A (4:49)

It's Hard to beat.

B (4:50)

So I think those two things really stand out to me. And then the things, you know, like, I always laugh when I'm about to say it. Cause I know some people are like, Gary, but, like, I do struggle with an obsession to try to teach these kids about patience. You know, I literally punted my 20s and early 30s because I was obsessed with building a business for my parents. But I truly had nothing at 34. Truly. Actually, like, when I started VaynerMedia, my biggest company, we started it in a conference room the size of this podcast studio in another company's conference room because I couldn't pay rent.

A (5:26)

How big is it now?

B (5:28)

Now it's 2,000 plus people. 350 million a year revenue, not valuation, you know.

A (5:36)

Oh, you run a profitable business that actually makes money. Shocking.

B (5:39)

So, you know, it's a big business. And that's only one of yours.

A (5:44)

Like, how many? I was looking it up today. It's like Vayner 3, Vayner Sports, Vayner RSE V Friends, which I think is a different entity. How many like Vayners you got?

B (5:54)

There's Vayner X, the holding company that holds like. That holds like 7 or 8 of the mark. That's the marketing agency. Holding company outside of it is Vayner Sports, because that's a separate business. That's me and my brother. My brother runs that with Greg Gensky. That's becoming a pretty big business. We rep over 100 athletes. Might even be close to 200 now. A newer one is Vayner Watt Watt for Eric Wattenberg. That's a TV production company. Our first shows are going to start hitting the air here in the fall. And like, that's starting to move in groove. Veefriends is the other biggest business I run. That's my Marvel, Pokemon. It's an intellectual property that I do actually believe in my 80s. That's what I will be known for more than anything else I've done.

A (6:37)

And probably nobody understands that right now, right when you launch it. They thought I'd have this quick little NFT thing.

B (6:43)

Yeah. I mean, most people don't understand me and Vayner. Most people don't know Vayner X. Most people, when they just heard 350. Like, when people come to Vayner, they're like, often they're like, what is this? I'm like, this is my company. They're like, most people think I'm a motivational speaker or a content creator, which is fine. I mean, I'm not overly worried about It VCR group. I have a very substantial restaurant group that's going very well. We have that Fly Fish Club which was also an NFT membership.

A (7:12)

It's just there.

B (7:13)

Yeah, it's really going well.

A (7:14)

Yeah, it was beautiful.

B (7:15)

Thank you. Yeah, it's crushing, which is good because that was very high risk, high reward. You open up that kind of eight figure build out. And the restaurant business is not nice. It's the hits business. Yeah, you should hate them. It's a terrible restaurants and sports agencies, bad businesses. Passion though. Chef Capon, Chef Connor, David Rodolitz. My three partners in that business, this is their life. My brother punted Cat a lot of money because he just wants to be a sports agent, you know. And now he's starting after 10 year itch of like, what else should you know? So I think it ebbs and flows. So anyway, long winded. I think I wish kids were like, no, no, I really love sail. Let me start a business around sailing. Whether it's content creation. Let me go work for someone who's in the sailing business for five years. Learn and figure out like that move, like when people hear me say this, like, but Gary, how do I do that? I'm like, why don't you go work for somebody in comedy, in, you know, the fashion. Like everyone has just decided like, I can start a business. And most people are not talented enough in their teens or twenties to build a viable business just yet. You know, the thing is.

A (8:24)

And it's miserable.

B (8:25)

Well, yeah, you know, this, most people, this was a real wake up call for me. When entrepreneurship got cool in like the mid-2 tens, like 20, 10, 11, 12, 13, everyone started running towards it. And I had always been there. I didn't realize how hard it was for people that weren't natural born. But then it made sense to me. Cause I was a really poor student. And like, I just think some people know how to do school. I wasn't one of those people. And I'm like, oh, this is gonna be hard for these people. Cause you know, it's because unlike school, like, I never did homework and failed every test. And the system pushed me through. My school system didn't want people to stay back. They were going for a blue ribbon. They just pushed me through. I literally sit here today, no fucking bullshit. In my four years of high school, I never opened a book, never did homework, never studied for a test, never did a book report, never did a project. And they just pushed me through.

A (9:30)

Which I'm not sure that's good or bad actually.

B (9:33)

Yeah, I mean, it's probably neither. But in business, entrepreneurship, the land of business merit, there's no pushing through. Like, if I did that same thing in business, I'd be out of business very quickly and back at a job.

A (9:48)

And so, yeah, yeah, I saw this stat today, actually. It was on, on Twitter and it was because you always talk about how hard it is.

B (9:58)

Yeah.

A (9:58)

You know, and so there was this tweet today that was like, read this if you're not as rich as you want. And it was the odds of making it, that in the U.S. 1 in 1,000 make over a million in a year. 1 in 11,000 over 10 million, 1 in 35,000, over 20 million. And so the truth is, if you want to make it, you need to be an absolute freak of nature. Basically, you have to have outlier behavior. And I was curious what you think and how hard it actually is because you're oftentimes telling all of us it's going to be harder than you think when we.

B (10:29)

I'm 49. When the number went from when I was a kid, the number was, if I can make 100,000 a year. I grew up in lower middle class, middle class, kind of like vibes, more lower middle class. 100K seemed, I mean, I myself with, you know, I'm 15 years old, I'm gonna buy the jets one day. But there was another part of my brain that was like, man, the only time I was pumped professionally, financially was when I broke the a hundred thousand barrier in a year. No other time. No other time. When that number for the masses became a million versus a hundred thousand, shit got ugly. Like, just like, do you know fucking hard it is to make a million dollars a year? Like, really, actually. And the problem for someone like you and I, if we've gotten there and we spend all our time around people that have gotten there, it doesn't feel rare. One of the, you know, one of the great things that has always happened in my career is I grew again because of where I grew up. I always thought about the other. So one of the first offices I opened for VaynerMedia was Chattanooga, Tennessee. Not LA, not San Francisco, not Tokyo, not London. And one of the reasons I did that was I always wanted to be grounded to everything. Up, down, left, right. When you go to Chattanooga, Tennessee, if you make a million dollars a year, you're fucking on a pedestal. And by the way, Chattanooga has a wealthy area. Old coke money. There's some great entrepreneurs there and it's nice, clean. I like Chattanooga. But look I think that it's incredibly hard and I don't know why people think it's easy. And I do know why I think people think it's easy. In the 80s there was lifestyle rich and famous. In the 90s there was like the Crib show on MTV Cribs. Now 24, seven people are looking at propaganda in their feeds of watches and vacations. And I say, cause I keep hearing everyone wanting to blame Instagram and wanting to blame social media. I say stop consuming it. You know, like if you're motivated by it, great. I don't believe that most people are motivated by it. I think most people get jealous and envious, get insecure, get. And so yeah, I think it's super hard because again, over coddling parenthood in the last 40 years. School is bullshit system, government's bullshit system. Most systems are bullshit. The only two systems that aren't like the most not bullshit system in the world is sports. When little Ricky goes on the field and he's nine, if he sucks at basketball or soccer, it's exposed. No matter how much daddy and mommy wanna make up some excuses, right?

A (13:07)

Used to be, yeah.

