The 42 Minute Playbook on Live Shopping

Summary

The GaryVee Audio Experience Episode: The 42 Minute Playbook on Live Shopping Date: May 6, 2026 Host: Gary Vaynerchuk | Guest: Joe Julian (Super Ordinary CEO)

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the rapidly evolving world of live shopping, bridging lessons from both U.S. and Chinese markets. Gary Vaynerchuk and Super Ordinary CEO Joe Julian dissect the impact and future of live/social commerce, explaining how brands, creators, and consumers are reshaping retail through innovation, entertainment, and community. With real-world stories, passionate insights, and practical advice, they offer listeners a compelling playbook on harnessing live shopping in today’s attention economy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Power of Social and Communal Commerce

• Communal Shopping Experience ([00:00], [09:52])
  • Gary notes the profound nature of communal commerce, contrasting traditional QVC with social platforms like TikTok, where “everyone’s interacting with everyone,” leading to friendships and a sense of community.
  • "When I'm answering someone's customer service question live, well, that also is affecting all the other people that are watching." (Gary, [00:16])
• The Community-Driven Model: Returns, feedback, and ongoing participation lead to repeat engagement and sales.

2. Corporate Inertia and the Attention Shift

• Misunderstandings in Corporate America ([02:41], [03:15])
  • Gary criticizes large companies for clinging to outdated marketing habits, due to internal incentives and fear of change.
  • “We have corporate inertia eating up marketing and misalignment. … Smart people making bad decisions because they have mortgages to pay and they don't want to get fired.” (Gary, [03:18])
• The Currency of Attention
  • Joe and Gary stress that attention is the most scarce and valuable asset for brands. Failure to adapt to the new platforms (live/social commerce) means being left behind. ([06:41])
  • "It's all about attention. Everything else is distribution. And if you don't get those two things right, you're left in the dust.” (Joe, [06:42])

3. Lessons from the Chinese Market

• China as a Precursor ([07:45], [11:03])
  • Joe recounts starting in China as TikTok’s live commerce exploded, referencing massive numbers: "GMB today $700 billion." (Joe, [07:56])
  • “In China, people are buying seafood and they're pointing at the fish and they'll be at your house within two days.” (Joe, [22:38])
• Infrastructure for Creators
  • Joe’s origin story for Super Ordinary: “The real monopoly is if we can build infrastructure around the 3,4 million creators … and help them distribute, create content and sell more products and make it more efficient...” (Joe, [15:49])

4. The Current State and Explosive Potential of Live Commerce in the U.S.

• U.S. Market is in Its Infancy ([18:45]-[22:25])
  • Gary says the live shopping boom is already underway in the U.S. in verticals like collectibles but is still “day zero.”
  • “There is 0.0 doubt in my mind that we will look fondly back at these videos in nine years and be like, we told them.” (Gary, [18:45])
• Scalability and Range
  • Sales aren’t limited to small products; everything from homes to services will be sold live, just as in China. ([22:25]-[22:57])

5. Commerce Meets Entertainment (Commerce-tainment)

• Engagement and Conversion ([25:29])
  • Live shopping is a more entertaining and frictionless experience: “Live shopping is a more entertaining, more fruitful, more enjoyable shopping experience...You swipe. And they put it in front of you.” (Gary, [25:29])
• AI and the Future ([25:56])
  • Differentiating emotional vs. automatic purchases: “What I care about, it will be live shopping and AI agents.” (Gary, [25:57])
  • Live commerce becomes a breakthrough tool for discovery and building emotional connections with emerging brands.

6. Brand, Authenticity & The Role of Creators

• The Evolving Value of Brand ([31:16]-[34:54])
  • Gary argues that brand is still everything, but boardroom ideologies are outdated; brands are now multifaceted in the eyes of millions of consumers.
  • “Brand means something different to everyone. … I like living in real life and the way that marketers uphold brand is much more Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy than they'd like to admit…” (Gary, [33:03])
• Creators as the New Brands
  • Gary predicts the rise of “individual empire” billion-dollar personal brands through live shopping, social, and AI. ([14:43])
  • "The human being is going to be the next billion dollar empires..." (Gary, [14:43])

7. Opportunity & Advice for Creators and Affiliates

• Accessible Income Streams for All ([36:17]-[37:58])
  • Gary believes most people underestimate the long tail: “The amount of people ... make a million dollars a year just being on camera all day selling. ... But that is clearly not everyone. ... I get excited about the person that's gonna actually make $9,000 in a year, occasionally being on live, selling … that 9,000 means that their family's gonna go on a nicer vacation that year.” (Gary, [36:17])
• Advice for Beginners ([39:15]-[40:15])
  • Gary: “This is a huge opportunity for you. Please try. ... Before you say no, say maybe and put in the work for 10 to 15 hours to educate yourself and then get on, then try.” ([39:15])
  • The feedback loop is immediate; 20 hours of commitment could show real results.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "We have corporate inertia eating up marketing and misalignment. … Smart people making bad decisions because they have mortgages to pay and they don't want to get fired."
  — Gary Vaynerchuk, [03:18]

• "Attention leads everything. You know, if you don't have attention, ... you're left in the dust."
  — Joe Julian, [06:42]

• "There is 0.0 doubt in my mind that we will look fondly back at these videos in nine years and be like, we told them."
  — Gary Vaynerchuk, [18:45]

• "Live shopping is a more entertaining, more fruitful, more enjoyable shopping experience and is easier. You swipe."
  — Gary Vaynerchuk, [25:29]

