Derrick Palmer: "The union was always the solution."

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Derrick Palmer: 'The union was always the solution.'"

Podcast: The Gist
Host: Mike Pesca (Peach Fish Productions)
Guest: Derrick Palmer (Co-founder, Amazon Labor Union; Author, Handbook for the Revolution)
Date: August 12, 2026
Duration of Content Section: ~15:20 – 24:55

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Episode Overview

In this compelling episode, Mike Pesca sits down with Derrick Palmer, co-founder of the Amazon Labor Union and author of Handbook for the Revolution: Building a More Perfect Union for the 21st Century. Palmer recounts his journey from essential worker to organizer of one of America's most high-profile unionization efforts at Amazon’s Staten Island warehouse. The conversation unveils the difficult working conditions at Amazon, the frustrations that ignited union ambitions, the grassroots strategies that powered their success, and critical reflections for future organizers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Derrick Palmer’s Background and Path to Amazon

[09:43 – 10:22]

• Palmer recounts working various “essential” jobs—retail, warehouse, and grocery (TJ Maxx, Williams-Sonoma, ShopRite).
• He landed at Amazon in 2015 after bouncing between temp jobs, thanks to a tip from his mother.

Memorable Quote (Palmer, 10:08):
"I actually found out about Amazon through my mom. You know, shout out to her, she's the one who made all this happen."

Early Unionization Thoughts and Working Conditions

[10:26 – 12:59]

• Palmer clarifies he had not previously worked in a unionized shop.
• After starting at Amazon, increasing frustration over poor treatment of workers seeded the idea of organizing.
• The pandemic and the notorious JFK8 warehouse walkout crystallized this goal alongside Chris Smalls.

Working conditions described:

• No sick time: People worked sick to avoid missing work.
• Health hazards: Dust leading to “black snot,” unsanitary eating areas (refrigerators, microwaves infested with roaches).
• Long shifts (10-12 hours common, sometimes more).
• Overtime only after 40 hours, not for long daily shifts.

Memorable Quote (Palmer, 12:17):
"I experienced a lot of people honestly risking their [...] health just to make it to work. [...] There's no sick time at Amazon, so people were making it their business to be at work all the time."

Building the Union from the Ground Up

[13:28 – 18:06]

• Palmer met Chris Smalls (eventual co-leader) at Amazon; their friendship and shared New Jersey background forged a bond.
• The warehouse workforce was majority people of color, but management’s diversity was increased only after critical press coverage.
• For strategy, Palmer and Smalls visited Bessemer, AL, to study an ongoing union drive—a “homework assignment” that influenced their approach.
• They favored a grassroots, worker-driven model instead of importing outside traditional unions.
• Smalls was fired by Amazon for organizing the walkout and was disparaged in leaked executive memos, escalating their resolve.

Notable Exchange:

• Palmer, on motivation after the leaked Bezos memo (19:17):
  "...there was a memo that was leaked out, you know, from Jeff Bezos and the executive board [...] labeling Chris as not smart or articulate. So once that came out, we knew that we were a threat to them and that we had to continue what we were doing."

How They Won: Tactics and Persistence

[18:06 – 22:23]

• Amazon’s captive audience meetings (anti-union sessions) backfired, especially when organizers like Palmer directly confronted management’s claims in real time.
• The campaign required relentless effort—organizers slept at bus stops to reach all shifts and maintained presence throughout the year.
• The union was successful on its first vote—rare in modern labor history—thanks to the personal, in-building recruiting approach and leveraging genuine worker trust.

Memorable Quote (Palmer, 20:44):
"The union was always the solution to that problem. Now, you gotta deal with people that are scared. That's one hurdle. But ultimately, you know, that was the influence that Amazon couldn't [...]."

Differences vs. Other Efforts (e.g., Bessemer, AL)

[22:23 – 24:39]

• In Bessemer, lack of internal organizers and reliance on external union signatures weakened the campaign.
• Palmer emphasizes the criticality of having core organizers embedded in every department and focusing on face-to-face engagement.
• The negative impact of anti-union meetings, when not countered, is profound: workers only hear unfounded anti-union sentiment.
• Palmer underscores unions’ role in securing better pay, job security, and improved work environments.

Notable Quote (Palmer, 23:05):
"You gotta have people in all departments, or at least most departments, like basically that core leader. And they didn't really have that at the time [...] Our signatures were in person. So it does play a part."

