Tony de Coppol (3:23)

They are already trying to spin this as an action of self defense. Having seen the video of myself, I want to tell everybody directly that is bullshit. This was an agent recklessly using power that resulted in somebody dying to ice. Get the fuck out of Minneapolis.

Mike Pesca (3:49)

And while the footage I have seen I'm sure others that will soon surface. While it's all horrific and while the facts are incomplete, it is difficult based on what we know on established use of force law to say with confidence that the shooting will ultimately be deemed illegal or unlawful. I don't know how it will be judged. Here are some factors. Minneapolis and nearby Brooklyn center are jurisdictions that have convicted officers in fatal shootings where other cities and other jury pools might not have. At the same time we know that from across the country from Ohio to North Carolina, officers have been exonerated after fatal shootings into vehicles when the vehicles were rolling towards them. And that fact has seemed decisive and that is the state of the law. What is not the state of reality is the rhetoric we heard from DHS afterwards. Claims about rioters and a vehicle being weaponized about officers firing for the safety of the public. There was quite clearly one life on the line in this incident and that life belonged to the 37 year old woman who is now dead. On the show today, a debut of what is sure to become a sad recurring segment. Let's parse what Tony decouple said. But first Brad Meltzer is the master of the historic, you might say civics minded thriller. What a genre. He uniquely has knowledge of government agencies and he takes this knowledge, he takes this gold and he spins it into tells that in source all us all. He is out now with another Zig and Nola novel and this one is called the Viper. Brad Meltzer up next. You know why we make New Year's resolutions? Well it's because what we did in December kind of destroyed us. All those holiday parties and the skipped workouts and maybe some late nights decorating the tree so you know you have to get a bit healthier and maybe you're thinking things like, uh, gym or, uh, sleep. That's hard. 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See website for details, restrictions and important safety information. Actual price will depend on product and subscription plan. Brad Meltzer is back. He's been here many times before, in fact, with a book that is in the Zig and Nola novel series as his current work is. Zig is a mortician classic trope in mystery novels. Nola is an artist. They team up or don't or do so under duress to solve crimes. And the latest crime thriller is called the Viper. Brad, welcome back to the gist.

Brad Meltzer (9:58)

Good to be back, my friend.

Mike Pesca (9:59)

So in the Maltese Falcon, I think they established what the Falcon is very early on and it either it's not really a MacGuffin, it really exists. But what about the Viper? How long until we learn what the Viper is? Is this setting a record?

Brad Meltzer (10:12)

This may be my record for it. I can't ruin the ending for it because it obviously ruins the biggest surprise of the book. And it shows you one thing. I don't give a crap what the title is. I really don't. I do not care. I will say is the last thing I do. I will write 350 pages and not have a title on that book and then just throw out ones that are like until the publisher says we like that one, it means nothing to me. A title is just something to hook you in to get you to read it. And if that works, great. And the same thing was true in the Lightning Rod. The only title I think I've ever. I think it was the Millionaires. We liked one that was one that we had, but it was the Escape Artist was the only one that I was like, this is the title for the book. It's meant to be. It's about Houdini. It's the Escape Artist. Let's go. But after that I don't care. I just like the name the Viper. And I was like, I'm using it.

Mike Pesca (11:07)

It'S kind of clear.

Brad Meltzer (11:09)

And it's clear. It's so cool. Did you get reaction like, okay, see what it is?

Mike Pesca (11:12)

Is it, like, loving the book, loving the characters, but why is it called the Viper? Did you get any of that?

Brad Meltzer (11:17)

Think about it. Think about what the reveal is at the end. It's the most important character who's introduced in the book, and especially to our lead. But when you hear the word the Viper, of course. What do you think? Oh, the villains coming. They've got to have a knife and a candlestick and they're in, you know, Colonel Mustard, like, it's. And that's not me, that's you. Right. Like, that's. That's the setup. But I love. Hey, I thought for sure, by the way, you were going to go with the Breakfast Club because I thought that was gonna be your lane way faster. But, yeah, the Viper was. You can see all. All of my. My lack of care about titles on display.

Mike Pesca (11:50)

Well, members of the Breakfast Club who were pals in high school or the central group in the book now, this brings up another question. There's all sorts of pop culture references, a lot of hall and Oats, just occasional references to Star wars and the Breakfast Club. Are there any rules in writing novels about. There are rules about copyright and trademarks. You can't even quote more than. What is it, like, two lines of lyrics?

Brad Meltzer (12:20)

Yeah, fair use is a couple lines.

Mike Pesca (12:21)

Right. But in terms of just making references to pop culture, if this were a movie, you'd have to get the rights. But in a book, that is not the law.