B (13:09)

I mean parents are really getting their hands in shit. But still they'll go and fight a teacher. Like parents in the 80s didn't when you got a C, your mom and dad didn't go to school and fight a teacher and try to get a B. They do that now. But even though, I mean I'm in this circles, I have a 15, 12 year old, a 16 now and 12 year old like growing up in this last seven to 10 years. Parents want to go on the field and kick the ball for their kid. People want to go do something but they can't. And then thus the kid gets exposed. Sports is the most merit. The next closest is business. The reason I say it's not the same is, you know this people are like, I'm a three time exiting founder. I'm like, you raised $10 million and sold it for 200. Exactly, you're a fucking loser. You know what I mean? So people can bullshit a little bit. In business there's, you know, there is a but it's, but it's 80% to sports, you know. And I guess in hindsight I was attracted to merit my whole life because those are my two passions.

A (14:08)

I love a, I love a game where you know who wins and loses because it tells you if you're good or not.

B (14:13)

That's right.

A (14:13)

So do you think like when you see that stuff online, I'm Not a big showy person, don't get me wrong. And I like nice shit, like everyone's allowed. Totally. But I don't really. I think it's almost an immediate red flag when I see somebody showing the Gucci, Fendi, Prada, the fast cars and the private planes, I immediately go, I don't know if you really had that. Do you got to flex it? What do you think? Like, if you're talking to a young person, you're saying, don't fucking follow people that do that.

B (14:38)

Yeah. You know, listen, I've taken some lumps from a lot of contemporaries who get mad that I talk about this because so many of them are in it. Look, I think that, first of all, it's so funny where my chemicals just went one of the great things. And it's funny because I pontificate and share and ponder online 24 7. First of all, just to set the ground rules, I do not have the audacity to think that I'm right about anything, Anything, let alone everything for me. I'm in your camp a little bit, but it's because I think a lot of people do that, to funnel people into them, to monetize them. So I think about that a lot. And again, I think it's doing real damage. For, like, when I post every morning, every evening, I genuinely post from the lens, deeply from the lens of why would someone give a fuck about this post? Why is this good for them? And I do believe a lot of people on the other side of this podcast are not growing because almost every post is about what's in it for me. I want people to buy my course, my book, my collectible, my, you know, and so I believe that the flashy stuff is inherently selfish, not selfless. And so, but look, I mean, people are allowed, like, you know, people are allowed to share, like, I get it. Again, a lot of people grew up insecure and wanted these things and they're proud and they want to share it. My big thing is that people that have over indexed on that move I have found over the last 20 years tend to struggle to stay on top, tend to be less happy. So it's not only that the audience that's consuming the Lambo or the Watch that I'm worried about, but I'm even worried about the person that's sharing it. I'm worried that they won't be able to sustain it.

A (16:42)

That's a great, great move. I want to talk to you a little bit about building big companies. You've built a ton and so with your current knowledge today, I'm curious. Let's say you had to go back back to your wine days almost. Let's say you owned a laundromat because I'm into those things. So let's say you owned one laundromat and you had to start your entire empire one laundromat today. Like what would you do?

B (17:06)

What would be the playbook content? Yeah, you know, because you know, you and I are part of a breed that admires a single laundromat owner. And I think you have really done a good job of tapping into something that I think is black and white, which you know, we talked about the last time we hung like this whole. Whether you call it microp or just practical business, obviously Main street is the way you think about it. I think there's a huge opportunity for a lot of those people to build brand. In fact, that's what I did. I built my brand. I am that person. I didn't even own the business. It was my dad's business. I was, I was the person who built it. But my original content as Gary Vee after five years or during the five years of doing the wine show, my original first ever thoughts about business and life and perspectives were literally out of a liquor store, one store and I built my brand. I could have easily, if that's what I wanted, opened up 10 more stores, did micro M and A and I would have built a very substantial franchise or independently owned multi unit business which would be worth a lot of money and in today's environment would be a very attractive PE acquisition as every small business is going to get consolidated, it feels like these days. So I really the number one thing I would do is get into content for two reasons. One, if you're capable, building your personal brand I do believe is a moat. I've always believed that it was the moat. I've talked about it for 15 years that it's the moat. It is the one true asset that doesn't get commoditized. Even in the AI world, you still have your IP. It's your copyright, it's you two, if you learn to be a content creator. The other thing that worked with me and this was hand in hand and this is what I want for this person is you start getting good at running ads and doing content for your business too. So in my brain, what I'm dreaming up right now is Sally's building up her. She's like, I did this, this is how I bootstrapped it. Or I how I inherited it or whatever is real. Here's what I'm doing. Da da da da da. Here's my day to day troubles. Here's how I think about it. Oh my God. Coins. When people stopped having change on them, we had to put in these, you know, swipe your credit card or your, you know, you know, just like the battle stories of that business. But also what she will learn in the story that I'm telling is she'll learn what really every. And by the way, I know a lot of small businesses. Listen, so let me give it to you very straight. Disproportionately, the biggest opportunity to grow your business traffic to your business, average receipt size is to run, if you're a local business that people come to is to run 10 mile radius Facebook ads. And so Sally, in this journey of building up, Sally the laundromat entrepreneur would also start to learn how to be good at these things, which she would then be able to use to run ads to her business, which is advertising matters. It's always mattered. It will always matter. And so content.

A (20:17)

You know what's so interesting too, in your story, I remember looking back at those old videos of you in your wine business. And today everybody wants to have a set, right? We're on a borrowed set. This one isn't mine, but you know, they want to have this fancy set. But you know what the sickest set is today? You're actually Laundromat?

B (20:32)

I think so.

A (20:33)

You know, because it's show, don't tell. It's like, no, no, I own this. I'm not. There's no fluorescent lights here. Watch me do this. You don't think I own it? Look, I'm right here.

B (20:41)

I believe the best studio in the world is the world. I tell my clients, which are mainly Fortune 500 companies, I'm like, look, let's make content at stores, in parking lots, at festivals. I genuinely believe that. I've always believed that. I was honestly the pied Piper in 2009. 10, 11, 12 of no production value. Wine Library TV didn't even have a mic. No lighting, no lighting, no mic. Literally whatever the camera picked up. And so, yeah, I agree with you. I think that store as studio is a big idea.

A (21:16)

That's a good framework.

B (21:16)

Yeah, I think so. Storage Studio is something that I've really championed more privately than publicly. So I'm glad we're getting to pontificate about this. And I think that's right.

A (21:27)

Yeah. And it means you don't have to have a bunch of Money. Because I'm all about the great equalizer. Like yesterday my husband and I were kind of laughing in New York because New York's such an equalizer city in some ways, which is like, yeah, so I could drive like a fancy black car, which sometimes I do. And guess what? If you hoof it or if you subway it, you're faster than me. And so like that's a cool equalizer that doesn't exist in a lot of other places. And so I think this is a good example for content. Like the best performing ads for a lot of our businesses are exactly what you said. It's like it's a window cleaner cleaning a window and then it reveals a price, like that's it. There's no production.

B (22:02)

And so production often, often again is disguising insecurity. Uh huh. A lot of people talk about production. If you listen carefully, it's just an excuse to not do. Anyone who says I can't afford it is full of shit. It's called an iPhone. You all have one. The end. Nothing else. Zero. I did it for fucking a half a decade. A $239 camera from Best Buy was the only, only thing I used. Nothing else. Nothing.

A (22:39)

Such a good point. You know, another thing that I really like about you is you kind of said it earlier. You're like, I take some, I've taken some punches on the Internet and you had this tweet that I was coming back on, which is first they'll call you stupid, then they'll call you lucky. Remember, just make sure that you're always executing and they are spending their time calling you things. And I loved that line. How do you deal with haters?

