THIS Will Help You Become Better at Making Content

Summary

---

The GaryVee Audio Experience

Episode: THIS Will Help You Become Better at Making Content

Date: December 19, 2025
Host: Gary Vaynerchuk
Guest: Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)

---

Episode Overview

This episode is a high-energy, in-depth coaching session where Gary Vaynerchuk breaks down how to create more effective content in today’s social landscape. The conversation, featuring Jack, a kayaking and drone video entrepreneur, dives into the best content strategies for organic growth, brand building, franchising, ad performance, and the rapidly evolving platforms and algorithms. Gary unpacks what it really takes to break through on social media, challenges vanity metrics, and lays out practical tactics anyone can use to become a better content creator for business.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Content Creation is a Long Game. Reps Matter Most

• Gary’s Philosophy: You can’t “think” your way to viral content – you have to produce, experiment, and learn from what actually works over time.
• Quote:

  "You need to live it. How do you break through? By doing so much content for so long that you start to get an understanding of the thematics at work." (00:00)

• Tactics:
  • Try a wide range of formats (memes, carousels, combined posts).
  • The more you create, the clearer the patterns of what works become.

2. Leveraging Virality for Business: ‘Brandformance’

• Turning Organic Wins Into Sales:
  After a video goes viral, “slightly tweak it” for use as an ad. Add a clear call to action, discount offer, or explicit sales copy to convert attention into business.
• Quote:

  “Taking the viral creative and turning it into an ad, the viral creative is building brand, the ad is building performance. We call this brandformance.” (03:12)

3. Algorithm Realities: Social is Now “Interest Media”

• Big Shift:
  Platforms have transitioned from follower-based organic reach to surfacing content by interest and engagement.
• Quote:

  “The greatest thing about Organic Social right now is the algorithms are not based anymore on...your followers, it’s now based on the content.” (02:14)

• Implication:
  • Small/new accounts can explode if their content is quality.
  • The interaction now is less about a “list” and more about catching broad or niche interest waves.

4. Platform-Specific Advice

• Instagram: Described as “impossible” and highly competitive (like moving from school league to pro sports).

  “Instagram now is the pros. If you’re going to really go crazy, you gotta be the best.” (07:49)

• LinkedIn: Under-utilized for franchise/business recruitment—post hard-hitting business content multiple times a day.

  “You should be putting out three posts a day on LinkedIn saying the same seven things, 7,000 different ways of why they should work with you.” (04:15)

• TikTok: Immature but with massive reach potential—heavily recommended when “attention” is shifting away from Instagram.
• Ad Strategy:

  “Taste—spend like $55 on the same ad on three different platforms to see what’s brewing.” (09:33)

5. Practical Franchising & Content Tactics

• On Selling Franchises: Go heavy on LinkedIn, repeat value props in various ways, and use testimonials (ideally not from family).
• Podcasting as Content Engine:
  • Use podcasts as an easy way to create frequent, diverse content.
  • Experiment with interview formats (e.g., guests in kayaks, action podcasts).

  • “Almost everyone should have a podcast because having guests is a very easy way to get content.” (12:14)

• Test Ownership and Overcoming Fear:
  Don’t let fear of “messing up the algorithm” prevent you from making direct asks or cross-posting business offers.

6. The “Vanity Metric Disease”

• Challenge:
  Most creators hesitate to directly ask for business out of fear of lowering their likes/views.
• Gary’s Solution: Care about the actual business result, not surface-level performance.
• Quote:

  “There is a disease in marketing. It’s called caring about the vanity metrics over your business.” (22:25) “For me, it’s business over algo.” (22:57)

7. Audience Segmentation and Cohorts

• Advanced Targeting:
  Adjust your content style and messaging for different groups (“cohorts”). E.g., seasoned agency owners in the Midwest vs. young, NYC-based startups.
• Quote:

  “You have to create cohorts. The consumer groups you’re trying to get—they're not going to get the same content.” (52:12)

• Implication:
  • Make highly tailored content (even if it “messes up your grid”).
  • Use ads where tailored content shouldn't be publicly visible on the grid.

8. AI and the Future of Content

• Current Use: Best for brainstorming and cultural insight, less for true ad copy or creative (for now).
• Strategic Use: Use AI as a “thinking partner” – ask it what would appeal to your niche or demographic.
• Quote:

  “You can literally type into AI: 'What would get people to want to like use a kayak?'…I ask AI to think with me.” (32:08)

• Prediction:
  Anyone will easily make thousands of micro-targeted ads daily in a few years.

9. Operational Excellence and “Pounding” Your Message

• Advice for Agency/Service Businesses:
  Consistently share operational insights, best practices, and client-oriented value props.
• Quote:

  “Pound, pound, pound. What’s the most universal mistake you’ve seen agencies make?” (36:33)

• Make Ads Specifically for Different Problems (“Why agencies rarely hold onto a client for two years”).

10. Convincing vs. Conviction

• Stop Trying to Convince the Unconvincible:
  Focus relentlessly on the small proportion of the market actively interested.

  “You’re worried about convincing the non-convincible and you haven’t even gotten 1% of 1% of 1% of the convinced.” (24:07)

• In Careers, Lead with Conviction:
  Consistent, respectful conviction outperforms trying to appease everyone or just seeking approval.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On breaking through:

  “How do you break through? By doing so much content for so long that you start to get an understanding of the thematics that work. If you think I woke up one morning and said...we’re gonna make a meme...I promise you, I had no fucking idea.” – Gary Vaynerchuk (39:09, restated emphasis at the end)

• On Instagram’s maturity:

  “Instagram today is like you’re not even in Malibu anymore…so mature. What happens is more people today, more content will be produced for Instagram than any day in the history of Instagram. However…the attention has gone to TikTok.” – Gary Vaynerchuk (06:46)

• On being business-first:

  “There is a disease in marketing. It’s called caring about the vanity metrics over your business. For me, it’s business over algo.” – Gary Vaynerchuk (22:25, 22:57)

• On platform experimentation:

  “Taste—spend like $55 on the same ad on three different platforms to see what’s brewing…That’s the level of, like, if you’re gonna get into peak physical shape…That’s a level of diet and exercise that is really fucking intense. Same in this game.” – Gary Vaynerchuk (09:33)

• On podcasting as content:

  “I believe almost everyone should have a podcast because having guests is a very easy way to get content. The Shed should absolutely have a daily to minimally weekly podcast.” – Gary Vaynerchuk (12:14)

• On convincing:

