The Future of Branding & Growth Strategies | Eric Siu

Summary

Podcast Title: The GaryVee Audio Experience
Host/Author: Gary Vaynerchuk
Episode: The Future of Branding & Growth Strategies | Eric Siu
Release Date: January 31, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The GaryVee Audio Experience, Gary Vaynerchuk engages in a deep and multifaceted discussion with his co-hosts, addressing a variety of topics ranging from his ambitious plans to acquire the New York Jets to insights on entrepreneurship, marketing strategies, talent identification, and the future of branding. The conversation is rich with personal anecdotes, strategic business insights, and motivational advice aimed at aspiring entrepreneurs and business leaders.

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1. Gary’s Ambitious Goal: Buying the New York Jets

[00:08]
Gary opens the discussion by revealing his long-held aspiration to purchase the New York Jets. He outlines his strategy, which involves building multiple successful businesses that can generate the necessary capital. Gary emphasizes the importance of creating value through his existing ventures, Vayner X and Vee Friends, and eventually establishing a private equity firm to facilitate the acquisition.

Gary Vaynerchuk: “If I could build the best marketing death star, it would provide the ultimate leverage in the business world.” [00:15]

Key Points:

• Vayner X: The holding company that includes VaynerMedia and other marketing entities.
• Vee Friends: An intellectual property company initiated as an NFT project.
• Private Equity Vision: Gary aims to create a private equity firm focused not just on operational efficiency but also on hyper-growth of acquired businesses.

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2. Personal Journey and Early Entrepreneurship

[03:12]
Gary delves into his childhood aspirations and entrepreneurial beginnings. From dreaming of sports in his early grades to shifting his focus to business through lemonade stands and car washing, he highlights the foundational experiences that shaped his entrepreneurial spirit.

Gary Vaynerchuk: “By third grade, I realized I wasn’t going to play sports professionally anymore... by fourth grade, I was a businessman.” [03:15]

Key Points:

• Early Business Ventures: Lemonade stands, car washes, and baseball card trading.
• Family Influence: Working in his father’s liquor store from ages 22 to 34, building the business without immediate financial rewards.
• Realization of Passion: Transitioning from family business to his own ventures at 34, driven by a desire to create and innovate.

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3. Building Vayner X and the Role of Private Equity

[06:00]
Gary discusses the evolution of Vayner X and his fascination with private equity. He contrasts private equity firms' operational strengths with their weaknesses in marketing, highlighting his belief that superior marketing can significantly impact the success of acquired companies.

Gary Vaynerchuk: “I have some nice relationships with the top guys and gals in private equity, and what I learned is they understand the Excel sheet of it all, but marketing is a black hole for all of them.” [00:15]

Key Points:

• Operational Excellence vs. Marketing Deficiency: Private equity firms excel in operations but often neglect marketing.
• Strategic Advantage: Gary aims to leverage his marketing expertise to enhance the performance of acquired businesses.
• Long-Term Vision: By 48, Gary plans to have established a robust private equity firm capable of making strategic acquisitions like the Jets.

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4. Lessons from the Family Business

[05:59]
Reflecting on his tenure working at his father’s liquor store, Gary shares valuable lessons about resilience, hard work, and the emotional bonds that come with family business dynamics. He emphasizes that despite initial resentment, his experience was ultimately rewarding and instrumental in his personal and professional growth.

Gary Vaynerchuk: “I already know I'm in a better place to be able to be like, hey, hey, hey, this is not working. But real talk, fix it.” [06:32]

Key Points:

• Resilience Through Hardship: Working six to seven days a week without significant financial rewards taught Gary invaluable lessons.
• Emotional Growth: Building the family business strengthened his relationships and emotional intelligence.
• No Regret: Despite early resentment, Gary views his family business experience as the best chapter of his career.

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5. Identifying Talent and Effective Hiring Practices

[20:20]
Gary explores his approach to talent identification and hiring, emphasizing the importance of intuition and hands-on observation over traditional methods like resumes and reference checks. He shares anecdotes about recognizing potential in team members through direct engagement and performance over time.

Gary Vaynerchuk: “I think once you cross the chasm with me that I trust you, you have unlimited carte blanche.” [21:38]

Key Points:

• Intuitive Hiring: Trusting gut feelings and observing employees in action rather than relying solely on resumes.
• Performance Over Time: Realizing talent through six months of performance rather than initial hires.
• Promoting and Firing: Differentiating between the guessing involved in hiring and the knowledge required for promoting and firing.

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6. Marketing Strategies: The Power of LinkedIn

[25:21]
Gary provides a deep dive into effective marketing strategies for businesses in crowded markets, particularly highlighting LinkedIn's potential for B2B SaaS companies. He critiques conventional marketing approaches of Fortune 500 companies and underscores the importance of tailored, high-value creative content.

Gary Vaynerchuk: “For a SaaS business, knowing how to spend media dollars on LinkedIn against creative that will actually get someone who's a CIO or a CFO to buy that SaaS product... that is where his growth is.” [25:21]

Key Points:

• LinkedIn Dominance: Essential platform for B2B marketing, especially for SaaS businesses.
• Creative Excellence: Importance of high-quality, targeted ad creatives to engage decision-makers.
• Critique of Traditional Advertising: Fortune 500 companies often misallocate budgets on ineffective strategies like expensive TV commercials.

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7. Content Creation and Its Impact on Business Growth

[48:16]
Gary shares personal success stories where strategic content creation led to significant business opportunities. He emphasizes the role of authentic, value-driven content in building a personal brand and attracting lucrative deals.

Gary Vaynerchuk: “That single piece of content and my keynote that changed my career... 99.9% of the springboard that led to everything you're looking at.” [55:57]

Key Points:

• Influential Content: Creating impactful content can lead to unforeseen opportunities and partnerships.
• Personal Branding: Building a strong personal brand through consistent, meaningful content.
• Case Study: Gary’s viral video in 2007 led to a pivotal investment and relationship with Mark Zuckerberg.

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8. Veefriends and the Future of NFTs

[66:32]
Gary discusses his venture, Veefriends, positioning it as a blend of intellectual property and collectible digital assets. He envisions Veefriends as a long-term investment with potential for significant collectability, drawing parallels to iconic brands like Pokémon and Sesame Street.

Gary Vaynerchuk: “Veefriends is my intellectual property... I am building something akin to Marvel or Pokémon.” [66:32]

Key Points:

• Concept and Design: Veefriends combines educational elements with collectible aspects, aiming to create a beloved brand.
• Market Positioning: Positioned as a sustainable, long-term collectible similar to established franchises.
• Future Vision: Anticipates Veefriends to become a staple in the NFT space, leveraging blockchain for expanded opportunities.

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9. Philosophy on Work and Happiness

[62:15]
Gary elaborates on his philosophy regarding work-life balance, emphasizing that working hard is only fulfilling if it's something one loves. He discourages pursuing excessive work solely for financial gain, advocating instead for alignment between passion and profession.

Gary Vaynerchuk: “Working a lot is only cool if it's a comp. If it starts with you fucking love it.” [62:15]

Key Points:

• Passion-Driven Work: Importance of loving what you do to sustain long hours and maintain happiness.
• Self-Awareness: Understanding one’s own motivations and energy levels in relation to work.
• Critique of Hustle Culture: Rejecting the notion of working excessively without genuine passion, highlighting the detrimental effects on well-being.

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10. The Role of Intuition in Business Decisions

[64:38]
Gary underscores the importance of intuition and gut feelings in making pivotal business decisions. He believes that beyond analytical data, intuition plays a crucial role in identifying opportunities and steering ventures towards success.

Gary Vaynerchuk: “The intuition, the second brain, will be much more understood. No one's talking about it yet.” [65:25]

Key Points:

• Intuitive Decision-Making: Balancing data-driven strategies with gut instincts for effective leadership.
• Historical Bets on Platforms: Examples like investing in Tumblr and early support for TikTok exemplify the power of intuition.
• Future Trends: Anticipates a greater appreciation and understanding of intuitive business strategies in the future.

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Conclusion

Throughout the episode, Gary Vaynerchuk intertwines his personal journey with strategic business insights, offering listeners a comprehensive view of his entrepreneurial mindset. From ambitious goals like acquiring the New York Jets to nuanced discussions on marketing and brand building, Gary provides actionable advice and inspirational narratives. His emphasis on passion-driven work, intuitive decision-making, and the strategic use of emerging platforms like LinkedIn and NFTs offers valuable lessons for entrepreneurs aiming to navigate and excel in today’s competitive business landscape.

