Bob Saget & Chuck Klosterman: "I Really Have Become Liza Minnelli"

Summary

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The Gist – “Bob Saget & Chuck Klosterman: ‘I Really Have Become Liza Minnelli’”

Date: November 28, 2025
Host: Mike Pesca
Guests: Bob Saget, Chuck Klosterman

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Episode Overview

On this unofficial “semi-official” day off in America, Mike Pesca presents two standout archival interviews: the late comedian and actor Bob Saget, and cultural critic/author Chuck Klosterman. Through lively, candid, and introspective exchanges, Pesca and his guests explore the boundaries of comedy, the evolution of television and celebrity, shifting cultural norms, and the nature of truth and opinion in the modern era.

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Segment 1: Bob Saget – His Comic Persona, Career and Legacy

Timestamps: [05:26] – [18:37]

Key Discussion Points & Insights

• Bob Saget's Self-Perception vs. Public Image

  • Saget reflects on his reputation for “raunchy” comedy versus his widespread recognition as the wholesome dad from Full House and host of America’s Funniest Home Videos.
  • Emphasizes the complexity of his comedic voice: equal parts “dirty comic” and “cuddly sitcom dad.”
  • Quote: “I really have become Liza Minnelli. I just, I. I want to entertain people.” (Bob Saget, [10:47])

• On Jokes, Boundaries, and Societal Change

  • Talks about evolving standards and backlash in comedy, referencing movements like #MeToo and the Access Hollywood tape.
  • Points out the selective outrage society exhibits toward jokes and offenses, and how context and medium matter.
  • Quote: “For all the comments that get protested, there are tons of stuff going on either under the radar...So it's all like what we choose to pay attention to. And to some extent, we're primed to get a little upset.” (Mike Pesca, [10:01])

• Comedy and Catharsis

  • Discusses the expectation placed on comedians to provide catharsis for audiences, sometimes blurring the lines between their public and private selves.
  • Saget mentions how his sitcom work unintentionally rendered him a source of comfort for families going through adversity.
  • Quote: “How can I be cynical or not appreciative of when a mother comes up to me and says, ‘I raised my kids by myself because my husband left or died...and they said, you helped me talk to my kids.’” (Bob Saget, [12:17])

• The Nature of Standup and Career Longevity

  • Saget recounts his standup origins, including his early absurdist material and how comedic styles have shifted as he’s matured.
  • Acknowledges the relief of finally being able to show all sides of himself as a performer.
  • Quote: “The difference about my life at 61 than it's ever been: People get all the different sides of me, which makes it very easy for me to try to grow.” (Bob Saget, [17:40])

Notable Moments

• Comic Structure & Rhythm
  • Saget explains the mechanics of his old jokes, such as the “senator” bit, and how absurdity and rhythm are key to his comedic style. ([15:54]–[16:59])
• Therapy and Personal Growth
  • Admits to therapy helping him mature and approach life—and work—with more gratitude. ([11:30])
• Cultural Impact
  • Saget expresses pride in being a “gatekeeper” for a certain type of family entertainment and recognizes its global influence. ([11:29], [12:17])

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Segment 2: Chuck Klosterman – Remembering the 90s and the Evolution of Consensus

Timestamps: [20:25] – [36:48]

Key Discussion Points & Insights

• The Culture of the 90s: Ephemerality and Appointment Television

  • Klosterman explains how hit shows like Coach were omnipresent but often failed to leave a lasting cultural imprint, illustrating the difference between high viewership and enduring significance.
  • Quote: “They were not taken seriously even by the people who love the show...it was just sort of seen as this thing that was another thing to do to sort of eat up the time that one was experiencing during what was in many ways seen as sort of an underwhelming period to be alive.” (Chuck Klosterman, [23:18])

• Pre-Internet Consensus and the Mandela Effect

  • Describes how, prior to the internet, communal “truths” or misrememberings (like the Mandela Effect) were perpetuated by group consensus.
  • The arrival of the internet enabled easy fact-checking but also changed the nature of disagreement and polarized discussion.
  • Quote: “By the end of the decade...it sort of changed the tenor of conversation. It became much more dangerous...to just sort of offer ideas up, knowing that they could be verified in seconds.” (Chuck Klosterman, [28:13])

• Social Media and the New Nature of Opinion

  • Discussion on the power and pitfalls of sharing strong opinions online, and how digital “parties” (like Twitter) create new dynamics that would be unnatural in real life.
  • Quote: “Can you imagine going to a party and one person is constantly standing on a table yelling political opinions at people? If that's how it was, no one would go to that party... (Chuck Klosterman, [29:48])