  “Don’t convince, just have conviction…You’re worried about convincing the non-convincible and you haven’t even gotten 1% of 1% of 1% of the convinced.” – Gary Vaynerchuk (24:07)

• On grid aesthetic:

  “Nobody gives a fuck about your grid…If you’re doing grid for the aesthetic but it’s not following best practice to reach…the most audience, what the fuck are you accomplishing?” – Gary Vaynerchuk (19:35)

---

Useful Timestamps

• 00:00 – Gary’s opening salvo: “You need to live it…reps.”
• 01:10 – “Take viral content and make it your ad collateral.”
• 03:12 – Introducing “Brandformance.”
• 04:15 – LinkedIn for franchising: “Three posts a day…”
• 07:49 – Social platforms as attention stock markets. State of Instagram.
• 12:14 – The podcast as the ultimate content engine.
• 19:35 – On not caring about social ‘grids.’
• 22:25 – “Disease of caring about vanity metrics.”
• 24:07 – “Don’t convince the unconvincible.”
• 32:08 – Using AI as a thinking partner.
• 36:33 – Pound your message; operational excellence content.
• 52:12 – Consumer cohorts and audience targeting.
• 55:12 – Conviction vs. convincing in the workplace.

---

Final Takeaways

• Volume + Adaptation = Success: The only real secret is relentless output, constant adaptation, and learning from every piece of content.
• Platform Nuance Matters: Each social platform has its own “currency”; be willing to move and change tactics.
• Hyper-Practicality Over Perfection: Don’t let algorithm anxiety or brand aesthetics block you from actual sales and growth.
• Focus on Conviction, Not Conversion: Obsess over the already interested, not those you need to convince.
• Future-Proofing: Be ready to leverage AI and micro-targeting at a massive scale in the coming years.

---

For content creators and entrepreneurs: this episode is a reality check and a roadmap—delivering practical, sometimes blunt truth about what it takes to succeed in modern media and business.

Transcript

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

You need to live it. How do you break through? By doing so much content for so long that you start to get an understanding of the thematics at work. If you think that I woke up one morning and said, you know what we're gonna do? We're gonna make a meme that captures the essence of the video and we're gonna do a two post carousel. Cause that's gonna get the most organic reach. I promise you, I had no fucking idea. If you think I thought making photos that has a picture of me in it that then says the person that's sending you this thinks. And then whatever the fuck we've written was gonna be the consistent million organic reach post. When I first posted the first one like this has no shot reps. This is the GaryVee audio experience. Let's lock in.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Cool. So I've been fortunate enough to go viral continually with the kayaking business. We have over like 400 million views.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah. The content is obviously so conducive. If you were selling concrete, it wouldn't be as easy.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Part of the thought process in my daily work is how do I convert more of that to actual business?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

By taking the content that's gone viral and slightly tweaking it and making it the collateral that you advertise against. Okay, let me say that one more time for everyone before you go to the podcast. I've got a big announcement. I know several years ago a lot of you bought 12 books of 12 and a half to get the NFT, the book games NFT. I also know that a lot of people have dropped off on their journey with Veefriends, which is a massive mistake because what we're doing on Burn island and what we're doing on base with book games is remarkable. So you need to go to vee friends veefriends.com oldbooks go to vfriends.com oldbooks with an S. You will go to that landing page and we will help you explain if you are trying to figure out where your NFTs are, how to bring them over to the website and how to start activating them so that you can start using them for all the incredible exchanges and draws and raffles and experiences that we're doing for people that actually own the book games. So Please go to veefriends.com where you can start your journey on reactivating your book games journey. The greatest thing about Organic Social right now is the algorithms are not based anymore on what they used to be, which is like your followers, it's now Based on the content. So social for the first 15 years was more about like email marketing. Build a list market to it, get a percentage of them to do stuff. Over the last two years we've are fully in the process of the TikTok ification of all social kind of why I invested in Tumblr. I invested in Facebook and Twitter for the email thing. I invested in Tumblr for the content thing. Meaning the social graph used to be based on your social network. Now social media could actually be called interest media cause it's based on the interest graph. The shed could have 19 followers on LinkedIn tomorrow and decide it wants to go. And the first post could get a million views if the post itself was good. So you have affirmation from the world that they like this video. Two things come to mind. One, does that equally mean that they want to buy? No. And then two, you've got that part you can't control. The part you can control is say, okay, this video got 4 million views organically on Instagram. TikTok YouTube shorts like Let me now retake that video and make it much more hard hitting. I'm gonna put a banner at the bottom that says order now discount this. Let me change the copy. So taking the viral creative and turning it into an ad, the viral creative is building brand, the ad is building performance. We call this brandformance. Right. Taking something that's gone well organically and turning it into a conversion, a ticket selling app ad. Excuse me.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Yeah, that makes sense. Jumping over to like the franchise side of it, the franchisor side of it. How would you go about selling franchises?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

By making content on LinkedIn at scale.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Okay.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

You should be putting out three posts a day on LinkedIn saying the same seven things, 7,000 different ways of why they should work with you.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Fair enough. Yeah, we put out a bunch of content on Instagram, Facebook.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Instagram's impossible. Yeah, right. Like everything's about day trading. Attention 2023 Instagram is not 2014 Instagram. Right. Instagram's impossible. Meaning all that these social networks are a supply and demand. The reason I'm always loud once every four years is something is starting to have a lot of demand that doesn't have enough supply yet. Enough of you have been in my circles of content consumption that all of you can probably remember four years ago. I'm like, TikTok, TikTok, TikTok. And I mean everyone across the board is sad that they didn't listen to me. Even if they did it, they didn't do it as I didn't do it as hard as I thought I wanted to. Like, as I wanted to. It's like this almost unachievable game every time. I remember promising myself after Instagram that the next Instagram that I was gonna actually go 100%, not 99. I was gonna stop, I was gonna let them all run the agency for a year. I am gonna go 100%. I literally see TikTok when it's musical ly. When we were fucking in Park Avenue, I'm like, I got it. And I went like 49%. So I know all of you went 12%. So it's because it's supply and demand. I apologize. It's like real estate. Like, when TikTok popped, that was like Malibu popping 100 years ago. And like, do you want to buy beachfront property? Because by the time you get to Instagram today is like buying. You're not even in Malibu anymore. That's how far out. It's so mature. What happens is more people today, more content will be produced for Instagram than any day in the history of Instagram. However, in the last four years, 20 to 40% of that attention has gone to TikTok. They've lost attention. Today, more ads will be spent on Instagram than any day in the history of Instagram. Ads take up more attention. There's organic, there's ads, and there's attention. Very simple framework. So Instagram today is really hard. The only way you hack it is the stuff I talk about. Best practices of the moment. If you watch my like, look, I'm gonna leave in an hour. Please promise me to continue to watch what I'm doing even harder than ever before. Why am I doing a meme and then a video constantly over the last 60 days on Instagram? Why am I doing a two post carousel constantly where the first one is a meme and the second one is the video that you were accustomed to seeing me just post a video. Why am I doing that? I promise you, it's not for kicks and giggles. It's what is now working of this moment that could give you the most upside. When it's, you know, it's like, if you're the best player in your sixth grade football team, that's good. But when you get to high school, it gets harder to be the best player. And then there's college and then there's the pros. Instagram now is the pros. If you're gonna really go crazy, you gotta be the best. Whereas other platforms you could still be six. You know what I mean? LinkedIn. First of all, don't forget who's on LinkedIn, why they're on LinkedIn and what they're doing in there. They're looking for business opportunities. So your hard hitting join my franchise is gonna hit harder in LinkedIn than it's gonna hit even to the same person. If Zach and Jack are just in their phone on LinkedIn versus on TikTok in one place they're looking to be entertained or look at girls or I don't know, the other place they're doing business. You, the same person are a different person. So you got to understand that.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

