist for fucking mainstream media anymore.
- [87:14]
A
That's right.
- [87:15]
B
AI, DeepFace, automation, all of this stuff. I think the more that you can signal I am a person of trustworthy, verifiable, authentic, real, relatable, and then back up the signal. Yes, yes. And here is some proof. Here is some proof.
- [87:33]
A
And you know how proof happens. Time correct. These fucking kids hate me for pushing patients like it's the fucking cure. But motherfucker, I know all these alpha A and B fucking winners that I see. I see them every day. I read all their DMs, I watch them. I may not remember their name, but I can tell you the joke they made. Nikki Cass, right? I know that fucking kid is funny as fuck and he's got fire in his belly. And I can do like that. And I'm telling you right now, the number one kryptonite for all these fucking supermen and women is fucking patience. They want this shit so fast because they're insecure. They want to show everybody they already won because they play for them, not themselves. Could you imagine if athletes played for the audience? Can you imagine if athletes cried when they. When the home. The Knicks get boot. I'm so pumped about the Knicks right now. Finally the Knicks get booed every, every single game. Every single basketball team that plays in a major city, if they're down 11 nothing and have to call a timeout because they came out shitty, Philly, New York, Louisiana. They get booed. Could you imagine if you're like, I'm not going back out there, I just got booed. That's literally like being a content creator. When somebody shits on you or you have a bad day and you don't want to post again. People don't have inner strength because they're insecure. That is what I'm obsessed about. 80% of my content to find different ways to get people into self love. Cause it unlocks fucking everything. You can't play if you're not strong.
- [88:57]
B
What do you make of the culture of cynicism on the Internet? That to me seems to be kind of the set point, ground zero for the way that people behave online. Is this cutting, very cynical, zero sum mentality?
- [89:08]
A
I think the Internet and social media doesn't exist. I think they're a mirror of human truth. So when I hear you Say, what do I think about the cynicism of the Internet? I take out the word Internet and put it in society.
- [89:21]
B
Aren't people that cynical because they don't seem to behave that same way in the real world?
- [89:25]
A
That's because it's scarier to do it. You might get punched in the face. Keyboard warriorship is real fun. People do it in their own minds. They don't say it to your face because they're weak. The cynicism is happening in the airport right now. They're like, look at her. Who does the fuck she thinks she is, is dressing that way. They just say it in their head. The greatest thing that ever happened to the human being is social media. It exposed the living fuck out of us and it will allow us over this next decade or two to take one step backwards, to reassess, to take two steps forward. I believe this era of social media will create the great renaissance era of having real conversations around insecurity and self esteem.
- [90:06]
B
Why?
- [90:07]
A
Because I think there's a lot of pressure. Because I think the conversation you and I are having right now, because I think it's in everyone's face, because I think people are scared, because I think suicide and insecurity and unhappiness is fucking really feeling it. But the silly thing is, is there's much more negativity in mainstream media than there is in social media. You can't find positivity on mainstream media. You can find unlimited. Come hang with me. You can find unlimited positivity and answers and things that have merit and trying to figure it out with optimism. That is practical. So I laugh about where we're at right now on the shitting on social. I laugh because this is another cliche example of the world not understanding we did this with alcohol. The 1930s in this country of America, we banned alcohol. I love when people are like, we need to ban social media. I'm like, knock yourself out. Can't wait to see how that works out. Like, people are so naive. As if you need to ban the whole fucking Internet if you don't want to deal with what we're dealing with. What do you think happens if we banned all social media? Reddit would be a cesspool even more than it is now. Forums, comments on blog. Like humans are going to talk now on the Internet because you can hide the shit we used to think in our own heads or only talk to our one friend about, or sit in our dinner table and talk about we now talk about out loud.
- [91:32]
B
I've never even Thought about that before. That's a very interesting insight. That there was no outlet previously that permitted humans to say the fleeting, negative things that came to their mind because the repercussions were too great and the effort of saying them was too high.
- [91:50]
A
And the platform did not exist.
- [91:52]
B
Mm. So we're gonna chisel it into a wall in ancient Rome or something.
- [91:57]
A
There you go. Yes. And so there you have it. So, friends, nothing's changed. As a matter of fact, I would argue the world is happier than it's been historically. Overall, the Dark Ages were as bad. World wars. What do you think would be happening on social media if we were in World War II right now? Like, I don't understand how people don't understand this. They're like, it's never been worse. I'm like, you know nothing about history. If it was World War II right now, what the fuck do you think would be going on on social media? You think Americans would be, like, not saying bad things about Japanese people? Like, we put Japanese people in camps in America. Do you know your history? The fuck do you think these. The only difference is it exists. And by the way, it's going to be way crazier in VR and other, like, people don't get. What country lines matter if we spend 24 hours a day in VR.
