This Is What Entrepreneurship Really Looks Like | Kass and Mike Lazerow

Summary

Podcast Summary: "This Is What Entrepreneurship Really Looks Like | Kass and Mike Lazerow"

Episode: This Is What Entrepreneurship Really Looks Like | Kass and Mike Lazerow
Release Date: June 3, 2025
Podcast: The GaryVee Audio Experience
Host: Gary Vaynerchuk
Guests: Kass and Mike Lazerow

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1. Introduction and Book Launch

The episode kicks off with Gary Vaynerchuk introducing his friends, Kass and Mike Lazerow, who have recently launched their book titled "Shoveling Shit"—a love story about the messy path to entrepreneurial success.

• Gary Vaynerchuk (00:00): "Shoveling Shit is the name of the book. A love story about the entrepreneur's messy path to success."

Gary expresses his excitement about the book launch, highlighting the close-knit relationship between the hosts and the Lazerow brothers. He emphasizes the relentless grind involved in selling a book, setting the stage for an in-depth discussion about their entrepreneurial journey.

2. The Reality of Selling a Book

Kass and Mike delve into the challenges they faced during their book launch, sharing candid insights into the difficulties of selling their work despite having a supportive community.

• Mike Lazerow (03:04): "No one tells you about the selling. The easy part was writing it."

• Cass Lazerow (03:16): "We sold about 10,000 copies. Which we're told is good. We think it's not enough."

They discuss their proactive approach to selling, including setting up a table in Central Park to personally engage with potential buyers. This hands-on method underscores their commitment and work ethic.

• Cass Lazerow (03:48): "If you're doing a company and you're not willing to go to your local park and ask for the purchase, you don't believe in your company."

3. Overcoming Disappointments and Maintaining Generosity

The conversation shifts to the disappointments they've encountered, such as encountering wealthy individuals who declined to purchase their book citing budget constraints.

• Cass Lazerow (05:13): "There are people who... said no, did not buy a book."

Despite these setbacks, Kass and Mike emphasize their unwavering generosity and commitment to giving back, maintaining that their actions remain consistent regardless of others' responses.

• Mike Lazerow (07:32): "My actions will never change."

4. Target Audience and Marketing Strategies

Gary prompts Kass and Mike to identify their target demographic, leading to a comprehensive breakdown of who would benefit most from their book. They identify a wide range of audiences, including aspiring entrepreneurs, executives, hustlers, and individuals contemplating their next life chapter.

• Cass Lazerow (08:20): "This is 30 years in the making. It's every mistake we made, every painful loss, every lesson."

They also discuss their initial reliance on social media for sales, which primarily drove community engagement rather than direct purchases. Recognizing this, they pivot to more targeted advertising strategies to boost book sales.

• Cass Lazerow (09:57): "We have a whole data capability... social these days is not for selling until you have such a close relationship with these people."

5. Building Relationships and Facing Challenges

The Lazerow brothers highlight the importance of building genuine relationships with their audience, noting that their community's support has been instrumental in their journey. They also touch upon logistical challenges, such as restrictions with platforms like Amazon due to the book's title.

• Cass Lazerow (12:25): "Babson... wanted to incorporate it into their curriculum, but they couldn't because of the name."

6. Mental Health and Life Balance

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the impact of entrepreneurship on mental health and personal relationships. Kass shares a poignant story about her strained relationship with her father due to financial issues, illustrating the deep personal challenges that often accompany business endeavors.

• Cass Lazerow (26:04): "Writing the book made me realize how difficult companies are on mental health... I need to forgive him before anything."

Gary adds his perspective on mental health, emphasizing the importance of resilience and the ability to adapt when facing setbacks.

• Gary Vaynerchuk (27:09): "The keeping up with the Joneses thing is the great pandemic of our society."

7. The Importance of Mental Strength in Entrepreneurship

Gary and the Lazerow brothers underscore that mental strength is crucial for entrepreneurial success. They discuss how entrepreneurs often bear the full financial responsibility, which requires immense psychological resilience.

• Gary Vaynerchuk (31:00): "We're talking about the only thing that has ever made anyone achieve entrepreneurial success. Mental strength."

8. Critique of Social Media and Materialism

The conversation critiques the role of social media in fostering unrealistic comparisons and materialism. Gary shares his stance on avoiding showing off material success, believing it can harm others by setting unattainable standards.

• Gary Vaynerchuk (29:16): "I don't show the things that my hard work has afforded me because I don't think it brings any value."

Kass and Mike agree, highlighting the negative impact of constantly comparing oneself to others’ curated successes on social media platforms.

9. Building Sustainable Businesses Without Venture Capital

Kass and Mike discuss their preference for building businesses without relying on venture capital, advocating for sustainable growth through customer acquisition and cash flow.

• Cass Lazerow (32:08): "We were just on a podcast. Who's your favorite entrepreneur? I said, Gary, because he doesn't raise money."

