The Future of Brand, Culture and Marketing | Fireside Chat with GaryVee & Michael Smith

Summary

Episode Summary: The Future of Brand, Culture and Marketing | Fireside Chat with GaryVee & Michael Smith

Podcast: The GaryVee Audio Experience
Date: September 15, 2025
Host: Gary Vaynerchuk
Guest: Michael Smith

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Overview

In this fireside chat, Gary Vaynerchuk and Michael Smith dive deep into the shifting landscape of brand, culture, and marketing in 2025. The conversation centers around the evolution of social media platforms, the concept of underpriced attention, the interplay between creativity and algorithms, organizational culture, leadership, timing, and following one’s passion. The tone is candid, energetic, provocative, and full of actionable, no-nonsense advice for marketers and business leaders.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Power Shift in Social Media and Marketing (00:00–04:02)

• Social Media's Disruptive Force:
  Gary highlights viral examples (Chili’s mango gummy on TikTok, Ocean Spray/Fleetwood Mac) and emphasizes that social media is now the main driver of business outcomes, often at a fraction of the cost of traditional campaigns.
• Practitioner Over Philosopher:
  Gary argues the importance of being in-the-field practitioners rather than relying on outdated academic marketing philosophies.

  "We're wasting our time on audacious philosophies and academia and we're not in the trenches." — Gary (02:49)

• Algorithms Trump Subjectivity:
  The creative that wins is chosen by algorithms and consumers, not by subjective boardroom opinions.
• The “Creative Meritocracy”:
  Anyone—regardless of following—can have their content explode; no more guaranteed reach via follower counts.

  "Somebody... never posted on social... could decide to open a TikTok account today, make their first post and that video can get more views than my post..." — Gary (03:28)

• The Changing Nature of Distribution:
  Old models—email marketing, early social guarantees—are gone. It's now a dynamic, platform-determined landscape.

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2. Framework of Under and Overpriced Attention (04:02–07:34)

• Medium-Agnostic, Value-First Thinking:
  Gary tells marketers: everything can work (newspaper, TV, digital) if it's priced right. The problem is overvalued formats.
• Case Study: Super Bowl Ads:
  Calls Super Bowl spots "grossly underpriced" given the mass reach for the investment (04:24).
• Investing in Underpriced Attention:
  Gary credits the success of giants like Amazon and P&G to an early, aggressive investment in emerging media (Google AdWords, TV in its infancy).

  “Amazon being the number one spender on Google AdWords... doesn’t have a direct correlation to how big Amazon is today." — Gary (05:10)

• Dynamic Attention Trading:
  What’s “underpriced” changes quickly; marketers need to incessantly “day trade attention.”
• Separation of Media/Creative Led to Fake ROI:
  Decoupling strategy led to vanity metrics and lack of real result.

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3. The Rise and Implications of Virtual Influencers & Evolution of Culture (07:34–11:00)

• Virtual Influencers & VTubers:
  Gary explains the growth of AI-generated digital personalities, noting their seamlessness and popularity—especially in places like Japan:

  “There's a stunning chance that your son could marry a non-human being.” — Gary (07:47)

• Cycles of Tech Fear:
  He draws parallels to past panics (beepers, BlackBerry, the kaleidoscope), reminding us hysteria about new tech is perennial.
• Optimism Over Fear:
  Challenges marketers and parents to choose optimism and adaptability over fear.

  “If you come from a lens of optimism versus pessimism or fear, it opens you up both in your human spirit and in your marketing and business behaviors.” — Gary (09:35)

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4. The “Yes, And” Culture & The New Creative Paradigm (11:00–14:43)

• Scarcity vs. Abundance Mindset:
  Most brands/marketers were trained to play it safe and narrow.
• From Subjective to Data-Driven Creative:
  Legacy “TV thinking” (single campaign, subjective micro-management) is ill-suited to today’s needs.

  “We love a good campaign… But in 2024, spending seven months on a brief and an idea and then pitching it is illogical.” — Gary (13:00)

• Creative Now Drives Reach:
  For the first time, creative content itself—if good—earns reach organically, not just spend.

  “Let me say that nice and slow for the kids in the back...The creative itself creates the reach.” — Gary (13:47)

• Actionable Advice:
  Brands should create with the intent to test many ideas in-market, and not throttle output out of insecurity.

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5. Operators vs. Leaders: Staying Hands-On (14:43–19:01)

• Gary’s Competitive Edge:
  Hands-on operation—staying “in the dirt”—is how Gary stays ahead. Agencies beholden to holding companies can't invest long-term; they must “make numbers every 90 days.”
• Advice to Agency Leaders:
  Flexibility (independence) allows investment and long-term play, even if short-term profits are lower.
• Emotional Mastery:
  Balance: Don’t get “too high” on praise or “too low” on criticism.