Brad Meltzer (12:31)

Well, I will tell you as a lawyer trains, but know nothing about it anymore. I learned the hard way. This. My second book comes out was 20 years ago, and I get this letter in the mail, back in the mail days, and it says, dear Brad, I have good news and bad news for you. The good news is I've read and loved your. Your new book. I'm a new author, so I can't even get anyone to write about it. Is amazing to me. And in the book I had. There's a. There's a scene where the characters do, like an Ethel Merman thing. And they're like, you know. And they're jokingly go in the elevator. Yeah, you know, we'll swell. We great. And have the whole world on our plate. And they go, everything's. And as the elevator doors close, they go, yeah, yeah, yeah, everything's coming up roses. And it says that the next part of the letter says, the bad news is I represent the Estate of whoever originally wrote that song, and you now owe us $10,000. And I was like, are you kidding me? And I was like, just graduated law school. I still had debt to pay off from law school. And the only thing that was very nice about them is I. You know, and this also tells you how the law works. I called them up. I'm like. I'm like, dude, are you kidding me? I'm like, that's, you know, so much money. And they said, you know what? Just send us $1,000. We just like the book. And thanks, really. And. And. And I learned my lesson there about how many lines you're able to quote in a book, which is why you always see so few.

Mike Pesca (13:49)

But is it. It would be Sondheim, right? Isn't it Gypsy? Everything's coming up roses.

Brad Meltzer (13:54)

I don't even remember anymore, but I think Sondheim sounds right. That does.

Mike Pesca (13:57)

Sondheim. Yeah, it was Sondheim.

Brad Meltzer (13:59)

It was an ASCAP lawyer that I remember wrote to me.

Mike Pesca (14:01)

And.

Brad Meltzer (14:01)

Crazy. But. But to answer your question, you know, it all depends. Like, when we do our kids books, I can write whatever I want about Walt Disney. I don't need any. Any. Okay. But if I show Mickey Mouse now, it's a trademark. That's different. So if I want to show Mickey or show Luke Skywalker, you know, then we have a different story. But if I want to just describe something or use a line or. Or, you know, whatever the. Like you do with all your friends, then, you know, fair use and let the lawyers protect me from that.

Mike Pesca (14:31)

So maybe this is just a trick of memory, but you, in your series for kids, wrote a small biography of Jim Henson. I remember somehow Kermit being implied.

Brad Meltzer (14:42)

Oh, he's on the COVID Yeah.

Mike Pesca (14:43)

So how'd Kermit get on the COVID Exactly. That's what I remember.

Brad Meltzer (14:46)

Because. Because Cheryl Henson, who's amazing, was like, we love these books, and let me help you. And the same thing with. When we did I Am Walt Disney, the Walt Disney Corporation was like, we like these kids books. We're going to help you. And that's how we got to do I am Superman. I am Batman. We even did, like, you know, fictional ones, but. Yeah, no, those. Those had to be cleared. Every one of those had to be cleared.

Mike Pesca (15:07)

Oh, and they didn't demand king's ransom or a frog's ransom.

Brad Meltzer (15:11)

You know what? They. They. They didn't. They didn't. Which was amazing. The Superman. Batman was a licensing part that had a. That had a number in there. Yeah. But for the thrillers. I just truly rely on that old Sondheim experience to be like, careful what you quote and do not get bills in the mail. That's the goal of the book. That's pretty much the only goal of the book, I think, at this point is, like, do not get bills in the mail.

Mike Pesca (15:34)

So they've made a lot of TV shows. You've made a lot of TV shows about your nonfiction work. What of your fiction has been turned into TV or movies?

Brad Meltzer (15:43)

Nothing. Not. What happened was, is we. We sold the rights to my very first book outright, and then we sold another book outright, and those two books sit on Hollywood shelves doing nothing but collecting dust. And I said to myself, I will never make that mistake again. So when I make. I mean, we've made plenty of deals. We have a couple of deals now that are going for some of our books, but they all are. I do them with the people that I think are really amazing and. Because I want to work with them. But I. I really do not like having. You know, I get calls on the 10th justice all the time. I've been at this long enough now where I think it's a couple more years and the rights actually revert back to me. That's how long they've been sitting on those shelves.

Mike Pesca (16:29)

Because these books don't seem like the type to defy being adapted. I'm surprised. What I'm saying is I'm surprised at it. They.

Brad Meltzer (16:40)

The.

Mike Pesca (16:40)

The genre is hot. These streamers need content. Look at how popular the Knives out series have been. I mean, people. I would think people would be dying to.

Brad Meltzer (16:51)

What you are really asking is, why do your agents suck so much, Brad? That's what you're saying.

Mike Pesca (16:56)

Maybe they drive a hard enough bargain.

Brad Meltzer (16:58)

At WME right now. You hear you're being called out by my buddy Mike. No, I mean, listen, I agree with you. And we talk there. There are screenwriters right now who are working on Zig and Nola who are like, you know what? Let's just take it out on spec, as we love this. And I'. That's a more interesting way to do it with me. And I'm just. These are my. These are my favorite characters I've ever worked on. So I'm not anxious to. When I was 22 years old and I can get a $5,000 option and get my name in the, you know, some trade magazine. I thought that was cool. Now I'm like, I don't want to do that. I want to make sure I'm working with writers Who I think can handle it. You know, I have a behind me an entire stack of terrible scripts that have been written about my books. There's one where like I remember there was a scene in my very first book where they go to. The characters go to Boston. They and they're working the Supreme Court and they go home for a weekend to Boston. And it's just in the book, it's just a character based moment. It has nothing to do with the plot. It doesn't do anything to move it along. It's just to show you where they're from. Show you what they're built, how they're built. And I'm like, there's no way the movie is going to keep the scene. And the screenwriter sends me the script so proudly. And I'm reading the script. And when you read a script of your own novel, it's the only time you read your own book and you go like, wow, I wonder what's going to happen next. And you're reading, you know, I'm reading my own book and they say, let's go to Boston. I'm like, great. They're keeping the scene in Boston. And they go. And then very quickly, while they're home in Boston, they're like, let's go shopping. I'm like, okay, there's no shopping in the book, but people need to eat. Let's go to the supermarket. And on their way to the supermarket, in the supermarket, they see the bad guy, he's shopping in the same supermarket. And then they get into a car and the car chase takes them, according to the script, along the cliffsides of Boston. Place we've all been cliffsides of Boston. And I'm like, the only thing missing from this like terrible seen in a million times scene is like as the chase is taking place, like having two guys who are carrying a plate glass window across the street as the cars are.

