← The GaryVee Audio Experience
The GaryVee Audio Experience
If You Missed the TikTok Era DON'T Miss This One | A Conversation With Real Leaders Magazine
00:27:10
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- [00:01]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Before you listen to today's podcast and I know there's background noise, I'm literally sitting on a plane that's about to be taken off. But before you do anything, I want you to go to my Instagram Right now, GaryVee, go on the profile, hit where it says following and add me to your favorites to make sure you don't miss any of my Instagram posts. I've got fire coming this summer. Lots going on, lots of giveaways, lots of exclusives, lots of partnerships and just lots of rants and fire. That's what I want you to do. Please let me know if you did it on Twitter or on text. And now enjoy the podcast.
- [00:42]
Kevin
On today's episode of the podcast, we're sharing a conversation that was recorded for the COVID story of Real Leaders magazine, a global publication focused on spotlighting impact driven CEOs, entrepreneurs and brands using businesses as a force for good. Gary sits down with Kevin and Carla, the president and editor of Realtors magazine. You'll hear them talk about branding, how to build attention in 2025, and why platforms like TikTok Shop and YouTube Shorts are changing everything. If you're a founder, a business owner, or anyone looking to stay ahead of culture and consumer behavior, this one is packed with actionable advice. The conversation begins with a question from Carla. Let's hear what she has to say.
- [01:21]
Carla
You know, one of the things I think that, that I think about when I think of you is, is personal branding and of course, company branding. Today's business climate, I mean, we're told we need to do everything online and through social, but there's so much content, there's so much noise, there's so much going on. So how does even, how does someone even build a personal brand in this climate these days? And what are, you know, some of the important lessons you've learned along the way about personal branding and brand equity?
- [01:49]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Look, I think, you know, I think one of the coolest things about business is it's kind of like sports in that it's very merit based. And so, you know, I hear a lot from a lot of people, like, well, there's so many other people trying to do it, or to your point, noise. And I always remind them, like, you know, okay, like, you know, like, there's really no optionality, right? Like, what are you going to do in that environment if you're crippled by competition, you probably shouldn't be in business in the first place. That's a really important mindset going into this. Number two, I take the other side of the pillow and see the absolute insanity of it in a positive way. Meaning, obviously, especially given that you're in print and, you know, Kev looks like a youngster. You too, Carla. But like, I think both of you remember a world where like, social media wasn't fully dominating every single, you know, wasn't the dominant force. And, you know, just like this moment, even though I've been very fond of this magazine, I had to wait until this moment where I got where you felt it was appropriate. You picked me in this moment. What's amazing about LinkedIn is I can post a video right now with great thoughts and it could get 4 million views if it wins. On the merit of the creative. It's not even the social media that I grew up in. When I invested in Facebook, Twitter and Tumblr, these stock options right here, back in 2007, you had to build a community for a long period of time to get millions of followers so that a lot of people could see something. You say the fact that, I mean, in fact, I would actually argue. It's funny that this got brought up. I'd like to see the both of you spend more time having this incredible publication, make a lot more content for LinkedIn because I think it would grow your business dramatically.
- [03:42]
Carla
Yeah. And I know some, I know Kevin has some follow up questions related to that.
- [03:46]
Gary Vaynerchuk
And I think, if I just may put a bow on it, Carl, I apologize. I think the answer is tough. Of course everyone's going to compete. Comma, do you realize that you're one, even if you've never started a personal brand for the last 15 years, that if your third video or written post on LinkedIn, Instagram, TikTok, because of the way the algorithms work, this is, by the way, this most substantial thing that has happened in communication in a very long time. We are now in the era of not social media, but interest media. An individual piece of content where you have six followers. It's your fourth day, you're a CEO of a business reading this right now, and you've missed the boat. And you envy Gary Vee because he's been doing it for 15 years. I have great news for you. We are on equal playing ground now because if your stuff is good and today I just mailed it in and I just did a mundane kind of C minus for Gary Vee piece of execution. You're. Your video is going to get more views than me. That's a level of merit of thought and creative that has never existed.
- [04:49]
Carla
Yeah, that's a That's an excellent point. Okay, so a little bit about the impact space, and then we can move on from that. You've said that, you know, how you make money is more important than how much you make. You still feel that way. Is that a nod to the impact business sector and just kind of, what are your thoughts about the impact business space? What's going well for that space? What's maybe not going so well?