  "Sometimes I feel like I’m the most dominant force in the game, and other days I’m like, men, you’re fucking overrated, Gary Vee..." — Gary (18:23)

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6. Culture, Values, and Building Teams (19:01–23:14)

• Inverted Hierarchy:
  Employees are your boss; leaders serve the team, not the other way around.

  "If you are a leader and you are confused by the following sentence, you have no shot of winning long term. The sentence is employees and anybody that works for you are actually your boss." — Gary (19:47)

• No “Bad Human” Tolerance:
  Even star performers are let go if they’re toxic.

  “I fire every single person that is not a good human being, regardless of how much money she or he makes for me.” — Gary (20:24)

• Hiring is Guessing, Firing is Knowing:
  Hire quickly, fire (and promote) even quicker once you know.

  "Hiring is guessing, promoting and firing is knowing." — Gary (21:23)

• Culture by Effort and Continuity:
  Longevity (tenures over a decade) is earned by truly caring and investing time.

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7. Sensing When to Make a Move: Timing & Agility (23:14–29:27)

• Simply: Pay Attention and Stay Humble:
  Gary’s repeated “predictions” are just early observations—he’s in the dirt, not in the “penthouse” (detached from reality).

  “I’m not a futurist... I’m just paying attention." — Gary (23:57)

• Example:
  Saturn App—a high school calendar chat app already at 80% penetration—signals what could be next. Gary doesn’t guess, he watches.
• Live Social Shopping:
  Already happens at scale (Whatnot, TikTok Shop). Not a fringe “future” anymore.
• Industry Advice:
  Don’t chase “potential reach” or fake metrics—chase real, actualized attention and value.

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8. Driving Transformation from Within (29:27–33:52)

• On Being “Heard” as a Change Agent:
  If you can’t dictate transformation, don’t just conform—respectfully communicate your true point of view.

  “Much more fun to die on your own sword than to die on someone else's.” — Gary (31:52)

• On Complaining:
  If you can’t change things and don’t want to leave, stop complaining; it's unproductive—audit your circles for complainers.

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9. Passion, Regret, and Living with Purpose (33:52–40:18)

• Find & Follow Your Passion:
  Life is too short for miserable work, and misery at work is the fastest route to lifelong regret.

  “The scariest thing on earth is regret. Regret when you don't have a lot of time left is quadruple scary.” — Gary (35:40)

• Practical Step:
  Donating time to retirement homes brings perspective and urgency to avoid regret.
• Tangible Advice:
  Start posting and expressing your ideas publicly (LinkedIn, etc.). Opportunities now come to those willing to show their value and voice.

  “You can literally go home and make a video every single day... about thoughts you see in your profession... if it’s good and smart, it will lead to opportunities...” — Gary (38:37)

• Accepting Reality:
  If truly necessary, be ready to sacrifice lifestyle spend for greater quality of work-life.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Gary on Social Media's New Era (03:28):

  “Somebody... never posted on social... could decide to open a TikTok account today, make their first post and that video can get more views than my post..."

• On Agency Investment (06:05):

  “If you knew everything and you could do it all, why wouldn't you spend your money and your activities on the things that were better priced?"

• On AI Relationships (07:47):

  "There's a stunning chance that your son could marry a non-human being."

• On Creative Creating Reach (13:47):

  “For the first time in marketing history, the creative itself creates the reach."

• On Internal Agency Culture (19:47):

  “Employees and anybody that works for you are actually your boss."

• On Regret (35:40):

  “The scariest thing on earth is regret. Regret when you don't have a lot of time left is quadruple scary."

• On Posting and Opportunity (38:37):

  “You can literally go home and make a video every single day... if it’s good and smart, it will lead to opportunities..."

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–04:02 — The new reality of social media, algorithm-driven reach, and creative meritocracy
• 04:02–07:34 — Underpriced attention, platform evolutions, history lessons
• 07:34–11:00 — Virtual influencers, generational tech fears, optimism vs. fear
• 11:00–14:43 — “Yes, and” culture, creative distribution, consumer-centric messaging
• 14:43–19:01 — Operator mindset, practitioner advantage, emotional mastery
• 19:01–23:14 — Leadership ethos, firing for values, culture-building
• 23:14–29:27 — Timing, humility, real vs. fake reach
• 29:27–33:52 — Advocating change, voicing beliefs, handling organizational inertia, combating complaining
• 33:52–40:18 — Chasing passion, regret, simple actions to move careers and lives forward, closing banter

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Be a Practitioner: Stay close to the work, the platforms, and the consumers—don’t just theorize.
• Chase Underpriced Attention: Know where real attention is, and act quickly.
• Embrace Algorithmic Creative Meritocracy: The best ideas win; test and iterate.
• Build Culture by Action: Serve your team, and don't tolerate toxicity.
• Follow Your Passion: Prioritize fulfillment over empty status or comp, and don’t let regret catch up to you.
• Voice True Beliefs: Speak up for innovation—don’t be the fall gal for status quo mistakes.
• Don’t Fear the Next Big Thing: New tech always scares, but history shows change is constant and can be leveraged for growth.