Looking Forward: Advice and Legacy

[16:04 – 16:34, closing remarks]

• Palmer wrote Handbook for the Revolution to guide future labor organizing, wishing he’d had such a resource when starting out.
• Encourages worker-led campaigns and direct communication with peers.
• His story and the book aim to inspire the next generation of labor leaders.

Host Closing (Pesca, 24:39):
"Derrick Palmer is one of the organizers behind the Amazon union and he is out now with Handbook for the Revolution, Building a More Perfect Union for the 21st Century."

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Notable Quotes and Timestamps

• 10:08 Derrick Palmer:
  "I actually found out about Amazon through my mom. You know, shout out to her, she's the one who made all this happen."
• 12:17 Derrick Palmer:
  "I experienced a lot of people honestly risking their. Their, their health just to make it to work. You know, as, you know that there's no sick time at Amazon, so people were making it their business to be at work all the time."
• 19:17 Derrick Palmer:
  "There was a, actually a memo that was leaked out, you know, from Jeff Bezos and the executive board talking about that walkout and labeling Chris as not smart or articulate. So once that came out, we knew that we were a threat to them and that, you know, we had to continue what we were doing."
• 20:44 Derrick Palmer:
  "The union was always the solution to that problem. Now you got to deal with people that are scared. That's, that's one hurdle you got to deal with... But ultimately, you know, that was the influence that Amazon couldn't, they couldn't counterattack..."
• 23:05 Derrick Palmer:
  "You got to have people in all departments, or at least most departments, like basically that core leader. And they didn't really have that at the time, you know, when they were getting people to vote. The majority of them were online signatures. So our signatures were in person. So it does play a part."

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |-----------------------------------------|--------------| | Introduction & Palmer’s background | 09:26 – 10:22| | Early days at Amazon, first union ideas | 10:26 – 12:59| | Describing workplace conditions | 12:17 – 12:59| | Palmer/Smalls partnership & workforce | 14:08 – 15:22| | Bessemer, AL groundwork | 16:34 – 18:06| | Walkout, Smalls’ firing, leaked memo | 18:06 – 19:17| | Union-building tactics, winning the vote| 20:44 – 22:23| | Lessons from Bessemer & advice | 22:23 – 24:39| | Closing remarks | 24:39 – 24:55|

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Conclusion

This episode offers an inside look at what it takes to unionize America’s largest corporations—grit, solidarity, relentless on-the-ground organizing, and an unyielding belief in worker power. Derrick Palmer’s experiences underscore that successful union drives rely on deep trust, authentic leadership from within, and the courage to persist even against formidable opposition. His new handbook aspires to pass on those hard-won lessons to future changemakers.

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For more, read Derrick Palmer’s Handbook for the Revolution: Building a More Perfect Union for the 21st Century.

Transcript

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Save up to 30% your first [e-mail] podcast terms apply. It's Wednesday, August 12, 2026. From Peach Fish Productions, this is the gist and from the commercial break, I'm guest host Brian Greene. On our agenda today, Mike talks with Derek Palmer. He's the author of Handbook for the Revolution, Building a More Perfect union for the 21st century. That title gets a 10 out of 10 on the optimism score. But Palmer has his bona fides. He was at the center of an effort to unionize an Amazon warehouse on Staten Island. It's one of the very few Amazon facilities where workers actually managed to pull this off. Mike and Derek talk about what conditions were like inside the warehouse. What happened when workers felt like Amazon executives simply were not listening. How you organize against one of the largest and most powerful companies on earth. And what exactly Palmer plans to do now that the fight has moved into the next phase. And later on the spiel, Mike turns his attention to one of Hollywood's most reliable creative formulas. Let's take literally anything. An ant, a bee, a car, a household appliance, the co host of a mediocre comedy podcast. Let's give them human emotions, a functioning society, and some unresolved childhood trauma. And wha. Bam. You have yourself an animated movie. Mr. Pesca has a pitch of his own. It involves horses, cows, and eventually a filmmaker slowly destroying his life while trying to get that movie made. So we have Amazon, organized labor, talking animals, and the movie industry. It's a surprisingly organic combination. And that's all ahead here on the Gist.

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Fatty 15 is on a mission to support healthy aging for all, including all ages and stages of life. You can get an additional 15% off their 90 day subscription starter kit by going to fatty15.com gist and using code gist at checkout. Derek Palmer is a co founder of the Amazon Union. I could say the first Amazon union. I could say one of the Amazon unions, except that would be inaccurate. What he did, he and his friend Chris Malls in convincing his coworkers to vote for a union in Staten island has not been replicated. But still it was an achievement. It landed him on the COVID of the New York Times. It got him and Chris named TIME 2022 People of the Year among the TIME 100. He is now out with a handbook. It is in fact a handbook for the revolution, as he says, building a more perfect Union for the 21st century. We'll talk about him and about his work. Derek, welcome to the gist.

