Rob Reiner (6:11)

Yes.

Mike Pesca (6:11)

And you could tell when it's shot for comedy. Well, if you're not a student film like I am, if you're not, it just seems funny. What the framing of it, the kid in the middle, the parallelism of two mothers crying a little bit over the top. But there was something about that scene with all these like broken down, slack jawed, just dull eyed kids so disaffected and just the pain of the mothers. It's comedy, but it's pathos also.

Rob Reiner (6:36)

It is. And, and when that scene came from real experiences that we had and when Nick was in various rehabs over the years, there was always these family sessions where the parents would come together with the children and they'd have these therapy sessions. And we were struck, always struck by the fact that the parents were always talking about themselves and their shattered dreams. Yeah, here you are, your child is struggling, really going through a tough, tough time. And yet your concern is that how it reflects on you and that, that this child has somehow shattered my dreams for what I expected of him. And I always thought that that was kind of funny and selfish and kind of interesting.

Chris Della Riva (7:23)

I don't know what I did wrong. I tried to be a good mom.

Mrs. Claus (7:29)

When he was young, his teachers loved.

Chris Della Riva (7:31)

Him, said he lit up the classroom.

Child (possibly Zoe or Bridges) (7:35)

And then all my hopes, my dreams shattered.

Rob Reiner (7:44)

I did see a lot of people in those meetings who did think of it that way, that, you know, this, the kid is doing something to me. I didn't view it that way. I just viewed my child in pain and I didn't know what to do to help him. And so you know, this process of making the movie was a big eye opener for me. I mean, I didn't go into it thinking, all right, this is gonna be cathartic, you know, or, or, you know, it'll be like a therapeutic experience. But it turned out to be that because it forced me to look at what Nick was going through and it forced him, I think, to look at what I was experiencing.

Mike Pesca (8:21)

I'll play that whole interview this weekend. Rob Reiner, what a career and what a horrible weekend. Bondi Beach, Brown University. The murder of Rob Reiner. The denigration of Rob Reiner's legacy and life by the President of the United States. Rob Reiner gained fame sparring with one cartoon bigot leaves this world denigrated by another. On the show today. This is going to be, this is a big 180. Let's do something fun for the whole show. We're going to talk to Chris Della Riva who writes a great substack. He's interested in pop music, he's interested in number ones and his new book is called Uncharted Territory. What numbers tell us about the biggest hit songs and ourselves. Chris Dala. Up next, True work is a jeans, shirts, jacket, everything doing it outdoor company that clads and clothes me extensively. It's founded by a trade professional. We're just tired of working in the rain and wearing heavy weighed down gear and began to design clothes that work for you, clothes that wick for you, clothes that help you on your job performance. Fabrics for lasting comfort all day mobility and year round job site protection. Every piece is tested on job sites with trade pros so that when the weather changes you are still ready in your true work. They've got 50,000 five star reviews from pros in every trade in every climate. I use this product. I wear this stuff all the time. When you see me on the street, there's a 40% chance that I'll be wearing one of these. I wear the pants I wear. The solution hoodie versatile with a tear proof fabric. I don't know, I didn't even know it was tear proof. I know it hasn't torn. And also a wind resistant, insulated, very comfortable hoodie that I'm a little embarrassed to tell you is the would be hoodie but it is and it works well. Upgrade your day with workwear built like it matters because it does. Get 15 off your first order@truework.com with code. The gist often spell these. I often spell the names of sponsors but this time pay attention because there's A twist. It's T R U E W E R k dot com. Remember, use the code. The gist. Chris Della Riva knows how to have an argument, which is he brings the goods when it comes to empirical data. Lots of charts, lots of graphs, lots of facts. But then in his new book, Uncharted Territory, what numbers tell us about the biggest hit songs and ourselves a lot of fodder for debate. For instance, is want ads the most underappreciated song of its era? Or, and this is my supposition, is it a lot like car wash, except car washes still exist, but what ads don't? So what he did is he looked at all the number one hits and he found trends, he found debate points, and he generated charts. Since he's a data journalist, Chris and I have done some substack lives before. I'm pleased to have him on the gist. Now for the new book, Uncharted Territory. Hi, Chris.

