The Girlfriends S3/Bonus Ep 4: Live from Wilderness with Kate Summerscale

Summary

The Girlfriends: Jailhouse Lawyer - Season 3 / Bonus Episode 4 “Live from Wilderness with Kate Summerscale” (September 29, 2025)

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Overview

This special bonus episode, recorded live at the Wilderness Festival, brings host Anna Sinfield together with acclaimed true crime author Kate Summerscale. The discussion centers on the ethics of true crime storytelling, the blurred lines between victim and villain, and the societal fascination with violence against women. With reference points including Summerscale’s recent book The Peep Show and the ongoing podcast series Jailhouse Lawyer, the episode probes both historical and contemporary cases, addressing how the telling (and retelling) of violent crime impacts collective conscience, public policy, and the self-understanding of writers and audiences alike.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Why True Crime? The Questions that Haunt the Genre

• Early Experiences & Historical Parallels
  • Kate Summerscale was drawn to the John Christie case (the subject of The Peep Show) due to her early exposure to the infamous wax figure at Madame Tussauds and 1970s film "10 Rillington Place" ([05:46]).
  • Recent high-profile cases (Sarah Everard and others, 2020-21) reignited her curiosity about violence against women, highlighting disturbing continuities with mid-century cases.
• Parallels Across Decades
  • Summerscale notes the similarities between past and present—especially concerning institutional complicity, police involvement, and media attitudes ([07:21]).
    • “I did notice more the similarities than the differences, yes… It was sort of easier to see at a distance in the 50s, the way that Christie's attitudes were so closely echoed in the press, in the police force, in the way that pathologists talked about the victims.” (Kate Summerscale, [07:21])

2. The Immersion and Obsession of True Crime Writers

• Deep Research Methods
  • Both Anna and Kate describe the intensity of true crime research:
    • Anna keeps victim mementoes at her writing desk, feeling the uncanny gravity of such objects ([09:22]).
    • Kate describes working with public archives: “You’re holding the same documents as the people who you’re writing about… it feels like you're sort of participating in it, albeit over time.” ([10:17])
• Emotional Impact
  • Handling real artifacts blurs the barrier between observer and participant, amplifying the weight of these stories ([09:22–10:17]).

3. Complicity and Ethical Responsibility in True Crime

• Morbid Entertainment & Societal Gaze
  • Anna raises the difficult self-reflexive question: are true crime storytellers (and their audiences) complicit in turning violence against women into entertainment? ([14:28])
  • Kate argues that while 1950s media was more overtly exploitative, modern media still participates:
    • “The subject is the suffering of these women. So there's some degree of complicity, but there are different ways of doing it… I made the decision to not include a photo section because there seemed no way of illustrating this book without having a sort of gallery of victims, mugshots.” (Kate Summerscale, [14:51])

4. Journalism’s Role: Witness, Activist — or Voyeur?

• Defensiveness and Outsider Blame
  • The work of 1950s crime reporter Harry Proctor is dissected:
    • “He blames his editors for sending him out on these stories. And in fact he did eventually have a nervous breakdown… He says, I only give it to you because you want it... It all sounds very troubled and defensive to me, as if he really is struggling with his role in this material.” (Kate Summerscale, [17:18])
• Positive Impact of True Crime
  • Some investigations (like shedding light on the wrongful hanging of Tim Evans and the dangers of illegal abortion) have genuine sociopolitical impact ([18:23-20:47]).

5. True Crime as Cultural Mirror — and Outlet

• Why Do We Consume It?
  • Anna and Kate probe the persistent audience appetite for grisly stories:
    • “You pointed the finger back at the audience, at all of the kind of sickos in the room today who like to listen about murders and read about murders and grisly things…” (Anna Sinfield, [22:13])
  • Kate's theories:
    • True crime opens up taboo subjects (domestic violence, unwanted pregnancies, betrayal)—giving voice to societal anxieties not often publicized.
    • The desire to “know your enemy” may serve as self-protection, especially for female listeners ([23:13]).
    • True crime provides a vent for dark feelings and can function as an act of self-expression ([24:04]).
    • “Now true crime podcasts, two thirds of the audiences are women. So that as a route to why are we so fascinated by it? I mean, one quite compelling idea to me is that there are stories that get told through these crimes that are not often aired…” (Kate Summerscale, [23:13])