And what are Your thoughts on TikTok ads versus Facebook Instagram ads.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

For the. So all the ad products are evolving by the day. Hey everybody, hope you're enjoying the podcast right now. Make sure you follow the podcast. That's why I'm interrupting. Let's keep going on this show, but follow the podcast. It'll make my mom super happy. So like when you asked me that question, it was funny how my brain paused because I have a hot take macro answer. But if I just double click a little bit, it becomes a very complicated nuanced answer. Right? TikTok, because it's an immature younger ad product, it can be highly volatile. It's like a four year old. Like one day could be awesome and the next day they could shit their pants. Like TikTok can have bigger variables than Instagram can, but it could be fucking crazy. Like one TikTok ad for you, given the visual, the kayaking thing could lead to incredible amounts of consumption on the consumer level, on the franchisee level, I would run LinkedIn ads. You could literally run LinkedIn ads against employees of other franchisee and franchisor companies. These are highly likely to, you know, So I think it's a mix and I think you gotta taste, but you gotta spend like $55 on the same ad on three different platforms to see what's brewing. It's the level of like, the thing that all of you need to think about is like if you're gonna get into peak physical shape, like that's a lot of work. That's a level of diet and exercise that is really fucking intense. Same in this game. If you're really gonna go there, you have to actually be great at it. You know this. The dream scenario is like why people take apple vinegar, like fucking pills. The dream scenario is I'm gonna tell you to post one video and you're gonna run one ad and you Go to sleep. It's just not like that. So that's how I see that they all could work. But I do think if you're looking to get franchisees back to the joke of you're gonna run out of family members, I think LinkedIn needs to become a passion.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Okay, yeah, I do post organic stuff on there, but I want to go harder on that for sure.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah. And is it hard hitting? Like, is it deep? Like, yeah, this is why you should be a franchisee for my shit. Like, that's a different. You know what I mean? You know, and then, like, really give that thought. Like, why should they? In a world of lots of options, what's the actual answer? And then that will force you to actually be better.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Use testimonials from some.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Of the other, of course, who's the most successful franchisee that's not related to you in the system, my brother.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Not in the system.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

In the system. Not related.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Was a previous tour guide that became a franchisee.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Right. I would have that person. I would do a podcast that four people are gonna watch because that's where you're at. Just like four people watch my early shit. But I would do it to get content for the ads, right? I mean, I would never, like, no bullshit. Like, I love giving. I give back all the time. I do tons of stuff. I would never do what I'm doing right now if we weren't filming this ever. It's just I can't extract enough value from the time I enjoy it. And, like, that's probably a little bit bullshit because I do genuinely enjoy this and do tons of things that are not ROI time positive. But what continues to drive me, besides wanting to support the Sasha group, is we're filming it. And it's one sentence to one answer. That might be what I was looking for right now. So, like, thinking in those ways, setting up certain things for the content, for the social, not for the thing. I believe almost everyone should have a podcast because having guests is a very easy way to get content. The Shed should absolutely have a daily to minimally weekly podcast because it's an easy way to create creative. Like, you have a guest, they're doing the work, you ask them the seven fucking cliche questions. God forbid the host has some improv capabilities and can find the moment. Now you're fucking. I mean, all of you live on social. The fuck do you think's in your feed? Half of it is fucking podcast clips and the other half is, like, people on the street asking you to, like, rate yourself on how hot you are. You know, it's just like. You know what I mean? Like it's not complicated, but it's very complicated. Meaning it's a whole new world. Create scenarios like kayaks can have two people in it. Great. I think you should do a show where you're doing the podcast while the kayaking is happening. Can you have three people in a kayak?

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

No, but we could have multiple kayaks.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah, right. But it's hard to stick. Three would have been a dream because then you could have one, the filmer and then you could have the interview.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

I am already working on that. I'm doing an adventure is clear series because we have the all clear kayaks and I go and interview the franchisee of every location or the lead.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Can I ask you something? I'm sorry, I'm stuck right now. I think you need to build some sort of thing and you should literally do a podcast that is happening while the kayak. I think one of the biggest genres of content creation is podcast while other action is happening. Like I've been dying for somebody to do a brushing your teeth podcast. Like I want a double sync. I want the host brushing their teeth, the guests brushing their teeth. That's the show. Like brushing through the years or I don't know if I can cleaning up the day or like literally I want a 24 minute podcast. I mean this one 37. My media company. I've been dying to do this. We have a show now called Cereal Entrepreneur and in the episode both people are eating cereal. Like hot ones did this. Right? With hot wings. Right. Like I was on it. I think there's 3,900. Thank you so much. 3,900 more hot wings cereal entrepreneurs to be made. I'm telling you right now. I didn't even know how many people fit in a kayak. If I saw in my feed a podcast where the person. Cause you're back to back, right? Like this, right. Like the person's behind you. Right. I think that I know enough about that. Like if you're the lead, if you're the interviewer and you're like alright, but what. Why didn't you start. Oh shit. Why didn't you start the business? Like that's fucking amazing.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Fair enough. I'll try it.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Like even your guys world, you could literally have a podcast where both people are robo controlling the drone while you're doing like I think people are fascinated when people are doing two things at once.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

I agree. By the way, was that Katie that just handed you that it was. I went to high school with her.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Get out of here. Let's get her back here.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

