← The Girlfriends: Trust Me Babe
The Girlfriends: Trust Me Babe
The Girlfriends S4/Bonus Ep 3: A Girlfriends Guide to Navigating Police Misconduct
00:35:19
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This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.
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Did you know Tide has been upgraded to provide an even better clean in cold water. Tide is specifically designed to fight any stain you throw at it, even in cold butter. Yep. Chocolate ice cream. Sure thing. Barbecue sauce. Tide's got you covered. You don't need to use warm water. Additionally, Tide pods let you confidently fight tough stains with new coldzyme technology. Just remember, if it's gotta be clean, it's gotta be tied.
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Hey, it's Nikki. I wanted to give you a heads up that this episode will touch on police brutality, violence and sexual assault. You'll hear some tips for navigating interactions with the police and some incredible gems of wisdom from a woman I really respect. But we are not giving official legal advice in this episode. If you or someone you love has been affected by any of the themes in the show, we've left some links in the description that offer resources and support. Take care of yourself. One of the questions that victims receive the most, whether it's from journalists, lawyers, or organizations shying away from accountability, is why didn't you report it? The answers can be long and complicated, but they often boil down to fear. In Nico Quinn's case, it was the fear that no one would believe her. I was young. I was in the streets. I wasn't educated on the law. In Rose McIntyre's case, it was the fear of retaliation if I did not do what Golubski wanted, that he could arrest Greg or me or both of us. If there's one thing we've learned in this series, it's that there's power in speaking out like the brave women of Kansas City did. But I understand why people don't. It's a topic of conversation we've had quite a few times at justice for Wyandotte, including with lawyer Lauren Bonds. She's on our board and is also the executive director of the National Police Accountability Project.
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I grew up black in Kansas. I went to law school knowing I wanted to do social justice work and be an advocate for communities and people who were trying to make things happen, trying to make change. But we're running into legal barriers. I didn't know exactly what that would look like and what kind of work I'd be doing, but that was the reason I went to law school, and I stuck with it.
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As she began to practice law in the field, Lauren found herself drawn to certain cases.
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The work that I was always most passionate about was the work on behalf of people who'd been harmed by the police or in prisons. And jails. I always felt those clients felt like family. They felt like people I knew, and I always just kind of had the most passion for their cases.
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She joined the National Police Accountability Project, a nonprofit dedicated to ending law enforcement abuse through legal action and educational programming. Lauren is their executive director, and she spends her days working on stories like the ones we've heard. But as someone who grew up in kck, she knows just how intimidating speaking out can be.
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KCK is a very insular, integrated community where you absolutely could face retaliation. And I think that that's a real risk that everybody has to deal with when they come forward. Report police violence or police misconduct, but.
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There'S value in speaking out.
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Police are harming a lot of people regardless of whether they're speaking out or not. The Audra Lorde your silence won't protect you is sadly so true. When it comes to police departments with really severe histories of misconduct in abusing communities.
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Speaking out can be daunting, terrifying at times. But the police are supposed to be here to protect us. So it's about time we learnt how to work with law enforcement and equip ourselves with the knowledge of what to do if they fail you.
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I got you. I got you. I got you. I got you. I got you.
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In this series we've explored stories of police misconduct in Kansas City, Kansas and how people tried to fight it. But this isn't just happening in kck. There's cases of the police abusing their power across the country and around the world. So in this episode we'll explore how to fight police misconduct in your community and what to do if you or someone you love is a victim of police abuse. I'm Nikki Richardson and from the teams at Novel and I Heart Podcast, this is the Girlfriends Untouchable Bonus Episode three, A Girlfriend's Guide to Navigating Police Misconduct.
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I got you. I got you. I got you.
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Pretty much every black parent I know has sat their kids down and given them the talk. Not the birds and the bees, the what to do if you get approached by the police or someone in a position of authority talk. It's a dark rite of passage. But in a country where black people are more likely to be killed by the police, arrested for crimes they didn't commit and treated with excessive force, it's a necessary conversation. But besides putting your hands up and complying, what are you actually supposed to do when you interact with the police? I asked Lauren to explain the rights we have as civilians interacting with law enforcement. However, this is just a conversation. While Lauren is a lawyer. We won't be providing official legal advice in this episode. Every situation is different and these are just general guidelines that may not apply in every circumstance.