6. Questions from the Live Audience

• Coping with Darkness
  • On whether the intensity of the research lingers:
    • Kate finds relief in publication, sharing the burden with the world ([28:47-30:21]).
    • Anna admits needing more “cleansing” post-series ([30:21]).
• Impact of the Work on Writers
  • Kate reflects on her shift from newsroom editor to lone author, cherishing the autonomy and introspection it offers ([30:40]).
• Monsters, Humanity, and Our Need for Distance
  • Asked about the media’s tendency to “monster” killers:
    • Kate notes that by casting killers as psychopaths, society reassures itself of its own safety and separateness, but cautions that this can hide social complicity and the ordinariness of evil ([31:59]).
    • “The desire to distance oneself from the murderer and to be reassured that you're not… one of its effects is to sort of say that this person has nothing to do with the society in which he lived. And I think there is more complicity than that... And I could see in some ways he wasn't exceptional. The things he ultimately did were. But his sort of fantasies and assumptions and prejudices were perfectly ordinary.” (Kate Summerscale, [31:59])
• Blurring the Victim/Villain Line
  • Anna shares how interviewing convicted murderers for Jailhouse Lawyer exposed the messy middle ground most people exist within, challenging simplistic narratives of villainy ([33:42-34:40]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the blurred line between victim and villain:
  "We're trying to understand what happens when you fall in the in-between, which is where all of us fall, I'm sorry to say... Even the perpetrators that I actually spend time interviewing... when you start to stop seeing them just as monsters, but as people who are a product of their circumstances, it forces you to look inwards as well, which is a scary place to be looking.”
  — Anna Sinfield ([33:42])

• On true crime's ethical tension:
  "There's some degree of complicity, but there are different ways of doing it... And in fact, in my book I made the decision to not include a photo section because there seemed no way of illustrating this book without having a sort of gallery of victims, mugshots."
  — Kate Summerscale ([14:51])

• On confronting our own darkness through crime stories:
  “I thought, whoa, weird… and then I thought, it's what I'm doing. I'm breaking into the window.”
  — Kate Summerscale ([23:13])

• On the therapeutic release of finishing a dark project:
  “Publication is in itself a kind of lifting of the story from a private sphere into a public sphere.”
  — Kate Summerscale ([28:47])

• Audience laugh line:
  "Okay, so now I've called you all sickos..."
  — Anna Sinfield ([28:29])

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Timestamps: Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |----------:|--------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:04 | Anna opens the live episode & introduces Kate | | 05:46 | Kate on her early exposure to the John Christie case | | 07:21 | Discussing the similarities between historical and recent violence against women | | 08:10 | On obsessive research and handling artifacts | | 14:28 | The ethics of morbid entertainment in true crime | | 17:00 | Examining the motivations and defensiveness of crime reporters | | 18:23 | True crime’s activist impact (e.g., death penalty, abortion) | | 21:07 | Is moving the needle essential for good crime reporting? | | 22:13 | Why audiences, especially women, are drawn to true crime | | 28:29 | Audience Q&A begins | | 30:21 | How writing about darkness shapes the writer | | 31:59 | Do we “monster” killers to reassure ourselves? | | 33:42 | Anna on refusing to reduce people to pure villainy | | 34:43 | Conclusion, thanks, and credits |

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Takeaways

• True crime is as much about the present as the past; history repeats itself in how society reacts to violence, especially toward women.
• Writers and audiences alike confront ethical dilemmas: are they honoring victims or exploiting suffering?
• The compulsion to monster perpetrators may serve to reassure, but it also risks ignoring the complexity and ordinariness of evil—and the collective social context that enables it.
• Telling—even dark or difficult—stories can bring relief, open up taboo conversations, and, at their best, fuel social change.
• True crime fascinates because it taps into our deepest fears, anxieties, and even desires; it provides a channel for exploring the forbidden and reflecting on the society we create.

“Stories are worth telling. Terrible events are worth exploring to find out where they come from, what form they take, how they manifest themselves.” — Kate Summerscale ([21:07])

Transcript

[Anna Sinfield]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Anna Sinfield]

Hey, girlfriends, it's Anna here. This is bonus episode four, the final one. And this one's really special because it was recorded live at Wilderness Festival back in August. It's going to include a lot of discussion about murder and violence against women and it's going to touch on the topic of abortion. But it's also a really fascinating discussion about the ethics of true crime and the roles we all play as part of it. So to the festival. Hello and welcome to our very first live podcast recording of the Girlfriends. It is so great to be here at Wilderness Festival. I've got a crick in my neck because I slept badly last night in a tent.

[Kate Summerscale]

Awful.

