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- [00:00]
Chuck Todd
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- [00:24]
Mike Pesca
Or more offer valid June 18 through.
- [00:26]
Chuck Todd
July 9, US only. See store or online for details. Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide, and every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the Now It Pays to Discover. Learn more at discover.com credit card based on the February 2024 Nielsen report.
- [01:04]
Mike Pesca
Hi, it's Mike. It's Saturday. It's the Saturday show and I'm going to bring you a show that I was on, the Chuck Todd cast with Chuck Todd. And guess what we talked about on the Chuck Todd cast. Him being both a Chuck and a Todd. And how every three or four shows when he was hosting Meet the Press, someone would come on and say thanks Todd. When of course, they meant to thanks Chuck. Now at one point I threw out a statistic referencing an old report I did about the overabundance of two first name senators. I think it helps you get ahead in life. So I have a partial list of those first name senators. A couple of them I'm going to throw the yellow flag on, which is fine since Chuck and I talk a lot about sports. You got Tim Scott, Rick Scott, Cory Booker. Booker is quite a first name. One of my sons has a middle name of Booker. Elizabeth Warren. Didn't think I'd go there with the women, but sure. Women first name, male second name. Is that really in the category? Well, if it is, then Patty Murray's in there too. You got Mark Kelly, Michael Bennett, Roger Marshall, Rand Paul, Andy Kim, male, first name, female second name, Gary Peters. The plural maybe skews the sample. Ted Bud, Jack Reed, Mike Lee. I mean, that's a lot. It's like, you know, 15% of the Senate. It's kind of crazy. So this is me. This is Mike Pesca. Not a popular first name except in some suburbs of antananarivo me, Mike Pesca and Chuck Todd of the Chuck Todd cast. Great conversation. Hope you'll enjoy Gear that's built to work Looks like it Attractive clothing sometimes looks like it. I think definitionally, if it's attractive, it looks attractive. But clothing or gear that looks like it's rugged and can deal with hot rooftops or hard jobs? I guess most of this kind of clothing isn't made to look good on you. Except TrueWerk is. TrueWerk was built to meet the bar of gear that works harder, moves better, and proves itself every time. Today I was wearing a pair of my beloved TrueWerk pants. Many a zipper, certainly rugged, quite attractive. I feel very good in them. They have two buttons at the top. I don't know why, but it's all kind of cool. It's designed and engineered, really truly engineered for maximum comfort, protection and efficiency with minimum bulk or extra weight. You know, cotton denim. It hasn't changed much in 200 years. Then TrueWerk comes along and blows the entire field of gear and clothing that also works hard out of the water while wicking away the water in many cases. I love wearing my true work stuff. I think you will too. Check out the full lineup and get 15% off your first order@truework.com the gist that's 15% off at t r u e w e-r k.com the gist this message is sponsored by Greenlight. As a kid, summertime, well, it could mean a lot of things, and these days many a kid are left to rotate. It's called rotting when you don't program them incessantly. But you know, even if they're going to rot, they might want to chase the ice cream man and buy an ice pop. I speak like I'm Beaver Cleaver. Anyway, yeah, kids have expenses and you got to give them money, but you should also teach them about money. I was taught pretty well by my father, who's financially responsible, but also was good at imparting a lesson. And money was easier then. It was green, sometimes silvery, and could be exchanged for goods and services. Now you really need help and Greenlight is that help. Greenlight is a debit card and a money app made for families that helps kids learn how to save, invest and spend wisely. And you could know as a parent that your kids are able to access money but also able to learn about money and to build lessons and confidence in how they interact with money. They also have a chores feature, sort of hey, you want the money? Clean the room. I did the allowance thing for the kids for A little bit. It wasn't enough. Tied to in a direct way, here's what money is, here's what it does and here's why I'm giving it to you. This is why Greenlight is just a much better choice. Easy, convenient, parents can raise financially smart kids. Millions of parents trust Green light to orient their kids and help them learn about money. Don't wait to teach your kids real world money skills. Start your risk free Greenlight trial today@Greenlight.com the Gist. That's Greenlight.com the Gist to get started Greenlight.com the Gist.
- [06:17]
Chuck Todd
Well, joining me now, we did a home and away. I think is way to do it. It's Mike Pesca, who of course is best known as host of the Gist. I, I think of you, Mike, as sort of a podcast pioneer. Do you feel like you're a pioneer of this, of this day and age? I mean, you've been doing this for more than a decade. Who else can say that?
- [06:41]
Mike Pesca
Many can. They'd be lying. I do think it's the longest running news and analysis.
- [06:45]
Chuck Todd
You and Bill Sentence, right? Like, or if, if it's newsy, you.
- [06:50]
Mike Pesca
Know, Terror Terry Gross has had a podcast version of Fresh Air longer than I have. So if you take all the radio shows that went into pod, had a podcast version in 2007 or eight, sure. But doing it as a Daily show news analysis, I think it's me. If not, I'll take on all comers in the next Daily show, since there is always a Daily Show.
- [07:10]
Chuck Todd
Well, look, whether you're, you're, you're one of the pioneers, right? Let's, let's put it in those terms. I think we'd all accept that. I think it's fascinating. I just had this conversation with a media reporter who was asking me what do I make of podcasts shifting to video. And you know, and I said, look, I'll be honest. Six months ago, I still would have argued against video for podcasts because what I, what I like the best about a podcast is eavesdropping on a conversation. And the idea, and I'm a believer that once you introduce a camera, I'm going to get a less honest take. I'm going to get a less honest version of that person. But that is where the world is headed. And in fact, you, you will, you will not have a successful podcast if you stick to audio only. Now that's just, it just is what the business is. But when did this transition take place and where are you on It, I mean, obviously you've. You've embraced it. Was it a reluctant embrace or an enthusiastic one?
- [08:15]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, I hate it. I gotta be honest. My friend PJ Vogt has a great podcast and he doesn't want to do video because he says he wants to do the best version of what he's doing. And the best version of what he does, Search engine, which is a nonfiction podcast, would be a documentary. And documentaries are their own skill set. So he's either doing the very best audio podcast or a third rate documentary. I feel like I'm doing the best podcast that I could possibly do or, or a, a TV talk show with a weird green curtain behind me. The curtain's going to get better, you know, at some point, I swear to God. So I also think, was this what it seems like it's what the audience demanded. If you look at audio audience metrics, right, videos are doing really well. And if you look at people under 32, they don't think of podcasting as an audio medium. They think of it as a video medium. But so often it is the algorithms or it is the some corporate boss that made a decision. And what really is going on is that Spotify has decreed that this is the way to go, because they're thinking.
- [09:24]
Chuck Todd
Of, you put this on differentiate on Spotify, not YouTube. That's interesting. Yes.
