Conor Heffernan on Why "Ego Is A Transhistorical Phenomenon"

Summary

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Episode Summary: Conor Heffernan on Why "Ego Is A Transhistorical Phenomenon"

Podcast: The Gist by Peach Fish Productions
Host: Mike Pesca
Guest: Conor Patrick Heffernan, author of "When Fitness Went Global"
Date: February 4, 2026
Theme: Exploring the historical and cultural evolution of physical culture, the origins of exercise, the role of ego, and the shift from functional strength to aesthetics.

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Main Theme and Purpose

This episode of The Gist features an engaging exploration of the history of physical culture—the societal and psychological forces that have shaped fitness from ancient stone lifting to modern gym culture. Host Mike Pesca interviews Dr. Conor Patrick Heffernan, a historian and expert on physical culture, about why humans are drawn to showcase and cultivate strength, how ego transcends generations, and what drove the transformation from natural, practical displays of strength to today's regimented and commodified fitness regimes.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Endurance of Ego Through History

• Ego as Universal:
  • "People have always lifted stones to show off their strength. Listen, ego is a transhistorical phenomenon, but also to celebrate strength, celebrate life, honor the dead."
    — Conor Heffernan [12:46]
• Historic Stone Lifting:
  • Stone lifting traces back to ancient Greece, the Basque region, Scotland, Ireland, Iceland, and beyond—demonstrating a deep-rooted, global tradition of showcasing strength.
  • Family traditions in stone lifting persist, even today—Heffernan notes he lifts with his son in graveyards, where historic stones often reside.

2. Transition from Functional Strength to Fitness as Spectacle

• From Funerals to Theatres:
  • In the 19th century, feats of strength moved from funerals and community events to vaudeville and music halls, becoming forms of popular entertainment.
  • Strongmen and strongwomen would lift animals, objects, and even audience members on stage.
• The Birth of Physical Culture:
  • "Something happened in the 19th century where we stopped lifting stones and started lifting barbells and dumbbells, started going to the gym... Why did that happen?"
    — Conor Heffernan [12:46]

3. The Influence of Eugen Sandow

• Proto-Fitness Celebrity:
  • "Sandow is more central to fitness than Schwarzenegger or Fonda because he's the first. He sets up a magazine empire. He sells books around the world."
    — Conor Heffernan [16:20]
• Inventor of Body Ideals:
  • Sandow raised the profile of aesthetics and inspired the shift from functional strength to cultivated beauty: "He creates a worldwide fitness empire before Instagram, before social media, before television."
• Charlatan and Innovator:
  • Despite lifting heavy himself, Sandow sold lightweight dumbbells and dietary supplements with outsized promises, capitalizing on the public's naiveté.
  • Memorable moment:
    • "Sandow built a very muscular, lean, and athletic body lifting heavy weights. But he…sold a lightweight dumbbell...if you just squeeze my dumbbell super duper tight and concentrate with all your force and might, you can build a body like mine."
      — Conor Heffernan [19:18]

4. The Creation of Fitness as Industry

• Merchandising and Modeling:
  • Sandow sued copycats, patented his methods, and was measured by medical professionals to legitimize his regime.
  • Early fitness pioneers became health ‘experts’ and lifestyle authorities, selling everything from supplements to corsets.
• Notable Quote:
  • "He was selling a lifestyle which was patented to him. And we know that because when other people sold a similar dumbbell, he sued them into penury."
    — Conor Heffernan [20:43]

5. Body Ideals: Nature vs. Culture

• Greek and Roman Influence:
  • From the 1810s, Western societies propagated ancient Greek and Roman standards of the ‘perfect’ body via art and education.
  • Early bodybuilding icons mimicked classical statue poses, reinforcing ideals through cultural continuity.
  • "They're cued from a very early age that ancient Greece and ancient Rome body standards represent perfection."
    — Conor Heffernan [24:18]
• Medical Legitimization:
  • Figures like Sandow would invite doctors to measure them, leveraging endorsements from science for credibility.

6. Modern Reflections on Fitness and Fads

• From Moderation to Marketing:
  • Early advice often emphasized moderation, but the lure of miracle cures and quick fixes remains perpetual.
• Cynicism and Charlatanism:
  • Heffernan notes that the history of fitness is, in part, a history of selling hopeful illusions, comparing supplement fads from 1900 to today.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Ego is a transhistorical phenomenon."
  — Conor Heffernan [12:46]

• "Remember when things used to be fun and we weren't looks maxing, weight maxing, you know, reaching our potential, etc? It's like, this is fun and I want to try it."
  — Conor Heffernan on stone lifting [11:39]

• "Did Arnold Schwarzenegger have a magazine empire? No. Did Arnold Schwarzenegger have his own medical institute? No. Did Arnold Schwarzenegger travel around...well, yeah, but he did it when there were planes. Sandow did it in 1900!"
  — Conor Heffernan [16:20]

• "At first I was on board, this guy seems like a charlatan. But you didn't tell me he had a chart. I mean, come on, man had a chart."
  — Mike Pesca, on Sandow's sales tactics [20:18]