Chris Della Riva (13:50)

Hey, Greg. Glad to be back here on the to chat. Chatting with you. So thanks for having me.

Mike Pesca (13:55)

Sure. So number ones are good because you have to have some sort of focus. But has your passion always been number one specifically, or was this more of a way to call the herd and focus on songs that people would know if not something like the best or most important or most telling songs of their era?

Chris Della Riva (14:18)

Yeah, my interest in pop music is, I would say, a more recent thing. You know, last year, guess last decade growing up, I was super into like classic rock, which a lot of that stuff was popular, but, you know, not really topping the charts popular. So I was. Did not set out to write this book. I just, I play music, always played in bands. I like learning music history and stuff. So I was like, oh, I'll try to listen every number one hit. And it ended up doing exactly what you said when I started turning this into a book is that it really focused things in a way that maybe if I set out to write a book initially, I would not have even considered. So it ended up just working out.

Mike Pesca (14:54)

If the way they calculate number ones now was always the way they calculated number ones, how would the songs that we know of as the number ones be different?

Chris Della Riva (15:05)

This is the thing that I often stress to people is that the Billboard. I focus on The Billboard Hot 100, which is Billboard's pop chart, was started in August 1958. And the Hot 100 has existed in name since then. But it's really measuring very different things is what you're clearly alluding to. Here is back in the day, it was Record sales and jukebox spins and, you know, radio play now, it's. It takes into account still all that stuff. But it's mostly streaming. So we're really, rather than judging things based on who is going to the record store and making a purchase, we're judging things based on what are you people actually listening to. The equivalent would be how many times did you spin your copy of I Want to hold you'd hand by the Beatles? I think the charts, what we've seen in this day and age is that there are many songs that I think people will listen to very passively that become very, very popular and stick on the charts for a long time just because it's something you'll throw on in the background. Whereas that might not have shown up on the charts back in the day because maybe you would just catch it on the song on the radio sometimes. So I think there's probably an underground of music that didn't get its due because you had to go out and buy it. Whereas now you can just, you know, there's no marginal cost for me to listen to the next Drake song or what have you.

Mike Pesca (16:22)

Well, an underground, but also a background noise. So I have no doubt that right now Billboard is accurate when they're telling us that, well, the fate of Ophelia. So you got Taylor Swift number one, but number five is All I want for Christmas was you. And number six is Last Christmas by Wham. And then of course, rocking around the Christmas tree. Christmas songs have great leeway when they assert what rock is. Jingle bell rock, that's a thing at best, which is number eight. Are they helping us like it is true, more people are streaming these Christmas songs than are streaming Choosing Texas by Ella Langley. One of the many songs in the top 20 I've never heard of. But is this really what Billboard is supposed to be doing?

Chris Della Riva (17:05)

It's a good question. I personally don't think so. Billboard is. It's ultimately. It's a trachea trade publication. You know, this is what people in the music industry look to to figure out what's popular. Is it really helpful for the person who's running an independent label to know that people are listening to Christmas music in December? Probably not. I think it could. I think it could be relegated to its own chart. And we would. The reason Christmas music wouldn't really break through back in the day is because once you owned White Christmas by Bring Bing Crosby, you didn't have to buy it again unless, you know, upgrading to a different format. Now you're Spinning it every year. So I think they should be excised from the chart. But Billboard is not gone that way now. But they do certain things where they're like, if a song has been on the chart for so long and it's starting to fall down, they'll just automatically remove it. So there is precedent for choosing to exclude certain things. But with the holiday music, they have it right.