- [09:29]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, this is. YouTube is benefiting from it. But mostly it's Spotify saying video. There's one other aspect I'll get into, but Spotify has said to themselves, if we become a video player, that's much better for business, because as an audio player, we're not differentiated from the Apple podcast or some of the other audio podcasts out there. But we've got video from the jump. So some of the most popular ones, like Joe Rogan, they've always been video. So then they started to tell everyone, you got to go video. I think they probably punish people who didn't go video. The other thing that's going on is podcast has a terrible problem with discovery, right? The funnel is if you get attention, maybe you got attention. You left NBC, people said, where's Chuck? And early on, people started to find you. And to this day, people are probably saying, oh, Chuck's there on podcasting, right? The funnel in almost only works in the beginning and then a year, in two years in, how do you get attention? It's terrible. There's no way in podcasting to kind of tell people that you're out there, but video is the one way to do it. So you have clips. I only do video. I do a video of every interview I do. I think we'll put this up on video and some people will watch it. The only reason I'm doing that is to generate clips from Instagram so that maybe someone will see this Instagram clip and say, oh, Mike Pesca, Chuck Todd. That exists as what I consider to be the primary product, which is audio. It's crazy and it's algorithm driven.
- [11:01]
Chuck Todd
It's so true. And what you just described, and I appreciate you describing it that way because it's. It's. It is, it is. There's weird something in human nature. For whatever reason, we won't clip on an audio clip. You know, you send a great exchange between you and I, audio only. And it doesn't get. Whether it's on a social media app or it's via text or whatever. I'm this way, like, send me a piece of video. I quickly watch it. Send me a piece of audio. I'm like, well, let me put my headphones in, or whatever. I. Whatever it is. And so it feels as if almost 90% of the reasons most podcasts went video is, well, it's the only way to market the podcast.
- [11:45]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, I think it has fundamentally to do with attention. So when something has a visual component, including words, it's vying for your attention, it's announcing itself. It's saying, pay attention to me. Probably because of the kind of animals we were on the savannah as prey, by the way. Anthropology is finding out more and more that we're inherently prey. And most of our motive, innovation is we're worried about being harmed anyway. Yeah, yeah. So we're. So we're animals. We're worried about this. And the visual is how we stay alive. The audio is a little bit deeper. It probably activates other aspects of our brain, but it's not as urgent. Visual is urgent, audio less urgent. This used to be great, the lack of urgency in audio. When I work For NPR for 10 years, we would use phrases like, you know, it's a companion and it's. And we'd have driveway moments. But it was sort of the warm bath of attention, as opposed to a tiger is going to eat us of attention. So I do. Yeah, I do think that there's fundamental difference between each medium. And I think that it's. Have people really said, you know, why like audio, video podcasts, I just like them. They just appeal to me. I don't know how many people have said that. Maybe young people have said that, but I think it just. You can't get away from it. And in this attention economy is also the urgency economy. Yeah.
- [13:09]
Chuck Todd
Here's something else, though, that why. I think many people wouldn't have predicted that podcasts would continue to grow. And in some ways this is right. We're in a second growth period because of the video component. I. I guess I was probably the best way to put it, but. And maybe this is going to change as more people do live. But I think about you doing a daily podcast. How. How did you get over the. The moment that you finished your recording and then some breaking news happened and you're like, oh, man, this is going to feel, you know, because you have to get over that. Because I could make a case that you can always find a store. I wish we would have done this. You can always find a reason to be. How did you get over that? And does it surprise you that the public hasn't punished the podcast industry collectively for its ability not to be in real time? Because it's really not in real time. It's. We are. I always say a good podcast is on the news. Not necessarily, you know, it's news adjacent, sometimes can feel on the news, but it's not necessarily in a breaking news moment.
- [14:18]
Mike Pesca
Well, it's a problem, and I don't know if it's gone. You're framing the question, look, how much podcasting has thrived. Even though this is the case, I think it's thrived despite that. I think if there was a way to be on the news, it would be even better. And it's especially, especially true when news happens on a Sunday and I listen to a lot of sports podcasts. And if the game was on a Saturday and the production schedule is not to come back to a Monday, I have to wait two days to get my podcast discussion of the game. I do not like that. So I think that it is a problem. How do I get over it? Just when it became apparent that I was killing my staff, the first three times I said we got to go live. And it didn't. It didn't really matter. But here's what, what's happening. We're now in an age. We are in an age of media abundance. Abundance. But it's really commentary. There's so much more commentary than news. And even so much of the news is commentary, as you know. And I don't know how much the consumer really realizes that, but I think we've gotten to a ratio that's. I don't know if it's dangerous, but it's certainly not optimal and possibly do. Yeah, yeah. Are more commentary than they. Than is, I think, optimal.
- [15:29]
Chuck Todd
No, it is. And it's, you know, I get so frustrated when people are even trying to pay me a compliment that they'll say, oh, I can tell you're really speaking your mind. And I'm like, yeah, but that doesn't mean I'm a partisan. You know, I'm just sort of, I'm no longer round. What I always say is I'm no longer rounding the edges as much. Right. For network television, I'd have to round the edges. Sometimes it's because my first name was Meat or sometimes because I didn't want it. I knew whatever I said was going to reflect all on the entire network. Fair. Unfair that it would. And I was mindful of that. I always got irritated when certain colleagues who hosted certain cable news morning shows didn't seem to care about their colleagues and the perception that they were creating for the rest of us that have to do this. And so now I'm no longer rounding the edges, right. I'm like, yeah, Joe Scarborough is the singular. If you're looking for somebody who did the most damage to the press and the Joe Biden story, it's, it's Joe Scarborough now. It just is.
- [16:30]
Mike Pesca
Maybe that was his long game as a Republican, I don't know.
- [16:34]
Chuck Todd
But it's like, I, I don't know how else to put it right. He was. Now, what I always found unfair is that was just his opinion and it should have just been seen as like, I don't mind that he did that. That's, that was an opinionated show. What I minded was the perception that somehow this was a media driven narrative. And it's like, no, he's, he's a partisan. But all of that has gotten so lost. I mean, me trying to explain that, that, hey, Morning Joe is not this, it's not a news, it's more of a commentary thing. And you know, it's, at this point, what does the viewer see? As I've always said, that peacock is on every channel. So the viewer just sees it all as one thing. They don't differentiate it that much. It's true of newspaper headlines. Whether the headlines over an op ed or a news story, the headline's the headline and it's a Washington Post headline. Right. Regardless of which section of the paper. So it is, you know, I don't know whether it's even worth fighting those particulars anymore in the news consumption space.