B (23:03)

Easily. I. With compassion, with empathy. You know, I couldn't comprehend living a life where I spend time trying to tear someone down ever. I was just about to say, you know, we're starting to get to know each other. I think it's one thing in these settings, I think the thing you would find interesting and this is going to make sense to you because I assume, I'm assuming circles and things you've run in as you've built your career. The thing that blew me away growing up in the game was that a players in private settings would spend a lot of time shitting on other a players. It blew my mind. I remember it was happening to me when Scooter Braun, Maverick Carter, some of these people in business were starting to do really well and I'd be at these things. I knew both of them well. So it's probably why it triggered for me when people would be jealous or envious and they themselves sometimes more successful. I was like, this is weird. This is interesting. Let me take note of this. Oh, insecurity. Oh. Like, you know, wow. They don't realize that the world is a bunch. Like, I was fascinated. I just. And I understand it because the one place I'm not me is sports fandom. And my level of envy and jealousy of Michael Jordan and Tom Brady and Bulls fans in that era and Patriot fans is like anger. Like, almost like the most extreme Republican or Democrat feeling about the other side. So I can tap into the emotion that is jealousy and envy and, you know, because I don't feel in control as a fan, but as a real life human, I feel fully in control. And I couldn't comprehend the idea of deploying jealousy or envy against someone else. So how do I deal with haters? Compassion, I mean, they're just not in a good place. Like, there's no other way to say it. Like, could you comprehend spending your time tearing down and so many people do it, and you're like, I just couldn't. Why would I deploy that energy? You know, if I believe something stinks or someone stinks, my immediate reaction is to just walk away in perpetuity. I want to save my energy and time. I got shit to do. Trying to win out here. That. I remember that tweet. I remember that era when I was thinking about it. I always wanted to be an athlete, but it wasn't in the cards. Being a publicly known businessman with, you know, opinions left, right up, down, I'm like, oh, shit, I got to taste it. Like, you know, everyone, it's like, you know, it's like hot takes, you know, and so. And I think about it being an athlete, which is if you're an athlete, you know, just got done with this great Knicks playoff run, but it ended unfortunately just a hair too short. But when you're on the court and they're booing you, if you actually take that in, it's very hard to perform. If you take it in and you get excited, that's how I take it. Like, it's the way I deal with it is 90% indifference and compassion. Like, I'm like, who gives a fuck? Comma, man. Just wish Ricky pants 49 lived a life where he didn't have to, like, be mad at me. Cause I know I'm triggering insecurities for him. And 10% of, like, gangster, I'm gonna slice your throat. Like, all right, motherfucker. Keep talking like, oh, really? Like you think I've made it now let me build Disney in front of your face with vee friends. And you're really gonna fucking be angry at 80. So there's a little bit of that. But I only. But only 10%, which is, I'm like very grateful for maybe 20%. Depends.

A (26:41)

Depends on the day.

B (26:41)

I like being competitive. I enj. In fact, one of my great angers in the world is 8th place trophies. One of my great angers in the world is when two passive parents get lucky enough to birth a competitive kid. Probably took after grandma. And then they tell that kid, like, this game that they're crying about doesn't matter. It only matters. Winning and losing is incredibly imperative to the human race. Nothing is good out of balance. Of course, people like Gary, winning and losing. Is it okay to hurt people to win? No, no, it's not okay. But is it okay to completely eliminate merit and competitiveness and winning and losing? No. No, that leads to, let me say it, slow suicide. This is what people don't understand. When you start to not care about anything, you get into a very dark place. Teaching a young kid nothing matters is a dangerous game or sports don't matter, but getting as matter, you start teaching them fake shit.

A (27:39)

Yeah. I mean, I think also going back and realizing that nihilism is real. And you know, some of the greats have talked about the fact that the most horrible thing you can do to an individual is to take away passion in some way, shape or form.

B (27:56)

It's black and white to me.

A (27:57)

Yeah.

B (27:57)

As someone who's like fueled by it, I can, you know, like we're animals. Like, I can smell it when someone has it. And I can smell it. Only two versions. I can smell. I can't smell the middle.

A (28:09)

Interesting.

B (28:09)

But with passion, I can smell the two opposites. I can smell when someone's got it.

A (28:14)

Yeah.

B (28:15)

Which is why I've associated, invested, and been around a lot of people who went on to become enormous. And I can smell when someone doesn't have it at all, which is why I fucking wake up every morning putting out content to get them out of their darkness.

A (28:27)

Well, actually, I want to talk about that because when I was looking at your investment Rolodex. Holy hell, you have invested in some giant company. I don't think people know half the things about you fully on the Internet. But like Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, Uber, Snapchat, Coinbase. I mean, I could go on and on and on. So how do you smell like a founder that's going to win. How do you know what characteristics a great founder or CEO has?

B (28:52)

Very early on in my career, when I didn't consider myself an investor, I was unstoppable. Facebook, Twitter and Tumblr are my first three investments of my life. I only judged what I smelled. I went on pure intuition about the human and the thesis. I wanted to like the idea. And they were far enough along. I wasn't an angel round. They were a little further more an A or pre A or. Then I thought I was a hero. Cause I was red hot. And I started to like read TechCrunch and spend time in Silicon Valley. And I got caught in an era, a three year era where I invested in just the idea. And I thought if I. What I didn't realize at the time what I was doing is oh, this is a good idea. And I knew how to run it. I put myself into the CEO chair, started spending less time analyzing the person, went through an era of ideas and I lost. I invested in a company called Yobongo that basically became like, basically two years later, an app called Tinder came out and was Yobongo. I loved Yobongo, but the kid was a young kid and I didn't spend enough time analyzing his stomach. His merit. And this was the explosion of like smart kids and engineers becoming founders, which are.

A (30:13)

Sean is an animal. The founder of Tibetan.

B (30:15)

Yeah, Sean.

A (30:15)

Yeah.

B (30:16)

And yes. And so I. But Sean, that was like two years later. Elliot, I think that's what his name was like. I didn't analyze him. So what has worked for me? What has worked for me now when I try to think about it, I think about, do I like the jockey and the horse, right? This hat that I'm wearing. Siegelman Stables, right? Max and Caro, they're a couple and they're a team. I love them. They're gangsters. They've got it. And in the world of kith and rude and palace and Jerry, Fear of God. I understand the business of when you're the hottest up and coming fashion brand. It's a business, you know what I mean? You can get to a nine figure exit from a LVMH or da da da. So, you know, I'm looking for the jockey and the horse now. The jockey being the entrepreneur, the horse being the business. I need to like both and understand both.

A (31:17)

So Sam's sitting across from you and like you're either gonna hire me or invest in my company. What are you asking me to tell if you like me or not or Want to take a bet on me?

B (31:26)

Usually, here's how it goes. I'll go with, hey, Cody, so nice to meet you. I'm so excited about this. Tell me everything. Literally, that's what I will say. Tell me everything is kind of a go. It's not like my go to question. It's just what I happen to think. It's what I happen to mean. Tell me everything. Like, as much as you wanna tell me either about yourself or the business, go, I listen carefully and then my series of questions is predicated on what I listen to. I'm counter punching the reality of what I heard. I don't have a go to other than I need as much context as possible from you right now about you or it. I'm 49, have been pretty much successful in anything I've run and have had plenty of winning and losing in investment. I can listen and know where I want to go. Sometimes after that code, it's over. Like, even off the rip, right? Like, it's over because, you know, at this point, I have such a public life too. Like, I can feel when someone's pandering to like, well, Gary, I love the hustle and the grit and I love flip. Like, you know, I can tell when someone's trying to game me. And then even if they're trying to game me, I won't even. Like, that doesn't eliminate them. That's just a data point.

