The Girlfriends S5/Bonus Ep 1: Get Back Down Here Off Your High Horse

Summary

Podcast Summary:

The Girlfriends: Trust Me Babe — S5/Bonus Ep 1: Get Back Down Here Off Your High Horse
Hosts: Anna Sinfield (Novel, iHeartPodcasts)
Guest: Rachel Monroe (journalist, The Atlantic)
Release Date: May 25, 2026

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Overview

In this bonus episode, host Anna Sinfield sits down with journalist Rachel Monroe to reflect on Monroe’s acclaimed coverage of Derek Alldred, a prolific romance scammer who defrauded women around the United States. The conversation dives into the lasting effects of romance scams, societal victim-blaming, the emotional complexity of these crimes, and how shared experiences among survivors led to a fiercely supportive community. Both Anna and Rachel thoughtfully examine the nuances of telling these stories, the pitfalls and ethics of true crime storytelling, and the very human vulnerabilities that render anyone susceptible to romance scams.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins of Rachel Monroe's Investigation (02:45–04:41)

• Rachel Monroe began covering the case when Derek Alldred had been arrested but not yet sentenced.
• The scope of Alldred’s crimes expanded beyond one-off incidents, revealing a larger, connected pattern.
• Rachel credits Lauren Lomanchik, a Minneapolis reporter who had broken much of the story earlier.

Quote (Rachel):
"I think they wanted to share about the case and, like, make it really clear that this was a pattern of behavior. But also, at the same time, they were cautious because he'd been caught so many times before, and it hadn't really seemed to matter." (03:13)

2. Barriers to Telling the Story — Victim-Blaming and Hesitancy (04:41–05:32)

• Many survivors were reluctant to speak due to the harsh judgment and victim-blaming endured publicly and in the media.
• Even carefully reported stories subjected women at the center to criticism over naivety or supposed stupidity.
• The scam often did not involve directly giving money; rather, Alldred would steal or manipulate financial access.

Quote (Rachel):
"I can't describe the bashing that the public gave us. People are very powerful behind their computers." (04:50)

3. Wider Impact and Emotional Consequences (06:16–07:02, 10:30–11:35)

• Public reactions are tinged with self-protective superiority: readers comfort themselves that they “wouldn’t fall for it.”
• Rachel notes how real scams prey on universal vulnerabilities and emotional needs, not on a lack of intelligence.
• Emotional ramifications are profound: loss of self-trust, trust in others, and sense of security.

Quote (Rachel):
"You can kind of intellectually know, like, oh, this could happen to anybody. But truly, these techniques are time tested and they really work, which means they could work on any of us." (06:46)

Quote (Rachel):
"It’s one thing to lose a bunch of money, and it’s another thing to lose trust in yourself and lose trust in the world." (09:50)

4. Reporting Challenges — Building Trust with Survivors (11:52–12:27, 12:47–14:55)

• Survivors, traumatized both by the scam and by public perception, remained cautious when approached by journalists.
• Rachel describes a unique breakthrough interviewing a survivor, Linda, while they got pedicures, which allowed a moment of real connection and solidarity.
• Another friendship, between survivors Linda and Missy (who discovered Linda’s credit card among the scammer’s possessions), underscored the vital support these women provided one another.

Quote (Rachel):
"There was some feeling of, like, female solidarity, I think, in just sitting side by side talking about her dating life before, during, and after this guy." (12:47)

5. Who Gets Targeted? Dispelling Stereotypes (15:02–15:32)

• Alldred’s targets were mostly thriving, professional, “savvy” women; what they had in common was not naivete but success and openness.
• The scam’s breadth shows that anyone seeking love could, under the right circumstances, be vulnerable.

Quote (Rachel):
"If anything, the pattern was that these were all like, kind of savvy, professional women." (15:02)

6. Public Reception and the Cycle of Victim-Blaming (16:00–17:07, 21:38–23:17)

• Rachel received a flood of emails from people with similar stories, demonstrating how widespread and underreported these romance scams are.
• The media and public often inflict a "secondary harm" through victim-blaming, compounding trauma.
• Both Anna and Rachel discuss the ethical challenges of portraying victims, the temptation to only describe them as “smart” to head off criticism, and the harm inherent in that narrative.

Quote (Rachel):
"There was like the original harm of being lied to and stolen from by this man and then this kind of secondary harm of like the victim blaming." (16:59)

Quote (Rachel):
"Sometimes one potential risk of centering the victims or the survivors is there can be an incentive or like a feeling that we need to make the survivors into heroes or angels or as like a way to head off those Internet commenters. But it’s like, in a way, I think that does harm to the cause of, you know, telling full, complete stories about full complete people." (23:17)

7. Law Enforcement, Shame, and the Under-Reporting of Fraud (25:12–25:53)

• Only a small percentage of romance scam victims report to law enforcement, due to fear, shame, or a lack of faith in the legal system’s response.
• Rachel points out that the indifference or blame from authorities is sometimes justified by survivors’ experiences.