I grew up with her brother.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

It's very far. Ezra, can you get me Katie from my team, bring her back here.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Last quick question for you. How do I over deliver for my franchisees?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

By talking to them. This is a really interesting simple. See how fast that came? Super insight. By scheduling real time to hear the truth the way you can. The reason most people don't over deliver for their people is cause they don't want to hear the truth. You like that one, huh? Right? And it's hard. Honestly. As someone who's pretty damn good at wanting to hear the truth, Even I have 10% of the things I really don't want to know. But I need to like, I fight that last 10%. So I'm like, fuck, I'm really about this life, what I just said, and I gotta fight for the last 10%. These people out here are fucking in trouble. Like how one by one and in group settings, I would do a group. All franchisees call every month. Beautiful. But do real shit. One of the things that I think these two can speak to, you can speak to. When I do all company hands on, I don't set the questions. I just open it up for questions and let people ask me questions. That is a level. Like to the point where my team continues to keep asking me to set up the questions. Cause they're so scared of that level of transparency.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

She's like, why did you call me?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Because this man went to high school with you.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

I know. How you doing?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Good. You guys can talk later. All right. Go there. Like take that last one. That last one's a big deal. Cause right now you're in a vulnerable spot where retention matters. If you're willing to go vulnerable and be accountable, you're gonna have a high level of retention on that small group right now that are not family members. That will keep you surviving to when you break through on some of the other shit we talked about. Cool. Thank you, Jack.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Awesome. So kind of set up our content the way it runs. We have epic drone tours, brand platforms, and then my own personal. Our own personal brands. Then I've got my photography on the side.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Makes sense.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Pretty big following, but strictly swimming. So I just share photos there.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

But what you can't fear is the occasional right hook of like we interrupt these normally scheduled programming to tell you I fuck with drones too. And let me give you a preview. Cause I have to do this. And it's Humbling. Cause nobody even the most secure at the top of the game. And you know this, right? Like you see me on the team chat. I will post shit that I have to do that I know won't do well, but I have to do it. I want to see my normal 500,000 to a million views too. But I will take my 80,000 because I have to tell you that Sasha wants you to sign up for WineText and it's not fun to get 80,000 views. But I'm in the business to help my dad get you all to sign up for wine, which by the way, you should all do that if you buy wine. You're right now scared to fuck up the algorithm. You're picking the algo. And your subconscious insecurity of hitting your numbers over getting two customers from your photography world into your drone business. Isn't that wild? And you are like one of everybody else. So the people that got four things going on fuck up the thing that you have the most followers on from your ideology for the practicality of your business.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

That's true.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Stick with me on that. You got me? Yeah. Like if your photography thing is your biggest platform, they won't love it, but they love you. And if you're honest with them, be like, you gotta make the right piece of content. If you just post like a flyer and be like, sign up for the drone. Like, they're like, if you're like, hey, real quick, I know I'm fucking up. Like, you're self deprecating. I know, like what you want me from here. Just FYI, I. I realize a lot of you don't fully know me. Let me tell you about myself. I do this and that and I grew up like, got it.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Do you keep those? Do I keep those separate from you? You can where I do all the talking head and all that. Or.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Look, first of all, and a lot of you have followed me for a long time. I was always the one that was challenging you. Like do it all in one place. Da da da. Like I was always fucking people up. Now I'm set. Cause it's all based on the content. Doesn't even fucking matter. You want a wild card, Start a new account. It doesn't matter. You want to really get fucking liberated. It doesn't matter. Yeah, it's a real brain fuck to go from what we've been to where we're at. It's the content. It's the fucking content. So I think if you're respectful of your audience, disrespecting Your audience and your photography is putting up a epic drive, like flyer look stupid, like, you know, like a piece of shit post. We all know what that is, right? Like a picture that's like, fucked up and, like, sign up now, like bad. You making a video, you know, and maybe a double setting, like the camera and the drone in your hand and just talking and being open with your audience to your photography. That's gonna work. Keeping them separate or not. I'm literally agnostic. I think at some level it helps people organize. I'm, like, very chaotic. I think a lot of people, like, they over. You know this. A lot of you are getting fucked up because you care about aesthetic. You want your grid to look right. Nobody gives a fuck about your grid, you know, Meaning. I get it. I don't want to discredit people going to a grid and getting. I love brand, but fuck, man. 90% of the action's in feedback. So if you're doing grid for the aesthetic, but it's not following, best practice to reach the most audience in feed to what you're trying to do, what the fuck are you accomplishing? You don't get it, Gary. I want people, when they come to my account to see it, right? I'm like, they're not coming to your account because you're trying to make them look. Make it look right. You need the first part to work.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Awesome. So then for Epic dronetra specifically, we do a really good job of sharing. Our videos are dope.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Of course, they're epic.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

And then we do really well with comments.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

You like that? That was good. Give me some for that. All right.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

And then we do really well behind the scenes. We show all of our pilots flying and we travel across the country. So we try to get as much content.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Very cool as possible.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

They also send me iPhone videos and stuff.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Love.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

But what's the. I feel like we have.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

What else?

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Jab, jab. What's the last. Like, what's.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

What do you want to happen? Let's take a big step back. What would you. When you post something on social, what would you like to happen?

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Get customers, obviously, but.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

No, no, no. This is like a good game. Play with me. How many of the posts would you like to do that?

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

One every ten would be good.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

So this is a good game because one could answer all of them. One could answer one of them. There's a lot of ways to think about this. There's no right answer. So let's say if you're thinking that way, which in a lot of ways I think of it both ways. I think in those terms too. Jab, jab, jab. Right hook, right. But even when like, even when I like, I know that the other nine are building awareness and they may click the URL in my profile. In theory, all good content could be doing the sale. But back to you saying the sale. Back to me saying I'm gonna fuck up my grid. Sign up for WineText right now. Do you guys go hardcore for the ask for business on every 10th post that? Do you see what I mean? I'm telling you, there is a disease in marketing. It's called caring about the vanity metrics over your business. We're having a logical business conversation right now. I'm like, what would you like to happen? You answered. Really thought like I liked your answer. I think it's one of the smart places you could have gone. But you're not doing it because you're caring about the vanity. Meaning you don't even like you're caring about the algo. It's algo over everything for everyone. And for me it's business over algo.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

But then what's the business? Well, I guess it's.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Well, how would you talk, how would you talk to me if you wanted me to buy your shit?