Mike Pesca (17:58)

But there's a lot of subjectivity to that. On the one hand, there are slaves to objectivity of, look, these are the number one songs that people are streaming. On the other hand, boop. They remove a song based on. This is boring now.

Chris Della Riva (18:09)

Totally, totally. I mean, it is a. It's a decision about what they want the chart to be used for, you know, more. If you go look at Spotify's chart, that's literally just counting what's the most streamed song on the. On a specific day, it's not always interesting because people like to listen to the same things over and over again. One thing I always tell people though, is when they're like, oh, you know, so many people these days are listening to older music. I was like, well, we really just didn't have a view into when people were doing that in the past. If you were listening to your beat Beatles discography in 1985, but you'd purchased it 20 years before Billboard Nielsen, nobody would know that. And I suspect that people were still listening to predominantly older music back in the day, but the charts wouldn't reflect that because it was based on new sales.

Mike Pesca (18:55)

So the whole idea of our culture is stagnant, which you wrote about for Matt Iglesias Slow Boring newsletter. Is it so much that? Yes, a little. Or is it that it's always been stagnant? We just didn't have the counting mechanisms to notice it. I think we established some of that. But then here's where I take it further. If we. Because we didn't know how stagnant culture was and how in 1991 the Beatles were probably just as popular as Pearl Jam. If you could really count how many ears were hit each, each group was hitting sets of ears. But because we didn't know that we had more interesting charts, we had more interesting data. We probably had more interesting music because music executives themselves would look at that trade magazine and Billboard and say, let's do more music like that. I think in a way, not knowing benefited society.

Chris Della Riva (19:54)

Yeah, I think there is a point that, I mean, I'm skeptical of some of the cultural stagnation arguments because I think There is a measurement issue where we have changed how we measure things over time. Though I do think people have a point in certain senses. But to your point about the Beatles, when they released The Beatles album 1, which was just a collection of all their number one hits in the 2000s, it was like, I literally think it was the greatest selling, the best selling album in the US of the decade after, like Eminem's Marshall Mathers lp. So people are always going to listen to old stuff that's, that's popular. And I, I do think you're totally right that I think sometimes not. Not knowing does have some advantages. But it is a decision on Billboards and, and on the music industry's end, what we're actually trying to measure and what the point of it is.

Mike Pesca (20:42)

Right. Well, one stagnant period is pretty much as you document the first period of the Billboard charts, it starts in when, 1958.

Chris Della Riva (20:51)

Yeah.

Mike Pesca (20:51)

And things don't really get interesting for quite a while. So in 1958 through mid-60s music and the Billboard charts are treading water a little bit. And you fill this in with quotes from artists who would be interesting later, like Bob Dylan acknowledging this or Elvis Costello acknowledging this, what was going on back then.

Chris Della Riva (21:13)

It's. I've heard some people jokingly refer to this as like the wilderness years. You know, in the mid. Early to mid-50s, there was this explosion of rock and roll with Elvis and Jerry Lee Lewis and Little Richard and Chuck Berry. And then all those guys sort of disappear for a variety of reasons. Elvis joins the army, some of them are in legal trouble, Little Richard joins the church, some of them die. You know, Eddie Cochran dies, Buddy Holly dies. And I think music was popular music at least was trying to find its footing again because you had all this young talent that suddenly disappeared, which you. I think we've experienced occasionally over the decades. You know, it happened in the 90s with Kurt Cobain and a bunch of rappers dying. It sort of happened in the last decade too with a slew of rappers who died very young. But I think music, I do think there's a lot of interesting stuff that went on in this period. But of course the big explosion for a lot of people is the Beatles arriving in the US in 1963, 1964. But I think that over sometimes, sometimes that overshadows the fact that there was some interesting stuff going on even though all of these stars disappeared. And it's probably not as interesting as it could have been had, you know, Chuck Berry not gone to jail or Eddie Cochran not Died in a car crash, and so on and so forth.