Quote (Rachel):
"When law enforcement is dismissive, then why would you tell this to a cop if the cop is just gonna blame you and not do anything about it?" (25:32)

8. Narrative Focus — Survivor Stories vs. Perpetrator Fascination (26:00–27:00, 26:40–26:52)

• There’s been a positive shift toward centering survivors in true crime storytelling, rather than mythologizing criminals.
• However, both Anna and Rachel admit that balancing the story—without inadvertently glamorizing the perpetrator or making them the “main character”—is challenging.

Quote (Rachel):
"The subtext of that is like. But he's also kind of special and brilliant, and he's the one we're paying attention to. So I think that has gotten a lot better." (26:00)

9. Rachel’s Encounter with Derek Alldred (31:12–33:50)

• Rachel describes meeting Alldred via a video call while he was incarcerated; he attempted to manipulate her with promises of exclusive access.
• Despite her awareness of his tactics, Rachel felt herself drawn in, experiencing the manipulative power of a practiced scammer even as a skeptical journalist.

Quote (Rachel):
"He's, like, in his jail uniform as a fraudster, and he's telling me this stuff, and I'm like, oh, amazing. Yes. And just really brought it home that you can kind of intellectually know, like, oh, this could happen to anybody. These tricks of manipulation, they work on us, you know, on a human level, and we're all humans. But then to just really, like, experience it, it was like, whoa, okay. Humbling. It’s humbling." (33:03)

10. Lasting Reflections — Emotional and Social Fallout (34:01–35:20, 35:05–36:51)

• Despite years having passed, Rachel is still powerfully affected by the stories and their emotional devastation.
• The crime’s true harm is often subtle, deeply psychological; it destroys not just finances, but a person’s sense of self and trust.
• Everyone is vulnerable because we “all want connection and love.”

Quote (Rachel):
"We're all just so vulnerable to this because we do all want connection and love." (34:01)

• The story resonates because it taps into common hopes and vulnerabilities—dating and trusting strangers in an increasingly digital world.
• The answer to being scammed, according to Rachel, isn’t to “trust no one,” but to find and support those who genuinely have your back.

Quote (Rachel):
"But that’s really so heartbreaking to me, because there’s nothing foolish about wanting to trust people and believe people and, like, wanting to fall in love. You know, it’s deeply vulnerable, but also deeply relatable." (36:27)
"The answer is not trust no one. I don't want to live in that world. And I think that's why it's so wonderful and so lovely that these women were able to trust one another." (37:08)

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Notable Quotes & Moments By Timestamp

• 03:03 Rachel: "They live in Texas, and so everything's bigger in Texas, including the crimes."
• 06:46 Rachel: "You can kind of intellectually know, like, oh, this could happen to anybody. But truly, these techniques are time tested and they really work, which means they could work on any of us."
• 12:47 Rachel: "There was some feeling of, like, female solidarity, I think, in, you know, just sitting side by side talking about her dating life before, during, and after this guy."
• 15:02 Rachel: "...the pattern was that these were all like, kind of savvy, professional women."
• 16:59 Rachel: "There was like the original harm of being lied to and stolen from... and then this kind of secondary harm of like the victim blaming."
• 23:17 Rachel: "...there can be an incentive... that we need to make the survivors into heroes or angels... but in a way, I think that does harm..."
• 25:32 Rachel: "...if the cop is just gonna blame you and not do anything about it? So to a certain extent, the shame is internal, but it’s also... coming from the people who are supposed to be helping too."
• 33:03 Rachel: "He's, like, in his jail uniform as a fraudster, and he's telling me this stuff, and I'm like, oh, amazing. Yes."
• 36:27 Rachel: "There’s nothing foolish about wanting to trust people and believe people and, like, wanting to fall in love. You know, it’s deeply vulnerable, but also deeply relatable."
• 37:08 Rachel: "The answer is not trust no one. I don't want to live in that world. And I think that's why it's so wonderful... that these women were able to trust one another."

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Important Timestamps

• 02:45 — Rachel Monroe begins story coverage
• 04:50 — On public backlash faced by survivors
• 10:30 — How romance scams manipulate through intimacy
• 12:47 — Rachel’s breakthrough moment with survivor Linda
• 16:59 — Secondary harm: victim blaming by public and media
• 21:38 — Has public perception progressed? Rachel’s views
• 31:12 — Rachel’s attempted interview with Derek Alldred
• 33:03 — Rachel on being manipulated even as a journalist
• 34:01 — Enduring reflections on vulnerability and harm
• 36:27 — Why the story resonates: vulnerability, trust, and community

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Episode Tone & Style

The episode is empathetic, thoughtful, and direct. Anna and Rachel discuss difficult topics with care but maintain a conversational style. There's a deep commitment to centering survivors’ humanity, showing both their pain and their resilience, while candidly acknowledging the limits of journalism and true crime storytelling in protecting subjects from public judgment.

