Aaron Tracy and Roald Dahl's Dangerous Double Life

Summary

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The Gist – "Aaron Tracy and Roald Dahl's Dangerous Double Life"

Host: Mike Pesca
Guest: Aaron Tracy
Date: March 11, 2026
Podcast: The Gist (Peach Fish Productions)

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Episode Theme & Overview

This episode delves into the shadowy, multifaceted life of Roald Dahl—the celebrated children's author who was also a WWII spy, medical inventor, notorious philanderer, and outspoken, controversial figure. Mike Pesca interviews Aaron Tracy, creator of the hit podcast "The Secret World of Roald Dahl." Together, they unpack Dahl’s complex biography, the dark tones and moral ambiguities of his work, and his troubling legacy, especially his antisemitism and questions around his attitudes toward race and representation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Complexity of Roald Dahl (06:55, 11:25)

• Dahl as More Than Just an Author: The episode opens (06:55) with Pesca noting Dahl’s life as not just a writer, but a spy, inventor, and philanderer. Tracy’s podcast explores all aspects of this multifaceted personality.
• Uncovering Hidden Histories: Tracy’s approach is to move beyond the well-known children’s books to reveal an "incredibly interesting figure who everybody knows but nobody really knows about." (11:39, Mike Pesca)
• Quote:

  "Dahl didn't start writing his children's books... until he was 45 years old. So he lived a whole life... before he was 45 and then even after."
  – Aaron Tracy (12:27)

2. The Making of "The Secret World of Roald Dahl" (13:00)

• Tracy describes producing mostly scripted fiction audio dramas, but this is his first major nonfiction narrative podcast.
• Imagine Entertainment (Ron Howard & Brian Grazer) is backing the series because of its compelling, true mid-century story. (15:13)
• Narrative style: The first 6 episodes are single-narrator storytelling; later, prominent guests join to discuss more controversial topics. (13:27)

3. The Many Faces of Dahl’s Influence (16:56)

• Cultural Resurgence: There has been a steady resurgence in Dahl’s popularity, particularly with new screen and stage adaptations (e.g., multiple Wonka films, Netflix/Wes Anderson shorts, Matilda musical, upcoming Broadway play "Giant"). (16:56)
• Adapting with the Times: The various screen adaptations of "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" say something about each era:
  • "The Wonka is... a Rorschach test for whatever era is adapting him.”
    – Mike Pesca (16:56)

4. Dahl’s War Record & Espionage (20:34)

• Dahl, along with other high-flyers like Ian Fleming (creator of Bond), was part of a British covert unit in the US during WWII, working to sway American opinion.
• He used both charm and seduction as spy tools, famously targeting Clare Boothe Luce to influence American media coverage. (22:38)
• Quote:

  “It was just a bunch of 26 year olds hanging out in New York and DC, coming up with weird ideas, outside the box ideas. And a lot of them were effective."
  – Aaron Tracy (22:38)

5. Inventor and Family Trauma (24:41)

• After his son Theo’s injury, Dahl collaborated with a neurosurgeon and a toymaker to invent a medical valve used to treat hydrocephalus in thousands of children.
• Dahl’s approach: leveraged connections and perseverance, insisted the device not be profit-generating so it could be widely shared. (24:41)
• Notable Comparison: Paul Winchell (voice of Tigger) and Hedy Lamarr are cited as rare creative figures also credited with useful inventions.

6. Darkness and Innovation in Children’s Literature (29:10)

• Dahl’s children’s books broke with past sentimental traditions, introducing darkness, risk, and adult themes.
• Initial resistance: Dahl only began writing for children out of financial necessity and did so reluctantly.
• Early failure: His first children’s book sold poorly in the U.S., but was a massive hit in the U.K. (27:25–29:04)
• Quote:

  "Children like the darkness, they don't want sugary, saccharine stories. They want to be treated a little bit like adults...”
  – Aaron Tracy (29:10)

7. Racial Representation in Dahl’s Work (31:44)

• In early drafts, Charlie Bucket and family were Black. Publishers demanded otherwise. Tracy wonders what this could have meant but admits there’s no evidence Dahl intentionally sought to make a racial statement.
• Friendship with African children while in Africa may have influenced this vision. (32:39)

8. Grappling with Dahl’s Antisemitism (33:12–37:52)

• Tracy is open about Dahl’s clear antisemitic statements late in life, including notorious interviews ("Even a stinker like Hitler didn't just pick on them for no reason" – quoting Dahl, 35:30) and refusal to back down.
• Dahl’s role in WWII did involve supporting European Jews, but he later conflated Israel’s government with Jews as a whole, a classic antisemitic trope.
• No strong evidence that Dahl’s antisemitic attitudes appear directly in his children’s fiction, but Tracy (and many others) struggles with the moral dilemma of enjoying the works of problematic creators.
• Quote:

  "If I can't see it in the text, do I not read the books myself to them? Is that hypocritical?”
  – Aaron Tracy (36:49)

