The Gist: Ben Smith On Truth At A Lower Resolution

Host: Mike Pesca
Guest: Ben Smith, CEO and Editor-in-Chief of Semaphore
Release Date: July 23, 2025

Introduction: Questioning Reality

Timestamp: [00:32]

Mike Pesca opens the episode by delving into the elusive nature of reality, particularly in the context of high-profile cases like Jeffrey Epstein's. He highlights the cognitive dissonance within different political bases, especially among Trump supporters who grapple with conflicting narratives about Epstein’s reality. Pesca draws an analogy to schizophrenia to illustrate how fragmented and uncertain our understanding of reality can be when information is scarce or contradictory.

Navigating Media and Reality with Ben Smith

Timestamp: [10:10] - [37:45]

Mike Pesca: "What is reality? Oh no, you're starting there."

Ben Smith joins the conversation, bringing his extensive background from former roles at The New York Times and BuzzFeed News to the table. They explore the intricate relationship between Donald Trump and the media, debating whether Trump is a boon or bane for journalistic freedom.

Key Discussion Points:

1. Trump's Dual Role in Media:

   • Ben Smith: "You say, you know, I mean, he's obviously hostile to independent journalism and he has a great story. Those two things are true at the same time." ([10:25])
   • Analysis: Trump serves as both a challenge and a catalyst for media outlets, pushing them to navigate between hostility and the demand for news dissemination.

2. Corporate Media’s Pressure:

   • Ben discusses the increasing pressure on corporate media to align with political agendas, particularly under Trump’s influence.
   • Ben Smith: "You see both big corporations for whom news is a tiny little annoying loss making slice that might get in the way of really important sale, just twist themselves into knots to please the White House." ([11:45])
   • Insight: This alignment can lead to self-censorship and compromises in journalistic integrity.

3. Wall Street Journal’s Stance:

   • The Wall Street Journal is highlighted as an example of a traditional media outlet maintaining its journalistic rigor despite external pressures.
   • Ben Smith: "The Wall Street Journal's editorial page has offered like this very lucent and sometimes strident criticism of Trump when they feel he's violating principles they care about." ([16:26])
   • Notable Quote: "Murdoch understands that the strength of being a newspaper proprietor is not that you're going to micromanage and kill deals for your friends. It's that you own these basically unguided missiles that are out there playing huge roles in the culture." ([20:51])

4. Credibility and Public Trust:

   • Discussion on how media missteps, such as inaccuracies in reporting, have eroded public trust.
   • Ben Smith: "When you get small things wrong... journalism doesn't really have a mechanism that says, hey, we ought to write, you know, a really big correction of that." ([35:05])

The Rise of Alternative Media: Substack and Beyond

Timestamp: [39:00] - [43:10]

Pesca and Smith transition to discussing the evolution of media platforms, focusing on Substack's emergence as a significant player in independent journalism.

Key Discussion Points:

1. Substack’s Business Model and Influence:

   • Ben Smith: "Substack really does contain multitudes. And I was talking to one of my kids the other day who said, hey, did you see that article about how all the girls on Substack sound the same?" ([40:30])
   • Insight: Substack offers a platform for diverse voices, but also faces challenges in distinguishing credible content from homogenized or sensationalized material.

2. Media Martyrdom and Personal Branding:

   • The concept of "media martyrdom" is explored, where journalists gain followers by positioning themselves against perceived adversaries.
   • Mike Pesca: "The model, the business model is what I call the media martyrdom monetization model..." ([42:36])

3. Creating Stars in Alternative Platforms:

   • The discussion highlights how platforms like Substack allow creators to build personal brands and followings outside traditional media structures.
   • Ben Smith: "It's a playbook. I don't know if it's a good playbook for the rest of us, but this seems to be the playbook." ([43:10])

Misinformation, AI, and the Erosion of Truth

Timestamp: [45:35] - [48:19]

The conversation shifts to the pervasive issue of misinformation and the role of artificial intelligence in shaping perceptions of reality.

Key Discussion Points:

1. Fact-Checking and Its Limitations:

   • Ben Smith: "There was this pseudo academic framework around fact checking and misinformation that should have just been left. Journalists figure out what's true, what's false." ([45:35])
   • Insight: Reliance on external fact-checking mechanisms can sometimes undermine journalists' own capacity to discern truth.

2. Impact of AI on Information Authenticity:

   • The rise of AI-generated content has heightened skepticism about the authenticity of information.
   • Mike Pesca: "How a certain kind of person protects themselves by telling themselves they're sophisticated is to not believe truth. Is to believe nothing." ([46:56])

3. Erosion of Trust in Media Institutions:

   • The decline in trust is compounded by both misinformation and the inability of media to consistently uphold factual reporting.
   • Ben Smith: "And this was what, yeah, the Epstein stuff really embodies that kind of, like, lazy skepticism." ([47:22])

Concluding Insights: The Struggle for Truth in Modern Media

Timestamp: [48:19] - [49:16]

As the episode wraps up, Pesca and Smith reflect on the current state of media and the ongoing challenges in establishing a universally accepted reality.

Key Takeaways:

• Complex Media Landscape: The fragmentation of media sources has made it increasingly difficult for audiences to identify and rely on credible information.

• Journalistic Responsibility: There is a pressing need for journalists to maintain integrity and resist external pressures to preserve public trust.

• Future of Media: Platforms like Semaphore and Substack represent both opportunities and challenges in redefining how information is disseminated and consumed.

Final Quote: "The reality is such a vortex of unreality at the center of it, it's very hard to correctly predict the real implications of this unreality." ([unknown timestamp])

Closing Remarks

Timestamp: [49:16]

Mike Pesca thanks Ben Smith for his insights and wraps up the episode, emphasizing the ongoing quest to understand and navigate the complex interplay between media, truth, and reality.

Notable Quotes:

• Mike Pesca: "It's just reality folding into itself, reflecting and refracting unreality." ([00:32])

• Ben Smith: "Our audience flee to partisan media, that flatters their prejudices." ([36:45])

• Mike Pesca: "How do we know that? The reality of the Jake Tapper book and the Alex Thompson book in microcosm, the reality is that this was a success that added to our knowledge and not a failure that exposed him for whatever flaws his critics are alleging." ([26:32])

• Ben Smith: "What adds to your understanding of what really happened? I sort of go back to what's happening with the Epstein stuff right now where there are these bipartisan incentives to indulge in just like, absolute nonsense." ([29:13])

Conclusion

In this thought-provoking episode of The Gist, Mike Pesca and Ben Smith dissect the tangled web of media credibility, political influence, and the elusive nature of truth in the modern age. They underscore the challenges journalists face in maintaining integrity amidst external pressures and the evolving media landscape, urging listeners to critically evaluate the sources and veracity of the information they consume.