• Grunge, Depression, and Generational Identity

  • Examines the seriousness and tragedy that permeated grunge music and how non-musical factors (like artist psychology) shaped the era’s cultural understanding.
  • Quote: “If Kurt Cobain had made the exact same music he did. But every interview they gave, they seemed happy to be there and not oppressed by it would have totally changed...what people would have injected into those records and heard back.” (Chuck Klosterman, [31:16])

• The Value (and Limits) of Strong Opinions

  • Klosterman confesses that, with time, he's become skeptical of unyielding, polemical stances and prefers intellectual humility and clarity in communication.
  • Quote: “I am extremely skeptical of people with strong opinions. I mean, that's probably the biggest thing that...stops me from listening to someone is the sense that their opinions are not balanced, that. That they're driven by...emotions.” (Chuck Klosterman, [33:56])

Notable Moments

• Shift in Klosterman’s Writing Style
  • Klosterman discusses his journey towards clearer, more accessible writing and the paradox of “simple” writing being highly effective yet often undervalued. ([33:56]–[36:37])
• Book Plug
  • The 90s by Chuck Klosterman is referenced as an insightful and fact-packed exploration of the decade’s lingering influence. ([20:25]–[22:12])

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Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• Saget on Entertainment Today:
  “I really have become Liza Minnelli. I just, I. I want to entertain people.”
  (Bob Saget, [10:47])

• On Outrage and Offense:
  “For all the comments that get protested, there are tons of stuff going on either under the radar...So it's all like what we choose to pay attention to.”
  (Mike Pesca, [10:01])

• Klosterman on the 90s:
  “They were not taken seriously even by the people who loved the show themselves...it was just sort of seen as this thing that was another thing to do to sort of eat up the time...”
  (Chuck Klosterman, [23:18])

• On Truth Before and After the Internet:
  “By the end of the decade...it sort of changed the tenor of conversation. It became much more dangerous...to just sort of offer ideas up, knowing that they could be verified in seconds...”
  (Chuck Klosterman, [28:13])

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Flow & Tone

• Witty, candid, self-aware, and frequently introspective
• Both guests embrace vulnerability and humility
• Pesca maintains a quick, lightly irreverent rapport with guests

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Conclusion

• Bob Saget’s interview highlights the challenge and beauty of holding conflicting public personas, reflecting on the seriousness and silliness of comedy, his personal growth, and his ongoing love of entertaining.
• Chuck Klosterman’s appearance navigates the shifts in culture and consensus from the 90s to today, thoughtfully probing the impact of technology, nostalgia, and the value of intellectual humility.
• Throughout, Pesca proves adept at teasing out both the humor and gravity in each guest’s perspective, offering listeners more than just nostalgia—a meditation on how we process the world, and how the world shapes us in turn.

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Transcript

[Mike Pesca]

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[Mike Pesca]

I'm here to tell you about a great Gist offering. It is about the Peska plus feature of our audio subscription plan and with Peska plus you get an Ad free podcast. You also get a lot of bonus content and there are little perks. We run a fantasy league. In the past we've done trivia nights and book clubs and we'll continue to do a bunch a version of all those things I aspire to at least. So go to subscribe.mike pesca.com and if you want to take advantage in our new Laser Focus on Affordability era, use the code Laser Focus. All one word. S is laser doesn't have a Z. It has an S. Use Laser Focus at checkout and you can get Peska plus for only $75. Used to be 89. I think even 8999 people are saying now it's $75 for a yearly subscription. 20 to Pesca Plus. Go to subscribe.mike pesca.com and use the code laser focus all one word. Don't get distracted. Don't write a Z in it. We're not talking about Laser Wolf from Fiddler on the Roof. We're talking about having a laser focus on affordability. Peska Plus. It's Friday, November 28, 2025 from Peach Fish Productions. It's the Gist. I'm Mike Pesca and this is the most unofficial semi official day off in America. And I have to say I'm not taking the day off. I'm thinking perseverating if you will. But I'm thinking about the past a little bit and what I did yesterday and what I want to do today is reach back into our archive for a practical purpose. Well, first of all I want to give you a couple interviews that were great, that were absolutely two of my favorites, but they've been lost not to time, but to the technicalities of getting them up and trying to find. I guess no one ever expected podcasts to be a decade or even eight years old in some cases. So we've had some struggle getting these to you. And what we do is I have a way to get them and to play them. And if we play them today or tomorrow or yesterday as we did, they become new episodes and everyone could hear them. So first we're going to start with the late great Bob Saget. Oh, we got along so well. The title of this episode is Bob Saget doesn't think he's that raunchy, which I don't know if it's true. He had a conception of himself as mostly a nice guy and the people who knew him, I mean when he died, the outpouring was massive and sincere and I think this was I had one or two interactions with him other than this, and they were always lovely. And I think you will enjoy hearing Bob Saget as both a dirty comic but that lovely cuddly sitcom dad. There are many elements of that to Bob Saget. So enjoy. And then after the break I think I will play a great Chuck Klosterman interview for you. I sometimes struggle to find gifts to give for my mom and dad especially. But now I have great idea because I've been using Cove Pure. Cove Pure is a way to get without fancy hookups. Get great water, great tasting water and water that is as half of the name implies or flat out promises, pure. It makes your water taste very, very good. Pure, clean, no aftertaste. But sometimes it gets those contaminants. Slash floaties down to single digits. It's lab certified to remove 99.9 of contaminants from your water. That includes stuff like PFAS and pharmaceuticals, fluoride, lead, arsenic. The purest water you could get and so easy to install. Fits right on the countertop. Looks great doing so. So if you're looking for a gift that's good for your loved ones and one they will actually use, I highly recommend Cove Pure. And because I have partnered with them, they're giving you a special choose $250 holiday discount with my link cove pure.com/the gist that C O V E p u r e.com/the gist to get $250 off cove pure.com/the gist Hurry before the sale ends for everyone who solves crime from their couch.

