Not Even Mad: Elizabeth Bruening & Ben Kawaller

Summary

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The Gist – Not Even Mad: Elizabeth Bruenig & Ben Koala (July 2, 2026)

Main Theme

This episode is both a playful nod to July 4th traditions and a “valedictory,” final edition of the recurring debate segment "Not Even Mad." Host Mike Pesca, alongside guests Elizabeth Bruenig (staff writer, Atlantic) and Ben Koala (Times of London, Longview's Strange Bedfellows), examine the generational and ideological divides within the Democratic Party, the meaning and future of democratic socialism in America, and the religious positioning of political figures (notably J.D. Vance). Sprinkled throughout are signature moments of wit, detours into pop culture, and the hosts’ customary “goat grinders”—their unique version of pet peeves.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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[00:03:34] Dramatic Readings & July 3rd Americana

• Pesca opens with a playful riff on how July 4th media outlets (like NPR) read the Declaration of Independence, joking that they're always scooped by the 4th—so Gist provides a July 3rd twist. Readings include text from the Transformers film intro and Sarah Palin's 2009 resignation speech, followed by a tongue-in-cheek take on "Hangin’ Tough" by New Kids on the Block.
• Memorable moment: “Only dead fish go with the flow.” — Elizabeth Bruenig, as Sarah Palin [06:26]
• Sets a tone: History, pop culture, irony, all dissected with bemused affection.

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[12:48] Not Even Mad — Final Episode: Democratic Party, Socialism, and the DSA

• Pesca introduces the last-ever "Not Even Mad," laying out topics: the fate of “regular old Democrats,” the relevance of patriotism, and how the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) are reshaping Party discourse.
• Ben Koala jokes about being stood up at a "looksmaxing summit" as a lighthearted warmup.

Aging Democrats and DSA Victories

• Pesca: Highlights recent DSA-backed primary wins, notably younger, less white candidates unseating long-term incumbents.
• Bruenig ([15:56]): “There’s a very real sense that the Democratic Party is...aging. [...] People who are interested in voting for Democrats have more of a problem with it than people who are interested in voting for Republicans. [...] Young people are interested in democratic socialist policies, and I think we’ve seen that for years now.”
• Koala ([17:21]): Surprised by how Israel/Palestine has become a galvanizing issue in local U.S. politics, noting that “genocide” rhetoric now drives primary activism.

What Can (or Should) Socialists in Congress Do?

• Pesca ([18:26]) asks Bruenig what practical power a small number of socialists in Congress might wield.
• Bruenig ([19:06]): Advocates for the value of congressional investigations and public record-building; sees these as consciousness-raising rather than solely legislative.
• Pesca ([20:18]): Pushes back, citing the limitations and virality (more than policy impact) of such investigations.

What Do "Socialism" and "Capitalism" Actually Mean for the DSA?

• Koala ([21:15, 24:45]): Pushes for defining terms; notes discomfort with DSA’s language: “When you talk about socialism...the DSA still on their website says we have to move beyond capitalism, we have to replace capitalism.”
• Bruenig ([22:54]): “I hope that people who consider themselves socialists are thinking of capitalism not as a way to describe markets, but as the control of political economy by capitalists...that is what, you know, your sort of doctrinaire socialists have in mind.”
• Cites survey stats: New Jersey DSA members were disproportionately anarchists and Marxists rather than democratic socialists.
• Koala ([27:57]): Reads the DSA constitution, which calls for a rejection of “an economic order based on private profit.”
• Bruenig ([28:58]): Counters with the Scandinavian model: “...you also have in those same places private profit. You have private ownership of businesses. You have markets. That's what I have in mind when I think of democratic socialism.”

Debating Practical DSA Policies—Rent Control, Medicare for All, AI Wealth Funds

• Pesca ([32:00]): Questions if DSA platforms are intentionally vague to maximize inclusivity/winning.

• Koala and Bruenig debate DSA’s rent control policies:

  • Bruenig ([36:06]) gives a public defender’s perspective on the human impact of evictions—recognizes trade-offs but maintains rent policy helps real people.
  • Koala ([36:56]): Argues rent freezes reduce supply, don’t fix root problems.
  • Pesca ([37:36]): Notes huge gap between political symbolism of rent freezes and real-world outcomes.

• AI Policy: Bruenig notes her husband helped write Bernie Sanders’ AI-specific sovereign wealth fund proposal—envisioned not as government directing tech companies but sharing in their profits for collective benefit. Koala sees risk in government overreach but supports the wealth fund idea in theory.

Will Socialists Be Judged on Substance?

• Pesca ([33:35]): Wonders, “...are we going to get DSA people into positions of power who can do nothing...because they're this tiny minority...such that other socialist candidates have a chance going forward?”
• Bruenig ([34:52]): Hopes signature policies like Medicare for All—if enacted—will “acquit DSA and Democratic Socialists who may not associate with that particular organization very well.”
• Pesca ([42:01]): Notes that as major issues (like “genocide” and Israel/Palestine) become wedge issues, bread-and-butter socialist policies (Medicare for All, the environment) are less frequently used as rallying cries, because they no longer distinguish DSA from mainstream Democrats.

Future Overreach and Risks for DSA

• Pesca ([43:59]): Asks what policies DSA might embrace that could risk discrediting them.
• Bruenig ([44:20]): Cites “moonshot” climate tech (e.g., decarbonization), nuclear energy, and AI policies as her priorities—but notes not all DSA members would agree.

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[47:13] Faith and Public Life: The J.D. Vance Book Tour

• Topic: J.D. Vance’s new book on his faith journey, "Communion: Finding My Way Back to Faith."
• Pesca notes Vance’s book tour has often pivoted to political topics (e.g., Iran deal), with little focus on his Christianity.
• Bruenig ([48:09]): Calls out Vance’s rhetorical “childless cat lady” jab (ironically, nuns fit the description).
• Notable quote: “He says he’s not afraid of hell. He’s not worried about the fate of his own soul. Wild...Especially for someone...involved in policies and causes that have death tolls that clearly hurt people that the Pope is upset about.” — Bruenig
• Points out Vance’s instrumental view of Christianity—as social control and as a pillar of Western civilization—rather than theological truth.
• Koala ([50:57]): Is “more sympathetic to the concern about the West,” sees value in Christianity for social unity, even as a nonbeliever.
• Bruenig ([52:57, 53:10]): “Yeah, I pray for forgiveness every night...if we’re actually judged on those grounds, then yeah, I mean, yeah, I think it’s a real risk.” (on whether she's afraid of hell)
• Pesca ([55:07]): Questions the usefulness/fairness of “hypocrisy hunting” with politicians’ public religious professions.
• Bruenig ([55:33]): Flags the unorthodox mix in Vance’s faith: “He says, ‘I converted to Catholicism. I love Catholicism. I have nothing in common spiritually with how the faith has been traditionally practiced. And also I beef with the Pope.’ That’s the big one.”
• Bruenig ([58:02]): Analyzes Vance’s attraction to Catholicism as a search for intellectual credibility and social status, having grown up in low-church Protestant environments.

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[62:20] Faith Journeys: Bruenig’s Own Conversion

• Pesca to Bruenig: Why Catholicism?
• Bruenig ([62:17]): Converted as a grad student at Cambridge: “I converted not for reasons having to do with the West...but Catholicism has a textual accompaniment tradition like Judaism does, like the Midrash. And I was like, that’s exactly how you practice this religion…”
• Family was “not thrilled,” but accepted her decision.

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[62:40] “Goat Grinders” — Pet Peeves

Mike Pesca on Soccer Lingo

• Pesca ([62:40]): Annoyed when American broadcasters use British soccer terminology like “nil” for zero, “kits” for uniforms without context or necessity.