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Final Tone: Direct, passionate, and action-oriented, Gary and Michael deliver an unfiltered look at what it takes to build winning brands, resilient teams, and fulfilling careers in today’s marketing landscape.

Transcript

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

This is the GaryVee audio experience. I hope that some of you have already read the headlines of Chili's in the US where 40% of its revenue in Q3 is attributable to one TikTok. The mango gummy craze of people selling it on ebay for a premium off of one TikTok. The Ocean Spray thing. I think everybody knows what that did for Fleetwood Mac and Ocean Spray. We've never had the luxury of something so phenomenal for such a low price. We can change the outcomes of our business, but we must become actual practitioners. I think the industry got it reversed. As you know and as all of you know, a lot of people took social in house or fund it very small because they think it's the commodity, it's supposed to support the campaign. I think of it as reverse. I think the campaign is the commodity. There is this room alone, let alone the world, has many brilliant strategists and creatives that can come up with the tagline and the commercial. To me, that's the commodity. The science around the art to be able to win on Facebook versus Instagram, Instagram versus Snapchat, Snapchat versus TikTok, LinkedIn versus YouTube shorts. We've over 100 employees internally that work on something called pack platforms and culture. All they do for a living is understand how the algos work on the eight platforms that matter or what's happening in popular culture across all different segments around the world of interest. Korean pop gaming, slime trends for girls making slime. I mean, why Sabrina Carpenter happened, like all of it. And so I think we're wasting our time on audacious philosophies and academia and we're not in the trenches. In fact, I think it's crazy in 2025 to spend media on any creative that wasn't validated by the algorithm that consumers wanted. The thought of spending media upfront in 2025 only speaks to someone that doesn't realize what's just happened. Social media, the one that I fell in love with in 2005, 6, 7, 8 social media in the early days, the reason I was so intuitive about it was the way I built my daddy's liquor store was not social media. It was email Marketing and Google AdWords. It was direct mail. Right? It was a lot of different marketing functions. Social media when it first came out and for the first decade 2005 to 2015 was email marketing. Get as many people to follow you as possible, post something and get a kind of guaranteed amount of people to Open right. What has happened in the TikTok ification of all social media platforms over the last three years is we don't live in that world anymore. I've been doing this every single day for 17 years. Hardcore. And the fact that somebody in this room who's never posted on social in their lives could decide to open a TikTok account today, make their first post and that video can get more views than my post later this afternoon is a level of creative meritocracy that has never been seen in the world. So I was showing you last night and I don't have a camera here to make it worth. I don't want to. I'll just tell you what's here. I showed Michael last night to really tell him the extremes of what's going on. I showed him a piece of content on my account, my Instagram account. I have 10.3 million followers. I showed him a piece of content and it got 19 million views. My most successful video in that platform. I showed him another piece of content and the logic and why I thought it was gonna do as well and great. I was super fired up about it. That was posted three days later and it got 400,000. I don't think most as you know, one of the things that I think has really helped me, one of the reasons for all of you this may make sense to you. One of the reasons I still do GaryVee is because I believe being a practitioner is the advantage. I do all of the marketing veefriends. My dad's wine text like being an operator of marketing every day as a CEO is a substantial competitive advantage. So for me, I don't believe that people have realized the extremities of what's.

[Michael]

Happening in organic social over and underpriced attention. Can you share a little bit about that framework with this group and what it means for marketers and advertisers?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I think anything could work. I don't think newspaper ads are per se dead. I think that they're just very expensive based on how people act in 2024, I think television can work. In fact, you know this. I believe the super bowl ad is the single best media buy in the world. I think it is grossly underpriced. When you get 130, 140 million Americans to consume a 30 second video for 7 or 8 million dollars. That is insanely challenging. Even if you were remarkable at best digital and social and influencer work. The problem, as many of us know, is if the creative's wrong now you're in real trouble, right? So there's attention, and then what do you do with the attention? And so for me, I've become infatuated because my career was built and I watched the biggest companies in the world built on over investing in underpriced attention in the first six years of Google AdWords. Google AdWords were uncomfortably underpriced. There's no mistaking that Amazon being the number one spender on Google AdWords by a magnitude of 5x to the number two spender of eBay in that era doesn't have a direct correlation to how big Amazon is today. Procter and Gamble is Procter and Gamble today. Because when we transitioned from a primary radio society to a primary television society, a lot of advertisers held to writing copy for radio because they were romantic about it. And P and G went all in. And their execution in the first 10 years of television outpaced every other consumer brand. The things we're all seeing today are dictated by what we're seeing in social influencer and other underpriced behavior. So when people say like, TV is dead, I don't think TV is dead. I think the standard television commercial's media cost is grossly overpriced in comparison to if you understood how to do every marketing behavior. Direct mail, search, television, social media, digital banners, pre roll. If you knew everything and you could do it all, why wouldn't you spend your money and your activities on the things that were better priced? And so the thesis of underpriced attention, or the concept of the book I wrote, day trading attention is what I think is a good deal in marketing or content creation changes constantly. You know, we took a long flight yesterday together. We're talking about virtual influencers, we're talking about live social shopping. Like, this is moving fast. And trust me, I wish I grew up in marketing in the 50s, 60s and 70s. I would have loved drinking a fucking cocktail in the middle of the day shooting the shit. I'm very good at coming up with slogans. I'm good at that shit. I would have fucking dominated. I would have high fived the fucking out of Don Draper. But I didn't get that this is the era I'm in. And so I feel as though the merit of marketing is misunderstood. The separation of media and creative was a really big issue for all of us. It created an ecosystem of fake reports that we all overpay for. It's all corporate shit. You all know it. I'm not smart. I'm just independent.