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I think a lot of people probably know this already, but your right to remain silent, your right to counsel, I think that those things are drilled into you, even if you just watch kind of tv, that you have those rights, but it's often, you know, harder to exercise them, particularly when you're getting these kind of ultimatums, when you're getting these threats from officers, I think it's really important that folks know that they can assert those. And that right to remain silent, that's not just something you can do, it's something that you should do. And the right to counsel, that's not only something that you can do, it's something that you should do things. There are actually a lot of situations where you don't even have to interact with the police if you don't want to. One of the things that we always tell activists, communities who are over policed, is the first question you should ask a police officer if they've stopped you, if they're interacting with you, is, are you free to go? Because a lot of times police officers are trained to engage in these interactions until they're able to get what's called probable cause, which allows them to search you, detain you, arrest you. But when they initially stop you, they might not have a basis to stop you and you might be free to end the conversation. So I think the kind of best advice we have for somebody who's interacting with the police is just to ask them directly whether you have to be there and whether they are going to require you to talk to them. And, you know, a lot of the times when you do that, they say, no, you're free to leave. I think it's really important to not trust the police when they say, oh, I just have a few questions, you're not in trouble, you tell me this and then I'll be able to go, you let me search this and then, or otherwise I'll have to take you in. A lot of those times, those kind of threats and those ultimatums that you're getting from police officers aren't valid and they aren't true. Oftentimes if you say, no, I'm still not going to consent to you searching my car. They're ultimately going to let you go if you don't consent. Sometimes officers will say, I'm going to take you in, or follow me to the station. Even just asking, do I have to or I'm not going to. I do think that that's another thing you should look out for. So even if they're being n, don't open the door to more questioning or more involvement.
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However, you have to prioritize your safety.
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The most important advice, obviously, is to stay safe. If an officer is getting aggressive, escalating, kind of yelling at you, that might not be a time to assert your rights. It's a sad truth, and I hate saying it as a civil rights advocate, but, like, the most important thing is that you get out of there alive. There's a huge threat of violence when you're interacting with a police officer, particularly if you're black, particularly if you're a black man. I think anytime an officer is screaming at you to show your hands, if they're saying anything that's indicating that they think you're armed. That is not a time to run. That is not a time to get rid of anything. Just show your hands. That's all you do. If you have a weapon on you, even if they're saying drop the weapon, don't pull out your weapon to drop it. I think we've seen so many horrific and tragic situations where men have been shot or people have been shot because they're trying to comply with an officer's command to throw the gun, show the gun, drop the gun, just show your hands.
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But what if you're not the person being questioned, detained, or arrested by the police? What if you're a witness to a crime or something that looks like police.
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Misconduct as a witness? If you see a police interaction, you have the right to record. A lot of states have passed different laws saying that, you know, you can't be within 25ft or whatever. A lot of those are facing legal challenges. But as long as you're not interfering with the officer's ability to do their job, you have every right to record. And civilians and witnesses recording these situations have been really important for accountability. And so not only can you, I would, you know, encourage people that they should do that if they see something concerning, they have the right to do that. Under the First Amendment, if you do.
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Agree to answer questions as a witness, you're not always required to see the entire process through.
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Ultimately, in most situations, you have the right to not cooperate with the police. If you initially want to raise something and then at some point it feels like they're trying to collect evidence on you or a family member or whatever it may be, you have the right to stop communicating at any point. So I think until you get some indication from a prosecutor or someone kind of outside of the police department that you absolutely have to participate, you can exercise your right not to participate at any point. Even if you are the one who initiated the charges, even if you are the one who went to the police, you do have the right to go to a different officer within the department. So, or a different investigator or a different detective. If there is something that is uncomfortable in the lead detective, you think they're doing something wrong, calling even just the precinct where they're based, or just getting in contact with their supervisor to say, hey, these are my concerns. That's something you have the right to do. And I would also flag. You can have an attorney, you can be represented as a witness, having a legal advocate to kind of protect your rights and make sure that there aren't any lines being crossed and that detectives or officers aren't using the investigative process in a way that could be weaponized against you at a later point.
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So those are your rights, but what do you do if a police officer violates them? That's coming up after the break. Police misconduct, it's a phrase we've mentioned a few times, but there isn't a quick and easy definition. It can cover a wide range of things from excessive force to sexual assault. But if you or someone you love has ever left a police interaction and gotten the feeling that something just isn't quite right, it can be daunting to try and figure out what to do next. So I asked Lauren what advice she would give.