Elizabeth Bruenig on True Crime Media

• Bruenig ([64:38]): Critiques the effect of sensationalized true crime documentaries on public attitudes toward justice and the death penalty: “Exposure to sort of super editorialized facts...put to horror movie music and presented strictly as the prosecution’s version...will produce an emotional reaction ... that can be counterproductive.”
• Notable quote ([66:51]): “That’s my take. [...] The idea of capital punishment is that it’s reserved for capital crimes, the very worst of the worst. [...] So I would just push back on these people and be like, you’re just mistaken. You’re in favor of the death penalty.”

Ben Koala on Customer Service Language

• Koala ([67:52]): Rails against the phrase “welcome in” when entering stores—a recent, grating customer service trend.
• Brief riff on the difference between honest hostility and false pleasantries.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “Only dead fish go with the flow.” — Elizabeth Bruenig, reading as Sarah Palin [06:26]
• “There’s a very real sense that the Democratic Party is… aging… Young people are interested in democratic socialist policies…” — Elizabeth Bruenig [15:56]
• "It seems to have galvanized a lot of people and it's, you know, I see people who would have thought that a foreign policy issue on the other side of the world would have anything to do with New York City." — Ben Koala on Israel/Palestine’s impact in primaries [17:21]
• "I hope that people who consider themselves socialists are thinking of capitalism not as a way to describe markets, but as the control of political economy by capitalists..." — Elizabeth Bruenig [22:54]
• "It would be great if you could go to every member of DSA and say, ‘Let’s all do our homework, … and then we'll speak in lockstep…’ But as I said, … this is a membership organization. There is no required reading…" — Elizabeth Bruenig [26:24]
• "Are the Bruenigs against private profit? If so, can I get a refund on my Patreon subscription…?" — Mike Pesca, poking fun at the complexities of socialist thought [28:46]
• “You don’t have to have a different way of saying a standard number zero just because in some countries where they don’t say zero, they say nil. It is annoying.” — Mike Pesca [63:43]
• "You’re just mistaken. You’re in favor of the death penalty. [...] This thing you’re pointing to is why it’s there." — Elizabeth Bruenig [67:21]
• “I prefer outward hostility to lousy writing.” — Ben Koala [69:10]

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Episode Structure & Flow

• Playful historical and pop-culture-themed openers “in anticipation” of Independence Day
• Core segment: Political roundtable (Not Even Mad final) covers Democratic gerontocracy, DSA rising, debates socialism vs. capitalism, and the risks/rewards of DSA influence
• Faith in politics: from J.D. Vance’s book to larger religious themes, including Bruenig’s own journey
• "Goat grinders": signature segment of personal frustrations, delivered in the show’s dry, wry style

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For New Listeners

This episode is a rich, balanced, and irreverently honest snapshot of the American political and media zeitgeist. Expect sharp but civil debate, probing of ideological boundaries, and a double helping of social observation—all delivered with a mix of earnestness, skepticism, and a touch of late-night humor. Even if you missed the broadcast, this summary arms you with all the political, philosophical, and cultural arguments (and jokes) that “Not Even Mad” made its name on.

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Transcript

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[Mike Pesca]

It's Thursday, July 2, 2026, from Peach Fish Productions. It's the Gist. I'm Mike Pesca and you know, as we were saying goodbye, or until the gist becomes something else slightly different, I was going through the archives trying to bring you some old segments, some old episodes, some old bits. So I went to look for july fourth episodes. Only there are no july fourth episodes because july fourth's a holiday. So we did july third epis. Now this year there's no july third episode tomorrow because that's the holiday. There's what happens when the holidays go on to the weekends. I guess everyone likes it the three day weekend. I personally like the four day week. I'd rather have the four day week than three day weekend, but they tend to go together. So I found this old episode from July 3, which was in anticipation of July 4. And today on a July 2, I want to bring you the old July 3 episode. This one's from 2017 and I totally forgot that I did it then. We're going to come out of it. We're going to do a not even Mad episode. But first to the archive machine eight years ago. I forgot. I want to thank the voice actors too. I forget who they all are. I can't identify them by voice. Catherine Wyncoop was one. I remember her. I think she was working. I don't, I don't want to get this wrong, more on the business side of Slate at the time, but she was game and I would always go up to her and I said, coop, you want to do a Voice acting bit. She was always a yes. And she stars as one eighth of the Sarah Palin. Anyway, I don't want to step on it was a lot of fun to hear and I hope you like it, too. And then back with not even mad. It's Monday, July 3, 2017. From Slate, it's the Gist. I'm Mike Pesca. So tomorrow, July 4, NPR will be doing the thing it's been doing for three decades where members of the staff to a dramatic reading of the Declaration of Independence. When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, Other organizations have gotten into this. There is a tape of actors, Kevin Spacey, Morgan Freeman, so forth, doing a dramatic reading of the Declaration. The NFL issued their own version of a dramatic reading of the Declaration. If you want to hear Don Shula read a clause written by Jefferson that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

the consent of the governed.

[Mike Pesca]

Now they have the advantage of reading the Declaration of independence on July 4th. We're going to take this idea, we're going to apply it to July 3rd. All right, they own the 4th. They own the Declaration. That's a famous document crafted on the fourth. We're going to one up them, we're going to get ahead of the game, but we need a good July 3rd famous text. So I went through the archives, dusted off the parchment, and here's what I found. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you this dramatic reading of a film that first entered our national consciousness on this date, July 3rd, 2007.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Our planet was once a powerful empire, peaceful and.

[Mike Pesca]

Until we were betrayed by Megatron, leader of the Decepticons.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

All who defied them were destroyed. Our war finally consumed the planet, and the Allspark was lost to the stars. Megatron followed it to Earth, where Captain Witwicky found him.

[Ben Koala]

I am Optimus prime and I send this message to any surviving Autobots taking refuge among the stars. We are here. We are waiting.

[Mike Pesca]

You know, maybe. Maybe the Transformers isn't where I was riveted, but maybe we need to go with the historic Americana. Let's go back in the past and give you this dramatic reading of an event that occurred July 3, 2009. The resignation speech of Sarah Palin. Well, people who know me know that besides faith and family, nothing is more

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

important to me than our beloved Alaska.

[Mike Pesca]

Serving her people is the greatest honor

[Ben Koala]

that I could imagine.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

This land is blessed with clean air and water and wildlife and Minerals and oil and gas. It's energy. God gave us energy. So to serve the state. It is such a humbling responsibility because I know in my soul that Alaska is of such importance for America's security in such a volatile world today we

[Mike Pesca]

are doing so well.

[Ben Koala]

My administration, my administration's accomplishments, they speak for themselves.

[Mike Pesca]

We broke new ground on the new prison.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

I really wish you would hear more from the media, more from the media of your state's good progress and how we tackle our outside interests, special interests. Daily we're tackling those interests that would stymie our state, even those debt ridden stimulus dollars.

[Ben Koala]

I've been accused of all sorts of frivolous ethics violations such as holding a fish in a photograph.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

That's a quitter's way out to just kind of hunker down and go with the flow. We're fishermen, we know that only dead fish go with the flow.