A (32:35)

Right.

B (32:36)

Again, because I'm now 49, 22. So for 27 years, for 27 straight years, every day of my life, I have had to be responsible to make payroll with no funding. 27. Like, I'm a real actual operator. And so it's very easy for me to ask questions, you know, how fast can you tell? Sometimes immediately, it's like, you know, like many of us listening know what love at first sight feels like, or crush at first sight, everybody knows, or like immediately knowing. I'm incredibly intuitive. My emotional intelligence is disproportionately my go to. So I can tell right away. I can't tell right away if I'm gonna hire someone or invest or if someone's a genius. I can tell right away the things I'm feeling. Like this is potentially someone remarkable. I can always tell when someone's just an average C player right away, you know what I mean? Pretty quickly. But again, C players for my businesses, when I hire, I love a good C because I think we have a system to get people to Bs, and I think Bs are great.

A (33:53)

Interesting. So you are okay with B and C players? Let's talk about that.

B (33:57)

Actually, I think most companies, when you're at scale, need plenty of B and C players. A players are always looking.

A (34:04)

How do you define that though, then? Because it's like you don't want to have A. A culturally toxic C class.

B (34:12)

By the way, I think my five posts ago on Instagram is give me an A plus personality and a C player, because C personality is death on arrival. C, let alone dnf. And there are plenty of those people. No, I'm talking about, like, you know, brain power. You know, like. Like firepower. Right? Like, not everyone's the sharpest fucking most. You know, like. Like, it's just real life work ethic. Work ethic. You can't really tell in an interview. I feel like work ethic's one that you can see more play out and then you decide. I just think that we in my companies care to level people up and we continue to get better at it, and that's really working for us at Scale toy with a lot of retention. But, yeah, I think I'm looking for firepower, intellectual firepower, personality traits. I'm trying to poke at, like, self awareness. I look for humility. I'll give you one that is always let down. Hey, Cody, I'm super excited about this. You know, you're gonna come in and be at a VP level at Vayner, which is a big role. Like, you're actually like, I think the VP director role at my company is really running the Companies above the SVPs and the C suite. You know, we're in an interview, I'm saying that, and then I'm like, code real talk. Like, don't bullshit. I'll say like this, hey, real talk. Don't bullshit me, because I'm going to find out anyway. And I want you to be here a long time, and I want you to win. Here. Give me one of your shortcomings in your career. When people go to Gary, sometimes I care too much, and I like that. I'm like, it's over. You know what I mean? Like, give me something real, please. You know what I mean?

A (35:52)

Like, it's too hard.

B (35:53)

It's like, why? When I realized, you know, five to seven years ago, that lack of candor, which is crazy because Gary Vee's candor's off the charts. But Gary Vaynerchuk, the executive. When I realized lack of candor, I struggled giving critical feedback. Yeah. And then the firings would be sloppy because of that, because People would be surprised when I really had that moment in the mirror with myself. What am I? Maybe 49, maybe 42, 43, 44? When I had that moment, literally the next day, I started putting it out publicly. That's when I wrote 12 and a half. Because I literally wrote an entire book because I wanted to put out there my shortcoming of candor.

A (36:37)

Interesting. Which people probably almost don't believe because.

B (36:41)

Correct. Because my strength is candor as a public figure talking about things. But Gary Van and Gary Vaynerchuk, I'm the same. I think. You know, one of the things I always smile about is when people work for me or get to know me. They're like, it's so cool that you're. I'm the same, but it's a different context.

A (36:59)

Yeah.

B (36:59)

You know what I mean? Like, I'm talking to the blank world right now versus someone who's worked for me for three years. Here's where my bleeding heart becomes a vulnerability. You stink. At Vayner for the last six months. It's now a problem. You've been here for five years. You've given it all. You've always really given it all. It's a problem. We're leveling up. It's a problem. People around you are fucking pissed. You're not good enough. You're getting paid more than people that are better than you. Underneath you. It becomes a problem. But I know. Cause I'm so HR oriented. But I know that your dad has cancer. And I know that you just broke up with your boyfriend. And I'm struggling to fucking fire you. I don't know what else to tell you. It's fucking hard. The end. I don't know what else to say.

A (37:44)

Never feels good. It doesn't. But I think also one of the cool things about you is you are so big. You've been around for so long publicly, that also the tough part is sometimes that's the person that's coming in and firing you, or that's the person that's giving you the critical feedback. It's like this extra fucking layer on top of everything.

B (38:03)

You'll appreciate this. I love you for that. You're right for some. At 22, at 26, at 29, at 31, at 34, in the wine store, when nobody on earth knew who I was. It was my biggest weakness. Yeah.

A (38:14)

Interesting. Interesting. So still always the same.

B (38:17)

I just. I just. There was a level of confidence, slash, potentially ego. I always thought I could make it better. Like, I definitely, definitely would have been the Girl that would have went after like up dudes because I thought I could make them better. I would have definitely been that girl. A hundred thousand. I know it in psychics.

A (38:35)

Him. Yeah.

B (38:36)

And not like in like a fucked up way, in an optimistic way. Not in a, like, like I'm a psycho in a, in a, in a. You know. And the problem for me is I have. My problem in a lot of ways is there are many people within my organization's startups, friend groups, boards I'm on because I'm so into guidance counselor, coach, therapist energy. And I have such a yin and yang because of the emotional intelligence, but because of the operational and because of like just wanting to kind of do to the world what my mom did for me. I've been successful at it. I'm just like. Names are running through my head right now where like people started off at like a 3 emotionally and are at an 8 strictly because I put my fucking hand on their shoulder. Every teacher, therapist, coach, guidance counselor knows what I'm saying right now. And you know how rewarding that is. Like, I've changed the course of this human being's life. I'm doing that with content to the world, let alone imagine someone I can put my hand on their shoulder. So it becomes intoxicating in like, it feels good to help other people for certain people. I know many people don't feel the way I feel, but for me it feels good. I like it. It feels like the right thing to do.

A (39:53)

What is the opposite of that? What is like the advice that you keep having to repeat that, you know, people need to listen to and they just don't.

B (40:03)

Every single, by the way, every single thing I say, patience, like insecurity, don't keep up with the Joneses. Fuck materialism, eat shit. It's both the left and the right struggle with me and like me, right? Because in one side I'm like compassion and all the feelings and everyone's like, ah. On the other side I'm like, kill every fucker. It's all compet, like because it is purple. Because life is purple. The reason there's so much tenseness right now is the world. The youth, the elderly, the left, the right, the 40s, every generation, Z, X, Y, boomers, Alpha, we're fighting for. It's red or it's blue and like motherfuckers, it's purple. You fucking idiots. You fucking idiots. It's fucking purple. How the fuck don't you understand that? So you know what? People struggle with everything I say, you know When I tell parents that you gotta stop giving your kids money after they're 22. Every 20. Every parent right now listening, who's got a 27 year old on the payroll doesn't like getting poked like that. But I'm on the receiving end of all this fucking depression. DMs from 28 year olds that are on the payroll because parents don't realize if you're paying for your kid when they're a grown adult. You're telling your kid you don't believe in them through your actions, not your words, they know they're a loser. Yeah, that shit hurts, you know?

A (41:33)

So what do the, what do the parents say to you when you say that? Like, what's their excuse for continuing to do that?