Mike Pesca (22:30)

So just to pull one point of debate or interesting tidbit from that era, because it's often under explored and we'll get to others. Mr. Blue by the Fleetwoods. No, Mac, just the Fleetwoods. Which if you close your eyes, you could. You could hear, starts with a quasi spoken introduction. And this was really common. And you document why a lot of these songs came from Broadway. And Somewhere over the Rainbow actually has the quasi spoke or the spoken introduction that's cut out and that very much goes away. And I was trying to think of other examples and I think my favorite one, I don't know if this is in the book, is Leader of the Pack, where the girls are talking. By the way, where'd you meet him and accuse the amazing. You know, I met him at the. Yeah.

Chris Della Riva (23:17)

Unbelievable.

Mike Pesca (23:17)

I don't know if that will ever come back.

Chris Della Riva (23:20)

I mean, I don't think that will come back. I really do think that was a vestige of the Broadway era. And if you ever go see a show, I mean, often someone doesn't just bolt immediately into a song. Usually there's sort of this like half spoken, half sung part of the song at the beginning before they really launch into the whole thing. And I think pop.

Mike Pesca (23:38)

That's right. If you want to introduce the concept that the farmer and the cowman should be friends, you can't just say that you have to lead the audience into it.

Chris Della Riva (23:47)

Exactly. I was actually. I went and saw the new Wicked movie this last weekend and I was thinking about this because most of the songs start off that way. You know, some of them, they start sort of right away, but often there's this long introduction before you get to the meat and potatoes of the whole thing. It doesn't. It really doesn't exist anymore. And I think especially in current streaming culture where you know you're getting paid if someone listens for 30 seconds, there's real incentives to get right to it. Whereas those incentives didn't exist as much back when people were purchasing, say, vinyl.

Mike Pesca (24:23)

Now, another trend skipping over all the cool stuff of the 60s and the Beatles and Dylan, though we could get back to it. Is the 70s, very soft music, you know, sunshine on my shoulder, making me happy and so forth. There was a heyday of soft music.

Chris Della Riva (24:39)

Why I highlight a couple reasons. I mean, there were improvements in studio technology in like the late 60s, early 70s, where you could mic stuff much closer and you could really pick up those quiet sounds. Whereas for decades, if you weren't singing or performing loudly. It was not getting recorded. So I think that's part of it. But one theory that I put forth is that you had this tranche of popular artists who broke off on their own, started their own bands. You know, the Beatles break up, The Supremes break up. Eddie Kendricks. The Supremes don't break up Diana. Russ leaves the Supremes. Eddie Kendricks leaves his Temptations. John Denver, he starts out as a songwriter. He becomes a star in his own right. And based on my personal experience, if you're making music with a band and then suddenly you're like, oh, I'm gonna do this by myself, there is this pull to just sit down at the piano or sit down with an acoustic guitar and make something yourself. And because of that, I think there's a quietness in the early 70s just because these artists were a little bit older, they were making music, they were starting solo careers. And you end up with this soft rock sound that is pervasive, I think, before disco really takes over.

Mike Pesca (25:56)

Yeah, if. If you have the band behind you and you gotta. You gotta feed the band. Right. You gotta give them parts to play. I mean, every once in a while you could tell them to take a break, but not really. That's part of. And also. And I wonder if you've analyzed this trend, it somewhat annoys me whenever. Whenever someone does a cover of their song. Let me say it this way, I would guess that 80% of song covers slow the song down, because that's really easy to do. And maybe the person thinks about the song a lot and breaks it down into its component parts. It's very rare to take a song and make it peppier in the COVID It's very common to slow it down. And maybe that's related to the solo artist phenomenon you talk about.

Chris Della Riva (26:45)

Oh, totally. I also sometimes get annoyed by this. I mean, there's so many examples of that. One that, when you were just talking came to mind is when Carole King covers the song that she wrote, will you love me tomorrow?

Mike Pesca (26:57)

She.