- [17:34]
Mike Pesca
The last hundred people who pointed out to me, well, that's an opinion piece. Not from the news section. Were all journalists. No citizen has ever said that to me. But was that a news piece? Just the other day on the show, I did a big story on a Guardian piece trying to say that the defund movement worked well in Houston and Seattle. And it clearly didn't, if you look at the murder rate. And I was like, wait a minute, is this a news piece? And I scanned it and I actually put it through chat. GT GPT Is this a news piece or is this an opinion piece? And it was in the news section. And then we figured out it probably shouldn't have been. But you're so right that no one gets the distinction. And there is one of the reasons they don't get the distinction isn't just on the consumer. Certain outlets will sometimes cordon off news and opinion, but there are almost no outlets anymore that you would be shocked that that opinion is being run in that outlet. There's almost no outlets where you'd even be a little bit surprised. I think the Atlantic will consistently, if we strip the title. And I said, where did this run? You might consistently say that could either be in the Wall Street Journal or the New York Times. So that's a little bit unique. But especially before Jeff Bezos had this turn with the Washington Post where.
- [18:55]
Chuck Todd
Oh, I know I used to think the Post was the. Was the best of all worlds for a while. I really did.
- [19:00]
Mike Pesca
Yes.
- [19:00]
Chuck Todd
I felt like for a period of time, the Post was its best version of itself. And then, Jeff. Right.
- [19:05]
Mike Pesca
Because I think they were reflecting Washington. Washington was a town with functional Democrats and Republicans and they would sometime talk to each other. But when that got to change, the Post got to change. And now there are, There are many, many stories that were in the Post opinion section that were. You wouldn't say, oh, that could run in another newspaper's opinion section. Who had a reading of Donald Trump that wasn't caustic. So, yeah, I think it's. I think it's very. One of the very bad trends of journalism. Also, can I just say, when you say. I've heard you say that before, my first name is Meat. As in the press.
- [19:41]
Chuck Todd
Yeah.
- [19:41]
Mike Pesca
How many people. And did you guys have a super cut in the studio where people called you Todd by mistake?
- [19:47]
Chuck Todd
Oh, yeah.
- [19:48]
Mike Pesca
That happened, like once every four shows.
- [19:50]
Chuck Todd
It did it. What's funny about it for me is, is that actually I grew. I grew up with that because my grandfather, his first name was Merle and his middle name was Lynn. So what do you think? He preferred to be called Todd. Okay, so he actually. All of his friends called him Todd. My father had it literally. His. His associates would call him Tom. My mother, when she got into real estate, all of she would be just referred to as Todd. It was. It's such a normal thing in my family that it. I would. It's funny you bring it up. It always seemed to bother other people more than it ever bothered me. It didn't. I never. I used to. I get up. The only time I'd get annoyed is when I would get Chuck Dodd or Chris Todd or. Oh, yeah. You know, there was a time I'd get the Chuck Robb, you know, that. Or. Or. But that would annoy me a little bit, but it never bothered me. But you're so. It's so funny how often the Todd thing happened. But it was. That is something I grew up with. And all the Todd. You know, when you grow up with two first names, I mean, I used to joke NBC, we were the home of two first names. Brian Williams, Andrea Mitchell, Chris Matthews, David Gregory, Chuck Todd. It was sort of astonishing how many of it.
- [21:09]
Mike Pesca
You're like Joy Reed. Yeah.
- [21:10]
Chuck Todd
You know. Yeah. It was like, how many hired.
- [21:12]
Mike Pesca
It's Jen Psaki. There are no Sack.
- [21:14]
Chuck Todd
Yeah. There's like.
- [21:15]
Mike Pesca
There's no names.
- [21:16]
Chuck Todd
Right. Yeah. No Maddows out there anymore, you know?
- [21:19]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, whatever. I once did a story on the Senate. First of all, there's a good statistic. How many Americans have two first names and, you know, senators have double the rate of two first names. Interesting.
- [21:30]
Chuck Todd
So I went into the wrong business. I could have. I had a shot of this if I wanted to be a us and.
- [21:37]
Mike Pesca
Then you could be a senator and get on a Sunday show and call someone by their last name. Yeah.
- [21:41]
Chuck Todd
So let me. Let me to go back to the timing issue of your podcast. What. What's a story that I would think belongs in your podcast that you don't do because of timing or because of topic? What are. What's something that doesn't make the cut that might surprise people?
- [21:59]
Mike Pesca
Well, how I describe it to people is, ideally, it's an op Ed of the air and okay, that's me using these antiquated terms. We were just done talking about.
- [22:11]
Chuck Todd
Talking about.
- [22:11]
Mike Pesca
It understands what an op Ed is. Yeah, but it is a good gist discussion is subtly a debate. It's always a debate. And I'm not taking the other side of the debate. I'm not a partizan. But I want them to explain not just there Are great interviews that the question to be asked and answered is and then what happened or what happened next. That's a great interview. It's not a great gist interview. Great gist interview is why Larry King.
- [22:40]
Chuck Todd
Larry King interviews were that. Yeah, those are Larry King and Charlie Rose I always thought were underrated interviewers because they were so good at just sometimes saying and then what you know.
- [22:52]
Mike Pesca
And why is why is still the best question. But if it's. We don't do a lot of history unless there's an angle to it bringing it up to the present or let's reexamine why people thought that. But I would love to if I had a show that wasn't the gist. I do a ton of history and when we do history podcasts or history interviews people love them. But I do think it's because I'm engaged in a little bit of a debate.
- [23:20]
Chuck Todd
What's. If you had more bandwidth, what's. What would you be doing?
- [23:25]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, that's a great question. I have two shows besides this one but they're sort of shows within a show and one is called Funny. You should mention it's where I interview comedians sort of about their theses. You know, comedians being the new philosophers and we defer to punchlines but insights.
- [23:42]
Chuck Todd
It's been that way for decades. I mean, you know, I've always thought comedians were comedians. Stand up comedians were always the most well read people you'd ever meet. They read more than.
- [23:51]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, a lot of times and a lot of times not formally educated and they felt bad about that. And then they became autodidacts. They're great. I love. I love them. I love the way they think. But I think since you know definitely pre George Carlin and Richard Pryor no one was looking two comedians for inside. And then there were the niche. Yeah and then there was Mort Saul who would read a newspaper on stage. I don't know how funny it was. And then Lenny Bruce and this all changed. But I do think there was a story in the either late night now it must have been the odds where it just quoted Chris Rock as an expert on the black experience. And maybe said comedian Chris Rock. But he was there for his insight. And that's when I said okay, they're. They're pundits now. You know, they're pundits with punchline. So that's one of the shows.
- [24:36]
Chuck Todd
Have you ever done it? Have you ever done stand up comedian?
- [24:39]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, when I was in college I did and so the read my and my kids do it. And the reason that I'm not good at it could be many things. Right. But the big one is a stand up comedian will do. When you see his act, it's like, oh, my God, what fresh insights. But of course, they'd have done this hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times. So I'd rather do a show every day and have a couple of hits and say to myself, you know, if I had more time to work that over, it could be a fantastic, it could be an A plus. But I'd rather have a string of, let's hope, A minuses. This is also one of my problems with. When I worked for npr, I was on. I did mostly sports and I would crank out a lot of stories because when you cover the World Series, you do two stories every day and then you cover the super bowl. And that's great. I love the pace of that. But there was a certain kind of NPR reporter as epitomized by this American Life or Serial where, man, did they love going over their tape. And with a lapidary fineness bringing out that one cut of sound. Some of my best friends are great at this. I had no patience for that. So, yeah, this was the problem with stand up. It's. You really have to work it over and over and over again.