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Notable Quotes:

• Gary Vaynerchuk: “If I could build the best marketing death star, it would provide the ultimate leverage in the business world.” [00:15]
• Gary Vaynerchuk: “By third grade, I realized I wasn’t going to play sports professionally anymore... by fourth grade, I was a businessman.” [03:15]
• Gary Vaynerchuk: “Winning a billion requires an obsession with losing.” [59:31]
• Gary Vaynerchuk: “Working a lot is only cool if it's a comp. If it starts with you fucking love it.” [62:15]
• Gary Vaynerchuk: “Veefriends is my intellectual property... I am building something akin to Marvel or Pokémon.” [66:32]

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Timestamp Overview:

• 00:00 - 00:15: Introduction and Gary’s ambition to buy the New York Jets.
• 03:12 - 06:00: Personal journey from childhood to working in the family business.
• 05:59 - 09:38: Lessons learned from building Vayner X and private equity insights.
• 09:38 - 15:03: Structuring deals and the evolving nature of private equity.
• 15:16 - 21:38: Talent identification and hiring practices.
• 20:20 - 29:45: Marketing strategies with a focus on LinkedIn and critique of traditional advertising.
• 29:46 - 38:40: Importance of math and art in marketing; challenges post iOS14.5.
• 38:41 - 50:52: Content creation impact and leveraging personal brand.
• 50:53 - 66:32: Veefriends, NFTs, and future branding strategies.
• 66:33 - 70:15: Final insights on work philosophy, intuition in business, and closing remarks.

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Final Note: This episode serves as a treasure trove of Gary Vaynerchuk’s entrepreneurial wisdom, blending personal experiences with forward-thinking business strategies. Whether you’re an aspiring entrepreneur, a seasoned business leader, or simply seeking motivational insights, Gary’s candid and strategic discussions offer valuable takeaways for navigating the complexities of modern business.

Transcript

[A]

This is the GaryVee audio experience.

[B]

Gary, welcome to the show.

[A]

Thanks for having me.

[B]

So, first question I have, how are you planning on buying the New York jets? How far off are you?

[A]

You know, I think I plan on it by building two meaningful, maybe three meaningful businesses that I own. More so than, let's say, starting a fund or investing. And so the two big ones in my universe are Vayner X, the holding company that holds VaynerMedia and the other several marketing companies in that, and then Vee Friends, the intellectual property company that I started as an NFT project. And I feel like what I've always planned on with Vayner X and VaynerMedia was to build a private equity firm on top of that. So I've always thought about my mission in marketing when I started the company 14 years ago was if I built the best contemporary marketing. I thought in Star wars terms, if I built the best marketing death star in the world, meaning, and I use the death Star, you know, if you're a Star wars nerd, if it pointed its powers against a planet, it could blow up a planet. So if I could build the best marketing death star, and whether I pointed it towards a bottled water or a political campaign or a nonprofit, you know, whatever I pointed it to, if it always did remarkable better than any other way that it could have done that, well, that would be the ultimate leverage in the business world. And private equity is an industry I'm fascinated by because I think it's right and I'm a business nerd. The idea of buying something and doing it better, it's like fun. It's like operations. That's what I love to do. But I've always looked at it as they're good at operating, they're good at cfo, they're good at coo, they're good at CEO, they're good at financial arbitrage. And they're all, and I mean the best ones, the Apollos, the Carlisle's, the blackrocks, they're all really bad at marketing. And I mean really bad. And I have some nice relationship with some of the top guys and gals in the game. And what you learn is they understand the Excel sheet of it all. They understand a lot. But marketing is a black hole for all of them. And that is consistent to what I see in the Fortune 500 ecosystem. I get to work with some of the biggest brands in the world. And it is very clear to me that the way I define marketing in a day trading attention and the way they Define marketing is different. I've been able to find the middle so that we can work with them. But it is my everyday hope that when we work with them that I'm moving them more towards our side of things. Right. I always tell my people at Vayner we get paid to think and strategize for them. Not only run the media and do the creative and all that. And so all that leads to a long rant of the three entities that I think could get me to the kind of business success that could allow me to fulfill my 4th grade dream is vfriends vayner x and this private equity firm that I'm going to build on top of Vayner X. Meaning the talent from Vayner X will come over and we'll be the first private equity firm that creates hyper growth of the businesses we buy, not just operational efficiency. At 48, if I execute that for the next 20 years at 68, I feel like I'm in then in a position to make that kind of play.

[B]

Got it. Did you always see it that way when you first started?

[A]

No, I mean in third grade or fourth grade when I was like I'm going to buy the Jets. I didn't even know what that meant. That was just the time when I realized I wasn't going to enough to play for the jets anymore. By third grade, big shout out to Wakeel Shaw and David Johnson and Rashawn Courtney, the kids that taught me in third and fourth grade that even though I had good hand eye coordination and a lot of passion, I was not born with the God gifted ability to juke out or out athletic, have size, speed or strength to compete at the highest levels. And I was a very practical kid by that time I was like okay. Cause first, second, third grade was I'm gonna play sports when I grow up. Fourth grade was like I'm, I'm a businessman. Because by then lemonade stands, washing cars had come into my life. And then by sixth grade I'm a baseball card ninja. Like I'm collecting and selling and making like real money for sixth grade. 1985 or whatever it was. So back then it was like I didn't even know. And then somewhere in high school I realized I took a U turn. I was going to take a little bit of time before I got to my own goals. I fell in love with, I fell in love with my dad's business, the liquor store and more importantly I started collecting the emotional thoughts of how much I admired, appreciated, was grateful and like deeply Loved my parents. And by the time I was 16, 17, I also had a level of confidence because of the baseball cards in the liquor store, that I had real entrepreneurial skill before it was this thing. Right. How old are you? I'm 37, so I'm enough older that maybe this will hit for you. But, like, you might have been the era where it first started hitting. But, like, when I was growing up, there was no such thing as entrepreneurship. It wasn't cool. There was no Gary Vee's. Right?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So, like, I didn't even know. I thought I was gonna be a businessman my whole life. That's what I said when I got bad grades. But I realized I wanted to do something for my parents. So I realized in high school, I'm gonna go work at my dad's store and I'm gonna build the living shit out of that business for him. And that's what I did from 22 to 34. And that was that. Will, you know, I have a very good feeling that when I'm in my 80s and 90s and I'm doing stuff like this, I will always refer to that as the best chapter of my career. Because unfortunately, if I'm 90, there's a likelihood my dad won't be around at that point. And I will. And I'm saying this for all the kids at home right now that are, let's say, 10 to 20 and feel like they've got it. A lot of those kids want to not go into their family business. And they want to go and, like, be better than their mom or dad or they don't want to deal with the bullshit. I will say with this, I ate a lot of bullshit. I built my dad's business substantially for him. I worked seven, six days a week, constantly. And I made absolutely no money.

[B]

3 to 60 million, right?

[A]

3 to 60 million. 22 to 34 years old, never making $100,000 a year. Like, working every Saturday. Like it was retail. It was. But I sit here today, and Even though at 34, when I started my now career, that people know, no question at 34, there was some level of resentment lingering. It was small. 3, 4, 5% of like, fuck, man. I built this huge business for my dad. I have no money. Especially once I started putting up my head and seeing what the world was.

[B]

Do you have regret?

[A]

Well, this is where I'm going. I think you're gonna like this. And I'm trying to be very transparent here. Cause I think it may inspire someone to join their family business. That wasn't going to before hearing this. And I think they will meet me in 30 years and thank for this. This is where I'm going to your point. At the time, I had resentment. It was small. I'm gonna paint numbers 3, 4%, which wasn't bad. It was more like I would rat my dad and I, I would razz him a little bit and he would, you know, there was a little. I can tell you right now, now there's zero. There's. When I say there's zero regret, I already, at 48, can tell you right to your face, it will be the single best decision I ever made professionally. Now I'm gonna get a little emotional. Those feelings, the fact that I know I have all those stories with my dad, it's insane, bro. I was just with my dad on spring break with my kids. It's just the best. Like, laughing on those inside jokes, joking about the fights. Now, that used to piss me off, and yet I still had my whole life in front of me. Yes, I was 34 and didn't have a whole lot. Yes, I made a remarkably off the charts great decision in that transition of taking my $280,000 in savings and investing in Facebook and Twitter. So, of course that accelerated things. But those two investments still sit in my bank and everything I've lived on and built. I started From0 with VaynerMedia in a conference room like this with my brother from dead scratch at 34, and had plenty of time to get it done. And so what I'm saying, because I know this audience, because I admire this audience, that is of your very successful show, I'm just gonna say it nice and slow. If you're good enough, if you're good enough, if you're great, if you've got it, if you're a player in this game of entrepreneurship, the years that you would go, if you decide to go help your family business expand its restaurant business or dry cleaning business or whatever, you know, classic, often immigrant, but not always immigrant family businesses. If you go and give them 22 to 30, couple things will happen. One, you're gonna learn a lot of shit pretty fast. Cause you're gonna be in the trenches of a family business, not in a corporation where you're not learning any fucking real shit. Two, if you go straight into your game, that's epic. And listen, I know if I was born in this era, I wouldn't have went into my dad's business. The Internet would have been too much. It would have been too seductive. I would have made millions in high school, let alone. So I think that's real life. So I can't sit here and say go into a family business where I know if 15 year old me's listening, he's going direct to fucking consumer. But I do think you'll be happy that you did it. Even if you get into big fights with your family. Remember, if you don't choose money over the love of your family, it will always be okay. It's always ego of the family members that's the issue, not the money. And here's the big one. I was 33 years old. Let me put it that way. I was 33 years old working full time in a liquor wine store. You have time if you're good enough. That was my pit stop to do some mitzvah for my family. And then I've been on my, my actual solo journey since 34 last 14 years. I've been building my world and I'm feeling pretty good about it. Cool.