• "He died in his mid-50s from either brain aneurysm or syphilis, depending on who you ask."
  — Conor Heffernan, on the end of Sandow's mythos [21:36]

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Key Timestamps for Major Segments

• 10:22 — Heffernan introduces physical culture and stone lifting
• 11:39 — The joy and humility of stone lifting
• 12:46 — Ego as a transhistorical phenomenon; why fitness rituals arise
• 14:44 — Transition from functional strength to aesthetics; vaudeville culture
• 16:20 — Eugen Sandow’s impact compared to Schwarzenegger
• 19:18 — The origins of fitness charlatanism—Sandow's dumbbell and supplement marketing
• 20:43 — Sandow's lifestyle branding and litigation against copycats
• 24:18 — Origins of the Western body ideal via classical Greece and Rome

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Tone and Style

Warm, humorous, and inquisitive, the episode weaves playful banter (Pesca’s self-deprecating asides, Heffernan’s wry Irish delivery) with clear-eyed skepticism about the commercialization and mythmaking around fitness culture. The conversation swings from academic insight to stories of graveyard stone lifting and the persistent nature of human ego.

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For Listeners: Why This Episode Stands Out

• Nerdy and relatable: Makes the history of fitness fun—who knew stones in graveyards had such a legacy?
• Debunks myths: Reveals how ‘new’ fitness crazes often recycle old ideas and salesmanship.
• Connects past and present: Ties together ancient Greek sculpture with Instagram body culture, showing the continuity and absurdity of society’s obsession with strength and aesthetics.

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Transcript

[Mike Pesca]

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[Connor Patrick Heffernan]

I'm gonna pull over and ask that man for directions.

[Mike Pesca]

Hi there. We're looking to get to the campground.

[Donald Trump]

Well, you're gonna take a left at the old oak tree end of this.

[Connor Patrick Heffernan]

No, I'm just kidding.

[Donald Trump]

Let me get my phone out.

[Mike Pesca]

How are you getting a signal out here?

[Donald Trump]

T Mobile and US Cellular decided to merge.

[Mike Pesca]

So the network out here is huge.

[Connor Patrick Heffernan]

We're getting the same great signal as.

[Donald Trump]

The city and saving a boatload with all the benefits. Oh, and a five year price guarantee. Okay, here's those directions.

[Mike Pesca]

Actually, can you point us in the direction of a T Mobile store?

[Donald Trump]

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[Mike Pesca]

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[Donald Trump]

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[Mike Pesca]

Best mobile network based on analysis by Oogle of speed test intelligence data 2H 2025 bigger network. The combination of T Mobile's and US Cellular's network footprints will enhance the T Mobile network's coverage price guarantee on talk text and data exclusions like taxes and fees apply. See t mobile.com for details. It's Wednesday, February 4, 2026, from Peach Elections, it's the gist. I'm Mike Pesca and you probably heard that Donald Trump floated an idea about nationalizing elections. In other words, keeping the ability of the states to certify elections, taking that away from them. It's a crazy idea. It's a wrong idea. It's bad to propose it. Also, I'll give you a silver lining. It's never going to happen. It's quite insane. Now, I'm not saying that we should just ignore this idea because it is so wrong and crazy and also motivated by Donald Trump's wrong and crazy idea that the 2020 election was stolen. But if I give context of how this was proposed, maybe you'd think about the idea differently. Maybe you wouldn't. Maybe you just say it's so wrong and crazy we need to pay attention to it and be alarmed about it. But it was during the Dan Bongino comeback show final 19 minutes, an interview with Donald Trump and Dan Bongino asked a question. Well, it wasn't really a question. Was a little bit of a brag about how great he did with the FBI about cracking down on an aspect of immigration. I'm going to play the not question end of his statement that led into Donald Trump beginning his answer that included, we need to take away elections from about 15 states. Here we go. And this was a revolutionary approach. And the results speak for themselves. The lowest crime rates in modern US History.

[Donald Trump]

Well, we want one thing in Minnesota. We can get out of there really fast. We want their prisoners. They've got jails with murderers, drug lords, rapists. They've got jails with the worst. The worst people. And they come out.

[Mike Pesca]

Now, I'm gonna let it play a little bit because this answer winds up.

[Donald Trump]

Being six minutes long so bad. They look at you and they knife you up. You know, we had it in Washington. They're all gone, by the way. They're all gone. But.

[Mike Pesca]

And you might say six minutes is fairly long. But is it that long? Yes. If I talk for six minutes, you would say, is this the spiel? And indeed, it would be in the spiel. I will talk about some aspects of this and some aspects of Donald Trump and the FBI's read on Georgia. Check that out. I do recommend it.

[Donald Trump]

Understand, nobody could do the job that we've done. Nobody. There's nobody. They wouldn't. You know, they just go through a system. Right. You have to be very tough.

[Mike Pesca]

Look here, Donald Trump meanders to why we have to get the people out of Minnesota and how we want to just extract them from the jails. And then he talks about, well, here we could hear him saying, if we don't get him out, Republicans will never win another election.

[Donald Trump]

We have to get them out. And by the way, if Republicans don't get them out, you will never win another election. As a Republican, if you don't get these. These people are all pitted. So they vote and they make all this crap with the voting. Well, you can vote. You can do whatever you want. It's crazy. I mean, it's crazy how you can get these people to vote.