Chris Della Riva (26:57)

You know, she really slows it down at the piano. Whereas the original one by the Shirelles is not.

Mike Pesca (27:03)

Not.

Chris Della Riva (27:03)

It's not super upbeat. But, you know, there's. There's some pep to it. I've often heard people complain about this. When people cover dancing in the dark by Bruce Springsteen, they always feel the Bruce covers it.

Mike Pesca (27:16)

Yeah. Always a freaking dirt.

Chris Della Riva (27:17)

Yeah. No one. No one ever just does it. Does it with a. Some energy. But I. Yeah, I think that's definitely just an urge of. If I Like my, my guitar right here, if I were to pick it up and try to play along to, I don't know, basically anything right. There is an urge to slow it down when you're. When you're by yourself, to really lean into the acoustic ness of. Of the endeavor.

Mike Pesca (27:40)

Yeah. Gets deeper also, you know, when you add tempo to it, I think you are taking more risks and you probably risk offending the original artist more than, you know, who could be. Who could be offended if you take their song that maybe they put out as a pop ditty and you find some depth in it that they didn't.

Chris Della Riva (27:59)

I think that that's also just, I guess, a bias that humans have that like we're showcasing depth if we slow something down, whereas inherently, I mean, that shouldn't be the case. Right?

Mike Pesca (28:09)

We'll be back with more of Chris Dalariva in a minute.

Child (possibly Zoe or Bridges) (28:21)

Guys.

Mrs. Claus (28:21)

Thanks for helping me carry my Christmas tree, Zoe.

Rob Reiner (28:24)

This thing weighs a ton.

Chris Della Riva (28:25)

Drewski, lift with your legs, man.

Mike Pesca (28:26)

Santa.

Child (possibly Zoe or Bridges) (28:27)

Santa.

Mike Pesca (28:27)

Santa, did you get my letter?

Rob Reiner (28:28)

He's talking to you, Bridges.

Mike Pesca (28:30)

I'm not.

Mrs. Claus (28:31)

Of course he did.

Mike Pesca (28:32)

Right, Santa, you know my elf Drew Ski here.

Chris Della Riva (28:35)

He handles the nice list. And elf.

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Mike Pesca (29:55)

We're back with Chris Della Riva. And before the break, we talked about some slow songs. Let's talk about a different kind of song. Royals, My Lord. So this exemplifies a trend you were talking about. There are songs that we love because we love them, but there are songs that we love because we're just. Just habituated into hearing them. I don't know. It's on all the time. And I began humming it. You know that phenomenon. A lot of times songs are thrust upon us or at least they surface for odd reasons, even sui generous reasons. And royals is a symbol of that, is it not? And royals is a symbol of that. You write. Is it not an outgrowth of one guy who invented Napster and put that song in his playlist and the rest is history?

Chris Della Riva (30:39)

Yeah, definitely. His name is Sean Parker and he was involved in Napster. I mean, he has a crazy career. He's involved with. In Napster. Napster. Everyone hates the music industry. Hates Napster. It's too sued out of existence. He eventually ends up as like the first president of Facebook and then he gets really involved in with the Swedish streaming company Spotify. Suddenly they somehow they let him back near the music industry after creating Napster, which every label hated and Spotify created.

Mike Pesca (31:12)

It really, really hurt sales. I mean, you have the chart there.

Chris Della Riva (31:15)

Oh, totally. I mean, that's the thing. I think people think that like, oh, the itunes store came around and turned the industry around. It just didn't like the industry revenues don't turn around until streaming and what to back to the Royals point. On his early. One of his early playlists on the platform, Sean Parker adds this song by Lord and it was a popular playlist. And that sort of jump starts Royal's popularity. You know, that's. I'm not sure that's not the only thing, but this illustrates a trend that I come to again and again in the book. Is that like the way we listen, the technology we listen through the technology used to make music influences the things that we create and the things that we like. And I think really subtle ways. I mean, this isn't super subtle, but I think it's a good example. It's like you're. If you're hearing it on the radio, you might not realize that part of the reason it got there was some tech executive Decided to put this song on a popular playlist. I mean, it's just not going to cross your mind. I mean, I like the song, so I'm happy about it. But it's a good example of that trend about the power that Spotify was eventually going to have.