[B]

One more thing. I want to hang on the jets for one more one. And then I have some. I have a lot of questions, but how do you plan on structuring that deal for the Jets?

[A]

I think because I know that I don't have the financial ability to buy the jets within the next five years, I'm not spending too much time on it. Meaning even in the last couple years, the NFL is now more open to private equity invest. By the time I'm ready, there's gonna be so much change. Like who knows, with the blockchain, with new regulation, with cryptocurrency, with the New World Order, the BRICS alliance, the US Modern Cold War. I mean, I'd like to think I'm thoughtful enough to know that by the time I'm ready to strike in 20 years, the model that I like, the model that might be $5 from every human on earth, or it might be borrowing against all my assets, or I've made the wealth. There's so many ways to, you know. Or I may meet two or three people tomorrow, let alone some people on my mind right now that become my greatest business friends, who also might be diehard Jet fans and they might be my partner group. So there's just, it's too far out for me to know. I just know that since somewhere around 1985 I've wanted to try to buy the Jets. I will say it right now on film. Look at Mark Cuban. I mean, let's say I wanted to buy the Mavericks. I would have never in a million Years thought that Mark Cuban was going to sell it this year.

[B]

No way.

[A]

A year ago I would have been like, okay, Mark's a little bit older than me and boom. I know I'm 100% not in control. When the Johnson family decides to do what they're going to do, I can only control being a great enough businessman and entrepreneur to create the wealth creation that gives me a shot. I spend 100,000% of my energy thinking about that. I don't think about deal structure. I don't think about the day. I don't fantasize about it. And most of all, I don't need to actually accomplish it. And this is the curve ball to the whole thing. What I didn't know for a long time until probably my mid-30s, even before the whole Gary Vee thing started. Somewhere around then I'm like, oh, I don't like need to buy the jets. I need to try to buy the jets. And I would say for a lot of entrepreneurs that are listening, that will probably resonate for the purebred, not the people that use entrepreneurship to make money to hide their insecurities. I mean, for the pure purebred entrepreneurs that will do it for the game. The ones like me that want to wake up at 6am on a Saturday to go garage sailing, because buying something for five bucks and selling it for 80 is fun because you're an entrepreneur to that guy. And girl, I think they'll understand what I'm saying with I don't need to buy the jets. I need to try to buy the jets.

[B]

You're more so talking about it's really respecting or focusing on the journey more so than the end point.

[A]

Yeah. When I first started hearing like it's the journey, not that I'm like, oh. Like, I didn't. It took me a while before, like I'd heard it over and over and again. I'm like, oh, shit. Like, I'm central casting for that.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Even to my love of losing an entrepreneurship. I love the game of entrepreneurship more than I like myself. And what I mean by that is I get a sick, almost twisted joy out of when I lose. Because I'm like, good, because you learn. Yeah. Because I'm like. And even more than that. Yes, of course.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

No, it's like, I don't know if you see this. I'm getting goosebumps. It's like this sick respect for the game that I like when the game fucked me, like I wasn't good enough, somebody else did it Better or I didn't see it. It's like being such a good fighter, actually, I've heard of, I think about great fighters. I gotta talk to some of these MMA guys that I respect. I have to have dinner with one or two of the best of all time and ask them, do you think it's cool that you got knocked out because you enjoy the fact that you understand why you fucked up? Yeah, like, oh, I didn't fucking see his feint. Do you love the game so much that even at your own exp, there's some sort of joy beyond just learning? Some sort of like, ideological respect for the whole thing? I respect entrepreneurship so much. I believe in merit so much. The reason I love the sports so much is either you win or lose. Yeah, right. You play. That's why I love fighting. You fight, someone's gonna win or lose to fight. That's why I wish every boxing and MMA fight could not end in judging, because that's not merit. Just let them fight until somebody loses. Like, that would be the ultimate sport, in my opinion.

[B]

I like that you mentioned that because we, we did an acquisition a couple years ago, didn't work out right, but it's like, but the cleanup of everything and like the, the comeback, right? It's like, oh, that's fucking good, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Good for you.

[A]

No, I, I. As a matter of fact, I learned pretty early in a lot in this latest 14 year journey, I would say. It's funny to hear you say that. Here's a fun thing. I try to think about things I'm not doing well because I want to talk more about things I'm not doing well. But the reality is I'm very calculated, so I don't mess up often in business. But like, two things stand out for me currently. One, when I invest, I've come to realize 50% of the time I'm doing a charity. I'm just writing a check because I.

[B]

Like the person, like an angel check.

[A]

And it's straight charity. And I've got to really fix that because as you can imagine, all of those have gone to zero. Number two, I was very bad at M and A early on. I was doing little deals. It was just fun. Yeah, it was almost like cool and interesting. I can't believe I'm buying. And all of those didn't work either. And I've gotten much better. When I bought PureWow.com for Vayner X, that was already, thank God, the ninth time. The first eight were small enough that I could make it to go to zero. But in a weird way, that made it go to zero, you know, and sometimes you have to just go through those. And hopefully that means by the time I get the private equity land in a decade, I'll be really good because I've learned these silly mistakes now.

[B]

By the way, I have to ask you something. So the thing that you just did with the. You're like, by the way, I have to talk to a couple MMA fighters. So one of my friends, Nick Gray, asked a question on Twitter. He was like, ask Gary Vee about Nick, his relationship. Sky.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Can you talk about that? Is that what you just did there? Is it like he's gonna set it up once he sees this clip or something?

[A]

Nick Dio? Yeah. Yeah. That runs through my. I mean, probably Vayner Sports, so Vayner Sports, my sports agency, we're very fortunate. We rep Cory Sandhagen and Stipe Militant. Like, we're. I'm pretty deep in the MMA world, but let's go to Nick Dio. I think that similar to how I was one of the first people ever to have a drock. Big shout out drock. Dustin's doing it right now. Like, literally follow me around in film. I think what I'm doing with Nick Dio is about to become more normalized. Nick's been with me for a decade in the Vayner X world. I like the way he moves. We speak a similar language. Much like me. He does certain things that people don't understand, which annoys them and things of that nature. But I know where his heart and energy and capability is, and I feel like. And especially in my new state of being more canderous, I had a great talk with him in Miami recently that I think has really set us in a good direction. And Vegas, that has set us in a good direction, even better direction. So I'm proud of myself being more canderous of how to tweak things like this. Cause 90% was perfect. He is a VP of relationships. What that means is Nick, for a living, goes out and represents me in the world with people that we feel are emerging often. I would say 80% emerging, 20% established. Nick is one and Tyler Schmidt would be the other. These are the only people I would feel comfortable that would speak to someone like a Jack Harlow, who have a nice relationship with, who I admire, who I want to help and like, he can represent me at the Kentucky Derby with him.

[B]

Right.

[A]

He can be another liaison of scale. I am so busy, but I love relationships. So I think There's a lot of people who. There's a small group, actually that will understand what I'm about to say. There's some people like myself that both love the relationship thing and love to operate as. You know, some people love to operate and they have no relationships and other people are just relationships and they don't know how to operate.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I do both.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But right now I'm very deep in operations land between veefriends and vaynerx. I'm like in it. Like really in it. Actually, this is a great joy because I'm really not doing stuff. My poor PR team's like, come on, do something like that. Like, I'm just Busy and it's 15 hours a day operating those two businesses.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So he's running around the world. Sometimes I'm DMing someone that I think is cool and they reply, you know, I'm at a nice point in my career right now, especially if they're emerging. A lot of them are like, Gary Vee, what the fuck? Is this real? I'm like, I make a video, it's really me. Let me connect you with Nick Dio or hit up Zach Owens, part of that team as well, who's in the office helping me look and watch the current world. I have an obsession with the emerging talent. I love the idea of like who I was at 23 and I wish there was a 48 year old version of me who would have DMed me and be like, I see you. It would have meant the. Yeah, it would have meant the world to me. And by the way, of those people that I will speak to on DM and scale with Nick and Tyler and Zach and Ashley and this team that I'm building, you know, 10% of them are gonna go on to be really important peeps and it's gonna be nice to be there from day one. 10% of them will go on to become great friends and. Or really, really great acquaintances. 20% of them will be fun to just see at the cliche formula One Vegas or a conference. And just like, it's nice. I'm pumped that now that we have this, the next time I see you at an airport, a conference, you know, I really enjoy relationships and 60% will be ones and dones or never happen. That's okay. But I value that. And so I'm allocating resources with people I genuinely deeply trust because you can imagine that's the most important thing if you have a human represent you. And that's what I'm focused on.