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If you've been a victim of police violence, I think one of the most important first steps that you can take is making sure that you seek immediate medical attention. If it was something that was physical, whether that was kind of an incident of excessive force, where you were harmed or beaten by the police, or whether you know it was a sexual assault, whatever it was, if there was some kind of harm or injury you experienced, it's very important that you get medical treatment quickly, not only so you're healthy and that you can make sure that you don't have any long term health consequences from the event, but it's also very important for preserving your rights and, you know, helping your case. Emotional injuries are very important to address quickly as well. So if you can get into counseling, if you can get into psychiatric treatment, that's going to be really important because these events are traumatic. And if it's not addressed, if it's kind of pushed down, it could have real consequences for your health long term. And you know, aside from that, if you were to pursue a legal case, it's important to kind of show that you were taking steps to take care of yourself. Having corroborating counseling records is helpful to that end.
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The next step, build up the evidence you might need if you decide to report what happened or take legal action.
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See if there are any witnesses. Ring cameras are all around. There are people with cell phones all around. So even if you can't get access to any of those videos, noting where they are, noting who the people were who were involved or could potentially be witnesses, and getting their contact information is really important because so many of these situations, even with body worn cameras, even with dash cameras, it might be a he said, she said situation. And you want to have all the kind of corroborating evidence or at know a way to go about getting that evidence after it happens.
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What happens if you don't want to report it though? We've heard from so many women who for their own various reasons, were too scared or traumatized to talk about what happened to them. Nobody should ever force or pressure you into feeling like you have to share your story. That's a personal choice. And I can understand why so many people would want to keep it to themselves. But there's still value in taking notes.
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I think it goes to the fact that you may change your mind. You may be in a place emotionally, spiritually, mentally, where you feel like you can pursue accountability and justice. And having those kind of records and having that information is going to allow you to do that in the future. I would also say, though, you know, kind of independent of whether you want to seek that relief for yourself or not. One thing that we see over and over with all types of police violence is there are repeat bad actors. If this person did this thing to you, it's very likely that they're going to do it to somebody else. I think probably 99% of my clients, people that I've represented in police misconduct cases, their number one priority is making sure that what they experience doesn't happen to anybody else and making sure that officer has to deal with the consequences of their actions. And you know, that can't happen if people don't come forward. And so having that record and being able to turn it over to somebody who'd suffered the same experience as you and does want to pursue justice can be a way to support them.
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If you do decide to take action, you can file an internal affairs report.
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Most police departments do have kind of an online option to submit a civilian complaint about an officer. There are a lot of barriers in some places. I think Texas is one of the states where you have to do a, like, kind of notarized signature if you're going to submit any complaint on an officer, which is wild and difficult and definitely is deterring people from filing those types of complaints. But for the most part, there usually is information on a particular police department's website. Even if there isn't, I would say even just writing a letter or an email to a general inbox, you might get back from them, like, oh, we don't look into this, or we can't tell you what we're going to do with it. Making those documentations is very important for being able to point to that at a later date and say, this police department was on notice, this agency was on notice, they heard all these different complaints, and they didn't do anything. And I think the reason that that's important is because so often we focus on individual bad actors in police departments, but we don't look at the role that the institution plays in enabling them. And so often that comes in the form of ignoring civilian complaints, internal affairs complaints, and the way you can prove that they're being ignored and the community concerns are being ignored is to file on every single incident.
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What if you do seek medical attention? Speak to a therapist, gather up information, but then get scared of facing retaliation? While staying quiet may feel like the safer option, sometimes you protect yourself more by speaking out.
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In some ways, being public protects you. Like, the more you're out there, the more people are gonna worry about you. People are gonna know about you and worry about you if something happens, and people are gonna connect the dots. If you are publicly saying, hey, this happened to me, and then suddenly you're arrested for some bogus charge, People are gonna put two and two together, and that's gonna be a form of protection in a way.
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As we've heard in this series, the police aren't necessarily the best people to reach out to when it comes to reporting misconduct at the hands of their colleagues. So another avenue to justice may be seeking out legal advice.