They emphasize the importance of hands-on involvement and maintaining control over their ventures, distinguishing themselves from traditional venture-backed startups.

10. Final Thoughts and Closing

As the episode wraps up, Gary encourages the audience to support Kass and Mike’s book, highlighting its value and the authentic effort the brothers have invested.

• Gary Vaynerchuk (34:31): "Cas and Mike are truly family to me. If you can support this book, I really believe they put their soul into it, which makes it so valuable."

Kass and Mike express their gratitude, reaffirming their dedication to building genuine, empathetic businesses and fostering strong community ties.

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Notable Quotes

• Gary Vaynerchuk (02:50): "There's nothing better in life than to come down from five one or five love to win a set."

• Cass Lazerow (03:56): "We create a V2 mom, which is vision, value, methods, obstacles, which we talk about in the book."

• Mike Lazerow (07:10): "My actions will never change."

• Cass Lazerow (22:12): "It's okay to work hard and slack a little as a mom because she felt that she was an awful mom and not performing at her best at her company."

• Gary Vaynerchuk (27:36): "The keeping up with the Joneses thing is the great pandemic of our society."

• Cass Lazerow (31:00): "Mental strength. This is the hardest game. There's a reason there's so few of us."

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Key Takeaways

1. The Grind of Entrepreneurship: Selling a book or building a business involves relentless effort and overcoming numerous challenges. Personal engagement, such as setting up in local parks, is crucial for genuine sales.

2. Mental Health Matters: Balancing entrepreneurship with personal life is challenging but essential. Mental resilience and the ability to adapt are fundamental for long-term success.

3. Authentic Relationships: Building and maintaining genuine relationships with your audience fosters trust and support, which are vital for sustained business growth.

4. Critique of Social Media: Constant comparisons on social media can lead to dissatisfaction and depression. Avoiding flaunting material success can foster a healthier community.

5. Sustainable Business Practices: Focusing on customer acquisition and cash flow rather than relying solely on venture capital can lead to more sustainable and autonomous business growth.

6. Supportive Community: Having a supportive community and network is invaluable. Personal stories and shared experiences can inspire and guide aspiring entrepreneurs.

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This episode provides an unfiltered look into the real-life challenges and triumphs of entrepreneurship. Kass and Mike Lazerow offer valuable lessons on perseverance, the importance of mental health, and building authentic relationships, making their insights beneficial for both aspiring and established entrepreneurs.

Transcript

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Vaynernation. How are you? Very excited about this episode? Basically, as a lot of, you know, seven or ten episodes a year where I'm like, hey, buy this book. We've already done a telethon with these characters. Cass and Mike Lazaro are here. Shoveling shit is now out. Yes. That is the name of the book. A love story about the entrepreneur's messy path to success. Yesterday on my Instagram feed, I saw pictures of them in Central park slinging books, and I was very excited. It actually looked like a stage photo shoot. Cause I saw the boys were there. But nonetheless, Mike, Cass, this community of mine that's listening to the podcast has a pretty good sense of how close our relationship is. A lot of them have tuned in to the content on the launch of this book. I think the fun part actually in this podcast is, how's it going? Yeah, you know, shoveling shit. Talks about the dirty work and all that. Like the grind. The grind of selling a book. You guys have been really grinding it. What has been surprising, what has been disappointing, what has been humbling, what has been interesting? There's so many people listening right now that aspire to have a book be successful just like yourselves. Have been successful in many other things. Go into this new journey, you learn new things. Let's spend five minutes up front on the macro of a book launch. In a post mortem of the launch. When did the book come out?

[Mike Lazaro]

Book's coming out June 3rd.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Oh, shit. It's still not out.

[Cass]

June 3rd.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yes.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Oh, fuck. My brain broke. Okay, so scrap that whole thing. Meaning don't edit. Don't scrap it, but scrap that setup because I got confused. What are you feeling right now as you're incredibly close. Are we planning on launching this now or do you want me to launch it? Like, for you guys, this is gonna.

[Cass]

Be the week out.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Okay, fine. So, you know, but we're close at this point. It's the same. You can see I like breaking the fourth wall. What are you feeling right now? Like, what, What. What's your read?

[Mike Lazaro]

I think. Well, first of all, you pushed us to tell us that this was going to be a grind. Like, you told me it was going to be a grind.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yep.

[Mike Lazaro]

I love grinds.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I know you do.

[Mike Lazaro]

I. I really do. I think, like, connects to that, like, athlete in me that just wants to, like, practice, practice, practice and, you know, take the reps and do them.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Ask me what my favorite thing that I've accomplished in my life is. What is it beating Nate Schroeder in Tennis twice. When he was beating me five to one in a set to six Twice. Nate. Nate twice.

[Mike Lazaro]

It's so great.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

There's nothing better in life than to come down from five one or five love to win a set. It feels like everything.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yes. Yes.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

And I know that about you.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yeah.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

And I told you that's what this was gonna be. Yes.