[Mike Pesca]

Or perhaps even more transcendent than that. I was looking to music. Three horrible tragedies actually happened on July 3rd, years apart. Brian Jones of the Rolling Stones died. Jim Morrison died. And perhaps saddest of all, July 3, 1989, the new kids on the block released their single Hangin Tough. Here now a dramatic reading of that.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Listen up everybody if you want to

[Mike Pesca]

take a chance Just get on the floor and do the new kids dance

[Ben Koala]

don't worry about nothing cuz it won't

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

take long we're gonna put you in

[Mike Pesca]

a trance with a funky song Cuz

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

you gotta be hanging tough Hanging tough

[Mike Pesca]

hanging tough we're rough oh oh oh oh oh oh oh on the show today today today it is the last ever not even mad. We have Liz Brunegon. We have Ben Koala on a disparate pair, but one that works well. This was one of the things that not even mad was trying to do. So enjoy me, Liz and Ben. The 2026 primaries are you may have heard all around us and you could trade the biggest political races on cow she on Kalshee, you could trade major primaries, election outcomes and the biggest political storylines as they happen. I'll tell you about one election I'm looking at and trading or thinking of trading on Calshi. And I'll get you inside my mindset. So let's look at Maine Senate, right? Platner Collins. Back in May, Kalshee had Graham Platner at 71% and Susan Collins at 29%. So if you put money on Susan Collins, invested in her on the platform, you'd get more than three times your return. Now it's at Platner 60, Collins 40. Now here's the thing. Couple things about this. You let's say you think that Collins won't win, but you think more oppo research is coming out on Platner and he's going to take a hit. But eventually just the politics of Maine will win out, which is that it's a much more Democratic statement. Kalshee isn't like a bet. It's like a stock market investment. So if the Collins stock goes from, let us consider it a stock if that commodity goes from a 40% chance of winning to a 70% chance of winning, even if she doesn't win, if you cash out at 70, you still have made a good deal of profit on your investment. And here's the other thing about calcium, what it allows you to do with political races. Sometimes I invest on or predict these races as a hedge against disappointment. So if I want one candidate or one party to win or specifically would be very upset were a candidate to win, I sometimes invest in that candidate in case they do win. Well, I didn't want that person serving in government, but you know, I got 40 bucks in my pocket if you makes it go down a little better on Calshi, you're trading against your peers in a live market, meaning there's no house except of Representatives. And as the probability changes, you can buy in and out of your position for a limited time. Download the Kalshi app and use the code gist to get $10 when you trade 10k a l s h I kalshi trade on anything 18 plus restrictions and eligibility requirements apply. Event contract trading involves risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Prices, values and available markets may differ from those mentioned. For more information, see kalshee.com regulatory working outside in the springtime means you're dealing with chilly mornings and hot afternoons and everything in between. Working outside in summer is a whole other kettle of, well, wetness. And that's where your workwear that you're wearing of cotton blends isn't working. It restricts your movement. It gets soaked after a few raindrops. But True Work uses advanced performance fabrics to build products designed specifically for work on the job site. And I'm also going to introduce you to the T2 work pant, which keeps you comfortable over a wide range of conditions. I use the T2, use it, I wear it. I I also have these great shorts. The wicking. Just the wicking. It's an excellent, excellent way to look fashionable and actually get the job done. The work doesn't stop just because the weather changes. Upgrade to the T2 work pant and stay comfortable no matter what the day brings. Get 15% off your first [e-mail] with code the Gist that's T R U E W E R C Code the Gist True work. Built like it matters because it does. The Genesis GV70 with all its award winning tech and performance is built to thrill.

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[Mike Pesca]

Hello and welcome back to the show that contracted with Black Sky Associates to clean up coal plants and then we're surprised by what they got. It's not even mad. Today we speak of the plight of regular old Democrats. Do they need a retirement home, a halfway house or Habitat for Humanity? We speak of patriotism and partisanship and J.D. vance's personal relationship with the Lord and the Pope. As we do so, we promise to uphold our reputation for refutish while at the same time vowing to be not even mad. So who are we in this valedictory episode of not even Mad? We're Ben Koala, who was the lead reporter on Longview's Strange Bedfellows. He's a contributor in the Times of London. And you just got stiffed and stood up by Clavicular, didn't you? In one of the capacity. In your professional capacity. Ben.

[Ben Koala]

That's right. I went to Miami. He was doing a summit, a looks maxing summit. And I wanted some of his wisdom. So I schlepped down there and put myself up at a hotel. Well really the Times did. And then the day before the event he his one of his thugs calls and says oh, it's not happening.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, horrible.

[Ben Koala]

You used to fell very significantly in

[Mike Pesca]

my esteem you use the word scam maxing, I believe.

[Ben Koala]

I, well, I haven't been, I haven't seen a refund yet. I'll say that.

[Mike Pesca]

We're also Elizabeth Bruinig, who's a staff writer at the Atlantic. She was a finalist for the Pulitzer when she was with the Washington Post. She'd been with the New York Times. And what is your relationship to clavicular or have you talked about any amount of draw maxing in your personal life?

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Elizabeth? You know, it's funny because he's like working this hyper masculine beat, but he's like an, an obviously pretty man.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

There's something passingly feminine about him.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

You know, it's, it's ironic. It's crazy.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, I, I mean, I think it's on brand. Right. Also like Nick Fuentes, the scared of girls to the point of does he really like them type.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

So turning to politics, not that clavicular is not going to dominate U.S. politics in five years. But the DSA did very well, specifically in two of the three races in New York. Brad Lander, one, not DSA, but Imam Donnie, DSA back candidate. And then in Colorado, well, Michael Bennett did lose in his race for governor. That wasn't a DSA upset. But Milad Kiros, she defeated the 15 term incumbent, Diana de Zette. So, Elizabeth, as someone who perhaps, and you tell me identifies with at least the middle part of dsa, the socialism part, I have a few questions for you. But let's start with this. Do you think it was the socialism that won the day or the fact that the winning candidates were much younger than the incumbents they ran against in almost every case, and not as white?

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's hard to separate those two things out. But I think, you know, there's a very real sense that the Democratic Party is, as you're pointing to, aging. I mean, Ken Klippenstein has been one of the strongest critics of the Democrats on the grounds that, you know, it's a gerontocracy. These are really, really old people. And Sam Moyn wrote a book recently along those same lines. And I mean, it's not that the Republicans don't have those same problems, but I think that people who are interested in voting for Democrats have more of a problem with it than people who are interested in voting for Republicans. And then I think what goes along with that feeling that the Democrats are sort of hapless and hobbled and tied to another time is the sense that they're wedded to Policies that young people aren't all that interested in. Young people are interested in democratic socialist policies. And I think we've seen that for years now. I think it became obvious when you looked at the age breakdown of whose supported Bernie Sanders in the 2016 primaries and then 2020. So I think, you know, it's a combination of, of all of those factors. I think that that put these folks over the top.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. And a little anti genocide. Say the word genocide. No, you didn't say it recently. How big a role do you think that played, Ben?

[Ben Koala]

I think it seems to have, this seems to be this galvanizing issue which was so this came out of complete left field for me growing up in, in and among liberal circles. I never would have thought that Israel would become this lightning rod issue. It seems to have. There are people that I grew up with who are very comfortable calling what Israel is doing a genocide in a way that really surprises me and it's hard for me to say what was sort of determinative. But this, it seems to have, I mean this is, it's a, it seems to have galvanized a lot of people and it's, you know, I see people who would have thought that a foreign policy issue on the other side of the world would have any, would have anything to do with the New York City, with local elections or, you know, I mean, well, of course this is Congress, but you know, the fact that this was something Mamdani was talking about is just so surprising to me.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, I say let's have a good faith argument about socialism. To quote an Elizabeth Bruining article from I think 2018. I want to know, what do you think, Elizabeth? Will they let us say there are half a dozen, a dozen socialists, actual socialists in the US Congress. They're not going to be able to craft their own legislation, but they can be something like a fulcrum or a stumbling block. What do you think they could do? I was just thinking they could advocate for more antitrust. They could add some more teeth to regulators in bills. They can, they can threaten to withhold their votes until they get more social spending. But what else can they really do? Do you think?