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You have to find an attorney. That's really, really important. I'll plug the National Police Accountability Project's Public Attorney Directory. We have attorneys in every single state in the United States, over 550 across the country, who will do a free consultation, who will, you know, look at your case and be able to advise you on next steps. I think one of the most important things folks should know when they're going into this process is to make sure that they're comfortable with the person. You know, lawyers sometimes can be charming, charismatic, because they have to, like, talk in front of juries, but make sure that there's authenticity behind that and that there's care behind that. And I think one of the ways you can figure out a good read on that is how many questions are they asking about you as a person, about your loved ones? Are they interested in who they were? Are they interested in who you are? I would say another thing that's important when you're looking at an attorney is kind of having an explicit conversation of, like, do you drop cases? Do you push your clients to accept settlements? Have you ever fired a client before or dropped representation of a client before? And what were the circumstances around that? If we get a settlement offer, like, whose decision is that? Are you going to push me to accept an offer, or are you going to let that be my decision and stick with me, even if you disagree with it? I think another thing is to just see what questions they ask you. Are they asking you about what your goals are? If you tell them something that's kind of negative about, oh, my son who was killed, he. He did have a gun, or, you know, he did have this on his Facebook page, like, what's their reaction? Is that. Like, that is bad, or is that everyone's human and, you know, he's a kid and just kind of seeing how they view you as a person and view your loved one if they're suing on behalf of your loved one. So it's definitely not a science. You're kind of like, kind of filling someone out like you would, just as interpersonally. But there are specific questions you can ask, and I think that there are certain questions you should make sure that, you know, see if they're asking you to determine if they're going to be.
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A good fit like me. Lauren has spent time with dozens of people who've had a really tough experience navigating the justice system. Seeing a lawsuit through can have a real emotional toll on you. So it's important to weigh up whether taking legal action is actually the best option.
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The first question we ask somebody who comes forward and says, I'm considering filing a civil rights lawsuit is, what do you want to get out of this? What are your goals? I think it's always really important to figure out what you're trying to get out of the process. If it's accountability, if you want to put a spotlight on what happened, you could do just a media campaign without all the kind of issues that come along with a civil rights lawsuit, if it's some kind of external accountability from the internal affairs department, but you don't want to kind of sit down and be in a civil rights lawsuit for three to four years, we might say, oh, a civilian complaint review board might be a better route for you where you can get someone other than the police department to look at this, that there might be some form of accountability. If it's monetary relief or if you have, like, issues from the interaction that you're trying to get compensation for, you know, that might be a route. Well, you absolutely have to do a civil rights lawsuit. In addition to kind of, what are your goals? What do you want to get out of this? Like, what are your concerns? If retaliation is one of your concerns, you can file lawsuits as kind of a Jane Doe. Usually in certain communities and small communities, it's hard once you kind of put all the facts out there to really protect someone's identity. But there are ways that you can file lawsuits confidentially. Things can be filed under seal. And then I think, you know, another thing that's really important in terms of providing advice on taking legal action is really making sure people understand what it entails. Right. It's not just kind of, I file a lawsuit and six months later, you know, the court will say yes or no about whether I'm right or not. These cases take a really long time. They're really slow. You have to sit for a deposition. You have to turn over your medical records. You have to turn over sometimes your cell phone records. Like, it's very invasive. You really have to kind of open up your life to the police department that you're suing and the court. It can be really dehumanizing. People really need to be aware that's going to happen and be okay with that. And there are certain accommodations we can make to address specific concerns. But at the end of the day, you really have to make a lot of sacrifices to pursue legal action. And so we always want to be transparent about that and make sure people are coming into the process fully informed about that. And also, you know, I think to that point, it won't just be you. Right? Like, your kid might have to be deposed, your kid might have their cell phone records subpoenaed. Like, just making sure that there's a real understanding of what is ahead and what this process will entail is a big part of the conversation when someone wants to take legal actions. I think it really is just kind of having a conversation about, like, What. What's the worst thing we're gonna find out in this process? Like, what's the worst thing you wouldn't want anyone to know. It is really important that people go into civil rights lawsuits or any kind of legal action with eyes wide open. But it can also be really empowering in the same way that you kind of have to sit and have the spotlight on you. So do they.
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Legal action can be the solution to getting justice in individual cases of police misconduct. But as we know, the problem runs much deeper than just a few bad apples. So why have so many instances of police misconduct gone unpunished? And why can police departments seem so untouchable? That's after the break.
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I got you. I got you. I got you.
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The sexual assault allegations against Detective Galupski and the murders that sparked the Black Lives Matter movement are just a few of the many times police misconduct has become the topic of national conversation. It was a case in the 90s that led to the creation of the National Police Accountability Project.