[Bob Saget]

Knows more about forensics than their own.

[Mike Pesca]

Job and has trust issues with small town sheriffs. Amazon Music's millions of podcast episodes are calling. Just download the Amazon music app and start listening to your favorite true crime podcasts ad free included with Prime. Bob Saget, He's a noted actor, comedian. He was on this sitcom once. According to his credits full something not really familiar with that piece of work.

[Bob Saget]

Exactly.

[Mike Pesca]

He is now out with a new special and we're going to talk about his whole career and where he and comedy stands right now. Hello, Bob. How are you?

[Bob Saget]

I'm really good. I feel like we haven't talked until this moment.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, yeah. It feels like we just sat down and I started reading an intro and you were like, this is not normal human conversation, but I'll go for it.

[Bob Saget]

I like it. I like it. I'm a pro. This is not my first rodeo. That's actually the first thing we said to each other.

[Mike Pesca]

I like the idea of callbacks to things that the audience can't possibly guess.

[Bob Saget]

Well, that's what I love about Carson and Letterman. You got a lot of something happened right before they would say, oh, that lady in the fifth row, that woman from Des Moines. And it was literally for the studio audience, you know?

[Mike Pesca]

Right. Letterman will say, I don't know, maybe you're a podiatrist from Dubuque. And the audience goes crazy like, is this funny? I don't understand.

[Bob Saget]

We'll find out more from Mary later. And Mary only talks during commercial breaks. Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

So I want to ask you about a specific joke and you would say it often when you would do panel on talk shows, there'd be a string of rapid fire jokes that made sense to me. And then you would say and tell me if I'm getting it wrong. My mother's pokey, my father's Gumby and I'm a Winnebago now.

[Bob Saget]

You're so close and it's amazing. No, you didn't know. You're on it. You're on it. You're honoring me to a point you wouldn't know. My first five minutes I wrote in a law library in Cornell because my girlfriend who became my ex wife. Yeah, well, being my wife. Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

There's a period in between.

[Bob Saget]

No, we actually cut out the middle. So we just went right to ex wife.

[Mike Pesca]

That's good. Yeah, it's easy.

[Bob Saget]

There's no prenup.

[Mike Pesca]

But yeah, during the dating experience, just, you know, give her 20 and move on.

[Bob Saget]

Yeah, that was. Oh, oh, if I dreaming. Oh, what's 20 mean? That was the dating age. After we Left each other. But that was 20 years ago. We got divorced. More than that. We have three beautiful kids. I have a fiance now. First. First time. That means something wonderful to me. In my six relationships. I'm a pretty noble guy, actually. As much as I. And that's where the bawdiness comes from.

[Mike Pesca]

You gotta get someone else to say that, though. That's the problem.

[Bob Saget]

No. Yeah. Because it means I'm guilty.

[Mike Pesca]

You know what, Bob? He's a pretty noble guy.

[Bob Saget]

Okay, I've done things. It's weird to talk about yourself and say it is kind of wrong to go, I'm a good guy. I'm a noble guy. You know, but that can bite you in the butt. Cause you're saying I've never done anything. And I've done some dumb things. I wrote a book called Dirty Daddy and in it I had a chapter Relationships Rather not Talk about. And another one called Things I shouldn't have Done. And that's like drunk driving and stuff. And that you don't do. You can kill people. But we're in a world right now where misogyny is. It all started with the grab on Access Hollywood and it kind of became this male howling at the moon. And how guys can have this locker room talk. And it ain't locker room talk. Because there are people that follow through that have problems. But I can't say anybody's done in this world when our president is Donald Trump, because he's been finished many times. He's been bankrupt, he's come back and he's the President of the United States. And there's probably stuff on him that is just completely smeared over that we don't know about. There's probably stuff on a ton of people. I mean, we're finding out right now people that are out criticizing people and they've got a 14 year old boy in their closet and he's next to a steamer. So at least she's not wrinkled. See, that's not an appropriate joke.