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Key Takeaways

• Romance scams are widespread, emotionally and psychologically devastating, and vastly underreported due to victim-blaming and police indifference.
• Anyone can fall victim; intelligence or success offer no shield against emotional manipulation.
• The real harm is the lasting loss of trust in oneself and others, not just the financial loss.
• Telling survivor stories—focusing on their humanity, complexity, and the support they find together—is vital for breaking stigma and offering hope.
• The story is both a cautionary tale and an affirmation that trusting others, and seeking connections, remains essential—and possible, with the right support network.

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For listeners seeking support or more information:

• NO MORE (support resources for those affected): https://www.nomore.org/
• Fight Cybercrime (romance scam resources): https://fightcybercrime.org/

Transcript

[Anna Sinfield]

This is an iHeart podcast guaranteed human

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[Rachel Monroe]

Visit your nearby Lowe'.

[Kal Penn]

Hey everyone, it's Kel Penn. I'm inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with my podcast, Hearsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. Every episode I nerd out with amazing guests and dive into the best new audiobooks available on Audible. It's the book club for your ears. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcast.

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[Public Investing Advertiser]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at. Public Disclosures

[Anna Sinfield]

Novel.

[Rachel Monroe]

I started Reporting on the case when Derek had been arrested but not yet sentenced.

[Anna Sinfield]

This is Rachel Monroe in 2017. She was a reporter for the Atlantic, and she set about covering a huge story unfolding in Texas.

[Rachel Monroe]

They live in Texas, and so everything's bigger in Texas, including the crimes.

[Anna Sinfield]

The arrest of Derek Alldred for scamming a woman in the colony.

[Rachel Monroe]

This was kind of the first time that there was, like, a hope that this is all going to be connected. You know, people are going to understand that this isn't just a bunch of individual crimes, but, like, a larger pattern. On the one hand, I think they wanted to share about the case and, like, make it really clear that this was a pattern of behavior. But also, at the same time, they were cautious because he'd been caught so many times before, and it hadn't really seemed to matter.

[Anna Sinfield]

But the process of writing the piece wasn't exactly smooth. A lot of women had spoken to the media before. In 2014, in 2016, before any arrest was on the horizon, meticulously reported pieces alleging a long history of fraud.

[Rachel Monroe]

I do want to give a ton of credit to Lauren Lomanchik, who's the reporter in Minneapolis who really broke this story and did a lot of the legwork. So some of these women had told their stories publicly with some level of anonymity through her. But I had a hard time tracking these people down. And so I flew to Minneapolis, like, not knowing whether anybody would speak with me or not.

[Anna Sinfield]

And even when she did, they were also really spread out all over the country. Texas, Hawaii, Arizona, and a whole bunch in Minnesota. And even once Rachel tracked them down, she encountered a growing hesitancy to speak to the media.

[Rachel Monroe]

They were reluctant, I think, for understandable reasons.

[Anna Sinfield]

Probably the key reason among those understandable reasons was this.

[Rachel Monroe]

I can't describe the bashing that the public gave us. People are very powerful behind their computers.

[Anna Sinfield]

Even the most thoughtfully, carefully, sensitively reported stories can't guarantee how an audience will react.

[Rachel Monroe]

You know, everybody said we were stupid to give him money. How could we be so stupid?

[Anna Sinfield]

If you've been listening closely, you'll know as well as I do that this is a stupid question for anyone to be asking any of these women, let alone Dorry.

[Rachel Monroe]

None of us gave him money. He went through files. He went through purses. He went through wallets. He went through checkbooks. He waited till you were out of the room. People just absolutely crucified us.

[Anna Sinfield]

It didn't really matter how exactly Derek actually got his hands on the money. Every time this case got Reported. Over the years, the women at the center of it came face to face with a pervasive idea that they were, in some way or another partly to blame for what happened to them. That they were at best vulnerable, naive, and at worst, oh, how stupid are these women?

[Rachel Monroe]

They're just desperate.

[Anna Sinfield]

Y' all are an embarrassment.

[Rachel Monroe]

Y' all are pitiful.

[Anna Sinfield]

Rachel's article came out in 2018, four months before that sentencing hearing showdown. It's good, really thoughtful and sensitively reported, but her piece didn't escape the inevitable backlash either.

[Rachel Monroe]

I think there's a resistance to admitting part of the pleasure of these scammer stories is like, as the reader, you're kind of occupying this all knowing position like it's already happened. You know, that it's a scam, and that kind of gives you a false sense of security. I think that, like, oh, I'm smarter than this. I wouldn't fall for it.

[Anna Sinfield]

I'm fascinated by this kind of response. Deep down, if we're honest, maybe we all sometimes think, it couldn't happen to me.

[Rachel Monroe]

You can kind of intellectually know, like, oh, this could happen to anybody. But truly, these techniques are time tested and they really work, which means they could work on any of us.