[Anna Sinfield]

But it was so nice as well. I'm Anna Sinfield and today I'm joined by Kate Summerscale, the author of the Peep show, which is a true crime book about a set of eight shocking murders that happened in London in the 1940s and 50s. The book Deep dives on the serial killer John Christie, his female victims, and the circumstances that allowed him to go uncaught for so long and potentially caused another man to be hanged for his crime. But it also brings up lots of interesting questions about the impact and role of true crime reporting, which is basically what we're going to be talking about today. So without any further ado from the teams at novel and iHeart podcast, this is the Girlfriends Jailhouse Lawyer. Okay, so fans of the Girlfriends will know that our latest series, Jailhouse Lawyer, I wrestle with figuring out my role in reporting that story and also more broadly with the ethics of true crime reporting, of turning something so kind of awful into a sense of, like, morbid entertainment. And I know that that's something that you've had to wrestle with yourself in your book, the Peep Show, Kate. And so before we get a little too existential about our jobs, I was wondering if you could tell me first, what drew you to this story out of all the grisly murders in the.

[Kate Summerscale]

World, it felt as if I'd always dimly known about it, like a horrible fairy tale. I saw the wax statue of Reg Christie at the Madame Tussauds Chamber of Horrors when I was about 8. And I saw the film 10 Rillington Place on late night TV when I was in my teens and I remembered it when there were the murders of several women in London in 2020 21, who had been killed by strangers, Sarah Everard among them. And I started thinking about that phenomenon, men who kill women who are strangers to them, just because they are women. And I started wondering why. And I remembered the Rillington Place story. I didn't even remember Reg Christie's name at the time, but when I looked it up, I saw various parallels and echoes with the more recent crimes. And I thought that by studying him and his world, I could get a better sense of the connections between a culture, a society and the violence it produces than by looking at my own time, which is almost too close up to see.

[Anna Sinfield]

Yeah, I mean, when you looked at those crimes of before and compared them to the crimes that you'd been experiencing in the early 20s, seeing these women murdered by strangers, did you feel like there was difference? Did you notice a difference between them? Or does it just feel like this sad trope of male violence has just continued in the same form?

[Kate Summerscale]

I did notice more the similarities than the differences, yes. Not least Christie. I discovered, like Wayne Cousins was serving as a policeman when he committed his first known murder. He was a reserve policeman during the Second World War, which was an amazing opportunity for catching women unawares and concealing crimes of violence. So, yes, I noticed the parallels, but it was sort of easier to see at a distance in the 50s, the way that Christie's attitudes were so closely echoed in the press, in the police force, in the way that pathologists talked about the victims. And so it felt easier to understand him as a product of his society as well as of his individual life.

[Anna Sinfield]

You brought up the press there, and a big part of your book focuses on this crime reporter called Harry Proctor. And you say in the book, and I'm gonna quote this, that he was successful because he didn't just tell a story, he infiltrated it. He embedded himself. I know that I lose myself in so many of the cases that I work on, and they're pretty kind of hardcore stories of people being killed or experiencing violence in some respect. Are you as obsessive about your stories as Harry Proctor and me?

[Kate Summerscale]

Yeah, I love the research more than any other part of the composition of a book. I mean, most of my research, because I write historical stories, is in archives. And so I'm going through old papers, witness statements in police files, transcripts of trials, photographs, maps, floor plans, and I get completely lost in it. And it feels, you know, as you literally are sort of touching the past, you're holding the same documents as the people who you're writing about and thinking about. And so I find it very, very absorbing.

[Anna Sinfield]

Yeah, I mean, I don't know about you, but on my desk, my writing desk at home now, I've got a kind of really quite weird and perverse collection of belongings and things that have been owned by victims in some of my stories or their families. And I've been gifted them or, you know, loaned them so that I can do my research. And it always feels so different holding, you know. For example, I've got a version of a book that was owned by this called Heidi's Family. In the second series of the Girlfriends, we identify this woman called Heidi who had been murdered. And I've got her dad's version of a book that was written about her murder. And it feels so strange to own that artifact and to hold it in my hand. It feels different from the version that I had when it was just from the library. Do you feel strange touching the past in that way?

[Kate Summerscale]

Yes, I have. I mean, maybe because they happened 70 years ago. I don't have so many objects in my possession, but they are just open to the public. It feels kind of miraculous that you can just order up these papers and artifacts sometimes and sort of be with them and touch them. And sometimes there are weird coincidences. I'll order a secondhand book on the Internet and when it arrives, open it and find it's sort of been inscribed to one of the characters in the story story. And then you feel part of actually a strangely close knit network or world and you feel like you're sort of participating in it, albeit over time. You're not there live, but the aspiration is to sort of be live. And in moments like that you feel like it almost is unfolding in real time.