- [25:48]
Chuck Todd
You don't want to be a refiner. You're like sort of an entrepreneur. You want to, you want to be. You want to break the mold quickly type of thing.
- [25:53]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, yeah. Adam Carolla has this great analogy where he says we're either a factory or a warehouse. Right. The factory is putting out content and the warehouse is storing it and maybe crafting it. So he, he sees himself more of a factory. A stand up comedian is more of a warehouse. I'd say maybe a curator if they're really good.
- [26:14]
Chuck Todd
All right, so you do that. What was the other show? The show within a show.
- [26:16]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, it's called Not Even Mad. And this is. There's an interesting backstory there. So I would always listen, I do always listen to all these podcasts and the standard form. If it's not two people inter being interviewed, three guys talking. Not always guys. That's changed a little bit. But let's call it three guys talking and agreeing with each other. Right. It's three guys from the Bulwark or three guys from the Dispatch or three guys from Commentary and three guys from Pod Save America. And I can't. I listen to all these shows and I can't tell you how many times I've listened To I assume you.
- [26:47]
Chuck Todd
You listen to it and speed sped up. One and a half.
- [26:50]
Mike Pesca
Speed.
- [26:50]
Chuck Todd
Yeah.
- [26:51]
Mike Pesca
Two and a half. Two points.
- [26:53]
Chuck Todd
Two and a half. Wow.
- [26:54]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, wow. And the app, my app of choice also cuts out silences. We could listen, by the way, much faster than we do. So. Yes. So maybe you've had this, this thought. Also, I listened to the three people at the commentary podcast talking about whatever they're talking about. And John Pot Horowitz makes a good point. And then I'll listen to the three guys at Pod Save America talk about what they are talking about. And luckily it's another John, you know, Jon Lovett or Jon Favreau makes a good point. But Favreau and Lovett are always agreeing with each other. And Pod Horowitz and his guys are always agreeing. Why? What if we took a Lovett and put him next to a pot horse? So this was my idea, right? This is my idea to have a liberal and a conservative talk. And the first iteration of it didn't really work because of, well, it was called Not Even Mad, but there was a little bit of madness. And so now instead of. I do think that for these shows to have a lot of traction, you get to know the host and the panelists, and that would be ideal. But I'm just changing panelists every week. And it's.
- [27:54]
Chuck Todd
Boy, that it's a tough. I'm, I'm rooting for you on that. But the algorithms really fight you on that. Yes, it really is hard. I mean, look, I'm watching this myself, right. I'm trying to build a specific. I do not want to pick a side. Right. Megyn Kelly made a decision and she built a big audience quickly. That's a, that's one way to do it. I kind of want to, you know, I sort of believe in the. I want to get it. I'm going to do it my way and, and hopefully it'll be a more durable audience. It's actually what worked for me on Twitter versus the way others did it. And, and so I, I've, I'm, I'm mindful of that. But I, Our just. The distribution models don't reward left this left. Right. It's hard to find an audience that says they, they, they, they want that. And it's. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know whether that's the algorithms speaking or whether that's reality.
- [28:48]
Mike Pesca
I do think it's mostly reality. I think the algorithms figured out what works because the audience told them. And I think that there's a niche for it. But it is a niche and I hope you come to dominate the niche. And I've got my little toehold in the.
- [29:03]
Chuck Todd
Really, it's all niches. You're right.
- [29:04]
Mike Pesca
Really.
- [29:05]
Chuck Todd
You're right. Yeah, it's a series of them, I do think.
- [29:07]
Mike Pesca
I think it's mostly like when you listen to a radio station. Remember, kids, there was a thing called radio. There's no radio station that plays a little country, a little hip hop and a little classic rock. You have to have a format. And the format of podcasts is this is a conservative podcast. This is a liberal podcast. The exception are the ones that are neither liberal or conservative, but are actually more radical than either. Maybe not consistently left and right, but I think, you know, Sargar and Breaking Points, Crystal Ball, that's in that category. Maybe you, I guess you could dub them, you know, far left, but so far left that there's a lot of right to them. But they also have a consistent. Yeah. Consistent format. And we'll be back with more of my appearance on the Chuck Todd cast in a minute.
- [29:59]
Chuck Todd
Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of network's busy taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com this episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Between two factor authentication, strong passwords and a VPN, you try to be in control of how your info is protected. But many other places also have it and they might not be as careful. That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast for 40% off. Terms apply.
- [31:02]
Mike Pesca
We're back with Mike Pesca me as the guest and Chuck Todd, host of the Chuck Todd cast. And he was just sitting out there for him. I hope you enjoy the rest of the interview.
- [31:13]
Chuck Todd
Well, look, I, I look, I think I don't want to do too much more on, on sort of the business of what we're doing, but it does feel like you, you have such a knowledge of this and you've been. Are you, you know, are you one of those folks? Do you think, is there more change in the next five years or less of it? You know, we're all preparing for radical transformation and usually sometimes if everybody's betting on that, it sometimes doesn't become self fulfilling.
- [31:41]
Mike Pesca
Right. In terms of media, in terms of politics, in terms of what media?
- [31:45]
Chuck Todd
More media. In terms of media.
- [31:47]
Mike Pesca
I would expect, I would expect there to be a lot of change. I would expect AI to change things greatly. I would. We got into this place where there used to be a lot of inefficiencies and now there's a war on inefficiency and it's working. But you know, inefficiency in many systems is a really good thing. Like if the, in the animal kingdom inefficiency is a mutt and by the way, are the healthiest dogs.
- [32:12]
Chuck Todd
That's right. And what's, it's funny you say that, you know why our voting system is so secure? Because it's inefficient, because it's methodical, because there's these paper ballots that have to follow this. And if we. It is actually something that's completely inefficient. But if you made it efficient, you'd actually send a message of, of lack of confidence in the system. We wouldn't trust it.
- [32:38]
Mike Pesca
I'm going to give you, I'm going.
- [32:39]
Chuck Todd
To give you one right. Which makes it more trustworthy.
- [32:41]
Mike Pesca
I'll tell you one right in your wheelhouse. So in the, as I'm probably telling you something, you know, but 80 years ago, the political science movement du jour started by and led by a Shat Schneider was we have these political parties and they're inefficient. It really got the political scientists upset. The parties need to sort according to ideology. It doesn't make sense to have all these conservatives in the Democratic Party. Then that happened. Not because the political scientists said it, but this is what the political scientists wanted. And it was a total be careful wish for.