[Mike Pesca]

And eventually he gets to his claims that made all the news everywhere that about 15 states, specifically Georgia, should not be in charge of their own election.

[Donald Trump]

Every swing state. I wouldn't. The popular vote by millions. I want everything. These people were brought to our country to vote, and they vote illegally. And the, you know, amazing that the Republicans aren't tougher on it. The Republicans should say, we want to take over. We should take over the voting. The voting in at least many 15 places. The Republicans ought to nationalize the voting. We have states that are so crooked.

[Mike Pesca]

And then we get to.

[Donald Trump]

We have.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, I'll let it go, but I'm also skipping a little bit. I'm skipping to certain parts. Talks about women who might have cancer. She's 71, she's in jail. She was getting in the way of elections there.

[Donald Trump]

He says it, they put a woman in jail. Colorado put a woman in jail. A wonderful woman, 72 years old, had cancer because she was a voting inspector. She was in charge of a voting area and she saw boxes of votes come in. So she went over to check it. And they put her in jail for voter manipulation. And she's still in jail. And they better let her out fast.

[Mike Pesca]

In case you were wondering, during this proposal to amend the Constitution to nationalize elections, we got his analysis of who the good presidents were, who the bad.

[Donald Trump]

Presidents were, and we had some bad ones. I mean, look, Barack Hussein Obama, I call him the great divider that people couldn't stand. You mentioned his little bit on Jimmy.

[Mike Pesca]

Carter's failed mission to rescue the hostages.

[Donald Trump]

I mean, Jimmy Carter wasn't exactly the greatest. Jimmy Goddard didn't exactly have the hit on Venezuela that I remember his hits. They always turned out to be a disaster.

[Mike Pesca]

Trump's better on Venezuela than he is on Venezuela. And eventually, like I said, after six minutes, which we've condensed and fast forward and can't possibly bring to you due to the meandering nature, there is some other question. So what I'm saying is it is wrong and horrible for Donald Trump to have proposed this. But did he propose it? But did he just rip it? Did he meander his way into a proposal about the Constitution that's unconstitutional? Yes. Yes to all of those. And I'm not saying don't be alarmed, but be aware the provenance of so.

[Donald Trump]

Many of President Trump's grand ideas, like, unbelievable. And the nice thing about Venezuela, we're getting along great now with the government. We talked to him every single day. We took 50, 50 million barrels of oil. It's on his way right now to Houston to be refined. And we're going to help them a lot, and we're going to benefit by it also. It's going to be great. It's going to be an amazing place. You know, it was a great country 15 years ago that it went socialist. And I would say it didn't do.

[Mike Pesca]

Too well on the show today. I promise you that spiel. It's good spiel. It's a long spiel. It's longer than six minutes. And also, if you want to watch me do the spiel, a little bit of a variation on the spiel. I'm putting some of that content on Mike Pesca, that substack.com that'll be free for you guys. I have some. I say the word bullshit a lot in writing, more so than I say it in the spiel. I believe the writing gets. You know, I could think a little bit more and get piquant on some of my phrasing. But first, I am joined now by a guy who pitched me, as you will hear, a very winning pitch. Mike, interview me. And as he was doing this pitch, Connor Patrick Heffernan was lifting crazy heavy rocks and speaking, as you will hear, in an Irish accent because. And this wasn't a put on because that's who Connor Heffernan is and that's what Connor Heffernan does. But he also is an expert on what is called physical culture. The author of When Fitness Went Global, Connor Patrick Heffernan. Up next, The gist is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. Hi, I'm Chris Gethard and I'm very excited to tell you about Beautiful Anonymous, a podcast where I talk to random people on the phone. I tweet out a phone number. Thousands of people try to call. Talk to one of them.

[Donald Trump]

They stay anonymous. I can't hang up.

[Mike Pesca]

That's all the rules. I never know what's going to happen. We get serious ones. I've talked with meth dealers on their way to prison. I've talked to people who survived mass shootings. Crazy funny ones.

[Donald Trump]

I talked to a guy with a.

[Mike Pesca]

Goose laugh, somebody who dresses up as a pirate on the weekends. I never know what's gonna happen. It's a great show. Subscribe today. Beautiful Anonymous. I get a lot of pitches. Sometimes they come in the form of a book catalog. Otherwise I'll get a personal pitch. Hi Mike, longtime listener and I've written a book about the crustaceans of Upper Volta. And I don't usually bite, though the crustaceans are beautiful this time of year. Then I got a pitch from perhaps a listener, perhaps someone who is just angling. Connor Heffernan. And included in the pitch was him lifting tremendous amounts of weight. Stones, really. Him lifting stones and so my interest was piqued. He is an expert on what's called physical culture. He's written a book called When Fitness Went Global. The Rise of Physical culture in the 19th century. And I have to say that the stones were so compelling, I got over the fact that I didn't know what the phrase physical culture meant. Did it mean just things? Things that happened? Anything other than an idea? No. It means something like exercise, bodybuilding, working out muscles. And this is where the stones come in. And this is where Connor Heffernan comes in. Hello, Connor. Welcome to the Gist.

