The Gist — "Not Even Mad: John Ganz & Nick Gillespie"
Date: April 9, 2026
Host: Mike Pesca
Guests: John Ganz (FDR Democrat, author, Unpopular Front Substack), Nick Gillespie (Libertarian, Reason magazine)
Main Theme:
A deep dive into the fallout from the recent U.S.-Iran conflict, the effectiveness of Trump’s foreign policy, critiques of libertarianism and its paradoxes, and broader reflections on political power, all done in a spirit of spirited disagreement without anger ("not even mad").
Overview
On this episode, Mike Pesca brings together John Ganz and Nick Gillespie—two commentators with starkly different ideological backgrounds but a shared willingness to interrogate their own sides—for a conversation that tackles American foreign policy blunders, media narratives, the pitfalls of Trump-era governance, libertarian critiques (“We told you so!”), and the complexities of public and private power in the U.S. All with as much warmth and humor as the subject matter permits.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The U.S.-Iran Conflict: What (if Anything) Was Gained?
Timestamps: [08:35]–[15:11]
- Pesca sets the stage: Trump threatened and then partially delivered on war crimes-level rhetoric and action against Iran, only for the situation to de-escalate into a ceasefire that seems advantageous to Iran.
- John Ganz argues that Trump’s “bluster” yielded little, and that the U.S. gained nothing, making the episode “a strategic victory for Iran.” He likens the result to Nixon’s bombings in Vietnam: “we bombed them into accepting our concessions,” but didn’t change the negotiating outcome.
"I think it's extremely... they're going to claim that these extraordinary threats are what got us these concessions, but they're not really concessions." —John Ganz [10:39]
- Nick Gillespie agrees, underscoring that the intervention only “secured the existing regime in Iran,” making a liberal Iran less likely, further isolating the U.S. internationally, and highlighting the lack of coherent foreign policy debate in American politics.
"America is like the worst fucking ally you can ask for, you know, because... the minute you get into trouble, we'll throw you over the side." —Nick Gillespie [13:10]
Notable Quotes:
- “...the long-term effects of the... instability and the amateurishness of what [Trump] accomplishes.” —John Ganz [12:16]
- “If you want to pull something useful out of this, in terms of domestic politics, [it shows] the absolute zero, less than zero understanding of anything serious about Donald Trump and all of his policies.” —Nick Gillespie [14:14]
2. The NYT Swan & Haberman Report: Sourcing and Spin
Timestamps: [16:48]–[24:00]
- Pesca guides analysis of a New York Times report on Trump’s war decisions, focusing on evident “spinning” by sources—especially J.D. Vance—and whether the piece lets players off the hook.
- Ganz suspicious of NYT framing, notes exculpatory efforts for J.D. Vance (“so cards up that Vance and his team were major sources for this story”), and points out historical parallels—advisors acting as if the president were fit despite private doubts about Trump's basic understanding.
“They are reflecting on that in private… saying, he's basically kind of unable to understand the advice we're giving him.” —John Ganz [23:13]
- Gillespie adds the story echoes NYT’s role pre-Iraq War and questions the incentives: “Are [the reporters] useful idiots, or going along [to] get access?”
- Pesca brings literary criticism to the story's “third person omniscience,” noting it only arises with deep insider sourcing.
3. Presidential Temperament, Advisors, and Historical Continuity
Timestamps: [24:00]–[35:52]
- Discussion turns to the capabilities of Trump and his advisors—how little direct, forceful advice was given, and the disturbing degree of passivity or sycophancy in the current administration compared to the first term.
- Gillespie laments decline in trust and confidence in government; compares the growing trend of risk-averse, unprincipled bureaucratic culture across recent administrations.
- Pesca and Ganz dissect Trump’s inability to grasp complexity or second/third order effects, with vivid anecdotes from the NYT piece (“Rubio jumps in and says, meaning it’s bullshit...and [Trump] still doesn’t get it.” [27:34])
- Reflections on the “third way” of Trump’s foreign policy, where dropping bombs is seen as bold but without ground invasion—a path Ganz says is “not new,” referencing Taft and LeMay as precedents for air power over diplomacy.
Notable Quotes:
- “We're coming in for a second stress test… Cars that are 50 years old don't hold up under repeated engine tests.” —Nick Gillespie [36:54]
- “We dodged a bullet that originated in Trump’s own gun.” —Mike Pesca [35:52]
4. Libertarianism: ‘We Told You So’ or “Don’t Blame Me, I Voted for…”
Timestamps: [38:01]–[46:06]
- Mike raises a NYT op-ed by Reason editor Katherine Mangu-Ward claiming “Libertarians, we told you so.”
- Gillespie reflects: admits his own tentative support for Trump (over Harris) in 2024, which he now regrets (“Trump far exceeds however bad I thought he was going to be the second time around” [40:40]), but defends core libertarian critiques as proven right on centralizing federal power, tariffs, tech-industry collusion, and immigration.
