The Gist Podcast Summary

Episode: Noam Scheiber on the "Class Confidence" of the Overqualified
Date: April 6, 2026
Host: Mike Pesca
Guest: Noam Scheiber, New York Times labor reporter and author of Mutiny: The Rise and Revolt of the College Educated Working Class

Overview

This episode of The Gist centers on an engaging conversation between Mike Pesca and Noam Scheiber about Scheiber’s latest book, Mutiny: The Rise and Revolt of the College Educated Working Class. Together, they explore how a generation of college graduates, promised social mobility and prosperity, found themselves overqualified for the jobs available, underemployed, and increasingly radicalized toward labor organizing and collective action. The discussion dives into the economic forces that shaped these outcomes, the sociological phenomenon of "class confidence," and the real-world impacts of unionization efforts at major companies.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Pesca’s View on Unions

• Pesca shares personal anecdotes about his mixed experiences in unions—some beneficial (NPR’s transparent overtime pay), some problematic (WNYC’s protection of problematic employees, “the vibe over substance” at another workplace).
• Quote:

  "Their main job was not getting terrible people fired... Not a great union." —Mike Pesca [00:03–04:00]

Setting the Stage: The Changing Promise of College

• Both host and guest reflect on the changing economic calculus of a college education.
  • In the late ‘90s, a college degree was a surefire ticket to prosperity and opportunity.
  • Since the Great Recession, that calculus has drastically changed: more people go to college, but the degree’s economic value and signaling power have diminished.
  • Scheiber’s book chronicles the “gap between expectations and reality” felt intensely by those who did “everything right” (studied hard, went to college, took loans) and ended up in frontline jobs at Starbucks, Amazon, Apple, etc.
• Quote:

  "So, we just have this huge gap open up between the expectations of this generation... And then the reality of what life was like on the other side. And it's in that gap where my story happens." —Noam Scheiber [08:09–10:07]

Declining Value of the College Degree

• Statistics & Analysis:

  • Early 2000s: Many college graduates in non-degree jobs still did well (insurance, sales, bookkeeping).
  • Since mid-2000s: The number of "underemployed" but well-paid grads drops sharply; those in low-paying, non-degree jobs surges.
  • Timestamps: [10:50–12:16]

• Causes:

  • More people with degrees decrease their rarity and value.
  • Economy doesn’t produce more degree-required jobs at the same rate.
  • “Quality” of the degree matters more: top schools vs. for-profit and less selective institutions see widening gaps.

• Quote:

  "We have this huge increase from kind of the low 30s into the upper 30% of people going to college getting a degree. And... if you now have many more people with degrees to choose from, you're not as desperate. You know, it's a buyer's market, right? Not, not a seller's market." —Noam Scheiber [13:06–14:41]

For-Profit and Lower-Tier Colleges: Diminished Signaling, Questionable Returns

• Degrees from lower-tier or for-profit colleges are now less of an economic asset.
• Pesca voices skepticism about value for time and money spent versus entering the job market directly.
• Scheiber notes: there’s marginal evidence of some added value, but not enough to meet built-up expectations.
  • Timestamps: [15:22–16:59]

The Sociological Fallout: "Class Confidence" & Collective Action

• The "mutiny" Scheiber describes is not just economic but psychological and sociological.

  • Students were promised opportunity but experience disillusionment and disappointment.
  • College instills a sense of "agency" and "class confidence"—a belief that one can work the system and assert their rights.
  • This confidence feeds into the wave of workplace activism: unionizing, striking, petitions, and political engagement.

• Quote:

  "I quote a sociologist in my book who coined this term class confidence. And I think college gives you this kind of class confidence. ...You can go online and read the NLRA and kind of quickly understand what your legal rights are." —Noam Scheiber [20:03–21:41]

Case Studies: Unionization at Amazon, Starbucks, Apple

• Scheiber focuses on activist employees at high-profile companies.

  • Starbucks: 500+ stores unionized out of ~10,000, but no contract yet.
  • Microsoft: Video game QA testers managed a successful contract, with wage increases and AI protections.
  • Apple (Towson, MD store): Won a 10% pay increase over three years, plus significant job protections (limitations on temp workers).

• The psychological benefit of agency is clear, but tangible material gains are "mixed" and incremental.

  • Apple may simply extend benefits unilaterally, diluting union leverage; but local contracts can secure protections around job security.

• Quote:

  "On the material circumstances, I think the story is much more mixed...But they did get a whole variety of other protections that other people at Apple stores don't get." —Noam Scheiber [21:42–23:58]

Character Focus: Kaya from Apple Store Towson, MD

• Kaya’s Story:

  • Black woman, Baltimore County public school grad, pushed hard towards college (“Avid” program, parents support).
  • Switched from elite St. John’s College to Towson University (state school, communications degree).
  • Despite degree, her only viable job after college is at Apple Store—cool at first, then increasingly sales-focused and unsatisfying.
  • Her frustration and disappointment reflect broader generational experiences.

• Quote:

  "[Kaya] just found that over the years, the things that she liked about that job were slowly disappearing and she was gradually just getting pulled more and more into kind of a basic sales job that wasn't what she felt like she signed up for." —Noam Scheiber [26:50–27:15]

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the expectations gap:

  "The phenomenon that I try to get at in the book is the gap between expectations and reality. ...You get out of school. And it turns out all you can do is get a job at a Starbucks or an Apple store. Well, you're pretty pissed off about that." —Noam Scheiber [16:59–17:56]

• On agency and class confidence:

  "If you have gone to college, one thing that college teaches you is to have agency, to figure stuff out, to work the system...So I think for a lot of the folks that I talk to...it was a very empowering thing." —Noam Scheiber [20:03–21:41]

• On the mixed gains of unionizing:

  "I think it's been much more mixed. ...But they did get a whole variety of other protections that other people at Apple stores don't get. ...something that addresses a real material need and also addresses their anxieties and their frustrations over the loss of power." —Noam Scheiber [22:32–23:58]

• Pesca’s playful self-awareness:

  "I did the anti-journalistic, don't hook the audience thing of starting big with economics instead of people. You correctly start with characters." —Mike Pesca [19:20]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:03–04:00] Pesca’s union history and show setup
• [06:01–10:07] Scheiber's background & overview: Economic context for college grads
• [10:08–12:16] Data on underemployment and college degree value decline
• [13:06–14:41] Supply/demand dynamics and differentiation among colleges
• [16:15–16:59] Are non-elite degrees worth it?
• [17:56–19:20] The turn to unionizing and collective action
• [20:03–23:58] Empowerment, unionization results, and company case studies
• [24:03–27:15] Profile: Kaya, Towson grad and Apple Store worker

Tone and Language

• Thoughtful, analytical, occasionally wry or self-deprecating (Pesca joked, “I'll take the compliments” re: his nuanced or muddled view).
• Scheiber is data-driven and measured—careful not to overstate the power of unionization, but attentive to the genuine emotional and social benefits for participants.

Conclusion

This episode offers a rich, multifaceted look at the consequences of mass higher education, stagnating wages, and labor’s renaissance among college-educated workers. Scheiber’s book, and this conversation, amplifies the voices of young workers whose ambitions collided with economic headwinds—and for whom “class confidence” is both an asset and a source of unrest. Material wins for unions are incremental, but the broader assertion of collective agency may be the more profound legacy.

Stay tuned for part two of the interview in the next episode.