• "I believe in brand over everything. I believe the faux pas is the interpretation of it in boardrooms. ... What brand means in Fortune 500 land is let me pick one lane and push it down on people. ... I'm a living version of it."
  — Gary Vaynerchuk, [34:54]

• "The amount of people ... make a million dollars a year just being on camera all day selling. ... I get excited about the person that's gonna actually make $9,000 in a year...that 9,000 means that their family's gonna go on a nicer vacation that year."
  — Gary Vaynerchuk, [36:17]

• "Please don't be a cynic ... Before you say no, say maybe and put in the work for 10 to 15 hours to educate yourself and then get on, then try. ... I believe in those 20 hours, you'll taste what we're talking about, enough to decide if this is right for you or not."
  — Gary Vaynerchuk, [39:15]-[40:15]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00-01:16 – The unique community of live shopping vs. traditional retail
• 02:41-03:57 – Corporate inertia and why brands fear change
• 06:41-07:21 – The primacy of attention in marketing
• 07:45-08:16 – Lessons from China's $700B live commerce boom
• 09:52-11:03 – How social selling fosters community and engagement
• 12:50-15:28 – Joe Julian’s origin story in China and building Super Ordinary
• 18:45-22:25 – Why U.S. brands are still missing the live commerce wave
• 25:29-27:18 – Live shopping vs. static e-commerce and AI’s expanding role
• 31:16-34:54 – Rethinking what “brand” means in the attention economy
• 36:17-37:58 – The democratization of earning through live shopping
• 39:15-40:15 – Gary’s actionable advice to aspiring creators

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Tone and Style

The conversation is energetic, candid, and passionate, blending practical advice with storytelling. Gary brings his trademark directness and vision, while Joe adds global perspective and operational insights. Both are deeply optimistic about the opportunity in live commerce for brands and individuals alike.

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Key Takeaways

• Live shopping is evolving into a dominant retail force by combining entertainment, community, and effortless purchasing.
• Brands must prioritize attention and adaptability. Waiting for “proof” is a costly mistake in the present era.
• The Chinese market’s lead offers a roadmap — infrastructure for creators and efficient platforms drive astronomical growth.
• Creators and affiliates have unprecedented earning potential, from side-gig income to building full-time empires.
• Brand is more human, fluid, and complex than boardrooms believe; its future belongs to those who connect authentically at scale.
• Now is the time for individuals and brands to experiment, learn rapidly, and invest time in understanding and leveraging live commerce.

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For more details and deep dives into these insights, refer to the full episode.

Transcript

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

One of the great things about social selling is when you watch QVC, somebody selling to you. When you buy on TikTok or whatnot or some other platform, there's a community watching together and you're entertaining each other.

[Joe Julian]

Yeah.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

That level of communal commerce.

[Joe Julian]

That's right.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Is profound. And when I'm live. Cause I'm a host as well, when I'm answering someone's customer service question live, well, that also is affecting all the other people that are watching. And then they. I mean, people become friends in these rooms. People that go to a consistent show and are both watching me, they become friends with each other. And I mean, that is a beautiful. I mean, even in real life, a retail store, which I think will continue to have value because the whole analog explosion when digital continues to go extreme with AI is real. But most people aren't becoming wildly friendly with the other people in the shoe store. You might say, nice shoes. You might get into combo. People have met that way, people have gotten married that way. I get it. But it's not common. Whereas on a live shopping show, everyone's interacting with everyone. This is the GaryVee audio experience.

[Joe Julian]

Gary, amazing to have you on the podcast together. Happy it's been a while. And, you know, huge fan. And I think both of our universes go in parallel all the time. And I think today's a really special day for us. One, getting you here.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

As an investor into Super Ordinary, I'm very humbled. I brag a lot about my good wins. I don't talk about my losses as much publicly. So I'm being very selfish here. I think I get to put this in the notch of another win, hopefully in the next decade to come. So thank you for having me. And, you know, obviously you all have been at Super Ordinary, executing on one of the pillars that I think is most important in contemporary marketing and business. And so it's a pleasure to be on board.

[Joe Julian]

No, it's great, Gary. I think there's very few people out there in the world today that bang on the table as much as you do about live commerce and what's going on. And I think coming from the other side on the west coast and you're on the east coast and hearing, you know, people talk continuously about it. But I still think people are misunderstood about live commerce.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yes.

[Joe Julian]

I still think that social commerce confuses people.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yes, I agree.

[Joe Julian]

E commerce and social commerce is one of the big confusions. So I automatically revert to TikTok. And I think that's sometimes what we should lean into about what we about how to explain what social commerce is. Why do you think TikTok and live commerce is so misunderstood by brands today?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Because Fortune 500 companies or Fortune 5000 companies are run by a lot of corporate animals that have no idea what they're doing. Thanks for having me on the show. I mean, you know I say that with incredible love because many of them are. This is real. Some of my best friends in the world. Now let me be more real. A lot of smart people are in the biggest companies in the world and are unable to move their money around to do the things they know are happening because. Because the scoring system within the corporate inertia does not allow them to do it.

[Joe Julian]

What do you mean by that?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I'll explain. If a company like Coca Cola not a client so I'll use them if they have an internal mechanism to score the value of television commercials and your bonus is tied up into that you will spend on television even though you're Sally and you're smart and you know that is the stupidest thing to do in 2026 if you're trying to reach. Stick with me here, Gen Z. So what we have is we have corporate inertia eating up marketing and misalignment. And the misalignment is extraordinary. And you have smart people making bad decisions because they have mortgages to pay and they don't want to get fired.