[Anna Sinfield]

It's been a few years now since Rachel Munroe's article came out, so she's had some time to reflect on it all. I asked her to sit down with me, give me the benefit of her hindsight, explain how it all unfolded for her.

[Rachel Monroe]

He's, like, in his jail uniform as a fraudster, and he's telling me this stuff, and I'm like, oh, amazing. Yes.

[Anna Sinfield]

And tell me about her face to face with Derek.

[Rachel Monroe]

If anybody should know better, if anybody should know better, it was me. You learn a lot by being humbled, I guess.

[Anna Sinfield]

I'm Anna Sinfield and from the teams at Novel and I Heart Podcasts, you're listening to the Girlfriends. Trust me, babe.

[Rachel Monroe]

I got you. I got you. I got you. I got you.

[Anna Sinfield]

I got you.

[Rachel Monroe]

I got you.

[Anna Sinfield]

Bonus. Episode 1. Get Back down here. Off your high horse.

[Rachel Monroe]

Maybe every story is a manipulation, but in true crime, the stakes are pretty high.

[Anna Sinfield]

What drew you to the Derek Aldred case?

[Rachel Monroe]

A person who was close to me had fallen for a bromance scam. Just learning about it through her, it kind of caught me off guard. Having it hit close to home made it feel much more visceral. And then also just like, a really incredible woman, like, super savvy, super attractive. And this scam lasted for, like, months and months. And months was incredibly elaborate. You know, the. The guy like, knew her kids names. You know, they would have these like, long, long, long phone conversations. And the fact that so much work was being put into, you know, scamming this, like, one individual person, that it was happening at this really intimate level. And then also just seeing how it impacted her life and her emotions. You know, it's one thing to lose a bunch of money, and it's another thing to lose trust in yourself and lose trust in the world. And, you know, just seeing the emotional ramifications made me think that this form of it is new. It certainly seems to be growing, and it's like having an impact beyond just, you know, financial loss. I remember looking at the FBI statistics and seeing that this was like, you know, among the top ways that people were losing money online was to these romance scams. If you think back, like seven or eight years ago, this kind of romance scam was really not on the radar of a lot of people. I think that now there have been a lot of Netflix documentaries and podcasts like this one, and it's much more well known. At the time. I think it was something that was certainly happening a lot, but not necessarily getting the attention that it deserved. And that just kind of blew my mind that it was the scale of it combined with how much it wasn't being talked about. So that was also something that was interesting to me, like, why? Why aren't we talking about this?

[Anna Sinfield]

The kind of scamming Derek was doing seemed like such an extreme example of the kind of thing Rachel was reading

[Rachel Monroe]

about in order to scam these women. He was paying so much attention to them and, like, really kind of watching them and listening to them and learning about them to know, like, what would work on them and what they wanted and what would appeal to them. And it's pretty close to somebody, like, listening to you and figuring out what you like and trying to please you because they like you. I was single at the time, and I was dating. And so I think there was also, like, a personal element for me where thinking about those early stages of getting to know someone and that feeling of, like, really falling for someone, which happens, like, way before you actually know them. The feelings kind of come before the facts in any case, like, even if it turns out to be, like, a really good situation. And so I think just thinking about how the romance scammer performs so many acts that like, a good boyfriend also does. And it's just, you know, like, how do you know which one is which? It's really kind of scary.

[Anna Sinfield]

Yeah, of course, like, you fall in love with the fantasy of someone when you're, like, dating before you actually know

[Rachel Monroe]

who they are completely.

[Anna Sinfield]

God help the people that you were dating while you were reporting on this story. Were you, like, quizzing them?

[Rachel Monroe]

Show me your phone. Who are you talking to?

[Anna Sinfield]

Rachel would go on to speak to a lot of women who were scammed by Derek for her peace in the Atlantic. But building trust after all they'd been through was a challenge.

[Rachel Monroe]

They had been deeply violated by this experience. Somebody that they trusted had lied to them. So there was like, that level. And then I think a lot of them felt really traumatized by how they had been depicted. Just this idea that they were dupes, that they were suckers, that they were pathetic. So I think that there was some hesitancy to trust, and understandably so.

[Anna Sinfield]

One of the central women in Rachel's article is Lynda. You've not heard from her directly in this series, but some of the details of her story will sound familiar to you. Linda was in a relationship with Derek alldred back in 2016 when he was pretending to be Richie Peterson, the military vet. Linda went public with her story that same year.

[Rachel Monroe]

We met at a restaurant, and then she. And then afterwards she was like, let's go get a pedicure. And so I just remember sitting in the salon, we're, you know, side by side, getting her toes painted and buffed, and that's when she really kind of started to open up. I've never done that on a reporting trip before, but it helped me understand her as a person. And it. There was some feeling of, like, female solidarity, I think, in, you know, just sitting side by side talking about her dating life before, during, and after this guy. That helped me connect with her emotionally and it broke down some of the barriers that can sometimes be there as a journalist, and sometimes we need those barriers. But it was a way to really feel like how this had hurt her.