[B]

I love that. So it sounds like Nick is. If I were to simplify this, he's kind of your chief of staff for relationships. He's a duplicate version of that.

[A]

That would be a way you could think about it. For sure. He's just an inner circle human. That I feel when I tell you I don't check in on him, of course, occasionally like, yo, what's up? Like. Or is anything cool going on? Like, but like, I know he's sitting right now either having lunch with someone. I mean, look, it's a dream fucking job. I make fun of him all the time. Like, dude, you got the cling and you have to have incredible trust. I think a lot of people listening to me right now would be like, wait a minute. But then Nick's gonna leave and take all those relationships. And that may or may not be true. But you know, don't forget Nick has been with me for so long that, like, that would only be true if I can't deliver for him, not the reverse. And even if he wanted to do something for himself, that would make me happy.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it's all fine. I think the world is abundant. So, yeah, I really. I really am excited about it and I think more people should do it.

[B]

I think one thing that's underrated from my perspective with you is you're a pretty good identifier of talent. And so let's use a Raghav story as an example. So Raghav, when he first applied to work at my company, he wrote an 8,000 word blog post for. As an intern. Right. And it's what he said finally, for.

[A]

Everyone listening, this is pre chatgpt. So he wrote it?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, he actually wrote it. And then when he said he was going to you, I was like. I was like, I kind of want to know the story about how you identified him and how you identify talent in general.

[A]

You know, one thing that's great about me is I don't want to say shit when I don't like, know or don't like talking about real talk. And he's such a key dog in my world and just talking to him today and hung up with him this week, obviously with the audiobook. And he's been my writing partner in the last two books I've written. The answer is I don't feel. It's a little hazy to me. I feel as though Sid or Andy Dustin, do you know, I'm not sure. Yeah, I think Andy. Andy Craniak, who led my content team, who's now the President of veefriends. I'm 98% sure that he hired Raghav. And the way it works in that world is similar to. And you're starting to get a sense of how I roll. Once you cross the chasm with me that I trust you, you have unlimited carte blanche. And then I watch it. So with Raghav, it was. He was hired just like many other people were hired. But then I sensed month six, and I'm like, okay, this kid's got something. So I'm not necessarily upfront. Right. So I didn't realize it from the interview process. I realized it because I'm not good at that anyway.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm actually not. I'm so optimistic, brother, that I think everyone's gonna be awesome. Yeah, I'm a little. Yeah, I've got that trait. Too much optimism. So my critical thinking on interviewing is sometimes flawed, but I'm remarkable once I can watch you on the field. Right. So I have no idea by resume, and I mean none. But I definitely know six months in, if I watch. And with him, it was just very clear. He was very talented.

[B]

And it's. It's. I think for those watching, it seems like you either have it or you don't in this situation. Like, it's a gut thing.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And I think, like, I think when you're. When you're hiring, you're fully guessing.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Real talk.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

For anybody who operates a company, they know what is not guessing is promoting and firing. Hiring is guessing. Promoting and firing is knowing.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. And. And I think that that is something I've done well with promoting. I've done worse with firing. Because Gary Vee, the character on podcasts and on stage, epic at Candor. Gary Vaynerchuk, the executive, is too much of a bleeding heart. Back to charity investing. And I've been overly nice, but that used to be my excuse. What the reality was was I don't like the candor and the conflict of telling someone that I subjectively think they stink at their job. And I also thought it instilled. This was my big mistake, actually. Let me go deeper. The people that. I hope this helps. I thought it would instill fear. Hey, Dustin, I don't think you're a good manager. You're too snarky today. I would think, like, Dustin's gonna walk out of that meeting being like, fuck, I'm gonna get fired and start like. And that was never. Like, I didn't know how to get to that place. I've gotten a Lot better at sitting down with people and being able to tell them, hey, I'm concerned about these things. But real talk, and I think I've also earned a little bit where I think this will land better. Cause I was a kid coming up a liquor store at that. I think I'm in a better place to be able to be like, hey, hey, hey, this is not working. But real talk, fix it. Because this is working great and this is working great and we just tweak this and we're like fucking cruising. So I've struggled with that and you know, so. But I can tell you that promoting and firing is knowing. Hiring is guessing. And I think people waste too much time hiring. I think they think. I think too many people have pride. I think a lot of people don't fire people because they don't want to admit they were wrong in a great place with it. Because I think I'm wrong every time somebody starts. And what I mean by that is I know that. I don't know. I know that we hired him. Especially if I make the call with a direct report that I feel like it could happen. But I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, you really don't know till like 612 months in.

[A]

And as if I'm going to listen to their fucking. Their what is it on a resume. I don't even fucking references. Like I don't even fucking know the term. That's how much that shit. Like, oh, yes, I'm going to call the three people you told ahead of time to say that you were epic that you found in the world. Yeah, I mean, I've been bad at references. I apologize to everybody who's listening or watching. If I've ever been a reference, I can promise you I have sugar coated the fuck out of it.

[C]

Right?

[A]

Because I usually care more about the person than I do about the business. That I don't know about that. Just real fucking talk.

[B]

Did you know that Amazon doesn't do reference checks for that reason?

[A]

Because Jeff Bezos is smart. Yeah, look, real talk, I don't either neither. We don't really. Yeah, some of my mid tier managers do it because they think it's the right thing to do. It's only because I haven't done a good job explaining it. But like we don't. I don't give a fuck. I don't believe it for shit.

[B]

I'm with you too. I want to come back to this in a second, but I want to talk about the book too. So like, look, day trading attention, right? So Actually, I got a good question. So I messaged my buddy this morning. So he has a $400 million a year SaaS, right? And he's like, okay, ask Gary here, I'm going to repeat it. Don't give me the cliche answer. For businesses looking to win in crowded markets, what are the marketing tactics they should run today?

[A]

That's a great question. For him, it's 100% LinkedIn. But here's the problem. That's not that that's a cliche answer. It's a very simple answer. But let me break it down for him. Do I believe that if that buddy who has a $400 million SaaS business, which is enormous, if he has a SaaS business, his organization is a sales organization?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You can't get the 400 million in SaaS without having sales DNA, which means it's in direct conflict to how I see the world. Meaning I think being in sales means you're just bad at marketing. I like it much better than when it comes to you, than when you have to go sell it. Nike doesn't direct market to me. I go and seek it out. Anybody listening about relationships? It's a lot better when it's coming to you than when you're chasing it. That's just the way the world works. So what I would say to that kind of business, what excites me, why I started VaynerMedia, why I want to do private equity, is I would look at his business potentially to buy it one day. That's what I hope to be in that level 97 out of 100 times. Which is why I think I have the career I have right this second. I'm pretty sure that I see $200 million in top line growth for your buddy that he can't see 97. I don't, I don't know him. I can tell you right now the non cliche answer to that answer is it's all in LinkedIn. Now that would be like me telling you if you want to make a lot of money and have a lot of fun and live an epic life, become a professional NBA all star basketball player. Yeah, right. Okay, Gary, thank you for telling me that I'm a B2B business and SaaS and I should do LinkedIn. No shit, Sherlock. So what this book tried to attack and where I'm going to your buddy is if he understood and his team understood that if they were making 30 to 40 pieces of creative a day on LinkedIn and understood that the CPMs that his math Team is saying Gary's full of shit when they listen to this podcast because they're mad at the CPM costs on LinkedIn. Cause unlike every other platform, they have an artificial high floor. So unlike all the other platforms that start at 5 or 10 or 15, you know, minimal cents, I think last time I checked, which is a while ago, LinkedIn starts at 2 bucks, which fucks up everyone. The problem is, for a SaaS business, it doesn't matter that TikTok might be $0.03. You're not gonna fucking sell shit on LinkedIn is high value stuff. When you go to a private club that serves high end food and wine, it's more expensive than fucking McDonald's. So for a SaaS business, on fucking March 29, 2024, in this exact nanosecond, knowing how to spend media dollars on LinkedIn against creative that will actually get someone who's a CIO or a CFO or a decision maker to buy that SaaS product, knowing how to do the first second of the video, the thumbnail, the copy, the remarketing, knowing the perfect execution, just like training for 18 years and being God gifted in talent and knowing how to play basketball, that is where his growth is. And I mean period, end of story. Aka $400 million, aka millions of dollars spent on LinkedIn between media and creative. But it would work.

[B]

Got it. So, and by the way, when you say 40 pieces, you're not saying 40 posts per day, you're saying 40 ad creatives.