Mike Pesca (18:55)

And a fruit card vendor, right, A.

Brad Meltzer (18:57)

Fruit card vendor, an old lady, a bus full of kids in a superhero movie. Like, pick your trope. And to me, I have no interest in collecting more of those scripts. So I've been very tight with what we do with it now.

Mike Pesca (19:09)

Well, why they do it in the supermarket, as you know, is they get paid for all the product placement every time they go past scraps macaroni. So even if the, even if the box office is terrible, you know, post General Mills might make some money on the back end off of it.

Brad Meltzer (19:23)

Do you know my kids now, like, they're so. I didn't know any of this when I was younger. Right. None of us knew that. We were just happy that Back to the Future was drinking a Pepsi. We were just like, awesome. We like Pepsi. I want a Pepsi now.

Mike Pesca (19:35)

We thought Darth Vader and the Force.

Brad Meltzer (19:37)

Watching a movie. I was watching a movie with my kids, and they literally, some guy comes on the screen who he's supposed to be the bad guy. And my son shouts out to the other two kids, he's not the bad guy because he's using an iPhone. IPhone won't license it. Let a bad guy use the phone. I'm like, guys, can you just watch the movie like you are children? Stop doing that. So that's what we've come to.

Mike Pesca (20:00)

So if they do make a movie of this, you know, you haven't thought of it, but they have to change the whole idea of the Breakfast Club. Unless that studio buys it.

Brad Meltzer (20:07)

I don't think so. I mean, yes, you could pick a different name, but I think, I actually think picking a reference, like if you look at Pitch Perfect. Yeah, Pitch Perfect. I mean, they obviously licensed the song, so I'm sure they got clearance for it. But there's plenty. I mean, Clerks had old Star wars references. Yeah. You know, Kevin Smith's a dear friend, but I'm going to wager good money he wasn't paying Lucasfilm for that reference.

Mike Pesca (20:29)

Yeah. For his $89,000 movie. Clerks, I don't think.

Brad Meltzer (20:32)

Right. So. So there are ways. I believe. There's a will. There's a way.

Mike Pesca (20:36)

Or you could cast Melinda. Molly Ringwald could play her. She's about the right.

Brad Meltzer (20:40)

That's right. That's. That's the other way to do it is you just bring in the person who can give you the end to get you to clear the rights. Now you're thinking like a lawyer.

Mike Pesca (20:47)

How old are Zig and Nola in this one?

Brad Meltzer (20:51)

So I, you know, it's funny. I made a change. I made actually change in the. When I did the first book, I hadn't written long term characters before, and all my books have been standalones. And so I made Zig. In the first book, I was like, you know what? He's going to be 49, and then the next book he'll be 50, and the next one will be 51. And my buddy Mike Connolly was telling me about it. And, you know, he's had. He's had Bosch age over time. You know, Bosch is now like 70 something years old. And I realized when I got to the third book, I was like, I don't like, it. I don't want to do that. And so I just decided and made a change. And I just. I put it in the book and said, zig is forever going to be turning 50. He's forever 49. I don't care. And Noel is forever 27. I just changed their age. If you look in the lightning rod, I DH them backwards because I was like, I don't want to get to the point where one of them's got a walker and the other one is as old as the one started. And now I'm as old as Fish was and Barney Miller. And that, to me, is just killing me.

Mike Pesca (21:48)

Yeah. But think about the cat. I'm just back to the movies. Zendaya is definitely going to get cast as Nola. That she's a Nola. And then think about all the guys who. Who are, like, right around 50, who could play cranky and play off of her. You know, you have, I don't know, Dax Shepard or Bradley Cooper or Pedro Pascal, if you want to go that direction.

Brad Meltzer (22:10)

I like those.

Mike Pesca (22:11)

Fascinating.

Brad Meltzer (22:12)

Yeah. I mean, it's funny for me, I can't cast them because I see them so clearly.

Mike Pesca (22:17)

Yeah.

Brad Meltzer (22:17)

But I do things, and I think she's amazing. Like, she. She would be amazing at it. But the thing. The thing that's fascinating is, is for Zig is. It's. It's gotta be that right. Mix of he's obviously the older guy who's whatever, but he's gotta have that edge and that kindness. And if the kindness part doesn't come through, the whole character falls apart. Because, you know, Zig's whole belief is you put good into the world, you make the world a better place. Right. That's what he does. And that's a completely naive idea, but it's an idea worth fighting for.