- [92:53]
B
How should people protect themselves if so much of our time is spent online and so much of our interactions with other people is mediated through the Internet and social media. And social media enable people to be the worst versions of themselves or best and best versions of themselves, too.
- [93:09]
A
This is like. They mediate through thoughtfulness. We have to get smarter. Discipline.
- [93:16]
B
That's a.
- [93:17]
A
Do you know how much of a drug sugar is? Do you know that my body, every time I see a piece of candy, loses its fucking mind? Do you know how fucking hard it is to meet for fight? I was at Gap, Inc. Co. The other day. I'm having a pretty good week with nutrition. I'm pretty happy with myself. These little feelings. No, you know, those fucking peach gummies, the rings, those fuckers. I had to grab one, and I was like, fuck you, Gary. But I've been able to win most of this week, and most of them.
- [93:47]
B
Peach ring, of course.
- [93:49]
A
And that's what I. And I'm glad you said that. That's where I was going. And you're allowed to go on social media, do frivolous shit and look at bikinis or look at sports or. Or even leave a negative comment. It's okay. But not in sustained format. It's not okay to live your life going around the Internet saying negative things because all it's doing is exposing that you're a piece of shit to yourself. You're not happy. Misery loves company. You need to get it out. Do you know how? Honestly, the way I deal with negative comments is empathy and compassion and sympathy. They're not in a good place. I feel bad. I don't feel bad. For me, I take it in to make sure. Again, I'll say it again. I never want to be delusional. I never want to get high on my own supply. I never want to buy into me. That's why I stay away from me. I'm Gary Vaynerchuk. I know what Gary Vee is. It's me doing content publicly. It's like me being a comedian on stage or me being like, I love it. Like, I love it. I'm not playing a character. It's still me, but. But it's not my identity. And I could stay away from it because I also don't want to buy into it. It's also going well. I don't want to think that I'm better than. My favorite feeling is to not think that I'm better than, but want to be better than. I don't think I'm better than, but I strive to be better than. You know, it's a really cool relationship graph, but anyway, nonetheless, I'm so pumped about these last three, four, five minutes. I hope people rewind to the beginning of the this again. This. This is gonna be a great era. Everyone has decided this is the worst. I just decided that this is the era where this had to be part of the equation. There used to be a world without guns, without atomic bombs, without written word, without, like, without. You know how demonized electricity was when it first was invented? It had demons in it. Literally demonized. Shit happens. Everyone's like, oh, we used to be awesome. I'm like, no, we weren't. The Holocaust wasn't awesome. Slavery wasn't awesome. Like, the Black Plague wasn't awesome. World War I and 2 weren't awesome. Like, Vietnam sucked. Like, the Civil War was bad. You think social media is bad. You think the Democrat Republican thing is bad? Now, could you imagine if Twitter was popping during the Civil War? I mean, what the fuck's the matter with everybody? It's so funny. It's like everybody got an F in his. That's how everyone's talking right now. Like, as if everyone got an effin history. Or people aren't good at Critically thinking people are not willing to be thoughtful.
- [96:13]
B
I think a combination of the two. One of my smartest friends has a question which is what is currently ignored by the media but will be studied by historians?
- [96:24]
A
God, that's such a great thing. There's so much, you know, I'm trying to think about my knowledge of what the media, media is paying attention to right now. You know, one thing I'm very fascinated by is how much of Africa China owns. Yes, yes, I'm obsessed with Africa.
- [96:43]
B
They've basically made liquid, they've capitalized so.
- [96:47]
A
Much and I'm obsessed with Africa. I think Africa's the next great continent of talent, of ideas, of impact, of culture, culture, of pop culture. Like I know pretty much as I sit here Today as a 48 year old man that every day between now and my next 52 years, I really like to get to 100. I'll take anything after that. I'd be pissed in heaven for anything less that Africa will. Every day that goes by the continent of Africa will be more and more important. And so I don't feel like the mainstream media covers enough of like how great of a job China has done in very similar to what America did around the whole world. This is what America did from, you know, 1920 to 2000, really was able to influence and infrastructure so many parts of the world, the English language, like why do we all talk English, you know, between the UK and the US and so, you know, I think that's fascinating, I think about that, you know, I think. But I actually, I wonder if you asked this question because of what I just said. I believe what the media has wrong and what society has wrong about social media is they think it's changed us. And I believe that social media has exposed us. And I think the only way an alcoholic, the only way an abusive spouse, the only way someone that's really struggling with something dark can actually fix it is the day he or she says I am. And then they start the process of fixing it, right? I am not, by the way. I did this on a plane at 38 and a half years old in Houston in this great state of Texas, my head on the window, 30 and a half years old. I use a half because I'm 11 years old and I say I'm going to die before 100 if I don't start taking care of myself.