[Joe Julian]

That's right.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

And then you have other people who just don't know. I do believe I'm giving too much flowers to a lot of marketers. I think a lot of marketers don't actually know how profound. Even with an exit like yesterday to Unilever, they'll still be like what's going on? Or how did that happen?

[Joe Julian]

Let's do a gummy ourselves.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah. Like there's an incredible misunderstanding of the sheer amount of attention that is being allocated by the human race to the social networks. And then when you have TikTok that is actually using its UI and UX to help us billions of use users discover live shopping channels in real time through its fyp. You're talking about one of the great opportunities of all time where we didn't even get into the affiliates that make the content. Obviously Meta's now trying to catch up. You're either in the traffic. When we started talking from afar I saw what was going on but it didn't take me long. I'm like oh, he knows. He's not a financier. Who's the CEO? He knows enough of what's happening in the traffic that I feel comfortable taking the next meeting because the reason Vayner dominated is cause I am a practitioner of the craft as the CEO. And so, you know, look, I think there's a lot of marketers that still don't understand that making content through affiliates in a TikTok environment and standing up the production of a live show that sells is mission critical to a consumer brand in 2026. Many of them still think it's a nice to have. We'll get to it when it matters. It's been mattering. It really matters. And just like social media and just like mobile and just like everything that has ever come along that's mattered, big companies will be three to five years away and they will overspend on Matt to close the gap.

[Joe Julian]

Well, I think what you said a lot there that I think is really interesting to pull apart because I've never seen a moment in time where corporate America, especially brands today who are used to be selling into retailers at 50% off or 60% off. Instagram has always been like this discovery system for them where you go to a creator with the most followers and now it's not working. And the LTV to CAC ratios are completely.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

And by the way, to jump in, I'm sorry, you were progressive. If you went to an influencer. There's still people that are barely spending on influencers and Instagram, but keep going.

[Joe Julian]

Well, I think the thing that's really. And the word attention and you've written a book about this is really, you know, attention leads everything. You know, if you don't have attention, if they're not watching your podcast, they're not watching Netflix, they're not watching tv.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

That's right.

[Joe Julian]

It's limited and it's so limited. And I think if you can all that down to anyone who's trying to sell a product or service and saying it's all about attention. Everything else is distribution. And if you don't get those two things right, you're left in the dust. I had a brand call me the other day. He put a brand in Target and he's saying, I can't move this product off the shelf anymore. Before it was super easy. I just need to put it there and the traffic would convert. But now they don't know what to do and it's almost a little too late because they don't want to spend the money on the platforms where the consumer is spending their time. And that's why I think what you're saying is just really important.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

It's very deep rooted. Again, this is why I'm. Even before I decided to invest in your incredible company, I wanted your company to do well. Is I need any. I. It's funny how I just said I need. It's funny what my brain just did. I so wish my clients, and not even my clients, the people in the industries that I play in to figure this out because I do not think they understand how highs the stakes are.

[Joe Julian]

Yeah, exactly. Because I started the business in China in 2018 when Tick Tock first started and TikTok was doing less than a billion of revenue in China.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

GMB.

[Joe Julian]

GMB today $700 billion. I mean, just take a step back.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I know, bro.

[Joe Julian]

And that to me is a thing that even when I say it today to people, they're like, yeah, that's a big number. No, that's bigger than Meta. It's almost like crazy that people don't understand that we're at the bleeding edge of what's about to happen in the

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

us you know how I've convinced a lot of people and I don't convince, let me phrase, you know how people have been like, huh? I asked them to go look at how much revenue QVC does.

[Joe Julian]

Exactly.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

You know, like if you talk to anyone on the street, they're not even sure QVC is still around, let alone, you know, and that's actually being disrespectful qvc. But I don't think people understand how big that platform is. And think of the friction you have to go on television. I know that's already friction. You have to find it and then you have to call in, I guess. I'm sure they have an app, but like.

[Joe Julian]

And do they have a call center that picks up?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yes, but there's so much friction compared to grabbing your phone and being in the normal environment you're in. And this is what I say the brilliance of QVC is the format works, humans buy from humans and the entertainment works. That's right. And humans buy from humans. Would you rather like. This is a very basic question. Do you think it's more likely that you will buy something from a human that is live and explaining it on video or a picture that you get in your feed? Explain that to me.

[Joe Julian]

I know exactly when you know. The other thing is, the other day we saw this retailer that went online on TikTok and the first thing they did was just put up a PDP page of a product and I just looked at them and I was like, these guys do billions of dollars a year in revenue. And that's the limitation. No one is going to purchase. But then you flip three down on your FYP page and you see someone selling a fragrance and it's entertaining because someone's talking to you and you can comment to them, they can talk back to you. And they're doing probably 2 million a month.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Well, it's even deeper than that. One of the great things about social selling is when you watch QVC, somebody selling to you. When you buy on TikTok or whatnot or some other platform, there's a community watching together and you're entertaining each other. That level of communal commerce is profound. And when I'm live, cause I'm a host as well, when I'm answering someone's customer service question live. Well, that also is affecting all the other people that are watching. And then they. I mean, people become friends in these rooms. People that go to a consistent show and are both watching me, they become friends with each other. And I mean, that is a beautiful. I mean, even in real life, a retail store, which I think will continue to have value, cause the whole analog explosion when digital continues to go extreme with AI is real. But. But it is unlike, you know, it happens once at a blue moon. But most people aren't becoming wildly friendly with the other people. In the shoe store. You might say, nice shoes. You might get into a combo. People have met that way, people have gotten married that way. I get it. But it's not common. Whereas on a live shopping show, everyone's interacting with everyone.