[Derek Palmer]

Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

[Mike Pesca]

So I know you didn't want to write a memoir. I know Chris wrote a memoir and you wanted to write the handbook and we're going to talk about this. But I like a lot of people think in terms of people and in terms of journeys. So I want to ask you some questions about yourself. Before you worked for Amazon, what was your job?

[Derek Palmer]

I've worked several, several jobs. I've worked at TJ Maxx, I've worked for warehouse, plenty other warehouse jobs as well. Williams Sonoma. And I've worked in retail grocery stores as well. Shoprite. So I've always been an essential worker.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, before you even knew that that was a title. What made you take the job at Amazon?

[Derek Palmer]

Well, at the time, you know, I was kind of like bouncing around from temp job. The temp job, yeah. And I actually found out about Amazon through my mom. You know, shout out to her, you know, she's the one who made all this happen.

[Mike Pesca]

So what year was this?

[Derek Palmer]

This was in 2015. That's when I first started.

[Mike Pesca]

So how long were you there before you started thinking about unions or someone put the idea of unionization in your ear? And I'll even say, had you ever been with shoprite? They have this very strong grocery workers union. Have you ever been unionized in the past?

[Derek Palmer]

Um, well, yeah, I did Work for shoprite. But I don't believe that store was unionized. If I'm not mistaken. It's been so long, I don't even remember at the time. Cause I was in high school. Um, but yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

Were you in unions in the past?

[Derek Palmer]

No. No. Technically never.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. And so when did you start thinking about it and how'd you start thinking about it with Amazon?

[Derek Palmer]

Well, I mean, the idea really came about just my experience with Amazon, just the treatment of the workers. You know, it just. It just wasn't. Wasn't a good thing at all. So, like, it was like a frustration that kind of built. You know, as time went on, I kind of noticed it. Note like 20, I would say 20, 15, 2016. I noticed. I was like, yeah, there's some problems here. You know, I just didn't know the proper way to go about. Really wasn't until after the pandemic. You know, actually during the pandemic, when me and Chris organized that walkout at JFK 8. And you know, that kind of like.

[Mike Pesca]

That was your warehouse. That was what they called the warehouse. Yeah. The very humane term for it. I don't know, maybe it would be worse if they called it, you know, Amazon happy place or something like that. Amazon Jello house. Yeah.

[Derek Palmer]

Yeah, I wish it was a happy place.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Derek Palmer]

Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

So you organize a workout there and give me some idea about some of the conditions. I think most of us, most of my listeners have read about lack of bathroom breaks and some of the physical toll that it could take on especially older workers. You're a healthy young man, but what did you see? What did you experience?

[Derek Palmer]

Yeah, I experienced a lot of people honestly risking their. Their, their health just to make it to work. You know, as, you know that there's no sick time at Amazon, so people were, you know, making it their business to be at work all the time. The conditions are just. They're very bad. You know, the dust in the air is bad. You leave work and you have like black, black snot in your nose. It's. It's really. It's really bad as far as that goes. Even like the. The microwaves and the, the refrigerators, they. Sometimes there's like roaches and roaches there. I found a lot of them there.

[Mike Pesca]

The waterfall where you're supposed to eat your lunch is full of roaches, you're saying.

[Derek Palmer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's been plenty of complaints. Even in Amazon's own internal system, the VOA board, there's been plenty of complaints about that. And really, it's Just working those long hours as well. That's the, that's the real issue. You know, working the 10 hours, 11 hours. Some, some workers even work 12 hours a day. So you know, those, all those conditions combined, you know, makes it, makes it pretty rough to work there.

[Mike Pesca]

Did they, did a time and a half situation ever kick in after eight? Did they ever up the pay for more hours?

[Derek Palmer]

No, you only work over, you only get overtime if you work over 40 hours. That's it.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. And so what they would do is they'd have you 10 hours or maybe 12 hours, three days a week and know not to schedule you the rest of the week.

[Derek Palmer]

Yeah, well, there's different type of schedules. Like I'm on a full time schedule. I work 40 hours, four days, four days a week, 10 hours. And then they have like a RT schedule or people that work the nighttime, they work 12 hours a day for three, three days and then have the other days off. So this different, different schedules they have.