9. Debating Historical Context and Cancel Culture (38:26–44:37)

• Discussion of whether Dahl would have faced more severe backlash today for his views and statements, and whether his present-day defenders would find new ways to justify anti-Zionist positions under current cultural norms.
• The 2020s context: The Dahl estate did apologize (coincidentally when licensing rights to Netflix).
• Conversation around modifying Dahl’s work posthumously—publishers removing “fat,” “ugly,” and even innocuous words like “black and white.”
  • Tracy strongly opposes such censorship, likening the changes to a “Saturday Night Live sketch.” (41:28)

10. The Value of Darkness and Cruelty in Dahl’s Stories (43:22)

• Both agree that the darkness, even the cruelty, in Dahl’s books is part of their honesty and enduring appeal.
• Tracy: “I am completely anti censorship... we are always going to try to fiddle with things... but we should have the person who made it, the 25 year old or 26 year old... make those decisions.” (43:22–44:37)
• Nuanced view: Some exceptions, like Agatha Christie’s work with offensive original titles, may warrant posthumous edits.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Dahl’s Allure:
  "What a subject. Aaron, welcome to The Gist." – Mike Pesca (11:25)
• On the Difficulty of Defining Roald Dahl:
  "There is not one synecdoche figure in all his oeuvre that is Dahl... but if there were, maybe it's the BFG." – Aaron Tracy (19:13)
• The Morality of the Creator vs. the Work:
  "Do I stop my kids from reading Roald Dahl because of this?" – Aaron Tracy (36:49)
• On Posthumous Editing:
  "They went so far that it became like a Saturday Night Live sketch." – Aaron Tracy (41:28)
• On Dahl’s Influence and Cultural Adaptation:
  "The Wonka is... a Rorschach test for whatever era is adapting him." – Mike Pesca (16:56)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Roald Dahl’s Double Life revealed – 06:55–13:00
• Genesis and goals of “Secret World of Roald Dahl” podcast – 13:00–16:06
• Dahl’s adaptability and cultural resurgence – 16:56–18:07
• Dahl’s espionage and dashing exploits – 20:34–23:58
• Life tragedy inspiring medical invention – 24:41–26:15
• Darkness and innovation in children’s literature – 27:25–29:45
• Controversy: Original race of Charlie Bucket – 31:44–33:12
• Antisemitism explored and contextualized – 33:12–37:52
• Debating ‘cancellation’ and posthumous condemnation – 38:26–39:53
• Editing Dahl’s books for modern audiences (censorship debate) – 41:28–44:37

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Tone & Style

• The tone is lively, witty, and inquisitive, with both guests alternating between admiration, moral scrutiny, and cultural analysis—never shying away from controversy.
• Both host and guest are candid, nuanced, and blend literary, historical, and contemporary perspectives.

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For Newcomers

This episode serves as both a primer on the dark brilliance and contradictions of Roald Dahl, and a thoughtful meditation on how—and if—we separate art from artist. The conversation will leave you both better informed about Dahl’s true legacy and more thoughtful about the complexities of literary hero-worship and posthumous accountability.

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Listen to the full conversation for deep dives into the spy games, creative torments, social controversies, and enduring allure of one of the 20th century’s great and problematic storytellers.

Transcript

[Mike Pesca]

Whether you're solving murders during breakfast, cracking

[Aaron Tracy]

cold cases on your commute, or playing amateur detective at bedtime, Amazon Music's got millions of podcast episodes waiting. Just download the Amazon Music app and start listening to your favorite True Crime Podcasts ad free included with prime the Gist is brought to you by Progressive Insurance Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, Monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. It's Wednesday, March 11, 2026. From Peach Fish Productions, it's the Gist. I'm Mike Pesca. I was reading about support for the war and how it went from pretty low to much, much higher. Oh no, not this war. Not the war in Iran that is still unpopular. As aptly described in a New York Times unlike past US conflicts, Iran attack is opposed by most Americans. But they're down. The list of past US conflicts was Grenada, which in 1983 was said to enjoy only 53% public approval. I don't remember it being that close to being unpopular, but I did some more research and it turns out other polls at the time had it below 50% in terms of popularity. The US intervention in removing the increasingly pre pro Cuban government of the small Caribbean nation. But then, two days after the US invaded, Ronald Reagan went on TV and actually laid out a rationale to the American people.

[Mike Pesca]

The world has changed. Today our national security can be threatened in faraway places.

[Aaron Tracy]

It's up to all of us to

[Mike Pesca]

be aware of the strategic importance of such places and to be able to identify them. Sam Rayburn once said that freedom is

[Aaron Tracy]

not something a nation can work for once and win forever.

[Mike Pesca]

He said it's like an insurance policy. Its premiums must be kept up to date.