B (41:42)

You know, in the most private conversations? It's, it's just surface level justifying, you know, like, oh, you don't know my son. Like, he had this issue. I'm like, everyone had issues. Do you understand? Every Person in the 80s in New Jersey got bullied. Every single kid I grew up with got bullied. The popular ones, the not popular, like, we. We've started making these words so big. I told somebody yesterday, don't use the word anxious. You're not, you're inconvenienced. You know, like, we've now just gotten so deep into this shit. This is why so many people are struggling. We've given them permission to not do and fight and fix. Ooh, that's. I've never said it that way. We have given people with all these big words. Do you know what imposter syndrome is? It's called insecurity. We've just given it makeup. Nobody's like, yo, I'm insecure. Nobody says that code. But so many people are like, man, I have imposter syndrome. Makeup. Got it. The definition, literally the definition of imposter syndrome is slang for I'm deeply insecure. But nobody comes around and says I'm insecure. But everybody. I have anxiety. People say they have depression when they don't. And that fucks up for people that actually do. I feel bad for the people that actually do.

A (43:17)

It's a great point.

B (43:18)

And it's confused everybody. Everybody. Do you know how bad I feel for all the people that own big businesses who like, every person's like, I need a mental health day. And they're like starting to cancel mental health days. And meanwhile of the hundred people that are abusing it cause they just want to play video games, are doing fucking nothing. Cause I lived that life do you know how many sick days I had from 1982 to 1994? A million. I tried to get out of school every day. And boy, when fifth grade Gary found out that legally they had to send you home if you went to the nurse and weren't refusing to go back, well, I fucking cooked. I mean, that was everything to me, that discovery. I don't know if I've ever been happier in my life. In fifth grade, somehow I don't remember. I don't wanna bullshit. I don't remember how, but I learned that you could actually will your. You could just stick. If the nurse said, go back to class, you're like, I don't feel well. That if you kept going, they had to send you home. I mean, I didn't, so I didn't.

A (44:16)

Your immigrant parents beat your ass for that?

B (44:18)

Well, it was funny. This is why I put my mom on a super pedestal. My mom knew that getting as in school was not going to lead to my success and happiness. And she did something most parents weren't willing to do and are still not willing to do. And she didn't give a fuck what everybody thought about my D's and F's. Got it. She knew me.

A (44:39)

But is that because somewhere else you were showing her obsession?

B (44:43)

Of course.

A (44:43)

Because if you. Because if you were a parent that.

B (44:46)

Just was like, D's and F's, fuck off.

A (44:47)

That would be.

B (44:48)

She's the same lady that looked at me on my 14th birthday and said, you know how you suck at school? I'm like, yeah. She's like, now you work. I was 14, 14 code.

A (44:57)

I like her.

B (44:58)

Like, I worked every weekend, every summer. My last childhood moments, like, childhood ends in eighth grade. There was no. There was no fun in high school for me. There was no. Like, I didn't. Like, I worked because I had to pay the consequences of not working in the classroom. Thank God for me. Work was my nirvana. Like, thank God for me. I loved my parents so much. Thank God for me. I knew. I knew as a teenager that I had it because I was doing baseball card shows at 11 and 12 and grown men, you know, this is why I love. Like, that's where I was getting validation from in school. I was getting D's and F's and grownups were telling me I was gonna be a loser. Teachers in the 80s didn't fuck around. I had teachers like Mr. Dr. DiBella and Martin Luther King elementary School in 1987 said I was going to be a four. Fucking loser.

A (45:54)

Makes you feel any better. My math teacher told me Helen Keller would have a better shot of winning an archery contest than I would have been in finance.

B (46:01)

Oh, my God, 100%.

A (46:02)

But God, what great fuel. Honestly, pretty thankful.

B (46:07)

Yeah. But then I was doing baseball card shows at 13, making 800 bucks while the grownup to the left and right at my table were making 300. Cause it was a crappy show. And my mom picks me up at Sunday night to like pack up and drive me home. And I've got two 30, 40, 50 year old men telling my mom, like, your son's a genius. Because I was doing all sorts of weird shit that nobody else was doing. And so, yeah, I mean, I just. That was like, what? Like the dollar rack. Like, I was. I was selling like 50, 60, 70 cent and $20, $30 cards that you can't move those cards. But because I merchandise them as a dollar rack with a huge sign, everybody just stopped by and bought cards. My friend Brandon Warnicke, who in my life, we met at 14, we did baseball card shows. He runs the wine library. I talk to him every day. He's one of the few humans on earth I talk to every day. I mean, he was baffled by the dollar rack. When I put it out, he was like, that's not gonna work. And then like three hours later, there's not a card left in the dollar rack. Merchandising matters.

A (47:11)

Explain what that is to somebody who doesn't know what merchandising is.

B (47:14)

How a human sees it on the other side, when you walk into, like, you know how some of you like. Like, it's very simple. It's like. Think about. The best way to describe merchandising is to describe to everybody their home. Some of us, like me, are comfortable in slobbery. You know, crap on the floor, room doesn't smell. I mean, I was a cliche dude, right? Like, laundry on the ground. Like, room smells like shit. Like, things everywhere. Like, who gives a. Like, don't even do laundry. Like, where to sit? In my teenage. Oh my God, such a dude. Other people can't even fall asleep in their apartment in their, like, room unless the fucking scent is perfect. Everything's perfect. Like, good. So like, like how something shows up for you. I get excited walking up to a garage sale where shit's all over the place. But. But let me take a different angle on it. So that's the setting. Now imagine, like, why are you grabbing something when you buy? Like, I always ask myself after I do it, why did I just pick that up? It's on the end cap. It's at the register that sign the presentation, by the way. Merchandising is the fashion industry. You know, like presentability, but like, what compels something, someone to grab an item. That's always what I thought about the sign, the positioning, the location within the store, the eyesight level. Do you understand that retailers, like, think like, I think like a retailer. Like, what's at eye level is what sells. Bottom shelf doesn't sell. When I used to get mad at a supplier, if we didn't have like good negotiations or like they weren't supporting us, I took their most important products and put on the bottom shelf. Merchandising, you know, I obsessed. When I was 15, I. When I was 6, 15, 16, I was allowed to go upstairs. Before that, I was downstairs in the warehouse. And when I was at the register bagging for the cashier, which is what I was doing. And then I became a cashier at 16. I could see how people walk. Based on where my dad's registers were. I could see people walk in and we were slow. We were still local store at that point. I would watch every customer, they'd walk in. What did they grab? Why? So it's presentation, how your table's laid out. It's why I was good at UI and UX. When the Internet came along, all the designers in 97, 98, 99, 2000 were like, yo, you're really good at this. Cause I thought like a consumer, like, why would they click that button? What about below the fucking scroll? What about the checkout? I literally had, you know, empty cart or like lapsed cart or whatever it was called. What the hell is it? Abandoned carts. I remember going to my developer in 2000 being like, can we see who didn't check out? Like, like, it was like, you gotta understand, this is early Internet.

A (50:05)

Ah, didn't exist.

B (50:06)

Like, we didn't.

A (50:07)

Because you're thinking in the store, hey, that guy's walking out. Like, sir, did you not find something that that's what you would do?

B (50:12)

Exactly what I would do. So I was like, is there an inner. Wait a minute, there's an Internet version of this. I'm like, Eric Kastner. Big shout out to him. Eric, can you see in the code? Like, I don't even know what to call it. The code. The server who. We used such funny words back then. He's like, yeah, we started emailing people that had abandoned carts and fucking crushed. So, like, you know, merchandising is.