[Joe Julian]

It's true. And there's an incentive for them to come back 100%. Because the community factor of what you're getting from being in these live channels is so exciting. I remember on the subway in Shanghai on the way home from the office, and you see everyone, everyone's talking and everyone's purchasing. And people used to, you know, kind of poo poo the whole live shopping business in the US because they said, you know, it would never work. And my, my thought was it was always because platforms weren't here, period. And that's it.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

By the way, my, maybe my favorite entrepreneur of the last 25 years. It's because Mark Zuckerberg does not have retail DNA. It's because Jeff Bezos did not have social DNA in America. The leaders did not combine the two.

[Joe Julian]

That's true. That's so true.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

It was not super complicated, by the way. If I was good enough to be one of those people, it would have existed in America. The reason I'm good at it. The reason I'm the Pied Piper is I am both social and retail. Right. My whole career is actually that. I built an e commerce business in the 90s and I've been a social like. So we didn't have the serendipity of the right founders.

[Joe Julian]

Yeah.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I mean, have you thought about that? It's interesting, right?

[Joe Julian]

What I really love about what you just said is that.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Hey everybody, hope you're enjoying the podcast right now. Make sure you follow the podcast. That's why I'm interrupting. Let's keep going on this show, but follow the podcast. It'll make my mom super happy.

[Joe Julian]

If you can pull from the online to the offline model and have people come and convert and also buy the same products in the store as well.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Oh, because it's true.

[Joe Julian]

Because the retail experience also has got boring too.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yes, it's very. I actually apologize, I don't want to interrupt you, but what I just said actually got me to my curious question that I want you to pontificate on. Why did you start this company? What is the origin of super ordinary? Like give me the 41 1.

[Joe Julian]

So I moved to Shanghai one year and I was just walking down the street and I saw everyone on their

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

phone and what were you doing there?

[Joe Julian]

So I was just curious. I was living in Hong Kong at the time.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yes.

[Joe Julian]

And I was, you know, very curious about what was going on in China because there's no websites there.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah.

[Joe Julian]

And I went to Shanghai and everyone on the. There was a bridge and everyone on the bridge was holding up, talking into a phone and holding products. And this was the day when 2018 when TikTok first went live. And I was just so curious and I just went online when I got back to the hotel and like this is crazy that this is how live shopping is really taking place. And people did that because, you know, the community is very insular there. They don't go and congregate. They don't. And they found solace about other people online. And I think that nuance about human behavior in a country that's with over a billion people and this is how they found each other. So I went back and I started saying what? The only way for me to learn about social commerce and about TikTok is to start selling products online, which is very much like what you did too. So I started bringing beauty products from the US from New York, flew them to Hong Kong and did a cross border trade where I was selling products into China. Within two years, we Built one of the largest cross border beauty brands called Pharmacy. We're doing tens of hundreds of dollars and all of a sudden, you know, one day we met this big influencer called Austin Lee. And Austin Lee, who anyone can Google and read about him. And he does billions and billions of dollars of sales. One person, he has a team of 80 people that surround him and I've never ever seen anything like this in my life. And to me we're still living in the dark ages here in the US and we can bang the table as many times as we want and people, people won't listen. It's like deaf ears. But I do believe in five years time we are going to have multiple

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Austin leaves in the US I'm writing a book actively right now called your individual empire. It is going to break down many things besides live shopping, but that the human being is going to be the next billion dollar empires and live shopping, blockchain, AI social. It's very obvious. I could not agree with you more.

[Joe Julian]

Yeah. And your own IP that you have yourself that no one can take away from you, you've got no reason, you don't have to go wide, you can be very.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

It's the actual only moat in this AI world.

[Joe Julian]

Anything that they can't take away from

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

you as long as your IP law and copyright is upheld in the country you navigate in. We'll see how that all plays out over time. But that's exactly right. So, okay, so that, so you met him, what happens?

[Joe Julian]

So anyway, so very quickly we started bringing more and more brands into the Chinese market. And this was just before COVID happened.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

That's right.

[Joe Julian]

And we hit, you know, several hundred million of revenue and gmb.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Julian]

And then we got shut down because you know, the whole market, unlike the US when consumer confidence gets stamped upon, everything goes to zero.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Pretty much, yes.

[Joe Julian]

So we pivoted the business and brought it to the US armed with all this information about what is going to happen. And the one thing that stood with me is that we have to build infrastructure and infrastructure. What I mean by that is creator infrastructure. So when people think about infrastructure, they usually think about roads, cement, logistics, payments. But what I think is the real mode or the real monopoly is if we can build infrastructure around the 3,4 million creators that we service every day on TikTok and help them distribute, create content and sell more products and make it more efficient, brands will have to come and find people like us to help them sell products.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yes.