[Mike Pesca]

That would be wrong. But my laughter.

[Bob Saget]

If you quote that, it's disgusting. If you say it and someone hears it, they could go, I'm not listening to this crap. Or oh, he didn't mean anything by that because he's just trying to get through it.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, but what you laid out, it just means I've now had a third of the audience of what I started. Just so you know.

[Bob Saget]

Do you think so?

[Mike Pesca]

No, I don't. But I mean, I watch. One of my favorite choices are not listen, protest, or keep listening.

[Bob Saget]

I'm not even that dirty. I was watching a Family Guy in South park recently. It's like the same tone. Yeah, it's just, you know, I had one joke about a. I gotta be careful here. But I had one joke in the special, which is true. I was like, in Canada, in Winnipeg, and I had a medical problem and it was frozen and it was in my posterior. And I'm saying that it broke off because it was so cold and that a squirrel got a hold of it. Now, that's kind of a PG13 thing, what I just said. But. And then some people said, you can't say that. That's terrible. That's filthy.

[Mike Pesca]

The answer to that, if it could fly, has a lot to do with the framing and the format. Because for all I'm not talk. Talking about actual physical, tangible transgressions. Louis, Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein. I'm talking about people getting upset at remarks.

[Bob Saget]

What did Harvey do?

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, just everything. Like, imagine it. It was all of it. My point is that for all the comments that get protested, there are tons of stuff going on either under the radar or on morning radio or on the podcast I listen to or in certain genres of speech or movies that no one gives a damn about. So it's all like what we choose to pay attention to. And to some extent, we're primed to get a little upset. Certain segments of our society get off on that.

[Bob Saget]

I could use somebody not making fun of other people. That's what I could use. And I know that there's people that are evil in the world that want to hurt people, but we shouldn't be those people. We're here to unify and have a good time. And if you don't want it, you can get your money back and I'm sorry. And take off because I'm not going to have a fight. I'm not going to. I just want to have a good time. I really have become Liza Minnelli. I just, I. I want to entertain people.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I really, really do.

[Bob Saget]

And I think.

[Mike Pesca]

And they look to you for a catharsis. I am providing.

[Bob Saget]

This is the weird part, and you mentioned it at the top. I was Danny Tanner while I was doing the. The video show and. Which is before YouTube, which meant if you wanted to see someone get hit in the nuts, you had to go through me. Not even on sports.

[Mike Pesca]

You're the gatekeeper.

[Bob Saget]

I was the gatekeeper of Bloober ball hits. And I am proud of that. And I'm proud of. But you're not proud of it. While you're working 90 hours a week, making a lot of money complaining, which is. Who wants to know that person? Yeah, not me. So I went through a lot of therapy and grew up. You know, actors complain if they're working or not working. Yes, I try not to when I'm working because I've been on the other side. It's not my first rodeo. That's the catchphrase for this interview.

[Mike Pesca]

So you do, you do these two shows that are absolutely beloved, but obviously we know where your comedy is and the comedy you want to be doing. And we know the level of comedy on those shows, which isn't to say it's bad, it's just pitched to a different audience and not one you're totally into. Do you think that took a little out of you beyond the 90 hours? The fact that you were giving so much to this art form that wasn't exactly what you wanted?

[Bob Saget]

All the fun that I had was in both shows. There was a lot of fun to be had. The stuff in between, a lot of the dialogue just playing and acting crazy, Acting like nine year old boys. Dave, John and I had a really good time. And that's why there's love between the kids and us. There's just pure love. Love. I'm here in New York, I'm gonna see Ashley, I wanna see Mary Kate, you know, I mean, and they're not on the show. Oh, big news story. You know, it's a. The show was made for 14 year old girls. It wasn't meant for 50 year old critics to say, I don't like this show. You know, it wasn't, it's not that show. It was a two dimensional show with morality plays that were necessary for a lot of people. More people know me from that, I think, around the world. We just went to Japan. I mean, it's all over the world than anything because they grew up watching it. There was sometimes a certain hipness to it. Something weird was going on between the lines. But it was pretty much, you know, don't bring a horse in the living room, don't drink beer at the prom. Music comes in on synthesizers and people think I'm like that character. And I wanted to be a clean freak and I wanted to hug people, but I didn't want. Or wear cardigan sweaters, which someone who's very guilty wore them all the time. And how can I be cynical or not appreciative of when a mother comes up to me and says, I raised my kids by myself because my husband left or Died. And same with fathers saying it about my wife died. And they said, you helped me talk to my kids. You opened up issues. And they weren't the issues from the show, because some of ours were a little lame, but some of them were very real. Like, mom died came up. And we talked about it.