Mike Pesca (22:50)

Now, was that based on the attitude of the actual military morticians who you met?

Brad Meltzer (22:55)

Yeah, it started with the military morticians, but it was. It's actually me. It took. I will say this. So. So let me just separate it out again, like, so Zig is that confident, you know, that. That kindness. Nola completely believes that if you want the world to make sense, screw kindness, you grab it by the throat and you force it to make sense. Right. Like, especially when you're fighting injustice or something unfair, you just fight. And that's me also. And in the beginning, I truthfully thought, oh, I'm like, these are the morticians, and this is a thing. It's all. It took me almost 2,000 pages. Mike to figure out. I'm just writing myself and I'm trying to figure out which part of me is right. I do believe that if you are a good person, you make the world a better place. I also believe when you see injustice, you better roll up your sleeves and fight better than you've ever and harder than you've ever fought before. And I used to think I had to make a choice. But we're all amazing and selfish and generous and horrible and incredible. We're all of that in the same day sometimes. So for a while I was like, well, who's right? My Nola side or my Zig side? And the reality is, no, it's just me trying to accept. Accept myself for who I am. That's all these books I finally figured out are. And that's why I like the characters, because they're my two approaches to the universe.

Mike Pesca (24:10)

So when the last book ended, Lightning Rod, these two were on the outs, essentially, right?

Brad Meltzer (24:17)

They're always on the outs. I don't care what any they are. They're. That is right.

Mike Pesca (24:22)

So you come up with Nola's brother as sort of a stand in for the interplay. At least the intergenerational interplay. Not just brother twin. They're exactly same age. I mean, does other things in the plot. But was that part of it?

Brad Meltzer (24:35)

Yeah. No, I want it. What. What I knew I could get, you know, I, I learned this more writing comic books. I, I didn't know. It took me, you know, nine books before I ever tried to write a series character, repetitive character. And the first time I did it, I did it in this series called the Inner Circle. And I love those books. But I, I didn't build the character for long enough that they could last beyond three books. I kind of solved this problem in the third book. And I was like, I don't know what else I have to say about him. And it wasn't until I was working on Superman and Batman and Spider man that I was like, oh, I need a problem that can't be solved. They have to have problems that will never. Batman's problem will never be solved. Right?

Mike Pesca (25:14)

Because that's his character that's tortured by the death of his parents. That's what drives.

Brad Meltzer (25:18)

His parents are dead. He'll fight crime, he'll try and bring them back. It'll never bring back his dead parents. The hole will never be filled. And it wasn't. And I realized that if I bring. The trick about Zig and Nola is I don't want it to Be a buddy cop movie, you know, I don't want it to be like they have to always be a little bit like putting up with each other. You know, Nola's never going to be like, hey, let's team up and solve the crime. You know, she's just not putting up with that. And so as a stand in, her twin brother was a perfect way to emotionally pull her in and let me explore more important her past because it gave me because she's. She's never going to say anything, but he could say whatever he wants. So. And then obviously you see in the Viper, you know, Roddy becomes. It was me trying to figure out, okay, now what do I have to say about him? And obviously where he goes and what he does in the book is, you know, still gives me all that emotional impact into Nola. That's what he's always there for. And I also think he shows you very clearly he's just a bit more chaos than even she is because he's such a wild card.

Mike Pesca (26:25)

We'll be back with more of Brad Meltzer and the Viper in a moment. You know, when I'm seen about town wearing my camel hair double breasted overcoat, and they have two, but mine's in the more camel brown caramel type color. I draw stairs and it's because much like their responsible down hooded parka, no camels were actually injured. But I create quite the show. I cut quite a figure and I am warm. Quince has always unbelievable cold weather coats for men and women and everyone who is even smaller and maybe having a little bit of mucus dribbling out their nose. Put them in a quince, they'll look better, they'll feel better, they'll be warmer. They have men's Mongolian cashmere sweaters, wool coats, leather suede overcoats. It's impressive. They have, like I said, the down jackets and the camel hair and a tank, Italian leather outerwear. They cut out the middlemen, sorry, middleman. You can still qualify for an excellently priced Quint product. Costs. As a middleman or woman, you are still in America or Canada. But because the middleman is cut out, there are no markups. They give you unbelievable quality, the same quality as luxury brands at a fraction of the price. Sounds like a cliche about how Quint does it, but that really is how they do it. So you'd be a fool not to take advantage of the fact that middlemen are getting cut out left and right. If the middleman economy has to suffer, I mean, shouldn't you be the beneficiary. Plus middlemen will be warmer. You got to see some of their Italian leather outerwear that the middlemen are wearing. Now refresh your winter wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.com the gist for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in the cold land of Canada as well. That's Quince.com/the gist. Free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com/the gist everyone deserves to be connected.

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Mike Pesca (29:13)

We're back with author Brad Meltzer speaking of his new novel the Viper, which is in fact a Zig and Nola novel. When you're writing a series, let's go back to the first one in the series, Escape Artists. Do you know it's a series and how far? If so, how far ahead? Do you sketch out, plan out, or even just have a vague thought about how you're going to use the series to keep establishing character but also to withhold character elements and biographies such that the readers will be interested to keep coming back?