[Mike Lazaro]

And it is. And I don't think I was surprised by it, but I do think that selling a book is very hard. It's very hard to do.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah.

[Mike Lazaro]

No one tells you about the selling. The easy part was writing it.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Correct.

[Mike Lazaro]

And it was fun coming up with a name.

[Cass]

Yeah. So we did the this the way we do any company. We went all in.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yes, you did.

[Cass]

And full transparency. We sold about 10,000 copies.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yes.

[Cass]

Which we're told is good. We think it's not enough.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yep.

[Cass]

And we're going to continue to work. We were sitting around this weekend and we said, why aren't we selling this to the real people who need it? And if you are doing a company and you're not willing to go to your local park and ask for the purchase, you don't believe in your company. Yeah. So we grabbed a table, made a sign, went to our park. It was not staged.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Who made the sign? Because I analyzed the sign.

[Mike Lazaro]

I did. I made the sign quickly. Quickly. On Vista.

[Cass]

I mean, listen, perfect is not what it's about.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

And by the way, I didn't say I analyzed it poorly.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yeah.

[Cass]

And Cassie, she was laughing, but I was sitting there like, you're an entrepreneur. Get your free books. Get your free advice. You know, people would come up and they're like, who are you? Oh, we've only had about $10 billion in exits. And they're like, wa. What the fuck?

[Mike Lazaro]

But here's the crazy part.

[Cass]

It was fun. I loved it.

[Mike Lazaro]

We, like Mike and I, there was nobody else carried a 40 pound table into Central Park. Like 100 yards. Like, that's not.

[Cass]

That's shoveling.

[Mike Lazaro]

It's shoveling.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah.

[Cass]

And so what we've done is we've said yes to everything. We, you know, podcasts.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

The humble brag of living 100 yards from Central Park, I thought was the best part of that little moment.

[Mike Lazaro]

Keep going.

[Cass]

Like, it just happens to be our local park. But doesn't matter what your park is like. If your park is like Cleveland, go to your park. We happen to have 18 million people come through our park.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah.

[Cass]

And we basically have just worked and we've, you know, we create a V2 mom, which is vision, value, methods, obstacles, which we talk about in the book. And we said we want to be a bestseller. How are we going to be a bestseller? We got to put in the work. So it's for us, it's speaking, getting on stages, it's podcast, and most importantly, it's asking people for the purchase that a lot of people don't ask people to buy. Whatever.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

That was my number one. Number one.

[Cass]

Yeah.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Anderson to Zarlie's.

[Cass]

And what's incredible, you're talking about disappointments. There are people who. We made one. Who. We made $80 million.

[Mike Lazaro]

80.

[Cass]

$80 million.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yep. I talk about this all the time.

[Cass]

That just said no, did not buy a book.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah.

[Cass]

Said that we don't have a budget.

[Mike Lazaro]

Like, you're getting really loud.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

No, no, he's right.

[Cass]

I will never forget that. I'll never forget you beating Nate. I'll never forget me beating Cass in pickleball. And I'll never forget the people who didn't buy books.

[Mike Lazaro]

Never beat me in pickleball.

[Cass]

We did stuff for. And I'm not transactional, you know that we give, give, give, give. But when I ask and someone says no, we don't have budget.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Something so frivolous.

[Cass]

So.

[Mike Lazaro]

And then you have to say, wait, you don't have personal budget for that.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

That part.

[Cass]

So that's the biggest disorder. You know who your friends. Write a book, and you'll know all your friends in a real way.

[Mike Lazaro]

In a real way.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

In a real way.

[Mike Lazaro]

And also, you'll know. This is the. The icky part. You'll know who's rooting for you. Yeah, that's the icky part.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah. By the way. Icky. Yes. I mean, I think, look, I think we're very close in real life, which, as you both know, my friend group is quite small. Like, it's predominantly family and employees.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yeah.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Because employees are family to me. You know, like, you guys know that I'm pretty happy. And the reason I'm happy is I also take note. I've got some crazy ones on that as well. I told you that was gonna happen.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yeah.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I reopened a round that was closed for someone that they made that kind of money on. Like, it was three months later. You know how impossible that is. And they bought zero books. And I, I. But I'm happy because I don't have expectations. Like, I'm not icked out by it. I feel bad, honestly. You know what's so weird? I'm so confident. I actually feel bad for people that do that to me. Cause I'm like, that's a mistake. You know what's funny? It might not be. Cause I'm such an idiot that I still would probably show up for people that heavily disappointed me. Because I don't really factor people's actions into my actions.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yeah, I mean, we talk about this a lot with our generosity. Right? I. I asked someone the other day, you know, if you're successful, I said this to this one person, do you stop giving back at a certain point? Because we don't.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah.