- [98:39]
B
What were you doing?
- [98:40]
A
I just wasn't exercising or eating well and I could feel it. And I said, when I'm 40, I'm gonna start taking care of myself. And by the time that's literally what I said to myself. And by the time I landed in New York three hours later, I said, the fuck am I waiting till 40? And I called Mike Vacanti, who was my last trainer, that I only showed up three times out of 14 sessions, but paid for them all. I said, mike, do you know a young person that can travel with me? Cause I've also figured I need a babysitter. I'm very accountable to others, to my family, to my employees, I'm good. But to myself, I'm like, what up, bro? You know, and so.
- [99:15]
B
Me too.
- [99:15]
A
And he said, what about me? And I literally worked out with him this morning. Ten years later, he's moved to Minnesota. Now he doesn't travel with me full time, but he was on my FaceTime this morning in the hotel in Austin and we worked out. And it changed my life. But I knew it for a decade. The first inklings of 38 was 28. But it took me 10 years of subconscious and conscious talk with myself to finally have the tipping point moment. I believe a lot of people know that I'm right, that social media has exposed us, not changed us. But we're not there yet collectively as 8 billion people. But when we get there, we will look back in 70 years as social media on top of the Internet was a great thing that happened to man. It just was super painful for 25 years getting to the next place.
- [100:03]
B
I wonder how much of the reticence we have around not blaming social media for the way that we behave is that without social media we need to accept that fact.
- [100:15]
A
I love you so much. Accountability is the most interesting conversation on earth right now. We have become obsessed with fingers. Trump sucks. Biden sucks. America sucks. China sucks, sucks. My mom sucks. My dad sucks. My spouse sucks. My boss sucks. Everyone sucks but you. Everyone sucks but you. Our lack of accountability on the back of atrociously bad parenting, that was well intended. Last 30 to 40 years, we over coddled kids, we made 8th place trophies, we did a bunch of dumb shit. We became friends with our kids, not parents that are friendly to our kids. And we've lost our way. It was well intended. I have no judgment as a parent myself. It's fucking impossible. It is the hardest. However, it still is true. And we have become incredible. Of course we blame everybody. So many of us grew up with parents that fought our fights. They ran to the school and yelled at the teacher.
- [101:13]
B
How concerned are you about the relationship between teachers, teenagers and young kids and their use of social media.
- [101:20]
A
I'm concerned if they have parents that didn't create boundaries and created self esteem. So I'm concerned about the most insecure. But I also see it another way that people don't see it. The 14 year old that is getting bullied online was also the 14 year old that was bullied at school when I was growing up. I saw all of them, but they had no outlet. The 14 year old today that's getting bullied online can move from TikTok and delete it and start a twitch stream and hang out with 12 new friends playing a new game and create a beautiful life for themselves. I see that all the time. The kid that I was bullied, that I saw bullied, I'm thinking about one kid right now in Ethel Hoppock Middle school in Asbury, New Jersey in 1989. When I think about him and then what he did in North Hunterdon because I watched him for those four years, he had no outlet, there was no Internet. He was the most lonely. We have decided that this is bad when it's good. These kids can find their friends in other places on fortnight. Do you know how many kids that I know that are not socially winning in school are winning on fortnite with other kids? Why are we not focusing on that? The reason we're not focusing on that is something atrocious happened. World leaders in politics have become incredibly not noble. The way that politicians around the world talk to each other is more similar to the way fifth graders talk to each other than grownups. The lack of civility in our society by world leaders is extraordinary. I mean it's insanity.
- [102:58]
B
It's not statesmanlike.
- [103:00]
A
It, you know what's so funny?
- [103:01]
B
It's not even human.
- [103:02]
A
Like thank you my brother. Statesmanlike, I can deal with that. Just go even look at like five minutes ago, just go look at George Bush. Two. Not even one. That's five minutes ago. We have completely on both sides of the aisle on the BRICS alliance and the US and NATO alliance, fear is being peddled on us at scale.
- [103:23]
B
It's super juvenile.
- [103:24]
A
You know, it's in juvenile, juvenile.
- [103:27]
B
I'm not saying that the UK is that much better. But if you're thinking these are the people that are supposed to be the leaders of the country, they're the ones absurd behaving.