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

That's I guess kind of what we're, what we're figuring out is like we can give the, you know, you increase reach by having better videos. It builds a better brand for the companies because they're doing something nobody else is doing. Is that enough?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Of course it's enough. What you're uncomfortable with is getting enough no's to make you question if it's enough. VaynerMedia gets 90% nos, 10% yeses.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

How? Because I think the people that we've worked with so far are the capturing the demand. It's people that are the go getters. They're doing the new thing. They.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I have good news for you. You're not going to convince people to be more ambitious.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

So is there a way to kind of create the demand by. I guess, I guess we have a better hard time getting the people that aren't already looking for what we do.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

You haven't, you haven't even gotten remotely enough of a percentage of the people that are looking. You're worried about convincing the non convincible and you haven't even gotten 1% of 1% of 1% of the convinced.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

That's what I was looking for.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

You got it, my brother. One of the great things, I really appreciate you understanding what Just happened. I would argue that I'm not sure if there's another thing bigger to my professional success than having the subconscious understanding at a very young age that you can't convince the unconvincable. Don't convince, just have conviction. I've been selling social media since 2009. How old were you in 2009? Good. When you were 12, I was walking around this earth trying to sell social media services. Nobody wanted it, but I believed and I found the small group that wanted it and that's why we did $1 million in revenue the first year.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Awesome. So you talked a lot about the consumer segmentations. We as mentioned, we have the same services that we do, but name 20 different.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Correct. The sentence you're going to say to a hotelier is going to be different than. Right. That's why I say the same thing 73,000 times in 100 different ways.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

So how do you. A feedback we have gotten is a lot of people that we're talking to come to our page and they're like, oh, they only do commercial real estate. They don't immediately see themselves. Then they kind of assume that we can't help them. So how do you.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Well then list them all. Like I don't know what the website looks like, but literally it could be.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Like we have that website and we're talking social. It's like when they. Well then if we do a cool shoot with the Padres for. We got four posts on the Padres.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Well, why don't you have the bio say like drone footage for anyone and any business.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

That's a good idea.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

That's a good idea. Well, I didn't get here because of my looks.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

And then last kind of one. So for a while I've always. I've been the one posting on social and being front which I want to do for myself. But we're pretty soon going to be. We are in the process of hiring social media manager.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Whatever.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

What is the best thing to have them start right at the beginning. Like I can have them do 20 things, but what?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Well, I think if you're going to hire someone, I think you want to ask her or him what they think.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Find someone that doesn't say to have a better grid because that's what all of them.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Right. If somebody said like, like this goes back to having a good strategy yourself. That's what you're here doing. Correct. Like some of you now will actually like all of a sudden that becomes your radar. I meet people all the time, I talk to people all the time. Like I get pitched to join vaynermedia at the airport while I'm ordering a coffee and I'm weird. I'll talk to them and when they're like, I can make your grape great, they're out. Because I don't agree. I might be wrong, but it's my business. Like this is what I believe in. So yeah, I think you should less focus on what you should tell them to do. At first you. It's such a critical hire at such a small business. You need to put yourself and there's so many talented youngsters. Like they're just everywhere. But you need to know what you believe and then you need to have them present to you. You're gonna pay them.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Then lastly, sort of the future organizational structure. So right now there's two of us. We're the only ones that are like salary and work with. We have two basically full time contractors. Contractors. We're based in LA and San Diego, but travel everywhere. We shoot in Missouri next week. Of course, we got two shoots here in New York.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I love it.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

So that's kind of the model we're going towards, which is having a network of contractors. Makes sense for the inbound.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Of course. Yeah. You're a production company rather than like.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

A franchise with offices and full time people.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I mean, becoming a franchise or you know, like it's an incredible business model. I'm sure you know that that's why you went down that path. It's one of those classic things that looks a hell of a lot better on paper than reality. And it's hard. The reason it's so lucrative is. Cause it's hard. I always say to people, like, they're like, what do I like? I wanna. Gary, I could be anything. What should I be? I'm like, be a professional basketball player. Like, that's a good idea. That's a lot of money. Like 50, like the bench players are getting 30. Like there's not that. It's not football. There's 12 players, right? There's 15 players. And they're like, what? And the reason I always say that is like, well, I can't do that. I'm like, cool, let's understand that's true across the board. You have to first ask yourself if you're even a franchisor. Are you a full time salesman?

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Basically, what I'm doing now.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah, I understand. But how good are you at it? Because right now getting some clients to do production of drone footage may seem hard. It's way harder to convince someone to change Their profession to do you know what I mean? So no, I think right now, look, I think you guys are so young. I think there's so much money in drone production companies. Way more than you can imagine. It's every day we'll get better. Kind of like social 2009. And freelance is a great contractor, is a great business because you're not locked in. And James knows this. I demonize franchise freelance. I always hate it because I knew what I was building something slightly. It was a good model day to day plus. But I want to build family like forever. So like I needed employees to become like I needed strangers to become employees, to become friends, to become family. You don't do that. Like if I was just going for margin, I would only freelance. I would only contract. It's smart. You're not locked in. You know, especially I have offices in New York, California. If I wanted to fire people, it's impossible. Like, you know, it's hard to do business in these states. So like, no, I think you got it right and I think you got a long way to go. And I think we talked on some really good stuff. All that mind time you spent on trying to convince people drone footage is good for them. Now imagine you only focusing on people that have already decided it is. That's why we crushed everybody we were competing with in 2009. Was trying to convince everybody of social media. I was spending all my time trying to find the 30 people that agreed and tried to convince them. Right.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

That's good.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yep.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

I talked to Juliet yesterday about it, but if you want to, our team is here. I would love to do a fly through through the office and show up here.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Cool, thanks.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

On something quick and then we'll be done.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Okay.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Yeah, I guess the quick one for me is since it's just been the two of us, we have a lot of overlap in our. What we're doing every day makes sense. And so one of the things is when we're. Jack's doing the sales, I'm doing scheduling. He's partially scheduling.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Of course. Of course. When you're a small, small company, you're overlapping a ton. That's also good because now multiple people know the full thing. And so as you grow like the first seven or eight employees, 15 employees, I think should, to the best of their capabilities be able to do everything. Cause now you've built infrastructure for scale. Cause you could truly divide and conquer. Imagine if for some reason you Europe passed a law and the opportunity was obnoxious. The fact that one of you could just go and move to Madrid while the other. You know what I mean? Whereas if you only knew 20% of it, you couldn't overlap. Both of you get in the dirt. Both of you do the bougie part. You just over mix all of it. There's really no bougie part at this small.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