[Mike Lazaro]

And he goes, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you do. At a certain point, you just don't look behind you. And I just couldn't get over that because like, my actions will never change.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah, same. So a lot of people here will buy. A lot of people who listen will buy books. There's a very specific reason all these PR people hit me up every day, because the sales come from the podcast for the ones that are listening. Break down the different people that should buy this book. Who are, who's the demo that you think that's listening? On the other side are aspiring entrepreneur, active entrepreneur, executive, you know, kid, hustler, 60 year old, pondering next chapter, all the above, this way, that way. Here's how these people should think about it.

[Cass]

So yes, yes and yes. This is 30 years in the making. It's every mistake we made, every painful loss, every lesson. There are 50 cheat codes that we picked up the hard way. Not only about the business, but about life, not only about how to build a business. How do you build a life that matters? What's the purpose of being successful if you're miserable? Right? And so if you're an entrepreneur and you don't read this, you're negligent. It gives you every cheat code from how to structure your calendar to how to focus an organization, how to hire. Well, if you know aspiring entrepreneurs, a lot of people graduating, buy it for them. If you're in customer service, you're about to lose your job from AI Buy the book now, because whether you want to be an entrepreneur or not, you're out of work. If you're a salesperson, you're probably going to have to do your own thing at some point. If you're a junior coder, buy this book because it'll help you get up and running.

[Mike Lazaro]

I also think if you're about to buy a company, right? We see a lot of entrepreneurs by acquisition, right? This is the book, this is how you do it. We speak to a lot of kids. You speak to a lot of kids. This is the Book to buy.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

What'S not worked that you thought would work selling this book.

[Cass]

So we were hopeful that social media would move books. It's created an incredible community. It's not where you sell books. For us, we started at zero. We have built a network which for the first month reached a million people last month. We look at that, we thought it was going to drive books. We look at that as just building the relationship. We should have known because we have your book. Have you all over the place.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Well, have you, have you made a direct call to action piece of content that you've run media against?

[Cass]

Yes, yes.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

And so what are you seeing there?

[Mike Lazaro]

Not conversion to sales but definitely conversion to followers.

[Cass]

So we're at the point right now where we have two weeks and we're starting a blitz which will include many more ads that we think puts our best ads forward. So everything we do we're learning from. We have a whole data capability, not just CRM but who's visited the websites, who's following us, all that stuff. And frankly we don't think social these days is for selling until you have such a close relationship with these people which we're starting to feel. We're starting to feel personal relationships like you have felt with people who have supported us, who've bought books, who want to get our attention. What's interesting is there have been people who've gone so overboard in supporting us just to get our help of course, which we probably would have helped anyways. And we're walking out of this with probably 100 great friends who we didn't.

[Mike Lazaro]

Meet and we like people who show up to our founders farm which is our community that we talk to like every other week who are awesome and they're like we can't wait for this book to come out. We're going to do everything we can to push it. That has been really lovely.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Book tour.

[Mike Lazaro]

Book tour. We've done two book parties. We've got another one.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Will you when it comes out or are you trying to avoid that? We're doing it hard.

[Mike Lazaro]

I don't know if it's.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

This goes back to the reason I'm bringing it up.

[Mike Lazaro]

Tell you one thing.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Mike Lazaro]

Cuz I want is been a problem on the book tour.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

There's stores in parts of the country that don't want to have you.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yes. And that's been an issue which we.

[Cass]

Love every time we get.

[Mike Lazaro]

We love that we want a product.

[Cass]

People love or hate and people who love the COVID and the.

[Mike Lazaro]

And we can't Get Amazon ready for this. To. To allow us to do ads through social. Because of the name, they won't allow us to do ads.

[Cass]

But you could buy a gun on Amazon.

[Mike Lazaro]

That's the crazy part. So, like, there's been really fucked up.

[Cass]

So you want. On Amazon?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah. I mean, listen, you're talking to somebody who's been fighting the cursing reality for 20 years. It's one of the great silly things in our society.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yeah, we. What was it we wanted to do? But wait, wait, wait. What's the college.

[Cass]

There was a very prominent entrepreneurship program like Babson, where it probably is Babson, where they were very interested because this is their textbook.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

You're welcome.

[Cass]

And the only reason they didn't kind of incorporate it into their curriculum, their curriculum was because of the name. And I said, listen, if your students can't, like, deal with shit and just saying that, they have no chance as an entrepreneur.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Crazy, crazy, shit. Crazy.

[Mike Lazaro]

And the guy had one of our really good friends who is a big supporter of Babson. I don't know if he's on a board. Is he on the board there?

[Cass]

Babson.

[Mike Lazaro]

But he had like 500 to a thousand books lined up for us. And then he gets to the top guy on the board who's like, no, we can't have anything that would say something like that. I'm like.

[Cass]

Which says more about institutions today than anything.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah, of course.

[Cass]

And we love Babson. I mean, it's the single best entrepreneurship.

[Mike Lazaro]

You know, screw that. Right?

[Cass]

I'm not saying it's Babson.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah. No, no one's saying, yeah, we love Babson. And no one's that, like, entrepreneurship is like sports and you really actually have to do it versus reading about it. You know, no one is saying that.

