The Gist – "David McCloskey on Why Real-World Spying is 'Too Crazy for Fiction'"

Episode Date: January 14, 2026
Host: Mike Pesca | Guest: David McCloskey (novelist, former CIA analyst, co-host of "The Rest is Classified" podcast)

Episode Overview

In this episode, Mike Pesca welcomes novelist and ex-CIA analyst David McCloskey to discuss his new spy novel The Persian, which draws heavily from real-world intelligence operations, especially those between Israel and Iran. The conversation explores the blurred boundaries between espionage fact and fiction, the creative (and often disturbing) realities of spycraft, and the challenges of rendering complex characters—especially those seen as adversaries—in a nuanced light. Real-world Middle Eastern intelligence operations, risk tolerance, morality, and the craft of spy fiction take center stage.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Realities Behind Spy Fiction

• Fiction Reflecting Reality:
  McCloskey openly admits that much of his fiction is directly inspired by real, often astonishingly bold, intelligence operations.

  "Anytime I did research for the book and tried to unpack how the Israelis had killed somebody in Iran or surveilled somebody, whatever it was, the reality was I didn't need to improve upon the spy story. It was already so insane." – McCloskey (11:46)

• Specific Operations:
  The book’s opening mirrors the 2020 assassination of Iran's nuclear chief, Mohsen Fakhrizadeh, attributed to Israeli agents and involving remote-controlled weaponry. McCloskey simply transported the operation to a different locale for narrative purposes.

• Urban vs. Rural Hits:
  Pesca questions the plausibility of such operations in urban environments given Israeli concerns about civilian casualties.
  McCloskey notes that while Israelis prefer limited collateral damage, tolerance for risk can rise depending on operational necessity.

  "The Israeli risk tolerance is pretty high. And I think they're probably willing to accept collateral damage if they can hit the targets they need to hit if there's no other choice." – McCloskey (13:27)

2. Deep Dives into Real Operations

• The "Pager Operation":
  Both discuss Israel’s creative "pager operation" which targeted Hezbollah’s reserve forces, inflicting operational and psychological damage by injuring many reserve fighters.

  "If you go back to the 2006 war... Israel failed to degrade Hezbollah's command and control structure. What the pager operation helped do... was to degrade that command and control structure... and that is why Israel won this time and really didn't win the last go around in 2006." – McCloskey (15:57)

• Recruiting Local Assets:
  Israel's ability to recruit Iranians within Iran is not exaggerated. Such recruitment leverages internal societal fractures and is far more effective than any reverse penetration by Iranian intelligence into Israel:

  "The Israelis are aided by... fractures in Iranian society. Dissident groups, ethnic and religious fractures... Israel has a lot of seams they can operate in. And they're really good at it." – McCloskey (17:30)

3. Limits and Limitations: Gaza, Iran, and Human Intelligence

• Why Not Gaza?
  Pesca asks why similar human penetration hasn’t worked in Gaza. McCloskey points out that while Israel surely has assets there, they appear not to have high-level penetration of Hamas leadership, explaining the intelligence failure before October 7.

  "At least part of the Israeli intelligence failure... was that they had not penetrated a very small group of Hamas leaders who were planning this attack." – McCloskey (19:18)

4. Researching the Darkest Corners

• Torture Methods in Fiction:
  McCloskey details his unsettling research into real torture methods used by various regimes, and how he blends facts from sources like Amnesty International with his own “luminous details” for narrative effect—such as forcing a character to endlessly rewrite confessions with a crayon.

  "Our species has a tremendous amount of creative energy when it comes to inflicting pain... there are pretty established ways for extracting information. Sleep deprivation, writing, isolation... not very complicated, but really mess people up." – McCloskey (22:44)

5. Character Complexity and Moral Grey Zones

• Avoiding "Morality Plays":
  McCloskey strives to craft adversaries as authentic, complex people rather than archetypes of evil, noting that:

  "Evil people don’t think they're evil... They’re doing things that they see as necessary. I’m generally trying to draw out characters that I think are authentic to the settings that they arise from." (24:54)
  He avoids deliberately assigning “good guys” and “bad guys”—instead highlighting the messy motives and moral ambiguities of all sides.

• Sympathy for "Adversaries":
  The character Roya—a widow, Iranian, and functionary within a malign organization—exemplifies the fate of regular people under dictatorship:

  "She does admin work for a pretty nasty organization... because she needs the money and doesn’t really have many choices. She’s a very sympathetic Iranian character who’s just part of this gigantic system." (27:57)
  Pesca adds insight into the average Iranian as both victim and unwilling participant of a repressive regime. (29:19)

6. Real-World Events and the Role of Fiction

• Integrating Current Events:
  On weaving Israel’s 2023-2024 Gaza campaign into his work, McCloskey says it’s unavoidable if one wants authentic, believable characters:

  "You have to deal with what’s actually going on in the world... Their country’s affected by it... So I felt like it had to be incorporated in that way..." (30:04)

7. Spycraft Capabilities: Israel, Iran, the U.S.

• Limitations of Iranian Operations:
  Though Iran can undertake disruptive acts (propaganda, intimidation), McCloskey maintains that their operational reach inside Israel is a far cry from Israel’s inside Iran. His book exaggerates only slightly for narrative balance.