A (50:34)

It's so funny. Because the other day I went to. This was two days ago, I went to the Harry Potter store here. And the reason why, same thing you said. Who's better at merchandising in the fucking world than the entertainment space? And I think arguably Harry Potter. Probably one of the best of our lifetimes. Right?

B (50:49)

One of the incredible IPs that we saw birth.

A (50:52)

Exactly. And when you walk into that store, it's always packed.

B (50:56)

Packed.

A (50:57)

And it is huge margin. It's incredibly well designed. And like, they rotate merch. But what I've kind of noticed is they don't rotate it that much.

B (51:05)

Yeah.

A (51:06)

Like, it's not like they always have to have.

B (51:07)

Are you a huge Harry Potter fan?

A (51:09)

I'm a big Harry Potter fan, but I'm not crazy.

B (51:12)

You're not crazy, but you're very solid.

A (51:14)

Yeah. Yes. And so watching that taught me a lot about, okay, well, if we're ever going to do merch, how do we do this? Right? How do I make every person who comes in, they have those little greeters? You know, Sam Walton, I loved that he was like, looking to cut costs, but also put a greeter in front because he realized, oh, it makes people feel different too. Like they're special for coming to the store.

B (51:35)

To that point. I do that too. I don't like the middle. So I would say what I see with a greeter at Walmart is not playing in the middle. It's like price, convenience all the way here on the right, but then spend on things that others don't spend on. Cause it changes the context of the relationship. I always talk about scale the unscalable. Actually, here's a tidbit. I believe one of the great misses right now for all of the characters like you and I and everybody else that's aspiring to, like, win on content and brand is community management. I really do believe that way more people need to DM everyone back if you and I do not have that bandwidth. But I'm telling you right now, if you're just kind of getting into your early stages and you have like 10,000 followers and you're posting and you're getting 14 comments, you're getting 13 dms a day reply to all of them. Scale the unscalable. That's how I built GaryVee, by the way. Content and replying to everyone on Twitter from 2007 to 2011, you kind of.

A (52:38)

Still do it on scale. Because I remember when I came and spoke at bcon, bcon, I came and spoke. That's normal. I'll go speak at people's events. It's an amazing event. I had a great time. Very seldom does the head of the entire event ask to get my phone number and text me direct. That's really actually not that scary. I mean, how many speakers did you have there? Hundreds.

B (52:59)

Yeah.

A (53:01)

Not to mention that's not your only event. Not to mention you're doing these all over the world. That's actually not even that scalable for you.

B (53:06)

Yep.

A (53:06)

And so it seems like there's different levels to the game, but you still do the unscalable even at the highest level.

B (53:13)

I think the dirt and the clouds are the only interesting parts of the game.

A (53:19)

That's good.

B (53:20)

Yeah. And so even in my own organization, people ask me how I scale Vayner And I say 10, 80, 10. And they're like, what does that mean? I go, when we're doing important shit, I tell the team I have to be involved in the first 10% because I'm molding it. Then I disappear. And then you need to come back to me to close it. I open and close. The middle's the problem. And winners and people aspiring to build big things spend way too much of time in the middle. Meetings. I've famously, internally and a little bit externally obsessed with 15 minute meetings. I had an epiphany. I was like, fuck, I crushed the dirt. The 15 minute meeting. I'm fucking up the clouds. I have a lot of one hour meetings that are actually three hour meetings. I've done more off sites, two, three day off sites this year. We're not even halfway through than I've done in the last 10. And it's been monumental. I had this epiphany in November, December of last year. I'm like, wait a minute, I've got the 15 minute meeting down. But, you know, this is about, like feeling your feelings. I could feel that a lot of important meetings that were an hour weren't getting wrapped up. So now I'm doing a lot more two and three hour meetings and even two and three day off sites. 10, 80, 10.

A (54:32)

That's a great framework because otherwise it does seem too much. And you can get stuck in micromanagement forever. You're like, I'm trying to build a business. Gary and Cody, you said do that. And I need to have my hands on everything and I need to care about the dirt. But you can't all the time.

B (54:44)

Oh, my God. I would argue for your own, like the SMB audience, like the mainstream audience, the number one reason they lose is they Spend all their time in the 80. That's why my dad got small, didn't go as big as he could. He needed, he wanted to know everything, wanted to touch everything. Many small business entrepreneurs are just trying to be solopreneurs. They don't realize it. They're scared of stealing, insecurity, someone getting better at it and leaving. There's all these millions of different things that people are worried about. 10, 80, 10.

A (55:14)

I was wondering like. So we've told them that content matters.

B (55:20)

Yes.

A (55:20)

We've told them that if you're running a small business, you should think about building up your brand. We've talked a little bit about ip like all of this talks about content. But the number one of the biggest questions I get asked by business owners in our portfolio is how do you find great talent? How do you find the person to help you with social media?

B (55:38)

By realizing you need to be the person that first understands it a little bit. How do you judge something you don't know? If I went into a surgery, surgery right now, heart surgery and I needed to judge what's going on. We have a problem. It's called I have no idea what the fuck is going on. Everybody who's listening. When you own a business, it is hard. When you own a business, you have to be adaptable. When you own a business, you have to deal with the shit. I know that you don't like it. You may even have an ideological disagreement with social media. You must be the person that learns it a little bit so that you can judge the talent. It's not about finding the talent. It's that everybody gave the job to their 20 year old niece because they thought like, oh, you're a kid, you get it. The problem is the 20 year old niece and nephew use social media to fucking hook up, not to build a big business. So you know my answer, and I talk to a lot of these businesses as well is you have to spend 50 to 100 hours educating yourself and then doing. You can't read about pushups to get the results. You have to read and watch videos and listen. I even made it easier for you. Garyvee.com attention I literally took my last book, which is 20 fucking dollars. I'm like, you can't afford 20 bucks. How about this? A 44 page free deck to tell you exactly what to do.

A (57:05)

But I recommend the book.

B (57:06)

Thank you.

A (57:07)

I gave day trading attention to all of my social team.

B (57:10)

Thank you.

A (57:11)

Yeah, well again you said thank you, but I said no thank you.

B (57:14)

No, I get it. Actually, it's why I believe in books. I'm like, I cannot believe I charge hundreds of thousands of dollars to clients for, you know, consulting. And this $20 fucking book is like pretty much there.

A (57:26)

Yeah, 100. Well, and, and you know, to be fair, why wouldn't I steal your 27 years doing this?

B (57:32)

And more importantly, my actual living the thesis of the book. It's not my only 30 years of working. It's my last 12 to 18 months.

A (57:40)

Yeah, that was different.

B (57:41)

You know what I mean? Like, that's what's so interesting about the books I write. I don't write Evergreen books. Day trading attention is just to follow up to jab, jab, jab, right hook.

A (57:50)

Yeah, you're right.

B (57:50)

It's just 10 years later because shit changed. All I want to do, I'm incredibly obsessed with the contemporary. I want to be obsessed with the history to understand the contemporary. And then I just want to be of today.

A (58:03)

There was this great line actually when I was coming up with a bio on you that I was reading to Kate that is, I think, perfect for you. And it was about the fact that you are pathologically practical about where eyeballs were moving. That is so true. You're pathological. Like you are obsessed. And I think that's what it takes to win, I guess. I want to close out with two questions here, please. One of them is, you know, you've mastered these underpriced attention platforms at varying times. You talk about it in all of your books. At any given time, there's an underpriced platform. So let's give the people the non evergreen. What is that today? Where is the underpriced attention today?