[Michael]

I couldn't agree more. I'm petrified of virtual influencers, as you showed me yesterday. Yes, we'll see where that goes.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Well, let me tell you where it's gonna go.

[Michael]

Please.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

There's a stunning chance that your son could marry a non human being.

[Michael]

He's only four man.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

But we're where I'm going here. Again, one thing that I don't think we do well is we don't look at all 8 billion people, right? I'm sure this will land with this Canadian crowd. Fucking Americans piss me off. They're so in their own shit. I'm like, you know, there's a world, right? And so when you look at like, for example, virtual influencers, these are AI people, people that are not real. But on Instagram right now, by the nanosecond, are starting to look more and more. A year ago, you could kind of tell it was a little too photoshoppy right? Now, I promise you, some of you consumed a human. You thought it was a human, and it's not. Meanwhile, in Japan, and again, if anybody here has lived there or has had the luxury of marketing or doing business there, this is pretty advanced. VTubers are a big deal. There are people that are consuming unlimited content of live streaming virtual influencers called VTubers. And it's gone so far that there are many people that are paying to be in relationships with a vtuber. And so when people say, like, oh my God, everything's all fucked up now, like, all the kids are in social and on the phone, I remind people that the beeper was here just a few minutes ago. The BlackBerry that you all loved so much that you would never leave because you had to feel the buttons. And so I tell parents, if you're scared about what's happening right now, wait to 25 years from now. This is the mundane. And I tell you, back to history. Go Google or AI search articles about the kaleidoscope. When the kaleidoscope was invented, the amount of articles written in Europe that it was going to ruin the. The children, because they were always like this. Michael. I think fear, I think fear is unfortunately very effectively being weaponized right now. I think fear is having a good moment, which is really devastating to me. But I. I challenge everyone here. When you hear a virtual influencer and having a relationship with it, I'm not confused that everyone's like, what the fuck, right? But I challenge you to realize humans continue to evolve. Things are different, things change. And if you come from a lens of optimism versus pessimism or fear. I think it opens you up both in your human spirit and in your marketing and business behaviors. I am firmly in the business business of maybe in a world of people that are just in love with. No, see, the alarm just went off. Are we done? That's it. See ya. Thank you for having me.

[Michael]

So you talked about the business of maybe. I want to talk about that a little bit more. One of the things that you say a lot which I absolutely believe in is this idea of a yes. And culture.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yes.

[Michael]

And brands and marketers. So many grew up in a world of scarcity.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yes.

[Michael]

So can you talk a little bit about what yes and means and what's the importance of both quantity and quality to success in social.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

So I think we unfortunately continue to treat social media with a television mindset that it is that we will sit in a boardroom and come up with ideas and judge every word and the grid of our Instagram is being treated like a full page ad in Vogue. And there's just. We're not letting go of this incredible insecurity known as my subjective opinion. And so when I think about the firepower of this room, I'm desperate to see all of your ideas hit the end consumer. And that to me is not spray and pray and throw against the wall and see what sticks and even test and learn. That is distribution has changed. Distribution has changed. Where consumers attention has gone, has changed. This is now without a shadow of a doubt the primary device of society. It's not even close. I couldn't even comprehend anyone arguing the counter. But people do in marketing industry because we want to hold up books that were written in the 90s, decks that were written in early 2000. And so what? Yes. And to me is if you're trying to sell Starry or these sneakers or anything that's represented in this room, our number one job is to create consideration from as many different consumer segmentations as humanly possible. Why if you are trying to sell something, a vision, a story or a product or business, why wouldn't you want everybody on earth to buy it? So sitting around and thinking one video, one vanilla video and then matching luggage to support that vanilla video is the right way to do marketing in 2024. You do understand that every basic common sense, somewhat solidly bright person on earth that doesn't live in our industry thinks everything we do is stupid, Right? Like animatics, focus groups of six customers. When we have social media, like what are we doing? And so. And so, yeah, I mean we love a good campaign, we're gonna wait. I mean, I feel so bad for creative agencies. All I hear from cmos is like, blah, blah, blah, they didn't crack it. No shit they didn't crack it. You're making a subjective opinion, they're pitching you subjective opinions. But I also don't have empathy for it because in 2024, spending seven months on a brief and an idea and then pitching it is illogical. And so, yes, they end to me is everyone here has unlimited good ideas of stories that may resonate with many different consumer segmentations. And now we have this blessing, marketing blessing called social media, where for the first time in the history of marketing, the creative creates the reach. Let me say that nice and slow for the kids in the back. Michael. For the first time in marketing history, the thing we've all wanted as creatives is true. The creative itself creates the reach. Not we make a piece of creative and we spend an ungodly amount of money to force people to watch our shit. This is huge. And until people understand that they will continue to lose market share.