[Mike Pesca]

But I bet none of those families brought a horse into the house either.

[Bob Saget]

No, they didn't. And that horse became fodder for a lot of inappropriate humor. Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

And then he became glue.

[Bob Saget]

He did. No, never glued him. No animals were harmed permanently. Only during the shooting. People say to me, before a show, before a special, before anything, are you gonna be funny tonight? And that's. Don't say that to a comedian. It's like saying to your pilot, are you gonna get me to Cleveland? It's like saying to your brain surgeon, am I dead? You know, are you gonna. I don't know. Let me just work on your brain. So, yeah, I've been doing this.

[Mike Pesca]

Did you tune that guitar, Bruce? Yeah, right. I think I was.

[Bob Saget]

Or people always say, do you have a tuner? It's like, I got a phone, I got a tuner. So I've been doing stand up since I'm 17. So, I mean, that's crazy. 43 years of standup is nuts.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Bob Saget]

And I did more stories in zero to 60 than I ever done. Zero to 60 means I've gone from zero years old to 60 years old. And then I got the remake ripoff of the north by Northwest poster. This was the first time it's ever been released this way. This is not a Netflix show. It's on itunes and Amazon in a big way. You know, they're putting banner ads and all that crap. Yeah. But it's also on Google Play and AT&T. It's on over a hundred. Whatever the platforms.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Bob Saget]

All over the world. So there is no way to avoid it if you want to see it.

[Mike Pesca]

Even in Canada.

[Bob Saget]

Even in Canada. That's the thing I got to fix. Because somebody said, I can't get it in Canada. You know you're doing. My joke is. You know you're doing my joke is. That's a comedian. I have said before.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, you don't want to say it in conversations and pretend this is just something that's flowing out of you naturally.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Right.

[Mike Pesca]

Quote the great Bob Saget. Bob Saget.

[Bob Saget]

And you gotta say it in third person. I say it myself to quote the great Bob Saget. And then it's. Then I'm talking in third person.

[Mike Pesca]

But if you're actually on stage, you say just happened to me or just on the way over. It's these. It's 180 degrees of truth.

[Bob Saget]

You do however say I just flew in from. That is never a lie. I just got in from. And I couldn't believe it. That the turbulence and the bathroom and the people and this baby and. Okay, enough. We know you travel.

[Mike Pesca]

So Bob, you're sitting in the Cornell Law library.

[Bob Saget]

Yep.

[Mike Pesca]

And here we get back to why.

[Bob Saget]

Is first joke not a joke?

[Mike Pesca]

Yes.

[Bob Saget]

So the first thing that I said in the law library was I have no friends and I have no life and I live in a moped. And that is nothing but rhythm.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes.

[Bob Saget]

And absurdity. I had no friends growing up. I moved from. I did have friends. That's not true. But all of my energy wasn't into friendships. I didn't have parties, I didn't go to parties. I went to one concert. It was like complete nerd burglar. And then at 22 in LA, I just kind of let it rip and just became part of that early 80s scene with all these people. So I was like a kid that went to Pleasure island rather than go to my graduate school at usc, which would have made me a horror director by. Yeah, 20 years ago. But. But it was all worth it because I kept doing so many different things. And then I came up with jokes that were way ahead of their time at about 18 that were in the area we're in now. There was a senator that was in the newspaper and I was sometimes topical because I was so outraged. So I would go into absurdity. There was a senator who had allegedly had relations with a 14 year old boy. And that just sounds a little familiar right now. And my joke was I was 18. My mother never let me go to camp as a kid cause she thought I'd get embarrassed undressing in front of little boys. But I've changed a lot. Cause I kind of like it now. And then I said that's not true, I like it a lot. And then I said that's not true, I'm not a senator. So it got to a relevant place. And as a three stepper, I always would do three step jokes. And now I just kind of go set up joke. You know, Bob, there's a middle step. No, I'm sorry. I work alone so I get more jokes crammed in in an hour.

[Mike Pesca]

But you have to bust that. Those jokes, you can't open a set with them. They have to get to know you a little bit.

[Bob Saget]

Yeah. And that's the advantage. That's the difference about my life at 61 than it's ever been. People get all the different sides of me, which makes it very easy for me to try to grow. And now the stepping off point for me, zero to 60 is a special I wish I'd done 25 years ago.

[Mike Pesca]

So that I the name wouldn't have made sense.

[Bob Saget]

No, but 0 to 40 because secret to life is 42 according to the.

[Mike Pesca]

Life, the universe and everything.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Oh.

[Bob Saget]

Oh, such good stuff. Really good. And it was for me. Unfortunately, though I got divorced around then so that it was complicated. But I guess it's when you go, aha. I want this to be different. And it was the right. Nothing's ever right. Things always hurt, but you get through them. And comedy has been the audience has been my friend. It's a true relationship. And Seinfeld says it pretty eloquently. You know, it's a discourse.