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A group of progressive attorneys saw what had happened to Rodney King and said, hey, Rodney King isn't the only Rodney King out there. There are so many people who've been harmed by the police. We should be taking their cases. And it was at a time when there weren't a lot of people doing this work. And so they started filing these civil rights cases on behalf of victims of police abuse and saw that there were all these complicated legal doctrines and barriers that they were running into, and so said, we should start making sure that we're pooling our resources and our knowledge together so we can be more successful. And NPAP was formed as a way to do that. And for, you know, about 15, 20 years, that's really what the organization did, was this kind of space for attorneys who were suing the police in jails and prisons to get together and share intel and information. It was after the murder of George Floyd that there was a recognition by the leadership of the organization that we could be doing more to effect systemic reforms and make sure that not only were we addressing police violence after it happened, but that we were stopping it and enacting different reforms to stop it before it happened in the first place.
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So the NPAP began working on lawsuits and taking legal action against jails, prisons, and police departments that were found to have repeatedly engaged in misconduct. But some of the hurdles they've come up against get in the way of true police accountability.
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I would say, really at the top are police unions, the, you know, collective bargaining agreements that are in place which are the agreements between the police department and the city create all these protections that make it incredibly hard even to start disciplinary proceedings, make it hard to do internal investigations. So even if you bring in a chief who really wants to make sure that, you know, his officers aren't doing something wrong, that they're being suspended or disciplined or terminated when they do something wrong, or oftentimes they can't carry that out because of how immense the protections in a collective bargaining agreement are. I would say another big barrier is political will. In 2020 and 2021, we saw a lot of steps towards accountability. We saw a lot of steps towards reform, but so many of those have been clawed back at the state and federal level because of this narrative that we have about crime increasing. And all those things together have been some of the barriers to even kind of these baseline reforms being enacted.
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There are many activists, especially in over policed communities, that argue that the police can't be reformed, that the best solution is to defund or abolish them. Cities like Austin and Seattle have diverted millions of dollars away from their police force and into services that tackle homelessness, public housing, and social care. But other cities have tried and backtracked after realizing they weren't fully prepared for the work of reallocating funds or the effect that reducing the police could have on preventing crime. I've seen firsthand the harm that the police can have on a community. But like other activists, I've made the choice to try and work with the authorities to enact reform. It's not a path that everyone agrees with, and I can understand why. So I asked Lauren why she has chosen to do the same in spite of all the barriers.
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People are killed by the police every day in America. And you know, we can't just say, oh, let's, let's dream of a better future, because, you know, police are always going to be trash. People need relief and help. Right now, I think that there's a lot of policy merits to abolition and defund, but I think we are at a place where we're kind of meeting the system where it's at in trying to make sure that people who are harmed today have some form of relief or like that the bare minimum is happening in terms of accountability. Because when you look at it, people are saying, you know, this doesn't work, reform doesn't work. But very few police departments have actually enacted any kind of meaningful reforms. Even our existing thoughts of what accountability systems should be aren't in place. And so I think the kind of approach we have at npap. And the reason that I'm passionate about working at this organization is because it's really meeting real needs. And so even if these are incremental changes or small changes, if it's, you know, making that three people killed by the police, one person killed by police every day, that's important. That's important to those families who aren't going to lose a loved one to police violence. That's important to communities that might feel even slightly less over policed. And it can have a real impact. And so that's kind of our approach and our thought process around the steps that we're taking to change policing.
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Lauren has seen the impact that challenging the police to enact reform can have. She told me about a case she's working on that involves a police department in a small town in the south, a state where the government hasn't done much to push back against police misconduct.
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C
I mean, there was just zero accountability there. You know, it was a small town, there wasn't a civilian review board. You know, the mayor and the city council were all very close with the police department. But it was a place where there was incredible amounts of abuse. There were these roadblocks that were being erected, you know, kind of blocking the street and kind of like a military takeover almost, and targeting black citizens, the majority black town targeting black citizens for ticketing and stops and searches of their vehicle. We came in, we filed a lawsuit, and even though that lawsuit is ongoing, as soon as we filed the lawsuit, there were a number of changes, right? Like all these things that people were going to city council meetings complaining about and had been ignored. Once there was a lawsuit and there was a spotlight on them, they started cleaning up their act. Not completely, but in terms of reducing the number of roadblocks that they were erecting, you know, being more thoughtful about, like, who they were arresting, using less force in incidents, giving people the benefit of the doubt instead of tickets. Just the very fact of filing a lawsuit and putting a spotlight on the situation and saying, hey, these are actually legal violations and we feel so serious about them, we're willing to take them to a federal court, that having a kind of immediate change in people's lives was really rewarding and really encouraging. And they recently elected a new mayor who's a very kind of reform minded mayor. So I think only better things are to come. And so I would just say that, you know, a lot of times there are these police departments that feel like they are just so rotted to the core that they can't change and that there's no way it's going to get better or policing as a whole is going to get better. But I think we as civilians, we as people in the community really have more control over that than we give ourselves credit for. When we stand up, when we push back, when we put a spotlight on somewhere, things aren't going to completely change. There's still going to be problems. I think that there are some fundamental flaws with policing that aren't going to be fixed for a long time. But even these kind of incremental changes can have a huge impact.