[Michael]

Couldn't agree more. I want to push a little bit on the idea of behaving as an operator.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Okay.

[Michael]

You sit across VaynerX at this point, multiple different companies under the umbrella. You could easily just focus on leadership, chairman style role across all of these different entities. But you spend a lot of your time engaging in the day to day of all of those businesses and spending time researching to truly actually operate the businesses. Number one, how do you think about the balance between acting as an operator and trying to act as a leader across all of those businesses? And number two, how do you think that manifests itself in a competitive advantage against other agencies that might operate in a different way?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Well, look, I mean, the number two is simple. And for anybody that owns an agency here or aspires to staying independent as long as humanly possible is the competitive advantage again? There's a lot of things that have happened in my life where I don't get high on my own supply. I don't think I'm special or good or smart. I think I structured, I made a good decision to give me the freedom to do the thing right. So when I think about our competitive advantage against other agencies. We opened up Canada 18 months ago. Why? When I looked at the landscape in this incredible country, it's mainly holding company owned. And if you're in a holding company owned environment, you're not less good than vaynermedia. You're not less creative, you're not less Smart. You just have to make numbers every 90 days or you're fucking dead. If I had a board or I was part of a holding company this year. This is real talk. This is not hyperbole. I just need you to hear this nice and slow, because I'm hoping this brings value to somebody. If I today was publicly traded, even if I was privately held and had a board that had power, or if Vayner was part of a holding company, I would be getting fired at the end of this year. We did not grow enough, and we made a lot less money this year. A lot less. And do you know why I'm happy? Because I invested my fucking face off this year and I'm gonna fucking kill everybody next year. That does not make me better than the competition. It means I have the luxury to do that. And so I have, actually deep empathy and compassion for the agencies that are part of this. I feel bad. I get it. Those MDs, those crazy. There's a lot of stress, and the industry's changing. Nobody's confused by that. There's a lot going on in our world. So that's how I think about that. The practitionership. Yes. You know this. I come in cold into meetings, and I know what's going on because I'm living it every day. My team's like, we want to prep you for the meeting. I'm like, I've been prepped. There is no prep. There's no need for prep. I'm not coming cold. I'm not a banker. I'm in this shit. Yeah, that was a dig. So that is a very big deal to me. And, you know, as far as the way practitioner, operating or leader, chairman. Look, I think when you own a business, just like when you're a parent, everything's on you. How do I think about it? That it's my responsibility and I have been flow. And I think again, for parents or owners in here or leaders or CEOs, I would ask you to not beat yourself up. You're trying. Like, some. Some weeks are gonna be better than others. Some years are gonna be better than others. Some months are gonna be better than others. Sometimes I feel like I'm the most dominant force in the game, and other days I'm like, man, you're fucking overrated, Gary Vee, you know, like, you know, but I think that's the life journey, you know, to me, I never get too high. I never get too low. One of the reasons I've been able to be a public figure for so long is when I post something and somebody puts a goat emoji. I don't think I'm the greatest, which protects me from when somebody says I'm a piece of crap because I don't think I'm a piece of crap. And I worry about what people that actually know me think about me. And I'm enjoying the process. Thank you. It's very nice.

[Michael]

So number one, I think that's right on and I want to take, I want to make a little bit of a shift from the practitioner aspects of social media. I want to talk a little bit about values and perspective.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yes.

