The Gist – “Jeremy Hobson on the 'Rally Around the Flag' Risk in Iran”
Podcast: The Gist (Peach Fish Productions)
Host: Mike Pesca
Guest: Jeremy Hobson
Date: January 17, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode of The Gist features Mike Pesca joining Jeremy Hobson for the inaugural episode of “The Follow Up,” a new, more conversational podcast spinoff from The Middle. The core focus is on the dynamics and consequences of recent U.S. policy moves: the Trump administration’s hardline actions on immigration and foreign policy, particularly the risks of “rally around the flag” effects in Iran and the fallout from capturing Venezuelan leader Nicolas Maduro. The conversation blends sharp critique, dark humor, and journalistic self-reflection, offering context on law enforcement controversies, media responsibility, and the cost of extreme policy corrections.

Main Topics & Key Discussion Points

1. Opening Banter and Reflections on Broadcast Censorship

• The show opens with lighthearted banter about podcasting’s relaxed format (i.e., the ability to swear) and the hosts’ long professional history.
• Notable quote:
  • “Why do a podcast if you can’t do that?” – Jeremy Hobson, on letting loose on podcasts (09:17)

2. Minneapolis ICE Shooting – Lawful but Awful?

• Discussion of the fatal shooting of Renee Nicole Goode by an ICE officer in Minneapolis.
• Emotional impact on both hosts and the broader public, despite professional distance.
• Legal vs. moral dimensions: “It might fall into a category called ‘awful but lawful’.” – Mike Pesca (11:26)
• The Trump administration’s public branding of Goode as a “rioter and domestic terrorist” is critiqued for its disconnect from video evidence.
• Comparison to the aftermath and initial misreporting of George Floyd’s death.
• Speculation that the administration’s approach (defining “black as white”) is strategic, borrowing from post-January 6th tactics.
  • Pesca: “Maybe this is why the Trump administration thinks it’s a smart play to define black as white...” (13:34)
• Public reaction, even among Trump voters, is seen as a possible turning point:
  • Jeremy Hobson: “I voted for Trump and this is too far.” (17:23)
  • Listener Janine (voicemail): “I don’t recognize America. It makes me very sad... I don’t know where our humanity and our empathy has gone.” (16:29)

Breakthrough Moment

• Pesca argues that Trump’s “corrections” always go too far, using immigration as a prime example.
  • “Everything is solved with a butcher’s knife or with a chainsaw... the Trump administration goes too far. This is a feature of the Trump administration.” (17:36)

3. Venezuela and the Capture of Nicolás Maduro

• The U.S. capture of Venezuelan leader Nicolás Maduro (and his wife), drawing mixed international responses.
• Pesca highlights a key risk: lack of long-term planning or consideration for second-/third-order effects.
  • “That there is no plan for a year or two from now, that there was no, as far as I can tell, consideration of not the second, but maybe third order effects.” (19:31)
• The likelihood that removing one strongman simply opens the door for another or sours hopes for true democracy.
  • Pesca questions the sustainability of replacing a dictator with another unelected leader: “We really want a democracy, we don’t want a dictator whose only qualification is she’s still running the prisons… but she’s cutting the American administration in on their oil deals.” (20:28)
• Comparison to Iran: Trump’s threats risk uniting the Iranian populace against a common enemy instead of pressuring the regime.
  • “If the United States, the Great Satan, attacks… all but the most dedicated protesters will say, well, we at least now have a common enemy.” (03:09)
  • Strategic silence by Israel is noted: “If your enemy is intent on destroying himself, let him...” (04:00)

4. Anonymous Sourcing and Trust in Journalism

• In his “spiel,” Pesca reflects on a recent longform New Yorker profile of Marco Rubio by Dexter Filkins—specifically the heavy reliance on anonymous quotes.
  • The issue of trust and the interpretive bias of anonymous sources: “Anonymity, the granting of anonymity, works on us in ways we don’t always recognize.” (22:32)
• Examples of anonymity protecting sources but also making it easier to manipulate perception.
• Pesca critiques how anonymous characterization can nudge readers to accept conclusions (“Rubio bad”) without full context.
• Journalism lesson: “It’s important to try to limit the number of anonymous sources, not because it’s an invitation for lying, but because it’s kind of unfair… it goes further than a normal on-the-record quote would.” (26:23)
• Entertaining examples of “justified” anonymity and quotes from both prestigious and tabloid outlets.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Pesca on policy overreach:
  “Do sure, there’s government waste… And then people with AIDS in Africa are going to die, maybe hundreds of thousands of them because they attacked USAID. The Trump administration goes too far. This is a feature of the Trump administration.” (17:36)
• Hobson on emotional impact:
  “I don’t usually let myself get too affected by the terrible things that happen in the news… But this one really did hit me.” (10:35)
• Listener Janine (voicemail):
  “I just think it’s horrifying. It’s like we have lost our humanity. We’re just turning into this cruel country…” (16:29)
• Pesca’s warning on Iran:
  “The only thing that could save Iran… is a rally round the Islamic flag phenomenon. If the United States… attacks, then all but the most dedicated protesters will say, well, we at least now have a common enemy.” (03:09)
• Pesca on anonymous sources:
  “When you read a book, you put it in your voice, in your own head, and it’s an entirely different experience than when you listen to an audiobook…” (31:30)
• Pesca (with signature wit):
  “Rubio is advance.” (32:47)

Key Timestamps

• 00:00–08:56 – Pesca’s introduction, reflection on Trump’s Iran strategy, rally-round-the-flag, preview of topics
• 08:56–09:53 – Jeremy Hobson introduces The Follow Up and welcomes Pesca
• 10:35–16:18 – Discussion of the Minneapolis ICE shooting, legal/moral implications, administration response, public reaction (including listener voicemail)
• 17:36–18:50 – Pesca on the Trump administration’s tendency for excessive “corrections”
• 18:50–21:25 – Capture of Nicolás Maduro, U.S. plans (or lack thereof), potential fallout
• 21:58–32:47 – Pesca’s “spiel” on Marco Rubio profile, anonymous sourcing in journalism, how anonymity impacts public trust and perception

Tone & Style

The conversation is frank and unsparing, mixing careful analysis with biting humor and journalistic skepticism. Personal anecdotes and listener voices ground the policy debate in real-world emotional responses. Both hosts maintain a conversational, sometimes irreverent style that feels approachable and incisive.

Takeaway

Mike Pesca and Jeremy Hobson dissect how political overreach and reactive policymaking—whether in immigration enforcement or foreign interventions—can produce backlash, both at home and abroad. The pair warn that ignoring second-order consequences (like rallying adversaries or alienating core supporters) risks undermining American goals. Through their reflections on both politics and the media’s role, they urge for greater transparency, nuance, and responsibility.

For listeners seeking sharp, nuanced, and often funny insight into contemporary American politics and journalism, this episode delivers both critique and context—and a rare dose of humility about what anyone can truly know in turbulent times.