Chuck Todd (6:36)

I don't think that's fiery, but it's But I also I think even getting involved in small d Democratic reform can come across as activism. Yeah, right. A little bit. So look, here's what I do believe. I think I've had too prominent of a career in journalism to go into partisan politics. I won't do it no matter which side of the aisle. I just wouldn't. My 18 year old self thought he was going to. I remember wondering maybe I will know be a state rep one day or something like that. But I do want to be. Look, I want to do two things. Try to improve the ME the information ecosystem and try to champion what I think should be a modern in the same way we needed a bill to fix our roads and bridges. The infrastructure of democracy needs updating and it just simply needs updating and we know it does the stuff that everybody doesn't like. There are actually some non constitutional amendment fixes that could be made before we go down the road of putting a constitutional amendment in. And I think there are some ways to do it and that in that area I want to whether it's open, getting rid of all partisan primaries in one form or another, expanding the House. I think the problem with the news media and the problem with politicians these days is they're too far away from the people. And so I think, you know, what's the equivalent of improving local news for the, for the political side of the aisle? It's making people feel like what, Bringing Washington closer to the people.

Host (8:09)

So if you do expand the House, do you double it? Do you triple it? Do we have over a thousand members of the House of Representatives? Because this is my concern with it.

Chuck Todd (8:18)

Right.

Host (8:18)

It's still. Right now, every representative represents 700,000 people. So even if that number is 350,000 or 175,000, that's way bigger than the Dunbar number. You still can't get your arms around it. My state senator represents fewer than those people, and I barely know or care about my state senator. And here's another problem. If you think Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert are. Or pick whatever version of a radical person on the left, you are going to open the door to a lot of them if you triple the number of Congress people.

Chuck Todd (8:49)

All right, but let's look at it this way. It's closer to 800,000. 800,000. Austin, Texas is as America's 14th largest city. It doesn't have a population of 800,000.

Host (9:02)

Well, that's only if you go to the Austin city limits, the suburbs of.

Chuck Todd (9:06)

There you go. But I, but you're actually helping make the point. Now. Let me give you where I would draw the line right now, which is at 400,000. I like it.

Host (9:16)

And I'll tell you why. Staten Island. Staten island needs its own rep. And that's.

Chuck Todd (9:19)

So There you go, 400,000. 50th largest city in America is 400,000. And the 50th largest city in America is Arlington, Texas. That is a suburb of Dallas. Right. If you ask me, is Arlington, Texas a community of interest that deserve its own representation in Washington? You're like, yeah, that seems pretty reasonable. And the point is, when you're at 800,000, it's easier to gerrymander. It's easier to win a primary by having a faction at 400,000. You're more likely to understand how your community works in a. In totality, you're. Yes, you're going to have. You're going to have a lot more of people. You may have more Marjorie Taylor greens, but I promise you it this, by the way, it's 881 members of the House. If we went to a one by 400, you'd have 881 so essentially doubling, you know, a little less than, you know, right around, I guess you're exactly doubling, doubling it. And you would have, I think, certainly more Marjorie Taylor Greens, but you'd have more Max Frosts. And you'd have people, probably a few actual independents, people that run on a third party probably would have a Working Families Party now player in there. You probably have a conservative party that there's actually some in, in some states, maybe a Libertarian. You'd have a few more of those voices in the room. That's one. But the other two things that it does is that I think it makes gerrymandering harder. Right. When you have smaller pieces to the puzzle, it's less necessary to. And it's, it's almost harder to chop it up. And then they, of course, the, the, the biggest intended consequence of doubling the size of the House is, right, sizing the Electoral College. You can, we can sit here and have this, you know, these fantasy ideas of creating a compact between states or a constitutional amendment that you have to get through 38 legislatures, or you can just have an act of Congress double the size of the House, and you take the ratio of Wyoming to California, when it comes to power, of picking the president from six to one down to two and a half to one, which is actually what the framers were trying to get to, which is small states. We're always going to have a little bit of outside influence, but not too much.

Don Bacon (11:32)

Right.

Chuck Todd (11:32)

And I think that would put it within a reasonable. And I promise you, you wouldn't have a split decision nearly as often as we've had in the last 25 years.

Host (11:43)

Chuck Todd used to be the host of Meet the Press, and they said, if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press. I always thought that was a confusion of cause and effect. But now we could say if it's Monday, Wednesday, Friday.

Chuck Todd (11:53)

There it is, buddy.

Host (11:54)

Chuck Todd. Cast. Chuck, thanks a lot.

Chuck Todd (11:56)

Hey, this was, this was great.