[Joe Julian]

So the opportunity, what we see right now is, you know, we have tons of creators that we work with and we had to automate all of that service to these creators and affiliates. And it's just been just beginning. And I. We're so, so bullish about what's about to happen in the US but really as super ordinary, I really want to bring creators into our universe. And what I've been doing by that is allowing them to become shareholders of the company as well, which I really am bullish about because I think if we have a product, we send it to them and they own it, they're going to be more motivated to help us work and sell it.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I mean, you know, it's, you know, it's fun. We're both 50 now and, you know, I always had a very good understanding of history. I was an atrocious student, but I actually got Bs in history instead of the normal Ds and Fs that I got in high school. And I never understood why actually until I got into my late 30s when I started to understand myself more as an entrepreneur that I was very conditioned. Natural DNA, luck of the draw to be very good at pattern recognition. And I used history all the time to navigate and you know, it's. And that's when I was a kid, it was intuitive and I would use history that I did not live to make decisions. Now at 50, I lived in a world where I, me as a child, 20, launched an e commerce website in wine in 1997, when no one knew what the hell that was. When I would tell people we were selling wine through the Internet. This is real what I'm about to say. One liquor salesman, that was my dad's friend who was 50 at the time, ironically thought that when we sold something through the computer, we would take a bottle and put it into a pipe and shoot the bottle up and be delivered. Cause he thought that was the world wide web and the information superhighway. Then I lived through YouTube. I started my wine show early. And then the real social media revolution that I was so at the forefront, Facebook, Twitter, investing in those companies, there is 0.0 doubt in my mind that we will look fondly back at these videos in nine years and be like, we told them.

[Joe Julian]

We told you so. Yeah.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

And this is why. Because we're not geniuses or from the future. This is happening every day.

[Joe Julian]

I know.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I don't understand how we're having this conversation every day. There's millions and millions of dollars being sold on live shopping in America. We don't have to be like, it's coming from China. It's happening every day.

[Joe Julian]

I mean, how big is the market right now? Like 20, 30, 40 billion.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Oh, it's gotta be bigger. I'll tell you why I don't know their number, but I know that Whatnot definitely has somewhere between 5 to 7 in GMV. Yeah, whatnot. I know not TikTok. What not and big shout out to Grant and team. They deserve it. They crushed in collectibles. But, like, that's an independent and that's one correct. And an independent. TikTok's obviously crushing. Obviously their number's always blurred because we haven't touched on it yet. But when they talk about live, they blend affiliate in there. So you don't really know how much of the affiliate. Actually, we do know. We know a lot of it's the affiliate. And more and more every day, it's coming from the live video. But Meta's gonna be an entrant. When Meta gets going, what do you think? YouTube is just gonna sit around and be like, let them beat our face in. So YouTube will do it. Snapchat will do it. Twitch is already doing it. It's not a priority yet. But as they start, like, it's not complicated. This is real.

[Joe Julian]

Yeah. Well, that's the thing, I think when we look at the market and let's assume, and I really believe we're gonna get to ByteDance, we'll do a trillion dollars in a couple of years and the US Market's gonna get up.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

And again, everybody says, I'm sorry to interrupt, a trillion in gmv. So they get a rake of that. They're not doing a trillion in revenue, and there's a trillion dollars worth of stuff being sold. They're getting 8, 10, 7% of that. But just think about that. Think about that. That's right.

[Joe Julian]

But I also think, like, now with the US and every day when you go on TikTok, like, they're learning every single day. They're doing this whole auction process now, which is very similar to whatnot they

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

had to to compete.

[Joe Julian]

And now look at. Look how fast it's. Of course, you go to one, one little room. They've got 700, 800 people just sitting in there, and it's someone in Miami selling random perfume brands. And they're making 20, 30 grand a month for one person.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I mean, we had a comic book show for Veefriends, my Pokemon Marvel brand I'm building right there in that studio. I know people can't see this, but, like, did $114,000 in comic sales in three hours.

[Joe Julian]

That's amazing.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Like, these are real and like, we're just getting. I know it's me and all that, but, like, we're just getting going. It's like we're small at V friends,

[Joe Julian]

you know, the other thing was like, we were looking at it the other day when we first launched Super Ordinary in China. We did Supergoop, the sunscreen.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Joe Julian]

We did $7 million in 20 seconds.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

That's right.

[Joe Julian]

And, and when it first happened, I was like, everyone in the office was just like, that's good. I was like, that's good. That's insane. That's what a brand does in a whole 18 month period in the U.S. and, and I still think that that's the misunderstanding that we're still trying to figure out.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah, I mean, you know, it was at scale and shot at the time Gwyneth's American DNA. Stardom mattered at that point. There was a different west and east relationship then. But again, you don't have to look here very far. And those stories are profound and they continue to be even more and more profound. But I agree with you. Within the next 24 to 36 months, there's gonna be a lot of stories running around in the world. I. I see it in collectibles. The trading card guys and gals, they're doing real numbers. They're doing real numbers on these shows. And it's day zero still. We're not even in day one. And so for every consumable business. And you know, the other thing the Americans don't know or the Europeans is this is about selling homes and cars. Right now everyone thinks it's a trinket and a hat.

[Joe Julian]

When's he selling live crabs and seafood?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Well, by the way, that's happening, actually, there's a show on whatnot where the guy's selling koi now. I made a video about it and everyone was stunned and they didn't believe me. I'm like, go look. He's selling fish. He's selling koi live on whatnot.

[Joe Julian]

You can do it. I mean, in China, people are buying seafood and they're pointing at the fish and they'll be at your house within two days.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

That's right.