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

So one thing I'm always interested in in Congress and I think AOC has really been great on this front, are investigations, Congressional investigations. It's not necessarily the case that the outcomes of those investigations do a whole lot for the American people. I mean, they can, but they add a lot to the public record. And I think they help the American people, the voters think about their political realities and their political options. So even though there aren't enough socialists in Congress and probably won't be for a very long time to sort of form their own caucus and force the Democrats to cooperate with them on bills, I think that they can do a lot to sort of raise consciousness among voters in a way that could encourage those voters to consider Democratic socialists or, you know, other assorted socialist candidates going forward. That would be my hope. A sort of dark horse hope. Aside from what they could do legislatively. And I think a lot of what you point to legislatively, especially with adding teeth to regulations, especially for the financial industry, I do have a lot of hope for.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, I'm interested that you said that because I think of the people who got a lot of attention for their investigations as being people like Katie Porter, who came in a distant fifth in the California primary for governor, and I do think Crockett as well. Sometimes they have these moments and the moments go viral. But I don't know that investigations have really changed things substantively. The most celebrated investigation was the January six one, which I think is a show, did pretty well and had really nothing to do with socialism. There were literal Republicans on the panel. But what did it really do? Or am I being too cynical, do you think?

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

No, I don't think that's terribly cynical. And like I said, you know, I'm looking for bright spots because it is the fact that there are just very few of these people. It's a minority political position in this country. It's a minority political position in the Democratic Party.

[Ben Koala]

I kind of feel like we should define some terms first here, because when you talk about socialism, a lot of the policies that, you know, I canvassed for Bernie Sanders in the 2020 election, I was always very sympathetic to a lot of the social safety net kind of programs that the DSA supposedly champions. But the DSA still on their website, says we have to move beyond capitalism, we have to replace capitalism. And I think it's strange that the, you know, this promise to America, which. Which to me reads as like the most, like, uncontroversial anodyne statement that's like, we're pro capitalism, we're pro growth. We want that. We want more Americans to take, you know, to. We got less income inequality. It all seems kind of milquetoast Democratic stuff. So far they've gotten 15 people to sign it. And to me, like that actually, that to me shows that the word capitalism has taken on a negative charge. And I think it's because people equate capitalism with this feeling that corporations have too much power and that what really people are angry about is corporatism. And, but it's very confusing for me to see, to see people coming out against capitalism, which of course is like the, the mechanism that has produced all of the wealth in this country and that produces wealth generally. So I don't know, Liz, like, how serious is this? Like, do these socialists or democratic socialists, are we like actually like, no, we don't want, we don't want capitalism?

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a range of views, you know, socialists are notorious for within the confines of socialism, balkanizing into all kinds of little fragmentary groups that have different approaches and different ideas about what political economy should look like. But I think, I hope that people who consider themselves socialists are thinking of capitalism not as a way to describe markets, but as the control of political economy by capitalists, people who own the means of production controlling the economy. And I mean, I know there's other ways to describe that, but I think in general that is what, you know, your sort of doctrinaire socialists have in mind.

[Ben Koala]

But when you have.

[Mike Pesca]

So let me just, let me just interrupt and give, lay on a couple statistics here, which is, Ben, when you said this showed me that capitalism is not. The fact that people wouldn't sign this somewhat anodyne pledge that representatives like Tom Suozzi and Josh Gotheimer have signed. This represents that capitalism is sullied. Yes. So did the polls, especially among the young. Less than half, 45% told Gallup that they viewed capitalism positively, a 12 point decline since two years ago. And some other statistics, when you were saying, what do we, let's define socialism. So a survey of New Jersey DSA members and there's New Jersey, who knows, they're crazy out there sometimes, but 39.3% identified as anarchists and 35.7% identified as Marxists, 10.7% as democratic socialists. So are they socialists? Are they anti capitalists? Are they anti the people who control the Capitol? But yeah, go ahead. These were just statistics. These were just surveys. This is substance. Please, Ben, continue.

[Ben Koala]

I mean, anarchists, I, I mean, like my impression and like, you know, I mean, I went to the DSA convention three years ago and it's, it did seem like that the, that people were behind this. Like, yeah, we need to not, not have capitalism. We want to get rid of. It wasn't just, no one was saying, no, no, no, we're not saying that we don't want markets. We're saying that we don't want them to have so much power. I didn't hear that distinction. And that's all I want.

[Mike Pesca]

What do you mean? Wait, clarify what didn't. What were the.

[Ben Koala]

Like, it would have been a relief if someone had said what Liz just said, that like, no, this isn't about getting rid of private enterprise. This is about getting rid of corporations and the wealthy. Having undue power in the like. That is something that I could get behind. But why is the DSA not taking, not going out of its way to say, hey, just because, you know, we know that like communism has like a really bad track record and we know that capitalism, like private enterprise and free markets and, you know, you can do, you can regulate those, but just, you know, business, like commerce, like is generally good for a society. Why is the DSA not going out of its way to say we're not saying let's get rid of capitalism. Why are they, you know, the. Instead they're saying down with. I mean, there's a rabid anti capitalist fervor to this wing of things. And it doesn't help that you have Donnie casually saying things like seizing the means of production, which he said, you know, four years ago or something. So what do you say to that, Liz?

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Well, I mean, it would be great if you could go to every member of DSA and say, let's all do our homework, we'll all do the reading, we'll discuss what turns out terms mean, and then we'll speak in lockstep so that we're all meaning the same thing by what we say. But as I said, you know, this is a membership organization. There is no required reading before you join. So people probably have a lot of different ideas in mind when they talk about socialism and capitalism and what these terms mean. I mean, that's maddening. It's hugely maddening. Are there Marxists who just kind of have a certain view of history and political economy and it's a descriptive thing? I mean, yeah, those people are in there. Are there sort of communists who believe that we should have only state owned enterprise, that the, you know, the people should own the means of production and control it democratically? Yeah, those people are in there. Are there people who sort of get wound up in defending Mao and Stalin? I mean, absolutely, those people are in there. And these are different caucuses of people within the dsa. You know, for my, my husband, who's a, you know, influential thinker about democratic socialism, he's interested in stuff like sovereign wealth funds. Bernie Sanders just put Out a policy about sort of AI sovereign wealth fund. This doesn't mean that markets go away. It doesn't mean that private ownership goes away. It just means that the state owns some of the wealth being produced in the country and can, you know, disperse it for the good of, you know, the common good. Let's say.

[Ben Koala]

Yes, Yes. I like total, like no objection to that as far as I, in my limited knowledge of wealth funds and all of that stuff. But like, let me read like the. This. I'm just like when I get this impression of this, it's not from like, oh, I heard some random crazy DSA person say, down with capitalism. This. The constitution of the DSA as amended by the 2025 National Convention. We are socialists because we reject an economic order based on private profit. Okay. Alienated labor. Yeah, that's. I don't like alienated labor either. Gross inequalities are kind of bad. You know, but like the first thing it says is we're against private profit. Okay, well then, I mean, really like art is. Do you think that that's the. That that is what, that that's a position the DSA should be embracing?

[Mike Pesca]

Are the bruinigs against private profit? If so, can I get a refund on my Patreon subscription to the podcast called the Bruinings? Are the Bruinings just bruining washing what the DSA is actually about? No, but please, please do it.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

No, that is not my understanding. You know, when you look at the, you know, socialist countries of, let's say, you know, the Scandinavian countries, right, that do have some state ownership of wealth because they do, for example in Norway have a sovereign wealth run. There are state owned enterprises, especially for utilities in those countries that work very well. I think. You know, you also have in those same places private profit. You have private ownership of businesses. You have markets.