[Connor Patrick Heffernan]

I knew the stones would work. I am a longtime listener as well, but I knew the stones that hook you. And then we could talk about physical culture, which is like the birth of our modern fitness environment.

[Mike Pesca]

So tell me about the stones. How big are they? And is the challenge of them that they weigh a lot, 90 kilos, or that they're just unwieldy?

[Connor Patrick Heffernan]

I mean, both. So historic stone lifting, which is the picture that I sent you, and I go stone lifting with my son. So it's a family pastime. It's not just for me. It's for we.

[Mike Pesca]

Do they go pebble lifting? Do you build them up from stone to rock to boulder?

[Connor Patrick Heffernan]

So this is awful because oftentimes historic stones are in graveyards because men and women would have lifted them at funerals and funeral games, etc. So I have to go around graveyards to find a stone that my son can lift while I lift the historic stone. Now, I never desecrate a grave. This is a horrible way to start an interview, but.

[Mike Pesca]

No, no, it's fine. We're here talking to vampire Connor Hefferny.

[Connor Patrick Heffernan]

Gravedigger guests are a new phenomenon in the podcast game. No, but, you know, he starts with this, and in time, he'll join me with the big stone that people have lifted for hundreds of years. It's respectable.

[Mike Pesca]

Is it really a good exercise or is it more? Well, certainly what they had. But are you Maxima. Are you maxing? Are you maxing your gains, Connor?

[Connor Patrick Heffernan]

So this is why I love stone lifting, right? So I did natural bodybuilding. I did powerlifting. I did weightlifting. I got sick of counting steps, calories, REPs, you know, etc. Stone lifting, you go out. These stones can weigh anywhere from 60 to 250 kilos. It's horrible. It's unwieldy. They cut you and scrape you as you pull them up. But it's fun. Remember when things used to be fun and we weren't looks maxing weight Maxing, you know, reaching our potential, etc. It's like, this is fun and I want to try it.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay. 250 kilos, isn't that £450? How do you possibly get that above your head?

[Connor Patrick Heffernan]

Well, I don't know. Strong men. Stronger men than I do. I clap them and I get. I hit the little, like, button on social media, but I'm aware they exist. I once tried to lift one and nearly blew my back out. So, you know, humbling somewhat.

[Mike Pesca]

Lift with your legs, Research with your legs. So when you lifted the stone of the 19th century, what did you find? Or first, what questions were you asking and searching for? Because I know this is your academic discipline, but every book has a question they want answered. What was yours?

[Connor Patrick Heffernan]

Why do people lift weights? Why do people train? And actually, how long have they done it? And what I found is, you know, with stone lifting, that goes back thousands of years, there's a stone in Greece and Olympia where they held the ancient Olympic Games, which has written on it, bay, I lifted me overhead with one hand. And then you can go to Scotland and those stones from hundreds of years ago, Ireland, Iceland, the Basque region, India, Pakistan, you know, it's a worldwide phenomenon. So people have always lifted stones to show off their strength. Listen, ego is a trans historical phenomenon, but also to celebrate strength, celebrate life, honor the dead. But then something happened in the 19th century where we stopped lifting stones and started lifting barbells and dumbbells, started going to the gym, started doing calisthenics, gymnastics, watching our diets, watching our weight, etc. So my book and my question which I write to ask is, how did we go from like, pre modern, informal forms of strength and fitness and wellness to regimented, maximizing our potential, maximizing our, our ways, you know, sets and reps, 30 minutes, 40 minutes, etc. Why did that happen?

[Mike Pesca]

Yes, and it would. It strikes me that it's very obvious that ancient or not even ancient, but just older civilizations, especially ones that depended on warriors being able and physical labor, would want to measure that, valorize that, and measure that is why the Olympic motto is situous altius 40s fortis, meaning stronger. It's right there. One of the three things that are meant to be measured when you talk about the physical prowess of a person. But you're right, when you really think about it, why did someone. I know esthetics are a big part of it, but how did we decide it's not just the strongest guy, is the guy who lifts the heaviest thing once? How do we Decide it was maybe the guy who looked strongest or the guy who could list lift a somewhat heavy thing the most times. That's interesting, right?

[Connor Patrick Heffernan]

And you start to get that shift from, like, functional to. There's no S word, there's no F word that means sexy. Esthetics. We'll go functional to aesthetics. And what happens is in the 1880s and 1890s, you get the rise of physical culture. The thing I've dedicated my life to for some reason, and that's strong men and strong women. And they're doing music hall and vaudeville shows where, listen, you'd go to a theater in the US or mainland Europe, and there'd be a whole bill of cards. You'd have someone singing dirty limericks, someone reciting a poem. Then you'd have the strongman, a strong woman. They'd lift a cannon, lift a bank vault, lift a horse, lift a member of the audience, challenge a member of the audience, etc, etc. And they start to make fitness entertaining, right? But then they start to become celebrities. And you get an individual called Eugen Sandow. He's ripped, he's lean, he's muscular, he's got a mustache. And he is the aesthetics king of the early 1900s. And he really makes that shift from, I don't care who's strong. I want a six pack and be able to do a backflip like Sandow.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, yeah. By the way, just a note, if I was around, then I tell the strongman to learn a dirty limerick, then they could be a twofer, right? Then they could be a double threat. So Sandow, who's in your book, and I didn't even know if it was pronounced Sandow or Sando, like the ballet slash prison. Leopold Bloom had him in Ulysses, right? He's. He shows up all throughout history and literature and put him in perspective, even more transcendent than Schwarzenegger is now even more central to the idea of physical culture than Jane Fonda was in the 80s.