- [33:20]
Chuck Todd
Oh yes, I talk about this all the time.
- [33:22]
Mike Pesca
Efficient sorting. Yeah.
- [33:24]
Chuck Todd
Oh, 100%. The lack of ideological diversity inside the two parties. I mean, you and I grew up with liberal Republicans working with conservative Democrats, with the populist Democrats of the Midwest working.
- [33:41]
Mike Pesca
From when FDR had to work it out with Theodore Bilbo and the very conservative Democrats.
- [33:46]
Chuck Todd
But I, you know, I grew up with a, with a. Basically a conservative Democrat who left the party and would say well, Sam Nunn would be a Republican in New York. Would be always, he would always say that like, you know, that's why I like, because I'd always say, I thought, Dad, I thought you're Republican. He said, well, Sam Nunn would be a Republican if he were in Iowa or to be a Republican, you know, he's just a Democrat in the south because you have to be in order to vote. Right. Because at the time there was no, there weren't many registered Republicans. So it is. But you're right, I think that lack of ideological, you know, the conservative Democrats and liberal Republicans are extinct. And that's what we miss. Yes, I think that's our system.
- [34:24]
Mike Pesca
And I was just in, I was just in Seattle and I was spending some time with a very top political consultant. And he's. Because he makes a living, he's a Democrat. I don't have to say he's a Democrat, Seattle. But he bemoans the fact that the Republican Party is pretty much non existent and all they could do is run some protest candidates who are way out there ideologically and never have a chance for winning. This is another pretty bad aspect of.
- [34:51]
Chuck Todd
Monopolies are bad for. Monopolies are bad for economies. Duopolies are not great for economies, but monopolies are worse. And what's, what's a, what's a polite what? You know, the political economy that has become a monopoly in rural America for red and a monopoly in urban America for blue has been bad for the voters. It's just been bad. It's been bad for diversity of thought, it's been bad for new ideas. You know, and it's a, that's a problem.
- [35:20]
Mike Pesca
And your other business or your main business, which is media, has been waylaid by efficiency because a newspaper used to have all these advertisements. And the point is, you knew you were throwing away 90% of your advertising dollar and everyone who took out a want ad knew that 99.9% of the people weren't in the market for a boat. So it's this inefficient way of hitting a lot of people. Then when the Internet and especially the Google algorithm got really efficient, great for advertising, pointless for newspapers. They were left with maybe cars and supermarkets and not even that because you're only in the mood to buy a car once every seven years. Yeah. So efficiency. So to go back to your answer, we're going to get more efficient. There's no way that the media ecosystem is not going to get more efficient. And from what I see, efficiency More often has costs than benefits, except for the very specific person who is served by the efficiency.
- [36:21]
Chuck Todd
All right, I got to ask about the comic books, because if you look carefully, you look carefully behind me. The Roy Campanella is actually a portrait of one of his baseball cards from the. From tops in the early, early 50s. I'm a baseball card guy. Are you a comic guy?
- [36:40]
Mike Pesca
I'm probably more of a baseball card guy. But you know what? I am. I may. I just moved my parents out of the house that not only they lived in for 50 years, that I was literally born in the driveway of. And so now I have the. All these baseball cards and comic books that I got to sell because I have no room. So when you have no room for something, you put a Howard the Duck comic on the wall. I do like Howard the Duck.
- [37:04]
Chuck Todd
Nice, Nice. Well, I worked.
- [37:06]
Mike Pesca
I worked at a baseball card store. That was my first job. And it was the era of Matt. I guess I learned about bitcoin then because Kevin Seitzer rookies were selling for, like, $70, if you remember.
- [37:17]
Chuck Todd
It's funny. I'm so glad you referred to it as bitcoin, because that's been. My analogy is, tell me how it's not like I have these Mike. I have a stack of Mike Trout rookie cards. Can I. Can I buy something with them directly? No. I've got to trade it in for cash, and then I can spend. What's the difference between my Mike Trout baseball card and bitcoin? And when you throw that out there at a crypto person and it's like, you know, it's probably the same thing.
- [37:47]
Mike Pesca
Yeah. And then if you get into blockchain, I don't know. Ray Fosse blocking the plate chain. I don't know what our analogy could be, but, yeah, I remember I was listening on npr and then the beginning of the Ukraine war, there was a story about how it's funded via bitcoin. And isn't it great that bitcoin can get this money to the Ukrainian fighters? Like, that seems much less efficient than a bank account. Like, I understand you have this interesting thing in the news called the Ukraine, the war on Ukraine. And then you have this thing called bitcoin. I think there are more layers in between than a just bank account that works.
- [38:23]
Chuck Todd
Look, I do. I accept the premise It's a little bit easier to hide money. And when you're funding a war and an insurgency, you need to hide stuff. Okay, I get that. The block. Maybe that's the. The what's helpful In a moment. But most of the time, if you're, if you're something that is able to hide transactions or money, that's usually not a net positive for society. That's usually a net.
- [38:46]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, that, that is true. I mean, my suspicion is mostly, and by the way, I've have lost out on a lot of money because of my suspicion. But there are two things that these cryptocurrencies are supposed to do, and they're at exact odds with each other. Right. This is almost like Donald Trump. The great thing about tariffs is that they will both give us money in the treasury and suppress trade. No, they can't do both. But the one thing they're supposed to do is be a great store of value. I get the intellectual case for that. But the other thing, why everyone loves them is they're going up to the moon. Now, nothing that doubles or triples in value is a great store of value if it's always. If it's also being traded as the priciest commodity ever made. So that.
- [39:29]
Chuck Todd
Yeah, no, I mean, like I, I remember as a kid growing up when I think the Hunt brothers tried to corner the silver market thinking it was an underutilized commodity. And it's, I, this just feels like it's going to end badly. And the question is how many Americans are going to get stuck holding the crypto bag when this happens? Because we know the super wealthy are going to, are not going to be the ones holding the bag. It's going to be the everyday people.
- [39:52]
Mike Pesca
Yeah.
- [39:52]
Chuck Todd
Just, you know, the crazy housing.
- [39:54]
Mike Pesca
So there's an example. Would you, would you say that in that way when your first name was Meat?
- [40:02]
Chuck Todd
That's interesting. So I feel like. No, because, you know, I would be, you know, then I would be blamed for, you know, some other entities, inability to book. So. And so. Or I came across.
- [40:15]
Mike Pesca
Oh, that's the consideration. Yeah.
- [40:16]
Chuck Todd
And so you worry about that. And it's like I will just say I, you know, I would sometimes speak out on some things and then someone would say, hey, we're trying to book so and so, you know, try not to do that again type of mindset. And it's like, look, I'm a team player and I get it.
- [40:32]
Mike Pesca
Right.