B (58:46)

Live social shopping. If you sell anything, and this is huge for your crew, if you sell anything, you know, that's not like a physical thing, not a service. Vaynermedia doesn't do this. I can't do this. With Vaynermedia, we don't sell a physical thing. If you sell a physical thing, which a lot of you do, every one of you has to learn everything you can about TikTok shop and whatnot. What and ot. Those are the two leaders right now. I expect meta, Google, Twitter, everybody to get into this game. Live social shopping is the underpriced attention. There are a ton of creators right now who will never get millions of followers and make millions of dollars, but if they switch to being someone that sells something on social instead of making lifestyle content, they will make millions of dollars.

A (59:35)

So smart.

B (59:36)

I forced Mike to do a garage Salad Mike did a garage sale on whatnot this Saturday. I made 700 bucks. Yeah. 648. Now, I know you sold some trading cards and stuff like that, but you also. Because I heard you were gonna do just trading cards. I'm like, no, no, no. I need you to, like, sell some random shit in the house. Give me one example of something that was literally sitting, collecting dust in your apartment. And you sold for how much a box of Legos for 17 bucks that I hadn't touched in three years. Right.

A (60:08)

Do we include shipping and handling?

B (60:10)

Yeah, you charge the. Like, I love this. Every time I do garage sales and everything, everybody's like, what about the shipping? Like, you charge shipping. What about the ebay fee? I'm like, everything has a cost. Like, you know, like, people love an excuse, right? People look for the why not? I literally think garage sales and flea markets are gonna happen. In live social shopping. It's not just someone who starts a beauty brand or like, those storage units.

A (60:32)

Kate, we're doing your storage unit. She has one here.

B (60:35)

Yeah.

A (60:35)

That she's had for two years.

B (60:36)

Right. She's paying monthly fees.

A (60:38)

She's paying 25 bucks a month. Yeah. We should just do it live on YouTube.

B (60:42)

Not YouTube, because they don't have that yet.

A (60:45)

Well, that's. So I want to turn it into a YouTube video, but do it live on whatnot or TikTok.

B (60:49)

You should make a YouTube video because that's great, because that's content, but live. The QVC ification of social media is here. Listen to these stats. 30%. This is a stat. I'm always a little weird with stats, but this is real. China is fully here. China's got, obviously one of the biggest economies in the world. Live social shopping in China now by the most conservative estimates, represents 30% of all E commerce in China.

A (61:18)

Get the fuck out.

B (61:19)

A half a trillion dollar economy of live shopping in China that is bigger than almost every nation's economy in the US I just had the CEO of qvc. He put out this stat that I'm gonna try to validate this week, but. But it feels right. Ish. He's like, we're already at 6% on live shopping in the US and no one's even seeing it yet.

A (61:46)

What's that? Do we know what that is compared to what QVC used to be? Cause it was like, a lot then, nothing then now.

B (61:52)

Growing QVC has always been a ton, okay? And it's not a lot. It was still doing an ungodly amount of business. There's something about the behavior. You're almost like paying for the entertainment. You're like tipping the host. You're like part of the community. I have this concept called commerce tainment. So ready, how about this? You're a hairdresser right now, listening. And you sell shampoos and other shit, soaps and all the fucking shit in your place. Right. You can go live on whatnot. Right now at the bottom of the screen is like this $12 shampoo. And you could just buy it while you're teaching people how to use the shampoo on a customer. This is real Tea with Gary Vee, which I really did really well during COVID I've brought back. I love doing Q and A on tea with GaryVee. I now do it on whatnot. Not on Instagram Live. I do it on all my socials, but I drive to whatnot. I drink out of a veefriend's mug and the mug is pinned at the bottom of the screen. And while I'm doing the show, people are buying the mug.

A (62:58)

Get out.

B (62:59)

Commerce tainment. I'm not even selling in that format.

A (63:03)

It's just subliminal right there.

B (63:05)

Yeah. Or I'll make a reference of like, hey, you like my mug? It's a mini commercial. It's not even a commercial.

A (63:14)

You just like experimenting. Like that's part of your thing. You just never stop experimenting.

B (63:18)

Yes. After it's been validated.

A (63:20)

Okay.

B (63:20)

I have a trillion dollar stuff of stuff sells in China now. We have those functionalities. It's going to happen here. It's, it's happening here. TikTok shop is insane. You, for your portfolio, must deeply understand TikTok shop. So live social shopping is one of them within social. I'm a big fan for people that are obsessed with TikTok on Snapchat Spotlight. So Snapchat Spotlight is much smaller, but it's their TikTok, right. It's in their UI and there's a fuckload of 15 to 30 year olds in it. But here's the good part. Supply and demand of attention. Like I talked about in day trading, there's a lot of kids on it. They spend a lot less time on it than they do on TikTok. When I say kids, I say 15 to 30. So if you sell to 15 to 30, but nobody's. But the supply's low. Nobody's posting on there. So I'm very hot on Snapchat Spotlight Substack I think is really, really interesting. I'm about to delve in IRL streaming.

A (64:20)

So Twitch, you gotta check out Beehive. I'm an investor in it, so I'm very biase.

B (64:25)

I will absolutely do that.

A (64:26)

And they're here. I've never met Faster Builders. We invest in a lot of companies. And shout out Tyler Dank. He's an absolute psychopath. He's like what you talked about.

B (64:34)

Speed.

A (64:35)

I think he's going to eat Snapchat substacks lunch.

B (64:38)

I love it. Yeah. Yeah. Look, and it's not even. You know this. You're too smart for this. I don't think Beehive is going to eat Substacks lunch. I think it's an and not an or.

A (64:48)

Yeah.

B (64:49)

Do you know what I mean?

A (64:49)

Yeah.

B (64:50)

Like. Like there's too big. It's too big of addressable market.

A (64:53)

Yeah, very true.

B (64:54)

Or Lyft.

A (64:54)

That's true.

B (64:55)

Like when I was like, oh, Lyft. Because I was early investor in Uber, I was like, oh, fuck, Lyft's gonna do well. But I wasn't like, want multiple to do well. Yeah. I mean, look, like when you're on it, like, I don't want the Patriots, Bills and Dolphins to do well. Like, I don't mind competition, I just know it is.

A (65:10)

Yeah.

B (65:10)

Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

A (65:11)

But if you have a few, then you grow the market share entirely.

B (65:13)

Yeah. Which usually both of those companies are going into a trend that's happened.

A (65:17)

Yeah.

B (65:17)

Like Medium was. I was an investor in Medium, which was EV Williams, who's an iconic entrepreneur, co founder of Twitter. And before that, Odo and Blogger before that. And one of the first blogging platforms, subscription Patreon OnlyFans. And then the social sites are gonna start. You can already see some of the moves they're doing. Like, fuck all these other places we've got all the audience we're gonna monetize. So there's a lot to it. But these are things I'm looking at every day.

A (65:49)

Let's end on AI.

B (65:50)

AI.

A (65:51)

So what are your craziest predictions when it comes to AI?

B (65:56)

Well, I've gone pretty viral lately because my craziest prediction is that most people's grandchildren will marry an AI robot.

A (66:02)

Fuck my life.