[Mike Lazaro]

No one is.

[Cass]

It's not a book that we could have done, like, at any time. But now, like, we needed time to basically say, okay, here's.

[Mike Lazaro]

I wish we did it earlier. What are you talking about?

[Cass]

Maybe a few years earlier. But we had to experience.

[Mike Lazaro]

We didn't have any bandwidth to do it earlier because, you know, you know what the drill is.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Of course. Especially the kids at your age. Kids.

[Mike Lazaro]

Bigger problems.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

100%. And you also were decompressing from 30 years of running in a hamster wheel.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yeah.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Like, you guys were allowed to, like, go into that chapter of your career. Plus, it also happened during COVID There were so many things going on.

[Mike Lazaro]

Do you know what I think our biggest regret is? Not keeping up our community right after Buddy Media. Like, we. We just went Silent on social.

[Cass]

Basically not listening to you.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yeah.

[Cass]

We had dinner right after we sold and you said, listen, I love your writing. I was doing a lot of writing. Yeah, I remember you need to keep doing it. And we were just tired and you know, you could do anything. You just can't do everything. And that's one thing that minus you.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah. But I think, you know, I think the other thing is that, like, I'm sure this book and this adventure for you guys has been really eye opening, especially the way I see you guys connect with people on stage. Like, I'm sure it's not lost on you two, especially knowing that your youngest is going to college in fall. You have so many more chapters in front of you.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yes.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

In a way that, like knowing you so well, where I don't have predictions, like, I don't know if you'll start another massive company or continue to just do the investing, heavy handed, being involved, private equity type stuff, but like, you may go all the way to one extreme, all the way to the other extreme. And you'll probably do that multiple times.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yeah.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Like, do I think you have three years in front of you six years from now where you're more checked out than you've ever been? I'm like, yeah, that would make sense. Because that would mean for the last six years you've been doing this and other stuff.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yes.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

And then do I think after those three years you're like, wait a minute. I think, and in general, the reason I'm probably saying this is I want people on the podcast to hear me out on this. I don't understand this concept that humans think everything is absolute and you can't just adjust.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yeah.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Like, I remember my sister really wanting. I could feel it through every phone call interaction. Even though my mom put being a stay at home mom on such a pedestal that my sister was propaganda ed by it and she could not wait to do it. She was in retail then. She was a great teacher now. She started her family and she was excited for it and living that life. But after about five or six years, I could just see it on her face. I'm like. And I said to her, I was like, just like in a kind of like shaking moment of like on the phone with her, I was at the airport. I remember this moment so well. I was like, sis, you're allowed to change your fucking mind.

[Mike Lazaro]

Exactly.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Like, I get that you've been told and you decided for yourself for 40 years that like, or 30 years, whatever it was at the time, like you're gonna be this stay at home mom, just like mom, like you're allowed. And watching her go through the process of being a real estate agent and now doing that and now balancing both, she's a dramatically happier person.

[Mike Lazaro]

There you go.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

And like you're allowed back to shoveling shit. Like everybody if like your business sucks right now and you hate it, like, you're allowed to shut it down or sell it.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yeah.

[Cass]

And we, I mean, a big part of this book is it's miserable and suffering and going through it is difficult and it's awesome. It's like parenting.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yes.

[Cass]

It's being able to hold those two things. And parenting golf, it's like you have one good shot. It keeps you playing golf. And I think inside these companies, for a lot of people, we find our purpose. Right. And we had lost our purpose in many ways.

[Mike Lazaro]

Speak for yourself.

[Cass]

I had, you know, I was painting, you know this, I was painting. I was a little lost. And it took me to say, this is.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I want to hear from you. You got him. You enabled it. You got him this, his own little apartment.

[Mike Lazaro]

He was painting all on the floor.

[Cass]

But what happened was I realized that this is what we do. And it's why kind of I found my purpose, the passion. I get up, I would get up in the morning when I was painting. I'm like, I'm the worst. Like, I used to love painting, but hobbies are things that we should suck. But you love that.

[Mike Lazaro]

Send Gary one of the, One of the pictures.

[Cass]

Yeah, if you want one of my paintings, have a painting. But.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Oh, I get. I mean, but I don't beat myself up. I woke up this morning at 5:40. I was in Nashville yesterday just to play 6am basketball. It's my hobby. I suck. Like, I had a really bad day today. Like I was like 2 for 18 from the field. Uh oh, sound like the Celtics. And it was. But you, you know, hobbies are. You're right. Hobbies are things for a lot of people that you love that you're not as good at. To your point though, why I love entrepreneurship, for a lot of us, it's minimally half hobby.

[Cass]

Yeah.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

You know, that's why it's so great, you know, for us. I know I can speak for the three of us. Like, we really like it. Like we really like it.