[Aaron Tracy]

In order to keep it, we have

[Mike Pesca]

to keep working for it and sacrificing for it just as long as we live. If we do not, our children may

[Aaron Tracy]

not know the pleasure of working to keep it. So two things there. One, he talked about sacrifice for a greater ideal, sacrificing for freedom. And he also talked about in the beginning of the clip, awareness, being aware of the strategic threat. And it worked. According to the Washington Post, a few days later, Americans showed a surprising degree of knowledge about Grenada, with 61% being able to locate it in the Caribbean. That's their proxy for knowledge. But they did say they did point out that in 1979 only 38% could identify the countries involved in strategic weapons talks. That would be the US and Russia. And in June, only 25% knew which side the US backed in El Salvador. So, yeah, it seemed like more people knew about Grenada than had known about it before. And also after that Reagan speech, polls show that roughly 63 to 71% of the public, depending on which poll you looked at, supported, approved of the invasion. Now, the story of Grenada, an island of at the time 90,000 people, is very different from the story of Iran, a country of 90 million people. And replacing the government of Grenada was simple. And regional leaders in the Caribbean were begging the US to intervene. In fact, the President of Dominica appeared alongside Ronald Reagan in briefings. It was very powerful, this black woman saying, we need the United States to come in. It was hard not to get behind this fairly simple and quite successful operation. So that's all different from Iran. But the difference that I'm highlighting is someone, someone at the top, someone good at talking, sought to put together a rationale, a rational rationale. Also, we should note that when the Grenada invasion happened literally two days after the bombing in Beirut, Beirut is bombed, the barracks, 241American personnel killed on a Sunday, on a Tuesday, pre dawn raid, US Invades Grenada on a Thursday. That speech, a clip of which I just played. So maybe Americans were feeling vulnerable for a day or two. But I do have to say, take all that into account, the psychology involved, Americans never really turned around to that degree, not even close on Beirut. Americans were very skeptical. Why are we in Beirut? Reagan himself was skeptical about that. That act of terrorism, the killing of those Marines in Beirut, conducted of course by Iran, proxies of Iran, was always an argument to stay out of the Middle East. And that is an argument that went far beyond the words of even the President. They called the great communicator on the show today. Well, it's Roald Dahl day on the gist. But on the other show on how to with Mike Pesca, I've got on my old friends Mike Danforth and Ian Chillag. They themselves host a How to show. A much more successful how to show I should say. And it is the episode everyone always wanted to hear. How to, how to they told me what they try to do is elicit interesting facts. Every episode from which I glean the idea that an interesting fact they're saying is a fact that should be inherently helpful. So an interesting fact you're saying should be inherently helpful.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, certainly when we approach a question and answering a question, we are at least trying to figure out one person's solution to that situation, even if it's not a universal it may not apply to you, but at least in this case, Kevin Bacon was able to overcome motion sickness by staring at the back of Tom Hanks's head. I stared a hole in the back of his head.

[Aaron Tracy]

I just remember. I remember the back of his head so well. Now what if Tom Hanks isn't available on all commercial trains or airliners? Well, that. That is the problem.

[Mike Pesca]

We can't help you.

[Aaron Tracy]

Yeah, so listen to how to my how to how to with Mike Pesco wherever you I'm not going to do the wherever you get your podcast. Listen to it right here where you get this podcast. Don't make it complicated. And now here is my interview with with Aaron Tracy, who has an excellent podcast out many episodes about a multifaceted, I should say a multifaceted fascinating guy, Roald Dahl. It is called the Secret World A Roald Dahl.

[Mike Pesca]

Come with me and you'll be in a world of pure imagination. Take a look and you'll see into your imagination.

[Aaron Tracy]

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[Mike Pesca]

I'm so happy to be here. Thanks.

[Aaron Tracy]

You understand breaking out a story and you understand the elements of drama and biography is the key. Just do a Multi part podcast series on the most interesting person ever to live. Is that part of the key?

[Mike Pesca]

That's definitely a huge part of the key, yeah. Finding the subject. I do wonder. I mean, I hope to get a season two and a season three after that. And so the question will be, is it my storytelling abilities? Probably not. Or is it just that Dahl is an incredibly interesting figure who everybody knows but nobody really knows about that makes this work?

[Aaron Tracy]

Yeah. And it starts off with you soliciting opinions of friends and loved ones. Hey, did you know this about Dahl? Did you know that about Dahl? And I don't want to give anything away, but you have to know, one has to know that he was a spy, that he was, like I said, an inventor. And I. I suppose this wasn't a setup. Oh, that he was an anti SEM. But as much as people know about Dahl, they usually do stop at the impressive body of work and don't know about the biography. And that helped you, didn't it?

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, big time. Dahl didn't start writing his children's books, which is kind of all we. We know him for today, until he was 45 years old. So he lived a whole life. He lived many lives before he was 45 and then even after. So I think the nice thing is for people who come to this only knowing Charlie and the Chocolate Factory or James and the Giant Peach or Matilda are going to learn so many fascinating, not only about Dahl, but also about his century, about the war, about espionage, about a million different arenas that he went into.