[A]

Cor. You could do four to seven of those organically. You could do some of them targeted as paid media, which is a dark post in the old terminology that people know that you would do against employees of a certain company, get that quant and qual feedback. The biggest thing that's missing, especially from this audience, affiliate marketing, math. Like really good operators, the math crowd, which is a lot of this crowd that's listening. The thing that's missing for them is the value of the art without any direct attribution. Yes, it's killing them.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The reason I'm different than a lot of people is I understand the value of math and art. And I'm willing to risk a lot of money to find the seven out of 8,000 behaviors in the art side that make the whole thing go right. And you know this. That's what's killing everyone. And they all got fucked in iOS14.5 and they're gonna continue to get fucked brand over everything. Now, that doesn't mean now, to the credit of a lot of the Kids that are listening, you know why Fortune 500 land sucks their brand over everything. But they're delusional brand.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

They're like, let's make a fucking video for $800,000 and run it on fucking NBC. And you fucking crazies. Are you nuts? Running a television commercial campaign leading strategy like the biggest brands in the world do. It is insane how much money. Coca Cola and BMW and fucking all of them like Nike, they are throwing beautiful money in the trash. Garbage, garbage. They're getting murdered. And it's happening right in front of our faces and no one's seeing it. Which is why I've never been more excited. The reason I wrote Day Trading attention is for every marketing company in the world to pass it on to every employee for legacy. I know how right this book is going to end up being because I'm writing it at the perfect time. The COVID is purple. That cover is not because I'm a Lakers fan.

[B]

Why not? I'm just kidding.

[A]

Because I'm a Knicks fan. The cover's purple because I think in terms of the American and UK political systems, red and blue. The hardcore math kids that are watching right now, they're either red or too blue. Whichever side you want to pick, they're red. The fucking BMWs and the Nikes and the ConAgra Foods and SC, Johnson, Johnson and Johnson. And they're too blue. Right? And the game is the middle. So I want the ninja kids here that grew up admiring, you know, I want them to understand why they need organic social every day. Every day, every day. And great organic social, no direct attribution, ROI. And I want the Fortune 500 executives that happen to be listening to this. A kudos to you. Kudos to you right now. If you work at a Madison Avenue ad firm or a Fortune 500 and you're a brand manager or CMO, kudos for you to even listening to a show like this because this goes to my concern for them. They're so delusional. So this is the trenches, right? What I want for them is also a organic social media understanding because they're on the opposite side. The youngsters are too mathed out and everything's math, math, math, math, math. And the OG brand catalogs, how brands grow crew. They're in delusional television advertising land and the action's in the middle.

[B]

Can you talk about the TikTok ification of social? I mean, even LinkedIn's getting into it now, correct?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

When I invested In Tumblr in 2008, I called my brother AJ and said, Bro, I know I told you Facebook and Twitter are going to be huge. And they were on their way. I said, but Tumblr is going to be the biggest of them all. And he said, why? And I said, because Facebook and Twitter, you follow people and Tumblr, you follow shit you're interested in. And I was convinced. And Tumblr had a $1.1 billion exit, you know, 12 years ago, which was like 40 billion now. And it was a great exit, but it could have been bigger. And the reason I was so early on, musically, which later became TikTok, was I saw the first time since Tumblr what I've been looking for, which was if you gave people the things they were interested in, constantly, forever, you know, like how life actually works, what you're reading, what you're watching, what you're wearing, it's always mapping you social, I could tell by then, was no longer mapping. If you started on Facebook in the 37 year old set, you were getting stuff still from people you went to college with that you met at one party once and you were like, I don't give a fuck about Ronnie Johnson. And nobody was just like email. Nobody was like fixing their feed. So once I saw musical ly and obviously it started as teenage young girls, predominantly with some guys, I was like, ooh, this is different. And then very quickly understood what was happening, which is why I was so bullish on it at the time. And then obviously emphatic about TikTok once they acquired it and yelling about it in all my channels back in the day. The TikTokification is the reference in the book to now. Every social network is going to go into a place of trying to service you to the best of their AI capabilities, things they think you want to watch, which will keep you on the platform longer, which will allow them to sell more ads and stuff. It makes all the sense in the world. It's how everything in the world works and it is profoundly important. And why I'm glad you asked me that with my rant on the prior rant, which is why organic social media expertise is the battleground of the next five years in marketing. Whoever's best at it will win.

[B]

Let me ask you this. So I debate with my podcast co host Neil all the time on this. So this is Neil Patel and he's like, I'm like, he's like, you know, you're doing all these things. So, you know, was talking to an agency, they get, they help people get like 100 million, 150 million views per month. I talked to one person that's paying for it. I'm like, so what's the ROI of this? Right? She's like, I don't know what the ROI is right now. Right. So we started doing this, it was like, last month. 1213 million. Not bad. Right. But for B2B business. And then Neil's like, dude, I guarantee you all the views you're driving will not drive any business. And I'm like, well, I don't necessarily agree with that. What's your take on it?

[A]

Well, it depends on what the views are. If. If the views are bots and the people you're working with are the worst of the worst characters, then definitely not real views. If they're real views and they're all coming from, like, the Philippines or Afghanistan, then also again, yeah, yeah, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

If they are real people, well, then this is. Look. And Neil's had a great career.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But he's a math boy, right?

[B]

I'm gonna send this to him, you know?

[A]

And now, to his credit, like, with SEO and SEO, like, I, you know, I've known him a long time. He's done a decent job building his brand. Like, he's definitely not like many others that, like, he's actually, to his credit, Let me even show the other side of the pillow. He's done a much better job than most math boys and girls building a brand. I would argue with him of, like, Neil, why do you even have a personal brand? What's the ROI of Neil's personal brand?

[B]

Infinite.

[A]

Correct. So I think Neil's the easy one for you to debate on this one. If Neil believed that, that wouldn't do anything, then we wouldn't know who Neil is. He would be like many of the math kids that sit in the room that nobody's ever met. There are math kids right now making real bank, real money in the fucking behind the scenes in Bosnia and fucking Iran and fucking Kentucky. And they just slay all math and you've never heard of them once in their life. But Neil's got his pretty little face all over the place for a fucking reason. It's because Neil subconsciously or consciously values brand. It's why he built the personal brand. And so I think that's what it is. And I think I'm gonna argue for Neil. I'm sure there's a little bit of brotherly banter in that, because his actions have totally contradicted the way you painted that picture, because he's been very Aggressive in building. Why keynote affiliate summit in 2009?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

If you don't want people to know who the fuck you are.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

We debate this concept of.

[A]

By the way, I bet you Neil and everybody else would agree that purple's the answer. Right? There's nobody who's smart that thinks it's either all art or all math.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The problem is there's a lot of people who think it's all math and all art. And that's the opportunity for us purple people eaters.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You can't. You can't.

[A]

It's.

[B]

There are some people that speak in absolutes, and I think that's. That's a severe disadvantage.

[A]

I do, too. I also am a big fan of the learnings of the art and the math. Math is fun. Like, you can run it. You're like, oh, yeah, this didn't work. $32 CPM. $32 CAC. This one does work. $6 CAC. Right. $4 CPM them. But what people are not as good at. And you read the book or you skimmed it?

[B]

No, I've gone through. I've skimmed it.

[A]

Yeah, of course you're busy. Did you capture the part of PCs post creative strategist? The people that read all the comments and the qualitative feedback or. Not yet, no.

[B]

I've heard you talk about it.

[A]

Cool. So the thing that I'm in love with so obviously math, super easy. Like, here's what you paid, here's the conversion. Cac, ltv, cac, ltv. You know, all that. I am really deep in something called PCs land. Post creative strategy. After creative's out, all the qualitative feedback of the comments at scale. The reason I'm so right about a lot of stuff that emerges is because I read it, but it's not in a fucking recap newsletter from me or you. It's in the earliest days in the trenches, and that shit is fucking gold. And that's the math around the art. So why I love to do things like you're doing is you learn from it, too. I have no IDEA if those 12 million views are going to lead to anything. I also know that One of those 12 million views might be the future acquirer of the entire business.

[B]

Right.

[A]

This is why I like running ads on LinkedIn so much. I can target employees of companies, so that means I can target hedge funds.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you guys go hard on that?

[A]

I'm obsessed with LinkedIn. Of course. Look, VaynerMedia is. Vayner X is a 350 million dollar year eight. We have 2,000 employees. We're a big company. We do a ton of. Yeah, man. I'm like, look, I think the thing that I'm most proud of at 48 and being in this game is I'm a practitioner.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm not in my ivory tower talking about marketing that I used to do and trying to, like, sell books and give keynotes. Like, I'm on. I'm on hands on keyboards. Real talk. Watch this. I literally, literally write the copy to my post.

[B]

How many people are in the room.

[A]

Though, in my team?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I. Raghav used to tell me it was like 50 people or whatever.

[A]

I think we trimmed it down. I think it's like, how much is in here right now? 25.

[B]

Got it. You know, like, just so everyone knows, that's his brand, team channel.