[Michael]

I've had the luxury of meeting people that work across a lot of Vayner X. What I've seen consistently and I'm really impressed by is the shared values and culture of everyone who's in your orbit. And so how do you think about maintaining a sense of perspective when we're working across everything you're working across? There's so many demands on your time. And then how do you think about the shared values that I see at least across everyone that's in the Vayner universe? And like, how do you think about the way that you project that out on a day to day basis?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Thank you. Two very simple sentences that I think answer that question. Number one, if you are a leader and you are confused by the following sentence, you have no shot of winning long term. The sentence is employees and anybody that works for you are actually your boss. The second, as a leader you understand you work for everyone, not the other way around is the second that you can actually accomplish something. Humility is the sheer superpower of society. So number one, I think the reason you see what you see and it's not just, you know, VaynerX has eight or ten companies in mind, advertising, home. But then, as you know, there's vaynersports, there's befriends, my Pokemon thing, there's the restaurant group. There's a lot going on and you see it across the board on two things. I work for everyone and number two, I fire every single person that is not a good human being regardless of how much money she or he makes for me. There is no quicker way to fuck everything up than to look the other way at someone who's talented and contributing, but as a piece of shit human, period. And so my success rate is not based on how I hire. My success rate is based on how I promote and how I fire. Hiring my friends is guessing, let there be no. Boy, oh boy was I gifted with intuition and people Skills. It's a real blessing all give all the credit to my parents having sex at the perfect nanosecond. And I have hired atrociously in my 30 year career because I'm too optimistic. There's a little bit too much charity in the way that I hire. It's just who I am. Hiring is guessing, promoting and firing is knowing hire faster because you're not going to figure it out anyway. Fire faster and promote fastest. One of the big mistakes a lot of us make is when we know we have something great on our hands. We wait a year, we wait two years. When I smell or sniff out somebody greet I'm letting the know fast. Often with action on title and or dollars if nothing else by human interaction of like having a dinner and saying you fucking got it. I want you here. Let's get to know each other. The lack of time that people spend with their people. How could you have a relationship if you don't spend time together? The amount of time that bosses don't spend with people is staggering to me. I spend a shocking amount of time on 15 minute check ins, 30 minute drinks. Human interaction. The level again, this industry knows this. I have an agency that's 14 years old. We have almost 100 people that have been at the company for 10 plus years. You know, fucking insane that is in our industry that is earned, that is by giving a shit. That is by actually caring and knowing that continuity and culture and family business vibes build it unstoppable force. And so effort is the answer, my friend.

[Michael]

I think that's right on. I want to talk about your other superpower a little bit that we were talking about yesterday. Timing. So again, you've launched multiple different companies. You've leaned into platforms when the industry wasn't ready for it. How do you think about and how should everyone in this audience think about figuring out when is the right time to make a change? When is the right time to make a shift? When is the right time to take a shot on something that might not be common knowledge or an expected play at a given point in time.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

We ironically we've talked about both of the answers to this question. Number one, when you have humility and don't think you know anything and think the customer is always right at scale, scale, it's the easiest thing to do all time. Six years ago when I was yelling about TikTok and now I get a lot of flowers for that. That wasn't a genius. That already happened. When people give me a lot of like you know, I'll do a podcast. Like Gary, you're, you see around corners, you're Nostradamus, you're this. I'm like, no, I'm not. I'm just paying attention, right? Like Saturn. Let's do a real one right now in the us Saturn app. What is Saturn app? Most people don't know it. Definitely not in Canada. It's a U.S. thing that's really happening. It's a calendar app for high school kids. In the US they did a very weird 80% of high schools have this very weird model where you're on a five day cycle. I don't know if they have it in Canada too. It's not like Monday, Tuesday, Tuesday could be day three. It's confusing. So they built an app to make it easier for high school kids that looks like a Google calendar and has now penetrated 80% of high schools in America. 80% of 14 to 18 year olds are on an app. Then they miraculously add chat on top of the calendar. Go fucking figure. Smart fucking move. There's 80% of high school kids 14 to 18 right now. As I sit here and bamf on this app, when I start talking about it in this exact meta moment and in three years when it becomes the first thing since Snapchat and TikTok to actually be a thing. It wasn't that I saw around corners, it's that I'm paying attention every day and it's already happened. You just don't know about it. Meaning people at my level are living in penthouses, not playing in the dirt. Michael. I'm in the fucking dirt. Michael.

[Michael]