[Mike Lazaro]

See, I look, I like, like, I like I said from the beginning, I like the grind. I like having a purpose every day. I like, it's not that I'm sitting there going, oh, I have to fill my Day with something, you know, because I can. I. You know, Mother's Day, I spent by myself, alone with my dogs. I guess I wasn't alone.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

That's what you wanted.

[Mike Lazaro]

That's what I wanted.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Good for you.

[Mike Lazaro]

Silence.

[Cass]

And I was out of town.

[Mike Lazaro]

Well, I would have asked for it anyways, but. But the. The purpose that. Getting up a fish show. No, he was playing golf.

[Cass]

I was with Cole his 21st birthday.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Okay. Okay.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yeah. He's playing golf. I was. Right.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah. Well, your son.

[Mike Lazaro]

Right?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah. I mean.

[Mike Lazaro]

Correct.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Don't sandbag them here to the audience.

[Cass]

I appreciate Becky here's one of the few people who will actually, you know, call Cass out.

[Mike Lazaro]

No, no, no.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Just trying to support you. That was like. It's. When you said golf, I was pissed.

[Mike Lazaro]

No.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

And then when you said Cole, I was like, oh, good job.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yeah. No, we. We set up a trip. Mike and I, for my sister did the same thing.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

She was like, this is what I want for Mother's Day.

[Mike Lazaro]

Like, you're like, I love that. Everyone's like, oh, I want to be around my kids on Mother's Day. Are you kidding me?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

It does seem.

[Mike Lazaro]

Are you kidding me?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

You know what is funny? I wonder. I actually believe that there's a valid point that Mother's Day should be when moms don't, like, don't hang out with.

[Mike Lazaro]

There's no reason to be around with a.

[Cass]

There's already a movement around Valentine's Day called Galentine's. It's like, screw the husbands. Just the women go and have fun together. Right?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Oh, I love everything about that.

[Cass]

Why don't they do Mother's Day like that?

[Mike Lazaro]

Well, first of all, it's all made up holidays. Let's just go right there.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah. And by the way, speaking for the fathers, nobody gives a fuck about Father's Day compared to Mother's Day. Like, if you want an indication of where we are in society, like, Dad's like, somebody throws like, some underwear at them at like nine in the morning. Like, dad. And then that's like. And they're like, dad, go do some shit. Like, it's like.

[Cass]

And we're fine with it. Yeah, we're like, whatever.

[Mike Lazaro]

And a tie. Like, you gotta remember ties. I used to give my dad ties back.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Back to the book. It's obviously on the precipitous of being released. But people have read it at this point?

[Mike Lazaro]

Yes.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Cause now it actually exists.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yes.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

What's the biggest compliment you've gotten from someone who's read it? And what I mean by that is. What did they call out that neither of you saw? Cause I think the best and coolest part about writing a book is when you get feedback on it. You've been in it for so long, and you think you know everything about it. And then somebody you admire or respect gives you some flowers on a piece of it, and you're like, oh, fuck. I didn't even, like, has that happened yet?

[Cass]

I know mine, but you go first.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

You go first. Why Cass thinks of hers.

[Mike Lazaro]

I'm trying to think of mine. That was.

[Cass]

There was a mom who came to the. You know, one of our meetings. We do these zooms with the Founders Farm, and she started crying, and she said, for the first time in my life, I have given myself grace to realize that it's okay to work hard and slack a little as a mom because she felt that she was an awful mom and not performing at her best at her company. It's an events company, and the book helped her realize there is no balance. She needs to be kind to herself and just realize that she prioritized family and work. She can't do everything perfectly.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Every day's a grind.

[Cass]

And it was that imbalanced life that we captured that has given a lot of people a mirror to say, what I am doing is okay and I'm building a life that I'll be able to sit back maybe later and enjoy some of the spoils, but my kids will be okay, and the company will be okay.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

In fact, one of the most profound moments of my career happened on a speaking tour in Asia, where I had, like, a VIP event after. And it turned into me having to hang with, like, 20, 30 very successful people. So it was really fun. Young. And this young woman said, we got into deep philosophical shit. And this young woman said, kind of like jam sessions. And this young woman said something that I will never forget to the day I die. She said that growing up, she really resented her mom because her mom was one of the five biggest judges in the Philippines or Singapore. I don't recall. And she said she turned 20 and she had this moment of clarity where she realized, yes, my mom missed recitals and stuff of that nature. She's like, but, oh, fuck, I'm in university with all these girls. And I just realized something. My mom showed me how to live.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yes.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

She didn't tell me how to live. And I was hanging out with all these girls that had moms at home who told them what to do but didn't show them what to do. And it crushed me to My core. Because what people don't tell each other enough as kids. You have three, I have two. Kids are all different, and they're all gonna get different things. You know, me and my sister are pretty close in age. The way my sister and I view our childhood, what our parents did is different.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yeah, it's different. Different perspective.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

It's different perspectives. And so whether you over coddle, under coddle, whether you stayed at home or went to work, you know, like, you're. The reality is you don't know how your kid's gonna perceive it. You might be doing a disservice in the thing that you think is servicing them. And it's a really interesting game.