[Connor Patrick Heffernan]

Yes, and I'll do. Yes, and we'll do some improv here, Mike. Okay, so, yes, and let's consider the culture. Okay, so did Arnold Schwarzenegger have a magazine empire? No. Did Arnold Schwarzenegger have his own medical institute? No. Did Arnold Schwarzenegger travel around the U.S. north America, New Zealand, Australia, Asia, South Africa, England, mainland Europe? Well, yeah, but he did it when there were planes. Sandow did it in 1900, where there was no planes and you're traveling by boat. Did Schwarzenegger train British troops for war? Not that I'm aware of. Did Schwarzenegger help to revolutionize how people thought about bodies? Yes, but Sandow did it in a much greater way. So Sandow is more central to Schwartz, to fitness, than Schwarzenegger or Fonda because he's the first. He sets up a magazine empire. He sells books around the world. When people talk about the perfect body in the early 1900s, they're talking about Sandow. The Natural History Museum in London commissions a bust of Sandow's body to show later generations the perfect physique. We know that because Arnold Schwarzenegger has a bust of that statue in one of his homes. So does the British Library or the British Museum in London. So Sandow helps to revolutionize this idea of health and fitness, but also muscularity. But he's telling people you can cure illness through physical culture. And what's more, I set up an institute in central London where you can come to me and be cured of a variety of diseases. And curing cancer, including cancer through exercise. He's selling magazines and supplements and children's toys and corsets in 1908 and 1909. So he creates a worldwide fitness empire before Instagram, before social media, before television. He's in one of the first ever films recorded by Thomas Edison. You can see it in the Library of Congress. It's a 30 second clip of Sandow posing. So he is the first and he has to popularize it. And he shows up, he said, leopold Bloom. In certain countries, a Sandow is a topless vest. You know, so he becomes this kind of ideal of fitness and creates a zeal for Fitness in 1900, not 1970.

[Mike Pesca]

So what parts of his advice or regimen can we look back on now? And a lot of this is still contested. That was getting it right. And what parts were, weren't. And then maybe. This is a terrible multipart question. Could you break down the parts where he was, quote, unquote wrong or, you know, suboptimal based on what we know now and which were understandable in which were just charlatan ism and trying to steal some money?

[Connor Patrick Heffernan]

You know, I'm a cynic. We've been talking for like 12 minutes. You're like, this Irishman is cynical. And that's good because it's true. So. And this actually ties in with a guest from a couple of episodes ago who's talking about, you know, the six. The six health rules. And it's simple and you know them, and we don't need to make them sexier than that.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes, yes.

[Connor Patrick Heffernan]

So With Sandow, you know, he would talk about moderation. He would say, you don't need to train to excess. You have to be regular with your training, etc. Some basic tenants which still exist today. You don't need to push to extremes in health. Now let's talk about Sandow being a charlatan. Sandow, and this is my favorite thing about him, said, you don't need to lift heavy weights to produce a body like mine. So Sandow built a very muscular, lean, and athletic body lifting heavy weights. But he came at a time when people didn't really go to the gym. They didn't know what weight training was. Physicians would tell them that lifting heavy weights is dangerous. So to overcome that, Sandow sold a lightweight dumbbell, weighed 5 pounds, no more, no less. He said, if you just squeeze my dumbbell super duper tight and concentrate with all your force and might, you can build a body like mine. You don't need to lift heavy weights. When I sell you my dumbbell, I'll sell you a chart. You can track your measurements against mine, because Santa has a perfect body, of course. And build a body like mine. There's another lie coming in, but I will pass back to you.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, I was just gonna say, at first I was on board, this guy seems like a charlatan. But you didn't tell me he had a chart. I mean, come on, man had a chart.

[Connor Patrick Heffernan]

How much more science does someone need?

[Mike Pesca]

So I was like, there's no way you're gonna be able to do this without a chart. So funny at a chart. Okay, so this me that he was selling a program. He was selling a lifestyle.

[Connor Patrick Heffernan]

He was selling a lifestyle which was patented to him. And we know that because when other people sold a similar dumbbell, he sued them into penury. There's one man, Yosef Salahi, who's Austro Hungarian. Sandow sues him into bankruptcy. Ten years later, people throw a fundraiser for salai, and Sandow donates money because he's talking about, you know, well, I feel bad for the guy. It's like you sued him into bankruptcy. But apart from that, he also is a sponsor for a supplement, early protein supplement called Plasmon. Sandow says, I consume nothing but Plasmon for one month. Nothing, nothing else. Just plasma and water. I got stronger, you know, I had more energy. I've never felt healthier. We can see a sort of script or blueprint for the fitness industry emerging, you know, during this time.