[Mike Pesca]

So when you, and. Well, first of all describe your relationship with Chris at that point, were, did you meet at Amazon? Were you friendly based on bonding over these issues?

[Derek Palmer]

Yeah, I mean we, we actually met at Amazon. He was, he was my supervisor, quote unquote, supervisor, process assistant. And we met in 2019. Actually, I originally had a different manager. I forget, I honestly forget her name. It was, it was Ben, but I went under another manager named Bertram Bertrand Price and Christian Smalls is right underneath him and two black managers. And you know, we bonded. You know, me and Chris both around the same age and we both had similar stories with Amazon and we both from New Jersey. So it just connected and then come to find out we lived eight minutes from each other and didn't even know about it. So it was instant, instant connection here.

[Mike Pesca]

What's the demographic breakdown of the workforce in that warehouse, would you estimate?

[Derek Palmer]

Well, it's definitely majority people of color. I don't know the specific numbers off top, but it's definitely people of color. Is the majority of the warehouse workers,

[Mike Pesca]

the higher up you go in management, did that stay? Was that consistent? I don't mean to Bezos, but I mean just in the warehouse.

[Derek Palmer]

Well, I mean as time went on, there's been, I can say that there's been an increase of black and brown management, but I honestly think it's solely due to the article that was put out. I don't know if you read it, Jody Kantor. I was actually on the COVID of that New York Times article and it actually exposed the fact that there's a lack of black and Brown leadership in JFK 8. So I think ever since that article came out, it kind of motivated them to get more, to make themselves look good, you know what I'm saying?

[Mike Pesca]

Uh huh. Or not bad. Or let's stay off the COVID at the New York Times for this particular issue. Now, at the time, you didn't have a handbook like this. And as you write in the handbook, you wish you did, right? And this is for the next generation. But just take me through without a handbook, what was your. Or maybe Chris, who was your supervisor, maybe he knew more about it. What was your game plan for how to organize once you decided we need a union here?

[Derek Palmer]

Well, before we even started our campaign, me and Chris, we took the initiative to actually drive from New Jersey all the way to Alabama. Because at the time, the union, the rwdsu, they were attempting to unionize a facility down there in Bessemer, Alabama. In Bessemer, Alabama? Yes. So, yeah, that was like our homework assignment. That was where we kind of figured out what we were gonna do in our, you know, once we started. And we learned a lot from that campaign. So that was.

[Mike Pesca]

Did you call a union or did someone give you that idea? Or did you say, the only way we're gonna learn is to go see it in Alabama?

[Derek Palmer]

Well, that was just like our idea collectively, you know. Cause that's, that's what they were doing in Alabama. So we were like, you know what? We don't know how it's gonna turn out based on what we saw there. So we said, you know what? We're just learning from, you know, things that we saw as mistakes there. And we're gonna, you know, do our campaign the way that we wanted to do it. And that's more worker to worker, grassroots campaign. You know, we didn't want to get under a traditional union specifically at that time, because they might have had a different direction and they may have, you know, gave us the wrong insight. Because we have the most insight. We're working 10 hours a day. You know, even though Chris wasn't there, he still had an idea of how Amazon was, how Amazon operated. And I'm still in the building.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. Now tell me why Chris wasn't there.

[Derek Palmer]

Well, he was actually terminated in 2020, March 30, for organizing that walkout.

[Mike Pesca]

Before the walkout, how aware was management of what you were doing? What you were doing was maybe talking about a union, maybe just talking about a walkout, but talking about conditions amongst the workers. Did management know about this?

[Derek Palmer]

Oh, no, no, management wasn't really aware of that. You know, that was just. That was something that they were aware of, you know, after that. But during that time, they were just like, oh, they're just workers that are just complaining, you know. But we already had, we pretty much had like the leadership, quote unquote, roles inside of Amazon. So people kind of looked for. Looked at us as the people that, you know, like the spokespeak spokesperson at the time. And it just, I guess it just gradually built on and, you know, that's when Amazon started taking us serious, you know, after the walkout.

[Mike Pesca]

And when you decided to have the walkout, were you already pretty convinced that you were gonna work towards a union, that that was the end goal?

[Derek Palmer]

Yes, that was definitely the end goal at the time. You know, we just figured that we'd do this walkout and that'll get enough attention and Amazon will, you know, basically close the building down and sanitize it properly. That's all we really wanted. But they, they took it to another level and, you know, there was a, actually a memo that was leaked out, you know, from Jeff Bezos and the executive board talking about that walkout and labeling Chris as not smart or articulate. So once that came out, we knew that we were a threat to them and that, you know, we had to continue what we were doing. You know, whether it's more walkouts. Originally we were the, the Congress of Essential Workers. And that was basically getting a collective of different, different workers from different industries to be on the same page as us. And we went to all of Jeff Bezos mansions in the United States and, you know, just raised awareness.