[Anna Sinfield]

I love that. It's like, it's such a nice opportunity when people are up for just kind of doing a thing with you.

[Rachel Monroe]

The people working at the salon must just have the best gossip of anybody. I do remember, you know, after kind of having this bonding moment at the salon with Linda suggested that we go over to Missy's house, which I was like, that's. Yes, that's amazing. Let's go.

[Anna Sinfield]

Missy was another woman that so called Richie Peterson had been dating at the same time she had discovered the truth about Richie, that he was actually Derek. After Finding his real ID card in his wallet while he showered. She also found Linda's credit card, looked her up on Facebook and reached out to her, warning her of the truth. Like Dorian Tracy over in Texas, Linda and Missy had struck up a friendship.

[Rachel Monroe]

And seeing the two of them together, Linda, she's a real kind of strong, blonde Texas woman. And Missy was really different. You know, the small and dark haired and just has kind of a single mom, had like a different energy about her. And looking at them, at the two of them, and just you would think, like, there's no way they would have anything in common. They never would have met otherwise. But they connected through sharing this experience that most people haven't had.

[Anna Sinfield]

But it does show how broad Derek's scope was when it comes to the sort of women that he was pursuing.

[Rachel Monroe]

Yeah, if anything, the pattern was that these were all like, kind of savvy, professional women. And it makes sense that if you're trying to scam people out of money, you want to have find people who are like, doing well. That really was kind of the only consistent thing about them was that they were women who in a lot of ways were thriving in their lives and, you know, just looking for a man to kind of add to the picture. And he was good at presenting himself

[Anna Sinfield]

as a catch up until that point, Rachel had been focusing a lot on the harm and pain in the story.

[Rachel Monroe]

And just seeing the two of them sprawled on the couch with Missy's daughter, like watching tv, you know, eating snacks, like gabbing. I was like, oh yeah, this is a really important part of the story too. Like how these women were able to take care of each other when they were being in some cases, failed by law enforcement and dismissed by other people in their lives.

[Anna Sinfield]

What was the public reaction to your piece specifically when it came out?

[Rachel Monroe]

I remember getting so many emails from people being like, I have a story like this. This happened to me, this happened to my aunt, this happened to my mother. And, you know, will you follow up? Will you write about this man? Will you write about this man? And I sort of. It was sort of heartbreaking to have to write back to all of these people and be like, look, I'm sorry, I've kind of done my romance scammer story and now I'm not covering that field anymore. And some of those stories I, like, passed on to other reporters that I, that I knew. But I was just so struck by how many stories like this must be out there and that aren't being told.

[Anna Sinfield]

I've read Rachel's piece. It's really good. You should go find it. It's called the Perfect man who Wasn't. It's really sensitively and thoughtfully written and I get a real sense of these women from reading it. But alas, the Internet is the Internet.

[Rachel Monroe]

There was like the original harm of being lied to and stolen from by this man and then this kind of secondary harm of like the victim blaming.

[Anna Sinfield]

That's coming up after the break.

[Rachel Monroe]

Foreign.

[Malcolm Glebel]

Hello. Hello, this is Malcolm Glabel from Smart talks with IBM Today. We're diving into a fascinating conversation with Stefano Pallard, head of fan development for Scuderia Ferrari hp.

[Stefano Pollard]

Your pronunciation is it's strongly American. It's more Scuderia Ferrari.

[Malcolm Glebel]

I'm still working on rolling my R's, but what I was able to learn from Stefano was the importance of engaging the Tifosi the Ferrari superfans in the digital age.

[Stefano Pollard]

Ferrari fans and superfans want to be part of something, want to belong to something. So they want to be part of a community and ultimately they want to be part of a winning team.

[Malcolm Glebel]

You've got Ferrari, which has a long history, design history, and now you're interacting in a kind of digital space. I'm curious how you balance those two traditions.

[Stefano Pollard]

When it comes to fan engagement, it's really digital technology and digital channels. Are they enabled to create a deeper connection with our fans?

[Malcolm Glebel]

To learn more about how Ferrari and IBM are using technology to build deeper connections with fans, visit IBM.comferrari

[Public Investing Advertiser]

support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures [e-mail] Disclosures

[Kal Penn]

hey everyone, it's Kal Penn. I'm the host of Irsay The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Ray Porter, the narrator of Andy Weir's audiobook project, Hail Mary Massive sci fi adventure about survival and science and what happens when you wake up alone, very far from Earth.

[Ray Porter]

I really had to make a decision because I caught myself getting that frog in my throat and starting to get teary as I'm narrating some of these sections and it's like, okay, yo yo yo, is this indulgent? And I really thought about it. I was like, no. At this point it would kind of be betraying the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I don't go through it. But there's places in this book that that deeply emotionally affected me and I left it on the mic. That's great because it served the story. People will say like, oh my God, I cried at the end. It's like, yeah dude, me too.