[Ben Koala]

Yes, yes, totally.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

That's what I have in mind. When I think of democratic socialism. I don't see it. And in fact I see what makes democratic socialism special versus sort of totalitarian forms of socialism like you had in, you know, the Soviet Union, for example, is that it is amenable to a kind of hybridized economy where you do have sort of the best of both worlds. And you have you know, also entering into that picture that I think is really key are these powerful labor unions. They don't even have to have a minimum wage in some of the Scandinavian countries because the labor unions just take care of bargaining that and they have so much strength that they're able to create for themselves a very nice de facto minimum wage. And so I think that's another piece of what we look for under a democratic socialist regime.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, well, they have sector based bargaining which would be very interesting if we could have it. We seem light years away. I will just answer the question you put out there, Ben. Why doesn't the DSA or the socialists, if they are good Brunic style socialists, say we're not communist? Because that would tamp down enthusiasm and they're on a winning streak and the last thing they want to do is tamp down enthusiasm. So if 30 or 40. Yes, but if 30 or 40% of their members, or maybe it's just New Jersey, but if some large percentage identifies this or teleposter this, you don't want to do anything to dissuade them now in this moment, maybe something will come where it's incumbent upon them to clarify, to distance themselves from, I don't know, Mao and Stalin, over 100 million people.

[Ben Koala]

I don't know. They'll need to, I mean, like, look, because this sounds so, I mean to me it sounds crazy, but we are socialists because we share a vision of a humane social order based on popular control of resources and production, economic planning, equitable distribution, feminism, racial equality and non oppressive relationships. You know, some of that stuff, it's sort of hard to, you know, I don't, I don't like oppression. I don't, you know, but like some

[Mike Pesca]

of it could come right from Kamala Harris's platform.

[Ben Koala]

Sure. Economic planning, popular control of resources. I mean, like these are not, this is not a capitalistic sounding at all. This just sounds to me like the hallmarks of communism. Not the sort of Nordic style like the government is invested in the markets. This to me sounds like. No, we want the government to be planning things economically and all of us collectively owning things. So, you know, this sounds pretty commie ish to me. Am I, am I crazy or Liz,

[Mike Pesca]

also, how do these platforms get written? Are they written aspirationally? Are they written so as to not alienate perhaps the more radical members?

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Yeah, I think they're written hugely by committee. You know, I think dsa, it has

[Mike Pesca]

leadership, if you will. Right.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

But aspires to be very horizontal in a lot of ways. So I think a lot of hands go into deciding what this stuff is going to look like.

[Ben Koala]

Yeah, well, that may be why. It's maybe why you have this crazy constitution then. And doesn't that sort of ironically, you get what I'm saying? I mean, yes. When you have A collective doing things. It's not often not as good. You should have written it, but then you would have to have had an hierarchy, and they would have had to acknowledge that you had some that were. Were better.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

There's actually kind of a funny incident, and I think 2018, where I was voted out of DSA by Google Poll for being Catholic.

[Mike Pesca]

Does that have the power of law, by the way?

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

But here's the punchline. I wasn't in it.

[Ben Koala]

Oh, you're not in the dsa?

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

No, I was voted out, but I wasn't in it.

[Ben Koala]

Oh. I mean, were you ever.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

No.

[Ben Koala]

Okay. Well, you identify as cat.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

As Democratic Socialists, a Democratic Socialist. Right. But DSA is a party. That's right. And so it's like saying that you're a person who's in favor of democracy doesn't make Democrat.

[Ben Koala]

Yeah, well, that's an important distinction.

[Mike Pesca]

And it's also interesting because DSA is a party, but it's also because they acknowledge that there are only real two parties that could win. It's also a movement to, you know, take control of the host Democratic Party. And to some extent, in certain districts, it is. Do you think we'll ever get to the point where the thing that credits or discredits Socialists, members of the DSA or not, are not the things we read about them or the things they tell pollsters or the tweets they made and then deleted when they were youngsters half a decade ago, to quote Dariel Lisa Avila Chevalier. But do you think we'll get to the point where they'll be evaluated on the actual policies that they put into place? Because I very much wonder about that. I think that we're very far away from having socialist policies enacted on the national level. So how will the Democrats, sorry, the Socialists ever cover themselves in glory or discredit themselves if they're never actually associated with signature policies? And I have a couple in mind that they advocated for that I strongly suspect would have discredited them, such as turning Bill back better into $3.5 trillion spending package. What do you think, Liz?

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Yeah, I mean, I hope that some of those signature policies do come into effect and that they acquit DSA and Democratic Socialists who may not associate with that particular organization very well. Right. And I think one of them that, you know, kind of polls well, that people seem very interested in is Medicare for All. Right. That Sanders ran on and that people seem very galvanized by, and you can see problems with it. Okay. I think people had more than enough opportunities to make criticisms and sort of ill predictions for what it would look like. But I think at the same time you could see some very good outcomes. And I'm not saying it would be perfect or a panacea, but would it allow people who otherwise cannot afford health care to obtain health care? Yeah, I mean I think as written. Absolutely. With Mamdani, this isn't necessarily socialist, but you can see how it relates to his view of the economy. Economy. They just accomplished a two year rent freeze in New York and you can see the people of New York being pleased with that. Right? I mean not the landlords or not

[Ben Koala]

anyone who like wants an apartment who doesn't already have. I mean like really. I mean is this something that, that, that as a democratic socialist, does this sound like a good idea to you? That kind of price control, freezing rent?

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

I mean, you know, one of my best friends works in the Bronx as a public defender in housing court and there are a lot of people, a lot of people getting evicted with their newborns put on the street trying to get spaces in shelter because their rent goes up and they can't pay it. And she spends, you know, every hour of every single day, she's never off, trying to make sure people can stay in their housing. And I think once you see that up close, you kind of see, see the, the rationale in trying to make sure that landlords don't have total free rein to crank up rent as high as they want. Now is it, is it totally ideal? Will it have no ill effects? I don't want to sign on to that. Right. But I think, I just think it

[Ben Koala]

has mostly ill effects like this, this makes it, I mean the major problem is that housing shortage, a rent. Can rent freezes stop the sort of stop. Well really, I mean with, I guess if we're talking about people that already already have places. I mean it, it stops people from, it stops incentivizing people from renting places if you can only get a certain amount of rent. I mean this just seems like if our, if the aim is to increase the housing supply, limiting the amount of rent that a person can charge for, it just seems totally wrong to me.

[Mike Pesca]

I'll make another point which is that the gap between the heart rending circumstance that you just described and what the rent freeze means, which is if you're lucky enough to have a rent stabilized apartment, it's not going to go up the 3 or 4% that was proposed, but 0% even though inflation has hit landlords. And then there are the costs of up maintaining apartments. That's a huge gap. Right. I understand that symbolically and for the not totally small number of people that have rent stabilized apartments, it helps, but the gap between that and I would say the vast, vast, vast majority of single moms being evicted is huge.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Yeah. I mean, it's like I was saying, it's not a policy that is going to 100% solve the issue of housing shortages generally exorbitantly high rent in the city. I mean, it's not going to solve all those problems in one fell swoop. And I mean, the same can be said of Medicare for all. But, you know, can you see the number of New Yorkers? And like you said, it's not extremely tiny number of New Yorkers. There are people in this bracket. Could they look at that policy and say, like, okay, Mamdani did something? And I mean, the contrast, the contrast I'm trying to make is, you know, are we going to get DSA people into positions of power who can do nothing, nothing at all, because they're completely hobbled by the fact that they're this tiny minority constituency in a much larger political playing field where people have, you know, overwhelmingly different commitments and priors. So I think, yeah, they could do something. Maybe not everything, maybe not everything they're able to accomplish will come without ill effects. But I hope that what they can accomplish that does do good things for people, acquits them well, such that other socialist candidates have a chance going forward. And I mean, if you look at what I think was a pretty good policy, Bernie Sanders, AI policy. That's the sort of thing where you could say, all right, if we're able to pull that off, right, and the public has some control, get some benefit of the huge profits that are being generated by AI and the capacity to kind of direct it to some degree, that could be a really good thing for people. And people could.

