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- [00:00]
Gary Vaynerchuk
This is the GaryVee audio experience.
- [00:05]
Ed
We are talking about the future of the Internet, of publishing and of personal branding with the one and only Gary Vaynerchuk. This is crazy. Gary, thank you for coming on the podcast.
- [00:18]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Happy to be here, my friend.
- [00:21]
Ed
All right, so I want to jump into AEO GEO to start with because I've seen you talking a lot about search engine optimization for large language models. What people, you know, they're calling now Generative Engine Optimization. And I'd like to ask how that's showing up inside of VaynerMedia, your agency. So is it like, has it changed the kinds of people that you're hiring, the way that teams are structured or how you think about client strategy?
- [00:49]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Definitely how we think about client strategy somewhat team structure because we've added people that we think have heavy expertise. But when we think there's a substantial marketing shift, we don't think about it as a department or a couple of experts. We think it as a, about it as a capability that many more people need to learn. Not everyone, obviously. We're structured in a fairly classic way between creative and media and account and operations, project management and production. But there's def, you know, anyone, for example, that has been inside of Vayner as someone who does SEO, for example, now she or he has to up level to understand how AEO GEO is working. Otherwise, you know, they're in a declining field. And obviously growing up or having depth in SEO makes you conducive to thinking about how, you know, GEO or AEO is working. But there's people in media, there's people in strategy, there's people in creative who are also deeply now educating themselves and thinking about, all right, how are we going to create creative and social that may over index for anthropic Claude. Right. Or, you know, what are we doing with our own content, our substack, Reddit, you know, things of that nature that may be conducive to showing up more organically. And then obviously the, the just like s. You know, I grew up in SEO with Wine Library back in the late 90s, early 2000s. You know, it goes from SEO to SEM pretty quickly. And so, you know, this is already going from aeogo to whatever they're going to call it, aem, gm, whatever they end up calling it. You know, how do we think about marketing inside of these platforms from an ad standpoint, not just from an organic result standpoint. So yeah, it's, it's, you know, to us it's kind of like once I Deem if we're talking about Vayner X once I deem something as like not a passing fad or not something that may stick but something that is clearly going to stick. And I think, you know, I couldn't imagine anyone that's paying attention to this thinking that we're going to have a massive decline in end consumer searches on AI, you know, agents and bots and platforms. You know, I think this is just the beginning because I think even everyone's websites are going to be more responsive. And I just think it's a whole different era we're about to go into. And so we take that very seriously and kind of put all chips in and you know, create partnerships with people like Profound and others that are leading in the space. And so we, you know, this is, we're not taking this lightly at Vayner.
- [03:58]
Ed
Are you, have you been in the weeds at all? Just like seeing what gets brand cited. Like what things are more likely to get brand cited?
- [04:08]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Not yet. I, you know, you know, I don't want to bullshit you. Like there's certain things I'll go very head deep on. This one is, you know, again, this is what being a little older gives you some advantages around. The main reason I haven't gone real pen to paper and sat with the team and like really looked under the hood is my intuition 6 and 12 months ago was, oh, this is going to be like the old days of Google where it's going to be changing pretty rapidly. And so like every minute is crazy for me. Like I get it, like this matters and so like the nerdum that I enjoy quite a bit of, like, how is Reddit weighted versus how is general websites that are 20 plus years weighted versus how is social creative weighted then? I think one thing that people are going to be very naive to is I think Meta and bytedance are going to be very big players in this because. Yeah, well, social search is huge. You know, I don't think people realize how many people, you know, I just went to Japan with my daughter, 100% of her search for our trip was in TikTok.
- [05:20]
Ed
Wow.
- [05:20]
Gary Vaynerchuk
100% wow.