[Mike Pesca]

Did he do a documentary called Plasmon Size Me.

[Connor Patrick Heffernan]

Bravo, sir. We need to get. We need to give that breath, you know, the air to breathe in, because that was wonderful. But, you know, he's selling these supplements and he's also telling people, hey, I think I'm gonna live to a hundred because physical culture is so scientific, I'm going to overcome the bounds of human mortality. He died in his mid-50s from either brain aneurysm or syphilis, depending on who you ask.

[Mike Pesca]

Ah, syphilis picker poison. Yeah. How would he have gotten that? I've seen pictures of him lifting barbells nude. Maybe he took the ideas of physical culture just beyond the aesthetic.

[Connor Patrick Heffernan]

I mean, potentially. And David Chapman has a wonderful book called Sandow the Magnificent, which deals into this. But what's really interesting about Sandow is, yeah, he's the celebrity, you know, he's the Arnold Schwarzenegger of his time. But he's not the only one in the US Because Sandow is mainly based in Great Britain. You have Bernard McFadden. Yes, I said Bernard. Two Rs at the end because he thought it sounded like a lion's roar. Bernard. And Bernard McFadden had physical culture magazine. He had millions of readers in the early 1900s. He's anti medicine. He will attack the American medical establishment. He'll say that raw milk will cure all, that you can fast away disease. I'm of course not drawing any parallels to the present age whatsoever. And he is seen as a health nut. There's a wonderful book written in the 40s about McFadden, and it's called the Nut among the Berries. And, you know, but you have McFadden, you have people like Apollo in Scotland, you have Arthur Saxon, Katie Sandwina, you have this new generation of strong men and women who aren't just seen as athletes or performers or celebrities, they're seen as health experts. And the people that you consult to get leaner, more perfect, live longer, live pain free, etc.

[Mike Pesca]

Did, did Sandow have to convince or any, or Bernard or any of these other fellows have to convince the public that this was a physical ideal or was it, is it innate in people to look at low body fat, muscular development, etc. And just to want that, Because I've heard and I've read in your book and other places a lot of supposition that, you know, whatever we define as unattainable, if it's in times of paucity, maybe the Ruben esque figure will be more, more we're more drawn to. And if it's in times like now of abundance, Maybe the leaner figure will be more the thing that we want to attain. So how much of what these early physical culture specimens, how much of what they were doing was just tapping into innate desires of the public, and how much was defining the public's appetites?

[Connor Patrick Heffernan]

It's a great question because we're trained from a very young age as to what is the perfect body. Mike, you can see behind me, I have an early run of wrestling figures that are all Hasbro wrestling figures, ripped, lean, muscular, played with them as a child in the 19th century. People are told from a very early age, from really the 1810s, that Greco Roman body ideals represent perfection. So we're thinking about ancient Greek statues, Renaissance paintings that are trying to emulate the Greeks, the Statue of David the Thinker, etc. They're cued from a very early age that ancient Greece and ancient Rome body standards represent perfection. So when you see someone like Sandow, his posing is not like a modern bodybuilder. He's not doing a most muscular pose, a crab pose. He's not doing a front double bicep pose. He's recreating old Greek statues. He's recreating old poses. So you have that mental map in your mind, okay, ancient Greece, ancient Rome. This is, you know, the perfect body. Oh, and here is this, you know, mustachioed man who is recreating those images. So they use ancient Greek and ancient Roman poses to kind of cue people in that way. But then they also bring the medical field on board as well. Sandow will say to doctors, well, measure me, measure my muscles. Come inspect my body. What do you think? He will go to America and there's a gymnast called Dudley Allen Sargent who measures thousands of men and women. And he'll measure famous boxers, celebrities, athletes as well as students. And Sargent says, Sandow is the most perfectly developed specimen that I have ever seen. And Sandow then obviously gets to slap that on all of his logos. That's his endorsement. That's him done. So they're queuing people up using ancient Greece and ancient Rome, and we still see that today. And then they're also using ideas of medical perfection and doctors promoting them in the same way.

[Mike Pesca]

And we'll be back tomorrow with the conclusion of the Rock Tosser Connor Patrick Heffernan. Also a little super bowl betting guide case you're into lifting heavy things. The gist is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. And now the spiel. Two weeks ago, Donald Trump blustered on over to Europe, where he talked about wanting Greenland. At the time, we here in America took the bluster pretty seriously. In Europe, they were quite freaked out by it. But it turned out to be just bluster. And perhaps we were reminded once more that Donald Trump talks. Well, I was going to say a big game, but an outlandish, hard to believe story. And if taken seriously, it would be quite disturbing. I mean, even as the meanderings of a dotard, it is troubling enough, but in reality, words are not actions. Yet it was in the same speech that Donald Trump's words about a US Domestic issue were largely ignored, dismissed as their There he goes again. But this, this was the one that had actual follow up. He talked about the rigged election. Ah yes, the 2020 rigged election. Fabled in story and song, in which he cited it's a war that should.