[Aaron Tracy]

And so let me ask you a little bit about yourself. Like I said, you're a screenwriter and you also teach writing at Yale. And you also, just judging by the credits and what I'm listening to, have a production company that does audio storytelling. Or is this your. You tell me, is this your first foray into biography? And. And Ron Howard and BR Grazer are backing it. Tell me all about the structure and setup for this story.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, so I've got a company called Parallax, and we make a ton of audio shows. So most of what I make are scripted fiction, audio dramas, which are sort of like old fashioned radio plays. They're great. They occupy this very small little niche, this tiny little corner of the podcast world or of the entertainment world. They're mostly done for Audible and iHeart, but they're great. If you like scripted fiction, they're just like TV shows, but without the visuals and they have big stars in them and really high production value. And unlike TV and movies, you can kind of Tell whatever story you want. When I go pitch a TV show, I have to have some kind of IP attached, you know, a board game or a book or a, you know, a cereal box. But with podcasts, you can just go pitch an idea you came up with in the shower and go get a big star and make it, which is awesome. This show, the Secret World of Roald Dahl, is the first nonfiction one that I've done other than a chat show that I hosted at Yale. And I've really loved it. This is sort of more in the mainstream of podcasting, I guess you would say. This is just like a straightforward narrative of a guy's life. Me at a microphone. In the second half of the season, I do bring on some guests to talk to me about Dahl and answer some of my questions, but for the first six episodes, it's really just me telling you a story. And yeah, I was, I was incredibly thrilled to get Ron Howard's company, Imagine, on board because they're so known for telling, for telling great true stories. Specifically, I was thinking of Frost Nixon, their great movie with this about, you know, another very complicated mid century man. But they also made 8 mile and they made Cinderella man and just so many great true stories.

[Aaron Tracy]

Right. So is Grazer or Howard, are they interested in this because it's a story about a story maker and a lot of Ron Howard's films. Well, I don't know, actually, I don't know if this true. I think he does a lot of films that are geared towards families. But maybe that's even besides the point is that one of the reasons they were so interested in Doll.

[Mike Pesca]

I don't know. I mean, you'd have to ask them. I don't want to speak for them,

[Aaron Tracy]

but I do have them on speed dial.

[Mike Pesca]

Can you give me. I have Ron Howard in my. Yeah, no, I mean, I think that Imagine, it's just, it's a really smart production company and so they are interested in elevated material. They're interested in smart true stories, they're interested in American stories. I mean, if you look at their track record, they've made some of the best true stories about, you know, middle of the 20th century Real life Americans and. Yeah, and I felt like this fit right into their wheelhouse.

[Aaron Tracy]

Right? Yeah, that is true. That is, you know, Cinderella Man, a little before the middle of the 20th century and a lot of the, A lot of space age space race stories a little bit.

[Mike Pesca]

Right.

[Aaron Tracy]

Apollo 11 after. Yeah, yeah. So the reason I ask is that there is. Is it me or is there A doll resurgence. I know Netflix bought the intellectual property and there always seems to be some version of. Or some new version of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory or another one of his works or Matilda on Broadway, but maybe he's. Maybe I'm having recency bias. And at any point after his huge instant success of James and the Giant and Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, we would have seen if not reach surgeons than just a surgeons of Roald Dahl at every point in history.

[Mike Pesca]

I think you're totally right. There's three main versions, film versions of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, and I think each very much says something about the era that it was made in. The 1971 film starring Gene Wilder is warm and theatrical and slightly sinister, but it's ultimately Safe. It's like 70s entertainment. The 2005 version by Tim Burton is gothic and psychologically strange and really interested in trauma. And then the 2023 version with Timothee Chalamet is this like tick tock era IP play, just optimistic and musical and designed for global markets. So it really does feel like the. The Wonka is. It's kind of a Rorschach test for whatever era is adapting him. And then, yeah, Netflix made a huge, huge, huge deal with the doll estate. And so that's why we've had, I think it's five Wes Anderson adaptations of doll movies recently. And then the. The stage musical of Matilda was on Broadway forever and is going around the world. And there's about to be a new Broadway play called Giant where John Lithgow plays Roald Dahl and really gets into his anti Semitism. Yeah, I think Dahl is, He's. He's everywhere right now. It's sort of good timing.

[Aaron Tracy]

Yeah. And we're jumping around a little bit. But you haven't gotten to this in the episodes I've heard, which are the first six. Are you of the opinion that the Tim Burton Wonka was a stand in, in many ways for Michael Jackson?

[Mike Pesca]

You know, I did read a little bit about that. I think Johnny Depp says that he was actually doing it as a. He was doing an imitation of a game show host from when he was younger who had a voice similar to Michael Jackson. But it's got that. It's got that very creepy, very surreal vibe to it.

[Aaron Tracy]

So early on you established that Dahl was in a cadre of spies. And among the other spies were Ogilvy, who went on to found Ogilvy and Mather, the advertising giant, and Ian Fleming, who wrote James Bond. I did notice that when you position them when you describe them as all sitting together and having a drink, you said it was Don. Imagine Don, James Draper and James Bond and Roald Dahl altogether. Why Doll and not one of his characters? I can think of a couple of reasons, but I want to ask you.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, I just. It feels. I guess it would have felt funny to say Charlie Bucket, you know.

[Aaron Tracy]

Right. But that's because Charlie Bucket isn't the stand in for Doll. That's what I was thinking, that there is not one synecdoche figure in all his oeuvre that is Doll, is there? But if there were, maybe it's the bfg. But you tell me.