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So what do you do if you're seeing instances of police misconduct in your community? What Khadijah and I and other activists in our community did was to keep showing up, asking questions and challenging the authorities. It can be easy to fall into a us versus them mentality. And in cases like the ones we've heard, it does often feel that way. But the police and local government are supposed to work for us, make our community safer. So it's essential that regular people take it upon themselves to fight for accountability. Because if we don't do it, who will?
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C
If you're seeing something wrong, if you're like feeling like this just isn't working, if you're feeling like you don't know what steps to take in order to improve the police department or policing in your community, step one is to do some self education, right? Like who is your police chief? Is he elected? Okay, if he's elected, like when's his next campaign? Is there somebody we can get to run against him? I think really step one is getting the information. If you're seeing a lot of use of force, like can I do an open records request and get access to the use of force policy and see if that's where the problem's coming from. Is this an issue with training? So really figuring out like what is the source of these problems and getting that information I feel like is such an important step and can be so empowering. And once you're educated, you should really feel empowered to kind of educate others. Elected officials, your other people in your community. You have more allies out there than you know. And so kind of showing up at city council meetings, at police accountability board meetings, if you have one. And then, you know, I think in this world where we have so much digital advocacy, like just looking and seeing who else is out there, who else is doing this work and plugging in, you're going to find like minded folks and together you're going to be able to make a bigger splash than you could alone.
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Activism can seem exciting and empowering at first, but the road to progress can be long and frustrating. If I'm honest, Khadijah and I have probably experienced more disappointments than major wins, but we keep fighting.
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C
I don't think it's an option to say we just have to deal with this. We just have to give up. We just have to wait for something else to happen. Like people are suffering right now. People are dealing with police violence right now. They're dealing with all kinds of misconduct and harm. We have to keep doing this work and we should feel inspired to do this work because there are so many people who are being so brave and stepping forward and saying, you know, this happened to me and I don't think it should happen to anybody else. We should stand by them and stand with them because we're always more effective when we're working together than working alone.
- [33:09]
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A huge thank you to Lauren Bonds for joining us and sharing all her wisdom. I hope this episode gave you some practical insights on how to know your rights and advocate for you, your loved ones and your local community. If you want to learn more about the National Police Accountability Project, follow us on Instagram.
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We are NPAPjustice on Instagram. We provide just about all of our updates on there. We're also on bluesky, same handle. And we have a website as well, National Police Accountability Project. So just Google us. You will find us around.
- [33:50]
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In the next episode of the Girlfriend's Untouchable, our producer Rufaro will be speaking to District Attorney Mark Dupree about how to weed out corruption and make a change.
- [34:02]
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It's one thing to know corruption exists. It's a whole other thing when you're actually in the system and you're the DA and you actually have the evidence to show I wasn't tripping. It was a shock. I was like, oh wow.
- [34:29]
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The Girlfriend's Untouchable is produced by Novel for iHeart podcast. For more from Novel, visit Novel Audio. The show is narrated by me, Nikki Richardson. It was written and produced by Rufaro Mazaroora.
- [34:45]
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The editor is Joe Wheeler.
- [34:47]
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Our assistant producer is Mohamed Ahmed. The researcher is Zayana Youssef. Production management from Sheree Houston and Joe Savage. The fact checker is Findle Fulton. Sound design, mixing and scoring by Daniel Kimson with additional engineering by Nicholas Alexander. Music supervision by Rufaro Mazurua, Nicholas Alexander and Joe Wheeler. Original music by Amanda Jones. The series artwork was designed by Christina Lempool. Novel's director of development is Selena Mehta. Willard Foxton is Novel's creative director of development. Max o' Brien and Craig Strachan are executive producers for Novel. Katrina Norvell and Nikki Itor are the executive producers for iHeart podcast, and the marketing lead is Allison Cantor.
- [35:38]
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Special thanks to Will Pearson and a special thanks to Karlie Frankel and the whole team at wme. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.