- [05:23]
Ed
You know, like, wow, that's crazy place
- [05:25]
Gary Vaynerchuk
we went everything and you know, they're going to have, you know, their results very affected by the content within and it's more, you know, and, and they're getting their kind of like results but then they're adding capability of going back and forth no different than what you would do on cloud or open AI. And so like, you know, I I've kind of got the pillars understood. It's really not my job per se these days to go in and help our client go from the fourth result to the first result by understanding of the nanosecond that Reddit this, TikTok content that, substack this, LinkedIn that, Wikipedia this, you know, foodand wine.com that. But it is my job to hire people and create the architecture of, of it being a religion. And to your point that there will be a time probably this holidays, my intuition is there'll be a day on December 28th when I'm bored enough while all the family's doing their own thing and like, we've scratched that first week of holiday itch and there'll be a pocket where there'll be three hours of downtime. And instead of watching a college football game or another Christmas movie, I'll probably ping one of my internal heroes and say, hey, you got, you know, I don't want to bother you in a holiday because I know who the psychos are and want to do this as well and be like, hey, two to five today, you want to really go in there with me? And that will probably be the first time I'll go a little deeper. I'll, I'll definitely get updated on oh my God. Wikipedia has gained a lot of influence on anthropic. Like I'll, you know, even as you hear me answering, you could tell that I'm not in some ivory tower, completely lost of what's going on. But I also haven't spent the 10 or 30 hours that I inevitably will probably in 20.
- [07:28]
Ed
It's not your job. Your job is to hire the right people.
- [07:30]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Yeah, but, but I think I'm making a point that I'm hopeful brings value to leaders, which is there will be 30 hours put in to like that nerdy. Because I do think one of the competitive advantages VaynerMedia has is I'm a practitioner as a CEO, which is incredibly unusual at the size and scale that we play out. I backed into it because of my personal brand and the family wine business and vee friends. So I have these other businesses where I'm the in essence CMO and hands dirty marketer and that's serviced Vayner extremely well.
- [08:07]
Ed
Yeah, I was at Dentsu earlier in my career and when I was at Dentsu we would look at Vayner, Vayner and the things that you guys were doing and we knew that like you were in the weeds and you guys were going hard and it was just it was so cool to see because I'm like that type of person too. And actually what I like about VaynerMedia is so on your homepage it says on repeat, like literally at the top of the page it says we put social at the center of everything that we do. And what's crazy is social, social media are those are some of the top ranking sites in Google, YouTube, LinkedIn, X, TikTok, Facebook, Instagram. And these get surfaced a ton. Like the descriptions for the videos get surfaced a ton. In AI, you can literally, you can actually see what ChatGPT searches the web with, which is crazy. It's called a query Fan out. So like you can literally like have made like tons of viral videos about this. You can just like right click inspect and literally see the searches that ChatGPT is doing. And what is it coming across? It's coming across the descriptions for, for. On. On social media.
- [09:13]
Gary Vaynerchuk
And in a way, in a way that is, you know, it's been interesting as you know, especially if you. What years were you@dentsu?
- [09:24]
Ed
2017.
- [09:27]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Right. So that was around the time where vaynermedia in the ad land started to go from like a joke and it's like Gary, this crazy wine guy, like, this is stupid to wait a minute, this might be something. And here we are almost 10 years later. And yet still, and you know this, the proper Madison Avenue Holding Company, Fortune 500, you know, marketing world continues to underestimate social media.
- [09:59]
Ed
Yes, yes.
- [10:00]
Gary Vaynerchuk
And, and what's interesting is this AEO Geo thing has not been underestimated by Fortune 500. To their credit, a lot of the 40, 50 year old leaders grew up watching SEO go from nothing to everything. And so this wasn't hard for them to say. I think the lucky stars understood that social media was television, but fragmented television and that was hard for people to make the connection. In 2006, AEO Geo connected to SEO. That doesn't take a rocket science degree. Everyone got it to your point, we've had way more clients in the last six months take our social media creative production capability seriously. Because of Dexing? No, because, yeah, because, yeah, exactly. Like I would argue, there's a couple clients who've read up for way more cost of social creative production strictly because they know of the collateral sawdust by product value that it means for AEO Geo. While we're making these how to or relevance videos for them in social.