[Donald Trump]

Have never started, and it wouldn't have started if the 2020 US presidential election weren't rigged. It was a rigged election. Everybody now knows that they found out. People will soon be prosecuted for what they did. It's probably breaking news, but it should be it was a rigged election. Can't have rigged elections.

[Mike Pesca]

But after seven days, one week later, that perhaps off the cuff, definitely off the reservation. Content and Quotation Guess what happened? Tulsi Gabbard, whose remit is mostly foreign threats, went on a raid at a Fulton County, Georgia election facility, and there was Donald Trump on the phone with Tulsi Gabbard. Trump has focused on Georgia for a long time. Back in 2020, in another bout of blathering that we thought would amount to nothing, Trump laid out some of his grievances, hedged or centered on the fact that when votes were counted, sometimes what happens is that large Democratic counties go overwhelmingly for the Democrat and it's registered all of a sudden. So back in 2020, he talked about how it's 6:31am Very early in the morning.

[Donald Trump]

It well, our nation's greatest political professionals were calling to congratulate me on our victory. Then suddenly everything started to disappear. Everything started to change. The vote counting abruptly stopped in multiple states. In the middle of the night, a series of massive and statistically inconceivable vote dumps overturned the results in state after state. At 6:31am Very early in the morning, Michigan suddenly reported 147,224 votes, 94% for Biden, 6% for Trump. At 4:42am, Wisconsin reported 143,279 votes, almost all of them for Biden. A similar massive drop of ballots happened In Georgia at 1:34am Again, almost all of these votes for Biden, these gigantic and ridiculously one sided spikes were miraculously just enough to push Joe Biden into the lead in all of the key swing states.

[Mike Pesca]

So that speech was given two weeks before January 6th. And perhaps we had by then forgotten about his efforts to overturn the election on a state by state basis because the crowd took his bluster as a call to arms, invading the Capitol and trying to overturn certification of the results on a federal basis. Now, of course there is no feasible way to do this mean that it's just not practical for a mob of figurative, pitchforked, literal, zip tied wielding yahoos to force our elected officials to cast a vote. And that vote will stick. I mean, elections aren't national. That's what I mean. It's not just that the plan couldn't work because if people were compelled to vote at the point of a, you know, buffalo horned head, that vote wouldn't count. I also mean that the certification of the election is just a formality, the consequence or flowing from which ain't much. Elections are run on a state level, but that is to something that Donald Trump is now criticizing. So you have the FBI raid, you have Donald Trump saying there should be national elections, and you have the replay of his greatest fits, sorry, greatest hits. And it all adds up to something troubling. I'm not going to say it's not, but I am at DEFCON 3. That's pretty good DEFCON because sometimes people mistake the 5 for the 1 that's the worst DEFCON or the 1 that's most serious. But 3, 3 is where I am. It's also right in the middle. Meaning I'm not sanguine, I'm not dismissive. This guy in his speech or the amount of his speech that slithers past whatever adhesive has been called into service to assist his dentures. This guy would do lot of things that are not just unconstitutional, but are autocratic or dictatorial. Pick your word. How about this? They're just plain wrong. I think Donald Trump would do some wrong things, but that's if he were allowed to do them. Will he be able to do them? I think not. And this is why my DEFCON remains right in the middle. My defcon in the Middle my confidence pretty high in the Constitution because we would have to change the Constitution to get elections decided on a national basis. You know, Article 1, Section 4, Clause 1, the Times, place and manner of holding elections for senators or representatives shall be prescribed in each state by the legislature thereof. But the Congress may at time by law make or alter such regulations, except as to the places of choosing senators. Okay. Even more so than the usual case that it's hard to change the Constitution and that Congress hates changing the Constitution, must never change the Constitution. It's especially hard for Congress to ever change anything that has to do with how to get elected to Congress because everyone in Congress asked to say, let us change the way to get elected to Congress has benefited from the old way to get you elected. And lawmakers never say, oh yeah, that's a good idea. Let's undo the very thing that made it make us lawmakers, they kick it to the states or study it for the future. Blue ribbon panels. Blue ribbon panels are often called into play. You know, these rules seem pretty darn fair to a guy like me. People in Congress, Senators will say when they're talking about rules that made them senators and people in Congress. And for the record, state elections are a good thing because like cross breeding in species, they add more robustness.

[Connor Patrick Heffernan]

Right.

[Mike Pesca]