[Kal Penn]

Listen to Hearsay, the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Rachel Monroe]

No one can ever be as good as this right here.

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[Anna Sinfield]

So your piece came out in 2018 and you spoke about how the women in subsequent stuff that's come out about their story have experienced kind of lots of victim blaming from the public who are reading it. Do you think there's been a shift in the way the public react to those kind of stories now?

[Rachel Monroe]

I like to think so. As a person who's like spent a lot of time reading, consuming true crime and looking at the way people talk about true crime on the Internet, it's like really shocking to me how no matter what, if you believe that it was the victim's fault, then that's a way of thinking like, oh, this would never happen to me because I wouldn't make the mistakes that they did. So I'm not that hopeful about. I mean, I do think that on some level the discussion of romance scams, as people have become more aware of them and as more People's lives have been touched by them. There is a better understanding of how pervasive this is and how it could really happen to anyone. But, you know, victim blaming in general and specifically when it's a situation that involves women and relationships, those bad old narratives still persist. And that's why it's important to do podcasts like this is to remind people over and over again.

[Anna Sinfield]

You know, I mean, that's what I was going to ask. Because of course, like, we as the people putting these stories out, are responsible for the information that we give. And there's a lot that we can do to paint a picture of a person that the audience is gonna run with. I mean, I absolutely have experience of putting shows out and telling stories where I think I've been really kind of ethical and I feel like, pleased with the way that I've portrayed someone. And I've really thought it through and tried not to add to these awful stereotypes. And then still, obviously people are gonna say what they say on the Internet and you can't escape that.

[Rachel Monroe]

I think it's also like letting survivors be fully human, not making what happened to them the only thing in their life, you know, like letting them be in the stories that we're telling. Full complex people, even flawed people. You know, I think that sometimes one potential risk of centering the victims or the survivors is there can be a, an incentive or like a feeling that we need to make the survivors into heroes or angels or as like a way to head off those Internet commenters. But it's like, in a way, I think that does harm to the cause of, you know, telling full, complete stories about full complete people. Like, we all make mistakes. Victims and survivors should be allowed to like, express their full humanity in the story.

[Anna Sinfield]

And yeah, because it's really tempting, I think, especially in romance scam stories. And I mean, it's also sometimes inescapable because it is just true. But it's really tempting to talk about how smart everybody is because you want to be like, no, they're so smart. Like, therefore it could happen to all of us. But then also it's like it would also be a terrible thing if they were objectively not that smart.

[Rachel Monroe]

Right, exactly, exactly. It's like it's not terrible that it happened to a smart person. It's terrible that it happened to anybody. Stories that kind of portray victims as like, you know, pure, almost like non human angels does do harm for like other survivors. Other victims. Because, you know, you look at a story like that and you're like, wow. I'm not that perfect. Like, maybe I did deserve what happened to me. And it's like, no, no, no, that's not true. It's like, we're all just humans kind of trying to get through life, not harming other people and not being harmed. Like, you don't have to be an angel, a person who's never made a mistake, fully virtuous person, to, you know, deserve our sympathy.

[Anna Sinfield]

I think according to the justice department, only about 15% of fraud victims actually report the crime to law enforcement. And that's because of shame and guilt, embarrassment, kind of disbelief about what they've gone through. Why do you think it's so difficult for people to report these crimes?

[Rachel Monroe]

Through reporting this story, it became clear to me that some of that is justified because of law enforcement's response. You know, when law enforcement is dismissive, then why would you tell this to a cop if the cop is just gonna blame you and not do anything about it? So to a certain extent, the shame is internal, but it's also like, coming from the people who are supposed to be helping too.

[Anna Sinfield]

Do you think there are things that we can do to kind of fairly portray survivors without adding to the stigma?

[Rachel Monroe]

This is something that is a lot better than it used to be, is centering survivors in the stories and not fixating on the perpetrator. You know, making it all about him. Even if the story is like, he's so bad. He's so bad. The subtext of that is like. But he's also kind of special and brilliant, and he's the one we're paying attention to. So I think that has gotten a lot better. And not just for romance scams, but, you know, these kind of mass shootings and, like, all of this stuff about, you know, not repeating the perpetrator's name, just not making them kind of accidentally into heroes or anti heroes, just not making them the center of the story.

[Anna Sinfield]

I've tried my best over the years to make sure the girlfriends doesn't center a perpetrator like Derek Aldred. But I also couldn't ignore him altogether, and neither could Rachel.

[Rachel Monroe]

A lot of these reflections about not censoring the perpetrator were things that I learned through the process of writing and reporting this story.

[Anna Sinfield]

You actually meet Derek Aldred.

[Rachel Monroe]

Mm.

[Anna Sinfield]

More after the break.

[Malcolm Glebel]

Hello. Hello, this is Malcolm Glebel from Smart talks with IBM. Today we're diving into a fascinating conversation with Stefano Pollard, head of fan development for Scuderia Ferrari hp.