Mike Pesca (32:21)

Has she ever had. She's never had another number one. Has she ever had big hits? I've not seen her personally in concert, but I have a lot of respect for her as a songwriter. But it doesn't seem like she's ever written. Forget anything close to that. Something that would even tell me, oh, this is the person who wrote Royals.

Chris Della Riva (32:40)

Yeah, it's. I actually just saw her in concert a couple months ago and she played Royals, like near the beginning of the show. And she has a very interesting career because she had like, her career started where she was a pop star and then she sort of just developed like this cult following where people, her fans don't require her to write these big pop anthems anymore. I don't. She had a song called Green Light. Maybe it was top 20. I. I mean, I don't think it was getting ton of radio play, but her biggest pop songs were definitely on that first record. And that record's very tightly written. And I think some of her later records are, I don't know, a bit more like listening to someone reading from their diary. And I say that in the nicest way possible. I like her later records, but yeah, Royals hit.

Mike Pesca (33:25)

How old was she? She was like 20.

Chris Della Riva (33:27)

Oh, she was like 15. I mean, she was really. She was really.

Mike Pesca (33:31)

That is. Is there. Can you think of another genius song written by someone that young? Like, I know Michael Jackson. He didn't write the Jackson 5 stuff and he was younger. But 15, you usually.

Chris Della Riva (33:45)

The people that become popular at that age are not getting songwriting credits. So I. I can't think of anyone. I'm sure they're. I mean, Stevie Wonder is popular from the time he's very young, but I.

Mike Pesca (33:56)

Feel like Stevie Wonder.

Chris Della Riva (33:57)

Yeah, I feel like his classics that he's involved with writing don't emerge till he's like the late 60s maybe, when he's almost 20, which is still super young. But yeah, 15 is. Is quite precocious.

Mike Pesca (34:10)

The chart about number or average weeks a song stays at number one. Hey Jude. Late 60s songs would stay at number one for three to three and a half weeks, then very much dipped. Why did it dip? And what did that do to our appreciation of music? Or maybe third question, was it just a reflection of the massive appeal of the songs that stayed at number one for that long.

Chris Della Riva (34:40)

I mean, part of it is the appeals. Like, you know, it's. It's hey Jude. I mean, of course people want to listen to it a million, Buy it a million times and listen to it. One thing I highlight in the mid-70s with that chart is that I think there were some backroom shenanigans going on at Billboard with the guy that was running the charts was this guy named Bill Wardlow. And over the decades, there have been accusations that he. He wasn't selling positions on the charts. But, you know, if he was your friend and you were like, I need this to get to number one, he would put it at the top of the charts. So it wasn't as scientific as it is today for how they generate these charts. So what I was highlighting there partially was that you see this in the data. You can see that someone was probably messing with the charts. And if, for example, you were trying to help out your friends or sell position on the charts, you would want a ton of turnover. Right? You know, you would. If you needed 10 different people to get to number one, it makes most sense to give them all a number one hit for a single week. That's not to say the charts were completely made up. It's not like some really obscure record that no one was actually buying could just be plopped at number one. But because it was less scientific, I mean, it was supposedly made by just surveying record stores, I think it would be really hard for people internally to tell, like, oh, Was this number two or was this number one? Whereas now we get the hard. Since 1991, we get the hard data on this stuff and it's a little bit more objective.

Mike Pesca (36:06)

Dance music has always been popular. Disco music has always been popular. But music or number one songs were with dancing in the title, that has. But for a small spike in the disco era, that has been remarkably consistent. You prove.