[Mike Pesca]

No, I mean the bfg. I mean, you're right. Like lot of people just think of him as the bfg. I don't think he thought of himself that way. I think people think of him that way because in real life Dahl was this sort of mythical figure. He was 6 foot 6, just a giant man. He had that name that was so unusual to American ears. And his imagination was just so giant he kind of felt otherworldly. And also, I don't know, I mean, getting going back to the anti Semitism. Like there's a corollary there too. The bfg. The whole idea is that he seeps into your dreams, you know, while you're sleeping, into little kids dreams. And that's just such a scary idea because I have trouble pointing to any part of the text in any of Dahl's books that are actually anti Semitic or contain anti Semitic tropes. But since we know that he was an anti Semite, I worry about like how he seeps into our children's dreams a little bit. But I do think that that's us putting him, you know, into the role of the bfg. I don't think he saw himself that way at all.

[Aaron Tracy]

Yeah, so a couple of points to make and I definitely want to get to the anti Semitism in a moment. The BFG is benign and loping is a word I'd use. And I have seen footage of Doll later in life at his cottage. And he seems very benign, but certainly not maybe charismatic in his own way, but certainly not sexy. But this is a very important point of doll in the 20s and 30s when we say ladies man, Ian Fleming didn't come close. Maybe even James Bond didn't come close.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. I have the same picture of Dahl of, you know, in his old age when he was introducing his TV show Tales of the Unexpected, when he was just sort of an old man sitting in a chair with a cardigan on, you know, very much Masterpiece Theater style. But when he was in his 20s, when he was a spy with the Irregulars, he was dashing, he was handsome, he was tall, he was a great storyteller, he was charming, he was James Bond. And he would go on to get hired to write the fifth James Bond movie based on his or informed by his experiences in the war. But yeah, the young doll was, was absolutely dashing.

[Aaron Tracy]

And when I think of him in that cottage, I think of Gandalf visiting the, the hobbits, just a little too big and a little out of place, but also wizened and wise. When he was a spy, his mission was to convince America to join the war because before, Roosevelt was on the side. And you have this amazing anecdote about him as a very young man going up to Hyde park and spending a whole weekend, fourth of July weekend with Eleanor and Franklin Roosevelt. And I think that that was very good in terms of, or very effective in terms of intelligence gathering and maybe even pushing FDR towards a more pro British position. And you detail all the things that he did. His operations seem to have been very successful. Clara Loose Booth was invol. But give me an assessment if his, or maybe it's open. If his superiors had to assess his work as a spy, what grade would they have given him?

[Mike Pesca]

I think super successful. Yeah. So much of it was kept close to the vest. We can't point to too many things that we know for sure Dahl is responsible for. But as you're saying, like his role along with the rest of the Irregulars, was to get America into the war, to get them off the sidelines in any way they could. So it was just a bunch of 26 year olds hanging out in New York and DC, coming up with weird ideas, outside the box ideas. And a lot of them were effective. One of my favorites is they came up with the idea to hire a psychic, Louis de Waal, and they sent him around the country on tour to go talk to audiences and say that he read it in the stars, that the Third Reich was going to fall. And the idea was that that would make people, you know, Americans more likely to feel okay about entering the war because it's already faded, that we're going to win. So they're coming up with ideas like that. And then, yes, a lot of seductions. You mentioned Clare Boothe Luce. Dahl seduced her. She was 13 years older than him. She was incredibly influential in her own right. She was a congresswoman. She was a Broadway playwright, and she was also married to the most powerful man in media, Henry Luce. And so the idea was to try to get her to whisper things to Henry, you know, about America getting into the war, to make coverage in his magazines a little bit more pro British.

[Aaron Tracy]

Yeah. And it worked. And this was a time of the monoculture, and when life starts opining for it, much of the country comes along. Plus, Claire Luth's booth is a congressperson. It's all unbelievably fascinating. And then we get to his marriage, his marriage to one of the most beautiful women in the world and the fate that befalls his children. And we could pull out, as you do, and I don't want to give too much of it away, but we could pull out all of the horrors that echo the horrors that visited Dahl in his life, though he and his family when he was an adult and his family when he was a child, dealt with it differently. But I want to talk about inventing a medical apparatus, because I had no idea about that until you told me about that.

[Mike Pesca]

Isn't that amazing? It's so. It's like one of the most romantic things I found in my research. Yeah. I mean, it starts with a horrible tragedy. Dahl's son Theo was three months old when he was walking with his. His nanny on the Upper east side, and Theo got hit by a taxi. And so he was in and out of the hospital for months, and then. And then really for years, starting when he was three months old, Theo developed something called hydrocephalus, which is like water on the brain. And there was no device in existence that would take water off of the brain without causing infection. And so Dahl, even though he had zero medical training, he was one of these guys. He lived sort of this Forrest Gump life where he just triumphed and triumphed and triumphed in whatever arena he went into. So when this device did not exist to help Theo, instead of just, like, throwing up his hands, as I'm sure I would have, he said, you know what? I'll build one. So he called a neurosurgeon that he knew and he called a toy maker that he knew. Their names were Wade and Till. And he put them in a room with himself, and they just threw ideas at the wall and came up. What is so amazing to me, they did it. They came up with a valve that was capable of taking water off of the brain without causing infection. And Dahl insisted that they not make any money on it so that it could be distributed widely. And it ended up being distributed across the world and being used in over 3,000 children.