- [11:18]
Sponsor Voice 1
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- [11:49]
Sponsor Voice 2
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- [12:17]
Ed
do you think AI is going to kill the Internet? So you've predicted a ton of changes in technology and content consumption. What do you think is going to happen to niche websites, to blogs, news sites, publishers and the Internet as a whole if more answers are happening inside AI tools instead of on websites?
- [12:36]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Yeah, I mean, I mean one, you know, let's, let's really nerd out for a second because I like the way you're thinking and asking questions. I mean it's going to change the face of the Internet, right? I mean the answers are coming from the Internet. Ed.
- [12:51]
Ed
Yeah. Yes.
- [12:52]
Gary Vaynerchuk
So you know, it's not going to kill it. In fact.
- [12:56]
Ed
Yes. But if you're a niche blogger and someone doesn't have to go to your blog to get their answer, they just get it from ChatGPT.
- [13:02]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Ed Is this 2009? That day has been over for a long time. Like if you're a niche blogger, at least when I grew up, maybe from my perspective in 2006, 5, 7, 8, 9, those sites were doing work because that was pre social media eating up the oxygen. Right. Like, you know, I mean between substack, let's call a spade a Spade. Between Substack, LinkedIn and the social media networks like that sports daily.com or like Star wars weekly dot com, I don't think that's been the most pro. I mean you've had it like I have websites. But that has not been the primary source of your reality. It's been maybe. You know, one could argue if you structure your company a certain way, it's the moon, but all the planets around you, your substack, your LinkedIn, your social media content. You know, I think AI is accelerating what social media started, which is the from going directly to the.com in your.
- [14:08]
Ed
That's a good way to look at it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause, yeah, people, a lot of people blame AI as, like the death of niche blogs. But you're right, it was happening. It was happening when people were going to social.
- [14:20]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Yeah, Ed, let's talk about Barstool. Let's just use that, right? Because Barstool, like, was a niche blog that became big. And I think people might know it, right? Like, you know, Barstool was a niche blog, you know, but really accelerated because of YouTube and Twitter and Instagram. I think every niche blog, you know, everybody, hope you're enjoying the podcast right now. Make sure you follow the podcast. That's why I'm interrupting. Let's keep going on this show, but follow the podcast. They'll make my mom super happy. You know, really runs on that currency today. And like, there's very few people that have a dot com that is wildly successful or solidly successful where they do nothing on social media content, you know, and so there was a layer. There was a layer built on top of the open Internet called Social that ate up a lot of the oxygen and became a layer no different than Google Search became a layer. And then to your point and everyone's point, this AI interface is going to be the next layer and it's going to consolidate that even more. That's just. That's a foregone conclusion.
- [15:34]
Ed
You know what? I think a lot of people are underestimating that's going to pull so far ahead in the next couple of years, ahead of other LLMs, Gemini, because Gemini is the only LLM that has access to YouTube transcripts. It's so crazy.
- [15:47]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Gary, brother, if you, you know, maybe you've seen this for me because I've started to put out this content, but it's been more behind the walls when I tell you YouTube shorts and YouTube has accelerated to the top of Vayner's strategy to clients where it was like shorts was like a distant fourth, you know, a year and a half ago. I couldn't agree more. Not only that, Ed. When you factor in the amount of human beings that use Calendar and Gmail as meaningful, utilitarian, operational, functional, how they live their lives, infrastructure, and the fact that Gemini is going to be able to pull from. Gemini is the actual only guaranteed winner in this era right now,
- [16:33]
Ed
that's a hot take. The only guaranteed. But you're right. You are right.
- [16:38]
Gary Vaynerchuk
It's the only guaranteed winner. I mean, obviously, I think we're all very impressed with Claude. I think it's hard to underestimate Sam and OpenAI just because he's psycho. And they had an advantage. But the only, like, if, you know, back to like, not wanting to be wrong on the Internet, for me personally, it is the. The only guaranteed winner for me is Gemini because of the stack they came in with. Claude and OpenAI started from day one with nothing other than their incredible technologies. Gemini starts with the world, is trapped in Google Calendar, in Gmail and is stacked with unlimited information on YouTube and YouTube shorts. That is a aggressive head start.