Chris Della Riva (36:23)

Yeah, yeah, I, I don't just. So I look, I look at song titles that had. Dance was one of the words in the title, but I look for other things like shake or, I don't know, booty or, you know, very Boogie Woogie.

Mike Pesca (36:37)

Woogie.

Chris Della Riva (36:37)

Yes. Boogie is another great example. And those words are very consistently not in a ton of songs. And then like 1976 to 1978, it shoots up and it's like, I don't know, 15% of songs in a given week will have those words in the titles. And a good illustration of how explosive disco was, how explosive that popularity was, and Then how quickly it fell off.

Mike Pesca (37:00)

Then there is the question of timelessness, which is kind of hard sometimes, you know, if a song is a novelty in the era, no one was going to say they'll be singing disco duck in 30 years. But when you were evaluating the more recent songs, would you say that it's timeless because it reminds you of other older songs? If so, aren't you forestalling the possibility that song of the modern era would reshape the genre or become something that one that seems avant garde at the time, but would one day be regarded as time timeless?

Chris Della Riva (37:34)

Yeah, this is. It's a great, great question. And it was something that I would wrestle with a lot as I was listening to more contemporary stuff because I. I was born in 1995, so there was some older stuff that was I'd never heard before and I was truly listening with fresh ears. But everything new, you know, since 2000, like I'd heard all these songs a million times. And especially with the more recent songs, I think it was really difficult to try to assess what is actually good and what is actually bad. I think for most people we have a better grasp about what's good as more time passes. So I don't actually. I don't think I have a great answer to that question. I mean, I would sort of just trust my ears and be like, I think I have a. I have good taste and if I think this is good now, hopefully people will think it's good in 10 years. But I am curious, you know, if I look back in a decade, maybe I'll be like, oh my God, how did that end up in the top three? Maybe we. Maybe we will be wrong or maybe we will be right. But there's, There's. I guess there's. Time will tell is really the only way you can do. You can know that stuff.

Mike Pesca (38:39)

Yeah. So disabuse me. I'm pretty sure that I'm just curmudgeonly. But when you have a chart in here about percentage of top 40 artists who are new pop stars. And so in 1977, Billy Joel was new. 1984, Madonna, 2008, Lady Gaga, 2024, Sabrina Carpenter is a new pop star. I don't think Sabrina Carpenter is bad. I think she serves her purpose. I don't think that beyond placing her with those other three, is there anything. Just trust your ears. Has she ever recorded a really good song, would you say Espresso Absent all the Persona of Sabrina Carpenter is a good song in a way that a lot of fireworks Or a lot of Katy Perry songs who is a similar. You cute, sexualized, visually attractive artist of her day. I would say that is a cute. That is a good song. But maybe it's just because, you know, I'm in my 50s and she's in her 20s.

Chris Della Riva (39:40)

It's a good question. I do think a lot of things that she does are. Are gimmicky and, you know, play into controversy in a way that most of the most stuff that leans into controversy usually, I feel like it usually doesn't age as well, but we've seen artists who managed to transcend that. I feel like Madonna was always leaning into some controversy, and many of her songs, I think, still stand up well over time. Espresso is like an earworm for the ages to the point where I don't even know if you can properly assess it other than the fact that when you hear it, you will be thinking of it for way too long afterwards. I am, you know, I'm interested to see. See what. See what she does. I mean, she. She works with Jack Antonoff, who's a producer that. I mean, he's sort of the super producer of the day. I really like a lot of his guy from Fun. Yep. Yeah, he said a crazy career. I really. And I liked her song Please, Please, Please, which was a. Was also a number one hit. But, yeah, it's hard to say. I think Katy Perry is a pretty. Pretty good comparison, though. But all the stuff that's like, you know, super sexualized, I. I feel the same way as you do. I mean, it's like it's. I'm not. I'm not the core audience here, so for someone else, it might work. For me, it. It doesn't always work. And I feel like this stuff doesn't age as well.