[Mike Pesca]

The vote. Remind me one shot at it and you got unionized. You decided to. For the workers voted for the union the very first time you had the vote.

[Derek Palmer]

Yes.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. And so that's a little unusual for unions, right? To win a vote the first time out. Oftentimes it takes many votes to vote to unionize.

[Derek Palmer]

That is true, yes.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. Yeah. And what do you think the difference was with your union?

[Derek Palmer]

Oh, well, you know, I think it was. It was really, I would say, intimate. You know, like the, the core group that we have were all active Amazon workers and have been imported Amazon for multiple years. So, you know, when we're trying to, you know, communicate with workers how important it is to have a union or just get their insight on what changes need to be made, the union was always a solution to that problem. Now you got to deal with people that are scared. That's, that's one hurdle you Got to deal with people that, that just may have just negative feelings about it, and you can't let it discourage you. But ultimately, you know, that was the influence that Amazon couldn't, they couldn't counterattack it, even though they bought in union consultants. They bought in, they, they had captive audience meetings and basically downplayed all unions and made all workers attend these meetings so that they could be scared for the vote. But it didn't work because we had myself, you had other, other organizers speaking out at those meetings and instantly we gained more attention. But I didn't have any captive audience meetings, which was designed to discourage them. So we used, we used that against them. And it played along. It played a major part in the fact that we were consistent. We organized this whole thing for a whole year. Some of us were sleeping outside, across the street at the bus stop just to talk to both shifts, just to talk to night shift workers, just to talk to day shift workers. So we were in and out the building and consistent throughout the, throughout the entire duration of the campaign.

[Mike Pesca]

What was the difference between the success of your union and, for instance, what you just mentioned, how those sessions that were designed to maybe dissuade the union backfired on the company. Why doesn't that pattern hold in other places like Bessemer, which you mentioned, They've never unionized and the union that they're trying to join files as a complaint or not. Sometimes they file as an official complaint, sometimes they just note, well, it's really hard. Management has these companies that try to dissuade us, but with your case, you jujitsu them and used it against them. And that's my question. What's the difference between you and all these other places?

[Derek Palmer]

Well, you know, for, for Bessemer, with that campaign, for example, you know, like, like, like I was saying earlier, you know, there were some things that we saw early on that we kind of figured, damn, that that might, that might hurt them when it's time to vote. But I know that their core team at that, that first, that first initial vote, there wasn't as many organizers inside of the building. So I think that played a major role because you got to have people in all departments, or at least most departments, like basically that core leader. And they didn't really have that at the time, you know, when they were getting people to vote. The majority of them were online signatures. So our signatures were in person. So it does play a part. And I'm not too sure about their captive audience meetings, how they handled them. If you don't have enough leaders and they're not attending all these captive audiences meetings. There's people that are the workers that are maybe uneducated about unions. And then the first thing to hear about a union is that they're back and they were very consistent with their captive audience meetings down there in Alabama. So that really plays a huge role on the worker's psyche hearing these bad things about a union, which isn't the case. You know, the unions are designed to have a better, to have a better work experience for workers, you know, to have better pay, job security, things that they don't have in Amazon.

[Mike Pesca]

Derek Palmer is one of the organizers behind the Amazon union and he is out now with Handbook for the Revolution, Building a More perfect union for the 21st century. Derek, great to talk to you. Great to meet you.

[Derek Palmer]

Thank you for having me. I appreciate you.

[Mike Pesca]