[Mike Lazaro]

So, you know, I was gonna. My example was gonna be about this other woman who came up to me, and again, she was just very emotional about, you know, I just really feel like I'm gonna fuck my kids up. Like I. I'm going to. And I said, well, it's not necessarily going to be because you're working. You know, I said, you got a whole long list of things that can come before working.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

In fact, there's a lot of parents who save their kids by working because if they were around too much, all that neurotic horseshit that they have would have went on them, even though helicopter. I mean, dead serious.

[Mike Lazaro]

I am, too.

[Cass]

I think. I think us not being around early could have been a good thing.

[Mike Lazaro]

But what. What she said is you said, your kids are okay now. And I said, what was interesting is in the last five years, I've really realized. Both Mike and I have realized that you can say whatever you want to kids, but it's going to go in and out of their ear. But if you show them, right, you actually show them how to live, how to show up for people, how to have a work ethic, how to have values and morals and do the right thing, that will stay with them. And so she said to me, you know, I listened to you on stage and you said, your kids are all right. And all of a sudden, I felt like everything worth it, what I was doing, and specifically, like, my kids know that working hard is a virtue.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah, of course.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yeah.

[Cass]

Well, it's also something that writing the book, we have to take stock of our life. And.

[Mike Lazaro]

Which you. Which you.

[Cass]

I haven't talked about this really, anywhere.

[Mike Lazaro]

Oh, here we go.

[Cass]

But, you know, right. For my bar mitzvah, my dad ran into some massive financial issues.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Aware.

[Cass]

And he made it clear that he didn't want to live, and I didn't Understand it at the time.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Of course not.

[Cass]

Right. Because you're young, and it's a relationship that I basically wrote off. We have a relationship, but we really don't. You. You've met my stepfather, my mom. You haven't met my dad, right?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

That's right.

[Cass]

And there's a reason. Writing the book made me realize how difficult companies are on mental health, especially if you run into major financial issues and then those financial issues start impacting your personal relationships.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Of course.

[Cass]

And I would just encourage everyone who have severed relationships or relationships that aren't great to give a little mercy, which I didn't do. But part of writing the book, I realized that. Oh, man. I learned what I know about mental health from that example. Right.

[Mike Lazaro]

Exactly.

[Cass]

And I need to kind of forgive him before anything, which has been a process that I figured out in the book.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

You know, it's really powerful what you just shared, Mike. It makes me think about the thing that I wish more people could get to, which is your dad. And so many people today are so worried about what people think about them.

[Mike Lazaro]

Oh, yeah.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

The reason so many people jump out windows when they lose their money in Wall street is they're not capable of going backwards.

[Mike Lazaro]

And the shame.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

That part. But where the shame comes from worrying about what people think about them having to go backwards. You know, I think about this a lot. I think about this a lot because I've always really almost romanticized going backwards, which is super sick. I mean, it. I talk a lot in my content about liking the Rocky, where he goes back to, like, the basics. There's just something. This is just why I adore my mom so much. There's something in me that, like, you know, if I text you guys, I'm like, hey, just want you to know about some personal manners. Like, I have to sell my apartment. I don't view that as, like, I'm not scared of people being like, oh, you're a loser, or this and that. And I feel like definitely when your dad went through that, nobody had the capacity to go backwards. And I will say that most people right now could have a much better life if they could live within their financial means, but they're not willing to sell their home and downsizing their home. They're not willing to take the BMW and bring it back and.

[Mike Lazaro]

Keeping up with the Joneses. Yeah.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I believe the keeping up with the Joneses thing is the great pandemic of our society. I really believe that.

[Mike Lazaro]

Agreed.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

And it's why I never share any content ever in my career. Never have that speaks to anything. Bougie.

[Cass]

Yeah.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

You know, I don't show the things that my hard work has afforded me because I don't think it brings any value. I do not believe it is aspirational to show someone a private plane or an incredible vacation or diamonds. I believe it's actually hurting people.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yeah. Yep.

[Cass]

You know, I think that that is right. And there are a lot of people who are showing it and living in their parents basement and creating this environment where like, it just looks like everyone's crushing it, but you pull back the curtain.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Or the parents basement is not that extreme. They're doing it by maximizing credit cards by living way above their means. You know, it's like it's not. You know, the reason I'm double clicking on that is I want people to understand, especially ones that are doing it right now. Like, you know, that that intense story Mike shared, that's. That's really on the edges of, like, how bad it can get. But I do believe a lot of people are depressed and unhappy because of this issue.

[Mike Lazaro]

And they're comparing.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yes.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yes. And comparison is the thief of joy.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

In a way that's crazy. You know, like, you and I, the three of us grew up in entrepreneurial times together. When you guys had your incredibly massive event with Buddy Media and Salesforce and when I visited you in your very incredible third home outside the U.S. those were joyous moments for you. None of your winning felt like that. I wasn't winning. We need to get to that place universally. If we got to that place universally, there'd be a very happy world.