- [40:33]
Chuck Todd
You know, look, you know, this, this balance between, you know, I'm always careful. I don't respect access, only journalists, but I respect the need for access. Right. There's a, there's a fine line between that and. I think you can. A good journalist draws a distinction. But, but sort of. I, I kind of view it similarly on that. So I understand it from that. But I certainly feel better about not asking permission. Right. And I know. So, for instance, like, I've, I've been very, I've been very straightforward, but I've been tough on Biden's for the Bidens for a couple years and, you know, they wouldn't return any of my calls. Well, I understood that. Like, I made it, you know, like, and that's okay. I don't, they don't have credibility with me, so why would I want to interview them anyway? So I'm okay with that. And I think that that's sort of. That's that if you're going to burn something, you better feel comfortable burning it.
- [41:28]
Mike Pesca
Yeah. As an example, I don't know if they're the best example of someone who will punish a journalist for not doing the story they want because they were in the mode of we only want to talk to one or two people. They were very much in the mode of our way. Our theory of the case is to do almost no interviews. And when we do maybe do it on Morning Joe. I think your listeners to the, to the Chuck Todd cast get this. But what. Maybe people don't. When they criticize you for being. Or when they question your partisanship and are you able to be partisan? You and I have opinions and strong opinions. But you know what? Wake us up in the middle of the night. I think this is true for you. I know it's true for me.
- [42:11]
Chuck Todd
Yeah.
- [42:12]
Mike Pesca
The thing I won't be shouting is you got to vote for this guy. That's not where my strong opinions lie. It's more like looking at a system and we're being crazy when it comes to whatever it is MMT or funding.
- [42:26]
Chuck Todd
Well, look, I. Look my rant. Look my, the current podcast that I have up one of them. My rant this morning was, you know, was how poorly Trump and Musk executed Doge. But the idea was a really good one and there was a better way to do this and sort of like it actually was empowering because I realized this is what, what you do, I think extraordinarily well and what I hope to. To. To do better, which is explain why. Look, I, you know, this is. The criticism is in execution. The criticism isn't in ideology and.
- [43:02]
Mike Pesca
Right.
- [43:02]
Chuck Todd
And so my biggest criticisms of Trump are execution. This is just a terribly incompetent administration in just doing the basics. Doesn't mean his ideas. I'd like to see more manufacturing back in America. There is a systematic way I had Oren Cass on the way. He would have implemented this tariff regimen, might have had a better shot at triggering better trade deals and not shaking up the markets. But that's not the way Donald Trump did it. He did it in an incompetent way, making government more efficient and more modern. We need to update the infrastructure of government the same way. You've. You can't have the same bridge that you're going over from the 1950s with today's traffic patterns. It's the same thing with various government agencies. But Doge was a poorly executed version of this. And in fact, the dirty little secret is Doge will cost the American taxpayer more money than it saved because of all the lawsuits, all the restoration of benefits, all the restoration of contracts that got un. Unconstitutionally paying people for 90 days not.
- [44:07]
Mike Pesca
To work and then filling them in. And then.
- [44:09]
Chuck Todd
So we've just cost us.
- [44:10]
Mike Pesca
Great.
- [44:11]
Chuck Todd
And yet the irony is you'd had bipartisan buy in. There was a whole bunch of Democrats. I mean, this is what really frustrates me about the, the mindset of Trump and Maga, which is they won now, will never work with the other side. When every other president of my lifetime said, hey, you know, the best way for me to be to, to get something done is to. And, and it's sort of two motivations. One, I can divide the other party by getting some of them to work with me. And it, guess what? It helps me in the macro. It's better for the country. Oh, and I divide my opponent. Like it's, it's, it's a, you're still, you know, but it's an effective way to, to still be partizan, but maybe doing it through the prism of the best interest of the country versus Trump, who's refusing to work with Democrats just fired, you know, you know, and you're like, dude, there's a whole bunch of Democrats that want to prove that they do want to work with you, take advantage of it, and your inability is on you. You're in. And guess what? You're now going to just drive people away. This is why his approval rating is already under 45. It's. He refuses to be president for all the people.
- [45:17]
Mike Pesca
He just does his great, his great skill is at diagnosing the problem. And then he has no interest, in fact, a negative interest in actually solving the problem. And I think that, no, he'd rather.
- [45:28]
Chuck Todd
Have the problem to use as a cudgel. Yeah.
- [45:32]
Mike Pesca
But one of the things that makes him so good at diagnosing the Problem. This is what he's been doing for 50 years as a salesman. You know, every innovation is what problem does it solve? So he'll put his finger on the problem. He'll put it in a more vivid way than anyone else in politics and have absolutely no interest in solving it. But I do think the knowledge of how hard these problems to solve holds a lot of Democrats and some Republicans back. It would be great to just point your finger to the problem of infrastructure and say, infrastructure, it's the other guy's fault. But no, infrastructure is a giant lift. Once you know that, maybe you don't speak as starkly about it as Donald Trump does. So I do think the more you know about the problem sometimes, the more it gets in the way of actually solving it. You know who I did this? Pretty much the same segment, but I did it in a different way. Through an interview as we're recording, I had Aneesh Chopra on. He was the first ever Chief Technology Officer of the United States. And he ran, essentially ran the office that became Doge. And we just talked about. So tell me he didn't do it in the style that you did. I understand Elon had a hat and a chainsaw and you wore a suit, but what were the things that he did that you liked? And we had a very good conversation. It was very constructive. He talked about a lot of the things that he admired that Doge actually did. He made a couple of points, one explicitly and one by inference. The point he made explicitly is, you know, he could have come up with more savings if he was, or that office was as prioritized by the Clint. By the Obama administration as Doge was. Right? So president, presidential bandwidth and mental time. That counts for a lot. And so Obama was doing other things and he wanted this as a backstop. He'd never be able to achieve the actual cuts, not even the minuses that that Elon did. But also as I was talking to him, I just said to myself, yes, you know what you are? You're reasonable. You look at the net benefits, right? You definitely don't have a chainsaw and a hat. And that alone is not holding you back. But the way that Anishopra would have done it, he could have gotten billions more in savings and we would have known a billionth of what he did. There was no PR aspect. It's almost negative pr.
- [47:55]
Chuck Todd
Yeah, well, that's. I mean, that goes back to. I mean, you know, it. It's amazing to me how many people don't learn the lesson from Trump, I mean, have you noticed, like, what, what to me, like, the brilliance of Trump 2015 was he was, he'd go anywhere, he would interview with anybody, he didn't care, and he sat down with everybody. I've not seen a Democrat implement that same strategy, not once.
- [48:20]
Mike Pesca
And you're like, that guy comes close, right? He jumps, ran.
- [48:24]
Chuck Todd
And by the way, who, who got traction out of nowhere.
- [48:27]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, Buttigieg.