It's the one AI thing. We do a lot of AI from the copy and asking a question side. What's. What's the one thing that you can use AI to go to?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I use AI to think about what's happening in pop culture. Like I ask AI things like why did sexy red pop. Why are corduroy hats coming back? I like consumer insights and pop culture. That's why I'm who I am. So I don't think people realize you can use AI to be your thinking partner. You can literally type into AI. What would get people to want to like use a kayak? You know, Insane. That is. I know right now people are asking it to do tasks. I'm asking it to think with me.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

First question, kind of going off of the messaging for the previous two. I think as a white label agency trying to be the agency's agency, it feels like we're pitching concrete, not kayaks or drones right now.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

That makes sense.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

How would you. Again, agnostic. Our goal is to get agencies in the door because we believe.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I actually think I actually am gonna throw you for a loop. I understand why you said that. I actually think it's the reverse. I got a really good one for you. So I understand that. Cause you're B2B2C. You're actually B2B2B. If you made content about the way I did, which is share best practices, you're going to get all. You may even get brands reaching out to you to tell you to work with their current agency. You're one very great piece of LinkedIn content away from 55 medium sized businesses sending that video to their current agency telling them to hire you. Because like if you just pounded again the same 15 messages. 73,000. You know the biggest compliment I get in my comments or DMs is when like Gary Vee, you say the same shit. Tired of you biggest compliment. I didn't think you saw that.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

I'm sorry.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Biggest compliment, right? Because yeah, like what do you want me to make up shit I don't believe in? I'm sorry. I believe in like there's only so many things you can believe in. And yes, I'm trying to interject today. I'll say Sexyy Red 5 years ago. I'll say dababy. But I'm saying the same shit. I'm gonna incorporate it to make it relevant. And I may pick up new adjectives or expand my vocabulary, but like, fuck, this stuff is tried and true. This is why it's work. This is why it's simple. Like, yes. And I intuitively knew it when I was a kid, which is why I did what I did. But now I'm fucking like double winning. I'm like, knew it and it's true, right? And so I actually think the reverse. I think the content that you are making about operational excellence. Think about this video. Seven cliche things that agencies do wrong. You can run that ad, you can make that content in different ways for the rest of your life. And I think you'll actually get the end. Like, you're just gonna like. I don't think your shit's boring. As a matter of fact, I would argue something really wild. I think if you pounded what I'm saying, you may expand into other areas. Operational excellence is needed everywhere. He needs. It's not an agency. If you do this content, you might end up having multiple divisions. Right? What's cool about what you guys do is it's universal. It's why I like marketing. The ability to communicate is universal. Everyone needs it. I'm chill all the time. I meet anyone, talk business. I'm ready. That's why I never have to prep for speeches. Everyone needs communication. The government. From the government of Dubai to a guy selling pencils in a B2B environment in Wyoming. Everyone needs communication comes in different forms. Back to your point. Concrete, right? But I think yours is universal. You selectively chose through the history of this company to be an agency of agencies. But operational excellence, of course, you know deeper nuances of agency life, but it's not hard to pick up. Like you spend one year with a franchisor and you'll figure, I know that to be true. Cause that's why I started an agency. To figure out how universal what I was doing was. It's universal. Make sense?

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I think you gotta pound that. I think you just own unlimited content of operational opportunities. Operational fububs. Cliche like pound, pound, pound. What's the most universal mistake you've seen agencies make? Like the true or a universal mistake? One that is quite common every time.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

You get involved, I think focusing on vanity metrics and not sales. So we are so focused on like making sure tracking set up properly. Because I don't give A shit about your click through rate. Like it has to bring the register for your end client. And I mean getting access to what we need to do that is such a fight sometimes. And that's almost insanity because like in our sales process as we're working with them, the focus is on performance, performance, performance. And then we get to it and it's almost like we're being hamstrung because we're being forced to talk about CPMs and CTRs when we just know that's not translating.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah. What I would do there is I would title a video the reason most agencies lose a client after the first year. Make sense, I think like that title why agencies rarely hold onto a client for two years. And then you run that on LinkedIn on ads against agency employees. Watch what happens. Yeah. Think about what I'm doing. I'm reverse engineering something that an agency owner would like to understand. Because what you just answered is the reason, the reason Vayner X is one of the biggest agencies in the world today is because I built it to do the actual thing, not the marketing jargon thing. You have a trillion CPMs. It's why super Bowls. The best and the scariest. The ad is the best. You can't get 110 million Americans to know everything about you for $8 million even if you're the best at day trading. Attention. The problem is crushing it in a 30 second video is hard.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

I think that's part of my fear. I know that I preach that, but then I see the CPMs on LinkedIn and I'm just afraid to even run too much budget on that.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Well, that's because you're a hypocrite. I fucking love you. Because what you know that I know is that LinkedIn, unlike every other platform, has an artificial floor on cost on ads, which is high. What I know that you also know but don't know as well as I know is but who gives a shit if you get the thing that you want to happen? And that's what you preach on the other side. I prefer to pay higher CPMs, almost always in anything that I own because I want the actual thing. I don't care about anything other than how many people sign up for WineText and buy wine. So the CPMs, if I'm buying low CPMs, I'm getting bad inventory. If I'm paying high CPMs, I'm getting people that are likely to buy wine. We figured this out with direct mail 100 years ago. You can buy everybody in town or you could Pay Amex to just send it to people who buy wine. Yes, of course it costs more. The data is valuable. The customer is more valuable for you on LinkedIn than it is on TikTok. I just want to just dive a.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Little bit deeper when we're talking about the franchisees.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