[Joe Julian]

Like, it's so efficient. And I think the other thing that we're seeing is services being sold to. You can buy park tickets, you can buy coupons to, you know, geolocate them at Starbucks or Jersey Mike's. And that's all coming to.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Let me explain this. I, as a public speaker who sells my time, you put me on video and I'm auctioning off me coming to your company and speaking for an hour, I'm gonna sell that better than it being listed on my website.

[Joe Julian]

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's so dormant. Like, that's why I think right now we're in the US and sometimes I look US versus China and see where we're sitting, where everyone's on their D to C websites. Over here in China, there's no D2C website, just a super app. So almost. If you took away the D2C sites in the US and we said we're all on TikTok all of a sudden, then we're truly all competing for attention.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

That's right. That's what's going to happen.

[Joe Julian]

That's what's going to happen.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

That's what's going to happen.

[Joe Julian]

So in every single company, it's almost like they should be hiring like a chief attention officer.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah. I mean, I would argue that that's what a chief marketing officer should be thinking. Like. That's right. I think it's a good framework. We have chief brand officers, which is delusion and ideology when it's in practicality. But a chief attention officer would be a much smarter way to think about it. I give you a hat tip for that. That's exactly right. But I would argue that that's what every actual marketer should be doing. And that's what they used to do. They understood that attention was on television and they tried to make the best commercial they could. Right. The issue now is that the attention has shifted to mobile device and apps, but the marketers continue to market in other arenas. But it's not complicated. You know, you were talking and I was thinking, man, this is just. This is 1996 all over again. I had this website, I told everybody that over the next 20 years, the amount of things that people would buy on the Internet were gonna blow your mind. And literally everyone looked me in the face and said, why would I? This is now funny, especially for some of the youngsters in here. I want you to pay attention. People literally said to me, to my face, but why would I go to my computer to buy wine when I could just go to the store and buy it? And I would say, cause it's more convenient because you would have more options because it would be cheaper. Like, don't you understand? And people couldn't understand right now, me and you saying which I could be a Buyer of. Hey, you shouldn't really have an e commerce site. It's all gonna happen on commerce. They'd be like, what are you talking about? Because they accept today that we go to websites and buy stuff. I know unequivocally that live shopping is a more entertaining, more fruitful, more enjoyable shopping experience and is easier. You swipe.

[Joe Julian]

Exactly.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

You swipe. And they put it in front of you. Ooh. But if you don't want that, you just hit the bottom right corner and go into their store. You shop while you're being entertained. I don't understand how people are missing this.

[Joe Julian]

Well, this is the other thing. You know, live shopping and entertainment to me is the one thing that will never get taken away. The reason is that I don't think you can take the human right away from someone to shop and send an agent to go out and buy something that you care about.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

That part. I will take the counter a little bit.

[Joe Julian]

Let's hear it.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

You said the most important part that you care about. I can't wait for my agentic agents to reorder my deodorant because I don't care. And so I will set it and say I want the lowest cost. And because of the way my wife is, I need it to be a clean product and not have chemicals. But what I care about it will be live shopping and AI agents. Everybody in this room and everybody at home that's watching or listening right now. There are categories you care about and there's categories that you don't. I don't care about my socks. For some people, that's the most important. And we will all be in this framework. But here's what gets really interesting. Let me give you another reason live shopping matters. We will all be in live shopping atmospheres. Cause the community, and I just know it. I, Gary, have set my deodorant to reorder the same one over and over. I do not care. I go on live shopping and I see a founder that entertains me and she's got a deodorant that she's selling. And because she entertained me and because I like the vibe and look, I don't know if you see this. I'm getting goosebumps right now. Cause I know I'm talking about the future. I'm gonna be like, you know what? I'm gonna switch out my default agentic and I'm gonna reset this to be the one. So live commerce is gonna be the way to be able to break through and create new consideration through relevance. Because I appreciated what she was doing in that scenario. That is profoundly important.

[Joe Julian]

I think that's so profound in the sense like even when I think about restaurants, how many times do you go through TikTok and someone's eating at this new restaurant, you're like, I would love to go there. And then tomorrow you go around and there's a queue out the door. Ten years ago you would never be able to drum up the queue unless you like. And this is where I think, you know, bringing that together. And that's what I love about live shopping right now and live entertainment is that you, you and I could figure out a way to get a coffee shop over there, bringing the best creators into that store, create a live program and I guarantee you next week there'll be a queue of people standing outside.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

You know, obviously you know this. I have so many relationships with a Fortune 500 CMO. If you and I went to drinks after this, which I wish we could, but I gotta go to a basketball game with my son, which is way cooler for me. And I brought one of my CMO friends who let's play this game out. Who's in apparel. And it's like not interested. What would if. And I said let me tee up my friend Julian here. Like tell them why should they do apparel and live shopping? What are your go to's?

[Joe Julian]

Yeah. So first of all, the consumer today is on TikTok. That's where they're not servicing that customer. They're sitting in the retail mall. People are walking by and they don't see it. The one thing I would say is when you work with affiliates and they coming in and they're motivated to help sell those products in your store online, you're going to get a whole fresh new set of customers. The one thing that I would say is that it is expensive. People think that TikTok's cheap, but when you have to pay out commissions to your affiliates. But there's a reason why it is because the halo impact to all the other channels.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I want to interrupt you because it's important you're paying more because it comes with sales. It's not just branding. CPS sales. Yeah. I mean you're getting what you want. You're guessing when you do a commercial that you hope that it makes the thing that you're paying for an affiliate.

[Joe Julian]

Exactly.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yes.