[Mike Lazaro]

Big time.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Envy and jealousy is foundational to our problems.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yeah. Yep, yep, yep. I couldn't agree more. And.

[Cass]

And it's important that you're talking about it. I mean, with your platform, I think it really matters.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

You know, I think again, we're talking about shoveling, we're talking about an entrepreneurial book here. But what we're doing for all the entrepreneurs and the wannabe entrepreneurs and the aspiring entrepreneurs is we're talking about the only thing that has ever made anyone achieve entrepreneurial success. Mental strength. This is the hardest game. There's a reason there's so few of us. There's a reason there are so few of us who literally live their full life with 100% of the financial responsibility on their neck.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yeah, yeah.

[Cass]

And only that you're. When you start a company, you are agreeing to let people see you fail.

[Mike Lazaro]

In public, front row seat.

[Cass]

And I remember at Buddy Media, at the end, we'd raise $100 million. And one night, I turned to Cass. I'm like, if this doesn't work out, we're fucking dead. Like, we're done forever. Because we respect real. I mean, at the end of the day, I think we're real entrepreneurs, but real entrepreneurs are ones that grow the business without venture capital. Right. Venture capital provides a safety net. And I say this all the time. We were just on a podcast. Who's your favorite entrepreneur? I said, gary, because he doesn't raise money. And by the time he does, there's a reason. Right?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah.

[Cass]

And I think that that kind of hustle of, like, how do you get customers on board? How do you get cash flow to grow the business?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Well, that's what makes selling books so interesting for you guys, right? Because it's a different game. It's a. It's a different transaction.

[Cass]

We were okay going to zero and starting again. And we. What's weird is maybe we're sick Fox. I don't know. But we fantasize all the time about. Maybe we were happier when we were, like, poor. That. I'm like, no, we weren't. Like, we couldn't afford health care. We couldn't.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

But you know what? You weren't poor in the. In. Like, you're obviously in a very different financial stratosphere. You were happy because with Golf.com and with Bunny Media, you were building the reason you guys are alive in a different way. You're builders. Like, that's. That's the part.

[Mike Lazaro]

Right.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

You're not custodians of. You're not renters.

[Mike Lazaro]

That's where I have to say if. If I'm being totally honest, I didn't love the V being a VC because I'm a builder. And I didn't think when you're a.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Vc, you're a fan.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yes. And I didn't feel close.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

You're not, like, hands. You're not on the field.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yeah.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

You're a fan.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yeah, I'm just, you know.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

You're a supporter.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yeah.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Like, I'm going to go to the Garden tonight, and I'm like, I want the Knicks to win so bad, but, like. But I'm going to cheer.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yes.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

And, like, that's kind of no different than when I write a $50,000 check to a startup. Like, I'm like, I'm cheering from the size. You know, I'm cheering.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yeah. And. And.

[Cass]

And so we're not raising another VC fund. We will be launching businesses. We're launching 10 pizza places. Cass doesn't know about this yet. But we love pizza. Everyone loves pizza. And. And we're buying companies that.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah.

[Cass]

We bought, you know, health care, staffing.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

When you took that one.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yeah.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Like when you guys. Again, just love that. I know. It's where I'm about to go with the podcast. Taking the curtain away. When you guys and I talk in real life and you bring up that thing, you bring up that thing in a different way than you do other stuff.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yes.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

You feel better about it.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yes.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

You like it more. You're in deeper.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yeah.

[Cass]

We can build culture.

[Mike Lazaro]

We can.

[Cass]

One of the first things we did is do a profit sharing plan.

[Mike Lazaro]

Yeah.

[Cass]

So cumming's been around for 25 years. Incredibly profitable. They'd never felt.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah. The impact.

[Cass]

And so it's. How do you. How do we run our playbook of like it's your playbook of empathy and passion, hard work and accountability and leading by example. And when you own more than 50%.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

You can do it.

[Cass]

You be the boss. You have to be a benevolent dictator.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yep. But you like the barn owl in Be Prince.

[Cass]

Yes. Or the possum.

[Mike Lazaro]

You were possum for you today.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I love it. Well, listen, shoveling shit, you can find it everywhere. Books are sold by the time you listen to this, but I think we go to Amazon and hit it hard to get that rank up. I do say this often, but I think a lot of you know this. Cas and Mike are truly family to me. And so if you can support this book, if you run an entrepreneur school or a hub, you know, I'm looking for dozens and fives and sevens and four kids that all are entrepreneurial. One for each support this book. I really believe they put their soul into it, which makes it so valuable the way books are priced. I just find this so valuable. And so my Cass, thank you so much. Thanks, Gary.

[Mike Lazaro]

Love you.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Thank you all so much for listening to this episode of the GaryVee audio experience. If you made it all the way to the end, let us know in the Spotify comments section and we will see you next time for an all new episode. It.