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[Kate Summerscale]

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[Anna Sinfield]

There's a line in your book that really stood out to me because it's been something I've been pulling my hair out a little bit over is you wrote being complicit in a culture that made morbid entertainment of women's bodies. I believe you were talking about the journalism of the time, but as a true crime writer today, do you think that's changed and what do you think your role is in that?

[Kate Summerscale]

I think it's much more starkly visible in the 1950s. The ways in which the tabloid press in particular, but also movies and posters and adverts represented women were so sort of glaringly sexualized and objectified and for entertainment, you know, for pleasure, for male pleasure, principally. But of course there are versions of that now, but it's less in your face so you kind of see it more clearly. And in fact, there were murders that took place in north London in 2020, near where I live. Bieber Henry and Nicole Smallman, two sisters, were killed in a park. They were killed by a stranger who had a mission to kill a certain number of women. And afterwards the police circulated photographs of their bodies and talk about a peep show, talk about making morbid entertainment. But the press does the same. A book like mine does that. It's trying to tell a story that will engage, engross, grip the reader. And the subject is the suffering of these women. So there's some degree of complicity, but there are different ways of doing it. There are different ways of, of thinking and feeling about it and presenting it. And in fact, in my book I made the decision to not include a photo section because there seemed no way of illustrating this book without having a sort of gallery of victims, mugshots. So I sort of tried to use Harry Proctor in a way, who was also troubled by some of these issues and was the star crime reporter for one of the best selling tabloids in the country. Use him to help me think about what I'm doing and what we do and what we do as readers of true crime or listeners to true crime podcasts and so on, and to at least reflect on that as I go.

[Anna Sinfield]

Yeah, well, I mean, that was going to be. One of my next questions was in Harry Potter's autobiography in relation to people criticizing his reporting. He says, it was tougher for me to do than for you to read it. So why the hell do we do it?

[Kate Summerscale]

That sounds very defensive to me of Harry Proctor.

[Anna Sinfield]

It does a little.

[Kate Summerscale]

Does it does a little. I mean, I wouldn't do it unless I did enjoy it and find it rewarding and feel I was gripped and learnt things by doing it. And he goes on in that passage to sort of. He blames his editors for sending him out on these stories. And in fact he did eventually have a nervous breakdown because they wouldn't take him off. So he blames his editors, he blames his bosses for sending him out on the stories, and he blames his readers. He says, I only give it to you because you want it. You know, before you act moral outrage at me, you're the ones who want it. So it all sounds Very troubled and defensive to me, as if he really is struggling with his role in this material and the ways in which he and many in Fleet street carried out their inquiries at the time is quite shocking by today's standards. But that doesn't, you know, it's still a. It's all on a. On a spectrum.

[Anna Sinfield]

Yeah. I mean, obviously as a true crime writer, I also am going to endorse that it's a good medium. But I do think that there are some genuine upsides to some of the stuff we do. And you point out some in your book, for example, some of the essays and works around Tim Evans, the man who was hanged prior to Christie's arrest, that helped move the needle on conversations around the death penalty. So actually that writing helped make a difference.

[Kate Summerscale]

Yeah. And Harry Proctor was desperate to get Christie to confess to the, the murder of the little girl, one year old girl, for which Tim Evans had hanged. And it wasn't just a search for justice in this particular case, but also to expose the way that the justice system could malfunction and innocent people, because there was capital punishment, could be sent to their deaths. And so there was no way of correcting the error. So the Evans case was really instrumental in getting the death penalty abolished in the 1960s. It took that long. But Harry Proctor was part of that push to expose the truth. And the government was very keen to move on and cover up this stuff because they wanted to defend the justice system, but also the existence of the death penalty penalty, you know, continuation of the death penalty. So it's quite a political story in those ways. But it also brought to light the reporting on the case, the publicity given to it, also brought to light quite a lot of fractures and tensions in British society and quite a lot of desperate practices, such as an awareness about illegal abortion and how dangerous it was and how desperate single women often were when they became pregnant. And this was their only recourse, a backstreet abortion. Because Christie posed as, and I think acted as a backstreet abortionist and this was one of the means by which he lured women to his home. And so the vulnerability, it was a particularly dramatic manifestation of the dangers of backstreet abortion. You wouldn't normally expect to be murdered, but it was a fairly risky procedure in which women did sometimes die and.