- [103:35]
A
Of course nobody feels good and then you know what trickles down. Then teachers do it, then parents do it.
- [103:41]
B
Well, it's legitimated by the people that are in charge.
- [103:43]
A
That's right.
- [103:44]
B
Even if you know, you can say that in the same breath as having the rebellious American spirit and saying, I am not beholden to any brother.
- [103:52]
A
I don't agree with, with most things that are accepted, but there's a way to do it. I may not agree with you, but I don't think you're a piece of shit and deserve to die. What the fuck's the matter with people?
- [104:04]
B
Talk to me about the future of pickleball.
- [104:06]
A
You know, I fell in love with pickleball here, the video. Back to videoing everything. It's pretty cool. I did a dailyvee. It's probably six years old. It was me and Ryan Harwood playing with Andre Agassi and Andy Roddick here in Austin, Texas. You know, pickleball, esports, padel darts, tag. There's a world tag league. I'm very fascinated by sports in this way. The first super bowl did not sell out. The tickets to the game couldn't sell it out. The 1982 NBA Finals, one of the games was not even aired live in America. It was on tape delay. UFC, I watched UFC 1 with my high school college buddies was like human cage fighting and would never make it another year and was gonna be banned. And our parents like of course we watched it. Cause our parents didn't want us to watch it. I'm fascinated by how sports emerge and how when I think about pickleball and why I like it. Tennis didn't exist all the time. Ping pong didn't exist all the time. I don't like the establishment so much and I like consumer behavior and the truth and what people like. So the future of pickleball is bright. Ish. It's early, it could fall off. But slam ball and all this other stuff, I know just like UFC in a 30 year window went from non existent to I just watched UFC 300 and Max's knockout of Justin is one of the five best moments I've ever seen in sports. And I'm sad cause I love, I love him. But UFC fucks with me. Cause I love all these dudes so much and they fucking bash each, you know, I don't. It's not like wrestling. Wrestling's fun. Like I love Macho man. Fuck Hulk Hogan. Like UFC fucks with me heavy because literally 93.7% of these guys and gals, I adore who they are outside the cage, who they are in the cage. And it was iconic. And I'll be honest with you. And everyone's going ham on it every moment. I'm like Man, I just had a lot of love for Justin, you know what I mean? And I know Justin. I don't know him. I know Justin is such a beast. I'm sure he, like, he's. I mean, he did that to Dustin, like, but, like, it is what it is. But the future of pickleball. I'll go macro at it. I have no idea where it plays out. I hope it's a huge league because I obviously, I own a team, the New Jersey Fives, which means a lot to me. If you go to my Instagram GaryVee, you can see my first pinned post. You'll see why the number 5 means so much to me, why I named my pickleball team after it, 76ers who now I hate, because the Knicks are playing in the first round of fives. But I know in 30 years, you and I will be at a dinner, and I know there'll be a new sport that none of us see. Back to media. What it's not covering that has the complete attention of the world is the coolest thing. Sitting there with basketball and proper football and American football and ufc. And I'll be like, hey. And for some reason, my brain will recall this micro moment. I'm like, remember? You remember, remember. But I didn't call it. It's just history. Like, there's always going to be a new sport every 30, 50 years that comes along. And I want. You know, esports seems very real, but there's so many different games. Like, what's it going to be? VR will be. VR is a good bet. Look, look. It's hard to see a world in 30 years out that VR isn't a big part of our lives. We're starting to see the previews now with Apple and Meta, and it's gonna work. Just like Zoom's worked, Zoom's changed the world. Private aviation with Zoom have created a complete new framework. I mean, the US Government's gonna have to figure out tax law because of Zoom and private aviation, it's not sustainable. States are gonna have to compete with each other in a way that is like, really intense Civil war.
- [107:51]
B
Like, you know, Gary Vee, ladies and gentlemen. Gary, I appreciate you. Your energy is very infectious. I really, really was looking forward to speaking to you, and I like the fact that you're positive about the future. I also think, to kind of summarize what I've learned, the only other person that I know that's similar to yourself is Alex Hormozi. And he is someone for whom play and work are the same thing. And that's the fundamental misunderstanding that people have, I think. So if they realize that what you do for work is what you do for fun, that the work and fun question, the life balance question, is out.
- [108:23]
A
The window, and the life balance question's out the window for everyone. Because, like, the concept of baring your work for 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years is not a good concept. I love people who are like, I work 9 to 5, but I have great work, life balance. I'm like, you sure don't you hate 40 hours a week?