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Ed
Yeah. And it's just like if you want to get the best information and there are less niche bloggers now because these LLMs still need to get their information from somewhere.
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Gary Vaynerchuk
And that's why social is going to win. And that's why I actually think meta and bytedance are very dark horse. Like, where is the content? Like, you're making a very important point. I keep making this point. I'm stunned by people's inability to understand this. Where's the content coming from and the content that's being produced today? With all due respect to substack and to blogs and substacks, a monster. But it's the scale that social has and the complexity. Right? Video that gets transcribed into audio, like that gets transcribed into written. The depth of audio, video and in word, content that's coming from social. There's not a distant second. And then, Ed, it begs the question, what happens if people decide to start putting up garden walls?
- [18:29]
Ed
What are you thinking?
- [18:32]
Gary Vaynerchuk
I always think about, like, what are they thinking? Right? And like, you know, like, what is meta thinking? Like, does it. Does meta sit around and say, okay, so we have all this info on our platform. Like, what ramification? And I don't. This is above my pay grade legally. You know, I'm thinking from a core.
- [18:51]
Ed
I understand.
- [18:52]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Yeah, I'm thinking purely from corporate.
- [18:54]
Ed
Well, well, Google. Google literally did this. Google restricted. So previously, ChatGPT, OpenAI was looking at like a hundred pages of or a hundred results from Google. And then Google actually restricted the. This messed with all the SEO tools. But this was like an offensive measure from Google to make it so you're only seeing like the top. I think it was like the top 10 or 20 results from Google because OpenAI was getting too much information. And so it was like this parameter where you could.
- [19:29]
Gary Vaynerchuk
By the way, that was like, makes sense. We've seen this a million times. Toys R Us giving Amazon their infrastructure on commerce in the early days of massive innovation. People are naive. People make deals. People aren't thinking all the way through Right. Now that we all know, now that it's July 2026, and everyone kind of knows the new world Order, here's a profound statement. I'd love to see the math of how much net new content is going to be produced in the next three years versus how much has been produced for the last.
- [20:02]
Ed
All right, I got to. So I got to ask you about this. So as long as I've known your brand, I've known your brand for a long time. I read jab, jab, jab, right hook over 10 years ago. And so you've always been huge on posting a lot. And I'm also very huge on posting a lot. I made a video about how Mr. Beast was shocked by Instant Bollywood, posting 100 times a day on Instagram, getting 9.2 billion views. And that was crazy. But the thing is, with AI Content flooding the Internet now, is volume still the strategy? Is there anything creators and businesses need to be careful about? Just because, like, yes. Like, just so easy. Just is what is. Just reduce the filters, get everything out, post more. Or is there more to it?
- [20:46]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Well, I think there's a couple of things. I think, one, within the very narrow framework of volume on social content, you know, I'd love to hear someone's counterpoint when they set up. When people come to me and they're like, gary, now with AI, I'm like, okay, so what are you gonna do? Post less. Like. Like, it's completely counterintuitive. You know, I will use this analogy for people that know sports Ed, you know, the modern athlete, like an NBA, a bench player in the NBA today, the 10th guy on the Memphis Grizzlies. If you picked him up and took him to 1957 and put him on the court, the exact version of who he is.
- [21:34]
Ed
He's dominate.
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Gary Vaynerchuk
He's the greatest player of all time.
- [21:37]
Ed
Yeah.
- [21:39]
Gary Vaynerchuk
It's called evolution. I just want. I'm using this incredible platform to say something that people may not know about me. I'm not excited that volume is a requirement. I Wish this was 1957. Of all humans in advertising, I'd be the best Don Draper. I would have meetings, I'd be charming, I'd have a good idea, and we would fucking crush. We would sell lots of television commercials. That's just not where we're at. So couple things. Yes. I still think volume matters because it's, you know, the stakes are even higher, and I think even more volume. And I'm sorry that it's 900 posts a day, not one every three days I didn't make the rules. But I will say something is emerging that we're very serious about, which is the rise of analog. So one thing that is emerging with this extremity of output. I love how everyone's like, oh, all this AI slop. I'm like, the human slop was garbage too.