Host (12:06)

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Listener (13:29)

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Mike (13:59)

Don Bacon is a retired Air Force general. He also serves Nebraska's 2nd congressional district. It's pretty much all of Omaha and some areas to the west. Now electorally, Bacon won by 1.2% of the vote. In 2016, he was the only Republican to beat an incumbent Democrat. In 2018, he beat Kara Eastman by 2% of the vote, meaning if he stays at this rate for another 20 years, he'll be at, you know, double digits in terms of his electoral margin of victory.

Don Bacon (14:32)

Six years.

Mike (14:32)

That's right. I wanted to talk to Congressman Bacon about campaigning during these times and also about some of the issues before him as a legislator. Thanks for coming on.

Don Bacon (14:42)

Thank you. I really appreciate it.

Mike (14:44)

Absolutely. So first let's just talk about and then I want to get into how you run how maybe corona virus disrupted the schedule. First, let's talk about coronavirus. Now, Dr. Ali Khan of the University of Nebraska Medical center gave a briefing yesterday and said the outbreak is not controlled in Nebraska by any set of criteria. And per capita, Nebraska is one of the hardest hit states. What has dealing with COVID 19 and Coronavirus been like for your state?

Don Bacon (15:12)

Our primary infection areas were the meatpacking plants that were hard hit and then our nursing homes and retirement centers were hit pretty hard. But you know, outside of that, it was not But I don't want to minimize what, you know, the harm done for the meatpacking plants and our nursing homes. They were tragic. We had very high infection rates with our meat packers. And of course, that became a national emergency because meat production was down about 30 or 40%, which the prices for meat then doubled in America. And then a lot of our ranchers were going out of business because the price of meat going into the meat processing plants were reduced. But for campaigning, you know, a lot of folks didn't want to talk about political stuff for two months there, and I don't blame them. So our focus was to do constituent services and to make sure people understood what was in the CARES bill, the paycheck protection plan, for example, and make sure that the banks had resources at the SBA to ensure that we could answer questions. And I did a lot of volunteer time. We were out going to food banks, homeless shelters, and we were working. That was the best way to be with our constituents. Folks didn't want to talk about politics. They don't really care if you're Republican or Democrat during the COVID when they're out of work. But they did care that we could get our economy back moving at some point and do what we needed to do when the COVID virus was a big threat.

Mike (16:31)

So you were campaigning, though, or engaged in constituent services, engaged in helping the people who you serve. And yet I would imagine that if there wasn't a coronavirus, there'd be a certain schedule. Were there any kind of events that you would be doing that you couldn't do because you couldn't have a large gathering or because people couldn't turn out for a rally or something like that?

Don Bacon (16:52)

Yeah, we had multiple political events scheduled back in February and March for the next two months that we had to cancel. Whether you're a challenger or an incumbent, you know, you have to do political events. Some of us fundraising, some of its rallies or combinations thereof. Nebraska was a little more permissive environment. It was more volunteer stuff versus maybe New York, where it was more legally controlled by law enforcement. But all the same, I canceled multiple events. And really what our focus was constituent services, helping people get the support they needed, and going out and volunteering in the community.

Mike (17:29)

Do you think that it impeded you more than your opponent, who it looks like will be Kara Eastman again, Or do you think that you were both essentially playing on the same playing field?

Don Bacon (17:40)

You can look at a couple different ways. I would say this, and I'm a very transparent person here. You say you're interviewing the right guy.

Mike (17:46)

Good.

Don Bacon (17:46)

I think the, you know, the Democrats have an advantage in this situation, I believe, because they are much more advanced in digital fundraising, which they could continue during the COVID So, you know, a lot of my opponents fundraising comes through ActBlue, the Justice Democrats. So there's a lot of networks in California and New York and I think that those can keep going. But Democrats by and large have an advantage in the digital and the Republicans are playing catch up in that area. And so I think in this environment the digital fundraising was an advantage, I would say. On the other part of this, though, I did a lot of stuff in my official capacity that was not campaigning, but yet we're working with the constituents. So I think there's an advantage there when you're in an official position. I mean, I talked to 200,000 people in March and April in our district through virtual town halls and all the different messaging that we were doing. So there was an advantage there. And you know, most incumbents get that kind of advantage because you're doing the work for the constituents. And even if it's not political, folks see you working. So I think there was an advantage there. So, you know, it depends what angle you're talking about here. In some areas I would say my opponent probably had an advantage. In other areas I did.

Mike (18:57)

When the layman starts paying attention to a political race, maybe sometime around Labor Day, the professional will have been laying the groundwork. So maybe if you draw a thousand people for a rally in September, it's because you're building upon the 500 that you drew for a rally in June and the 100 beforehand. Do you expect that sort of effect to occur that because you couldn't plant the seeds over these last few months, we'll see a different sort of campaign by the end when everyone's watching?

