The Gist (Oct 14, 2025)

Episode Title: Cory Doctorow: Enshittification: Why Everything Suddenly Got Worse and What to Do About It
Host: Mike Pesca
Guest: Cory Doctorow

Episode Overview

In this episode, Mike Pesca welcomes Cory Doctorow—author, activist, and renowned digital rights advocate—to discuss his latest book, Enshittification: Why Everything Suddenly Got Worse and What to Do About It. The episode tackles the declining quality and user experience of digital platforms and devices, delving into the mechanisms that lead to the so-called "enshittification" of products and services. With witty, incisive exchanges, Pesca and Doctorow explore topics like right to repair, interoperability, consumer rights, and why seemingly every tech company or service becomes worse over time.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Right to Repair, Interoperability, and Corporate Lock-In

[09:04] - [09:57]

• Pesca opens with a riff on universally hated companies and products:
  “I think Ticketmaster and your printers are the two least popular things on earth. I know everyone makes fun of Nickelback, but I think if a politician were just to run on inkjet reform, that politician would... gain like six points in the polls.”
  — Mike Pesca (09:04)

• Doctorow highlights the legal tactics companies use to block competition:

  • Printer manufacturers block third-party ink ("right to print").
  • Apple prohibits other app stores.
  • State-level right-to-repair laws are the most successful, especially when broken into sector-specific campaigns (automotive, powered wheelchairs).
  • Breaking big issues into smaller, targeted legislative battles undermines corporate opposition coalitions.

• The tragic effects of such corporate practices:

  • For example, with wheelchairs, two private equity-owned companies monopolize the market, leading to breakdowns and delayed repairs, which can be disastrous for users.

2. The Societal Impact of Repair & Consumer Choice

[14:07] - [15:06]

• Doctorow illustrates the broader impact:
  “Landfilling a ton of e-waste creates one job, and repairing a ton of e-waste creates 150 community jobs.”
  — Cory Doctorow (14:17)

• Repair work is local:
  It's good for community economies, keeps businesses close to consumers, and extends product lifespans.

• Apple's recycling "scam":

  • Shreds iPhones rather than allowing parts to re-enter the repair market.
  • Microscopic Apple logos on components mean used parts can be seized under trademark law if re-imported.

• Legal mechanisms are exploited to protect profits at the expense of consumers and community businesses.

3. The Nonsense of 'Tarnishment' and Critique of IP Laws

[16:43] - [20:11]

• Pesca questions the legitimacy of “tarnishment” in trademark law:
  “So are there legitimate...reasons for tarnishment laws in general?”
  — Mike Pesca (16:43)

• Doctorow distinguishes trademark from copyright and criticizes 'tarnishment':

  • Trademarks protect consumers from being deceived by imposters.
  • Tarnishment does not protect consumers—it's about companies shielding their brands from criticism or negative associations, not preventing genuine confusion.

• Memorable analogy:
  “Tarnishment is somebody, like, puts a Pepsi logo on a little flag and sticks it in all the dog turds in town. So that whenever you think of Pepsi, you think of dog turds, right?”
  — Cory Doctorow (18:27)

• Critique:
  Government should not intervene solely to protect profits:
  “I just don't think the government should step in to defend your profits. Like, that's kind of your job.”
  — Cory Doctorow (19:12)

4. The "Enshittification" Process Explained—The Facebook Case Study

[21:19] - [27:21]

• Doctorow outlines the three acts of enshittification, using Facebook as an example:
  Stage 1: Delight the end-users

  • Facebook attracted users with promises: no spying, only show what you ask to see.

  Stage 2: Lock-in and exploit the business customers

  • Once users are locked in, Facebook starts favoring publishers and advertisers—algorithmically inserting their content, allowing ad targeting.

  Stage 3: Squeeze publishers/advertisers while degrading user experience

  • Ads become more expensive, less effective, and more fraudulent.
  • Publishers must give away more content, but then Facebook throttles link visibility, ultimately channeling all traffic and revenue through itself.

• Memorable summary:
  “Now the platform is a pile of shit. And sometimes people leave even though they're locked in. ... Mark Zuckerberg one morning like arises from his sarcophagus and says, hearken to me brothers and sisters, I’ve had a revelation—instead, we’ll all become legless, sexless, low-polygon, heavily surveilled cartoon characters in the Metaverse. ... And that’s inshittification. It’s a tragedy in three acts.”
  — Cory Doctorow (26:23)

• Pesca's skeptical interjection:
  He suggests that users willingly trade privacy for free services, but Doctorow counters:
  User “revealed preferences” don't reflect true choice when there are no alternatives.

5. The Myth of Consumer Choice & Policy Constraints

[27:21] - [29:55]

• Doctorow rebuts the 'users don’t care about privacy' myth:
  • Over half of web users install ad blockers, the largest consumer boycott in history.
  • When Apple let users block Facebook tracking, 96% opted out.
  • True choice is blocked by legal/policy barriers—e.g., Digital Millennium Copyright Act criminalizes reverse-engineering many app-based ad trackers, so users can’t block ads on apps.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Facebook’s evolution:
  “In stage one of inshittification, firms are good to their end users, but they find a way to lock those end users in.”
  — Cory Doctorow (21:19)

• On Apple’s recycling:
  “Apple has this very weird scam for this... They engrave microscopic Apple logos on sub assemblies...and then...complaints that by re importing parts...you are committing this very obscure trademark violation called tarnishment.”
  — Cory Doctorow (15:34)

• On local economies and repair:
  “Landfilling a ton of e waste creates one job, and repairing a ton of e waste creates 150 community jobs.”
  — Cory Doctorow (14:17)

• Doctorow’s summary of platform decay:
  “It’s a tragedy in three acts."
  — Cory Doctorow (27:21)

• Pesca on consumer tradeoffs:
  “Their revealed preference is that they will turn themselves into the product if they get some free services.”
  — Mike Pesca (27:39)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Right to repair & interoperability insights: 09:04 – 13:11
• Community impacts of repair: 14:08 – 15:06
• Apple’s part-shredding & legal shenanigans: 15:34 – 16:43
• IP law, ‘tarnishment,’ and consumer protection: 16:43 – 20:11
• Definition and stages of “enshittification” (Facebook): 21:19 – 27:21
• Debate over consumer choice and privacy: 27:21 – 29:55

Episode Tone

• Smart, energetic, and at times wryly cynical.
• Doctorow brings dense, articulate advocacy.
• Pesca remains a skeptical but engaged interviewer, pushing back in spots for clarity and nuance.

If You Haven’t Listened...

This episode delivers a punchy, engaging exploration of why beloved platforms become hated, how corporations rig the rules, and why regulatory activism (like right to repair and interoperability) matter. Whether it’s through tales of wheelchair repair monopolies or Doctorow’s vivid, irreverent language about Facebook, listeners get both a crash course in digital consumer rights and plenty of quotable, thought-provoking moments.

Recommended for:

• Anyone frustrated with ever-worsening tech experiences
• Listeners interested in digital rights, legislation, or consumer advocacy
• Fans of Cory Doctorow’s trenchant critiques and Mike Pesca’s lively interviewing style