- [05:12]
Gary Vaynerchuk
I think a lot of things there. So, yes, I still believe in that. And I believe in that predominantly based on whether you're Tom Shoes or, you know, or, you know, brands like that that pioneered some of this stuff, whether you're donating a percentage of your, you know, you know, Patagonia, or whether, you know or whether you're on the complete other side and you don't care about anybody but yourself and you built a business. I think the reason it matters is, is when you're 90 and more importantly, what really happens in your life between 40 and 90, I just don't think the dollars in your bank account actually drive a level of happiness that unfortunately, I think a lot of people are confused by. And so I think it matters because I just think you'll have a happier life as a human being if you actually believe in what I'm saying, because you'll have more joy in your life, both in your family, friendships and just how you feel about yourself as you round up your journey. And then, you know, I think in the impact space, I think, you know, when I think back at 2005, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, when this stuff started, really kind of like the early seeds of the movement got going, I think it was remarkable. When I think about 2015, I felt like every startup I looked at would walk in and be like, gary, you're going to love my startup. We sell umbrellas, but every time we sell an umbrella, we give an umbrella to somebody in a rainforest. And then I would look under and I'm like, yeah, but you're selling an umbrella for twice the price. You're really not being altruistic. You're just using good as a facade for your selfishness. Now in 2024, I think we're in actually a beautiful place. I think we're in this place where humans are thoughtful about this and, comma, we've gotten a little bit of the mockery and snake oil salesmen of using it as a weapon out of the system. And we're almost kind of in this mature space where I like that it is a subconscious or conscious thought of every entrepreneur when they start a company that this is an option. And I think that's a remarkable place for us to be.
- [07:20]
Carla
What do you look for? You talked about some of the brands that you were an angel investor in. Facebook, Twitter, Uber, Snapchat, Venmo. What are some of the components that you look for today in a business that you're going to put your money in or resources into?
- [07:34]
Gary Vaynerchuk
You know, I, I love to talk about publicly about my big wins. There are many more losses that I don't talk about. And the beauty of being 49 now instead of, let's say, early 30s, is the last 15 years of investing. 20 years of investing has taught me that I'm looking for the jockey and the horse. So in early parts of my career, in the earliest parts, I would only invest if I thought the kid, the guy or the gal could do it. So it was pure jockey. Then I got high on my own supply because I was so on fire that I lost my way a little bit and became only about the horse. If I liked the idea, I could imagine myself helping it to get big. And so I almost overlooked the jockey. I am now firmly in a place where I have to adore the idea and the intuition I have that this human being in front of me is capable of seeing it through. Rachel Tippogrant, you know, at Mic Mac, she's on the sixth version of Mic Mac and it's because she's capable of seeing it through. So I look for that now. And because I do such early stage investing, I don't have the company's results to rely on that. The person can do that. I have to go on my intuition on can they do that. But I'm looking for what I call the jockey and the horse.
- [09:01]
Carla
That's a great analogy. All right, I'm going to ask one more question and then I'm going to punt over to Kevin. You're considered one of the leading global minds on what's next, what's coming up in culture in the digital world. And I've seen you recently talking about live shopping and how will revolutionize small business. And I just wondered if you had some thoughts you can share with us about that and how it would impact founders and companies that are reading real leaders.
- [09:26]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Literally any this is the quote. You can put it in a box in dark black. Literally. Anyone reading this article, if you sell something, you must stop reading this article and immediately go spend 25 hours researching the current state of live social shopping. Tick tock, shop. Obviously, notwithstanding what happens here In a US banner not obviously this is global so there'll still be a lot of places. A startup called Whatnot that is a leader and but I we've already seen Walmart, Amazon, ebay have their own live platforms. It's inconceivable to me that Facebook, Twitter and YouTube do not have aggressive announcements. M and A, I don't know what they're up to, I have no inside information. But it's inconceivable to me that we won't see things from Instagram, Facebook, Twitter X and YouTube YouTube shorts this year. It again. If you're, if you're a businessman or woman that has lived in, executed or pay attention to China, you're completely bored by what I'm saying because this has been a decade of reality in China, but it's finally hit the western world. It's significant. I think it could be incredibly detrimental to consumer package good apparel or retailers if they don't, if they dismiss it the way many dismissed Amazon and social media. I think this is big girl, big boy stuff. I think QVC and home shopping networks still do crazy amounts of revenue and like nobody even knows. Half of under 40 doesn't even know it exists. And anybody over 40 is flabbergasted when they look under the hood. There is something inherently human that humans love to buy stuff when it's in a live environment. It's why live auctions do well, it's why QVC does well. And social media, when you take the conglomerate of the seven platforms that lead the sheer attention, the hours spent by human beings in social media is profound and misunderstood in its dominance. And now you're layering in shopping. This is a very big deal. I would argue in a 15 year window if Amazon stumbled and misplayed it, this could be the thing that knocks them off their perch.
