Episode Summary: The Future of Brand, Culture and Marketing | Fireside Chat with GaryVee & Michael Smith

Podcast: The GaryVee Audio Experience
Date: September 15, 2025
Host: Gary Vaynerchuk
Guest: Michael Smith

Overview

In this fireside chat, Gary Vaynerchuk and Michael Smith dive deep into the shifting landscape of brand, culture, and marketing in 2025. The conversation centers around the evolution of social media platforms, the concept of underpriced attention, the interplay between creativity and algorithms, organizational culture, leadership, timing, and following one’s passion. The tone is candid, energetic, provocative, and full of actionable, no-nonsense advice for marketers and business leaders.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Power Shift in Social Media and Marketing (00:00–04:02)

• Social Media's Disruptive Force:
  Gary highlights viral examples (Chili’s mango gummy on TikTok, Ocean Spray/Fleetwood Mac) and emphasizes that social media is now the main driver of business outcomes, often at a fraction of the cost of traditional campaigns.
• Practitioner Over Philosopher:
  Gary argues the importance of being in-the-field practitioners rather than relying on outdated academic marketing philosophies.

  "We're wasting our time on audacious philosophies and academia and we're not in the trenches." — Gary (02:49)

• Algorithms Trump Subjectivity:
  The creative that wins is chosen by algorithms and consumers, not by subjective boardroom opinions.
• The “Creative Meritocracy”:
  Anyone—regardless of following—can have their content explode; no more guaranteed reach via follower counts.

  "Somebody... never posted on social... could decide to open a TikTok account today, make their first post and that video can get more views than my post..." — Gary (03:28)

• The Changing Nature of Distribution:
  Old models—email marketing, early social guarantees—are gone. It's now a dynamic, platform-determined landscape.

2. Framework of Under and Overpriced Attention (04:02–07:34)

• Medium-Agnostic, Value-First Thinking:
  Gary tells marketers: everything can work (newspaper, TV, digital) if it's priced right. The problem is overvalued formats.
• Case Study: Super Bowl Ads:
  Calls Super Bowl spots "grossly underpriced" given the mass reach for the investment (04:24).
• Investing in Underpriced Attention:
  Gary credits the success of giants like Amazon and P&G to an early, aggressive investment in emerging media (Google AdWords, TV in its infancy).

  “Amazon being the number one spender on Google AdWords... doesn’t have a direct correlation to how big Amazon is today." — Gary (05:10)

• Dynamic Attention Trading:
  What’s “underpriced” changes quickly; marketers need to incessantly “day trade attention.”
• Separation of Media/Creative Led to Fake ROI:
  Decoupling strategy led to vanity metrics and lack of real result.

3. The Rise and Implications of Virtual Influencers & Evolution of Culture (07:34–11:00)

• Virtual Influencers & VTubers:
  Gary explains the growth of AI-generated digital personalities, noting their seamlessness and popularity—especially in places like Japan:

  “There's a stunning chance that your son could marry a non-human being.” — Gary (07:47)

• Cycles of Tech Fear:
  He draws parallels to past panics (beepers, BlackBerry, the kaleidoscope), reminding us hysteria about new tech is perennial.
• Optimism Over Fear:
  Challenges marketers and parents to choose optimism and adaptability over fear.

  “If you come from a lens of optimism versus pessimism or fear, it opens you up both in your human spirit and in your marketing and business behaviors.” — Gary (09:35)

4. The “Yes, And” Culture & The New Creative Paradigm (11:00–14:43)

• Scarcity vs. Abundance Mindset:
  Most brands/marketers were trained to play it safe and narrow.
• From Subjective to Data-Driven Creative:
  Legacy “TV thinking” (single campaign, subjective micro-management) is ill-suited to today’s needs.

  “We love a good campaign… But in 2024, spending seven months on a brief and an idea and then pitching it is illogical.” — Gary (13:00)

• Creative Now Drives Reach:
  For the first time, creative content itself—if good—earns reach organically, not just spend.

  “Let me say that nice and slow for the kids in the back...The creative itself creates the reach.” — Gary (13:47)

• Actionable Advice:
  Brands should create with the intent to test many ideas in-market, and not throttle output out of insecurity.

5. Operators vs. Leaders: Staying Hands-On (14:43–19:01)

• Gary’s Competitive Edge:
  Hands-on operation—staying “in the dirt”—is how Gary stays ahead. Agencies beholden to holding companies can't invest long-term; they must “make numbers every 90 days.”
• Advice to Agency Leaders:
  Flexibility (independence) allows investment and long-term play, even if short-term profits are lower.
• Emotional Mastery:
  Balance: Don’t get “too high” on praise or “too low” on criticism.

  "Sometimes I feel like I’m the most dominant force in the game, and other days I’m like, men, you’re fucking overrated, Gary Vee..." — Gary (18:23)

6. Culture, Values, and Building Teams (19:01–23:14)

• Inverted Hierarchy:
  Employees are your boss; leaders serve the team, not the other way around.