How do we cut through the noise just as partners in the B2B world for LinkedIn, specifically, the quality of the content. Quality of content, Right? Like, notice what? Like, I'm so fucking in it that I can give you that title to a video and do the video and know it will do better. You break through the noise by the merit of your skills. People always say that, Gary, how do I break through? I'm like, you have to be better. You know what I mean? But getting better comes back to what I want all of you to be in love with, which is more reps. This is why, like, back to saying the same thing 800 different ways somebody the other day, literally. Comments. Cause this is what I do, I read them. Gary, what is it? 10 times a post? 13, 23 posts a day. Like, you say all these different numbers, I reply, I'm like, bro, it's because I'm just living my life. There's no. Actually, it's just a lot. As much as humanly possible, Once and for all, as much as humanly possible. You're all gonna be doing it with AI anyway. You all, in nine years are gonna have 4,000 ads a day. So as much as possible, you know, that goes back to, like, how are you gonna break through? You're actually not sure, but you kinda know it's the same thing that closes. Why I'm good at content is I watch what works in real life and then I just make content out of it. What was the sentence I said to make the person buy it? This is why I'm unstoppable. I've been selling since I was five. You know, I've been practicing. I didn't read a book on how to fucking. What's that book? Influence People and Win Over. What is it called? Thank you. I just did it since I was five. Of course, I didn't have to read that shit. I lived it. I know why I was popular. I know why I was the fifth grade president. I know why 94 people said no to me when I rang their doorbell to shovel snow. Just like I know why the six people said yes and why the baseball card sold and why when I changed the display cases at my dad's store, it sold. And why when I Brought small bottles of wine at the front of the register instead of peanuts. That that was good. Because the small bottles of wine were 10 bucks and the peanuts were 9 cents. That was good. I saw it and I saw the 87 things that didn't work when I did it. I'm living it. You need to live it. How do you break through by doing so much content for so long that you start to get an understanding of the thematics that work. If you think that I woke up one morning and said, you know what we're gonna do? We're gonna make a meme that captures the essence of the video and we're gonna do a two post carousel. Cause that's gonna get the most organic reach. I promise you, I had no fucking idea. If you think I thought making photos that has a picture of me in it that then says, the person that's sending you this thinks. And then whatever the fuck we've written was gonna be the consistent million organic reach post. That is the. When I first posted the first one, I'm like, this has no shot. Pew reps. How'd you get those muscles? Outside of fucking cheating, which you can't do in business. No steroids in business, bro. How'd you get those muscles? I fucking worked. Even the really funny meme and culture of like, you're not ugly, you're poor. I think about that. I'm like, right, there's a proxy that made someone look more attractive. It was called money. Like, one could see that cynically in the way that I think we should. Cause I think it fucks up people. But there's a different way to look at it, which is like, nothing happens unless you do something. You know what I mean? Like, yes, of course, one could envy if you put beauty on a pedestal. Like somebody having the ability to have plastic surgery and this and that and that. But there's still something that happened. Otherwise it wouldn't have happened. There's always cause and effect. We're in full control of this, right? You guys can answer this. You can all do what I do. If you put in the 700,000 pieces of content that I did, you won't need me anymore. I don't want anyone to meet me. I want them all to do what I'm saying and never need me again. They know the answers before I do.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

I think last question that we have would be, what has been the biggest impact you've seen AI have on agency life?

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

I haven't looked. I mean, I can give you a ton of answers to That I think first of all the biggest impact it's going to have is on the creative product. But right now there's too much copyright and traffic, trademark stuff that has to be figured out, but that the biggest impact is companies are gonna be able to make 4,000 pieces of ads a day instead of four. Of course, back to what I said earlier, strategy is gonna use it the way I do. Thinking partner, like why are corduroy hats cool again? And you start working what will 42 to 48 year old moms at Iowa when he ready when he has a new franchisee in Des Moines, Iowa today it's not top of mind for him to go to ChatGPT or something like it and say what will get people to buy a kayak service in Des Moines, Iowa? But in six years it will be I'm old enough. James is old enough to know that people's first move wasn't to go to a search engine in 2000. You know, and now they do. Now everybody here is like, well look that up. That's just normal. That's going to be normal. Working with AI along the way of everything will be normal. So it's going to have profound effect and it will commoditize certain things. If you are a designer who doesn't have a thought in her or his brain and you just sit there and someone else tells you what to make completely you have a problem. But if you are a designer who ideates and thinks and you're creative, you're fine. That's it. Either you're a commodity or you're not. And I don't say that like dismissive. It's just the way the world worked. You know, most of us worked on a farm 150 years ago. Then tractors came and we didn't need to. I think as a matter of fact I'm so optimistic. I think someone now who is just like a non creative, non thinking designer and just a part of the. I think she or he finds something better on the back end of that. So in terms of storytelling, what's one blind spot that you've observed in mission based organizations? Whether it's something like the Shed or like Planned Parenthood. So I'm in a lot of nonprofits and when I join the board or advisory or come in to help, the number one thing I say is the number one thing that causes struggle with is audacity. They're audacious to think that just because it's a cause everyone should do it's audacity. Like you Know, like, I understand that my brother has Crohn's disease. I have a pretty good feeling that I care more about Crohn's and colitis foundation than other people in this room. Unless they're affected by it. That's how it works. That's why we. The biggest problem with the world is lack of compassion. Same with cause. I understand that all of you think that there's a profound social impact of the arts. Other people don't care. And so taking that knowledge to know that people that you can't convince.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Right.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Focus on the high propensity. Correct. But then focus on the micro realities. An 83 year old widow on the Upper west side who has a tremendous trust. Right. Thinking about those kind of. She's gonna be compelled with different storytelling than a young artist who's 24 who was born in Jamaica and immigrated here at 5. That's growing up in Queens is gonna think about the Shed and both can play. This goes back to and Right. And I remember my early meetings with the Shed, like really early. Even with the board, before all of you were in place. I remember listening. I'm like, fuck, this is gonna be a problem. And not from like a bad place. But I just knew that they were trying to understand, like there was incredibly good intent of bringing diversity and diversity of arts and all this. It was really cool. And I could see they were struggling with like how to make that connection point to like where the dollars and all these different things. And I was like, it's and it's and it's and you can do both. But from a storytelling standpoint, you've got to matter to the Upper east and Upper west side as much as you have to matter to Brooklyn and the Lower west side. And those need different stories, which is why they need different restaurants, which is why they have different schools, which is why they have different parks. It's different and it's. And our lack of capacity for and is hurting us across the board. Yeah. I think we talked a little bit.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

About at dinner last night.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yep. And not living in the. That's right. Everybody. Humans desperation to make the world black and white when it's gray is devastating. I could promise you almost everyone's anxiety here on any level about anything is based on and the nor.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Gary, do you think brand is more.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Important in the not for profit world.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Than the business world? And the only reason why I say.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