[Aaron Tracy]

Yes. That's unbelievable. And thank you for the extra piece of trivia, which is the only other person you could find who was an actor who did something like this was Paul Winchell, who was the voice of Tigger and I think Dick Dastardly and Motley, and a comedian who also invented a medical apparatus. I was thinking of Hedy Lamar, who invented sort of RF Yeah, the precursor to Bluetooth. But that's amazing. And I want to consider it, as I consider the overall scope of Dahl's genius and his writing genius, and you trace it out, how he was very resistant to become a children's writer. And then he did in his whole life, he was defensive about it. But of course, not only was he skilled, he certainly had insight as to how he was going to do it differently from everyone else. And I want to know how much do you think this was a strategic insight? If I'm going to write children's books, I'm going to keep these elements of the adult and then play with some elements of fantasy to make it a children's book. And how much did he fall into it, either by trial or error or just by his method?

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I think he fell into it by necessity. His wife, Patricia Neal, had a series of strokes. She was the major breadwinner in the family. She was an incredibly successful movie star, and she could no longer work. So somebody needed to make money, especially when they had Theo, who required all these doctor bills, and Patricia herself, who required all these doctor bills. And so Dahl's career was not going well writing adult fiction. And his agent, agent reminded him, remember that story you wrote when you were in your twenties called the Gremlins? And it did so incredibly well. Eleanor Roosevelt read it and loved it and read it to her grandkids and invited you to the White House. Why don't you go back to something like that? Write a children's story? And so, yeah, as you said, he resisted it and resisted it and resisted it. And then finally he tried it. And when he tried it, he wrote a full novel. And it did terrible. This first novel of his sold 2,600 copies in its entire first year. But he didn't give up. A few years later, he kept writing. And a few years later, he said, you know what? It did terribly in America, I grant you, but this feels like a British story. It feels like we need British kids to read it. So he got his publisher, Knopf to publish it in England. And the first printing totally sold out, out. And then the next printing sold out and on and on and on. And then it came back to America and again, everything sold out. And that was James and the Giant Peach. So it went from selling basically nothing to becoming one of the most successful children's books in the history of the genre. And then from there, he was off to the races. The next book was Charlie and the

[Aaron Tracy]

Chocolate Factory was the Darkness seen as an impediment for penetrating the US Market.

[Mike Pesca]

I think you're right. I think it was so unusual. It was so different than any children's book that had come before that Americans, and specifically like American bookstores, just didn't know what to do with it, whereas in England, they were, for whatever reason they were, they were more okay with it. But. But I also think that that darkness is what's contributed to Doll being so incredibly successful. Children like the Darkness, they don't want sugary, saccharine stories. They want to be treated a little bit like adults or at least treated like, you know, they're starting to understand that the world is a cruel place, and they want books that speak to that.

[Aaron Tracy]

And we'll be back in a minute with more of Aaron Tracy.

[Mike Pesca]

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[Aaron Tracy]

cold cases on your commute, or playing amateur detective active at bedtime, Amazon Music's got millions of podcast episodes waiting. Just download the Amazon Music app and start listening to your favorite true crime podcasts, ad free included with Prime. The gist is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. We're back with Aaron Tracy, who is the host of the Secret World of Roald Dahl. Now, I want to get to the controversial part of Dahl. So first let's start with this fact, which is that as a young man seeking adventure, as young men did in England, of his milieu, he went by steamship to Africa, lived there for a while, and it was there that he. He saw families so poor that he got the inspiration for Charlie Bucket. And in the early drafts of the book, Charlie and his family were Black. And you spend. And the publishers wouldn't allow it. And you spend some time saying, imagine the statement it would have made about income inequality or just privation if Charlie were a black family. My question is, was that part of Doll's intent or, or were you just making the case that that would have been an add on thing to consider?

[Mike Pesca]

First of all, I love how closely you listen to the podcast. People don't listen to these podcasts that closely. Thank you for doing a textual analysis of it. Yeah. You know, in my mind, I think that that is me, Aaron, speaking sort of as, as an analyst of Dahl's work. I don't know that he had it in his mind. I certainly have no proof that he had it in his mind that he was going to make a statement about racial inequality. It just feels so natural that if in that time he was going to write Charlie and the Chocolate Factory with Charlie as black, with those grandparents all sharing the same bid as black, and then Wonka bestowing the entire company on Charlie. It just, it feels like it's inseparable to me from sort of saying something about how difficult race relations were at the period. Period.

[Aaron Tracy]

Was. Is there evidence he was racially progressive?