- [11:48]
Carla
Stunning. Stunning. Okay, fabulous. Kevin.
- [11:53]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Even if you're a B2B company, listening reading this right now and being like, Well I sell SaaS, that doesn't mean anything to me. I implore you to figure out how to go do a collaboration with a fashion brand and make a cool hoodie for your B2B company and then sell it on live shopping just for the awareness and brand building, not the revenue, which I know would seem far fetched to a B2B person reading this, but I'm not saying it to be wrong or for my health there. It's a big medium.
- [12:22]
Unknown
Well, we're very aware of social media's dominance. It's completely disrupted our industry. Believe it or not.
- [12:29]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Not only do I that I have unlimited receipts on the Internet in 2009, 1011 begging traditional media companies to understand how big big this is. It's kind of similar to what I'm doing right now with live shopping to retailers and package good companies.
- [12:45]
Unknown
That was going to be. One of my questions though is like, how does an antiquated media platform like a magazine American Pastime stay relevant in today's day and age?
- [12:55]
Gary Vaynerchuk
By conforming to the new distribution model as an awareness and execution equity of of what it does. Meaning if you fall in love in with your form factor instead of your brand, you become vulnerable. Real leaders. The Wall Street Journal, Sports Illustrated is a great example. Sports Illustrated could have been house of highlights in overtime and barstool. It could have been. But it became obsessed with its medium, not its brand. And so how any antiquated anything can do. Let's talk about this because I'm bouncing back to the prior subject matter. If you're a clothing store on Main street in an. My dad's wine store in New Jersey is in an affluent area, so Milburn, New Jersey. Nice, great town, good money, upper middle class to wealthy. There's plenty of small stores on Main street in Milburn that are just dying. Of course we know online shopping, right? However, if one of those store owners this morning woke up and decided to turn their store, a piece of it into the studio that did live shopping all day long, they would explode over time if they were good. Blah, blah, blah. So to answer your question, Kev, it's. It's a. It's not becoming delusional or ideological or on your medium. It's about becoming obsessed with your brand and finding ways to convert it into new attention. Parallels.
- [14:28]
Unknown
Yeah, and I appreciate you sharing that. Yeah, that was one of the major takeaways I got in Day trading Attention, which by the way, great book. And I listened to an audiobook by the way. I don't know why it's free on Spotify. You should definitely charge for it. So. So one of the things I'd love just to get for our audience real quick, could you just explain to the layman what is day trading attention and what do you mean by under overvalued platform?