[Mike Pesca]

That's the moratorium on data center policy.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

No, I think that is a separate thing. The sovereign wealth fund for AI, AI for all thing. My husband wrote that policy for Bernie.

[Ben Koala]

Oh, congratulations.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Why, thank you.

[Ben Koala]

On the.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

On the man or on the policy?

[Ben Koala]

On the. On the man. I mean, it's nice to that. Nice to have that proximity to power or that power. But, you know, the difference between the Nordic stuff, as I understand it, is that it's the, the government gets to share the, the in the dividends of these. I mean, they're investors, but they're not controlling. They're not. I mean, that's quite specifically a part of it that like, we're not making decisions for these companies, but we are sharing in the wealth when they succeed. And I'm very uneasy having anyone. And again, sorry, I don't know the details of this thing. But so, but, but the idea, like, I really don't want the people at, people in Congress having a seat at the table like on the boards of these companies. I, I don't think I do, I think that, I think that, that I, I think that would, like most of these people don't know anything about technology. Like. Yeah, I don't know.

[Mike Pesca]

Then again, Samuel Bankman Fried does. So, you know, sure.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

But you look at some of the nutcases running these companies and it's like, well, I mean, are the American people and we have a representative democracy in theory, are the American people well equipped to make like development decisions about the AI technology? Probably not. But I don't know that, for example, Elon Musk is either.

[Ben Koala]

Yeah, well, I know he's done some pretty incredible things, you know, I mean, he's. I, I don't know. I also, I can't tell how much I'm just sort of trying just, just being a reactionary to your. I don't know how much of this is being put on or it's a question I haven't thought deeply enough about. So I guess I'll stop talking about it.

[Mike Pesca]

I want to end the segment by giving you an anecdote and then ask you a question. So the anecdote is I was on a show with Ro Khanna and I said to him, why do you not see lid you mentioned Medicare for all? Why wasn't the rallying cry or a rallying cry at the win, at the parties where the victory parties for these candidates, why among the things they were chanting, wasn't the phrase Medicare for all ever chanted? In fact, more than ever chanted, or why was it never raised as one of the 10 issues that they were running on. On. And of course Khanna says, well, I support it, I know you support it, but we're talking about the priority of the issues and we're talking about where the momentum is. The momentum was on genocide and the momentum or saying the word genocide and Israel policy. The momentum was on a lot of these more reaching DSA type initiatives and it wasn't on the environmentalism that the DSA and the left used to be known for and it wasn't on Medicaid. Medicare for all. And by the way, if we could snap our fingers, I would like Medicare for All. I Think Obama and I agree with that. And he said it's because of the contrast. Most Democrats, especially the Democrats they were running against, also agree with it. So it doesn't contrast you with your opponent if you say I'm from Medicare for all, and then the other guy says, oh yeah, I'm for Medicare for all too. So the things that will keep them having momentum are, I think the things that differentiate themselves from your standard issued Democrat, the Democrat that they're beating in races, the Democrat that they want to essentially oust as the definition of the party. What do you think are some initiatives that the DSA members or the socialists full and filled with this victory adrenaline, might overreach for policies that you hear them talking about that you think might discredit them? Liz?

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Gosh, that's such a good question. You know, I am pretty disconnected from what the DSA in particular is up to when I think about democratic socialist policies. I want to see. I mean, it's Medicare for All. It's, you know, climate change, moonshot type stuff. Let's.

[Ben Koala]

What's moonshot?

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Well, so one of my problematic takes is that I, I believe there could be a technological response to climate change. Yes, that could be very helpful. Right?

[Ben Koala]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Maybe we can decarbonize the atmosphere. It's not a terrible idea. You know, maybe we can move towards nuclear energy.

[Ben Koala]

Yeah, right.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

So that kind of stuff putting worst debate ever.

[Ben Koala]

Everything she says is right.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Putting money and resources into those kinds of projects. You know, Manhattan Project for decarbonizing the atmosphere seems to make a lot of sense to me, but I know that's not something that all democratic socialists agree with. Some of them believe that, you know, human overpopulation is the issue and we just need to stop using carbon producing energy and not expand energy usage at all. We just need to use less energy, period. And so on and so forth.

[Mike Pesca]

Degrowth. What an idea.

[Ben Koala]

Yes.

[Mike Pesca]

Also known as failing. Okay, so if Liz is no longer a member in good standing of the dsa, which she wasn't at the time because she's a Catholic, I do think she is a member in good standing of the church. So is JD Vance. We will talk about him after a break with not even mad returns.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

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[Ben Koala]

You're great at protecting your data, but lots of places could still expose you to identity theft.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

I thought I was safe.

[Ben Koala]

If that happens, Lifelock gives you a

[Mike Pesca]

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[Ben Koala]

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[Elizabeth Bruenig]

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[Mike Pesca]

We're back with Not Even Mad. We have Ben Koala on, we have Liz BRUNIG ON. And J.D. vance was on the View. Among other shows, he was talking about his new book, Communion Finding My Way Back to Faith. And the timing of the book was such that he had to do the book tour. Now he gets asked on many shows and then they pivot to the Iran deal. Not too many people were too interested in his exact journey of faith. But we're going to be. I will note that on the View he did say the stupidest thing that he said while running for president was his childless cat lady comment. Now remember, this is a guy who not only said the 2020 election was stolen, but also said that cats were being eaten en masse in Springfield. But Liz, have you read the book? Have you read about the book? Do you take anything to heart or have any questions about J.D. vance's stations of the Cross?

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

I did read the book. The childless cat lady comment was funny because that describes nuns, right? Who, you know, traditionally we don't have a problem with in the church. And being childless also describes priests and monks. And as a matter of fact, Jesus seemed to say that if you can be a eunuch for the kingdom of heaven, that's what you should do. So the sort of demand that everybody get together and reproduce seems like an odd innovation on the traditional Christian aspiration for the individual. One of the things that really struck me about Vance's book is he says he's not afraid of hell. He's not worried about the fate of his own soul. Wild. Yeah. I've, you know, if it were an extraordinarily holy person saying that, where you're like, yeah, no, if he doesn't make it into heaven, none of us will, I think even that would be sort of presumptuous. And I think maybe the holier you are, the less presumptuous you become. But from someone who's, you know, inarguably involved in a lot of policies and causes that have death tolls that clearly hurt people that the Pope is upset about, I think taking that tack is a little wild. One of the things that came through in the book is that he likes Christianity for a couple of reasons, one of which is that it's a tool for social control, that it gets people to act right. And the other is that he believes it is this. This sort of lifeblood or intertwined with Western civilization. He likes the West a lot. You know, neither of those things requires Christianity to be true, which is something that is maybe extremely important to most Christians. Not that it's a good tool for social control, because it's not. And not because it is a life preserver for the west, because it's not. It's global, but because it's simply true. It describes the truth. And I think that is maybe the simple and elegant reason to be Christian. But it also doesn't lend itself very well to a presidential campaign memoir.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes. So it's not unusual for a politician, even a politician of genuine faith, to use that faith for political purposes. In fact, you could argue that it would be a dereliction of duty were they not to. But does any of this move you at all? Ben, as a man who doesn't share J.D. vance's faith, or I'm going to say too many of his politics, I'm a

[Ben Koala]

little more sympathetic to the concern about the West. I don't know that I would so quickly write off any association between Christianity and the Enlightenment Christianity and what we call Western values. I certainly kind of grew up not. Not really seeing a connection between those things, but it does seem that. That in nations that have. That are. That have been Christian is when you find where you. Where you found the emergence of those traditions of thought, basic liberalism.