[Mike Pesca]

Bob Saget's new special 0 to 60, is apparently on every platform in America, Canada and throughout the world. Thank you so much. Great to meet you.

[Bob Saget]

Really great to meet you. I'll see you at your home later.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, good, thanks.

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[Mike Pesca]

Oh hey. Welcome to gift wrapping.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Whoa.

[Mike Pesca]

So is Saldana.

[AT&T Mobile Representative]

Hey, can you wrap these please?

[Bob Saget]

Wow. IPhone 17s.

[Mike Pesca]

You splurged.

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[Mike Pesca]

I'm the worst. I only got my mom a robe.

[AT&T Mobile Representative]

Well, it's better than socks.

[Bob Saget]

So I have to trade in my old phone, right?

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[Mike Pesca]

Incredible.

[AT&T Mobile Representative]

In fact, wrap up my old phone too for my Aunt Rosa.

[Bob Saget]

Forget that.

[AT&T Mobile Representative]

Aunt Liz will be jealous.

[Mike Pesca]

Sounds like my family drama.

[AT&T Mobile Representative]

Oh, I got it. I'll give it to my abuela. I'll take reindeer paper with. Hey, where are you going?

[Mike Pesca]

To divorce.

[Bob Saget]

T Mobile.

[Chuck Klosterman]

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[Mike Pesca]

The next interview I want to play is with Chuck Klosterman. And he's been on the show many, many times. And the first time he was on was June of 2016. And he wrote a book, as Chuck always does, called what if We're Wrong. And it was a great food for thought experience. And since then we've had an excellent relationship which goes like this. He writes a book, I read the book, I say, do you want to come on? And we have a conversation that goes over an hour that we struggle to cut to a half hour. This was the first of those. Chuck Klosterman is wrong. He says about his book that challenges assumptions about the present and the future. In 1997, fax sales exceeded a billion dollars. Fax machines, remember those? The only time they were over a billion dollars. David Kaczynski's first time ever in using the Internet was to look up a long document that he had. The growing realization was written by his brother Ted. It was the Unabomber's manifesto tab. Clear existed. These are three facts from Chuck Klosterman's new book, the 90s. A book. It is indeed a book and quite a book. And I wanted to get some of the facts in front of you because there were so many revelations, facts, things I forgot, things I didn't know that were powerful and amusing and thought provoking. But I think in this conversation, it's not going to be a recitation, recitation of facts. We're going to talk about the implications and the theories and all the things that Chuck mulled over about what the 90s and remembering an era meant to us. But I just needed to point out there are some great facts and great sentences in this book. Chuck, welcome back to the gist.

[Chuck Klosterman]

It's good to be here.

[Mike Pesca]

What was. I'll start with a trivia question. What was the number one show, the number one sitcom in the 90s in terms of. Of episodes that ran entirely in the 90s sitcom?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Okay, that's an interesting question. So it had to have been something that started early and ended late. What is it?

[Mike Pesca]

You're so. The answer is coach.

[Bob Saget]

Coach.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, which and why? That's interesting is Coach was the sort of show that was probably cumulatively watched by well over a billion people, right? 200 episodes.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

Like so many people had some sort of relationship with Coach only what did it matter? Or did it matter? And it was like a lot of shows or pieces of culture that people had a relationship with that I don't even know if they seem significant. They at least took up a lot of their time and yet in retrospect, almost didn't exist. And you write about that, especially with tv, but with other things.

[Bob Saget]

Things.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, I, I, I feel like one of the key differences from the period we're in now, and that period, at least in terms of cultural differences, wasn't just what was on television, but the place that it occupied in the culture that it was. I, it was definitely perceived as sort of what you did when there was nothing else to do. The idea of it really being something like appointment television or prestige television, those would have been sort of seen as ludicrous ideas almost. I mean, when people would need the very first people who argued that, you know, maybe television is as good as film. Now that was seen as like, like what we would now describe as like a hot take. It was the assumption was that nobody really seriously thought that. I mean, you know, when the Sopranos came on, that's when you start hearing people say that and trying to make kind of a cogent argument as to why. But the thing like a show like Coach or so many TV shows from that period where the viewership was technically massive, when we look back on these numbers, and they were not taken seriously even by the people who love the show themselves, like it was, it was just sort of seen as this thing that was another thing to do to sort of eat up the time that one was experiencing during what was in many ways seen as sort of an underwhelming period to be alive, I think, and I think television reflected that.