- [48:29]
Chuck Todd
Right. Why? Because he was showing up at. Everywhere. Everywhere, Right. He was willing to show up everywhere. So it is weird to me how long it's taken. You know, there's such this, this anger, this, you know, it's, it's funny. It's like there is people on the left who view Trump the same way as society views Hitler. And I know that the minute I bring up the H word, like, people start tuning out. But the point is, is that, you know, there is no praising any idea Hitler ever had because it was all in service to something grotesque. Right, Right. You know, the Democrats, I think sometimes too often look at Trump and saying, if he's for it, we have to be against it because his ends, everything he does. And you're just sitting there going, you know, there's ways to learn from him without emulating him. And I don't, you know, it, it is. And I don't know why. I don't, I don't know whether we blame Internet culture for this. Right. Where, where too many of politicians today are so responsive to the moment that they actually can't take a step back and see the big picture. I don't, I don't know. I wish I had a better answer as to why Democrats have had such a hard time learning what has made Trump work. There's some parts of this that work and they ought to learn.
- [49:44]
Mike Pesca
I think Democrats, especially when they were ascendant, their skill set, what their, what success in the party selected for was the ability to relentlessly stay on message and not make a mistake. And it's the, and this was what Obama was great at. And you could see that this was what Kamala Harris, this was her theory, even if she didn't articulate is how she operated. Trump's the opposite. Mistakes don't matter. Mistakes probably help them and there is no message. But I do think because of our fractured media society and because of podcasting and long form podcasting and the fact that an audio interview could go an hour and a half, I think that old Obama way of don't make a mistake and get your three messages, message points of the Day out. I think that's done. And I don't know that the Democrats have realized that the other thing is the things that Trump does. Well, we were just talking about Doge, you know, Democrats, you said Democrats would love to cut. Would they? I think probably in their heart of hearts, a few would, maybe many would. But in terms of the salience of the issue, it's not 1, 2, or maybe you're right.
- [50:50]
Chuck Todd
And I mean, I may be hearing about a Democratic Party 10 years ago and that maybe that one doesn't exist because, you know, not every answer is government. But I do think a growing number of Democratic officeholders believe that it is.
- [51:02]
Mike Pesca
Well, one thing that I support Trump on is the elimination of pennies. And I've been talking about this on my show for five, 10 years. And every time a presidential candidate or a senator, anyone else will come through, I would ask them, why do we still make the penny? What do you think about the elimination of pennies? And I asked many senators about this. I asked Michael Bennett, I asked Pete Buttigieg, and every single one of them was interested in the idea, but they were all hesitant to just sign on to the obvious. They all claim they hadn't thought of it before, and I believe them. They were all unbelievably cautious in embracing the riskiness of eliminating the penny. And, you know, Donald Trump, sure, he gets himself in trouble with much more consequential items like, yeah, maybe we should arrest doctors if they give an abortion. But he definitely would have said, oh, yeah, penny stupid.
- [51:54]
Chuck Todd
No.
- [51:54]
Mike Pesca
And that's the right answer, by the way.
- [51:57]
Chuck Todd
Look, do you think Kamala Harris would be negotiating with Iran right now?
- [52:01]
Mike Pesca
No, I do.
- [52:02]
Chuck Todd
I mean, you know, so I sit there and it's like, now, am I troubled that the. What's motivating Trump to do this is his business deals and the. With the Gulf guys. Yeah, I'm troubled by the motivation of it. But at the same time, sometimes you need some pragmatism has to be the coin of the realm in the Middle east, or you're not going to have any stability in the Middle East. And I, I say stability, not peace. I actually think there's a difference. And, you know, so, you know, these are the things that the left needs to realize why the public is more tolerant of Trump than they are. Because on some of these things, Trump's behaving no different than what I think they think anybody in that position should be behaving, which is, hey, sometimes you got to make deals with people. You don't like, and that there's not, you know, that's, that's real politik. So it, it is, it, it is interesting to me how, and I think what's going to be interesting is that, that if Democrats do win the presidency in 28, my assumption, it's because somebody has learned those lessons. If they have a nominee that hasn't learned those lessons are not going to win in 28.
- [53:10]
Mike Pesca
Oh, we'll have to be. Have to be.
- [53:13]
Chuck Todd
Yeah.
- [53:13]
Mike Pesca
And I think everyone who's running is positioning themselves as the guy who's learned the lessons. And I think they all have a different version of it.
- [53:20]
Chuck Todd
Right.
- [53:21]
Mike Pesca
Gavin Newsom is, I talked to Michael Savage and contradicted, you know, 12 years of my, my record. And I think Tim Walls is. I'm that regular guy who code talks. Comes off as a little clunky.
- [53:33]
Chuck Todd
I think if you're caught trying too hard, you're just that, trying too hard. Let me close out with this. Since you're a recovering sports reporter and I'm, I spent a brief period, I helped found a sports business publication back in the early 90s, so I guess I can claim some stint in the sports reporting world. I do view sports as sort of the last bastion of our culture that can bring us together. Like, I have this thesis that I can, that, that the, that I can make youth sports and high school sports the revenue stream that classified advertising was to support local news. That in the long term, that, that could be. I think when you look at, you know, a live event, a sporting event can bring red and blue together better. I mean, the NFL's the king of all of it. And yet coverage of sports is becoming more partisan and more. You're starting to see there's conservative sports guys and there's liberal sports guys. Where's this headed? Is sports going to become as polarizing as politics because of the nature of how independent media works, or will it continue to be the last piece of glue we have in society?
- [54:48]
Mike Pesca
I think sports themselves are going to continue to be the glue. The talking about sports is definitely going to fracture along the lines that you're talking about, but the sports themselves. Take Caitlyn Clark. She can be the epitome of everything that a progressive believes in. And she could also be the epitome of everything that a conservative says is good about the country. Right.
- [55:12]
Chuck Todd
She's one of the best. She's my favorite Rorschach test in America of these days. Right. Like, yeah, I can learn a lot about somebody by how they feel about Caitlin Clark.
- [55:20]
Mike Pesca
Right. Look at what she's done as a woman. Look at what she's done for women's sports. Look at how she's unapologetic or look at how a dad and daughter work together. Look at all the hard work. Look at all the teamwork. So Caitlyn's going to be Caitlyn and is when she comes back from her quad injury, is going to be converting these 25 footers. She'll be the thing and then everything around it can talk about her however they want.
- [55:43]
Chuck Todd
Right. But it is sort of, I am hopeful that we can stay glue. But you know, I will say, you know, I, you know, I am a little concerned that a few sports are, the participants are all lean one way. Like it's tough to be a liberal golfer and it's tough to be a conservative NBA player. Right.
- [56:05]
Mike Pesca
Well, I know examples of both and I think it's much less tough. I could speak, I know that golfers, I think, I think 12 years ago I read a story that there were no registered Democrats on the, on the tour. But I know that especially among conservative or people who are, are not orthodoxly progressive among the NBA, much easier than it was during the days of the bubble and the lockdown.