- [22:42]
Ed
It's true.
- [22:43]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Yeah, 99.9%.
- [22:45]
Ed
I put, I put out a lot of human slops. Me too.
- [22:48]
Gary Vaynerchuk
You know, you can't always nail it. And by the way, you and I are actually decent. Ish. A lot of people just aren't good at it and like all of the output they put out is not valuable to their.
- [23:00]
Ed
Do you believe that anybody can figure it out?
- [23:03]
Gary Vaynerchuk
I think it depends on how you define figuring out. I do believe everybody has the capacity to get better at making content that's more valuable to their audience if they practice and put in the work. But. But I think I can get a lot better at basketball if I went ham for a year and worked on every part of my game. But I don't think I'd become LeBron James for sure. Natural talent.
- [23:26]
Ed
But you don't have to be LeBron James.
- [23:28]
Gary Vaynerchuk
No, I don't have to be. But I think when you say, can everyone figure it out? Sometimes people see that as can I become Alex Cooper or Mr. Beast? And the answer is right. Probably not, because there's a lot of variables that go into those things. But can every. Can people go from getting 100 views per post for themselves or their family business or their business, their marketing to getting 100,000 views consistently? Yeah, I think, I think people have the capacity if they get educated and put in the work and get some dirt under their fingernails. Anyway, the rise of analogs got me very interested, you know, experiential marketing, event marketing. I'm very bullish on moving Vayner in that direction. And we've been in it historically through Gallery Media Group and events and we're going even harder at that. And I'm. I'm infatuated by that. I feel like we're going into this Barbell era. Extreme digitalization, robotics, AI social as like at scale, kind of mainstream. And then on the other side, events, you know, just like, you know, just good old fashioned, you know, what you're seeing at sporting events, what you're seeing at music concerts, run clubs, people going out to dinner, more pop ups. My daughter, for example, wants to stay in line for three hours to get a limited edition item. The three hours in line is enjoyable for her because she views that as a detachment from her Snapchat TikTok consumption.
- [25:02]
Ed
Yeah. And, you know, it's also like, the analog stuff that you just described is also huge for AEO and geo because you're having people write about you and share things about you, and you're getting all these brand mentions and you're getting backlinks, which is making your website do better.
- [25:18]
Gary Vaynerchuk
That's right. And the way we do it. And the reason we're winning so many experiential scopes is we're doing the experiential event, but we're also fully filming the entire thing. And it's a production day for creative.
- [25:32]
Ed
Oh, yeah. That's huge. And you get all this content to make out of it. Oh, my gosh. All right, so we don't have a lot of time left, but I want to ask about. About scaling a team. So I've. I've posted short form video every day since November 1, 2022. I've not missed a single day. I've done this daily podcast every day since July 5, 2023. Have not missed a single day. Like, literally no days missed. I do it when I'm sick. I do it when I have a headache. I do it all the time. And literally have not missed a single day. And the next thing, by the way, I want to thank you for that, because part of the reason I do this is because I was so inspired by Casey Neistat's vlog run almost a decade ago. And I believe you were an early investor in Beam, and Casey Neistat was doing the daily vlogs because of Beam. And so. And like, I'm. I'm trying to inspire people in the way that Casey inspired me. And I'm like, I'm from Brooklyn. Like, I see Casey running in New York, and I'm just trying. I'm trying to do that for other people. And I think. I think I am. It's amazing. But so the next thing that I need to get better at is building a team around my personal brand.
- [26:38]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Yeah.
- [26:39]
Ed
And so. So that I'm not doing everything myself, because I'm doing. I have an. I have an editor, I have a thumbnail designer, but I'm still doing so much myself. I have some other people. And so when you started hiring people to help with your personal brand, what mistakes did you make that founders or experts listening can avoid?