Brad Meltzer (29:47)

Yeah, so I knew, I knew it was going to be a series. I didn't say this has to be one, but I was like, I want to see if I can build one. When I got to the end of that one, I was like, I think I do. And then it wasn't until, truthfully, the third book that I was like, do I want to do a fourth? And I'm not one of those people. I know I have buddies who do this and they're like, I have. I remember Vince Flynn, may rest in peace, came up to me at the start of his career and he's like, I got the first nine books planned. And I was like, what are you talking about nine books planned? But that's how his brain worked. He had to figure that whole picture. I am not like that. I know they're ending. The only thing I know is their ending. I know the ending long term. But I to me, always feel like my best books have come when I want to write it. Not because I have to, but I want to. And when I started, I'm now working on the fourth book in the series. I was like, I love these characters. I want to. I have more to say about them. And as long as that is true, the series will continue. And when I'm bored with them, I'll go to something else. But I feel like I finally found something that lets me explore. And it is going to sound hoity toity, but it truly lets me explore what I'm going through. I did not figure out in this book what I said about them being me until I was writing this book. And it made me realize, like, what I was, you know, the. The best writing for me personally is when I figure out when I'm done what I've been dealing with that whole year. I mean, it's truly like my freest form of therapy. And. And every time I remember working on a book, my mom was dying. She was on her deathbed, and she was in hospice at that point. And they had sent me the book I was working on at the time. And I'm proofing the final draft of it. And as I'm reading through it, I realize I'm like, oh, this is about a guy who's losing his mother. My mom has been dying for years now. But I didn't realize I put it in the book. I was like, that's the core of this book. It's me coming to terms with the death of my mother because I didn't know she was going to die while I was writing it. It just happened while the book was being written. And I think some people are smart enough to know when they start what the grand theme will be. I've always been lucky enough to, for the most part, to me, the best books I've written are where I get to the end and I'm like, oh my gosh. That's what's been bothering me this for so long. And I didn't realize it. And Zig and Nola, because they're both those sides of me, have been able to like, help me pull that apart.

Mike Pesca (32:11)

So what did the Viper make you realize that the book or your year was really about?

Brad Meltzer (32:16)

Yeah, I mean, I think the Viper was. Was the biggest book I've written about self acceptance. You know, I used to. I used to. I'll say it this way, my. I've carried around my anger about my dad for a long time and really been mad about stuff. He's kind of caused headaches in my life. And again, my dad and mom have both passed away. And I made peace with him before he died. But I was still mad when I graduated high school. I mean, when I graduated college, just before I graduated, they kicked me out of school because no one was paying my tuition anymore. And I was like, okay, I'll figure it out. I'll turn it into loans. I'll, you know, I turn it into loans and I get to stay in school. When I graduate, I switch my address from when I'm home. And I, as my mail starts getting forwarded, I start getting $40,000 of credit card debt that my father has illegally opened in my name because that's how he was paying my bills. He was, he was literally borrowing credit cards in my name. Rather than me taking a 1% loan, he was taking 22% interest rate credit cards. Terrible idea, giving me $40,000 of debt. He was trying to pay it off, but like he just couldn't hold it all together. His business was going south. And, and every time I would kind of catch my feet on solid ground, I'd just get another slap in the head of like some other dumb plan he would have that would just screw the whole thing up. And, and I tell that story for years. And at his funeral I also told this story, but this was the part I was missing is my dad used to get beat up when he was little. My grandfather was a boxer, used to punch him in the face. And I know because my uncle told me that my dad used to jump in front of his little brother to protect him from taking the punch. And I know he jumped in front of his own mother, my grandmother, to make sure she wasn't hit. But I was so busy telling the story about what happened to me and how it hit me that I missed this part of the story, which was that my father was trying to take the hits for me so I could be the one in our family to actually get out for the first time. I was the first of my immediate family go to a four year college. And yes, making, taking credit card debt is a dumb plan. I don't suddenly think he was the greatest dad in the world. Like, and he had great planning, but he was trying to take that hit and take that debt so I didn't even have to take a 1% loan. He was trying to take it all on his own shoulders. And I couldn't see that because I was so mad. And what you see is in this book is a self acceptance, I think by the characters in the book. And I don't want to Name names just because it ruins the end. But there's, there's a. There's a coming to terms with their past in the Viper. The whole book, I realize, in the end is about coming to terms with your past and just finally trying to accept your past rather than buried away and be pissed at it.

Mike Pesca (34:57)

But there's also the irredeemable father whose actions can't be explained by trying to help someone else. So it's interesting to have that figure.

Brad Meltzer (35:07)

That's my anger, right? That's my. Nola's view of it is like you can never be redeemed. You can never do well by me. Right? But it, but in this book is also the one moment where you actually see a moment of love try to come from him. It's complicated. It's me trying to figure and. And that is me struggling with, trying to figure out how do you take someone that is causes you so much pain and still love them? And, and those things are. When I was done with the book, I was like, oh man, I needed to learn. I still need. I don't have it figured out. I don't have the answer because I wrote a book, but I'm still, you know, futzing around like everybody else trying to find an answer. But this book for me is Zig and Noah taking a half step closer toward each other. And that is my own self acceptance of trying to kind of square those two parts of myself and just say, you know what? It's okay to be that complicated. It's okay to be mad and to have that love.