Don Bacon (19:27)

Well, I do think it's going to be slowed. I would have been doing much more door to door. I have probably one of the best ground games of any of the Republicans in Congress.

Mike (19:36)

You know, I've averaged which is ironic for an Air Force general, is it not?

Don Bacon (19:40)

Yeah. Well, I love air superiority, but it's not applicable here.

Host (19:44)

That's right.

Don Bacon (19:45)

And so we average the last two cycles, 150 young volunteers in our team. We have a really good door knocking team and a really good calling program. So we had to put on hold the door knocking end of that. But we did door knocking last summer and fall. We did 30,000 doors in this district. You got to have a plan almost the entire Cycle, there's different phases. You don't do TV the whole time, but you do that at the end. But door knocking and calling is about a two year plan in your cycle. So I would say we're a little farther behind. But you know, in the primary the Republicans significantly outturned the Democrats this time in my district, whereas two years ago we had an 8,000 disadvantage. This year we had about a 3,000 advantage. And that's a huge turn. So I don't know how it really manifests itself come around November. You know, there's a lot of external factors that play in the energy in a campaign.

Mike (20:40)

Right.

Don Bacon (20:41)

I'll be out walking the ground through November on a sporadic basis.

Mike (20:46)

So when you do in the near term, will you wear a mask?

Don Bacon (20:49)

I will, I will. You know, I always take one with me. You know, in some areas when you're working with folks and they're not wearing them, I try to sort of blend in with what if I'm in an office environment, what that office is doing. But I always carry one with me. And going door to door, I would, I would take the mask with me.

Mike (21:07)

Yeah. Because I know how masks have become politicized. So I think there are a few factors. Maybe some people, you'd knock on their door and they will resent it, but maybe some people will think that if you don't wear a mask, then that is being uncivil. And I know you're a member of the civility caucus, so there are a few considerations, I think, given how political just everything, including pieces of fabric have become.

Don Bacon (21:29)

Yeah. I'm not sure why wearing a fabric becomes so political, but I see it myself. I've had Democrats say, don, you better not go out without your mask. You have some Republicans that have the opposite view. I take it with me wherever I go because I typically, my going in notion is I'll wear it and. But if, you know, if I'm in a, in a unit where nobody's wearing it, I'll sort of, I sort of fit in. One thing I do do, I wash my hands incessantly. Because I think that's the most key to staying healthy.

Mike (21:56)

Yeah, well, there's a logic actually not to wearing it when people aren't. Unless you have the respirator. The point of masks is to. Is for the mask wearer not to spread it. And if no one around you is wearing a mask, then maybe you don't owe that courtesy to them.

Don Bacon (22:10)

I'm just being honest. I try to fit in where I go. If people are wearing them, I'm wearing it. If they're not, you know, I don't. And I just try to blend, you know, like a lot of our TV stations, they force their interviewers to wear the mask. So I'll do it out of respect and courtesy for them. So I just sort of blend in with what's going on.

Mike (22:29)

Have your constituents blamed the federal government or specifically the Trump administration for a poor response to the pandemic?

Don Bacon (22:38)

Well, I would say some of the partisan Democrats have, but I don't think the rank and file middle America has. But I think most voters in Nebraska feel like that generally the right things were done at the national level, but also at our state level. I think our governor here is by and large had pretty good favorable ratings on how he's responded. We're in a federalist system, so the national government has some roles, but our states and counties and locals governments have just as important roles for the local area. And so it's a blended responsibility.

Mike (23:08)

So what I'm hearing is it's not a headwind for you in terms of campaigning, just in terms of the persuadable voters. Yes, the people who will vote Democrat no matter what, they might have criticism, but it hasn't affected your strategy or campaigning. Okay, so what about the latest with the protests over George Floyd? If you look at the president's approval rating, it has gone down in a measurable way. Has that been a headwind for you in terms of getting out there and convincing people that a Republican is the best to serve them in Congress?

Don Bacon (23:39)

You know, I would say not yet, but I think it's still unfolding. You know, I was at a rally last week and the speaker there, a pastor in a, a wonderful man, you know, so here Don Bacon's in the audience. This man has been with North Omaha and the African American community since he's been elected and he's never left us. So I'm not a Johnny come lately with our African American community at all. I've been working. I've probably done more in that part of town than I have done anywhere in my district. And so I would say I've worked hard. I've gotten five or six different projects that I've worked on that are focused on our community in north Omaha. And so I think I've had, I've delivered results. But you never know, you know, when the head of the ticket is struggling, it's going to affect somewhat down the ballot or if he's doing better, it's going to have a positive effect. So there. I wouldn't say it's a one for one, but there is some impact that will happen.