- [14:51]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Hey everybody. Actually, if you're a really hardcore listener, you know I never do this. I'm sorry to be jumping in the middle of the podcast, but the truth is I'm like shitting the bed on this. Everybody else is getting people to review on Spotify and Apple and like the Vaynernation does none of that. Cause I've never asked. So if this podcast has ever meant anything to you, please go to Spotify or Apple right now and leave a review. By the way, even if you give me a one star review cause you think it's shit, I respect it, but just leave a review. An actual review, 4 or 5 stars than the actual details of why. Yeah, that would mean something for me. So thanks. Now back to the podcast. So day trading Attention has cap. You know, it was a real big moment for me when I came up with the term. One of those kind of eureka moments. It captures everything I've been trying to say for 15 years and. But you know, again, you've got to kind of understand it. So attention, I believe, is the ultimate asset in the world. Nothing can happen unless someone's listening to it. You can't get, you can't become president of the United States if you're talking in a cave by yourself and thinking there are people there, right? As a parent, you can't have your child become the human you want them to become if you don't talk to them. And they, you know, every single thing on Earth is based on attention. What people give attention to and then the quality of the content, the written word, the audio, the video is the variable if it lands or not. But without the attention, it's the old, you know, that whole, does the tree fall in the forest? That even happen? So. So attention is my obsession. I grew up building my dad's business and then my personal brand. First on direct mail, print, magazine ads, newspaper ads, radio and local television. Then I did it on Google, AdWords and email marketing. Then I did it on YouTube, then I did it on social media. And I promise you, and I think this will land with both of you, based on the history of my career, I will be at the forefront of when VR matters and I promise you when, if VR has three hours a day the way a phone does, you'll go into the VR device and you will be like, there he is. Because I'll be. Because I don't have any romance. And this is actually very important for every real leader to hear. I am not romantic about how I got here or how I currently make my money. Because. And if I do, I can get caught. Back to antiquated. I have to always understand where it's going. And I've got to get that timing right. Day trading is, is a term on Wall street, right. That was different than the way people used to invest in stocks. Our grandparents, our parents, they would buy a stock and they would go to sleep or a mutual fund and they would see you later. I'll look at it in a couple years. Then when the Internet came along, we have these kids buying stocks and selling them every second they trade it. I believe that marketing. Let's talk about your magazine, right? If I'm buying an ad in there, I've got to make it, I buy it from you. Like there's a long period of time before it shows up in an issue which is great and important. But the way social works now and the sheer attention, the speed in which you have to make content and be on top of this is more like day trading than buying mutual funds. And so it captured the essence of what I want. I see the Nike book behind you, right? From Nike to real leaders to Gary Vee, the personal brand to a store on Madison Avenue to a law firm. The more they understand if you are doing marketing, if you are trying to get attention, if you want to succeed and build anything, a personal brand or a business, the more you understand it's day trading attention now, the better you will succeed. And then to the point of the book, boy oh boy, once you understand that, you start to realize how much science and art and strategy and complexity is to be good at it. Yeah, I would argue it'd be like me telling everybody actually here's a good comp that actually worked out. If I told every kid that was an athletic freak 20 years ago when they were 6, 15 years ago, hey, you should all become basketball players, not football players. Because I see the future and basketball is going to grow and because there's only 15 players on the team and not 53. You make a lot more money if you're a good basketball player than a football player. That would have been the right strategy. That wasn't obvious 20 years ago. And so once what I'm trying to teach people but, but still being great is hard and that's what this is. I'm telling you that basketball is coming. But the reason I wrote the book was I'm going to show you how to train and actually do it well.
- [19:30]
Unknown
Got it. I'm there. Thanks for sharing that with, with our community. Again, they're all kind of impact oriented, growth minded CEOs and they really appreciate learning from real experience. And I think that's one things I love about this article. You're a practitioner, you know that one of the questions I actually had, I'd love for you to share from your experiences because you know I, I read Crushing it. That's what got me into this space. I'm in a family business. It helped bring it from print to digital. Trust me, brother, I've been on LinkedIn every single day doing podcasts like, love your stuff, right? My question for you though, is I just read about via Entrepreneur magazine, your buy $50,000 accelerated program. What worked for you? What channel worked for you? Because I found out about that through an email on entrepreneur.com what channels worked for you to attract that kind of client.
- [20:18]
Gary Vaynerchuk
That the reason you've only heard about that now is I also, you know, it's funny, you're going to actually appreciate this. I even at this point in my career, not only does my marketing not overvalue yesterday, my operations doesn't. I would argue the most hidden thing about me because of the way I communicate publicly is that I would argue that humility is one of the foundational personality traits I have that have made me successful in business. The reason what Vibe was, was we only went to people that have interacted or reached out to VaynerMedia and Vayner X over the last 15 years to get the original two classes of that product because I want it. Because those were people that already got a lot of value from us. And in case it wasn't a good product, I knew that I had hedged the mitigated risk already because they were already so happy with us and we've done so much for them that I didn't want that to happen and we would have done right by them, but it wouldn't have been like if I yelled from the top of the mountains. And then people have never interacted with me. So because I knew it was a new program, I wanted to. This was almost call it our beta, our alpha of vive in this environment because I wanted to make sure it was worth it. Because I don't take lightly a human being writing a check of that size. You have to really deliver a lot for that to be valuable. And so that original cohort of consumers were already people we've interacted with or done other things for. And that's why you see that.
- [21:54]
Unknown
Got it. Okay. So people kind of in the community already, they've experienced a taste, a sample and enjoyed the.