Can I go to the penthouse?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

You can. You so can, brother. Because what I believe is the penthouse sounds nice, but if you love the fucking game, the penthouse is boring. So you know, what's my timing about? It's about humility and listening. Like I'm just paying attention to what consumers do all the time. Live social shopping, like whatnot is crushing. TikTok shop is crushing. It's not like, of course live social shopping is going to be the buzzword next year. It's happened. I'm not guessing. I've been watching it for six, I've been watching whatnot for four years. Timing is about watching everything, knowing when things are premature and then getting loud when they're ready. When everybody was like, we need to build metaverses. When you know, obviously I'm very bullish on NFTs. I'm blockchain stuff. But everyone's. All my clients are like, we need to build a metaverse. We have this pitch. We need to build like a store in the metaverse for a million dollars. I'm like, there's 14 fucking people in the metaverse. But do I think I'm going to build a virtual store in my career? You're damn right. I think. I just don't know when. So you watch and then when you see there's enough tipping point that there's enough scale that comes. Companies of this size would actually give a crap, you go. And so timing has been about paying attention. I don't guess. I don't. I'm not a futurist. I don't love technology. Here's an interesting one. I don't give a shit about social media. A fuck. Could care less. Cannot wait to make videos in seven or eight years saying you marketers are doing social media with the. What the fuck's wrong with you? I care about the truth of the data. I don't like GRPs. They're fake as fuck. We are obsessed in our industry on potential reach. Not actualized reach. We love reach. I love reach. I want to reach 8 billion people. I wish this talk right now was reaching all 8 billion people on earth. I like reach. I like real reach. We buy fake reach. Yes. Thank you, man. It's very. We have to get out of this cycle. There's a re. And by the way, I say this to my agency friends because I don't think about like competition. Like, I cheer for other agencies. I like when they win. I even like when they beat us and things I love if you are good and this is kid. Let me. How old are you? 11. 11, perfect. Let me tell you something that I hope you remember your whole life. If you're good enough, nobody's taking anything away from you. The reason I cheer for other agencies is because if they were good enough to get the win, they deserved it. They want on merit. Nobody's taking out of my pocket what I'm saying about potential reach and commercials and us. I'm trying to help immediately agencies that. Because I view them as like we're part of the same collective team. I know we compete, but I don't see it that way. What I do see is if we continue to suck, everything's going to go in house. So, like, what are we doing here? We need to bring value. I know a lot of you sell shit you don't believe in and that breaks my heart. I don't judge you. You have mortgages, you have families. Shit changed. I don't Judge, no judgment. But I know it's true. I know that if that money was your family business's money, you wouldn't spend it that way to make the business grow. I have the luxury of living that life. I want it for more people. And so, you know, that's just how I see it, Mike.

[Michael]

Yeah. So I want to. I want to actually dig into that a little bit more. You are independent. You've built an incredibly successful enterprise that allows you to make a phone call and say, saturn, go. And the team goes, ish.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

This is going to really make the owners laugh. I basically think that a lot of people now listen to my content and advice. Competitors, even. I get emails all the time, like, thanks, Gary. We beat you on this pitch by listening to this video. I'm like, motherfucker. You know, I would argue as I sit here today with all the lovely things that have happened to me, the crew that's least listening to me is my own fucking company. Mike. It's just like, you know, it's like parents, right? Like, you just know, like, the answer is ish. My company's very good. It's like anything else you take for granted. All of you right now are taking for granted your best relationship. When I think about my parents, my mom is such a fucking angel and the greatest woman on earth, and my dad is not as much, but he's fucking epic. I love my pops, but lately I'm like, fuck, I'm playing this wrong. I'm giving so much energy to my dad's emotional needs, and I'm taking my mom for granted. I'm on the receiving end of getting taken for granted because of how I roll. And I think we take a lot of things for granted. And I promise you, my company does that right to my fucking face, and it makes me laugh. But anyway, go ahead.

[Michael]

I do think there are probably a lot of moms in this audience that feel taken for granted 100%. So the question I was going to ask is, if you're sitting in a role in an organization where you can't dictate transformation, or you're sitting in a senior role, but it's a larger organization where it's harder to dictate transformation, what advice would you give for how to really drive that innovation, drive that point of view towards taking chances that you might not be able to otherwise by.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Respectfully communicating your actual point of view instead of conforming to what you think everyone wants to hear. And I'm saying that for a very specific reason. I'm doing that for you personally in the seats right now because your career will advance based on your historical correctness or incorrectness. There are many people right now saying things or agreeing to things in boardrooms that they know are not right. And unfortunately they're doing it because they think that's what will work currently in the business. And meanwhile, as the business gets challenged by doing the wrong things, you're going to be the fall guy and fall gal for it. Let me tell you something very real because I've lived this life a lot. It is much more fun to die on your own sword than to die on someone else's. My friends, there's a lot of marketing transformation going on. You know it. You may know that your company can't change it. You may know your CEO's best friends with the agency holding company guy or gal, and they're going to run TV anyway or programmatic digital, whatever it is, but mentioning it in the room. What about like, how about this brand that only lives on TikTok that's taken up a ton of our market share? How about that? Like talking truth. People are listening and it will set you up. Please don't keep your mouth shut when you have a true belief. Don't speak out of your ass. Don't talk about things you don't know. But if you know, the answer is to respectfully communicate it. And then if nothing happens and you want to be part of transformation, I have tremendous news. If you don't like how the company's rolling, quit. Be accountable. You're unhappy that nobody listens to you. Go find someplace that will. Or know that you're being there for another three years because you're paying off something or something's important and shut your fucking mouth. Complaining is for losers. Complaining is for losers. Complaining is for losers. If you're a complainer, that's okay. DNA, parenting, luck of the draw. If you're a complainer, I just have a fun game for you to play. The next couple weeks, pay very close attention to who listens to your complaining. It's only going to be two groups of people. The people that love you so much, they're like it, I'll listen or other losing complaining humans. Audit your circles, friends. Audit your circle.