Mike Pesca (35:58)

In the world of mystery or thriller writers, writers that use a lot of plot twists, are there really new plot twists, really new devices that even will amaze your peers? Or is it more the case? And this is, this is true with mentalists. So here's the analogy to the audience. We go see a mentalist and he'll figure out, like, what your grandmother's maiden name was or perform a trick that spells out something you could only know. And everyone in the audience is amazed by because of what the mentalist intended to induce amazement. Other mentalists, quote, unquote, mentalists will say, well, we know how all this is done, but there's still amazement there in that. With our, you know, 150 different ways to do a trick, the way you package it, how you wrap it up, how you tell the story. So this is my question. Are you guys like mentalists where there are, you know, well known plot devices or ways to do a trick or variations on plot device 1:4008:3. But the thing that's really impressive is how you package it and how you. How you bring the audience in to something that isn't necessarily the first time someone invented it.

Brad Meltzer (37:08)

Yeah. I mean, I really do think, and maybe this is naive in me, we all know when we've seen the retread nonsense, it feels retread. You've just see it and you go, like, that's bad. But if I answered that question and said it's all been done before, here's what I just. Here's what I believe at my core is there will always, till the end of time, be someone who just puts something together and knocks you on your ass.

Mike Pesca (37:35)

Yeah.

Brad Meltzer (37:36)

You ever see everything everywhere all at once?

Mike Pesca (37:37)

Yeah.

Brad Meltzer (37:38)

I remember going to see that movie and just being like, film is dead. I've seen it all. It's all been done. And I sat in that movie and I was like, I'm going to take every person in my family and drag them to this theater to see this breath of fresh air that has just been offered up to us. And I just have faith that there is someone out there right now. When we all go through our tricks and do the thing and do the trick. Like, I can tell you that when I read a thriller, I take it apart, I enjoy myself for 50 pages. That's it. And then I'm done. Because I'm like, there's the killer. Here's the thing here. Like, I was watching a movie with my wife and this is me. As when you watch a movie with me where half hour in, and I go, you want to know who did it? She's like, do not say a word. Don't say a word. And then the movie ends and she goes, were you right? And I go, my way is better. Like, that's how much of a pain in the ass I am. So I think I can predict like 90% of the things that are out there. But, man, I love being wrong and surprised and I'm. And I will continually believe that there's someone out there right now. Some, you know, young girl working in a garage on whatever her thing is clicking away or typing away or filming away or AI in a way, or whatever she's doing away, that's just going to knock us out of our socks. And I will forever have faith in that.

Mike Pesca (38:51)

But it's also so cool if you really know the genre to know, okay, that's. If not Ten Little Indians, Agatha Christie did something like that. Or, okay, you know, people who are. I bring up knives out again. And I'm not so steeped in the mystery writer genre and there are awards for it, but I think the people who are so steeped respect it on two levels. That it is new and it is refreshing and the characters are new. But also that it is a classic kind of mystery. No, that really.

Brad Meltzer (39:24)

The setup. The setup is. There are classic setups. I don't know. Funny thing is, is I don't think every setup is a classic setup. Knives out is a particularly classic setup. That is truly Agatha Christie born and bred. She's the first person I ever read of mystery. So when I look at that, I'm just like, I'm. It's a warm blanket to me. I come home and I'm like, oh, we're trapped in the room, we're trapped on the island, we're trapped in the restaurant. Like, that's a. That is a classic setup. But I love the fact that there are things that are not classic setups. Maybe you can argue every single. Every single thing is, but that just feel like. I remember reading Gone Girl. Right? Yes. It's a mystery. It's a new thing. It's an unreliable narrator. I've seen that before, like, blah, blah, blah. It knocked me out of my socks because that voice was so distinct and so. So I don't think it's. You're. You're asking a structural question, but I think that the way it becomes new is. Sure, maybe there is structure. That's always there. There is always a beginning, middle, end. The structure stays the same. But a new voice can take that structure and just wreck every expectation you have. Right. There's no one that predicted Gone Girl when it came out. That thing was just a train through your brain. I loved it.

Mike Pesca (40:39)

So there is. You write thrillers, and thrillers are mystery plus action. And that's what I wanted to ask you. Are there new ways under the sun to write action costs in movies? There will be directors who come along and they kind of redefine the grammar of the action sequence. You know, John Woo or Paul Greengrass in the Bourne movies. You know, these quick cuts and you're not sure what's going on. And the kinetic nature of the action scene is translated on screen. But what about in print? Is there anything like that?