[A]

And the reason it's 25 for 50. A lot of them now are in Vayner X. Yeah. Right. Like, we train on our team and then you figure out who they are. Like, big shout out. Let me give her some roses. Abby's last day is today. Right. She's amazing. She's going into Iwa Nosa Dom, my production company for post production. So, like, Team Gary's a training ground for a lot of people that then go into Vayner X or other things. There's people on befriends, there's people at Vayner Sports. It's like a very all in the family, old school kind of world.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

And actually that brings up a question I had. So it seems like you're still very involved with all the content that you're putting out, period.

[A]

Yeah, the content, the operation. Like, like, like, people ask me all the time. It's so funny when people come to VaynerMedia, bro. Like, people, especially with the Knicks and like, they're like, what is this? Yeah, Like, I'm like, what? They're like, like, people literally sometimes come and visit that we meet in, like, DMs or something, and they think I'm a motivational speaker. They're like, what is this? I'm like, this is VaynerMedia. Like, what is VaynerMedia? I'm like, what? Like, I'm like, you know, but I do understand it because I don't overly. I mean, I promote vaynermedia. Nothing in my Instagram and. And TikTok, and that's where people consume so much of me. So I get it. But, bro, I'm so involved. And. And by the way I'm too involved, but I'm too involved for people that would analyze it if they were trying to help me extract the most money. But I'm trying to extract the most joy.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'm involved because I like being a coo, not just a CEO, and definitely not a chairman who's just going to fucking, you know, our contemporaries who've made it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I just don't. I don't look at a 30 and 40 year old who is just on the party scene and skiing and on yachts and like, speak like, yeah, I, I. By the way, I'm not confused why that's epic.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And especially if they're single, like, there's a lot of. I get it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's not for me. I'm a operator.

[B]

I love that. And you know what's interesting? There's a Zuck video recently where he was talking about how he doesn't believe in delegation, how it's overrated. And then, you know, he doesn't mean that completely, but he's basically saying, you got to be involved.

[A]

Yeah. And I don't. I didn't see that. But what I can tell you for sure, I think at the highest levels, what you get really good at, it's always come natural to me. And I know it's a foundation of my future success, let alone my past success. And I definitely see it in others that I can get close enough to that I'm like, okay, they're doing the same shit. If you focus on the things that are the highest value and you like, not just the highest value and not just what you like that cross section.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Of highest value and you like, well, then it works, right? I love selling.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So if I'm, I'm. If I'm heavily involved in pitching new business now, big shout out to Kaylin McNamara, who's crushing for me now and helping me scale. Sean Walsh, like, it's starting to happen. Amy Bradshaw. But if I get involved in selling, like, it's going to work. We just landed a $20 million client. It's good that I was involved.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And I liked it and it was good. And that's good.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Of course, someone could say, like, gary, what are you like? I mean, I really have very successful people constantly yell at me, like, what the fuck are you doing?

[C]

Right.

[B]

What do they say?

[A]

Well, they just, if they know me really well, they're like, bro, you like, could be making a lot more money. Like, like, why are you running the agency? I'm like, well, it's the operating system. They're like, you could do that now. You could raise $500 million tomorrow. Like, you're. You. Like, I'll give you $10 million for the. I'm like, yeah, but I'm not ready. You're like, what do you mean? I'm like, well, all those people I just gave shout outs to, like, everyone's getting further along. Dustin's stronger today than he was 24 months ago. You know, Like, I'm building people and, like. And I'm young, bro. I'm 48.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

Like. Like, I'm gonna work for the next 40 years minimumly. And, like, I'm pretty sure to the end. And I know I can die tomorrow, but if I don't, which is more likely, I'm gonna fucking build. And so, like, I'm not in a rush. And everyone's like, 25. And it's like, I don't have it figured out. I'm like, nobody 50 has it figured out. What the fuck are you worried about? Yeah, you know?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So what do they say? They're like, look, you can make a lot more money doing different things. I'm like, I'm aware. I know what hedge funds are. I know what private equity is. I know. Like, I get it. I know I could start a. If I want to go for high risk, high reward, I get that. I could try to start a SaaS business or a. Or a social network. I think I could build a huge QSR franchise business. Like, I know there's other things. I like this. Like, you're allowed to make less money for much more joy, even at high levels. Like, when people talk about, like, oh, don't choose money over happiness. They always think of, like, a guy backpacking in fucking Peru. No, no, I'm doing that right now. You're happy, But I'm also making real money. But, like, yes, I'm aware I can make a lot more money, but I don't want to, dick face. I want to be happy. Why would I want to be miserable and make money 100 more million dollars a year? Why would I want to do that?

[B]

Right?

[A]

Who wants to be miserable? This has been my whole rant for the last seven years as my content evolves of like, okay, I understand if you don't have money that you think money is the answer, but I'm telling you right now, I know unlimited. You already know at this young of age in your circles, how many people are deeply hurt and dark and miserable with plenty of money.

[B]

Too many.

[A]

Too Many the end, as many as that are miserable and sad without money. Money is not the variable of happiness. I know everyone who doesn't have it doesn't believe it, and it makes sense to me why. But you will find out if you're lucky enough to get there.

[B]

You know what's interesting? I think back when you started Vayner, I think this. I'm paraphrasing here. So it sounded like Zuck was like, why are you doing an agency?

[A]

Right?

[B]

And then so I talked to the founder of WP Engine yesterday, and as he was talking, it clicked for me, because I realized, obviously, I'm talking to you today. He's like, you know, what works for me is like agency. And what works for other people might be SaaS. And what works for you is like agency. So do that. It's not like it's within your skill set. So do that.

[A]

Yeah. And mine was even weirder. I don't really think that what I do well is agency. I knew I could do it. I knew that I wanted to build the greatest marketing death star of all time.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

I also knew that for me to do that, I needed to go through it. Meaning at that point in my life, I probably could have raised $50 million to start Vayner instead of zero. But I also know I would have not learned. I would have had too much money, and I would have, like, hired all these people from Ogilvy and leo Burnett and Droga5. And I would have gotten nothing but bad behavior, and I would have learned nothing. I needed to eat shit for a decade, to taste everything, to learn everything, to have every fucking battle scar. And now I have all the context. And now everyone's in deep shit.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Now it gets interesting. Now they fucked up and let me figure it out. And so now. And so this goes back to why I always talk about patience. I can promise you right now, I'm really fucking happy I did, right? Because I did. The problem for you, your crew, the crew that's 25 and definitely the crew that's 15, is everyone's just so uncomfortably impatient. Mainly because 90% want to be successful to fill gaps in their soul, right? To prove it to the girl that didn't go out with them or stick it to dad who said they were never gonna make it, or to their teachers that got D's and that. That's like. All my teachers told me I was gonna be a garbage man. I don't know why they picked on garbage men. Cause they make plenty of money. But that's what was the 80s thing of like, you're bad at school. But like, I get why people can build resentment, why people have insecurities, parent dynamics, not being popular in high school. It all makes sense to me. I get it. But it is what people up for maximizing happiness and success.

[B]

It also sounds like not enough people are willing to eat shit. Everyone wants to win, but not enough people are willing to eat shit.

[A]

That's because most people are fake entrepreneurs.

[B]

Entrepreneurs.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like it became cool.

[B]

You made it cool.

[A]

I, I feel like I, I feel like it was going, it was gonna happen and to your point. And thank you. And I, I take that as a compliment. It is. I happen to place at the right time.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like no question. But yeah. And honestly one of the reasons I take on the responsibility to talk about the things I'm talking about now, which is like fix your soul, pay attention to your insecurity. I take on the responsibility that people do think I'm cool and I'm hoping if I spit real shit, it might help someone.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I want to tie in a story so that ties in with this book. So is there anything you can share around a piece of content that you created that led to maybe a seven, eight, nine figure deal?

[A]

Of course. I made a video on my couch in 2007 that said Facebook should worry about Twitter on a flip cam. Remember those? Yep.

[C]

You flip.

[A]

Can you stick it into your laptop? It went viral to 500 of the right people, most of the employees of Facebook at the time, which led to Dave Morin asking me to give a speech at Facebook at the time, which led to Mark Zuckerberg being in the back of the audience, which led to him walking down after I luckily said smart enough stuff that caught his attention. Asking me for dinner when I already had a flight back to New York on the red eye. But I said, of course I'm leaving tomorrow. We had dinner. It started our relationship and my investment in his company from his parents stock a year later. I've never sold a single share of the company. This was four years before its IPO. It IPO'd at $42 a share. It went down to $19 in the first six months. It's now $500 a share. And that was very, very good that I made that piece of content. Not only did that piece of content lead directly to that investment, it also sparked the beginning of me building a brand in Web 2.0. And this goes back to the argument, and I don't think Neil fully believes it that it's not valuable. That single piece of content and my keynote that changed my career. The one at Web2Summit in 2008 where I say smurf it up. And that whole thing that went on Ted's website and got a drillion views is 99.9% of the springboard that led to everything you're looking at, right? Two pieces of content.