- [27:00]
Gary Vaynerchuk
One of my great flaws as an operator is I bring my charitable component of my life into my business at times, and I create nepotism. And entitlement by carrying people that are underperforming because I have this belief that I can fix them.
- [27:22]
Sponsor Voice 1
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- [27:51]
Sponsor Voice 3
This episode is brought to you by Facebook. So you were scrolling on Marketplace and there it was, the bike you'd been searching for. You sent a message and it turned out the seller was super chatty, kind of funny, and an avid cyclist. The next thing you know, you're in a cycling crew. Well, a community cycling group. The thing about Facebook is you might find more than what you're looking for, from a browse to a bike ride this summer. Find more on Facebook.
- [28:23]
Ed
Me too.
- [28:25]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Well, and I would argue, Ed, that's probably why you inherently felt warm towards me from afar and why I, even in this short period of time, feel warm towards you. I find it similar to what parents do wrong when they create spoiled kids. It comes from a very good place. But everything in life is best when it finds the middle. You know, the reason there's so much anxiety in the world is politically, we're pulling too hard from the left and the right right, you know, like. And so everything's at its best. Using that analogy, when it's purple. And I would say, as you're building your team, you need to be purple. You need to be a leader that does actually care about your thumbnail designer, your editor, your writer. Like you should care about people. It makes you a better leader. At the same token, you have to be capable of telling your thumbnail designer or your new project manager that if she or he is underperforming by your subjective opinion, you have to have the capacity to kindly give feedback along the way and then also be prepared to exit them and find someone else. My great mistake was I would carry people an extra year or two when I long knew that they were not capable of performing well. And so the answer to your question directly that I really hope helps people is higher fast, because Sometimes people take 43 interviews and they think they're going to be perfect at hiring someone you never really know until they're in the building. Who they are. You'll never learn that in an interview process. Number two, fire faster. Like when you know, you know there's a way to do it graciously. Make sure you give feedback, don't stun people. And then finally, this is the most important one. Ed, promote fastest. On the flip side, if you hire this next person, Ed, and they're like, you're kind of right hand producer and you're like, oh my God, Sally's incredible. Don't wait a year. Like give her an extra bump. Sit her down and be like, I see a lot in you. Similar to me. I. This is, I'm going to end with this because there's some agency people listening and I think this will really stun them and maybe motivate leaders. Literally. Three weeks ago, six weeks ago, eight weeks ago, we did a party for people that have worked at Vayner for 10 plus years. The company is 15 years old. We had 134 people invited and 97 attend. Ed, you know the ad game, you know this industry. The average tenure is less than two years at 134 people in the company that have been at the company for 10 plus years.
- [31:05]
Ed
Wow.
- [31:05]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Our retention are are like in the stratosphere compared to the industry. And it only comes because of what I just talked to you about. Because when I long game.
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Ed
Yeah.
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Gary Vaynerchuk
When I saw kids that were talented, I took the time and effort to tell them I saw that in them. We did the right things by promoting them earlier or giving them more dollars. What I didn't do as well, which is why I'm sharing this because I hope this helps. Someone is on the flip side. I didn't do as well of a job of exiting D players that we thought were a players in the interview process. And that would be my piece of advice.
- [31:41]
Ed
Gary, thank you so much for coming on the show.
- [31:43]
Gary Vaynerchuk
I appreciate you, brother. Stay well.
- [31:45]
Ed
This is episode 1099 of the Edward Show. 1099 Days in a row doing this podcast. If you watch this on YouTube, thank you so much for watching. If you listened on Spotify or Apple podcasts, thank you so much for listening and I will talk to you again tomorrow.
- [32:05]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Bye now. All right, good job, Ed.
- [32:08]
Ed
Just click stop. We're going to upload. And Gary, thank you so much.
- [32:11]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Happy to do it, brother.
- [32:12]
Ed
It takes a second and we're all good.
- [32:14]
Gary Vaynerchuk
Everybody, if you enjoyed this podcast, please go back and look at the prior episodes. They're loaded. I appreciate your attention and thanks for being part of this journey. See you later.