Brad Meltzer (41:09)

Yeah, the trick about print, and I learned this the hard way when I was working in TV and when I was working in comic books, is. Is movies and. And even comic books, they can do silence, right? I can make a panel of Spider man or Superman and. Or Batman and just be like, just have him say nothing. And repeat that again and repeat that again. And you just feel that beat of silence. It's like. It's like putting music in something. It affects the whole thing in a book. I can't do that. I can say it's silent. I could describe things. I could say a moment passed, I can say. But it. But it never hits as hard as true silence does. But I have seen people that have found really cool ways to do it now. And it usually comes from, like. It'll come from something stylistic. It'll be like just changing the page and just making a blank page, you know, and you're just like, oh, shit, I never thought of that. It'll come from some. You know, sometimes you'll see, like, a character who just has a completely different view. Like. Like it's an autistic character, right? And they're just. And their response to something is so different on the page and they write in a different font and it changes the whole scope of it. So I do like those. I do think about trying to figure them out. I mean, think about Owen meaning, right? Owen Meaney in all caps was just a. That was like a crazy break of what a novel could do just in. In picking an all capital letter speaking person.

Mike Pesca (42:34)

Yes. I mean, it's so funny because it's innovative, but Tristam Shandy, one of the first novels, was doing this stuff. I guess no one was bold enough to imitate it for many years, but he would have. You know, a lot of this was.

Brad Meltzer (42:47)

Going on, but you put your finger on it. Like, I remember my very first. First book, I wrote a third person narrator. And then the second book, I was like, well, I did that. I want to try. Can I do two narrators? And my editor at the time was like, you can't. And I'm like, oh, okay. So I didn't. And I was like, who. Who's. Who's the they. That says, you know, they don't. They say you can't do that. And so for the third book, I was like, you know what I'm doing? I'm going to try a first person. And the first person and main guy, the bad guy, was in third person. And then I was like, huh, you could do that, too. And then I was like, can I. I won't tell you what book, but can I kill my first person narrator?

Mike Pesca (43:22)

That is.

Brad Meltzer (43:23)

And they were like, you can't do that. I'm like, watch this. And I did, man. And people flipped out. I was Like, I just wanted to see, can I pull it off? And I was like, screw it. I'm gonna make you love this character and then murder him in the middle. And that was just me, I think, younger and starting out, trying to figure out where are. Where are the boundaries on this thing that I was just elbowing around and I finally figured out there's no boundaries. It's all stupid. They're all invented rules. You ever read Junot Diaz? Like, there's barely any punctuation. There's like run on sentences. Like, to me, if it works for you, then it works as long as the reader can. Can get it. I'm not a believer in the rules.

Mike Pesca (43:59)

Do you keep an actual file of, I don't know, fun facts about how organs fail or how pigeons make a nest?

Brad Meltzer (44:07)

Yeah, yeah. Everything. I mean, I am. I am all. I mean, every detail you see in that book, and there are, you know, how many are in this. I mean, even though. Let's just talk for the. About the opening for a moment. Like, I got the. The whole idea came from this book is I was researching, doing exactly what you're talking about, just trying to find stuff. And I was in a. I was in a mortuary and my buddy was a mortician, is taking me around. Just show me around. Here's what a mortuary is really like when nobody's here. And I'm going through the whole place and I see this one door that has a padlock on it. And if I'm walking through anywhere and there's a big padlock, I'm like, what's in that door? And he opens up, he undoes the. Takes out a key, undoes this giant lock, opens it up. And in there is all. Are all these suits that look like they're from the 90s. Like, they're just like pinstripe, like Bill Clinton inauguration, you know, like double like dresses that you would see someone wear at someone's bat mitzvah and wedding. And it's all the clothes. He tells me that people who are older that they picked out that they want to be buried in. If you're sick and you don't have family, you pick out what you're going to wear to your own funeral. And he's got like, there's someone with like a Jets jersey in there. There's something. There's a cowboy hat in there because someone. Guys like my ex wife hates his cowboy hat.

Mike Pesca (45:20)

Literally. That's literally in the book.

Brad Meltzer (45:22)

I truly put that in the book because it really happened. Like and that is real. Like, people just like, screw my ex wife, put me in the hat. And. And I thought to myself, let me interrupt.

Mike Pesca (45:32)

You say a football jersey in the book. If you had written a Jets jersey, I would say, okay, that's. He's just gilding the lily there. He's just, he's just trying to make an absurd and in fact, offensive.

Brad Meltzer (45:42)

Yeah, no, no, that would. No one believe the jets jersey. I will tell you that. Yes, yes. Yeah. And so, and, but I remember saying at the time, I'm like, Because all I do is think about hiding spots. That's my whole life. And I'm like, if you, if you open up a bank account, this paperwork gets filed, people can find it. You open up a PO Box and a UPS store, paperwork gets filed, government can find it. But if you go to your local mortician and you give him a suit that you have secretly sewed something into the lining of that suit, you have the ultimate untraceable hiding spot. And I was like, that's chapter one of the book is a guy walks into a funeral home, hands over the suit, he hides something in it, he gets murdered, and no one knows what's hidden in that suit. And the whole thing came from that moment of research of me just looking around for the craziest thing I can find. So, yes, I have books filled with, like, it literally is one that just. It just says cool details and it's like, when I need a thing, it's just in there.

Mike Pesca (46:37)

The name of the new book is the Viper. It is a Zig and Nola novel. And we've been talking with. And gosh, this is half, half dozen things. Time on the gist. And I always enjoy talking with Brad Meltzer. Brad, thank you so much.

Brad Meltzer (46:50)

Love you, brother. Thank you.