[Mike Pesca]

No, not that I can think of, no. But when he was in Africa, he befriended a bunch of kids. You know, Doll was a prickly guy, but he loved kids. Throughout his life, he was always really good to his own kids and to other kids. And I think he befriended some kids that he met in Africa. And so it might have been as simple as that. You know, looking at one of them, he said, you know what? This, this kid should be the protagonist of, of this great underdog story that I'm writing.

[Aaron Tracy]

So tell me about his anti Semitism.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, there's no question. I mean, it's, it's something that we're. That, that I grapple with. It's certainly an issue very close to my heart. It. And this.

[Aaron Tracy]

As you say, he wouldn't have attended your bar mitzvah.

[Mike Pesca]

Like I said, he wouldn't have come to my Hanukkah party. Yeah, okay, you're right. He would not have come to my Birmingham. So Dahl, late in life, he wrote a review of a book about the Israel Lebanon War, and in that review, he used a lot of anti Semitic tropes. Now, I am not excusing Dahl at all to say, to give you a little context around that review, which is he was, as you mentioned before, he was desperate to be seen as an adult writer, not just a kid's Writer. And so this was a adult book that he was reviewing in a very adult magazine. And so I think he was really, you know, sort of trying his best to come off as someone who had a lot to say and, you know, be very thoughtful about this, about this issue. He also had a terrible, terrible back at this point in his life. He was just in excruciating pain at all times, but nevertheless. Oh, and he was also, you know, he had just divorced his wife of 30 years, so he was going through a tough time. He was also incredibly anti Semitic, like, there's no question. So soon after the book review, he did an interview with the New Statesman where he kind of doubled down. His team wanted him to apologize, of course, for the anti Semitic tropes that were in his review. But instead, to the, you know, young interviewer at the New Statesman, this was not. This was not David Frost. This was not some brilliant journalist who, you know, manipulated Dahl into saying something he didn't want to say. Dahl just sort of offered up the famous line, there is a trait in the Jewish character that does provoke animosity. Even a stinker like Hitler didn't just pick on them for no reason. And he goes on from there. You know, again, there's, There's a lot of. I can give you a lot of context to this on my podcast. I bring on really brilliant people like the Atlantic, Yair Rosenberg, to help give, give some context.

[Aaron Tracy]

I'm not going to be able to listen to that one in double speed if I know Yair.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes, exact. Exactly.

[Aaron Tracy]

You gotta listen. Fastest talker I've ever heard. He's brilliant, but go ahead.

[Mike Pesca]

He is totally, totally brilliant and so smart about this subject. I also bring on, you know, equally brilliant people like Roxane Gay and Claire Dederer. I bring on the head of the philosophy, the philosophy department at Wellesley to really hash this all out. You know, again, I can give you some. Not explanation, but more of the context is that Dahl felt like when he was a spy and a fighter pilot in World War II, he was helping create the Jewish state. In some ways, he was helping the Jews of Europe, which is unquestionably true. Late in life, when he saw what Israel was doing in Lebanon, he really didn't like it. And the big problem, which of course we see all the time today, is instead of criticizing the Israeli government, the Israeli leadership that were doing the things that he detested, he blamed all Jews everywhere, which is just a classic anti Semitic trope.

[Aaron Tracy]

Yes. Is there evidence if he had never written that review Would there be evidence that his antisemitism leached into his work? You talked about the Big Friendly Giant or very much animated. All the things he talked about, which

[Mike Pesca]

were a lot of things so unclear. I mean, from that moment, from the review, he, People of course, never stopped asking him, him about that for the rest of his life. So he did give several more interviews that touched on it. And in one interview, and you know, right before he died, he said, I am anti Semitic. You know, so he, he was doubling down. If that review had never happened, probably people would not have asked him about it and it might not have come out. Yeah, and what I've sort of saying before is I don't really see the anti Semitism in the text in any of his books. Some people claim that they see anti Semitic tropes in the Witches and in another one of his stories, the Swan. I don't know, maybe I don't really see it very much. And so that's sort of something I'm, I'm grappling with. And I talk about on the podcast, like, do I stop my kids from reading Roald Dahl because of this? If I can't see it in the text, do I, do I not read the books myself to them? Is that hypocritical? When I don't deprive myself of watching Chinatown or any number of other things. Things, It's a, it's a thorny issue.

[Aaron Tracy]

Do you think things would be different about the anti Semitic part, specifically, as it's centered on Israel and wars with neighbors? Do you think, do you think that if he were writing similar sentiments today, but knew not to say, quite foolishly, I am anti Semitic, that he'd get more of a pass among, say, the elite institutions, Pan America, the sort of institutions that probably did come down and condemn him in the 1980s?

[Mike Pesca]

I don't know. I mean, you know, he, he didn't get, I mean, yes, he definitely got asked about it forever, but he was not canceled in any sense during his life, even after he said those things. Would he be today? Yes, probably because of the Internet, because of October, because of a million reasons. You're right. I think he would be more canceled today. And for what it's worth, the DOL state did issue an apology. Now this was around the same time that they licensed his work to Netflix for a huge amount of money. So take that apology for what it's worth. And also, Dahl was, was dead by that point.