[Mike Pesca]

You know, I've read, I read Halberstam's the 50s and of course Halberstam's both a great sports writer and a great writer of, you know, non sports, nonfiction, Vietnam culture. But for the most part, the people who will examine the culture, sometimes you get the sense that they couldn't even name three pro athletes. But let me just compliment you on a point you made and so the listeners will understand. You talk about the era of college football before there was a unified national champion, before back when you could kind of debate who is the national champion? And I'm entirely convinced that it was entirely in keeping with, with the ethos of the 90s, and that after, you know, it predated that, too. But after the 90s and again after the Internet and after all the people who were maybe angry or wanted reform, that's a great encapsulation of the people who defend the Internet and the people who decry the Internet, but all the people with strong opinions about this were going to be unified on the Internet. It would become impossible, in fact, it did become impossible for college football to just skate along on this idea of, well, maybe I'll have my national champion and you have your national champion, and there I'll never be a national champion. So what I'm saying is it's entirely appropriate to this book and this decade that you cited that as an example that exemplified the 90s.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, I, you know, I appreciate you saying that, because the thing I wrote about college football, it's only like four or five pages, but I did consciously place it right in front of the very long section on the Internet, because what college football was prior to, you know, kind of the end of that decade was something where not having a clear understanding was kind of baked into it and was a totally okay thing. Like, it was, I, it was, it was a completely acceptable thing to argue about whether or not, you know, this mythical championship mattered. And, and there was a certain cachet to not being the champion. If you had as good a season as the team who won the national title and you finished second, you could almost make the argument that, right, this was better or whatever. And in some ways, the Internet represented the same thing. Like, you know, I, I, I talk about this period of time when, if, you know, I talk about the Mandela effect, which I'm sure a lot of people listening to this are aware of this idea that there are these kind of collective misrememberings of, like, when Nelson Mandela died or, or was Sinbad in a movie about a genie that he wasn't. But many people remember seeing all of these things from the early 90s.

[Mike Pesca]

Two, two things with pretty much equivalent stakes.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah, well, they're just, those are the, the examples people are most familiar with. The other, the big thing also is, like, oh, household products, how they're actually spelled. You know, how was there? Where's the punctuation? All of these things that if, if a discussion was happening about these things anecdotally, it came up kind of at random in a bar, say, in 1992, the consensus of the table sort of became its own kind of reality that people were comfortable accepting, you know, If a bunch of people at the table insist that Nelson Mandela died, and a couple of them are like, I saw the state funeral on Nightline. I remember that, or whatever, people would leave the bar kind of being like, well, I guess maybe that's the case, you know.

[Bob Saget]

Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

By the end of the decade, where you could pull your phone out and sort of prove whether or not this was true, not only did that allow these people to have this information in a real way, it sort of changed the tenor of conversation. It became much more dangerous. Maybe is a loaded word, but problematic to sort of speak off the cuff and to just sort of offer ideas up, knowing that they could be verified in seconds by the person sitting across from you.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, yeah. I mean, a current trend that you write about is obviously political partisanship, but hating people with different opinions. And maybe because in the 90s, there was less of a way to put your finger on what was the actual fact. So the arguments weren't, well, I'm clearly right and you're clearly wrong, and we could prove it thanks to the magic machines in our pockets. Right. It was a little more humility. All right? From what I know, I think I might be right. And that could apply to facts or that could extend to all manner of opinion. But now, no, I'm clearly right, you're clearly wrong. It says so right here. You're an idiot. I can't listen to you.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, you see, I kind of suspect that maybe internally, a lot of the things we see on social media had always been in people's minds. Like, people's reaction to the news and other things had been the same way it is now. But there was no vessel for that. Right. The only vessel for it was to literally say it to someone. And no one's going it to do.

[Bob Saget]

Do that.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I mean, it's really funny when, like, Twitter was new and, you know, they were. People say like, oh, well, you know, it's. It's kind of like a party. You know, it's kind of like a. You know, it's like a.

[Mike Pesca]

It's like.

[Chuck Klosterman]

It's like a town hall or whatever, or like a town square. But, like, can you imagine going to a party and one person is constantly standing on a table yelling political opinions at people like that? Like, if that's how it was, no one would go to that party, and that individual would probably not leave the party walking.

[Mike Pesca]

And half of the party would be participants screaming to the host, you have to ban him from the party. Yeah, yeah. Or have the participants saying, how dare a Host ban anyone from a party.