Mike (24:36)

Right? You issued a four sentence statement and I'll read it for my audience. Law enforcement matters are best left to the police with National Guard assistance if they request it. Although the President does have the legal authority to intervene with federal troops, this should only be used as a last resort. I am pleased to see recent statements by Secretary Esper and the President that they don't believe such intervention will be necessary. I agree with General Mattis that quoting him we must summon unity to surmount this crisis, confident that we are better than our politics. I want to specifically ask you about that invocation of General Mattis. You didn't have to do that. He issued a searing critique of the President's actions. It's notable to me that you would quote General Mattis in your statement, associating yourself with his remarks. Why did you think it was important to quote General Mattis in this statement?

Don Bacon (25:24)

Well, I agreed with that statement from General Mattis. Like I said, I didn't agree with his whole statement. But I do think General Mattis has a point. We want, whether it's the President or any of us to have a more unifying message. We don't need to be destroying ourselves and vandalizing each other's property or committing violence against each other. And I just think the acrimony in the last year or two is so off the chart. By the way, I've served with General Mattis in different ways during my career. And it was one of my units as a commander that helped him out when he was a two star in Iraq and we helped detonate an IED before he got to it that was destined to target him. And so he's got a great statement. That Compass Call, that was the aircraft that I was in charge of saved his life. And I've always appreciated General Mattis as a general. I think he's one of the best combat generals we've produced since World War II, frankly. So he has my admiration. I like the job that he does as the Secretary of Defense. I don't think he was quite on target though with this last statement. He didn't talk about the violence that was being done. You know, the Lincoln Memorial was defaced, The World War II memorial was defaced, the AFL CIO building was burnt, that 205 year old church was firebombed. So a lot of these issues, people want to make it 100 or a zero. And I don't I don't think it's that simple. I think there, there are some things I agree with what he said and there's some things I think General Mattis was not on target.

Mike (26:46)

Yeah, well, it doesn't surprise me that a guy who's won elections with, you know, 48 and 48.7% of the vote would not see things as 100 to nothing. And listeners should know that you are one of the few members of Congress. Well, I guess everyone who, who represents a state at large is in this camp, too. But your electoral district has its own electoral vote in the Electoral College. Maine and Nebraska do it that way. And the second it did go for Barack Obama, which was, I think, the first time a Democrat won since 1964. And Donald Trump just won very, very narrowly. So that's the background to ask is Donald Trump, is your association with Donald Trump a hindrance, a help? And has that changed since the last election?

Don Bacon (27:28)

Well, he won by about three points last time. I thought I had more total votes, but when you start throwing in third party candidates, my margin of victory was less, if that makes sense.

Mike (27:38)

Yes.

Don Bacon (27:38)

And so, and I defeated an incumbent Democrat when I came in. So this is a clearly a purple district. Fact is, if you look at margin of victory, I haven't done the work myself, but I read this that we're the sixth most competitive district in the country by margin of victory going back over the last decade. So just puts it in perspective. It's a tight district. The normal win is two points. That's the typical victory going back a decade in this district. And so I don't think your question's easy to answer in that, particularly my voters, at least on the Republican side, they support President Trump by like 96% more for his policies. Not necessarily all the statements in Twitter, but the policy side, they're pro life, pro Second Amendment, want to have lower taxes. Most of the policy sides, The Republicans are 96%. If you look at the polling data, on board with that, will you be.

Mike (28:30)

Voting for President Trump in 2020?

Don Bacon (28:32)

Absolutely. When it comes between him and Joe Biden, not only me, but this district would fall behind President Trump on those top five issues. But to win this district, I also have to appeal to independents of moderates, and there's no doubt about that. And, you know, if you look at like my Lugar score from the Lugar Center, I'm right in the top index.

Mike (28:50)

Yeah.

Don Bacon (28:50)

Yeah. I'm right in the top 7% of Congress on that. And I think from that I've been able to get endorsements like Joe Lieberman's endorsed. The previous Democratic nominee for governor endorsed me. The only Democratic mayor in the district endorsed. And the guy who ran the Democratic Party for almost four years in Nebraska endorsed me. And we have more coming. And so I feel like I've been able to also reach into the independent and moderate Democrats, and I have to do that to win this district. You cannot win just with your base, but you can't lose your base either. So it's a, it's a. Yeah. So to answer your question, it's, it's not a simple answer. You can't lose your base, but you cannot win with just your base.

Mike (29:27)

Don Bacon represents Nebraska's 2nd district in the United States Congress. Thank you so much, Representative Bacon.

Don Bacon (29:34)

It was an honor to speak to you.

Host (29:44)

And that's it for today's show. Cory Warra produces the gist. He's back. Michelle Peska, CBSO of Peach Fish Productions. Astrid Green runs our Social. Leo Baum is our intern. So many more people to thank and get to. But most of all, you. You're the real heroes. And thanks for listening. The Gist is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians.

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