[Aaron Tracy]

So, yeah, an estate's apology. I, I've authorized my estate to Apologize for everything I've ever done, including cutting you off in this interview. I actually think. I wonder what Yair would say about this. I think it's the opposite. I think that today there are he. Okay, so I would caveat it by saying he'd have to be sophisticated or clever enough to use equivalent phrases, code words, to be a little, A little more sophisticated about exactly how he expressed his opinion. But I think he'd. I think there'd be a significant number of people who would come to his defense in terms of the overall politics that he was expressing, and it wouldn't be the issue that it maybe was in the stage play, which I haven't seen. But I wonder how that plays going to play out if it comes to Broadway in 2026.

[Mike Pesca]

It is. The play opens on Broadway next month. And I'm. I think you're exactly right. And I'm very curious. You know, I'll say Kanye west came out with a track called Hail Hitler last year, and it doesn't seem to have affected him right now. He did apologize a few months ago, but again, I think it was around a big deal that he was signing. So we see a lot of anti Semitism in the mainstream right now. So, yeah, I mean, I think you're right that Dahl, especially with the specific issues that.

[Aaron Tracy]

Yeah, that's what I was going to say. His anti Semitism, the specific phrases notwithstanding, was centered on anti Zionism, which is perfectly acceptable among elites.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, yeah, it's. It's a fascinating thought exercise. I'm very curious what it would be like if, if DAW was, was around

[Aaron Tracy]

town today, I'd go further and say in 1982 or 1983, when he was doing the review, anti Zionism itself was right. Was beyond the pale. Beyond the pale in the New Statesman and in the sense making institutions of the West, I think sounds right to me.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Aaron Tracy]

There is other criticism of Dahl, for instance, the Oompa Loompas, insensitive to Africans, perhaps. And almost all of his fat characters are portrayed as portrayed quite negatively. J.K. rowling, too, I was put in that category, to me. And what do you think of this? And does the show. Because that these episodes aren't out yet, does the show engage with this? And is this something for Dahl to apologize for? Was he ever even asked about it?

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, we get into that in later episodes. So what? His publisher, after his death, long after his death, went back through the books and excised any language that could be thought of as offensive. This is just a few Years ago during sort of the height of cancel culture. And so they got rid of every instance of the word fat. They got rid of ugly. They even changed black and white, even if it wasn't in a context referring to skin color. I mean it was just. They went so far that it became like a Saturday Night Live sketch. I mean it was ridiculous. And so yeah, so I am obviously as, as. As any writer would be. I am completely anti censorship. A lot of writers came to Dahl's defense. Salman Rushdie maybe most prominently came to the defense of, I mean of Dahl, even though Dahl was dead. But of, of the work, of the, of the importance of not changing a dead author's work. So yeah, it, it by far, you know, they just went way, way, way, way, way too far, I would even say.

[Aaron Tracy]

And I wonder what you think about this thought that the, that the more sensible version of that, you know, let's not be offensive. And this is gratuitous mistake. Makes the same mistake about Doll as so many people who are shocked that kids like something dark. There is something to the darkness and the cruelty that makes the overall work work. And if you start, I mean it's probably not the case that if you call a. Fewer other characters something other than fat or if you use corpulent or you lessen a description, the books will still be great. But I think that that is plays into the tendency of not recognizing the ID that he writes with and what children are really responding to. To. But what are your thoughts on that?

[Mike Pesca]

No, I think that makes a lot of sense. I totally see where you're coming from. I also think that it's just, I don't even when the writer is still alive, I don't want them going back and changing their old works. You know, I don't like it when George Lucas goes back and changes, you know, elements of, of. Of Star wars. Like when it's done, it's done because we are always going to try to fiddle with things, you know, later, but we should have the. The person who made it. Which means the 25 year old or the 26 year old, not the 56 year old year old make those decisions. So yeah, I think it's. Yeah, I just. I'm completely against it. I will say the Agatha Christie, the best selling Agatha Christie book is. And then there were none which had a completely offensive title. Right. Including a racial epithet for many years. And they ch. Her estate because it was after she was dead her estate chose to change the title. And I'm actually all for that because if it had kept the racial epithet, it could not be sold. It should not be sold. Absolutely. And so that is all to say, these things are not black and white. These things are, you know, you got to look at every case on its own.

[Aaron Tracy]

That we agree on. And we also agree, I think you agree, that the Secret Life of Roald Dahl is a compelling and fascinating story about a compelling and fascinating guy. Aaron Tracy is behind this now very successful blockbuster podcast. Aaron, thanks so much.

[Mike Pesca]

Thanks so much for having me. This is so fun.

[Aaron Tracy]

And that's it for today's show. Cory War produces the Gist, Kathleen Sykes runs the Gist list, Ben Astaire is our booking producer, and Jeff Craig runs our socials. Michelle Pesca oversees it all but benevolently. And thanks for listening. Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself

[Mike Pesca]

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[Aaron Tracy]

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[Mike Pesca]

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[Aaron Tracy]

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[Mike Pesca]

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