[B]

That's why going back to the talk, this talk about idea, total addressable market. So people in private equity, like, I use total addressable market.

[A]

Right, Yeah, I love that.

[B]

So idea tam, it's like, yeah, go. Go wide. Why not go wide? Because people are going to know who you are.

[A]

Well, human, personal, brand TAM is billions of people usually.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So why not?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I aim to be known by every single person on earth before I die. That is my tam.

[B]

Well, speaking of large town too.

[A]

And especially I apologize just to give a little nerd talk with AI voice conversion. We're here. Like, I will be speaking every language and every piece of content I put out next year. Money in the bank. This voice that goes high and gets raspy and does it all with my cadence. That's insane, bro. I'm gonna crush Brazil. My fucking Portuguese. I'm gonna annihilate it. I'm gonna be massive in Germany. I can't wait. Japan, finally. I'm hyped. So, Tam, for personal brands that talk about macro things, it's 8 billion.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Can we talk about some of those macro things? I mean, let's talk about. So your Twitch experience experiment, how's that going right now?

[A]

Great.

[B]

And what is it for those that.

[A]

Don'T know it's going great, even though mathematically it's doing atrocious. I believe that live streaming is in the same place that social media was in 2014, which was in 2014. Everyone knew social was real. Right. It was like, okay, it was real. Like, it wasn't like the fad that people thought. In 07 when I was there, it was seven years later. You weren't walking around in 2014 being like, Facebook could go away tomorrow. No, it fucking happened. But nobody understood what I was still doubling down on, which was, no, no, no, it's about to get way bigger, by the way. It's how I feel right now. Even right now, where people are, like, trying to ban it and demonize it and it's all leading to mental health or it's the biggest thing. I still think right this second that the business world and society are underestimating social. It is the communication pipe of our world. I believe that live streaming right now is where social was in 14. Nobody here or who's paying attention doesn't realize that like Twitch really fucking matters and that clicks and Aiden Ross and Kai Sidan like, like it's happened. But I think most people don't realize what's coming next, which is the live streaming of the mundane and the lucrative nature behind it. So I have a feeling in the next decade that we will wake up in 2034 and there'll be people who are live streaming their hair salon like working in their six seat hair salon in Des Moines, Iowa. That her or him are gonna figure out what I'm saying here in the next year, two or three and are just gonna put a fucking camera and livestream and for whatever reason they are going to become famous. Meaning they will make money on subs, they will make money on advertising, they will make money on Johnny or Susan's hair slime merch. They will speak. They will write a book that influencers like I wrote in 2008 with Crush. It happened. Live streamers of the mundane. Not people that entertain you straight to face while playing video games. No, no. Everything. Lawn I've been using. Mowing your lawn, cooking. I'm obsessed with this one. I think some stay at home mom or dad live streaming their 6am to 8:30 of prepping the whole family for the day is gonna be the show. I just think it's gonna crush. And then they're gonna get a Kellogg cereal deal and a Tropicana orange deal and an oatly milk deal and a fucking frying pan deal. I smell it and so how's it going? I am live streaming in my office at VaynerMedia and Veefriends HQ in Hudson Yards, New York. My table. I am doing literally 12 hours a day straight of meetings. 97% of them are information that can't get into the world. So I am on mute the entire time. So the hundred or so people that watched me sitting in my office for 12 straight hours at Mute have built their own little community. Talking. I try to unmute. Dustin did a great thing for me and added an unmute counter. So that inspires me to unmute a little bit more. I'm figuring it out. I'm doing it because I like to be a practitioner. I just wanna taste it. I know that I'm not doing it in a way that can really go crazy like my other stuff. Cause I'm not making for it. I Wish I was 2007, Gary and I could just be with them for 12 hours. Cause I have a funny feeling I would have ended up in a really good spot, right? That's not where I'm at. I'm trying to hack. I'm hoping that something good will come to mind at some point. I'm excited about taking it on the road with me. Like, that's something I'm thinking about as I try to push myself to get on the road a little bit more again. I brought it up 10 times. I'm so in operations mode. I'm literally sitting at a fucking desk for 12 hours a day, 80% of the time right now. So it's not the most compelling, but there is a wild, almost like entrepreneurial ASMR with it. Like, it's been really interesting to watch a lot of people. As a matter of fact, everybody who's listening right now, Twitch tv. Garyvee, if you come in, say you came from here because I want to give love to him. Like, come and check it out. What I'm noticing is for a lot of beginners or even people in the middle, kind of like what DailyVee was when I put it out where people are like, oh, he's busy, busy. There's something that is like inspiring to a lot of people. Like, oh fuck, man. Is he just like, does he go to the bathroom like you said, right? Dust, does he go to the bathroom? Like, why is he not taking line? And then of course the people that have been watching from the beginning, last couple weeks, they're like, no, he's a fucking robot. And what it does, I think. And it would have, by the way, I understand it again, 16 year old me who one day dreams to be a great businessman. I do a lot of stuff for 15 year old me. I would have loved to come home from after school, put that on if I looked up to Gary Vee and be like, oh shit, that's what it takes. It's not the fucking. Like, you know, it's not private planes, it's not fucking the watches.

[B]

Oh shit, I better get to work.

[A]

And by the way, check this out. That will then help them. Say, am I up for that or should I do something? It's not that I want them to be me. I want them to use me as a proxy to figure out if there's valuable for them. I have no interest in people working 15 hours a day unless they're like me, which is it is their favorite thing to do in the world. For me, it is my hobby. My profession is my hobby. And if that's not you, then you should only work seven hours a day. When I don't do things I like, I want to do them for one minute a day. Day. And if you don't like your job, you shouldn't work 10 hours a day. That sounds miserable. That's why I got D's and F's. That's why I don't like going to the gym. That's why I don't hang pictures on the wall. Because I don't like handyman.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Other people can't wait for tomorrow. It's a Friday. As we're recording this to do work around the house. They enjoy it. It's their therapy. It's their ASMR that I would rather rip my arm off than paint a wall.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Everyone's different.

[B]

You know what's heavily underrated, too? It's as you're talking about. You don't want to do these things. It's if you're an entrepreneur, designing the organization around your strengths.

[A]

Oh, that's the only way I've built all my companies.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

The first thing I do every time I build a company is surround people with strengths. And the things that I don't like to do that are most important. We hired a head of legal, Mark Yudkin, who's now my coo. It's my fucking brother. We hired him way too early. We couldn't afford him. We fuck. I went for it. I was like, fuck it. We're gonna need this. And I give a. I'm not reading a fucking contract or you fucking mind.

[B]

Right. You know, so I'm with you, you know?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, you said this on a podcast years ago. I think someone asked you just straight up, how much money do you make, Gary?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And then at the time, it was like 5 million bucks or whatever. Like, how much? Like. And I think I'm not even gonna ask you that question. It's. This ties in with the question that you had with my first million. So they asked you this. Your pod's not live yet with them, but what's the difference between billionaires versus millionaires?

[A]

You know, look, I think there's a lot of differences. I think the one that most stands out for me or one of the things that most stands out for me is there's a lot. And it's funny, I'm trying to recall what I said to those guys, and it's not popping up.

[B]

You want a hint?

[A]

No, I actually don't because I think it'll be more interesting for you, let alone everybody else. To me, it's their obsession with losing. How much do they love the game? How purebred are they? I think billionaires tend to like it way over the things that come along with it. Their tolerance for losing, their self awareness, putting yourself in a position to succeed. And there's serendipity. There's, you know, do you recognize where the economics are? I think there's tons of people who are millionaires that could have had the potential to be billionaires if they just picked a different genre to put their energy against a better business model.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. I think about that a lot. I know I didn't go into that with them. Like, I think about that a lot. Those things stand out.

[B]

Makes sense.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What you had said was the willingness to walk backwards.

[A]

Yeah. To go to zero. Yeah. That goes back to the love of the game. I defined it more for them. I think that, I think I'm on that path and I think whether I get there or not is completely. I could give a fuck because by the time when I get there, it's not gonna be as cool anymore anyway. Like starting to get to a place where like people are like. Well, that's common.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And plus, you know that so many people claim it that aren't it. Yeah. I'm willing to go to zero.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think, and I do think that there is some realities to that. I think the risks that are required for the bets that turn out to be those things are sometimes and oftentimes grounded in a Bezos or an Elon or an Oprah willing to take a risk that would have taken him all the way back or zero. And I want the kids to hear this. It doesn't mean they were really going to go to zero, but it was going to mean that they weren't going to make any money for five years. Right, Right. Like I'm definitely in that place. I'm willing to go there, not put myself out of business, but fuck myself up for a good seven years because I'm not worried about the judgment.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And here's what you told them. This is where the 5 million ties in. Kind of. You only need your safety net. What's the safety net?