- Ganz pushes back: finds the libertarian movement “galling” for acting surprised, arguing many promoted Trump despite his clear anti-libertarian record. He draws a distinction between “beltway” libertarians with sincere anti-authoritarian principles and the populist right’s more reactionary “dark libertarians”—including tech figures like Thiel or Silicon Valley pseudo-libertarians—who have become enablers of authoritarianism.
Notable Quotes:
- “I was, I've been perhaps too critical in the past of libertarians and did not expect for them to be as principled as they were. And I admire them.” —John Ganz [43:26]
- “There's definitely a strain in the libertarian movement that lends itself bizarrely to a kind of embrace of post liberal critiques both of capitalism and of politics and of freedom.” —Nick Gillespie [46:06]
5. The Limits and Double-Edges of Libertarian Critique
Timestamps: [46:06]–[67:40]
- Ganz and Gillespie debate internal contradictions in libertarianism: its “blind spot” for private (corporate) tyranny vs. government tyranny. Ganz argues the tech-right and “real-world” libertarians enable Trumpian authoritarianism, whereas establishment libertarians are less culpable but perhaps naive.
- Discussion branches into labor unions, public vs. private power, and the challenge of “big government and big business” being mutually dependent (“coterminous”).
- Pesca and Ganz note that for all the libertarian defense, most famous figures do not favor labor organizing and government regulation that are historically needed to restrain private abuse.
Notable Quotes:
- “Businesses can have the same overwhelming power over the lives of individuals as governments can and in fact often have more tangible results...most people don't fear the federal government, they fear their boss.” —John Ganz [57:37]
- “You can quit your job, you can quit your job. It's much harder to quit a particular country.” —Nick Gillespie [58:27]
- “To the extent that we talk in larger terms...as directional rather than as sets of doctrine you either buy in 100% or you reject 100%, we would have more productive conversations.” —Nick Gillespie [69:01]
6. Roundtable Wrap-Up: ‘Goat Grinders’ — Little Things That Annoy
Timestamps: [73:16]–[79:39]
Each guest (and the host) shares their current pet annoyances (in tech and culture):
-
Nick Gillespie: Annoyed by the needless incompatibility and friction caused by Apple, Google, and Amazon ecosystems:
“At every moment, they do something to make the most mundane and what should be a frictionless task, just a pain in the ass...” [74:59]
-
Mike Pesca: Frustrated by the impossible-to-parse relevance of Twitch streamers and online influencers:
“There are all these... influencers, these Twitch streamers...but I never know if this is one of those situations where some editor somewhere elevate someone who doesn't deserve it because this guy is good at getting attention...” [74:59]
-
John Ganz: Bemoans the constant, often regressively disruptive software updates, with special mention to Evernote:
“I had a note taking software...It worked perfectly...now it's unusable. I just think the constant need to upgrade things just means that things that work extremely well get cast by the wayside...” [77:16], [78:36]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- Pesca, on the episode’s aim: “We promise to uphold our reputation for refutation while at the same time vowing to be not even mad.” [07:59]
- Gillespie, on the illusion of ‘checks and balances’: “[Trump] was stress testing all of the institutions of America...now, you know, we’re coming in for a second stress test…” [36:50]
- Ganz, bluntly summing up Trump’s decision-making: “He’s an extraordinarily stupid man and he has no business in office...” [34:43]
- Pesca, on the outcome of the Iran standoff: "We dodged a bullet that originated in Trump’s own gun." [35:52]
Structure and Flow
- Opening: (skip ad spots) Pesca sets the scene: rapid escalation in Iran, U.S. response, international implications.
- Roundtable Discussion: Three-way debate, with each speaker given room both for monologue and reasoned pushback.
- Deep Dives: On foreign policy, the media machinery, and nuanced (self-)critique of political identities and institutions.
- Closing Segment: Each participant vents a cultural or tech frustration ("Goat Grinders"), lightening the mood and reinforcing the show's premise of debate without rage.
Recommended Listening Segments
- How the U.S. handed Iran leverage over the Strait of Hormuz: [09:57]–[12:49]
- NYT report dissection and media skepticism: [16:48]–[24:00]
- Liberty vs. power: can libertarianism reckon with private tyranny? [56:38]–[62:47]
- ‘Goat grinders’ – the segment on tech annoyances and internet malaise: [73:16]–[79:39]
Tone & Language
Conversational but intellectually rich; irreverent yet fair; skeptical of all party lines; wry humor interspersed with policy analysis. The speakers spar but never descend into hostility—"not even mad" is upheld throughout.
Conclusion
The Gist’s "Not Even Mad" edition uses the chaos and complexity of Trump’s latest international debacle as a launching pad for a freeranging but focused discussion about power, ideology, and public life in America. Through lively debate and clear-eyed critique, Pesca, Ganz, and Gillespie find the overlap between sharp argument, mutual respect, and—just occasionally—shared comic exasperation.