Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Girlfriends: Jailhouse Lawyer (Season 3, Bonus Ep 3: Is Abolition the Answer?)
Host: Anna Sinfield (Novel & iHeartPodcasts)
Guest: Lee Goodmark, law professor & author of Imperfect Victims: Criminalized Survivors and the Promise of Abolition Feminism
Release Date: September 22, 2025

Overview

This bonus episode dives into the question: Is abolition—specifically abolition of the prison system—a viable solution for justice, particularly for women who are both victims and criminalized survivors? Host Anna Sinfield interviews legal scholar Lee Goodmark to dissect the intersections of domestic violence, criminal justice, and the limits of current reform. Their conversation brings nuance to the ideas of victimhood, culpability, and the possibility of transformation within institutions built on punishment.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Carceral Feminism Journey

• Lee Goodmark’s Background: Originally believed locking up abusers solved intimate partner violence, but practice and research shifted her perspective.
• Defining Criminalized Survivors: Women whose criminal convictions closely tie back to experiences of victimization, including acting in self-defense, being coerced into crimes, or being present during partner’s crime ([07:07]).
• The System’s Harm: Observing the impact of prison on survivors fundamentally changed Goodmark's views:

  “Prison doesn't make people less violent. Prison exacerbates all the things that tend to make people use violence.” (Goodmark, [09:32])

2. The Flaws of Incarceration as Justice

• Failure to Deter: Theories justifying incarceration (deterrence, rehabilitation, incapacitation) fail markedly for abused women who act out in moments of trauma ([11:48]).

  “All the research shows us that deterrence is not actually deterring anybody.” (Goodmark, [12:30])

• Retribution as a Motive: Ultimately, retribution (“just deserts”) is the only rationale left, a logic Goodmark rejects.

3. Abolition as a Belief and Process

• Not a Concrete Blueprint: Abolition isn’t ignoring the need for accountability but recognizes we don’t yet know what truly just alternatives look like, since society hasn't built the preconditions (support, prevention, etc.):

  “Abolition has to be about building... I can't give you the answer to what it looks like on the other side, because I don't even know what the scope of the problem is going to be.” (Goodmark, [13:39])

• Reinvestment: Imagining what could be achieved if billions spent on incarceration went to healthcare, housing, and social supports ([15:15]).

4. The Imperfect (and Invisible) Victim

• Stereotypes & Double Binds: Victims are expected to be "weak and meek and passive"—usually white, straight, and middle class. Anyone who deviates (uses drugs, is loud, is a woman of color) is often denied victim status. Once charged, their victimization disappears from the narrative ([17:59]).
• Overlapping Roles:

  “People who've done harm and people who've been harmed, they're the same people. We treat it as though it's a binary, but it's not.” (Goodmark, [47:02])

5. Entrapment by the System

• Mandatory Arrest’s Unintended Consequences: Laws initially meant to help survivors (mandatory arrests) often led to more women being jailed.

  “Not because women had all of the sudden become more violent, but because of the way that police were implementing the laws…” (Goodmark, [23:26])

• Collateral Damage of Arrest: Losing jobs, housing, custody, and being labeled violent after years of victimization ([23:26]).

6. Truth, Narrative, and Journalism

• Complexity Over Certainty: Goodmark challenges the notion of objective truth in trials; what matters is the persuasive narrative:

  "I just don't believe in truth...It's just finding one version of the facts." (Goodmark, [31:53])

• Storytelling Dilemma: The push for clean, linear stories in journalism clashes with the messy realities of trauma and violence ([32:41]).

7. The Profound Costs and True Purpose of Prison

• Economic and Social Incentives: The growth of prisons isn't just about private profit; communities, the judiciary, and dependent economies all benefit, ensuring they fill prisons ([38:01]).
• Pain as the Point: The system is designed to inflict suffering, not just take away freedom.

  “We are a deeply retributive society. We think that people deserve to experience pain once they've been convicted of a crime...the pain is the point.” (Goodmark, [40:00])

8. Justice for Victims—What Now?

• Sympathetic to Demands for Retribution: Goodmark acknowledges why survivors (like Elaine from Season 1) may wish to keep abusers incarcerated, but encourages steps towards alternative reforms, like ending mandatory minimums, cash bail, or supporting parole for the elderly ([42:15]).
• Redefining Justice:

  “We have told people that when you have been harmed, the way that you get justice is if someone else is incarcerated. We haven't offered people anything else.” (Goodmark, [44:43])

9. What Listeners Can Do

• Engagement and Action:

  “Go into a prison. See what's being done with your tax dollars. Think about whether that's something that you're comfortable with...There are so many different entry points for people who are interested in dismantling this system. You can find something that speaks to you. So find what that thing is and do it.” (Goodmark, [45:17])

• The Power of Journalism: Goodmark praises Anna’s podcasting as part of shifting public narratives and making space for “imperfect victims” ([45:53]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Victim Stereotypes:

  "We want victims to be weak and meek and passive...But once you've been charged with a crime, it's like a switch flips...if you're the offender, you can't possibly be a victim."
  — Lee Goodmark ([17:59])

• On Prison’s Purpose:

  “The pain, the indignity, the harshness. That's the point.”
  — Lee Goodmark ([40:00])

• On Truth in Trials:

  “I just don’t believe in truth... It's just finding one version of the facts.”
  — Lee Goodmark ([31:53])

• On What Listeners Can Do:

  “There are so many different entry points for people who are interested in dismantling this system. You can find something that speaks to you. So find what that thing is and do it.”
  — Lee Goodmark ([45:17])

• On Abolition as Building:

  “Abolition has to be about building. We don't know what the scope of the problem is going to be unless and until we do the kind of investment that is necessary to build to get us to a place where abolition can be a reality.”
  — Lee Goodmark ([13:39])

Important Timestamps

• 05:30: Lee Goodmark on her transformation from carceral feminist to abolitionist
• 07:16: Definition of a criminalized survivor
• 11:48: Why people turn to incarceration and why it fails survivors
• 13:39: Abolition as a process and belief; the unknowns ahead
• 17:59: The imperfect victim and the myth of a "perfect" survivor
• 23:26: The impact of mandatory arrest and the snowball effect of criminalization
• 31:53: The myth of objectivity and truth in the legal system
• 40:00: Analysis of prison’s foundational harms and societal retribution
• 42:15: Navigating the needs and perspectives of survivors who want retribution
• 45:17: Concrete steps for listeners to engage with justice reform

Conclusion

This episode is a frank, challenging conversation about the failures of the criminal justice system regarding women who are both survivors and offenders. It calls into question traditional notions of justice and punishment and explores how advocacy, policy, and personal action might start to build a future without mass incarceration. The dialogue between Anna and Lee is accessible yet deeply serious, pushing both host and listener to question long-held assumptions.

Next Episode:
Anna previews a live festival discussion with true crime writer Kate Summerscale to explore the evolving role of true crime reporting.