Mike Pesca (41:01)

And Madonna was super sexualized, but also, you know, the talent was off the charts and her taste making ability and so forth. I also think she was more an actor than a reactor. And I think, you know, Sabrina Carpenter, whatever, former Disney kid, playing into some things, knowing. Knowing where the third rails are, whereas Madonna was more finding them.

Chris Della Riva (41:23)

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And like I said, a lot of those Madonna songs that were controversial at the time or were clearly, you know, trying to push certain people's buttons, they work outside of that controversy where I think that's what matters if you want something to stand the test of time, otherwise it'll just become like a vestige of. A vestige of the era.

Mike Pesca (41:47)

Yeah. So why do you think that? What is the big reason that people Talk about stagnation or aren't happy with pop beyond. There's always complaints. I mean, you've written articles like pop music isn't popping like it used to. You've written about the Spotify effect, which is a deadening effect, especially for a discovery, though it doesn't have to be. What's behind that?

Chris Della Riva (42:12)

Oh, tough question. I think a lot of people who make these claims are often older and it's like, well, you know, pop. If we're talking about popular music, I mean, we're really, at least in the last 60, 70 years, we're talking about youth music. And if you're 60 years old and you're not understanding what's going on, I think that's actually a good thing. I think if the, if the, you know, the 60, 70 year old writers are all like, oh, you know, this, this, this really, I really jibe with this, that would be a sign that right there's actually stagnation. Whereas I can. But I'm amenable to certain things because I understand and I write about this a lot in the book, that the music we make, the way we listen is real, is often dictated by technology. I don't think it is deterministic, but there are some strange incentives that streaming, streaming music creates. You know, there's a very passive way to listen to music. That wasn't necessarily the case back in the day. I will say that there were always passive listeners. That's what we had the radio for. But. But streaming really makes it easy to, you know, open your streaming app of choice and just click play and have no idea what's actually going on in the background. And I think when you're not actively engaged with the music you're listening to, then we can get this sense that things are becoming stagnant because it is about engagement, I think, to some degree also. I mean, there's so much more media these days, whereas music doesn't dominate the zeitgeist always in a way that it was, I don't know, 50 years ago. I mean, there's just so much television to watch. You could get lost on your phone for days. Do I think that's. That's sad? You know, I love music, so I want more people listening to it and talking about it. But I think there's also competing attentions from so many other platforms that can make it hard for music to dominate the zeitgeist in a way that it did decades ago.

Mike Pesca (44:06)

The name of the book is Uncharted Territory. What numbers tell us about the biggest hit songs and ourselves. And I also want to plug the substack of the author of that book, Chris Dalla Riva, which is can't get much higher on substack. Fascinating writing all the time. Fascinating collection of his writing. I would say get it for the holidays, but apparently books are all but sold out. Chris, thank you so much.

Chris Della Riva (44:33)

Yeah, they are, they are back in stock so you should be able to get it now. But there were some supply issues. But yeah, thanks for having me. I love, love chopping it up with you and I'm, I love debating the intricacies of BoP and the battle of New Orleans. I wasn't expecting that. So thank you.

Mike Pesca (44:48)

Took a little bacon and we took a little beans and we fought the bloody British in the town of New Orleans. I mean, you know, I don't think they ever reveal that the British, that the war was over at that point. Did you know this?

Chris Della Riva (44:58)

I did.

Mike Pesca (44:59)

It was the last, yeah, it was the last battle of the War of 1812. And the word had not gotten to General Jackson that we're done. So he just decimated his opponent.

Chris Della Riva (45:10)

A very nice 19th century issue.

Mike Pesca (45:18)

And that's it for today's show. Cory War is the producer of the Gist. Kathleen Sykes helps him with the Gist list. Leah Yan is our production coordinator. Jeff Craig does our socials. Michelle Pesca is COO of Peach Fish Productions. Improve and thanks for listening.

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