[Joe Julian]

So I think the number one thing I would say is that, you know, once they, if they don't join and most of them are very hesitant, it's like almost like 10 years ago when no one wanted to go on Amazon because people were scared that it was brand degradation, but today it's so different. So I think, I think brands, the sooner that they adopt, but the other thing that the brands have to do is they have to look at their margin profile too. Now, because you're paying out 20%. 20% to these affiliates.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

But good news for any CPG, they're paying so much in slotting fees and retail media, it's actually cheaper.

[Joe Julian]

Yeah, yeah. Well, look at what's happened.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Hold on. I want you to sit on this because I want your sales pitch to be stronger. It is cheaper. If you look at it on surface, you're like, oh, I have to pay out this. But what about all the retail media you're buying from Walmart and Amazon just to be in their store? Like people don't get it.

[Joe Julian]

And all the associates that you have to send in, the education, the retail

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

agents, rather the retail media, the slotting fees and the retail media just by themselves already advertises out and arms you to be more profitable on the affiliate. The end. Exactly. Just that.

[Joe Julian]

Exactly. I mean, the other day I was talking to a guy who's setting her brand. He's got two people in this whole branding company that for his CPG product, just two, and they're both doing content on AI and on Instagram and TikTok. And that's all. Everything else is outsourced. Yep. So now, you know, the ability for him to extend gross margin on these products is so much higher, of course. But you know, all these brands that have been created on TikTok today, whether it's brand we saw Gruins and all these other brands, you know, these things came out.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Did the Gruins number get. I saw the headline. Did. Is our number floating around?

[Joe Julian]

I didn't see the number, but I'm assuming it's probably.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Well, it's a real number, of course. Of course. It's gotta be a real number. They were doing real revenue. Yeah. And to me, Gruins is not an anomaly. It's the preview. And Mary was organic before that, and on and on and on.

[Joe Julian]

I have a question for you about brands, please. So when you think about brands that you and I could spin up a brand today on pet food or something like that, what do you think of the value of brand in this new day and age?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I think it's the value that brand always was, but we didn't have the technology or the understanding to face the truth. Brand has been a Madison Avenue Don Draper Academic how brands grow. Academic exercise that is built in complete fantasy that you. You in a boardroom as four people are gonna come up with a sentence that represents the brand and that everybody on earth is gonna be like, got it. Coach stands for experience luxury. Or Coca Cola stands for escapism at best. Or BMW stands for powerful luxury. When in reality, what was happening was millions of people had a different relationship with what just do it meant. What does just do it mean? I actually had a huge debate with my own team six years ago on a flight that's very famous in our company, where all the OGs that work for me were battling me and saying, you don't respect brand. I'm like, I'm the only one that does respect brand. Let me keep explaining. I said, we're gonna do an exercise right now. I said, all of you, take out your pen. It was actually their phones. And I said, you need to just write yes or no, and then we're all gonna share. I said, just do it. Does just do it as a brand stand for a student at home who's really a good student? And the Nike just do it brand represents. She goes hard at homework, yes or no? I asked all my people. Half of them said yes, half said no. I said, let's now talk about this because it is human interpretation of brand in a boardroom that is this mystical brand in real life. Let's let me tell you how it actually works. I can mention any brand to the six of us in this room right now, and we would all answer slightly different. Because what does McDonald's mean to me? To me, that brand means. That was luxury for me when I moved to America. Cause we were immigrants and we had no money. And getting a Big Mac was like getting a Mercedes Benz. Cause I couldn't believe my mom splurged. So my emotional relationship with Ronald McDonald is, like, very deep. That's what that brand means to me. And the chicken nuggets I used to like when they were really bad for you and da, da, da, da, da. Brand means something different to everyone. That's like asking people what God means. What does God. So we have this ideology that we can force feed into Americans, Europeans, Asians, like the consumer. The 8 billion people that us three people in a fucking boardroom can come up with something to shove it down people's throats. And that's what the brand needs to represent when in real life it's interpreted 40,000 different ways. So I like living in real life and the way that marketers uphold brand is much more Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy than they'd like to admit, and it's grounded in their own insecurity and audacity for protection of their job. And I'm thrilled that you're pushing down your brand, but have you opened up Instagram? Cause I can type in Chanel right now, search it, and have 87,000 different pieces of content because humans make it. And so the same look and feel that everyone has been trying to achieve has been dead for a decade. That's how I feel about that, brother.

[Joe Julian]

I love it. I love it. Well, I mean, that brings me to the next point is like, in the world today.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

And by the way, I'm sorry to interrupt, because I really want to make this point for anyone who's listening. I believe in brand over everything. I believe in brand over everything. I believe the faux pas is the interpretation of it in boardrooms. I believe in brand over everything. It's all I do. I'm a brand. I built brand.

[Joe Julian]

That's the only thing that can't be disintermediated.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I've built brand. I love when people argue with me on this and, like, you don't get it. I'm like, I don't get it. I built a massive brand. I get it because I, GaryVee, mean many things to many different people. Right. I have all sorts of versions of me. I am willing to be relevant with as many different people on many different reasons that creates a large brand. What brand means in Fortune 500 land is let me pick one lane and push it down on people.

[Joe Julian]

Exactly.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

So I know what brand is. I've done it. In fact, I'm a living version of it.

[Joe Julian]

Well, I mean, one of the ambitions always is to build your own personal brand. You know, I recently started doing this podcast, and one of the things that I've, you know, personal mission outside of Super Ordinary is I really believe in bringing the affiliates along and bringing the creator.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I agree.