[A]

Million dollars in cash.

[B]

That sounds kind of low.

[A]

Well, listen, for people that are very fortunate that have crushed it, for every normal person, you're like, that's an insane amount of money. And I think my normal person DNA is so much greater than my entrepreneur, that crush at DNA that I'm just very aware that a million dollars in cash, a lot of people won't earn that because don't forget, you gotta pay taxes. So, like, I just feel like if I lost everything and had a million, and again, we're not playing some weird fantasy game, I'd still be me. I would have just learned whatever the fuck I did to lose it all, which would have been a big learning experience. And I'd still be me. I could turn a million dollars into $20 million just flipping shit on ebay.

[B]

That's funny. What would you flip on ebay?

[A]

I mean, you know, the reality is it goes back to listening. I would go to ebay and take a look at trends. I mean, me and my brother AJ were buying video games and vintage rock T shirts to flip on eBay in 1999.

[B]

All those video games.

[A]

Think about how right we ended up like. And that only happened because you could see the data starting to emerge. I'm not sure if marbles are popping off or scarfs or magnets or cocomelon early collectibles. I don't know what's poppin on ebay like that. But I promise you, if I was back to zero and I had a million, no question, buying and selling shit would be the first thing I'd go to. Because for me and my skill set, 1 to 5 million would come fastest as buying something and selling it for more.

[C]

Got it.

[B]

I want to talk about veefriends, but before we get to that, I remember there was a clip of you talking to another. I'll just call him an influencer. I'm not even gonna name names, but this guy was asking you guys were collaborating. He's like, who works harder, you or me?

[A]

Who works harder?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I said, me?

[B]

Yeah, you said, there's just no way I work harder. And it's like 18 hours a day. Right. Do you think it takes 15 to 18 hours a day or is it just more so because you enjoy it?

[A]

More so than you, I think, on the record. So as cool as that little, like, peacocking flex is, like, let there be no confusion, there are tons of people that work eight hours a day who make more money than me and are happier than me. I'm really fucking happy. But I'm. And I mean, like, really happy. Yeah, but I'm not delusional enough to not think that there's people who are equally, if not more happy and work eight hours a day. And that's awesome. And by the way, I envy that. Zero. No, I don't Think working harder is like some sort of cool flex. I think it was misunderstood by society. Working harder when you love the out of it. I love when everyone tried to pick pinned me seven years ago. Like you're the hustle porn guy. I remember that article that was written and I was like, this is so fucked up. This is so not taking the words out of my mouth. And you're completely taking me out of context. Literally. My first book was Crush it How to cash in on your passion. Why'd you take the passion part out? Because I've been on the record that I did no homework in high school. I don't believe in work if you fucking hate it. I'm actually the most extreme example of all in when you love it and fuck that shit if you hate it. I just told you about the sign thing. I don't think you should work at all if you hate it. I don't know how you're gonna live, but like, you know, like fuck. So no, thank you for asking that question because it's giving me a few minutes to really break this down. I think people continue to not hear me and others on this. Working a lot is only cool if it's a comp. If it starts with you fucking love it. Comma. Yes. Do I think if you do 100 pushups that that would be better for your physique than 30? I believe in that volume quantity is not debatable. So if I versus me, my twin brother, who is exactly me, Barry, if I work 12 and he worked seven and we were the same, yes, I would get more outcome. It's the way it is. Sorry, but all these people that work 10, 12 hours a day to be an entrepreneur, to act cool, all to just make money so that they can go ball out and are living lives where they're fucking drinking a bottle of vodka at night to deal with their pain. That's not happy, that's not good, that doesn't work out. And so no, that's how. I don't think it requires hours. I think it requires self awareness. Right? You have to know yourself. Some people don't even have the natural energy to work that much.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like that's fucking hard. But I think the energy comes from loving it. Yeah, right. Like I can't run on a treadmill for 20 minutes. This is real now I really can't like fast, right? But I can play four hours of basketball straight, which is actually harder on my 48 year old body because I love it. I go and because I think running on treadmill is the worst shit of all time. I can't. This thing is so underrated, bro. This thing is so. Bro, this thing is so underrated. And the other one, because now I'm rolling this thing. I believe when we're dead and we're looking down from heaven, that intuition, the second brain, will be much more understood. No one's talking about it. I can tell you right now. This has made all the good decisions.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

This has kept it from being delirious, but this has been everything and no one's. And that's above my pay grade. But I'm telling you, this fucking thing and this fucking thing, both of them right now, by us humans, and we're getting cool now. Like ice plunge, fucking psychedelics, grounding. Like, we're starting to figure. Like, we're starting to become more, you know, old school.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like everything that's hot right now. Amongst influencers. My great grandma Babushka Anya made me do when I was 6 and she would visit us in Edison. She'd, like, wake us up in the morning dew. This is real talk. And make us go outside and walk barefoot. I'm like, what are we doing? We're supposed to be Americanized. This is so weird. And now the coolest kids in LA are like, give me the grand. And I was like, fucking Babushka Anya, you know, Like. Like, so old school's becoming new now. But I promise you, the thing that no one's talking about yet, for real. For real. That I think is gonna be common talk in 50 to 100 years, is this motherfucker.

[B]

The intuition, the gut.

[A]

And everybody wants to. We went over rational the last hundred years.

[B]

Yeah, you actually. I mean, speaking of your gut, you basically bet all in on Twitter and Facebook, right?

[C]

Yep.

[B]

That's your gut.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

We can segue into be friends right now.

[B]

Let's do that.

[A]

I believe in NFTs. Remarkably. I know where NFTs are right now. But again, you seem to be really on it. This will land with you. At the height of NFTs, I was making videos saying, these things are going. 99% are going to zero NFTs. The mistake that most people are listening right now that don't know about NFTs as a collectible digital asset is they think NFTs are beanie babies. They don't realize that NFTs are stuffed animals. It's a genre. 99% of the projects ended up being Beanie Babies. But just like contemporary art with Jackson Pollock and Andy Warhol. Just like basketball Training cards, Michael Jordan's rookie cards worth a lot of money. 99% aren't just like sneakers, just like watches, just like everything that's collectible. 99% are.01% is remarkable. The hysteria of the moment got everyone thinking every single one was going to be collectible.

[C]

Right?

[A]

But yeah, I'm really excited about it and for me personally it's really exciting because I think of veefriends as my intellectual property, which it is a Pokemon meets Sesame Street. So Sesame street of like good intent. I want to teach accountability through accountable ant and patience through patient panda and collectability. Like Pokemon. And like right now. If you want to know what's going on with veefriends, go to ebay right now. Everyone who's listening and type in Veefriends. Enter completed auctions. You will be blown away. And so quietly, quietly, I would say I am head down building something. I have a kids book coming out called Meet Me in the Middle. I have cartoons coming out with Moonbug who does Cocomelon. And I promise you, anyone who has a one to three year old in their world or recently knows exactly what I'm talking about. So I'm enjoying the shit out of building my Marvel Pokemon. And again, back to patience. Veefriends is vaynermedia 2010 and 11 when everybody laughed at me and be friends in 20 years will be be friends and everyone's gonna look back at clips and be like, fuck, man, he really knew it.

[B]

Two final questions before we wrap here. So what's the 10 year vision for it? Because it was Disney before, it's something else now.

[A]

Well, Disney, it still was. It was, it was always like Disney, Sesame Street. It was always ip. The reason I now say Sesame street is I don't think I fully appreciated how good Jim Henson's intent was. Man, I admire him.

[B]

I remember watching that stuff.

[A]

Yeah, it really did a nice thing. All the integrating immigrants and bilingual stuff and teaching love and accountability. He did a great job. Fraggle Rock. The brief was stop war. My admiration for Jim Henson last five years has exploded. And the collectability part is very real. I know that if I don't make it Pokemon esque or Marvel esque, that the collectible value won't be there. And I want Veefriend Series 1 NFTs to be one of the great collectibles in the next two, three years. Excuse me, two, three decades. And I'm excited about grinding that out. So the vision is fully the same. Get 8 billion people to fall in love with large town with the very, very, very, very lucky black cat who's the logo, you know, empathy elephant, main character dialed in dog dynamic dino, perfect Persian cat. If I can get people to fall in love with them, then the collectability will kick in, all the opportunities will kick in. And it's all built on the blockchain. So many things I can do in the future as the world learns about the underlying technology, the legalities around it. So there's a lot to still uncover. But I was there in 95-6789, 2000 for Internet 1. I was there for 2004, 5678 for Internet 2. And I'm here for this now. And I'm excited about the decade out.

[B]

All right, well, Gary, we could go on and on, but we'll end it here. What's the best way for people to find the book online?

[A]

I mean, people know how to buy books if you can't find day trading attention by gator because, like, I don't know, does ChatGPT excite you more than Google? Do you not know what Amazon is? I have a funny feeling to find it, but I thank you for that.