[Chuck Klosterman]

And then people complaining about the party while they're there, constantly spending the entire party saying how this party is a hellscape. You know, they're all these things like if they happened in reality, like it would be a completely different world. So, you know, it's some of this, these like the polarization we talk about, it's just that it's like a visible polarization. Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

You and I were very influenced by Nirvana and Kurt Cobain and he had a specific type of personality, as we all do. But as I look at it, it was very much informed by the fact that he was depressed and probably clinically depressed. So my question is if, if Kurt Cobain wasn't clinically depressed, I guess going to be hard to untangle the musical achievements. But I'm certainly, I subscribe in general to the notion that depression doesn't make you a better artist. In fact, it sometimes gets in the way. So if Kurt Cobain weren't clinically depressed or had his depression properly treated, how different would the 90s have been?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, I mean, yeah, this is looking at grunge in general now. Obviously Nirvana is the highest profile kind of member of this fraternity or whatever. It's like. But when you look at grunge and how, how much death became intertwined with this genre, I mean, it's like not just Kurt Cobain, but then the suicide of, you know, Chris Cornell much later and two drug deaths and Alice in Chains and there was just like Mark Lanegan just died. You know, there, there was a seriousness to grunge that was contradicted by sort of the way the bands looked, the way they banned the bands acted. They wouldn't give a serious interview. They didn't seem to take themselves seriously. But because they didn't take themselves seriously, it suggested they were taking the music more seriously. You know, I write about Nevermind a lot about this and I see people review this book and they're like, he's claiming Nevermind mattered more than like, you know, the unification of Germany. Even though I say the exact opposite of that in the book. My point about this is that it is not the record that mattered so much. Even though it did matter and it was great. It was the non musical impact he had on what became the way to understand young people. So if you look at a band like Nirvana or like in a smaller sense, like a band like Fugazi or whatever, these bands were significant not for the music they made, but for these non musical reasons. So if Kurt Cobain had made the exact same music he did. But every interview they gave, they seemed happy to be there and not oppressed by it would have totally changed the. What, like what people would have injected into those records and heard back. It was, it was very exciting to think about Nirvana and then listen to the music in a way that you didn't normally experience because it seemed as though they were almost trying to kind of explain to people how you're supposed to feel, you know?

[Mike Pesca]

Right. So I've read, I think, well, almost all your books, and at least lately you have a habit, which is, I think, a good one, of acknowledging maybe I'm wrong. I am a product of this time. Maybe I'd see things differently if circumstances change. So you have a lot of humility and I think, knowledge of how much to hold on to an opinion, but also your opinions have changed. As someone who thinks about things, your opinions definitely have changed. Maybe your principles have changed. Is there a through line with the sort of opinions or even better principles that you have found malleable within yourself and a through line with those that you've stuck to, even if they've, you know, been assailed by other critics or new circumstance?

[Bob Saget]

Hmm.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, one thing that, that, that is. Is absolutely true is that commercially people prefer polemics, that they, they, they, they. They want people to have inflexible, aggressive opinions. And I think when I was younger, I agreed with that, and that's kind of how I was. And that has changed. That's definitely changed in me over time in the sense that I am extremely skeptical of people with strong opinions. I mean, that's probably the biggest thing that, that stops me from listening to someone is the sense that their opinions are not balanced, that. That they're driven by these kind of emotions that they have, and they're using their intellect basically to support their emotions. So that maybe that's maybe one thing that has changed about me. I think in a lot of ways, like, I'm a much better writer now than I was when I was younger. Like, almost sort of. It's a weird thing, almost embarrassingly so. I feel like that, that, that maybe I didn't start figuring out really how to do this till I was like, midway into my 30s or whatever, you know. But at the same time, I recognize that what people like very often, especially about the early books, is they feel like this is a real person talking to me. Like, this is not somebody who sat down and thought about this sentence 50 times. This is somebody who wrote this sentence and published it. You know, when you're young and you read something that's, like, really dense and complicated, and it requires all this cognitive dissonance. And like this, it almost seems like the sentence itself is a contradiction, and you got to read it four times to understand it. When you're young, you're like, oh, that person must be real smart. Like, they must be smarter than me. This must be great. And then when you get older, you realize that that's bad writing, that writing is a communicative art, and that you're trying to communicate ideas. So now when I work on books, I, you know, I, I, I edit them a lot, pretty compulsively, I think, to the irritation maybe of my own editor at times. I mean, I will, I, I would, if I could, I would work on one book for the rest of my life and have it never come out. I would just keep rewriting it over and over and over again, you know, and what the main thing I'm doing is straightening it, just making it as clear as possible. Like, you know, and the thing is, there's like, if you go too far with that, then it starts having this interesting effect where people are like, well, anybody could do this. You know, it's like a baby could do this or whatever, you know? But that's sort of the goal, to make the person reading the book feel like they're writing it with their mind.

[Mike Pesca]

Chuck Klosterman. His life goals are one book written forever that no one reads. But in the. But in the current and in the present, he is out with the 90s. Chuck's in. Thanks so much.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Thanks for having me on.

[Mike Pesca]

And that's it for today's show. Cory Warra produces the Gist. Michelle Pesca. I'll list her next. First in my heart, she is the COO of Peach Fish Productions. And then there's Jeff Craig. He oversees all of our socials. And Kathleen Sykes very much helps me with the Gist list. Noom Peru. G. Peru. Do Peru. Thanks for listening.

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