Have you heard about the leak? The AI leak? Hugging face. They swore it wouldn't happen, but these computer systems tend to get outside of their parameters. It's amazing what hackers can do and what actors, bad actors on the scene could do. And you know this if you are an executive, if you are a C suite employee, because today's executives are more vulnerable and threatened and exposed than ever before. The tools available to the evildoers, the ne' er do wells, are more powerful than ever before. And this is why corporations spend billions on workplace security. But what happens when a threat hits an executive outside the office or the executive's family? You know, 70% of attacks on executives happen at home, away from the office. And, and Ironwall understands that it's terrifying. If someone wants to get you or your company, the first place they turn to is Google. And then the AI engines and then they find out about you and then your personal information is sitting out in the open. The team at Ironwall knows this better than anyone because they've protected some of the most targeted executives. They're a white glove enterprise security service. They protect your people with continuous personal data removal, proactive prevention tools, and an emergency support unit. So when someone goes looking for your executives, Ironwall ensures they hit a dead end. Here's what to do. Go to ironwall.com gist Fill out the quick form and request your free risk assessment. Your team will show just how exposed your executives are. It's all there. It's right there. You will see what the evildoers will see quite easily. And then the question is how to lock it down. Ironwall knows how to do it. They will do it before a threat reaches your front door. That's ironwall.com gist stop online threats before they become real world attacks. The link is in. The show notes the 2026 primaries are taking shape and you can trade on the largest political market on Kalshi. It's interesting, it's fun. You can put your insights in play for just a few dollars to reward yourself as I called that right. Right now there are Here's a good one. Arizona election There's a lot of US elections going on. So will Katie Hobbs hold on as governor of Arizona? She's at 81%. Andy Biggs gets a lot of attention. He's at 20%. Why doesn't it add up to 100? It never does. So meaning? I don't know. You want to take a flyer on Biggs. I'm not saying waste your money. Take a flyer and you bet 100 bucks on him, you win $473. Should Andy Biggs be the next governor of that grand state. On kalsheet you are trading against peers in a live market, meaning there's no house and as the probability changes, you could buy in and out of your position. 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So all these kids movies, that's about a third of all animated movies, are based on this premise. What if it were a world of blank? What if it were a world of bees, events, of cars, of racing slugs, of talking toys, of monsters, of sharks, of farm animals, of clownfish, of penguins, of rats, of Scientologists? Oh, you didn't get the subtext of Osmosis Jones. Anyway, that's what they do. They get the writers in the room, they say, we're going to make a movie about bees. We're going to call it B movies. Think about 100 associations you have with bees. Then they think about all those possible jokes. Now think about everything you know about humans. Ok, you do that automatically. See where the overlay is? There's a chance for humor. Anything where there's an overlap between the subject of your movie and what we as people do every day. For instance, in human, in English, we humans say, I'm going to crawl into a fetal position. But if you were an ant, you'd say, otherwise I would just curl up in a lava position and weep. Which is a pretty similar joke to this from cars. It's an old car talking to a younger car.

[Brian Greene]

Oh, he was a persistent little bugger

[Mike Pesca]

for a two cylinder. So humans have TiVo bees, we have

[Brian Greene]

HiVo, but it's a disease. It's a horrible, horrible disease.

[Mike Pesca]

How about when a bee picks out his clothes?

[Brian Greene]

Yellow, black, yellow, black, yellow, black, yellow, black, yellow, black, yellow, black. Oh, black and yellow. Yeah, let's shake it up a little

[Mike Pesca]

because that's their color scheme. So a lot of these are just cheap puns. Not that high object to cheap puns. The very title of the movie B Movie is kind of a cheap pun. But you know, movies like cars, they get a little more imaginative. They really get into the mind. So if cars existed, how would the world look? Oh, yeah, I guess clouds would be shaped like cars, things like that. And then they do the cheap puns also. So this gets to my movie. Here's my idea. What if it were a world of horses? So that's my idea. Wait a minute, Mike, that's terrible. No, no, you got to listen to the next part of the idea. A movie based on, like, all these other movies where we ask, what if it were a world of horses and only horses ruled the world? Horses went to work wherever, in offices. But the movie was made from the perspective of cows. So it would be about what if it were a world of horses? But it would be cows projecting their value systems onto horses. So there'd be nothing about quadrupedism, because that would just be taken as a given. But all the jokes would be about things like letting people. People ride on. You want a ride, have a ride. We're jockeying for position, right? And riding crops, not chewing one's cud. And like this need to go fast. There'd be hysterical jokes about how everyone wants to go really fast and not having four stomachs, but only one stomach. And silks. Oh, my God. With the cows make excellent jokes about how horses wear silks. Now, here's the thing. This might not fly, so I have a big even more meta idea, and this is Charlie Kaufman esque, but you could make a movie about a movie maker who spends his whole life trying to greenlight a horse movie about cows. So it'd be my story, me pitching the horse movie, as done by cows, to confused people. Or at least a really weirded out podcast audience. And that's it for today's show. Cory War produces the gist. Kathleen Sykes runs the Gist list. Ben Astaire is our booking producer, and Jeff Craig runs our socials. Michelle Pesca oversees it all benevolently. And thanks for listening.