[Anna Sinfield]

Were very easily exploited. Yeah, I mean, both of those examples are examples of crime reporting that's actually making a difference. It's having a cultural impact. Do you think that crime reporting always needs to the, you know, the North Star needs To be. We have an impact. We change things. We do something different.

[Kate Summerscale]

I don't think you always know what the impact will be, so I don't think one needs to be justified by that. I think stories are worth telling. Terrible events are worth exploring to find out where they come from, what form they take, how they manifest themselves. And also some stories, I'm very interested in the way that some of these terrible stories express the fears and fantasies, often the unspoken fears and fantasies of a wider world. So as a writer, as a researcher, writing about crime feels like getting access to a kind of underground emotional life of a society, of a culture, as a nation. You see, Start to see the things that animate people, that scare them, that they fantasize about. And so there are lots of ways, not all of them practical, in which a crime story, a story of violence can help us learn who we are and where we come from and how the world worked.

[Anna Sinfield]

Well, that was one of the things that I thought was great about your book, because you really pointed the finger back at the audience, at all of the kind of sickos in the room today who like to listen about murders and read about murders and grisly things and the darkest parts of society. And you kind of say, why is it that you want to participate in this grisly peep show? And there are examples of it in the book as well. There was a group of women who tried to break in after it was kind of all boarded up, just because they presumably wanted to be in this place where so much darkness had happened to other women. And people want to know the worst details, don't they? Why do you think people are so obsessed with true crime?

[Kate Summerscale]

Oh, such a big question. When I read about the women who tried to break in through the bay window at 10 Ralington Place, and I thought, whoa, weird. You know, and then I thought, it's what I'm doing.

[Anna Sinfield]

You're breaking into the window.

[Kate Summerscale]

I'm breaking into the window, yeah. I'm trying to get inside the house. You know, it's not so different. And people clamored at the courthouses to see Christie, to see him. And it was remarked upon sometimes that a lot of them were women. And now true crime podcasts, two thirds of the audiences are women. So that as a route to why are we so fascinated by it? I mean, one quite compelling idea to me is that there are stories that get told through these crimes that are not often aired. Stories about domestic violence, about marital unhappiness, about betrayal, about problems between parents and children, about unwanted pregnancies that a lot of the domestic difficulties that many women kind of deal with isn't aired so much in the pages of the press and certainly used to to be in the 1950s, unless through a story of a violent crime. So it gives us access to things that we sort of know about or half know about or want to talk about. Another thing would be that it's a kind of knowing your enemy impulse. Do you want to see the man who might kill you or what that kind of man looks like or what makes him, how to identify him, what circumstances the women who were killed by him found themselves in that that happened to them? So a self protective instinct perhaps is at work as well. Also, I think there are just our own anger, fear, maybe even violent stories finds an outlet in thinking about and learning about these things. It can act as some kind of vent or self expression. Reading as well as writing can be that kind of self expression.

[Anna Sinfield]

I get that.

[Kate Summerscale]

I get that.

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[Anna Sinfield]

Okay, so now I've called you all sickos. I was just wondering if any of you had any questions. Questions for me or Kate? No pressure. Lovely. Over here. Oh, wait for the microphone. We've got to get it on the podcast.

[Kate Summerscale]

So dark stuff. So do you have some sort of cleansing for yourself once you've done some detailed research and you've written the book, to step away? Do you need to do that at all? It feels a big relief. Maybe this is the case for any writer, but with a story as intense as this, and I did work on it very intensely, partly because there was so much material, I needed to go fast, kind of keep it in my head to keep the story straight. And there's a great relief in sharing it with other people in the first instance, your editor, a publishing team, that it stops being just yours. So publication is in itself a kind of lifting of the story from a private sphere into a public sphere. And people can read it, converse with you about it. So something that has been internal conversations becomes something that can be talked about and that feels good, that feels really nice. I mean, perhaps you're asking about during the process of writing. I think it feels like any job. I need, you know, company, different things going on. I don't feel that it's a particularly more difficult thing to bear than any other. It's something I'M interested in. I enjoy. I don't feel poisoned by it, you know, I don't feel I need to be cleansed as I go. I just need sort of light and shade, as anyone would, doing things for fun instead of things that are intense and purposeful. Yeah.

[Anna Sinfield]

I think, in short, Kate's made of strong stuff because I definitely need some cleansing after all of my shows. Any more questions? Got one over here, just in front. Hello.

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[Anna Sinfield]

When you go back to the start of your career to now, do you reflect on how it's perhaps shaped you.