[Mike Pesca]

So sometimes because of the Church, and. Thank you, Judge Zitz. And sometimes.

[Ben Koala]

And sometimes in spite of it. Yeah. You know, so. And certainly, like, if the whole thing is between, you know, if. If he's thinking of this As a contest between the mostly Christian west and a largely Muslim Arab world. I do think that Christianity can galvanize, can unite people. I think, you know, and I am not a Christian, I'm a Jewish atheist. But I also, you know, I also see religion as something that gives. Look, I'm. Well, I'm in a particular program that has a spiritual angle and that is the closest thing I have to a, to a religion. And that group has been very helpful for me in terms of knowing how to live my life and how to treat people. So I, if you want to call that social control, I mean, that's a sort of a scary way of, of talking about it, but I'm for it. I'm sorry, what was the question? I feel I just like rattled off a bunch of.

[Mike Pesca]

No, I just want, I was just trying. I would just ask an open ended question to try to get you to.

[Ben Koala]

I mean, Anonymous. I mean, I like, I kind of like the honesty. Liz, are you scared of going to hell? I mean, now you, I guess you have to say you really are.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Yeah.

[Ben Koala]

Yeah. That's fascinating.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Yeah, I pray for forgiveness every night.

[Ben Koala]

Yeah, but you don't, you don't really. I mean, I just, I would just, I would be so surprised if you went there. Wouldn't you be shocked you in hell?

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

I don't know, like when you look at what you're supposed to do to live as a Christian, these feelings, feats of asceticism, giving everything you have to the poor, fasting, you know, emulating Jesus in all things. I mean, I'm a privileged indoor cat. I have everything given to me and I live in the west and I don't give everything I have to the poor. And I'm concerned with worldly things. And if we're actually judged on those grounds, then yeah, I mean, yeah, I think it's a real risk.

[Mike Pesca]

And then there's the argument that this never ending podcast schedule is a type of hell of its own. So maybe we're already there. John McCormick, writing in the Dispatch, talked about the fact that he doesn't fear hell. And he said that Vance has this specific psychological profile. He feared civilization, death and no fear of damnation. And he just chalks this up to Vance's psychological profile, meaning that it's a pattern of lying and moral shortcuts. If you don't fear for your soul, but fear for civilization, it's just ends justify the means politics. But to me it's just something like politics. I don't know, I think that it's it's fine if you were in a. Let's bash J.D. vance, because he's not really being a good Catholic or by most definitions, and a good person as revealed by the actual things that he does and the choices that he makes. Maybe that's a little bit delicious, but I thought that this was sort of unfair. To be maximally good faith or to take as good faith as Vance's arguments. I don't know that this and the fact that he doesn't fear hell really reflects upon him some sort of. Some sort of status as a bad person. Right. I don't fear hell, and I could still do the right thing.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Yes. So, I mean, I think there are a couple of things at hand here. One of them is, you know, does he have a sort of traditional type of faith, the kind of faith that the Church mandates? And I think the fear of hell is a pretty big part of that. I mean, it's in the act of contrition. You have to say after confession because you fear hell and you desire heaven. Right.

[Mike Pesca]

Forgive me, Father, for I've sinned.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

That's how you begin. Yeah. So I. I think there's that, you know, there's something funny going on where you say, like, I converted to Catholicism. I love Catholicism. I have nothing in common spiritually with how the faith has been traditionally practiced. And also I beef with the Pope.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes, right.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

That's the big one.

[Mike Pesca]

I didn't exactly kill the last one, but was, you know, on the short list of suspects.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Yeah. I mean, he had to be pretty much disciplined by name by Francis, who quoted J.D. vance's actual words in a letter to the American bishops to tell him to shut up.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Which is.

[Mike Pesca]

He and he and Martin Luther have that in common.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Yes. And then, you know, does this make JD Vance like an evil person? I mean, I don't know. Not more so than anyone in politics, I don't think. I mean, they're all kind of, you know, something's got to be going on with you to want to get into politics and have power over people. And I. I'm not sure it's altogether good, but I. You know, one thing that has been kind of annoying here is that a lot of the people who are making fun of JD Vance for being a bad Catholic and being a fake Christian themselves are not Christian and in fact, hold Christianity in some degree of contempt. Right. So if J.D. vance were a super trad Catholic who wholeheartedly believed it, the same critics wouldn't like that either.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. America magazine and the Jesuitical podcast that I like. They were much better and much fairer on this than people taking potshots at J.D. vance. Because it's so easy to see hypocrisy in others and I don't find that it's terribly deep. If you are a conservative American, a Republican, let's say, you'll always criticize the Catholic who doesn't live up to your ideals on abortion. And if you are more liberal Catholic, you always criticize them based on immigration and clothing the poor and the death penalty. So it's just kind of by the numbers.

[Ben Koala]

Does the books go into how he came to choose Catholicism as a faith? And I mean, was there, I mean, did he go to a number of different kinds of Christian churches and see, I mean, was that part of it at all?

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Yeah, he has this history with different forms of Christianity. He comes from a kind of low church Protestantism, like a Pentecostalism.

[Ben Koala]

Right.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

And part of what seems to motivate him. Right. Is that he feels like the people he's surrounded by at Yale Law would look down on his family for being sort of low church Protestants.

[Ben Koala]

Right.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

And he doesn't like that. It can be kind of negatively polarizing when you feel like, you know, people around you look down on you or make fun of you for your beliefs. And so I think, you know, he did a couple of moves here, one of which he didn't like how he was viewed in that milieu. So he chose the most intellectual form of Christianity, which is Roman Catholicism. There's just, there's been a lot of time for people to build up philosophies, arguments about theology. The Catholic Church is responsible for universities. Right. I mean, it's not a religion that looks down on book learning. But then he also switched milieu's. He feels like he's looked down upon in that milieu. So he becomes the co leader of a movement where he's the opposite of looked down upon. He's sort of deified for his religion. And that's part of the genesis of this book. Right. As he wants to really, really advertise the fact that he is religious because he's in this political milieu now where he is being incredibly rewarded for being religious. And I guess one of my questions is, shouldn't you kind of hunker down in a space where Christianity is uncommon and looked down upon and just dig in and be an example as opposed to removing yourself to a milieu where you're rewarded for it? I, I guess that's something that I wonder about, you know, if martyrs are supposed to be the best Christians.

[Ben Koala]

Yeah, well, as he says, martyrs and eunuchs. Well, I mean, he says, look, I. I've always venerated status. And so it all that's clear, that's the.

[Mike Pesca]

And that's why you pick Catholicism. I mean, if we were to do a psychological profile of J.D. vance, and I think that there is merit to it. Every politician, of course, is susceptible to. Every human is. But J.D. vance, to me, his psychology is for forefronted. Just his constantly looking for, say, a father figure. And there is something about J.D. vance who comes from the holler and who was raised by Maw Maw looking for the most grandiose of all the traditions, the one with the most ballast, the one where the cathedrals are the biggest and oldest and longest standing to make himself feel some of those things. Of course you're going to be attracted to. Either honestly or cynically, you're going to be attracted to Catholicism, Roman Catholicism, of all the other Christian religions.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Yeah, that seems right to me. I mean, I myself am an adult convert to Catholicism. I went to grad school to study Christian theology at Cambridge, and in that process converted. I converted not for reasons having to do with the west and not for reasons having to do with the sort of status associated with being Catholic, but Muslim before I was Protestant. I, you know, Catholicism has a textual accompaniment tradition like Judaism does, like the Midrash. And I was like, that's exactly how you practice this religion, with textual accompaniment. So you're not reading this text text all by yourself and coming up with crap all by yourself. Because what can any one person really understand about a book that's been around for thousands upon thousands of years? This has to be the work of thousands upon thousands of years. So I converted to Catholicism.