B (66:03)

Some of them will. Not everyone's going to. But I think this is the biggest thing we've seen since the Internet. It's that big. When the Internet came along, my thesis when I was a kid was, oh, this is like. Like, I bet my life on it. And the bet was, this is the biggest transformation ever. And, like, everybody will be on the Internet. And when I tell you, when I said that in 95, six or seven people laughed. Laughed. When people are like, when they talk about AI, I don't think they realize it's oxygen. Like, when I get excited about the blockchain, NFTs, Bitcoin, that is a big deal. When I get excited about social media, that was a very big deal. Email, Google, search, these are big deals. This is a level above. This is Internet and AI. Meaning I view AI as almost boring to talk about because is it fun to talk about the Internet as a foundation? Like, no, we talk about the things on top of it. To me, AI is now like, omnipresent. It's a reality of life. And there's a real decade of recalibration, reckoning, disruption, opportunity. I'm baffled at anyone who's not spending an hour a day learning about AI and using AI. I couldn't imagine. And I spend a lot of time prompt engineering. Just if you don't know what that means, Google it or AI it. And that's what's so funny. Even Googling it. I noticed I said to somebody the other day, I'm like, AI it's like, go Gemini it go perplexity. Go Gronk it Go OpenAI chatgpt it. Like, it's like, it's huge. And it's like the wildest predictions are the Internet of things. IT thinking for you, IT ordering. I think all of shopping will be done by agents for you based on your behaviors. It will know better that you wanted that outfit than you knew.

A (67:59)

Facebook already knows me better than my husband with shopping.

B (68:01)

Well, that means most things know things better than husbands know, but we're a bunch of idiots. I think that it is very clear to me that we are going into a transformative half century where AI will be like the piping of this reality. Piping, railroads, infrastructure, oxygen, whatever you want to call it. This is the biggest thing that's happened in a long time.

A (68:29)

Let's give people a couple things to do on that. Somebody's listening. They're like, all right, IT Gary told me to do AI. What does do AI daily in order to get better at it?

B (68:37)

Look like inside of Twitter X using Gronk Perplexity or Google Gemini or probably the one that chat GPT is so strong and so easy and common for people. Download it and use it every day, like, and then use it to, like, you. Like, here's how I use AI. Hey, hey. Hi. Like, hey, what are the. This is what I do actually. Almost every week. What are the five AI apps that popped in the last week that I should pay attention to? AI is answering that question for me so that I can go look at those apps and understand what's happening. Also, real quick, because I know a lot of smart investors. Listen here. Be very careful in investing in AI. The reason I haven't yet is every week you think you just invested in the best X, and a week later, somebody crushes that. The speed. You want to talk about speed? The speed in which, like, these apps are getting updated and better is profound.

A (69:32)

Yeah. It is the first time that I am annoyingly an evangelist for tech. That is not something I've invested in or own. Like, I won't shut up about, like, whisper flow. Fuck the keyboard. The keyboard's gone. You just, you know. Yeah. You just voice text, and it's perfect from now on. I mean, that's wild.

B (69:49)

What about. What about. What about the fact that nobody has to learn a language anymore? Everyone's gonna have earpods that, like, you're gonna talk to somebody, they're gonna be speaking Spanish, and you'll hear it as English, and you're gonna speak English, and they'll hear it as Spanish and Portuguese and Korean. Like, there's profound things coming. But the wildest one is we're gonna fall in love with these AIs, and then we're gonna put that in love AI into robot bodies. And those robot bodies are gonna go from looking like RoboCop to looking like, you know, Megan Fox, Sydney Sweeney, and, you know that Megan Fox movie is a preview. Yeah.

A (70:25)

Does that make you sad?

B (70:27)

No, it doesn't. No. No. It makes me. It makes me understand that this is how it's always been. You know, like, cavemen were different than you and I were. Supposedly, we were apes. Right? So, like, does it make our apes mad that we, like, you know, like, shit changes. Like, I look, I'm not like, people are always like, gary, that's gross, or like, you need Jesus. I was like. I'm like, look, I'm not advocating for it.

A (70:53)

Yeah, you're just predicting.

B (70:55)

In fact, I'm advocating for simplicity. I think it's. I'm sad for people that wear gold chains and fucking take pictures in private planes. So I love when people are like, this is sad. I'm like, you're sad. You know, this is what's brewing. This is what could happen. You're asking for a prediction, I'm guessing, but it fucking feels like it's coming.

A (71:17)

I. I think you're sadly I think you're right. I do think it's a little sad. But that is every generation.

B (71:22)

By the way, I go back to this. We're in charge. If you think it's sad as a human, one day you can parent and grandparent your kid into understanding the value of a human versus a robot. Right? The problem is that we have to get more comfortable with being uncomfortable. The reason the robots are trending in my opinion long term is we want everything perfect. It's exactly what you know. But by the way, like, are we, like are we robots? Like let me explain. Ozempic, vanity, hair extensions, boob jobs, fucking testosterone, hgh. Like makeup. Like, you know, like people can argue worse that we become very, very, very visual. Like 40, 50 year old men and women like you and I two generations ago do not look like the way we look. And those people can say we're sad. Why do we have to alter ourselves? What's plastic surgery? What's Botox?

A (72:29)

You know, Gary's gonna be like this in 10 years.

B (72:32)

Maybe I'm probably not. But I don't judge people that are. I just judge when they say something sad when they're doing the sad thing. I remember in the 80s when boob job, like I was a kid, but I remember when everybody frowned on someone who had a boob job.

A (72:47)

And now they're everywhere.

B (72:52)

You know what I mean?

A (72:53)

It's true.

B (72:53)

And so, and so like, I don't know. Is lip filler like sad to a woman from 1949? It sure is. They think you're fucking sad.

A (73:03)

Zoom out. Huh.

B (73:05)

So just cause you think a robot's sad, it's just gonna keep doing shit. And I get what people are gonna say in the comments, like yeah, but that's still a human being. I'm like, okay. Like I don't know, like okay.

A (73:17)

I hired an AI specialist who's such so amazing. You walk into my office the first time I meet the guy in person. Cause we were interviewing him on a project basis. Anyway, he's sitting in the front area of my office, he's got a hoodie on, he's got those, what are those things called?

B (73:31)

VR glasses.

A (73:31)

VR glasses. And he's just fucking maestroing in front and I, you know, take it a little video because it's funny. His name's Chadwick, he's brilliant and his entire job is to see where AI can play in our companies. But I started talking to him about this idea and he pushed me really hard on our humans robots. He goes, should they be able to vote. Immediate reaction. Fuck no. They shouldn't be able to vote. He goes, okay, what about a human with a fake leg? What about a human with two robotic legs? What about a human with a neuro transplant in their head? Where does it become a human instead of a robot? And I was like, poof.

B (74:03)

Yeah. And by the way, it might not even be right, meaning it could be the end of the human race. And I'm like, okay, do you think I want that? But my intuition is that my grandkids will be gone by the time that happens. And you don't get to control the future. Like, what is this, audate? This is where the whole politics thing has gotten me crazy. Like. Like, we've gotten to this era where people have the audacity to think the world should be how they see it. I have passionate points of view. We just spent fucking an hour on it. I don't think I'm right and I don't think it should be the way I see it. Like, I just. And most of all, you can't stop it. You know? Technology's undefeated, by the way, as I sign off. Electricity demonized when it came out. Actually, the word demonized when electricity was invented, people did not put it in their home and still chose lanterns and candles because the word on the street was electricity had demons in it. We're scared of new shit.

A (75:11)

Gary V, you're the man. Thank you for being here today.

B (75:14)

Thank you.