[Michael]

And I have proof because my mom's the only one who listens to my so I know we're close to on time. One thing I do want to make sure we talk about is one of the things that I love about you, love about working with you, is your passion and you've talked about it. We talked about it at dinner last night. One of the things that you said was most important for your children is following their passion.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah.

[Michael]

For everyone in this audience as they think about what they're working on, what they're doing from a career perspective, from a life perspective. Like, any advice on how to truly follow your passion?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Michael and I were talking about, like, you know, I came from zero. I grew up in a studio apartment a fourth of the size of the stage with six other family members. And we're talking about, like making it and having children that are, you know, like I said to Michael, like, I was 16 before I ever went to a New York Knicks game. And we sat in the last row and I said, you can't fake environment. You're not going to get kids that are fortunate to have the same level. You just can't. You can't fake environment. But what you can focus on is being a good human being. And like, there are many controllable things. Who you are born into is nothing we could control, you know. And so passion's important to me. And the reason it's important to me is the following. I don't know if you know this, but you were not born for a very long time. Like, the world's been around for minute. I also don't know if you are aware of this, but when you die, you're fucking dead. So we're like here, all of us, right now, this is it. And it's long and it's short. And no matter how much work life balance you are aspiring for right now, I think we can all agree work takes up a lot of time in your life. You subtract sleeping and it gets really weird how many hours are in it. The thought of not being accountable enough to realize that if you are miserable at it, if you are sitting here right now and let's go one to 10 and I do live 11. I do. And it's the great blessing of my life. Those, you know, those bullshit motivational quotes of like, if you love it, you never. It's real. Like, I'd rather go to work. If you knew how excited I was to get out of here right now and fly for the next six hours and do work email. It would probably make you feel sad for me, but I'm fucking pumped. I like it. I would literally actually it's fun to say right here. It's usually my go to on this, but this is perfect. I would literally rather have a business meeting than go fucking skiing. Yeah, sorry, motherfuckers I don't like skiing. Like, I don't. I don't like it. But I'd rather watch a New York jets game than work, which is why I do it. Like, I just want you to like it a little more because I think you'll regret it. Here is an incredible blessing that I recommend everyone. Donating your time is one of the great things a human being can do. It will fill your fucking soul in a way that would stun you. Most of us don't do it because especially a room that's this incredible lot of work. What you got left is you're trying to. Family. I get it. If you can donate five hours to a retirement home. 5. And you have conversations with people in their 80s and 90s who are not grandparents, I believe it could have a substantial impact on your life. What you will see up close and personal is the scariest thing on earth, Michael. Regret. This scariest thing on earth is regret. Regret when you don't have a lot of time left is quadruple scary. I believe that you would be doing a mitzvah and a great gift by contributing. I promise you, the people in that home would be so happy to talk to somebody. You will be doing such a nice gesture, but it will not be selfless, my friends. It will be selfish because you will walk out of there. And I believe that will be the drug or the infusion for you to really consider what seems like a tough decision. And you know what sucks, Michael? The tough decision decision of quitting a job you hate because it pays you more can often be offset by people spending less money on dumb shit. Like, maybe, you know, if you're really that unhappy. I'm not talking. If you're in this crowd right now, in the middle, like, you're like, I'm chill. That's fine. Obviously, if you're not good or great, of course. But if you're deeply unhappy, taking $50,000 less, $30,000 dollars less only has to be offset by silly things we all do. You know, like buying $7 coffees twice a day. Like, so many people are signed up to like six streaming services, but only watch two, but are getting banged on for the monthly fee. You know, like, there's a lot of things we do that don't matter, but waking up every day and hating your job, that fucking matters. And so I ask you to start strategizing how to fix it, because you will regret it. And I say, again, I'm sorry. I don't mean like, rah, rah, Rah, go quit. I get it. You have a real life. I say starting the process. I'll give you an example. Action. You can start posting on LinkedIn and making videos about your thoughts on the macro market. What if someone that is important in hiring sees that and DMs you and says are you looking for a job? You can take action that gives you leverage to create an outcome you want. That is the great gift of this. In 1979, our parents couldn't do that. You can literally go home and make a video every single day, every single week about thoughts you see in your profession, of your social commentating on it. And if it's good and smart, it will lead to opportunities that let you get out of what you you're in. Please do not just accept that it's the way that it is. That is not true.

[Michael]

Couldn't be better said. Although. And I know the NFL is here. I'd rather do anything than watch the New York. Anything, brother.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I'm starting to get there, man. 42 years of this misery in even for the most fucking optimistic fucker on earth. I'm starting to fucking bend, Michael. It's rough out here for us. Oh man.

[Michael]

Giants will take you. Yeah, we'll take you.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I'm sad, man.

[Michael]

But hey guys, thank you so much. Gary, thank you so much.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Thank you everybody. Really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. I wish you well. Thank you. Thank you. It's very sweet. Thank you.