[Kate Summerscale]

As a person and your response to the world? Well, I've had a big change of career in that I worked as a. A journalist for many years for newspapers. I was an editor rather than a writer. And I left to write a book which was successful beyond my dreams and enabled me to continue writing books. And that's all I do. That's been a huge change because I get to decide what I do every day. I get to sort of follow my nose, follow my curiosity, and I miss the company of the newspaper office. It's quite a solitary work I do now, but I. I love being able to determine my own path all the time, and I'm sure that has changed me as a person and how I feel my place in the world.

[Anna Sinfield]

I think we've got time for one more question, then I've got to wrap it up.

[Kate Summerscale]

Hi.

[Anna Sinfield]

So you were talking about, like, why people listen to true crime. Do you think that because in the media, killers are kind of shown as, like, monsters and stuff. Do you think there's, like, a need to feel separated from those people? What are your thoughts on that?

[Kate Summerscale]

Oh, I think totally, yes. I really noticed in the coverage of Christie how eager the press was to sort of monster him, you know, to either talk about him as a psychopath, a word I find quite problematic. Just a way of saying, like, not like me, you know, a monster, a creature, and the desire to distance oneself from the murderer and to be reassured that you're not. That is, I think, one of the pleasures of reading about crime, whether it's fictional or factual, and it's a totally understandable impulse. But one of its effects is to sort of say that this person has nothing to do with the society in which he lived. And I think there is more complicity than that. I was eager neither to glamorize Christie as this sort of great serial killer, you know, cunning, but nor to distance him in the way that the press did at the time and to make him so different. So kind of exceptional. And I could see in some ways he wasn't exceptional. The things he ultimately did were. But his sort of fantasies and assumptions and prejudices were perfectly ordinary. I mean, frighteningly ordinary. And I'm sure it's shared across the society. And I totally agree with, with you that one of the pleasures of especially like if you read a crime novel and you get to the end, and one of the pleasures is it wasn't me, you know, nothing to do with me. So feelings of kind of unease or guilt are dispelled by the identification of the murderer and the assignment of blame.

[Anna Sinfield]

Yeah. On the Girlfriend's Jailhouse Lawyer, which is the podcast that's coming out at the moment, we've actually tried to go on the other side of kind of exploring what it means to be a villain. We're trying to understand what happens when you fall in the in between, which is where all of us fall, I'm sorry to say, as we're neither perfect nor are we totally bad. And even the perpetrators that I actually spend time interviewing, I'm interviewing people who've been convicted of murder on this show. And it's realizing that they have pasts that have led them up to that point. And when you start to kind of try and stop seeing them just as monsters, but as people who are a product of their circumstances, it forces you to look inwards as well, which is a scary place to be looking. Okay, well, that is a fun note to end on. Look, that's all we've got time for today, so thank you so much, Kate. This has been brilliant. Could everyone give her a big round of applause?

[Kate Summerscale]

Thank you.

[Anna Sinfield]

So do make sure to pick up Kate's book, the Peep show, at all the usual spots. And check out the Girlfriends wherever you get your podcast, which is where you hear me. Thank you. Thank you so much to Kate and to Wilderness Festival for having me, and thank you for listening. We've finally come to the end of season three. The Girlfriends will return with a brand new season very soon. And I won't give you any spoilers, but let's just say I've heard some of it and you are in for one hell of a story. Plus, make sure you check out the Girlfriends Spotlight too, where you can hear more incredible stories of women winning. That's it from me. So I'll see you soon. The Girlfriend's Jailhouse Lawyer is produced by novel for iHeart podcasts. For more from Novel, visit Novel Audio. The show is hosted by me, Anna Sinfield, and is written and produced by me and Lee Meyer with additional production from Jake Otajevic and Michael Jino. Our assistant producer is Madeline Parr. The editors are Georgia Moody and me, Anna Sinfield. Production management from Cherie Houston, Jo Savage and Charlotte Wolf. Our fact checker is Danya Suleiman. Music supervision by me, Alice Enfield, Lee Meyer and Nicholas Alexander. Original music composed by Nicholas Alexander, Daniel Kempson and Louisa Gerstein. Story development by Nell Gray Andrews and Willard Foxton. Creative director of Novel Max o' Brien and Craig Strachan are our executive producers for Novel and Katrina Norvell and Nikki Itor are the executive producers for iHeart podcasts and the marketing lead is Alison Cantor. Thanks also to Carrie Lieberman and the whole team at W.

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[Anna Sinfield]

This is an iHeart podcast.