[Stefano Pollard]

Your pronunciation is. It's strongly American. It's more Scuderia Ferrari.

[Malcolm Glebel]

I'm still working on rolling my R's, but what I was able to learn from Stefano was the importance of engaging the Tifosi the Ferrari superfans in the digital age.

[Stefano Pollard]

Ferrari fans and super fans want to be part of something, want to belong to something, so they want to be part of a community and ultimately they want to be part of a winning team.

[Malcolm Glebel]

You've got Ferrari which has a long history, design history, and now you're interacting in a kind of digital space. I'm curious how you balance those two traditions.

[Stefano Pollard]

When it comes to fan engagement, it's really digital technology and digital channels are being able to create a deeper connection with our fans.

[Malcolm Glebel]

To learn more about how Ferrari and IBM are using technology to build deeper connections with fans, visit IBM.comferrari

[Public Investing Advertiser]

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[Kal Penn]

hey everyone, it's Kal Penn. I'm the host of Irsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Ray Porter, the narrator of Andy Weir's audiobook project, Hail Mary, Massive sci fi adventure about survival and science and what happens when you wake up alone, very far from Earth.

[Ray Porter]

I really had to make a decision because I caught myself getting that frog in my throat and starting to get teary as I'm narrating some of these sections and it's like okay, yo yo yo is this indulgent. And I really thought about it. I was like, no. At this point, it would kind of be betraying the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I don't go through it. But there's places in this book that deeply, emotionally affected me. And I left it on the mic. That's great because it served the story. People will say like, oh, my God, I cried at the end. It's like, yeah, dude, me too.

[Kal Penn]

Listen to Irsay the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lowe's/Paramount/TNA Advertiser]

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[Rachel Monroe]

When I went to go meet him, I was still really in that kind of traditional true crime mode of like, well, you got to meet the bad guy and try to get him to tell you all of his secrets. Like, that's, that's what makes for an exciting, thrilling story.

[Anna Sinfield]

Back in 2017, Derek was real keen to talk to Rachel about her piece.

[Rachel Monroe]

I think I was just hoping to, like, get a sense of who he was, his background, how did he explain what he did, what made him tick? You know, all of those questions that you have as a journalist trying to get inside somebody's head.

[Anna Sinfield]

At that time, Derek was being held on remand in Texas awaiting his sentencing hearing.

[Rachel Monroe]

And so I made an appointment to go out there and see him. They wouldn't let us meet in person. Although, like, I was at the place where he was incarcerated, it was still like a video call. It was a very weird kind of setup, almost like talking on a payphone with this, like, grainy little video where I can see him in his prison uniform. He says everything that you would want a source to say, right? Like, there's more to this story. I'm really happy to talk to you. I'll tell you all about it. He said he was going to, like, give me the password to his email. He was like, oh, there's all of these, like, files. You could go into my email and you can see the emails between me and these women. And I was like, wow, that'll be so amazing. Like, what a great thing to have. Then I could quote, you know, like, how he's seducing them and see all this behind the scenes and figure out the timing. And I got really excited, and, you know, that all fell apart later.

[Anna Sinfield]

Of course, when Rachel says it could happen to you, she really does mean it, because in a way, it happened to her.

[Rachel Monroe]

Of course, he didn't do that. Of course that never happened.

[Anna Sinfield]

All the exonerating detail Derek promised never quite materialized.

[Rachel Monroe]

He's, like, in his jail uniform as a fraudster, and he's telling me this stuff, and I'm like, oh, amazing. Yes. And just really brought it home that you can kind of intellectually know, like, oh, this could happen to anybody. These tricks of manipulation, they work on us, you know, on a human level, and we're all humans. But then to just really, like, experience it, it was like, whoa, okay. Humbling. It's humbling.

[Anna Sinfield]

I can empathize with that. I mean, I. I did a show once with a very prolific, organized criminal, and there was a point where I suddenly realized I was being worked, you

[Rachel Monroe]

know, well, they're good at what they do. Like, that's. That's why. You know, that's why they're good at it.

[Anna Sinfield]

And I fell for it. And then suddenly I was like, you know, in a weird industrial estate about to be, you know, offed.

[Rachel Monroe]

And I was like, no, this is.

[Anna Sinfield]

I should have seen this.

[Rachel Monroe]

I think I'm gonna go home now. Yeah.

[Anna Sinfield]

Have your thoughts on the story changed, do you think, between when you wrote it and now?

[Rachel Monroe]

It's funny, I, like, continue to read and watch and listen to these stories when they come out. I find them really heartbreaking, but I find them really compelling. We're all just so vulnerable to this because we do all want connection and love, and it's. I understand why the scammers, you know, target the heart because we're all very vulnerable there. But it's. It's just really terrible what it does. The sinister way that this kind of crime undermines people's sense of self, trust in themselves, trust in the world and their understanding of reality. I think about that a lot. You know, when there's a murder, the harm is very, very clear. You know, somebody who was alive is no longer alive. It's easy to understand the harm. And this kind of crime, just the psychological effect of it is more subtle. And that's what's really stuck with me.