- [22:00]
Gary Vaynerchuk
I guess the value truly have directly interacted with Vayner X, meaning VaynerMedia or the SASHA Group or Gallery Media Group. Like one of the companies with Vayner speakers, like, have actually, actually, you know, interacted. Not even like, not following, like truly transactionally or operationally have interacted with the organization.
- [22:21]
Unknown
Love it, love it. Okay, well I love, I love your concept in the book when it came to just the ask me anything at the end. Like I thought the case studies at the end were honestly the best part. If you don't mind, I actually pulled our community. I have a few questions we're lucky to answer for them. We're just going to rapid fire here. First is if I'm a direct to consumer conscious or certified B corp company, where should I be playing in 2025?
- [22:44]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Where should I be what playing in 2025?
- [22:47]
Unknown
Online?
- [22:48]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Yeah, definitely, Definitely. I mean required, not even optional. Facebook and Instagram, TikTok and YouTube shorts. That is like you can't even like I couldn't comprehend if you're trying to sell something direct to consumer not being on those channels. The next tier would be Twitter X LinkedIn, Snapchat Spotlight, which is, which is the tick tock Instagram part of Snapchat. But the first four are just utterly required to have any prayer of success.
- [23:20]
Unknown
Okay, that's huge and I appreciate you sharing those new platforms. Remember when you had musically in there, it was just like no way this is gonna happen. But it did. Next question. If a small B2, if I'm a small B2B service provider or law firm looking to target conscious business owners, what kind of strategy do you think would cater to them best?
- [23:39]
Gary Vaynerchuk
So this is like a going to blow people's minds. The AI algorithms that run the for you pages and the feeds of these social networks are getting better and better by the hour to understand the content and then put that content in front of the people that they're trying to reach. So can you imagine, can you imagine we're now going to be in a place in a year or two? It's already happening. But I'll go with a year or two where this individual, if they're saying words that are, you know, conscious for good, all literally the algo is picking that up and then the feed will send it to people who've shown a propensity of being interested in that subject matter. So my answer would be very heavy YouTube shorts and LinkedIn for that exact person. LinkedIn because it just finds the B2B environment YouTube shorts because YouTube is the second biggest search engine in the world. And so when you put a social piece in there, a YouTube short, you will show up for the people that are looking for that kind of content and that would be stronger than you doing it on Facebook and Instagram right now.
- [24:47]
Unknown
Got it. A common question you Always get that I think is really relevant that we want to share in the magazine is if you are a founder growing a business on social media, should you grow it on your personal platform, on your profile or on the company?
- [25:00]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Great question. The answer is both. You know, as you know by living by me talking about how I actually do it, vaynermedia and wine library and veefriends and everything I have have their own pages and then I have my pages and you know humans will tend to over index brands and companies. It's just the nature of the medium. But. But by doing both you're able to take the human audience and push them to your business and you can work with them back and forth. Collab posts are thing and so I genuinely believe it's both. But if somebody's crippled by that, they think that's so hard or I can't. The reality is either will work.
- [25:42]
Unknown
Okay, last question here. Brand guidelines you talk a lot about in the book. Tell me a little bit more about should a company have brand guidelines or do they get in the way of ultimate creative creativity?
- [25:57]
Gary Vaynerchuk
You know, I think it's kind of, I would say 2080. So should brands have guidelines? Sure. Look, I think it's good to know what you're up to for new employee but I think to your point again for the, for the leaders that are reading this, this is a marketing terminology issue more so than a business and operation one. But in marketing land, how to build a brand. Brand guidelines. A lot of this stuff is hurting people in the new world. It was good for television, it's not good for social media. I would rather brands focus on being relevant to as many different consumer segmentations as possible versus coming up with a tagline or color scheme that becomes restrictive of creativity in this new world.
- [26:43]
Unknown
Hey brother, thanks for keeping it real and taking the time to be with us today.
- [26:47]
Carla
We appreciate it very much.
- [26:49]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Continued success. Talk soon. Bye bye.
- [26:51]
Carla
Thanks bye.
- [26:52]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Hey everybody. I put out a new deck. I know the pyramid deck changed everyone's life. Go to GaryVee.com attention. A free. How many pages is it, sid? A free 47 page deck that is free that will change your business, your life, your brand, your world. Go check it out.