  "If you are a leader and you are confused by the following sentence, you have no shot of winning long term. The sentence is employees and anybody that works for you are actually your boss." — Gary (19:47)

• No “Bad Human” Tolerance:
  Even star performers are let go if they’re toxic.

  “I fire every single person that is not a good human being, regardless of how much money she or he makes for me.” — Gary (20:24)

• Hiring is Guessing, Firing is Knowing:
  Hire quickly, fire (and promote) even quicker once you know.

  "Hiring is guessing, promoting and firing is knowing." — Gary (21:23)

• Culture by Effort and Continuity:
  Longevity (tenures over a decade) is earned by truly caring and investing time.

7. Sensing When to Make a Move: Timing & Agility (23:14–29:27)

• Simply: Pay Attention and Stay Humble:
  Gary’s repeated “predictions” are just early observations—he’s in the dirt, not in the “penthouse” (detached from reality).

  “I’m not a futurist... I’m just paying attention." — Gary (23:57)

• Example:
  Saturn App—a high school calendar chat app already at 80% penetration—signals what could be next. Gary doesn’t guess, he watches.
• Live Social Shopping:
  Already happens at scale (Whatnot, TikTok Shop). Not a fringe “future” anymore.
• Industry Advice:
  Don’t chase “potential reach” or fake metrics—chase real, actualized attention and value.

8. Driving Transformation from Within (29:27–33:52)

• On Being “Heard” as a Change Agent:
  If you can’t dictate transformation, don’t just conform—respectfully communicate your true point of view.

  “Much more fun to die on your own sword than to die on someone else's.” — Gary (31:52)

• On Complaining:
  If you can’t change things and don’t want to leave, stop complaining; it's unproductive—audit your circles for complainers.

9. Passion, Regret, and Living with Purpose (33:52–40:18)

• Find & Follow Your Passion:
  Life is too short for miserable work, and misery at work is the fastest route to lifelong regret.

  “The scariest thing on earth is regret. Regret when you don't have a lot of time left is quadruple scary.” — Gary (35:40)

• Practical Step:
  Donating time to retirement homes brings perspective and urgency to avoid regret.
• Tangible Advice:
  Start posting and expressing your ideas publicly (LinkedIn, etc.). Opportunities now come to those willing to show their value and voice.

  “You can literally go home and make a video every single day... about thoughts you see in your profession... if it’s good and smart, it will lead to opportunities...” — Gary (38:37)

• Accepting Reality:
  If truly necessary, be ready to sacrifice lifestyle spend for greater quality of work-life.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Gary on Social Media's New Era (03:28):

  “Somebody... never posted on social... could decide to open a TikTok account today, make their first post and that video can get more views than my post..."

• On Agency Investment (06:05):

  “If you knew everything and you could do it all, why wouldn't you spend your money and your activities on the things that were better priced?"

• On AI Relationships (07:47):

  "There's a stunning chance that your son could marry a non-human being."

• On Creative Creating Reach (13:47):

  “For the first time in marketing history, the creative itself creates the reach."

• On Internal Agency Culture (19:47):

  “Employees and anybody that works for you are actually your boss."

• On Regret (35:40):

  “The scariest thing on earth is regret. Regret when you don't have a lot of time left is quadruple scary."

• On Posting and Opportunity (38:37):

  “You can literally go home and make a video every single day... if it’s good and smart, it will lead to opportunities..."

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–04:02 — The new reality of social media, algorithm-driven reach, and creative meritocracy
• 04:02–07:34 — Underpriced attention, platform evolutions, history lessons
• 07:34–11:00 — Virtual influencers, generational tech fears, optimism vs. fear
• 11:00–14:43 — “Yes, and” culture, creative distribution, consumer-centric messaging
• 14:43–19:01 — Operator mindset, practitioner advantage, emotional mastery
• 19:01–23:14 — Leadership ethos, firing for values, culture-building
• 23:14–29:27 — Timing, humility, real vs. fake reach
• 29:27–33:52 — Advocating change, voicing beliefs, handling organizational inertia, combating complaining
• 33:52–40:18 — Chasing passion, regret, simple actions to move careers and lives forward, closing banter

Takeaways for Listeners

• Be a Practitioner: Stay close to the work, the platforms, and the consumers—don’t just theorize.
• Chase Underpriced Attention: Know where real attention is, and act quickly.
• Embrace Algorithmic Creative Meritocracy: The best ideas win; test and iterate.
• Build Culture by Action: Serve your team, and don't tolerate toxicity.
• Follow Your Passion: Prioritize fulfillment over empty status or comp, and don’t let regret catch up to you.
• Voice True Beliefs: Speak up for innovation—don’t be the fall gal for status quo mistakes.
• Don’t Fear the Next Big Thing: New tech always scares, but history shows change is constant and can be leveraged for growth.

Final Tone: Direct, passionate, and action-oriented, Gary and Michael deliver an unfiltered look at what it takes to build winning brands, resilient teams, and fulfilling careers in today’s marketing landscape.