Podcast Summary: The Gist — "Alicia Wanless — The Ecology of Information"

Date: October 22, 2025
Host: Mike Pesca (Peach Fish Productions)
Guest: Alicia Wanless, Senior Fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, Author of The Information Animal: Humans, Technology, and the Competition for Reality

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the concept of "information ecology," exploring our modern information landscape through the lens of ecological science. Mike Pesca and Alicia Wanless discuss how humans, as "information animals," interact with surges of technology, misinformation, disinformation, and the historical patterns that shape collective understanding and conflict. The conversation aims to move beyond tired analogies, looking for concrete, practical ways to better understand and navigate the chaotic informational environment of today.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why the “Ecology” Framework? ([08:22]–[09:48])

• Wanless’s Approach: She identifies not just as a technologist, but as an “information ecologist,” proposing that methods from physical ecology offer a powerful, systemic approach to understanding information environments.

  • Quote:
    "We can borrow methods from physical ecology... to understand the information environment and ecosystems within it. Basically, that's a way of giving us a systemic understanding that bridges together different disciplines in an organized way." —Alicia Wanless ([08:44])

• Beyond Analogy: The "ecology" idea isn't merely metaphorical—it's about drawing from scientific study of complex systems to understand causality in information dynamics.

2. The DDT Analogy and Complexity of Causation ([09:49]–[13:40])

• Learning from History: Wanless recounts how, in ecology, it took years and much scientific effort to prove that DDT caused egg-thinning in predators—not by direct ingestion, but through indirect food chain effects. She draws a parallel to attempts to "prove" social media causes polarization, noting oversimplification is common.

  • Quote:
    “We can't possibly understand cause and effect in a complex system if we don't know how the system works.” —Wanless ([09:48])

• Limitations of Experiments: Studies on social media's effects are often not replicable and leave room for manipulation by those with vested interests—echoing the playbook of companies defending DDT.

3. Social Media, Polarization, and Systemic Thinking ([13:40]–[15:44])

• Indirect Effects and Reverse Causation: Pesca and Wanless discuss how social media may not directly cause phenomena like anger or polarization; instead, complex, multi-step chains and feedback loops are at play.

  • Quote:
    “Is social media causing us to be angry, or is the anger... driving us... making certain forms of social media popular? Seems hard to disentangle.”—Pesca ([14:17])

• Wanless’s Solution: Instead of rushing to assign causation, she advocates for developing a systemic, “1,000 mile view” before isolating variables—mirroring ecological approaches to complex problems.

4. Historical Case Studies—Information Surges and Upheaval ([16:58]–[24:35])

• Example: King Charles I and Information Explosion
  Wanless shares research on the English Civil War era, where new information technology (pamphlets, printing, postal services) dramatically increased the speed and breadth of political ideas, paralleling social media today.

  • Key Insights:

    • New technologies (like pamphlets, increased literacy, and postal services) result in floods of information, enabling broader participation and rapid dissemination of competing ideas.
    • Information overload isn’t unique to the internet age—historical precedent abounds.

  • Quote:
    “A new means that was introduced into the ecosystem changed how people processed information... So there was an increase in volume, but there was also an increase in the ability to spread them.”—Wanless ([17:22])

• Patterns from History:
  New informational tools spur not just more "good" information, but pollution and manipulation, often in times of social or political dislocation.

5. Disinformation: Problems with Definition and Policy ([24:35]–[27:34])

• Pesca’s Skepticism:
  He argues the word “disinformation” has lost meaning, questioning the value of “disinformation experts,” and noting the term is often a pejorative for information one simply disagrees with.

  • "I have grown increasingly... I just think the word [disinformation] has become almost useless." —Pesca ([24:35])

• Wanless’s Response:
  She differentiates disinformation (intentional) from misinformation (unintentional), but acknowledges that real-world classification and policy application are murky.

  • Once a narrative exists, suppression often backfires and becomes politicized, making eradication nearly impossible.

  • Quote:
    “Once [a narrative] is there in an ecosystem, it’s really difficult to eradicate because people hold a belief, they hold an idea, and the minute you try to police or do anything about it, [it] opens up the potential for it to become a political issue.”—Wanless ([26:23])

6. Winning Information Wars: Suppression vs. Openness ([27:34]–[30:39])

• Does Suppression Work?
  Historical examples suggest suppressing technologies or ideas rarely leads to lasting success—those in favor of suppression typically lose.

  • Quote:
    "The suppressor of technology or information loses. I can't think of too many who won."—Pesca ([28:03])

  • Wanless responds that attempts to control the flow of information rarely yield good outcomes, particularly in societies that value truth and democratic principles.

    • Quote:
      "In democracies, it's counterintuitive to control information... it's really hard, I think, to have a system that purports to value the truth and then tries to control information such that it would be a victor." —Wanless ([29:55])

• Democracies and Free Information Flow:
  Any system that truly values truth tends to allow for a free and independent press, making successful suppression both unlikely and incompatible with democratic ideals.

7. Final Takeaways

• There is no easy, optimistic answer: Information environments are complex, ever-evolving, and fraught with recurring problems.
• The study of information ecology suggests a “grade incomplete”—we’re only beginning to understand how to manage these forces in a democratic society.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "We can borrow methods from physical ecology... to understand the information environment and ecosystems within it." —Wanless ([08:44])
• “We can't possibly understand cause and effect in a complex system if we don't know how the system works.” —Wanless ([09:48])
• “Is social media causing us to be angry, or is the anger... driving us... making certain forms of social media popular?” —Pesca ([14:17])
• “Once [a narrative] is there in an ecosystem, it’s really difficult to eradicate because people hold a belief...” —Wanless ([26:23])
• "The suppressor of technology or information loses. I can't think of too many who won."—Pesca ([28:03])
• “In democracies, it's counterintuitive to control information... it's really hard... to have a system that purports to value the truth and then tries to control information such that it would be a victor.” —Wanless ([29:55])

Key Segment Timestamps

• Ecology as a Framework: [08:22]–[09:48]
• DDT Analogy & Scientific Method: [09:48]–[13:40]
• Complex Causation in Social Media: [13:40]–[15:44]
• Information Surges Throughout History: [16:58]–[24:35]
• Disinformation vs. Misinformation: [24:35]–[27:34]
• Openness vs. Suppression in Info Wars: [27:34]–[30:39]
• Closing Thoughts and Takeaways: [30:39]–[30:59]

Conclusion

Pesca and Wanless deftly trace how historical and modern information “ecosystems” operate, warning against the simplistic urge to blame technology for societal woes or to believe that disinformation can be eradicated via suppression. Their ultimate call is for more nuanced, systemic thinking—looking at the information environment as a complex, evolving whole, informed by lessons from ecology and history.

Alicia Wanless’s book, The Information Animal: Humans, Technology, and the Competition for Reality, is available now.**