[Joe Julian]

And, you know, we've been put into an opportunity where we can help other people make money. And, you know, nothing makes me more happy when someone comes into our office at Super Ordinary and comes into a live streaming room and says, you know, I made $7,000 last month.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

That's right.

[Joe Julian]

And I last month I was unemployed. I had nothing to make. And we work with all different shapes and sizes of creators. And I honestly believe that if we fast forward a couple of years, there could be 50, 60, 70 million affiliates in this country. And how can we help them?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Let me Tell you how I think about this. I believe that many people, when I wrote Crush it in 2009 and said that people were gonna make money on the Internet and social people really ridiculed me. Like if you go look at the Amazon reviews, people call me a snake oil salesman. Cause I said somebody could make $50,000 a year on YouTube. This is only 2009. I believe a lot of people right now, almost every 17 year old wants to become an influencer when they grow up. We all know that. I believe a lot of people that want to be content creators and make money like Charli d' Amelio and Logan Paul, actually will be very good social sellers, but could never have been a content creator. The skill set of being good on camera and selling is different than making content. It's a different skill set. And again, I don't know, if you see this camera, please catch it. I agree with you. The amount of people. Listen, this is important to say there will be many people that actually make a million dollars a year just being on camera all day selling. That will happen. That will be many people. But that is clearly not everyone. We all know that. You know what I get excited about? I get excited about the person that's Gonna actually make $9,000 in a year, occasionally being on live, selling, selling and affiliating. But that 9,000 means that their family's gonna go on a nicer vacation that year. Like I'm excited about the long tail, right? We're gonna have the people that are gonna get famous and make 40 million a year for being like the lady with the bat, right? Like I plan on being one of those people. But I'm so happy for the people that are, that instead of a television station getting the money to try to sell dog food in a 30 second video that nobody's gonna watch, that all those little pennies that they're not gonna waste there are gonna go into all these people and I'm very excited about it.

[Joe Julian]

I mean, nothing brings me more. Joe, when you come into LA next, when you come to see our affiliate,

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I can't wait to see it.

[Joe Julian]

When you, you go in all the different chat rooms of all the different categories and we have these creators who are just like constantly telling us how much they're making. And it really does make a difference. If they make 300 bucks, that's no.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

It matters, bro. That matters, bro. It's why I love ebay. Making an extra hundred bucks a week selling stuff in your house matters. In a world with AI in A world of everything that's happening. People are going to have to stand on their own two feet more. And the long tail of each independence and the gig economy is gonna matter. And not everyone has the same skills. Some people are really good with their hands and they can use TaskRabbit and fix people's homes, and that'll be good because it's gonna take some time for robots. Other people are really good at creative and they can get brand deals. But there's a lot of people that their number one skill is the gift of Gavin selling stuff. And instead of working at Nordstrom's and selling clothes for Nordstrom, they're gonna be online selling all sorts of things, figuring out where the higher affiliates are and winning.

[Joe Julian]

So, you know when you speak to a creator or an affiliate who's thinking about for the first time and you feel, I mean, you do all these great conversions speaking to people, what's your number one thing to tell them to do first?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Like, please allow me the grace that over the last 30 years, I've had enough successes that you hear me when I say this, this is a huge opportunity for you. Please try. That's number one. That's number one. Please don't sit in the crowd or listen right now on the podcast, or if I clip this and link superordinary, Please don't be a cynic and be like, that doesn't work. That's not for me. That's for one per. He's wrong. That will never happen. Before you say no, say maybe and put in the work for 10 to 15 hours to educate yourself and then get on, then try.

[Joe Julian]

That's exactly right.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

That's it. I actually have nothing else to say because I know if they do 10 hours of work studying and they give it 10 hours of being live, I just am asking for 20 hours to potentially change your life. Give me 10 hours of research, because you'll need to know a little something, because then your 10 hours, when you go live, you'll actually be further along. I believe in those 20 hours, you'll taste what we're talking about, enough to decide if this is right for you or not.

[Joe Julian]

And the great thing is the feedback loop is immediate. You'll learn it, and once you get comfortable, it's just going to happen like that.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

It's a very special time. And I'm really proud of you, brother, because you've really executed way ahead of the market. And you know this like, we're now close to the next chapter where people aren't doubting us. They're commending us. And I'm just very excited to be on board, brother.

[Joe Julian]

It's exciting. Thanks, Gary.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Of course. Thanks for having me.

[Joe Julian]

Got one thing for you today. So to all my guests.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Oh, you did some homework on me.

[Joe Julian]

I give them a record.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Wow.

[Joe Julian]

Vinyls. More about our age group more than anything.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Wow.

[Joe Julian]

So Hendrix.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I mean, this. I mean, this is amazing. But this, this is the album that changed my life. I don't like. This was the album that changed my life because back to storytelling. And by the way, when we're gonna be in this QVC selling era and then we're gonna go into commerce tainment. You wanna talk about a true storyteller? I had never listened to an album where after it was over, I had felt like I was his best friend in his room, saw the posters that he was hanging in his room, knew his life. I'd never felt, after listening to an album, like I literally was friends with the person and. Thank you very much.

[Joe Julian]

You're welcome.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Thank you, brother. Cheers, everybody. If you enjoyed this podcast, please go back and look at the prior episodes. They're loaded. I appreciate your attention and thanks for being part of this journey. See you later.