Mike Pesca (46:51)

And now the spiel. Let's parse what Tony de Coppol said. Decouple said. Decouple said, let's parse what Tony de Copple said and try to be real mad. Tony decouple was named head of CBS Evening News, the storied chair once filled by Connie Chung, Jeff Glor, and Maurice Dubois. He has his critics. They did not like his announcement of what he wants to do, which was not put too much weight on the analysis of academics and elites. Let's not forget the people are the people. Maybe forgetting that academics are people, though, they sometimes get it wrong. And the people sometimes also get it wrong. Okay, that was that. Now he's actually doing the coverage. And the people who comment on Twitter didn't like what he said about January 6.

Tony de Coppol (47:39)

Also tonight, five years after the January 6 attack, a group of pardoned defendants marched through Washington. President Trump today accused Democrats of failing to prevent the attack on the Capitol while House Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries accused the president of quote, whitewashing it.

Mike Pesca (47:55)

Let's parse what Tony decouple said. So I heard three sentences all redounding against Donald Trump. Protesters did something shameful. President said something stupid. Leader Jeffries is right on. Others commenting on this news wanted to be told more explicitly that my conclusions were the right conclusions to reach or that others who might not reach those conclusions definitely should reach those conclusions because not enough evidence has been given for them to reach the conclusions. The critics all knew the correct opinions. By the way, their opinions I agree with and also said there needed to be a mechanism whereby those conclusions would be reached. CNN's Brian Stelter tweeted. Some high profile CBS News staffers were aghast last night when Tony Decouple's brief mention of the January 6th anniversary was a both sides mess. This very foxy clip ricocheted around social media and was ridiculed by media types of maybe that is the strategy to reposition CBS as one that is not beloved by the media types who are dragging down network news into a little watched or mentioned mess. Anyway, it was a 17 second segment. That's probably all you can do in a 17 second segment. There is a lot of news to get to. Decouple did the only nightly news interview last night with Maria Karina Machado which took up the largest time allotment on the CBS Evening News. It was a good interview.

Tony de Coppol (49:27)

Are you the person to lead Venezuela into that next chapter of freedom? Should you be the next leader of Venezuela?

Brad Meltzer (49:36)

Well, the people of Venezuela have already chosen and if there's something I feel proud about is how Venezuelans have understand that this is a country personal, individual decision. It's not a matter only of leadership. It's a matter of a whole society committed to do what it takes to take responsibility for our own future.

Tony de Coppol (50:01)

So in other words, the answer is yes is what I'm hearing. You won that primary. You were then banned from running. I asked you should you be the next leader of Venezuela? You say you already have won what's necessary to become it. So the answer is yes, absolutely yes.

Mike Pesca (50:18)

If we were to parse what Tony decouple said, we'd have to say that he got a clear answer out of her. Let's do the parsing. Deco also elicited the fact that the Nobel Prize winner has not spoken to Donald Trump this year. He also got on the Record her criticisms, and they were harsh of current leader Delsey Rodriguez. Good stuff. It was tight. Newscaster, 21 minutes. Everything has to be tight. Then there was this segment about all the job titles and responsibilities in the Marco Rubio portfolio. It ended the news to copel hoped, on a light note. In fact, it drove a lot of people crazy. David Boardman, dean of Temple University's journalism school, tweeted, for those like I, who were waiting to judge Tony decouple's fitness to anchor the CBS Evening News, you can stop waiting. All right, here's that dispositive segment.

Tony de Coppol (51:14)

And now AI Memes have added to that portfolio. Casting Secretary Rubio as the new governor of Minnesota, the new Shah of Iran, the Prime Minister of Greenland, the new manager of Manchester United, the head of Hilton hotels, and highest of high honors of all, the new Michelin Man. Now, back in real life, of course, these memes may not add up too much, but for Rubio's hometown fans, which are many around here in Miami, it is a sign of how Florida, once an American punchline, has become a leader on the world stage. Marco Rubio, we salute you. You're the ultimate Florida man.

Mike Pesca (51:50)

Let's parse what Tony decouple said. Yep, that was a misfire. We salute you is overly fawning. I know what it was going for. Could have gone with something like, we take our hats off to you, but you wear so many of them it wouldn't matter. Or could have gone with Marco Rubio doing his part to redefine the classic definition of Florida man. Or Florida is below the national average in unemployment, which is more impressive when you consider that Marco Rubio has taken all the jobs. That's the joke. That's the sentiment. But you definitely don't want to seem like you're cheerleading. And decouple did in that instance. But maybe if you're deserving, I don't know. You don't want to lose your minds over a B minus punchline. Actually, I know how these things go. You do want to lose your minds. It's gratifying and unifying and spins up the right kind of outrage. Outrage. Righteous outrage. Which is why I think we will have many, many more examples of let's parse what Tony decouple said. Decouple said. Decouple said let's parse what Tony decouple said. I hope it's something bad foreign. And that's it for today's show. Cory Warra works very hard and long hours to produce the gist. Leah Yanni is our production coordinator. Kathleen Sykes helps with the gist list very much helps I would say. Jeff Craig runs our social media accounts and does all the stuff with video. Check out the new website if I haven't mentioned it but for Mike pesca.com Esther Green was instrumental in putting that together and Michelle Pesca is the coo. Speaking of long hours of all of this. Thanks for listening.