  "The Iranians do not have the same capabilities inside Israel... But the idea that the Iranians would be able to either through a cutout or directly recruit... disaffected Israelis… Very plausible." (33:57, 35:16)

• American Capabilities vs. Israeli Risk Appetite:
  Pesca asks if the CIA could undertake complex operations like Israel’s.

  "It's less a matter of capability and it's more a matter of willingness or necessity... The Israelis have a very different psychological and organizational structure... They're willing to do things like this that really, you know, carry a lot of risk." – McCloskey (41:52)

8. "Stranger than Fiction": Fact Outpaces Imagination

• Too Crazy for Novels:
  McCloskey admits that operations like the pager plot would seem unbelievable in fiction but are entirely real:

  "If I had put [the pager operation] in a novel... you would have told me it was stupid. You would have said... this was too crazy for a book. And it's not too crazy. The Israelis already did it." (37:10)

• On the Art of Plausibility:
  While fiction typically “cranks up the implausibility” by 20%, McCloskey instead aims for a series of individually plausible yet collectively extraordinary scenarios.

9. Who Holds the Advantage?

(On intelligence and statecraft effectiveness)

• Small, Threatened States vs. Large Proxies:
  Israel’s intelligence services are considered the region’s best, with far more reach and capacity than Iran’s. Yet, both sides face difficulties turning tactical gains into strategic advantage over the long term.

  "I'd argue the Iranians don't have [those advantages]... [But] I think a lot of the long term trends... look pretty bad... everybody kind of loses in the long run. I'm very cynical. I think cynicism is generally a good speed when it comes to looking at the Middle East." – McCloskey (45:40, 47:50)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Reality vs. Fiction:

  “You can just look at the way Mossad operates... and just lock, stock and barrel, pull the trade craft and idea for the operation and put it in a book. And people will be like, wow, that's crazy.” – McCloskey (37:10)

• On Israeli Risk Tolerance:

  "The Israeli risk tolerance is pretty high... they're probably willing to accept collateral damage if they can hit the targets." – McCloskey (13:27)

• On Sympathetic Adversaries:

  "Evil people don’t think they're evil... they're doing things that they see as necessary for some end." – McCloskey (24:54)

• On the Allure of Spycraft:

  "From the standpoint of the tradecraft, the imagination... it's absolutely fascinating." – McCloskey (39:16)

• On the Middle East Outlook:

  "A lot of the long term trends... look pretty bad... everybody kind of loses in the long run. I'm very cynical." – McCloskey (47:50)

Important Timestamps

• 11:46 – The real-life Fakhrizadeh assassination and using it as novel inspiration
• 13:27 – Israeli risk tolerance and collateral damage in covert ops
• 15:57 – "Pager operation" and changing the outcome of Israeli–Hezbollah conflict
• 17:30 – Israeli HUMINT success, recruiting Iranians inside Iran
• 19:18 – Lack of high-level Israeli assets in Hamas prior to October 7, 2023
• 22:44 – On creative methods of torture and pain infliction as seen in Amnesty reports and fiction
• 24:54 – Shaping multifaceted characters, avoiding black-and-white morality
• 33:57 – Iranian attempts at covert ops inside Israel; digital recruitment
• 37:10 – Real-world operations “too crazy for fiction”
• 41:52 – U.S. ability (or lack thereof) to perform complex, risky intelligence operations compared to Israel
• 45:40 – The strategic contest between Israel and Iran
• 47:50 – The cynicism necessary in considering Middle Eastern power dynamics

Conclusion

This episode of The Gist offers a rare, nuanced look at the intersection of real espionage and spy fiction, with McCloskey repeatedly reinforcing that real-world spycraft regularly outpaces anything a novelist could invent. The realities of Israeli, Iranian, and even U.S. intelligence work are stranger, more inventive, and often bleaker than fiction. Through vivid anecdotes, careful analysis, and a steadfast avoidance of simplistic good-vs-evil narratives, both Pesca and McCloskey demonstrate the complicated, unsettling, and sometimes awe-inspiring craft that underlies modern state intelligence—and the challenge of translating that into compelling, believable fiction.

For further intrigue and storytelling, read David McCloskey's "The Persian" or tune in to "The Rest is Classified" podcast.