Podcast Summary: The Gist – "Code Name: Pale Horse — Scott Payne vs. the American Reich"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Gist
• Host/Author: Peach Fish Productions (Mike Pesca)
• Episode: Code Name: Pale Horse — Scott Payne vs. the American Reich
• Release Date: March 27, 2025

1. Introduction and Episode Overview

In this compelling episode of The Gist, host Mike Pesca delves into the intricate world of undercover operations against extremist groups in America. The episode intertwines discussions on economic policies, specifically Donald Trump's 25% tariffs on autos, with an in-depth interview featuring Michelle Shepherd, co-author of Scott Payne’s book, Code Name: Pale Horse. The episode also critically examines media coverage of a subway shooting incident, highlighting discrepancies and biases.

2. Economic Policies: Trump's Tariffs on Autos

The episode opens with a discussion on Donald Trump's 25% tariffs on automobiles. Scott Payne provides a critical analysis of these tariffs, emphasizing their broader economic repercussions beyond immediate inflationary effects.

Notable Quotes:

• Donald Trump [01:37]:

  "So we'll effectively be charging a 25% tariff. But if you build your car in the United States, there is no tariff."

• Scott Payne [02:00]:

  "Tariffs will raise prices for consumers who still regard inflation as one of their number one issues."

Payne argues that while tariffs might incentivize domestic production, they inadvertently displace more efficient economic activities. Citing a Purdue paper, he illustrates how shifting production from highly efficient industries (like airplane manufacturing) to less efficient ones (like shoe manufacturing) can lead to a decline in overall productivity.

Key Insights:

• Second and Third Order Effects: Tariffs may benefit specific sectors but can disrupt the optimal allocation of resources across the economy.
• Long-Term Economic Impact: Payne expresses skepticism about the long-term benefits of tariffs, suggesting that the economic downturn caused by tariffs outweighs the short-term gains for certain industries.

3. In-Depth Interview with Michelle Shepherd (Scott Payne’s Co-Author)

The heart of the episode features an extensive interview with Michelle Shepherd, Scott Payne’s co-author and a retired FBI special agent. Shepherd provides a firsthand account of her experiences infiltrating Neo-Nazi groups, offering profound insights into the psychological and operational challenges of undercover work.

a. Motivation and Background

Shepherd discusses her personal motivations for joining law enforcement, highlighting a combination of ideological commitment and inherent personality traits.

Notable Quotes:

• Michelle Shepherd [08:21]:

  "South Carolina. Greenville, South Carolina. At the sheriff's office there."

• Shepherd [08:57]:

  "It's definitely my personality. Not saying you're be all end all or I'm some tough guy, but I have that kind of... a calling."

b. Transition from Law Enforcement Roles

Shepherd elaborates on her transition from roles such as a strip club bouncer to becoming an FBI agent, emphasizing the similarities in managing high-stress environments and utilizing soft power to de-escalate potential conflicts.

Notable Quotes:

• Shepherd [11:11]:

  "You really start working on that kind of verbal judo."

• Shepherd [12:51]:

  "When there's nobody naked running around the place... what you really have to do is manage the situation verbally."

c. Psychological Impact and Ethical Dilemmas

A significant portion of the interview delves into the psychological toll of undercover operations, particularly the ethical dilemma of forming genuine bonds with individuals who are eventually exposed as threats.

Notable Quotes:

• Shepherd [17:38]:

  "The true definition of undercover work is you're building relationships that you're going to betray."

• Shepherd [19:33]:

  "Every part of the United States, there's different districts... we need to figure out what they do want."

d. Strategies and Techniques

Shepherd discusses the strategies employed to maintain cover and effectively gather intelligence without crossing legal or ethical boundaries. She emphasizes the importance of mirroring behaviors and language to gain trust within extremist groups.

Notable Quotes:

• Shepherd [22:21]:

  "If you look at it that way, it paints a pretty dim picture, and it's not great."

• Shepherd [22:58]:

  "Generally, undercover work is about making the bad guys think it's a normal day."

e. Balancing Personal Identity with Undercover Persona

Addressing the challenge of maintaining personal identity while adopting an undercover persona, Shepherd reveals how she aligns her real-life personality traits with her undercover roles to avoid slipping up or becoming someone she’s not.

Notable Quotes:

• Shepherd [20:17]:

  "I've been lying my whole life. But that doesn't mean you can't trust me."

• Shepherd [21:50]:

  "I pull on real life experiences and use those in those stories."

4. Critical Analysis of Media Coverage: The Subway Shooting Incident

Beyond the interview, Mike Pesca investigates a subway shooting incident involving Darrell Nichols, critiquing how major media outlets, particularly WNYC, misrepresented the facts surrounding the event.

a. Incident Overview

The incident involved Nichols entering a subway station with a knife, multiple fare evasions, and a subsequent shooting that resulted in the deaths of Nichols and two bystanders, as well as injuries to a police officer.

Notable Quotes:

• Mike Pesca [27:02]:

  "He was tased. That didn't work. Still brandishing the knife, he charged at police. Then he was shot."

b. Media Misrepresentation

Pesca highlights inaccuracies in media reporting, such as WNYC's misinformation regarding the legality of carrying knives on the subway and the actual cause of the shooting.

Notable Quotes:

• Mike Pesca [28:17]:

  "Mickels likely won't face charges of criminal possession of a weapon because the knife he had was legal to carry."

• Scott Payne [29:33]:

  "It's not true that it is legal to carry."

c. Implications of Inaccurate Reporting

Pesca argues that such inaccuracies hinder the public's ability to accurately assess safety versus over-policing, thereby affecting informed voting and public opinion.

Notable Quotes:

• Mike Pesca [34:19]:

  "We won't and can't easily know how to navigate that."

5. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

In wrapping up, Mike Pesca underscores the complexities of tackling right-wing extremism and the challenges posed by misleading media narratives. He emphasizes the importance of accurate reporting and informed public discourse to effectively address both economic policies and extremist threats.

Final Quotes:

• Mike Pesca [34:27]:

  "Good luck to him and to all of us."

• Mike Pesca [34:27]:

  "You could go there. You go on my Substack where I probably will put some of this up and engage with some of the commentary."

Key Takeaways:

1. Economic Implications of Tariffs: Tariffs, while beneficial to specific industries, can disrupt overall economic efficiency and lead to unintended negative consequences.

2. Undercover Operations' Complexity: Infiltrating extremist groups requires a delicate balance of maintaining personal identity, ethical considerations, and psychological resilience.

3. Media Accountability: Accurate and objective reporting is crucial for public understanding of safety issues and policy impacts. Misrepresentation can distort public perception and hinder effective solutions.

4. Informed Public Discourse: For citizens to make informed decisions, especially in voting and policy support, access to accurate information and critical analysis is essential.

Conclusion: This episode of The Gist offers a multifaceted exploration of economic policies, undercover law enforcement operations, and media responsibility. Through insightful interviews and critical analysis, Mike Pesca provides listeners with a deeper understanding of the intricate challenges facing American society today.