[Anna Sinfield]

It's one of the most kind of dirty, inexcusable crimes, isn't it?

[Rachel Monroe]

Yeah. Dirty, I think, is the right word for it.

[Anna Sinfield]

I mean, other people, yourself included, everyone is really intrigued by romance scams. This story in particular. Why do you think people keep coming back?

[Rachel Monroe]

I think they tie into the vulnerability that we all feel when we open ourselves up to the prospect of love. I think as more and more dating happens through these apps and through these online mechanisms, the people that we're meeting aren't people who are being introduced to us by somebody that we know. There aren't these kind of social ties. Every time you go on a date with a stranger, there's, like, some level of exposure and trying to figure out, how much do you trust? How much do you open up? How much do you believe? Or are you gonna be super suspicious and weird in that way? So I think it's like the more extreme version of what so many of us are going through, like, on a weekly basis. It's such a deeply intimate crime. This is what really broke my heart. It's like the parts of these women that wanted to trust somebody and believe what they were saying and, you know, think the best of someone, which is like, those are all, like, really beautiful qualities that we all have. Hopefully we get to move through the world, and when we meet somebody and they tell us who they are, we. We aren't suspicious and trying to pick it apart and asking to look at their passport. I mean, that's no way to live. But this crime kind of takes those beautiful parts of us, and you turn against yourself. The shame is that I should have known better. The shame is that I'm a fool. But that's really so heartbreaking to me, because there's nothing foolish about wanting to trust people and believe people and, like, wanting to fall in love. You know, it's deeply vulnerable, but also deeply relatable. What I don't want people to take away from these stories is, like, don't trust anyone. The answer is not, you need to build a castle around yourself and never open up to anybody ever again. It's like, no, you need to find the people who do have your back. The answer is not trust no one. I don't want to live in that world. And I think that's why it's so wonderful and so lovely that these women were able to trust one another.

[Anna Sinfield]

Coming up on the next bonus episode of the Girlfriends. Trust me, babe.

[Rachel Monroe]

So if you are that friend, step up and help that person get the support that they need.

[Anna Sinfield]

Are you worried that your friend's dating a con artist? Maybe a scammer, a bit of a liar? Next episode is for you.

[Rachel Monroe]

When we care for people and we have to tell them hard things.

[Anna Sinfield]

The Girlfriend's Trust Me Babe is produced by Novel for iHeart Podcasts. For more from Novel, visit Novel Audio. The series is hosted by me, Anna Sinfield and this episode was produced by Valeria Rocker and Leona Hamid. Our editor is Joe Wheeler. Production management from Cherie Houston, Joe Savage and Charlotte Wolf Fact checking by Dania Suleiman Sound design, mixing and scoring by Daniel Kempson and Nicholas Alexander. The Girlfriend's theme was composed by Daniel Kempson and Louisa Gerstein and performed by Daniel Kempson with vocals by Louisa Gerstein. Music supervision from Daniel Kempson and Anna Sinfield. The series artwork was designed by Christina Lemkul. Story development by Susie Baker and Olivia Smart. Novel's Director of development is Selena Mehta. Max o' Brien is the Executive producer for Novel. Katrina Norvell and Nikki Etor are the executive producers for iHeart podcasts and the marketing lead is Alison Cantor. Special thanks to Carrie Lieberman and Will Pearson at iHeart Podcasts. Julie Sensullo, Anne Langston, Carolyn Shirlevin, Katie Gillispie, Kelly Hunt, Rachel Munro, Tom Oldag and Tad Vesna.

[Lowe's/Paramount/TNA Advertiser]

Professional wrestling fans, the action continues every week. Watch CNA Thursday Night Impact every week on amc. It is like a legacy, electricity flowing through your veins. Don't miss the adrenaline, the drama and the total non stop action. No one can ever be as good as this right here. Don't miss the action of TNA Thursday Night Impact every week on AMC. For showtimes and more information visit TNA wrestling.com

[Kal Penn]

Hey everyone, it's Cal Pen. I'm inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with my podcast Hearsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. Every episode I nerd out with amazing guests and dive into the best new audiobooks available on Audible. It's the book club for your ears. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Rachel Monroe]

If you're feeling off fatigue, mood changes, skin shifts, yet your lab say everything's normal. You're not alone. Meet Oestra from Inner Balance, the first all in one prescription strength bioidentical hormone cream that's natural and effective and only takes one drop, 10 seconds a day. Oester replaces five to six products women typically use to treat symptoms and is third party tested to ensure the highest quality. Visit innerbalance.com today to start feeling like yourself again. That's innerbalance.com here's the truth.

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[Anna Sinfield]

Guaranteed human.