- [56:29]
Chuck Todd
Oh, that's interesting. I find it interesting. You know, Bruce Pearl is fascinating to me because I, you don't see a lot of college basketball coaches being so political, I think for fear it would harm recruiting. Right. Now he's political on one story and on one issue though, I notice he's every once in a while he'll, he'll just do regular politics but for the most part he sticks to just Israel and obviously it hadn't had any impact. Right. Auburn's had two and terrific and the fact they're, they're, he's turned them more into a basketball school than they've ever been, even in the Charles Barkley days.
- [57:07]
Mike Pesca
Right.
- [57:08]
Chuck Todd
But, but it is, I, I, that that stuff fascinates me and I, I am very curious because you also see it, you know, certain in college football, certain coaches, if they're believers on a religious front almost then do better with other believers. Right. And it's almost how they recruit is through that prism. And it is still interesting to me that how much college football does work that way and not, and people are, are not quite aware of that.
- [57:39]
Mike Pesca
Right. Bobby Banham was a great example of that. There are many others. But I do think Bruce Pearl, I think the team responds to it. You know, there's a lot of inspiration there and he brought these, this hostage family to the Final four and they were eventually freed. I also think that Steve Kerr, okay, I know they're professional but Kerr and Popovich were. Are very vocal. Popovich was on the progressive side. And I think what people respond to.
- [58:07]
Chuck Todd
You think Kerr would be that way in Indianapolis versus San Francisco be with a coach in Indiana?
- [58:12]
Mike Pesca
I think so because I think people respond to his conviction, the strength of his conviction. I don't think Most of these 20 something year olds really have strong. They might have inclinations but they don' political opinions to begin with. And when they see see Kerr as interpersonally they respect him and therefore they respect the stances that he takes. He also, you know, it's very important that in all of these cases no one is taking really outlandish, outre, dangerous everyone. You could always criticize everyone in someone's eyes as doing that. But I think they are sticking mostly to, you know, the factual basis of their arguments and doing it with conviction and responsibility.
- [58:55]
Chuck Todd
And I think you just said the same. I mean in some ways Bruce Pearl and Steve Kerr both have that they speak with such a conviction on the singular topic. Right. Particularly current on. On gun reform. Pearl on, on. On the Israeli hostages. That, that if you, you know, if it's deeply held. I think in some ways even people that don't agree with you will respect it. Right to that. Let me get you out of here on this. Which is an expression Tony Kornheiser uses and I love it it. And it's. And it's simply this. What's three or four things you read every day that peop that most people would be shocked to know that you read every day in order to like what's your. Not to give away any secrets, but you're clearly a pretty well read in person. You have a diversity of interests. You know, I thought I had a diversity of interests. You're times a thousand. And in fact I'm very jealous of your newsletter at times because I'm like yeah, you, you literally have, I think have created a newsletter of just your interests. And you're just like if you have my interest then you'll enjoy my newsletter, period.
- [59:57]
Mike Pesca
This is, this is the newsletter, the just list which I probably should have.
- [60:00]
Chuck Todd
Plugged, which really is just my stuff. Right. It's the pescalist, you know, right. What's, what's a couple of things you read in on every day that is just. That just nourishes you to a point. You're like everybody should be reading this And I know they don't.
- [60:12]
Mike Pesca
Don't. Right. So I will say the New York Times, which doesn't surprise. Won't surprise everyone. The Financial Times is fantastic. I think the financial press overall is. I don't know if the last bastion, but they're much more truthful and honest. And least.
- [60:27]
Chuck Todd
It's the least partisan. It certainly has an ideology, but it's less.
- [60:31]
Mike Pesca
I don't think they're trying to convince you of anything other than this is really the story. And so Bloomberg and the Economist are things that I'm happy to spend subscription money on. And then I also read the Nikkei Reports from Japan just to get some interesting kind of funny news. I read another newsletter put together by Walt Hickey called Numlock. He's been doing it for so many years. I love that newsletter. I avowed never to steal an item, but I steal his sources or I see where he's getting.
- [61:04]
Chuck Todd
And then you're like, I'm gonna start reading that source. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- [61:07]
Mike Pesca
That's how I got kneecap day. And then I read. I. I read Eric Zorn, who does a thing called the Picun Sentinel. He used to be the best columnist of the Chicago Tribune. And the Tribune's been decimated. Zor is. Zorn is awesome. And especially my sister lives in Chicago. I'm fascinated by Chicago. I have a few.
- [61:27]
Chuck Todd
Like the last. He was like the replacement for Royco, wasn't he? And he was sort of like the last of his kind.
- [61:33]
Mike Pesca
I think there's like a direct line there there. Yes, I think he's in that lineage. Although, you know, I think everyone probably who is a columnist at the Tribune, like John Cass and all these guys were kind of anti Roycos, would say, I'm the, I'm the last Royco and Bob Green, there was another controversial figure. What a paper. What a paper that is now a husk of itself. And there's a building in Chicago called the Tribune Building. And I bet people don't even know there's a newspaper associated with it.
- [61:59]
Chuck Todd
Some of the papers that didn't survive, I, I just. That one, you know, but there's.
- [62:04]
Mike Pesca
I mean, it's there, but.
- [62:06]
Chuck Todd
Sure. But like Boston Globes the same way. Like, it was. Wow. It was like a.
- [62:10]
Mike Pesca
More of a mate sports section. The. The Globe sports section. Oh, my God, everyone. No section. The Post. The Post style section. There was a. That was a great compendium of greatness. Yeah.
- [62:24]
Chuck Todd
And now, boy, the Post both are just, you know, they're, they're. They're not what they used to be. Mike, this was a pleasure. You're, like I said, you're a pioneer in the space and you've. You, you, you, you have an originality that, you know, you can't. It. It's hard to emulate. And I think that, for me, feels like the key to your success.
- [62:48]
Mike Pesca
Well, thanks. Thanks, Todd.
- [62:50]
Chuck Todd
All right. Pesca. Yeah, I use Italian for fish. I mean, is it that simple? You grew up as a fish.
- [62:58]
Mike Pesca
The name of the production company is Peach Fish Productions because Italian, pesca is peach, but peche is fish. So it's peach fish.
- [63:07]
Chuck Todd
Oh, that's funny. I like that. I like, I love a good sort of naming origin that does stuff like that with words and language. That's awesome, Mike. Appreciate the time.
- [63:18]
Mike Pesca
Oh, thank you so much. And that's it for today's show. Corey Wara produces the gist. Astrid Green does our socials. Kathleen Sykes, she's the editor of the Gist list. Ashley Khan is the production coordinator for the gist. Michelle Pesca does all that she sees. She sits over that and calls the shots and moves the chess pieces. Leo Baums are our intern. He's very good with coming up with databases. Data's base improve. Thanks for listening. The gist is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.