[Ben Koala]

How'd that go over with your family?

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Yeah, you know, they weren't thrilled about it, but, you know, there's really nothing they can do. I was an adult and I didn't need anything except my baptismal certificate to prove that I was baptized. I got that from my mom. Mom, you know, was pretty cool with it right off the bat, you know, and my dad had his reservations about worshiping Mary and so on and so forth, and, you know, it's all cleared up over time. Yeah, there's. There's nothing they can do about it.

[Ben Koala]

Is.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Is the. Is the answer. Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

I just think it's interesting. You studied all the religions in your Master's of philosophy program, and Catholicism won. Yeah, let that. Yeah. What a rousing. Endorsement of Catholicism. After all these years, it comes back in the person of Liz Bruinick.

[Ben Koala]

You brought Catholicism back.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Thank you.

[Mike Pesca]

So one other thing that we ask to have faith in are our goat grinders. These are the little things that annoy us or get our goats. And I'll start with mine. I've been watching a lot of the World cup, and I noticed that when American broadcasters code shift into soccer mode or football mode, they adopt a lot of the phrases. So I think a couple of them are great. And the flavor of certain sports should be embraced. My favorite is when they talk about the most potent player and goal scorer. They call him the danger man. His Coat d' Ivoire's danger man. Another good one is full time. That's the results after the game is played or 90 minutes of the game is played. I mean, all over American sports, we have half time, so why not full time? It's as if we have the phrase the glass is half full or half empty and then had no concept of a full glass. However, there are some that shouldn't be used. You don't need to say the pitch instead of the field. You definitely don't need to say kits instead of uniforms. If you do, there's a way to do that. Well, I noticed that the Congo's kits, their uniforms, you know, you could just tell the American viewers, bring them along. Or if you are a foreign player, someone who has always said kids, you could say kids and be authentic to yourself. But when especially American announcers and I heard this on npr, and this bothered me a little more than the Alito retirement mistake. A little more talk about scores being nil. Nil. You don't need to do that. You don't need to say zed. Zed or not. Not. You could just say zero. Zero or scoreless. These are all fine. You don't have to have a different way of saying a standard number zero just because in some countries where they don't say zero, they say nil. It is annoying. Does it get my goat? I don't know. It gets my kit in knickers. Elizabeth Bruinig, do you have a Go Grinder for us?

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Yes. I was going to complain about true crime. I write about the death penalty. I've written about the death penalty for many years now. And so I. I kind of don't have to go to Netflix or Hulu for the information about crime the way that some people do, because it's just what I do for my job. But every time a like a new hit true crime piece comes out on Netflix or Hulu, all of my friends come to me and say something like, okay, so in general, I'm against the death penalty. I think you're totally right against death penalty. But I just saw this thing where this person is absolutely evil and irredeemable and there's nothing to do with them except put them to death. And I'm like, well, yeah. Exposure to sort of super editorialized facts about crime that are put to horror movie music and presented strictly as the sort of prosecution's version of events without even gesturing at what the defense may have revealed will produce an emotional reaction that causes you to like, question all your principles. Because it's a horror movie. It's, it's entertainment that's being set up to cause an emotional reaction. That's the catharsis they're aiming at. But I think in terms of like, encouraging people to be super afraid of the world and encouraging people to presume irredeemability and to assume that once they know the actual facts of a crime, they know all the information there is to know about it, I think it, it can be a little bit counterproductive.

[Ben Koala]

Isn't their point though, like, sure, they may have been manipulated by this or that piece of content, but isn't there. But their point remains that there are some people who do, who have a compulsion to do things that are just so awful that it's. That we were all be better off if they were dead. And no, no one should really lose sleep over, you know, Jeffrey Dahmer being dead or whatever. I mean, yeah, sure, maybe he has, you know, he had some excuses, but like, I mean, like, no one, like, should no one be put to death for, for being terrible.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

That's my take. And when people say, well, like, no, no, no, I'm against it generally, but there are cases that that's just called being in favor of it. The idea of capital punishment is that it's reserved for capital crimes, the very worst of the worst. You don't get capital punishment for punching a guy in a bar fight who in a freak accident falls down, hits his head and dies. That's not a capital crime. You don't get it for stealing. That's not a capital crime. You get it for aggravated first degree homicide, which is the worst kind of murder there is.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

So I would just push back on these people and be like, you're just mistaken. You're in favor of the death penalty. It's this, it's this. You're maintaining the idea that you're not. And this is special, but this is. This thing you're pointing to is why it's there. Yeah.

[Ben Koala]

I think, though, there are some people who are, who are against the death penalty because they see cases where people are wrongfully convicted, and then, and then that's, you know, that's. And that, that, to me, is more compelled. But, But. Okay, fair enough.

[Mike Pesca]

Ben Koala, what is your go Grinder?

[Ben Koala]

I think it should be a capital offense to when someone walks into a store that you're. That you're tending to say, welcome in.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

That's so valid. Yeah, yeah. Don't observe me.

[Ben Koala]

No, no, no. It's not the. Observe it. No, no. I like being welcomed. Please. That's so antisocial. What a. Don't observe me. My God. Oh, okay.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

We eat brune egg now I'm in this situation and, like, feel like maybe I have to buy something because you're being hospitable.

[Ben Koala]

Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I don't mind that. I like being welcomed. I don't want to be welcomed in, because where else, you know? Just say welcome. Welcome. It's everywhere now. Every time you walk into a store, no one says welcome. Anyway, welcome in. This has cropped up in the past, like, two years or something. It's a new phenomenon.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

You could.

[Ben Koala]

Now that I mention it, you will see it everywhere. And I hope you say something next time it happens. I haven't yet, but I hope you do.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Yeah, I'll just flee. Or you could interpret it as well, comma, come in. You know what I'm saying?

[Ben Koala]

I, I. Yeah, that seems like a stretch to me.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

It's much better to not be observed at all. Like, you're walking into Popeyes and they wish you weren't there. Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Koala]

Like outward. I prefer outward hostility to lousy writing.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Yeah, yeah. At least open hostility is honest.

[Ben Koala]

Right, Right.

[Mike Pesca]

And I want to thank you, Ben.

[Ben Koala]

Thank you, Mike. This was great.

[Mike Pesca]

And, Elizabeth, thanks for having me on. And I want to thank you, the audience. This was the last ever airing of a Not even Mad. So I will say for the last time, I'm not saying we're right. We're not saying you're right. We are saying we're not even mad. That's it for today's show. The Gist is produced by Cory Wara. Jeff Craig does How To. Ben Astaire is our booking coordinator. Kathleen Sykes does the Gist list. And Michelle Pesca is extraordinary in her role as CEO. Improved. Thanks for listening.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

You're more than just one thing your vehicle should be 2. More connectivity when you're the boss. Hey, Google, when's my next meeting? And more space when you're the mom. Everyone in the all new Mazda cx. Five more to move every side of you. Google is a trademark of Google llc. Sequences shortened and simulated.

[Mike Pesca]

We're gonna need a bigger cake with room for 250 candles. I'm Josh Spiegel, host of the podcast Lunatic in the Newsro. Join me and my guest, BJ Shea, as we celebrate America's big birthday. What are the best and worst American inventions? How would the Founding Fathers feel about today's America? What's the most American thing?

[Ben Koala]

And what will America look like at 500?

[Mike Pesca]

Join our celebration this week on Lunatic in the Newsroom.