If you want a purebred election or an election that is all centered, say, on the federal level, in my analogy, more ripe for corruption. Here's a side note. Do you remember a few years ago when Yara Bolsonaro tried to pull a Trump in Brazil and he saw to Buffalo or cover his way into electoral office there? But there was one main federal judge and there was a federal Council of electors. And many of the same commentators who are now quite agitated about Trump advocating for national elections here looked at Brazil and said, ooh, I wish we could have something like that. I'm not faulting them. I'm just reminding you that whoever controls the federal government has a lot of power. We should maybe worry about giving them more. Okay. In America, the prospect of this kind of federal body possibly controlled by Donald Trump presents itself quite easily as having many, many downsides. But there is something else to say about this idea that we should very much worry about Donald Trump using the FBI or the DOJ to do his bidding. So, yes, of course, it is quite troubling. It's wrong. It's bad. What did I say? Trump will probably do bad things if allowed. Probably. I shouldn't have said probably. And yes, these two institutions are being denigrated. More and more each day. But why do we assume that using the DOJ or FBI to bring an investigation based on the voter records of Georgia will help Trump just because Trump thinks it will help Trump? Follow me here. The theory is the assumption is best put on a recent episode of the Daily where the reporter Devlin Barrett said that just bringing in the FBI investigation raises the specter of real wrongdoing. Think for a minute about what an FBI investigation is. By its very nature, an FBI investigation sows doubt and so suspicion about the people being investigated. The President has been sowing doubt and suspicion about elections for years when he was out of power, right? And now what you're seeing is that now that he's in power, he can use the levers of government. He can use the mechanics of something like the FBI to sow that doubt. And so that suspicion and that doubt and suspicion becomes the official posture of the government. Well, sure, back when the FBI and DOJ weren't controlled and corrupted by Donald Trump. I mean, not totally, but enough so that he has been using and abusing these bureaus, this department, abnormally, and people have noticed. So I will now raise this as a possibility because he has so denigrated the bureau of the DOJ and because America has already decided that the 2020 election wasn't stolen, and that is because the 2020 election wasn't stolen, that this could have much less of an effect than if, as Devlin Barrett was saying, the FBI were the normal FBI doing normal FBI things. There's a couple of to back up my supposition. One is that the more candidates in previous elections, the more they back the idea of stop this deal or the rigged election. So we're talking Republican candidates, many of which did say yes, have questions about electoral integrity. But the real die hards on this died hard at the polls. The big election deniers, even in places where Republicans really could have won did terribly. Carrie Lake and Doug Mastriano. We just saw another example in Tarrant County, Texas. Lee Wambsgans, he was one. So look at how the public reacted also to the prosecutions of Comey and Letitia James. James Comey, Letitia James, the two James's. Okay, how did the public react? Yet the public, most of the average person doesn't know, right? And a lot of the people who are highly invested, like the MAGA people, they think these people should be strung up. But in general, the prosecutions fell apart and they embarrassed the Trump administration. Not just in the eyes of people predisposed to think the Trump administration was embarrassed. I mean, the Department of Justice and these charges correlate to the public, including, ooh, where there is smoke, there is fire. If anything, it reminded the public that Donald Trump has his pants on fire and underneath his knickers. In a twist about an issue over which the public breaks with him, the public does not believe the election was stolen. A prosecution that is not going to introduce actual evidence that the election was stolen. Again, because I must say this, the election was not stolen. And it's not going to do anything except raise the salience of a bad issue from President Trump. If anyone should understand that an investigation, or even an investigation followed by charges, indictment, a trial, a conviction, that none of that necessarily helps the prosecution side, the person who understands that should be Donald Trump. Also, please, I feel I must add this. These days, do not mistake my analysis for excusing anything Trump did or anything Trump would like to do. I do think it is unbelievably horrible and serious that a president would even try to do this. But since that president is Donald Trump, you know he would. He's told you over and over again. And my analysis is just to emphasize I don't think the attempt is going to help him. I think it's much more likely that there will be blowback because the American people do not believe this claim, because there is nothing to believe. And I further think the American people have a great understanding of Trump's showmanship. Slash, bombastic, slash bullshitting in general. The regular voter excuses it. I mean, maybe more than they should. But what do they do? What really action items do they have when he starts bullshitting, Right. Someone in the commentariat, they have much more incentive to clamor on and bang the table about it because, you know, they also have. They can get more exercise. Maybe they're more invested in an election running. Well, if they were a former official. Also, many commentators stand to gain financially by banging the table in this kind of way that a regular person doesn't. They get you to watch their TV shows or podcasts or substacks. But on this issue, the rigged election, if it's normally just background bullshit, well, then Trump could get by. But if he makes it salient in your face bullshit, I don't think he can. And that's it for today's show. Corey Wara produces the gist. Kathleen Sykes runs the Gist list. Jeff Craig runs our media. We're looking for a great booker. A couple of you have suggested yourselves or friends. Email us if you want to book great guests for the show and other Peach Fish entities. We're at the gistkeepeska.com who's monitoring that email and pretty much everything else. It's COO of peach fish Productions, formerly Chief Bullshit Officer. She's moved into the realm of the actual Michelle Pesco in Peru. G Peru DO Peru and thanks for listening.

[Donald Trump]

Stop wasting time scrolling through endless clickbait.

[Mike Pesca]

Social media and emails trying to keep up with the news. Instead, listen to all the news you need in just 10 minutes. Welcome.

[Donald Trump]

Welcome to the Newsworthy.

[Mike Pesca]

The Newsworthy podcast makes it faster, easier.

[Donald Trump]

And more enjoyable to get unbiased news on the go.

[Connor Patrick Heffernan]

It helps us navigate the news without.

[Donald Trump]

Feeling overwhelmed, even when my time is limited. So much detail and information in 10 minutes. Listen now by searching the Newsworthy in your podcast app or go to thenewsworthy.

[Connor Patrick Heffernan]

Com.