That is because the business world. We know who our competitors are. In a not for profit. You're competing for dollars whether you Know.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Whether you're arts or whether.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yeah, I mean, you know, look, I think it's tough in the way you framed it up. Like, yes and no. I mean, like, Nike would be out of business if it didn't have a brand. Like, actually, you know, like. I understand what you're saying. I think in some ways it's pretty universal. Meaning you just want as many people to not only know who you are, but be compelled to consume you. Right. Like, it's just very, like, I think about, like, Smart Water. I'm looking at that bottle, right? Like, that could be a purchase of convenience. Right. It might have just been what was there. But where'd you buy that? It was. It was here. Right. Fair enough. Why'd you buy it? Yeah, exactly. But I think that, you know, I think about that a lot, which is, like, why, you know, sometimes it's price. Oftentimes it's convenience. Whichever one was on the proper shelf. Which is why brands pay for slotting fees. But a lot of times in water, we've commenced a. Everyone, you've got to make a choice. I mean, even I was a kid when, like, you for damn sure, and definitely me, like, we didn't even sell water. It was in the fucking sink. I remember when the Poland Spring big bottles first started. I'm like, that's a fucking hustle. They convinced people to buy that shit. It's in the sink. I remember that. Now we're paying this shit $8, right? What a job brand can do. Brand matters everywhere. Brand is how you charge eight bucks for coffee. Brand is how we convince people to drink something that is free for most people. And brand is how someone decides to take a million dollars and give it to them versus somewhere else or to go to their show. Like, think about the options in New York City. I can go to the shed tonight and check out the exhibit, or I could do, I don't know, 700,000 other things. We're not in a small town. Right. You know, and so it goes back to. And you have 10 platforms that matter, from LinkedIn to YouTube. Right. You have 13 to. The thing you have to do is create cohorts. Yeah, please. You got time. Everybody needs to create cohorts. The consumer groups you're trying to get for them, they're not going to get Vaynermedia. And they probably understand that. I don't think they're, like, trying to get Droga 5. They have a good sense. They have a good sense of the range. But I also bet that coastal agencies may act Differently than middle of America agencies. Agencies that are run by 22 to 30 year olds are acting different than right. So now you start making cohorts. So their cohort might be 22 to 30 year old garyvee wannabes. I mean this. Cause this is a very good cohort. If I was their business. 22 to 30 year old Gary Vee wannabes, male GaryVee wannabes who are running under 10 person agencies. That's a cohort. Next is 45 to 60 year old agency owners in middle America who've been doing it for 20 plus years. Now all of a sudden when they wake up in the morning and they have to make content, they're like, they look at their cohorts, you can imagine they're gonna make a very different video. Literally the opening line could be like hey, did you start your agency because of Gary Vee? What we've seen from people, if they target people that follow GaryVee, that's like a good idea. Well that video has to be very different to like hey, are you tired of. Of the last 25 years not being able to hold on to right. And maybe in that one it's a little more midwest values than like maybe drop an F bomb in the Gary Vee one that's called cohorts. 83 year old trustee woman on the upper west side who's a target that tends to do really well for something like the shed versus 35 year old minority in a Brooklyn townhouse. Cause they made it themselves. Both could be in the shed and could be impactful. Need completely different content. Right. The. And again, which means your grid's gonna be fucked up. But if you wanna protect the grid because you have a board that looks at the grid, then you run ads and it never shows up on the grid. We also talked about a team account on TikTok versus a shed account. That's right. There's a lot of ways to do. Or you create a general account on TikTok that you own called New York Arts that just happens to only do shut it content. Right. Like for me I can make a. If my dad was rigid and didn't want me to do the right thing for him, I'd be cool. I wouldn't try to convince my dad. I'd tell Brandon, my best friend, to create a TikTok called Wines of New Jersey and just post there so my dad doesn't look at it. Luckily I won that battle with my dad 35 years ago. But if that was the case, which it could be for all the people that have a family business where your mom and dad is about that grid life. If you're about my life, don't fret. Just create convenience stores of Indiana on TikTok and just pound your shit. Cause now you don't have to have. Right? Remember the old game. But this account has 100,000 followers on it that we build up and I'd have to start at zero. Woe is me today. It doesn't matter. It's the individual post gives all of us a lot more flexibility. Did you get your question? I think my question is more general. Please.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

I've talked a lot about like convincing.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Yes. Yeah, it's been a theme. Not to convince. Yes. Have conviction.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

How do you navigate that as like.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

An entrepreneur or young professional? When it feels like when you are.

[Jack (Kayaking Business Owner)]

Young you have to convince. Like you have to get people on.

[Gary Vaynerchuk]

Your side by understanding. Well, there's two things as an entrepreneur. It's easy because it's you in the market and you figure it out by realizing it's true. But I think you're more talking about being an employee. You know, when you're young, as an entrepreneur, like you don't have anyone to have to commit. As a matter of fact, you could have a business and no one even know how old you actually are. It's when you're an employee that to your point one, first of all, the youth has it better than any other youth when we were all growing up. Like the youth today has way more respect from their elders in professional settings than we did because of all the technology shifts. You have leverage. People respect you on shit. You didn't even get talked to for a decade as an employee. Right? Like it wasn't even like right now I have people here for a year thinking like, when am I gonna be a vp? And I'm like, motherfucker, do you understand that you'd be getting coffee for the first next four years of your life? You wouldn't even be able to talk in the old days, like, you know what I mean? So a by recognizing you have it better, which is really comforting. Like there's never been a generation that's had it better. Which has led to some of the friction because they have it so good. Two, by being empathetic to them. You know, I think the way 20 year olds break through is through empathy. They come in hot. Cause they do know a lot of shit. But boy do they not know a lot of shit. I'm sitting here saying that I don't know 13 big things in business and I'm like about that life. And I have a lot of 20 year olds coming in thinking they got it and they don't. No one does. So having empathy for why your boss might think that. But to your point, you're absolutely right. When you're an employee, you are often trying to convince. But I feel the best form of convincing is conviction. And conviction looks different than convincing. Convincing is when you're trying to figure out what the board will say yes to. Conviction is telling them the truth consistently until you break through. Right. Agencies biggest vulnerability, by the way, to you is being yes men and women to clients. The reason we win is we have conviction and we let the chips fall. The reason agencies lose is they say how high Every time. They just want the money in the short term. Same with a board. The reason I can win with boards is I'd rather get fired. But I will respectfully answer the truth. Like for you to win. Respectful, conviction. Notice how I get things done. I respect that you care about the grid. I understand why you care about the braid. Now let's talk about the truth. The truth is it's an in feed game. The truth is I can still do my thing. Ready? I get a no. I've referenced that as well. Oh, I can't. Then I'm gonna run ads that won't show up on the grid. Got it. Conviction versus like these fucking people don't get it. That's all that I hear from everyone, right? That's where you go, they don't get it. Cool. Then the thing that I always do to inspire youngsters, I'm like, if they don't get it, you go do it. But as long as you're taking that paycheck from it, you've got to figure out how to have. If you're going to commence, it's going to come from conviction, not compromising. Convincing everybody. If you enjoyed this podcast, please go back and look at the prior episodes. They're loaded. I appreciate your attention and thanks for being part of this journey. See you later.